Immatures

[Macgregor]

Seeing Rock Doctors two point got me to thinking. How has your luck been finding immatures. Mine hasn't been great. In approx. 20 years hunting I've only taken one which was a perfect two point. The funny thing was I went to an all bull area so I wouldn't have to look for immatures only when I got him. I'm sure I've seen others but didn't have time to get a shot off or time to be sure it didn't have that third point on each side before it buggered off. In that 20 years most of my hunting has been with my dad and he's shot three one of which was a perfect spike with about 12 inch spikes on each side. The other two were 2x3s. I have found several small bulls that were shot as immatures only to be left as they had 1 or 2 to many points but that's a whole other discussion. Be curious to hear your responses.

[Caveman]

Since 1988 I have taken 12 immature bulls, a few before it became manditory because they were the first bulls I saw, but I'd I've had some pretty exceptional luck at finding them. Last year I went to Chetwyn looking for the Tri-palm or ten point and what do I come out with............You guessed it!
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c247/cavemn94/100_0542.jpg

[300 wsm]

man 12 immatures thats crazy i havent seen one during huntin season they are all big but its a good thing someone usually gets drawn for any bull back home except this year

[Mckinney Creek Adventures]

Ive shot 4 in the last 5 years. I work hard at finding them, and I think genetics definitely plays a role in where you find them. Some areas, I find no two points, but do see 3 + points. Then I have another spot where I have shot 3 spike/forks in an area <1 km radius. If sure helps to have a honey hole or two to find these guys.

MCA

[ratherbefishin]

what is your bulls seen to immatures ratio?I find this a bit of an anonomoly-because spikes are about 60% of the deer harvest in the open season,and one would wonder if immatures were not legal to harvest-there would be more mature bulls.Another factor I fail to understand is after so many years of ''management''-theoretically to increase the moose population-coupled with a significant decline in hunters-you would think the moose populations would be considerably higher than they were years ago under ''open'' bull seasons.During that time we have had a large increase in logging-which again should have produced more browse-and higher moose populations

[Fisher-Dude]

what is your bulls seen to immatures ratio?I find this a bit of an anonomoly-because spikes are about 60% of the deer harvest in the open season,and one would wonder if immatures were not legal to harvest-there would be more mature bulls.Another factor I fail to understand is after so many years of ''management''-theoretically to increase the moose population-coupled with a significant decline in hunters-you would think the moose populations would be considerably higher than they were years ago under ''open'' bull seasons.During that time we have had a large increase in logging-which again should have produced more browse-and higher moose populations

There are a couple of points here (no pun intended!). Firstly, only about 40% of first year bulls will be spike/forks, the rest will have three or more points per side. Secondly, I haven't seen any scientific data that suggests that recruitment from spike/forks being unharvested would make a difference to the moose population. Thirdly, while some logging is beneficial for producing moose browse, harvesting in old growth spruce does disrupt moose habitat, as this is typically where traditional breeding arenas are found, as well as travel corridors.

Moose populations are generally considered "stable" at this point, and target bull cow ratios of 30:100 appear to have been met in most areas. Increased predation is recognized as a factor in many regions where wolf seasons have been extended this year (except region 8 :mad: ). First Nations harvest is an unknown at this time, and hopefully we can make some progress in this area with harvest stats.

The spike/fork rule is in place to allow some GOS hunting opportunity on our moose populations in some regions. Most of the province COULD support a GOS on moose and would do wonders to increase hunter recruitment and retention, as moose are a primary family food animal and close to 97% of BC's hunters are meat hunters. LEH is, unfortunately, a crutch used by conservative game managers who tend to rely on harvest stats to judge populations instead of physical inventories of animals.

My own belief is that moose could be opened up province wide in a GOS that would spread hunting pressure out to people's "backyards" and attract and retain hunters. Imagine shooting a mature moose an hour from home! Whether game managers who have a big fear of "DiMarche-ism" will do it is another thing altogether.

PS - I have shot one spike/fork in the past 10 years, and it was a 2x5 gimp that was 4 years old. I've seen a handful more that didn't present a shot or that I wasn't 10,000% sure were legal. I've also seen a couple of gimp mature bulls that qualified.

PPS - No such thing as "Immatures" in the regulations. The correct term is "spike/fork" bulls to clear up confusion as to whether a 2 x 15 bull is legal (it is).

[Caveman]

I believe the actual statistical numbers are 65% will already be three or more points and the reasoning behind allowing the spike/fork season is to have a GOS, which can be extended to allow the opportunities to the guy that can't travel. A mature bull will service in the neighbourhood of 6-8 cows where the spike will only service 2-3 cows, which should mean that there will be less dry cows through the winter. Therefore controlling the mature bull harvest is important to maintain to ensure a stable manageable population is to remain.

[Caveman]

man 12 immatures thats crazy i havent seen one during huntin season they are all big but its a good thing someone usually gets drawn for any bull back home except this year


What's crazier is that they almost all have come from a 10 square mile area.:shock: Go figure!!

[krazy]

Very interesting information. From my experience the "honey hole" genetics theory is very true when it comes to immature bulls. I have taken 7 immatures since 1998 and, like Caveman & MCA, most of them have all been from the same general area only a few miles apart. I have even shot 2 moose in the same spot twice! (lol - that doesn't make any sense - that's 4 different moose in 4 different years in 2 different spots). Finnally got an 'any' bull draw this year so we'll see what happens but I'm hoping for an imy cause they are delicious! :tongue:

[4 point]

See lots of mature bulls, cows and calves every year. But I have only seen one 2 point in the past 15 years. He was with a cow. Early in the morning in fog and light drizzly standing in a shallow water hole. Waited until he stepped out than shot through to thick of bush and off they ran. Not a drop of blood so a clear miss thank goodness. As one wouldn't want a wounded one out there to suffer and be lost. Never took that kind of shoot again or will I.

[ratherbefishin]

again,my conclusion is something is amiss when the number of hunters has dropped by half,and LEH has further restricted the harvest-theoretically, the moose population should be rising and LEH odds improving-as more moose are available to be harvested.Either that,or we have significantly higher predation,loss of habitat, disease, road kill, native harvest,mistaken kill, or poaching that is reducing the intended result of increasing the numbers of allowable harvest.
I'd sure like to see some data to back up what they are doing.One concern I have is the 2pt rule amd or the tripalm rule is actually INCREASING the kill-due to mistaken identity of animals shot and left,then a legal animal taken afterwards,where if the first animal was taken-the second would not have

[RiverOtter]

PPS - No such thing as "Immatures" in the regulations. The correct term is "spike/fork" bulls to clear up confusion as to whether a 2 x 15 bull is legal (it is).

Seen a mature bull in region 8 with a busted off antler, leaving an 8-10 stub on one side of his head. For the record, I passed on him, but based on your statement above, I could of shot him. No.

RO

[Fisher-Dude]

Seen a mature bull in region 8 with a busted off antler, leaving an 8-10 stub on one side of his head. For the record, I passed on him, but based on your statement above, I could of shot him. No.

RO

Yes, by the law, you could have. I saw a 1 x 10 (?) with a polished off, deformed 6" stub that looked to have been damaged in velvet, and when telling the CO about it, he said "Why didn't you shoot him?" Well, he never stood around long enough...

A freshly broken antler is something I personally would pass on though, just like you did...just because it would be too "suspicious-looking" for me to be comfortable harvesting it. The way I see it - there will always be another chance at another bull, some day.

They used the term "immature" several years ago when they first brought the 2 point rule in, but then changed it about 4 years ago to "spike-fork" to avoid confusion. Short of a sperm sample, immature means nothing for the legal definition (good luck getting a sperm sample before your shot! :biggrin:).

From the regulations, page 4:

Moose - Spike-fork bull - means a bull moose having no more than two tines on one antler (Includes main antler and brow palms).

[Fisher-Dude]

again,my conclusion is something is amiss when the number of hunters has dropped by half,and LEH has further restricted the harvest-theoretically, the moose population should be rising and LEH odds improving-as more moose are available to be harvested.Either that,or we have significantly higher predation,loss of habitat, disease, road kill, native harvest,mistaken kill, or poaching that is reducing the intended result of increasing the numbers of allowable harvest.


I'd sure like to see some data to back up what they are doing.One concern I have is the 2pt rule amd or the tripalm rule is actually INCREASING the kill-due to mistaken identity of animals shot and left,then a legal animal taken afterwards,where if the first animal was taken-the second would not have


I agree, I think they are being managed way too conservatively. I think GOS is the way to go where there is no conservation concern. I'm hopeful that at the very least, if we are stuck with LEH, that the new allocation policy will put a few more moose in residents' freezers. We need funding for more population inventories to be done as well. Ask your local fish & game club about helping the ministry out with some organized spring counts too.

Interesting theory on the illegal kills increasing the harvest. Maybe our "HBC Stats Boy" can give us some numbers, if the ministry has any on this issue. No doubt there are a number that no one ever hears about that are left to rot. I think a big part of game managers' conservative LEH seasons is due to incomplete data, so they err on the side of caution.

Conventional wisdom though tells me that for years we had sustainable GOS throughout the province, with twice as many hunters, so why can't we go GOS moose hunting now?

[Amphibious]

if more people got out of their trucks, more people would find spikers ;)

[Will]

if more people got out of their trucks, more people would find spikers ;)
Nope Immys Flock along roadsides.......seems there attracted to the smell of burnt gasoline.......
All you Folks stay in your Trucks :D

[Amphibious]

Nope Immys Flock along roadsides.......seems there attracted to the smell of burnt gasoline.......
All you Folks stay in your Trucks :D

oh yeah, I agree!

don;t forget to bull call guys. sound like the biggest meanest mature bull you can! brings spikers in by the dozen!

:cool:

[ratherbefishin]

there is no way data could be obtained on mistaken kills and a second legal animal taken-who is going to answer that question on a harvest questionaire?I suggest there is enough anecdotal evidence to believe it is happening-resulting twice as many bulls killed as reported which completely negates any benefit from the theory of preserving the breeding stock

[Brambles]

Edited for content

[kennyg826]

Does that mean the one on the right is holdin' on so he doesn't fall over?
Lol. Maybe they're just really tired.

[Caveman]

Nope Immys Flock along roadsides.......seems there attracted to the smell of burnt gasoline.......
All you Folks stay in your Trucks :D

And from my experience, the truck has to be RED!!!!

[Fisher-Dude]

hehehehe
maybe another lifetime but not when he hunts - called fatigue

Call it fatigue...some call it a "fatty".

[Rock Doctor]

Between myself and my friends that I hunt with, about half of the moose we take are Spike/Fork and the others are tripalms. Even though we have the early "Any Bull" season, the animals shot would normally still fit in those categorys.

[quadrakid]

are those two points as tender and tasty as they look?

[Caveman]

are those two points as tender and tasty as they look?

Pretty tough to beat them!!! Tender enough to cut with a fork.

[Amphibious]

are those two points as tender and tasty as they look?


yes sir ;) 3hr old seared tenderloins with a little wasabi.... mmmmm......

[Mckinney Creek Adventures]

Pretty much all I feed my family, well except for some whitetail, mulie, and seafood for variety!

It does not get better than a 15 month old moose!

MCA

[Benthos]

Here's a two point a got in 2005. It was acutally my first animal. a 1x2. in my two years hunting, i've seen two (both in 2005).