Selkirk Caribou close to Extinct

[VLD43]

Have been listening to reports this morning, saying the Selkirk Caribou herd in the East Kooteneys, is down to 3 animals, all females. So technically extinct. What a sad state of affairs. I am not aware of what has caused this problem, but it seems that according to reports this is one of the most highly managed game populations.

[ryanb]

These herds have been known to be in trouble for a long time. The reasons are many, but when you only address the suspected causes that are convenient and ignore the rest, the outcome is assured.

[Brez]

Have been listening to reports this morning, saying the Selkirk Caribou herd in the East Kooteneys, is down to 3 animals, all females. So technically extinct. What a sad state of affairs. I am not aware of what has caused this problem, but it seems that according to reports this is one of the most highly managed game populations.

I believe the correct term is "highly mismanaged".

[weatherby_man]

That is sad news. Sounds like it was one of the more highly MIS-managed game populations.... Brez I think we typed that at around the same time lol....

[HunterChef]

So sad. I grew up near Salmo and remember seeing these caribou as a child. Government knows what needs to be done to protect these amazing animals but dose not have the balls to do it. Another example of government (of all political stripes) managing a population into extinction. Are all southern mountain caribou herds headed towards the same fate?

[kootenaihunter]

I believe the correct term is "highly mismanaged".

x1000

Back to square one. They'll end up grabbing more from up north and trying something again.

[kootenaihunter]

Are all southern mountain caribou herds headed towards the same fate?

Supposedly the upper herd is doing okay....but BC will put in a couple more heli and cat ski operations and put an end to that. "No Peak Undeveloped" that's BC's tourism catch phrase right?

Here are links to 2 proposed recreational land use tenures that will encompass much of the Southern Purcell range and encroach on some of the last remaining wilderness in the area.
https://arfd.gov.bc.ca/ApplicationPosting/viewpost.jsp?PostID=54933 (https://www.backcountryhunters.org/r?u=https%3A%2F%2Farfd.gov.bc.ca%2FApplicationPost ing%2Fviewpost.jsp%3FPostID%3D54933&e=8bd77d1c9bc3f86e41aa10129a26fad4&utm_source=backcountryhunters&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=purcell_tenure&n=5)
https://arfd.gov.bc.ca/ApplicationPosting/viewpost.jsp?PostID=54966 (https://www.backcountryhunters.org/r?u=https%3A%2F%2Farfd.gov.bc.ca%2FApplicationPost ing%2Fviewpost.jsp%3FPostID%3D54966&e=8bd77d1c9bc3f86e41aa10129a26fad4&utm_source=backcountryhunters&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=purcell_tenure&n=6)

A couple things to keep in mind.

Those actively working on the project are doing what they can with the little manpower and funds they get from the gov't. Remember, it's all talk and minimal action.
Many people that live and recreate in the immediate area do not value the herd and disregard access management plans (as per Ymir town hall meeting, etc.), again not enforced due to low funds and no manpower.
It's a trial and error process, and might not work the first time, so they will need to regroup and start again. Since when does the gov't ever get it right the first time?
If the project gets more support the next time around it might be more successful.

[Razor84]

See you in 30 days

[sawmill]

Trap and breed and release. Or, write them off. Used to be nothing but Boo up around Hazelton in the late 1800`s. No moose. Then the boo started migrating and dieing off. Not from logging either, we are talking 1890`s. They are a weak species. Save money, let them fade away, it`s not like anyone on this site has ever hunted this south herd. OK, maybe a very few but I can`t remember seeing a season.

[kootenaihunter]

They are a weak species. Save money, let them fade away, it`s not like anyone on this site has ever hunted this south herd.

You heard it here everyone, nobody on HuntingBC.ca has hunted them or will in the near future, so definitely not worth anybody's time!

[Ourea]

Caribou seem to be the canary in the coal mine far as species go.

They have been evaporating, and they are not a hunted species in this area.
Bigger picture folks.

[gcreek]

Caribou seem to be the canary in the coal mine far as species go.

They have been evaporating, and they are not a hunted species in this area.
Bigger picture folks.

Let's say predators.

[Elkaholic]

Let's say predators.

Lets say stop harvesting their habitat that is needed as well. With no old growth forest doesn't matter how little the preds are they will die with no food or usable habitat. But that doesn't work well for the logging company.

[Walking Buffalo]

Lets say stop harvesting their habitat that is needed as well. With no old growth forest doesn't matter how little the preds are they will die with no food or usable habitat. But that doesn't work well for the logging company.

And yet caribou elsewhere thrive without old growth forests.....

These caribou are not starving to death.

[Ride Red]

They survive in the Yukon (no old growth), they should do just fine here too. Cull the predators.

[Throwaway]

Predators of the 4 legged variety use roads just as well as the 2 legged kind. Letting those roads grow over will go a long way.

[Ride Red]

Predators of the 4 legged variety use roads just as well as the 2 legged kind. Letting those roads grow over will go a long way.

Again, cull the predators.

[J_T]

Finally. Of course it would be great to establish a viable and sustainable Cariboo population anywhere. However, at what cost? At what cost to other wildlife and other land use activities. Now perhaps we can start to focus on real wildlife management instead of wildlife rescue and demise. Hopefully social media will report that, at least they tried.

[LBM]

Trap and breed and release. Or, write them off. Used to be nothing but Boo up around Hazelton in the late 1800`s. No moose. Then the boo started migrating and dieing off. Not from logging either, we are talking 1890`s. They are a weak species. Save money, let them fade away, it`s not like anyone on this site has ever hunted this south herd. OK, maybe a very few but I can`t remember seeing a season.

They use to be on LEH I had a draw, I think maybe even open season at one time but not sure on that.

[Bugle M In]

Finally. Of course it would be great to establish a viable and sustainable Cariboo population anywhere. However, at what cost? At what cost to other wildlife and other land use activities. Now perhaps we can start to focus on real wildlife management instead of wildlife rescue and demise. Hopefully social media will report that, at least they tried.

This^^^^^ and what other's have said.
Time to let it go.
Time to "use this" to show what can happen if nothing is done "everywhere else".
And, it can now prove, "That Hunting (Regulated Hunting) had 0 to with this species demise in the Region".

But, disappointing that they were lost in this day and age.

[sawmill]

You heard it here everyone, nobody on HuntingBC.ca has hunted them or will in the near future, so definitely not worth anybody's time!
Millions of $ been spent so far to no avail. Do YOU have the answer? I say trap the last ones and try a captive breeding program. Or kill all the predaters? Including humans?
So , has anyone on this site ever hunted Koot cariboo? How about you Kootenai H.? Ever seen one? Shot one? Don`t be an asshead kid. You got a million dollars to spend on this? This herd has been declining despite the best efforts.

[Ride Red]

I’ve been lucky enough to have seen them at the Salmo pass summit years back. Such a waste when real management is swept aside for emotional ideals. Hopefully this will open some eyes to support the other wildlife in this province, but I’m afraid that self interest and stupidity will prevail over again. When will this madness stop?

[saskbooknut]

No species is any value unless you can shoot one.
Just about enough to make me an anti-hunter, and I have hunted for 55 years.
They walk among us and even have the vote. God help us.

[Bugle M In]

Okay folks, lets not get out hand here, and be respectful.
Sawmill, Kootenai, you both have legitimate concerns and posts.
In the end, it is an unfortunate set of events.
Lots of money, time and effort spent, and other thing sacrificed to protect this herd, to no avail.
Yup, sickening to not see results with all that effort, and sickening to know they are gone, and any hope for future
opportunity to be had one day, if not by us, but future generations.
No use to beat each other up over it now...imo.

[horshur]

Look up genetic threshold..they have been extinct for a long time.

[Brez]

Okay folks, lets not get out hand here, and be respectful.
Sawmill, Kootenai, you both have legitimate concerns and posts.
In the end, it is an unfortunate set of events.
Lots of money, time and effort spent, and other thing sacrificed to protect this herd, to no avail.
Yup, sickening to not see results with all that effort, and sickening to know they are gone, and any hope for future
opportunity to be had one day, if not by us, but future generations.
No use to beat each other up over it now...imo.
I agree BMI. We have to chill. none of us are not the bad guys here. It's not an ideal situation, but the gov't should make the best of it - learn what can be learned, cut the losses and let's move on with better ideas for the other species here. I believe the LEH was stopped because of pressure from the great US of A. Just like the LEH on grizzlies in these areas. There were enough animals in the area at the time but for whatever reasons, the species cannot survive here now. Who knows, with some new policies, perhaps they can be reintroduced down the road and do better. Too bad though as they are a cool animal and I've run across a few while hunting elk and deer.

[HarryToolips]

What a sad situation, too bad our govt didn't have the balls to tell all the hipsters what the real problem is and deal with it accordingly.....hope someone sends the link to Miley Cyrus..

[Stone Sheep Steve]

If we had a separate body managing wildlife for the last 30 years, I don't think we would be at this state that we are today.

It's failed system when no one has the balls to carry out repeated recommendations.
Hopefully this failure will be the driving force to get things clanged.

SSS

[gcreek]

Predators of the 4 legged variety use roads just as well as the 2 legged kind. Letting those roads grow over will go a long way.

Oh? They don't use the caribou trails anymore?

Next thing wolves will need a driver's licence. Give me a break.....

[Pemby_mess]

Oh? They don't use the caribou trails anymore?

Next thing wolves will need a driver's licence. Give me a break.....

Roads with machine packed snow are a lot easier for the wolves to intercept caribou and other ungulates from. If machine packed snow is present up into the alpine, where it wasn't before, wolves are going to have a predatory advantage that they formerly never had.

[GEF]

I remember an article in the 80's in a bc outdours or something about the mountain caribou .Talked about limiting snow mobile and road access and heli skiing in the percells .The packed trails helped the predator access .It was well documented in the article .There was a big uproar from the user groups and it got ignored .I guess this is the out come.They were stating that the wolfs normally did not access the alpine in that area and that the access and the disturbance from the helicopters pushing the herds down were huge factors.I wish I had kept the piece .It was a good read.

[panhead]

Check out this bou ...
http://www.richmond-news.com/news/province-dedicates-2m-to-help-restore-caribou-habitat-1.23266638
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An old man was walking the beach early one morning, bending down to pick up starfish and throwing them out into the ocean. A teenager came by and asked, “Old man, what are you doing?”

“These starfish will die of dehydration once the sun comes up high,” he said. “I’m throwing them back into the ocean so they will live.”

“Ha!” the young man spat sarcastically. “The beach goes on for miles, and there are millions of starfish. What does it matter what you do?”

The old man looked at the starfish in his hand and then flipped it to safety in the waves. “It matters to this one,” he said.

[Ourea]

Roads with machine packed snow are a lot easier for the wolves to intercept caribou and other ungulates from. If machine packed snow is present up into the alpine, where it wasn't before, wolves are going to have a predatory advantage that they formerly never had.

^^^^^^
This is well documented and has been observed during aerial wildlife counts.
Wolves are seen trotting down roads vs pushing deep snow.

[Pemby_mess]

I remember an article in the 80's in a bc outdours or something about the mountain caribou .Talked about limiting snow mobile and road access and heli skiing in the percells .The packed trails helped the predator access .It was well documented in the article .There was a big uproar from the user groups and it got ignored .I guess this is the out come.They were stating that the wolfs normally did not access the alpine in that area and that the access and the disturbance from the helicopters pushing the herds down were huge factors.I wish I had kept the piece .It was a good read.

exactly.

Unmonitored, and unhindered by regulation, snowmobile use has exploded in the last 2 decades. Formerly deserted alpine areas are now veritable zoos of motor heads -and powder junkies throughout the late winter. 20-30 machines running up an alpine access rd packs the snow firm. Sometimes for the rest of the season in a low snow year. That makes wolf mobility infinitely easier, especially when this is repeated all over the province's mountainous regions.

Heli-skiing by itself probably doesn't have a huge impact on an operation to operation basis. But like other things it's cummalative, and is an additional exacerbating factor to other conditions. Combine large numbers of unrestricted recreational and commercial snowmobile machines in the near country alpine, competing heli skiing operations pushing further into the wilderness avoiding sled activity and competing cat ski operations in the treeline, and throw in some wide open cut blocks everywhere for good measure, and the caribou are going to be lost eventually.

[horshur]

You guys keep wanting to go back to the garden..but the son of man ate the fruit...cats out of the bag. Genie is out of the lantern..dug to deep in the mines. If Adam had just not ate that Apple.

[Pemby_mess]

You guys keep wanting to go back to the garden..but the son of man ate the fruit...cats out of the bag. Genie is out of the lantern..dug to deep in the mines. If Adam had just not ate that Apple.

Just because we're well beyond the garden, it doesn't require us to go back in and cut it all down. We can use our knowledge to preserve it, and visit it regularly without trashing the place. It's important to value it for what it is, even if we now know it's not all that there is.

[labguy]

Well, they should have gotten rid of the moose so the wolves would move on thereby saving the Caribou. :confused::confused::confused: Tongue firmly in cheek regards.

[dana]

Well, they should have gotten rid of the moose so the wolves would move on thereby saving the Caribou. :confused::confused::confused: Tongue firmly in cheek regards.

And the whitetails and muleys too. Oh, wait....they did just that. Kill off the moose, the muleys and the whitetails in Region 3 and guess what happened??? The caribou didn't come back!!! Hmmm, wouldn't it have just made it a hell of a lot easier to get rid of the number 1 problem???? Nope, too many dog lovers that just want to study them. It will be 'fascinating'!!!! And before they are completely finished, we might as well kill the economies of every town anywhere near the caribou habitat. Lets ban logging, sledding and skiing because they are the ones that caused this right???

[Ride Red]

Interesting read; https://www.gao.gov/archive/1999/rc99102.pdf

[Pemby_mess]

And the whitetails and muleys too. Oh, wait....they did just that. Kill off the moose, the muleys and the whitetails in Region 3 and guess what happened??? The caribou didn't come back!!! Hmmm, wouldn't it have just made it a hell of a lot easier to get rid of the number 1 problem???? Nope, too many dog lovers that just want to study them. It will be 'fascinating'!!!! And before they are completely finished, we might as well kill the economies of every town anywhere near the caribou habitat. Lets ban logging, sledding and skiing because they are the ones that caused this right???

None of this stuff needs to be banned. It just needs to be done in a more thoughtful, cohesive way. Acknowledging that something has an impact isn't akin to being totally against that something. Nor does it mean that people advocating for better ways of doing things are somehow prepared to sacrifice all the benefits previously attained through such activities.

For starters, we can put more narrow restrictions on commercial land use agreements. And just as importantly, enforce those restrictions. Quite often a tenure proponent will start their application with a very specific prescribed use, and then subsequently creep out the scope. Since there is rarely any kind of accountability microscope on things happening out in the backcountry, a lot of impacts can accumulate before anyone seems to notice that unintended consequences are happening. The backcountry users will then beg forgiveness and demand post hoc permission claiming their previously unsanctioned land use gives them precedent.

Motorized recreational use is a perfectly legitimate activity. However public encouragement of a defacto free for all in the mountains is a death writ for the integral wild spaces BCers pride themselves on. Increasingly sophisticated machines, operated by an increasingly wealthier and freer society untethered to any kind of natural or legal limitations, is going to have dire consequences for wildlife sooner or later. Some might consider the loss of caribou one of those consequences, but others say "hey, who cares if nobody has ever hunted them anyway".

So the question for hunters and everyone else; is what are the values that are important? And important to who? Once we decide what our collective values are, how do we prosper while staying consistent with what it is we have previously determined?

[horshur]

It is pretty obvious what our collective values are...

[horshur]

We need to know four things. What there is,what to do about what there is,that there is a difference between knowing what there is,and knowing what to do about what there is and what that difference is. J Peterson.

[britman101]

Earlier this year there were plans put in place to save a small herd of Selkirk Caribou.

http://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/pen-project-aims-to-protect-tiny-endangered-herd-of-south-selkirk-caribou

[Pemby_mess]

It is pretty obvious what our collective values are...

is it though? not to me.

some people see an old growth cedar forest, and hear chainsaws, see neatly stacked lumber lifts waiting for export across the ocean to Japan, and imagine the house and toys they can afford after the numbers accumulate in their bank accounts for their part in it.

others may see it as nearly sacred, an increasingly rare zone of biodiversity, worthy of emptying their bank account to protect with funds amassed from some impact somewhere else.

Some see a big open snowy alpine mountain face as a place to test one's resolve in silence. Others a place to do the same with a 70hp machine, others again the money involved in developing a system to convey as many tourists as possible as easily as possible. Still others see the minerals involved below the surface.

Are any of these values regarding the same physical thing wrong?

[Pemby_mess]

Interesting read; https://www.gao.gov/archive/1999/rc99102.pdf

"Some recovery program officials cautioned, however, that the primarycause of the decline in the southern Selkirk caribou population is currentlyunknown and it is important not to designate predation as the ultimatereason. For example, these officials noted that marginal habitat may be themajor problem."

it it then goes on to describe the existent impacts of motorized winter recreation. This was written before the exact mechanism of injury regarding winter recreation was fully known.

[horshur]

What people do..is what they believe. Not what they say or think. In that stead it is obvious the beliefs of the collective for the most part.

[gcreek]

Roads with machine packed snow are a lot easier for the wolves to intercept caribou and other ungulates from. If machine packed snow is present up into the alpine, where it wasn't before, wolves are going to have a predatory advantage that they formerly never had.

Have you ever walked a caribou trail?

[gcreek]

Check out this bou ...
http://www.richmond-news.com/news/province-dedicates-2m-to-help-restore-caribou-habitat-1.23266638
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An old man was walking the beach early one morning, bending down to pick up starfish and throwing them out into the ocean. A teenager came by and asked, “Old man, what are you doing?”

“These starfish will die of dehydration once the sun comes up high,” he said. “I’m throwing them back into the ocean so they will live.”

“Ha!” the young man spat sarcastically. “The beach goes on for miles, and there are millions of starfish. What does it matter what you do?”

The old man looked at the starfish in his hand and then flipped it to safety in the waves. “It matters to this one,” he said.


Yes panhead, they will keep plucking the chicken til it dies.

[Pemby_mess]

Have you ever walked a caribou trail?

i think so, what's your point?

that the caribou pack down the snow as they move? Have you ever walked up a cat-track?

[Pemby_mess]

What people do..is what they believe. Not what they say or think. In that stead it is obvious the beliefs of the collective for the most part.

yes, there is some wisdom there. I guess I'm more optimistic that an extinction or confirmed extirpation has the ability to force some of us to at least re-evaluate what our values are.

[gcreek]

Well, they should have gotten rid of the moose so the wolves would move on thereby saving the Caribou. :confused::confused::confused: Tongue firmly in cheek regards.


Yes, that has worked very well hey?

The bios will keep using caribou for a job creation plan as long as one is alive. They can make people believe all kinds of BS but predation is the main factor for all wildlife loss in the last 20 years.

If that is too hard for some to absorb I'll make it simpler to understand. Why are predators the only wildlife with healthy populations as compared to prey species?

[gcreek]

i think so, what's your point?

that the caribou pack down the snow as they move? Have you ever walked up a cat-track?

#1, Mountain Caribou don't only stay in the alpine during the whole year. They move in and out of it as conditions permit.

#2, They travel long distances over their ranges creating trails for anything to follow, including wolves.

#3 Limiting access will have a small part in saving a caribou from a wolf but if a wolf is hungry, they will get to their prey regardless if there is a human made access to it or not.

Why do you support all aspects of "saving the caribou" but a bit of predator control?

[Pemby_mess]

If that is too hard for some to absorb I'll make it simpler to understand. Why are predators the only wildlife with healthy populations as compared to prey species?

Because predators are riding on the coat-tails of THE superpredator. They are adapting to the landscape we have created at a faster rate than their prey.

[Pemby_mess]

#1, Mountain Caribou don't only stay in the alpine during the whole year. They move in and out of it as conditions permit.

#2, They travel long distances over their ranges creating trails for anything to follow, including wolves.

#3 Limiting access will have a small part in saving a caribou from a wolf but if a wolf is hungry, they will get to their prey regardless if there is a human made access to it or not.

Why do you support all aspects of "saving the caribou" but a bit of predator control?

who said I don't support targeted, comprehensive predator control? I certainly don't support any and every means of it. I don't support eradicating any wildlife species either.

I am saying the issue is greater than that, and so must the solutions to the problem be.

I dont really agree with the wider scope of your points either. Being followed by a single pack of wolves, is a whole lot more manageable for a herd of caribou than being head off in every direction by predators of all kinds following packed down roads as a super highway to a buffet. Being forced out of the alpine by snow conditions is different than being forced down into a breakable crust in the trees by overhead helicopters and a party of snowmobiles.

[dana]

Because predators are riding on the coat-tails of THE superpredator. They are adapting to the landscape we have created at a faster rate than their prey.

Man has managed predators since the dawn of time, but suddenly they are off limits and every other critter must suffer because man can not bear the thought of a dog dying. The fact is there has been regulation upon regulation to save these caribou. And those regulations have not worked. Why?? Is it that we don't have enough regulations??? The city dwellers that think they know best have never put boots to the ground and actually thought out the situation. They sit at their computers and type in piety that the damn knuckdraggers need to come to their senses and be restricted into oblivion. That lap dog under your chair couldn't possibly be such a vicious killer. No, that can't possibly be. He loves me. I can see it in his eyes. No, it is man that is the vicious killer. It is man that needs to go.

[Ride Red]

"Some recovery program officials cautioned, however, that the primarycause of the decline in the southern Selkirk caribou population is currentlyunknown and it is important not to designate predation as the ultimatereason. For example, these officials noted that marginal habitat may be themajor problem."

it it then goes on to describe the existent impacts of motorized winter recreation. This was written before the exact mechanism of injury regarding winter recreation was fully known.

Hey Pemby, if your going to cut and paste, make sure you get it all; not just what suites your purpose for argument.

Quote: ”Although the cause of death is unknown for many caribou, researchers currently believe that predation (killing), mainly by cougars, is the most common cause.”

[Ride Red]

Because predators are riding on the coat-tails of THE superpredator. They are adapting to the landscape we have created at a faster rate than their prey.

Wolf populations have increased dramatically over the last 10 plus years and a major restorative cull is in order to keep checks and balances. Without this, all prey are in serious trouble. It’s not that hard to see if you spend any amount of time outside the major populations areas.

[Pemby_mess]

Man has managed predators sinse the dawn of time, but suddenly they are off limits and every other critter must suffer because man can not bear the thought of a dog dying. The fact is there has been regulation upon regulation to save these caribou. And those regulations have not worked. Why?? Is it that we don't have enough regulations??? The city dwellers that think they know best have never put boots to the ground and actually thought out the situation. They sit at their computers and type in piety that the damn knuckdraggers need to come to their senses and be restricted into oblivion. That lap dog under your chair couldn't possibly be such a vicious killer. No, that can't possibly be. He loves me. I can see it in his eyes. No, it is man that is the vicious killer. It is man that needs to go.

Are you actually responding to anything that I've said, or do you have some kind of personal chip on your shoulder and thought it might be appropriate to vent to me about it?

Re Regulations: I don't think I'm advocating for more necessarily as much as implementing the right ones where they make sense. More importantly strictly enforcing the really important ones. Also being more cohesive and dynamic/ proactive with what is implemented. Less reactionary. More co-operation is necessary for balancing values for land use planning, the impacts recognized by every stakeholder, and authoritative mitigation fully executed. All of which certainly involves some predator control, yes Dana; thank you.

[Pemby_mess]

Wolf populations have increased dramatically over the last 10 plus years and a major restorative cull is in order to keep checks and balances. Without this, all prey are in serious trouble. It’s not that hard to see if you spend any amount of time outside the major populations areas.

sure, I'll agree with that. But thought has to be given to what happens after. To be effective, what has happened needs to be soberly acknowledged.

[Pemby_mess]

Hey Pemby, if your going to cut and paste, make sure you get it all; not just what suites your purpose for argument.

Quote: ”Although the cause of death is unknown for many caribou, researchers currently believe that predation (killing), mainly by cougars, is the most common cause.”

"currently believed" "for many".......in 1999

i wasn't about to copy and paste 68 pages or whatever it was. I thought given the age of the research, highlighting the projected conclusion to be more relevant.

I also described the modern day context to the quote, in which we now have a better idea of the entire mechanism behind their decline.

[gcreek]

who said I don't support targeted, comprehensive predator control? I certainly don't support any and every means of it. I don't support eradicating any wildlife species either.

I am saying the issue is greater than that, and so must the solutions to the problem be.

I dont really agree with the wider scope of your points either. Being followed by a single pack of wolves, is a whole lot more manageable for a herd of caribou than being head off in every direction by predators of all kinds following packed down roads as a super highway to a buffet. Being forced out of the alpine by snow conditions is different than being forced down into a breakable crust in the trees by overhead helicopters and a party of snowmobiles.

There are an estimated 250 wolves in the Itcha Ulgatchuz Park. Who knows how many grizzlies? The caribou herd has gone from 2500 10 or 12 years ago to about 7 or 800 today. Moose herds decimated tooThere are no roads or logging in this vast area. What does your theory say to that?

[dana]

Pemby,
Aside from reading what you think goes on out in the sacred caribou habitat, have you actually seen the regulations in process. I have. I have worked with them each and every day over the last 25 years. And I have watched as more and more regulations have been put on top of the tons already in place. Be it forestry, sledding or skiing or any backcountry use. The stakeholders have given and given and given. And yet Caribou have continued to decline and decline and decline. I have watched the predators numbers explode and seen the lack of concern from the so-called scientists. Much better to get more money and put more collars on more dogs than to actually do something that matters. So, yes, I have a personal chip on my shoulder when it comes to the mismanagement of caribou.

[Ride Red]

"currently believed" "for many".......in 1999

i wasn't about to copy and paste 68 pages or whatever it was. I thought given the age of the research, highlighting the projected conclusion to be more relevant.

I also described the modern day context to the quote, in which we now have a better idea of the entire mechanism behind their decline.

It does show that predation was a factor back then and has continually ramped up until today. Yes there are other factors, but a restorative cull is in the forefront of slowing down the demise of our precious ungulates.

[Pemby_mess]

There are an estimated 250 wolves in the Itcha Ulgatchuz Park. Who knows how many grizzlies? The caribou herd has gone from 2500 10 or 12 years ago to about 7 or 800 today. Moose herds decimated tooThere are no roads or logging in this vast area. What does your theory say to that?

I don't know if it's accurate to call it my theory, but thanks for the credit.

A) it's worth noting that cyclical predator/prey ratios have always been highly volatile from the peaks to the troughs. So if an area was left relatively free of interference, I'd expect the kind of changes you're describing.

b) to recover from such a decline, good clean habitat is necessary. And preferably access to traditional migratory routes.

c) I'm not sure we can say that the impacts humans have on migratory predator numbers in one area, are going to stay strictly confined to that area unfortunately. Obviously if wolves find a way to vastly exceed one areas natural carrying capacity, they're going to either move or expand into areas that have remaining excess capacity.

[dana]

There are an estimated 250 wolves in the Itcha Ulgatchuz Park. Who knows how many grizzlies? The caribou herd has gone from 2500 10 or 12 years ago to about 7 or 800 today. Moose herds decimated tooThere are no roads or logging in this vast area. What does your theory say to that?

That reminds me of a Park close to me, Wells Gray. No roads. No logging. The largest untouched wilderness area in Southern BC. Should be where the caribou can acheive great success right? Nope! Habitat upon Habitat upon Habitat and yet the caribou aren't able to get their heads above the water. Hmmm, why? Could it have something to do with zero predator control? Naw, just couldn't be that.

[Ride Red]

I don't know if it's accurate to call it my theory, but thanks for the credit.

A) it's worth noting that cyclical predator/prey ratios have always been highly volatile from the peaks to the troughs. So if an area was left relatively free of interference, I'd expect the kind of changes you're describing.

b) to recover from such a decline, good clean habitat is necessary. And preferably access to traditional migratory routes.

c) I'm not sure we can say that the impacts humans have on migratory predator numbers in one area, are going to stay strictly confined to that area unfortunately. Obviously if wolves find a way to vastly exceed one areas natural carrying capacity, they're going to either move or expand into areas that have remaining excess capacity.

That’s the big problem; wolves are exceeding their areas and decimating all the surroudings areas too. Won’t be long and the only thing left will be starving wolves.

[338win mag]

Looks like the hippie's have a decision to make, and wear, do they want Caribou, or wolves? you can't have both.
I wonder what Sadie Parr (wolf lover) has to say about that?

[gutpile]

Are they a different species from up north , if not then transplant some from the north country .
I always thought caribou lived in north BC funny to have seen them around Revelstoke a few years ago while hunt for grizzly
was totally surprised .
I always have image of them being a tundra animal not a forest creature .

[338win mag]

Look up genetic threshold..they have been extinct for a long time.
Something like this is also very close to the truth^^^^^....I believe.

[Pemby_mess]

Are they a different species from up north , if not then transplant some from the north country .
I always thought caribou lived in north BC funny to have seen them around Revelstoke a few years ago while hunt for grizzly
was totally surprised .
I always have image of them being a tundra animal not a forest creature .

''woodland caribou" - not sure any population has an abundance of animals at this stage unfortunately

[horshur]

Apparently government pledged millions for caribou...so please use it on viable herds not the lost causes..triage is important for there are limited funds and even more limited strategies..

[horshur]

Don't let ideology get in the way of actual conservation!

[HarryToolips]

That reminds me of a Park close to me, Wells Gray. No roads. No logging. The largest untouched wilderness area in Southern BC. Should be where the caribou can acheive great success right? Nope! Habitat upon Habitat upon Habitat and yet the caribou aren't able to get their heads above the water. Hmmm, why? Could it have something to do with zero predator control? Naw, just couldn't be that.
^^^^how are the moose doing in Wells Grey btw?? IMO your all right, pred control is direly needed, and human impact on the landscape is not helping the ungulates at this point in the cycle as well, especially the caribou...I believe logging initially helped the other ungulates other than caribou with all the new feed, and continues to do so when done in moderation, but that of course increased the number of preds, and as Pemby said, we are now witnessing the trough of the ungulate population numbers in the cycle, in many areas of BC.....

[dana]

Moose have tanked in Wells Gray as have muleys and whitetails. Habitat galore and virtually no wildlife. This is what happens when you put one animal on a pedestal and let all other animals suffer.

[#49]

I have had conversations with people about the caribous demise,and the point I try to make to them is that we all have blood on our hands.Be it from being a logger to anyone that uses the backcountry and that the caribou needed help in the form of predator control.However most of the Nelson skier types dont want to here this and would rather blame industry.One has to remember that there used to be thousands of miners and prospectors all through there range and herds were fine.Not saying that some habitat protection wasnt needed,but at 3 animals left its over

[Ride Red]

The ecotourists love to complain about hunters, loggers ect, but won’t compromise with any of their sports. Until all user groups are on the same page, nothing will change and all wildlife will suffer.

[#49]

What he said ^^^^

[Ratso]

I don't really comment on this site...but do enjoy reading some of the discussions. Putting personal opinions aside regarding the use of machines for hunting (I prefer a frame pack) I think Pemby is simply seeing the writing on the wall a little clearer than most. We hunters are facing a shift in government policy and public opinion that is not going to support hunting...in fact, it's going in the opposite direction. This caribou collapse, declining moose and muley numbers etc are all pointing to fewer hunting opportunities and greater regulation. Human nature is to push our limits...unfortunately, this means that cutting in new tracks for ATV/UTVs to sensitive habitat that may have a negative effect on wildlife. These tracks never get smaller...they just keep getting bigger/deeper and provide more easy access for riders and wolves. We are not going to get this horse back in the barn and I'd expect significantly more ATV/UTV restrictions province-wide in the regs in coming years. The issue of unrestricted FN hunting regardless of any conservation issues is a potentially bigger problem [IMHO] that no government is likely to tackle. As hunters I think we are basically fighting a losing battle if we don't take a page out of the anti's book and start self-regulating a bit more...and ranting less. Officially, hunting is a privilege...not a right...and priveleges are easily removed.

Just my opinion.

[HarryToolips]

Moose have tanked in Wells Gray as have muleys and whitetails. Habitat galore and virtually no wildlife. This is what happens when you put one animal on a pedestal and let all other animals suffer.
Sorry to hear that.....I wish we had the OK from govt. to start knocking wolf numbers down by more effective methods..

[Bugle M In]

I don't really comment on this site...but do enjoy reading some of the discussions. Putting personal opinions aside regarding the use of machines for hunting (I prefer a frame pack) I think Pemby is simply seeing the writing on the wall a little clearer than most. We hunters are facing a shift in government policy and public opinion that is not going to support hunting...in fact, it's going in the opposite direction. This caribou collapse, declining moose and muley numbers etc are all pointing to fewer hunting opportunities and greater regulation. Human nature is to push our limits...unfortunately, this means that cutting in new tracks for ATV/UTVs to sensitive habitat that may have a negative effect on wildlife. These tracks never get smaller...they just keep getting bigger/deeper and provide more easy access for riders and wolves. We are not going to get this horse back in the barn and I'd expect significantly more ATV/UTV restrictions province-wide in the regs in coming years. The issue of unrestricted FN hunting regardless of any conservation issues is a potentially bigger problem [IMHO] that no government is likely to tackle. As hunters I think we are basically fighting a losing battle if we don't take a page out of the anti's book and start self-regulating a bit more...and ranting less. Officially, hunting is a privilege...not a right...and priveleges are easily removed.

Just my opinion.

What he said^^^^^ (sounds like you "should" post more often!!)

[J_T]

The ecotourists love to complain about hunters, loggers ect, but won’t compromise with any of their sports. Until all user groups are on the same page, nothing will change and all wildlife will suffer.Agree. Which is why in the EK when we (KWC) wanted to raise awareness to Government about working for wildlife, we started - not with hunting regulation - but with 'let's make more wildlife' and we agreed to work with non hunting groups. Everyone needs to own the objective of making more wildlife and understanding their role/impact in it. Not just hunters.

[Brez]

I don't really comment on this site...but do enjoy reading some of the discussions. Putting personal opinions aside regarding the use of machines for hunting (I prefer a frame pack) I think Pemby is simply seeing the writing on the wall a little clearer than most. We hunters are facing a shift in government policy and public opinion that is not going to support hunting...in fact, it's going in the opposite direction. This caribou collapse, declining moose and muley numbers etc are all pointing to fewer hunting opportunities and greater regulation. Human nature is to push our limits...unfortunately, this means that cutting in new tracks for ATV/UTVs to sensitive habitat that may have a negative effect on wildlife. These tracks never get smaller...they just keep getting bigger/deeper and provide more easy access for riders and wolves. We are not going to get this horse back in the barn and I'd expect significantly more ATV/UTV restrictions province-wide in the regs in coming years. The issue of unrestricted FN hunting regardless of any conservation issues is a potentially bigger problem [IMHO] that no government is likely to tackle. As hunters I think we are basically fighting a losing battle if we don't take a page out of the anti's book and start self-regulating a bit more...and ranting less. Officially, hunting is a privilege...not a right...and priveleges are easily removed.

Just my opinion.
Thanks for your opinion. I tend to agree with you. This is a mutlifacetted issue and ALL those with blood on their hands (wittingly or not) gotta own up and quit blaming everyone else. Even if it's too late for our southern caribou herds, it may not be too late for other animal populations - that is if we learn anything.