Mule deer

[bc8x8]

I have noticed that there seem to be a lot less mule deer around this winter. Over the past years we have had deer in our yard in groups up to 8 at least 3 or more times each week. Also driving up the Todd Mtn. road i would usually see a few deer. This winter we have had maybe 3 deer in our yard and have only seen one on the drive to Sun Peaks.
Anyone else noticed this? ( Kamloops area ) Maybe they have hooked up their RV's and gone south??

[Dirty Steve]

Armstrong is the same deal man.... They're pretty scarce lately.
I've been working on the yotie population though.....

[walks with deer]

kamloops mule deer where doing strong last winter until about april...then they disappeared i was hoping they where hyding but they never came back...
i think the population is at a 21 year low..its not hunting or poaching related the pred population was at a max...seems like they are going down know...logging winter range doesnt help eitheir..
last dec i counted 37 bucks in area.
this dec there was 1 but there wasnt the 200does eitheir there was 26...

[Everett]

Its because they have all moved to Kimberley counted 28 mule deer on my street two days ago and over 30 turkeys.

[Cyrus]

Way too much snow this year. I agree I have seen a lot less. Only 3 bucks all winter and the same group of does. Guessing this was not an easy winter on any ungulates.

[lovemywinchester]

I had this conversation with a local hunting guide a week ago. He just states matter of factually that the deer are not anywhere. Mulies and whitetails are hurting with the mule deer numbers down especially. He hunts all winter for cats and he says he sees very few tracks or live animals where traditionally they would overwinter. He lists a few main contributing factors.

Access. Too much access due to logging roads and vehicles.
Logging and logging of winter ranges in particular. Any one can drive around the bush around Kamloops and see the fir forests getting cut down.
Lack of pred control province wide.
Unregulated hunting. Year round hunting by natives but also all the non-natives that are using their status friends as an excuse to hunt all winter. He runs into guys all winter that say" I'm just here to help my buddy, he's staus." He says it's just as busy in the bush after Dec 10 as before.

Mu buddy is resigned to the fact that the mulies are struggling big time and these are the main reasons. This guy is born and raised in the Loops and is in the bush more than probably any of us on here so I listen when he tells me whats up.

[4 point]

I agree with lovemywinchester's comments. I live in upper Aberdeen and there are a lot of city deer around here this winter. 7 in one group last night in our yard. Heavy snow higher up and even into their winter range would push them lower than ever this winter. I would imagine along north side of Kamloops Lake, Westsyde Road and southern exposure areas they would all be at maybe in lower numbers for sure.

[Bugle M In]

they need somewhere to go....down low....to bad we have built on it over the years....now we pay for it.
preds, like wolves have definitely not helped things.

[boxhitch]

Record snowfalls are pushing critters around more than usual, just hope they can get to some feed somewhere. Fields in the Vernon Armstrong Spallumcheen area are void of deer tracks, hope they all made it to Lake Country



to bad we have built on it over the years....now we pay for it

[Jelvis]

-- Keep bitchin about low numbers of Mule deer around Kammy The Ministry will put them on LEH like the rest yah beached about, this is how hunters shoot themselves in the foot I've seen over decades.
- Alberta is down to one month of mule deer and that's it. Start bithcin, rhe public reads it, informs the Ministry, have local group meetings invite all..
Hunters anti hunters, local spca, wilderness watch, animal rights, local Indian mule deer sustenance group and it's you on HBC bringing it up.
-- The Grizzly is gone now mule deer started soon the list in Kammy I guess ? Yes or No? welll ahhh yahl no ahh cood be in some area yet i'd have to say yahnomaybeso
Do you hunt or just feed deer in your yard?

Jel -- YES / NO or MAYBE SO ? - cood be yah no ahh I yah welll maybe ahhhh so reall whoa

[horshur]

Heavy snow the deer camp...have to cause the energy required to feed is too high. Resting and moving very little to conserve energy is the best strategy. Usually it is fawn crop that pays the price. With a break in the weather they will start to move and things won't look so bad.

[wos]

Keep bitchin about low numbers of Mule deer around Kammy The Ministry will put them on LEH like the rest yah beached about, this is how hunters shoot themselves in the foot I've seen over decades.*
- Alberta is down to one month of mule deer and that's it. Start bithcin, rhe public reads it, informs the Ministry, have local group meetings invite all..
Hunters anti hunters, local spca, wilderness watch, animal rights, local Indian mule deer sustenance group and it's you on HBC bringing it up.
-- The Grizzly is gone now mule deer started soon the list in Kammy I guess ? Yes or No? welll ahhh yahl no ahh cood be in some area yet i'd have to say yahnomaybeso
Do you hunt or just feed deer in your yard?

Jel -- YES / NO or MAYBE SO ? - cood be yah no ahh I yah welll maybe ahhhh so reall whoa

Last edited by Jelvis; Today at*07:04 PM.*Reason:*No mule deer left now in Kamloops?



For the first time I can understand exactly what you are saying.

[boxhitch]

Heavy snow the deer camp...have to cause the energy required to feed is too high. Resting and moving very little to conserve energy is the best strategy. Usually it is fawn crop that pays the price. With a break in the weather they will start to move and things won't look so bad.Mature timber can be a haven, munching on needles as long as they last

[DarekG]

For the first time I can understand exactly what you are saying.

I second this statement.

[J_T]

Gee don't raise this topic with the hard core from region 3 and 8. They're convinced deer are doing fine. In region 4 we know populations are low. And current aerial counts are confirming it. Regardless of what some might say. Nocturnal deer still leave a track.

[f350ps]

You guys are all crazy and misguided, FisherDude will be here soon with numbers that show you are all blind!! K

[walks with deer]

I agree deer are good at camping out with weather or pressure.. I watched a group last week going on there hinds in heavy timber eating the moss of branches.
Love my Winchester your friend should call Francis are regional bio and talk location and sign.

JeLo I agree no whistle blowing but watch for sure I think it's just a cycle. But we should be leaving wintering timber standing..

Dana pushes on the prediction factor hard north of my house which he is a smart man... however logging alll of the lower elevation along Adam could have easily caused a superficial boom than bust... all exposed and no where to go. Good feed but no hiding 2 to 3 years high numbers than predict numbers build and bamboo dead zone

[HarryToolips]

I had this conversation with a local hunting guide a week ago. He just states matter of factually that the deer are not anywhere. Mulies and whitetails are hurting with the mule deer numbers down especially. He hunts all winter for cats and he says he sees very few tracks or live animals where traditionally they would overwinter. He lists a few main contributing factors.

Access. Too much access due to logging roads and vehicles.
Logging and logging of winter ranges in particular. Any one can drive around the bush around Kamloops and see the fir forests getting cut down.
Lack of pred control province wide.
Unregulated hunting. Year round hunting by natives but also all the non-natives that are using their status friends as an excuse to hunt all winter. He runs into guys all winter that say" I'm just here to help my buddy, he's staus." He says it's just as busy in the bush after Dec 10 as before.

Mu buddy is resigned to the fact that the mulies are struggling big time and these are the main reasons. This guy is born and raised in the Loops and is in the bush more than probably any of us on here so I listen when he tells me whats up.
All valid points...I believe that the pathetic non native folks who actually call themselves hunters and shoot anything while being with natives need to be stopped...I talked to one of these poachers a couple months back and wish I was able to get his name....they need to make a law where any non native even in a vehicle or with a native while in possession of non legal game for non natives needs to be nailed...

[HarryToolips]

-- Keep bitchin about low numbers of Mule deer around Kammy The Ministry will put them on LEH like the rest yah beached about, this is how hunters shoot themselves in the foot I've seen over decades.
- Alberta is down to one month of mule deer and that's it. Start bithcin, rhe public reads it, informs the Ministry, have local group meetings invite all..
Hunters anti hunters, local spca, wilderness watch, animal rights, local Indian mule deer sustenance group and it's you on HBC bringing it up.
-- The Grizzly is gone now mule deer started soon the list in Kammy I guess ? Yes or No? welll ahhh yahl no ahh cood be in some area yet i'd have to say yahnomaybeso
Do you hunt or just feed deer in your yard?

Jel -- YES / NO or MAYBE SO ? - cood be yah no ahh I yah welll maybe ahhhh so reall whoa
Anybody who isn't ignorant on the subject will know that as long as the buck:doe ratio is fine, hunting will not impact the overall populations...cutting back mule deer seasons on bucks will not help deer deal with higher snow levels...FYI in my parts of region 8 I'm seeing numbers of both whitetails and mulies down, but not way down by any means..I believe it's a combo of more development of winter range, higher snow levels than normal last year, and increasing pred numbers, I do not believe its necessarily from hunting...

[Ohwildwon]

All valid points...I believe that the pathetic non native folks who actually call themselves hunters and shoot anything while being with natives need to be stopped...I talked to one of these poachers a couple months back and wish I was able to get his name....they need to make a law where any non native even in a vehicle or with a native while in possession of non legal game for non natives needs to be nailed...

Same thing goes with the salmon fishing crowd, good luck with that..:(

[Bugle M In]

I agree deer are good at camping out with weather or pressure.. I watched a group last week going on there hinds in heavy timber eating the moss of branches.
Love my Winchester your friend should call Francis are regional bio and talk location and sign.

JeLo I agree no whistle blowing but watch for sure I think it's just a cycle. But we should be leaving wintering timber standing..

Dana pushes on the prediction factor hard north of my house which he is a smart man... however logging alll of the lower elevation along Adam could have easily caused a superficial boom than bust... all exposed and no where to go. Good feed but no hiding 2 to 3 years high numbers than predict numbers build and bamboo dead zone

Agreed....I am already cringing at watching that winter timber being removed as well.
Nothing left up to for them to cut any longer around the parts I hunt.

[280 77]

I spend a considerable amount of time hunting the Kamloops area during hunting season and snowshoeing /hiking the kamloops bush in the winter and spring , this last year I've seen a ton of tracks , WOLF TRACKS . The hunting pressure is always heavy here but the populations of mule deer have always endured the pressure . Over the last 5-6 years the wolf population has skyrocketed , every year the wolf sign increases , this year i've seen wolf tracks on almost every outing . Last years snow pack in the wintering ranges was fairly significant and this years is a bit worse in the areas I frequent but we've had snowfalls like this before without a huge effect on the muley populations .
I am by no means a wolf hater they're beautiful animals , but in my opinion they are wreaking havoc on the moose , muley's and even the marmot population. I'm no expert but that's what I see. The timber harvest on wintering range certainly doesn't help.

[walks with deer]

Most does have there fawns around mothers day.,, I know a few deer yards that fill up when fawning.. I like to go in with the kids and watch from a respectful distance and shoot any fawn killers I see in process.. it's just a long ways to drag some times a stinky fat fawn killing bear.

[Treed]

I’ve been in the woods of kamloops for 40 years and have worked in the industry. They have logged the crap out of everything and roaded it. The last 4 years of hunting have been harder than I’ve ever had the areas I hunt up there. Habitat and access are huge issues in the region. My buddy up there has seen marten collapse on his lines while coyotes and wolves have gone up. We have overharvested in my opinion. The current UWR and OGMA are not sufficient to provide enough habitat combined the pressure from valley bottom development.

[northof49]

Find the wolf scat.....found the deer. Wolves Wolves everywhere.

[Bugle M In]

over 40 years as well, starting as a kid along side my dad at a very young age.
To me, the "biggest changes", no matter where you go it seems, but definitely in the Kamloops Region,
is logging with roads everywhere, development, and now the coup de grâce is the wolves.
As sad as it is, seeing winter range logging happening, I am glad to see that many here see the same thing also happening.
None of this, and I mean it, is due to over hunting/hunters, whether they shoot spikes or go late and hunt 4pt.
That part has always been around, and thing were fine, but the factors I 1st stated are the "big issues".

[walks with deer]

18 Years ago my dad and I found a area with extremely high ungulate density it was amazing the game we saw very few slashes and game everywhere.

as the area became more and more developed I started to concentrate my efforts on creeks because these areas held timber.

as more and more areas became logged the ungulate population plummeted.. some logging is good but a moonscape is not.

I am all for wood first initiatives but moon scape doesn't work. the increased access has also hurt the moose as the unregulated harvest was high..

as the area became more and more cleaned out any walks in the small stands of timber yielded wolves.

Bugle m iN I could not agree more.

[Jelvis]

-- Cutting the forest right down is like taking the roof off your house in the city in the winter the trees are a canopy and underneath the trees is less snow cuz it's lodged on the limbs.
- Mule deer need protection from wind and a place to hide and live and a full forest is one.
- Snow depth at different elevations can cause harm if trapped in a spot where the muley is held back too long the fawns legs too short

Space logging was good but the companies don't want to space log, too slow and expensive so it's mow it down.
-- Mule deer need south facing slopes too for warmth and feed.
Anyways lots to talk about mule deer and mowing their house down --

I'm not an anti logger my dad and I logged up Harrison. Logging if done accordingly can increase the ungulates population --
------------- Money is more important to (most people) than a deer. That's why people find it too expensive to get out with gas going to 2 dollars
Jello -- my opinions don't flip out ---------------------------------------> :-)

[Bugle M In]

One thing about mature timber, especially in the wintering areas down low, is there is a lot less snow for the ungulates, and in my opinion, better chances at hiding and escaping, as they don't have to contend with deep snow drifts and get stuck, which inevitably leads them to be downed by preds.
Also, I don't see the "lichen"? that grows on the mature trees, but not on new growth.
God, how many times after a windstorm, have I watched all the deer standing around, munching this stuff off of all the fresh limbs that have just broken of from the tress.
They love that stuff!, and you don't find it in cutblocks, and it's something they can access if the snow levels get high, as this stuff grows all over the tress...but you need that mature growth!
Again, I don't blame the forestry workers.....but this system that was implemented....moonscape is right.

[Iron Glove]

Have seen lots this winter around Tulameen.
Still tons of snow down low, saw a whole bunch of tracks in Town, on the KVR, along the River ..................

[Jelvis]

all animals wood have trouble in deep snow to run or chase a deer, fast enuff in most cases, yet (deer don't walk around in deep snow anyways)
-- deer move according to migration routes taken with their moms after the first year --
-- migration begins from up by Bonaparte lake and moves down all the way to Barriere area.
-- snow depth is what the deer watch, if it get's snowing good they start moving down to less snow.
Jel -- as long as the migration routes are not fully destroyed by slides the deer use them along edges of forests if logged.

[Jelvis]

-- I saw mule deer by my place this winter about five were together, five is the most I"ve seen ever in a group and I saw single ones and pairs. I live in a busy area and they come out at night.
- one was bigger then thee others looked like at least a three point in size. This was the biggest muley I've seen down this low yet. Usually yearlings and fawns.
Down on the valley floor looking for some kind of food, under apple trees and stuff. I saw one track that was heavy and a good size in the snow with thee others.
Jel -- we will see how the birthing goes soon --

[horshur]

The deer went into winter fat. Since I have been in north Thompson probably top three in condition. Deer numbers are not high so not much competition for available feed. It was an easy fall right into Christmas break here.
Predator numbers are more reasonable locally, historically comparable to the 90s IMO. So not feeling the panic.
I doubt the carrying capacity of the deer range has increased much the last dozen years except for reduced forage competition from reduced deer numbers. There has been some logging small patches on winter range the last 5 years which help with forage quality. Dry belt fir is slow to green up. We had a fire here but I don't expect it to be very productive but we will see,it was ground fire 70-90 % of time on SE and SW aspect steep dry slopes.
Deer numbers will be similar to last five years or so.

[Jelvis]

-- This is the most mule deer i've seen in twenty some years around here in winter. The group of five were lively tho not sluggish. Single deer and couples in good shape physically.
-- they had weight to last thru easy by the looks of the body. These deer close to Kamloops like up Westsiyde road are in good eating shape during the season.
I like that knowles Lake area for habitat and ridges
Jel -- it's always good mule deer in Kamloops as far as I've been here year after year, perfect habitat for mules.

[HarryToolips]

As much as I think the reduced bag limit for mule deer may be good for better buck:doe ratios in some areas that are low, I have still seen decent fawn recruitment, so in order to make more mule deer, I think the other primary drivers will have to be addressed..

[Jelvis]

Mule deer doe has a single fawn (the first year) she can give birth, after that it's twins, if decent feed. Mule deer doe would average two years old and older when bred.
-- all whitetails breed the first year, make out when their fawns, mule deer don't, only 3 percent wood breed when a fawn.
Jel -- that's why we need no whitetails here lol - mule country --