Wolves 2.0 a call to action

[whognu]

Dave (gcreek) would like to offer up his recent speech to the cattlemen's association as a step towards our collective fight towards controlling preds


he (because he is currently on a HBC timeout) would like to have this speech forwarded to every MLA and news outlet in bc (the target market) by as many people (us) as possible

i (chris) believe it is balanced, fair, inclusive and correctly identifies the problem

i believe it takes the spotlight off one 'problem' usergroup (hunters) and identifies it as 'everyones' problem

problem is that neither he (nor i) is a tech guy

neither of us are sure how to make it as easy as possible to be 'printable or forwardable' by all of us to the people that need to read this

we need your help to accomplish this; either suggestions how to do this, or possibly one of you (techies) could spearhead the actual logistics in getting it a wide audience

maybe it's as simple as a cut and paste yet maybe some of you have much more effective suggestions for distribution

if each and every one of us flood the 'market' over the next 2 week period i think that would have the biggest impact in government education/public perception

of note; this is in no way to detract from those currently trapping wolves, it is to start a second front with the express goal (hope) of educating the 'average' bc citizen and all the politicos

finally as a secondary effort, this could be sent to everyone of your friends to raise general awareness

help if you can

whognu

ps. imagine how the narrative would change if the first nations would create and distribute a similar letter.....



Good day fellow cattlemen and women and guests.
Today I would like to talk about an expense that is very difficult to deal with. It is caused by nature, swept under carpets by vote hungry politicians, and poorly managed,​​​ if I may say so​,​ ​ by our Associations and Min​​istry of Environment.
Predators! Where do we go from here?
2002 saw cattlemen in this province feel the need for a program​​m that would pay for losses and mitigate problem wildlife. In due time​,​ a very competent specialist was hired and problem predators for ranchers were being removed. In the first 4 years, this specialist removed nearly 500 wolves, a couple dozen bears and a handful of cougars. Then changes were made​ again, with​ different ad​​ministrators, different committees​ and ​different rules​. ​Finally, as I was told by a committee member, it was costing $4500 per wolf to have this specialist under contract.
I have difficulty believing that operator cost that much by himself as I now employ him​,​ and the most costly packs we have removed are in the $1500 range. The contractor is also employed by our neighbor and over the last 10 years they have removed over 110 wolves from our operations, at great expense to us​.​ ​Was administration really costing $3000 per wolf removed?
As a sidenote to this time period. The contractor removed the offending predators well enough from our range area that in 2008, we weaned a 102% calf crop for 300 cows.
Moving on, at our government's request, BCCA, MOE, BCTA decided it was best to go to a somewhat bounty system for a time. This apparently wasn't satisfactory to some, so it was decided to train anyone who was​interested in giving trapping a go. ​Sometimes the inexperienced trappers were able to get one wolf, ​or ​maybe 4​,​ but ​generally they could not remove the whole pack. Step one to fragmented packs and more wolves.
Then a few members of the COS decided they would take predator control back. It was quite unfair for anyone to expect a CO to come from a big city background, have three days training and expect results. In a short time, they dropped handling livestock complaints due to wolf depredation and dumped the whole responsibility back on BC Cattlemens Assoc. Their efforts of catching some wolves added to fragmented packs again.
Amongst all this, some producers have gotten frustrated enough to try a bit of mitigating on their own​. With the inability​ ​to take the time necessary due to trying to make a living in the ranching world, and/or without the necessary experience, more fragmentation has occurred.
Here we are today with another underfunded bounty system in place, sponsored by a government with no heart in supporting it, manned by a few specialists who can catch a whole pack, and more who simply can't. This operation has had 387 cattle not return from range since 2003. Reduced weight gains on calves, poorer conception rates and doctoring those animals that escaped being killed has likely cost us in the neighborhood of ¾ of a million dollars. Meanwhile, those that administrate and make plans for us haven’t missed a paycheque.
In the last 20 years, wolves have migrated to every corner of this province, the cattlemen are paying for it dearly and game herds have been decimated.​ That's a fact. Guide Outfitters are having their quotas cut, Resident Hunters have small chance of a draw and First Nations sustenance​ ​hunters are unable to feed their families. Hunters are the easiest to blame (and control), but they are hardly at fault.
The wolves are not alone. What has now become a somewhat protected specie, the grizzly bear, has taken a huge toll on our herd since 2003 also. When I was a boy 50 years ago at Horsefly it was very uncommon to hear of a grizzly in settled areas there. I hear now it is a common occurrence and many sows have multiple families. I am hearing of grizzly sightings in almost the whole province now too. They are far from the endangered ​"​Teddy​"​ media and extremists would have us believe.

BCCA has the only predator mitigation plan in the province. It is ridiculous to expect cattlemen to shoulder the burden on our own and quite frankly, it is not working.
Where to now? Our efforts to date surely aren't having much effect are they?
I strongly propose we stand together as Cattlemen, with Natives, Guide​ ​Outfitters, and Resident ​H​unters, and tell Government the time for studies has ended. No more collaring moose to find what has killed them​, ​no more gathering wolf scat to see what they have eaten,​ no more feel good programs that administrators garner funds from and cattlemen pay the costs and no more hoping the problem will go away because no one wants to talk about it. It is possible that if we stand together we may get results.
There are many factors that contribute to the current overpopulation of predators, and those factors certainly need to be considered for the long term. But the problem remains glaringly clear. The balance is completely out of kilter and we need to right it again.
Let's use these seemingly endless study funds to thin the ranks of these apex predators to sustainable levels before Canada's Serengeti is completely devoid of it's fauna. Those in power are managing wildlife​,​ and us​ all​, to death.

Respectfully, Dave Brace
Guichon Creek Ranch
Anahim Lake BC

[horshur]

Thanks Dave!

[IronNoggin]

http://bigshotsbc.ca/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/Pozitive.gif http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6851&stc=1

[f350ps]

The big question remains, why the EFF is he on a timeout, speaking the truth to much maybe and some snowflake had his feelings hurt! K

[emerson]

Very well presented. Sometimes the internet (especially forums) is a difficult way to communicate in a measured way. Likely what trips up Dave. Sometimes becoming good at something (like trapping) requires stepping back from quantifying life as a dollars and cents game. Proguide66 has some very good points. It's a tough call for most of us to re-orient our lives to become effective at trapping for the "greater good". Some folks do make significant sacrifices to do something we enjoy that makes a difference. Rewards often do come eventually, but the investment comes first. I am seriously considering it. Not a choice to make lightly.

[Gateholio]

The big question remains, why the EFF is he on a timeout, speaking the truth to much maybe and some snowflake had his feelings hurt! K

He's on a time out because he was asked several times to stop doing something, yet he kept on doing it. I think gcreek is a fine guy but people should remember only to call bluffs in poker games. I gave him several warnings and opportunities but he wanted to call me, but I just did what I said I was going to do.

[.264winmag]

Well done.
Permission to share?
Cheers

[f350ps]

He's on a time out because he was asked several times to stop doing something, yet he kept on doing it. I think gcreek is a fine guy but people should remember only to call bluffs in poker games. I gave him several warnings and opportunities but he wanted to call me, but I just did what I said I was going to do.
That's unfortunate as he's got more knowledge and more to offer than 90% of the people on here! K

[steveo]

That's unfortunate as he's got more knowledge and more to offer than 90% of the people on here! KI agree but look what he wrote on his time-out, pretty good if you ask me. I would ban him a couple more times if he keeps coming up with writings like that, lol.

[Gateholio]

Dave (gcreek) would like to offer up his recent speech to the cattlemen's association as a step towards our collective fight towards controlling preds


he (because he is currently on a HBC timeout) would like to have this speech forwarded to every MLA and news outlet in bc (the target market) by as many people (us) as possible

i (chris) believe it is balanced, fair, inclusive and correctly identifies the problem

i believe it takes the spotlight off one 'problem' usergroup (hunters) and identifies it as 'everyones' problem

problem is that neither he (nor i) is a tech guy

neither of us are sure how to make it as easy as possible to be 'printable or forwardable' by all of us to the people that need to read this

we need your help to accomplish this; either suggestions how to do this, or possibly one of you (techies) could spearhead the actual logistics in getting it a wide audience

maybe it's as simple as a cut and paste yet maybe some of you have much more effective suggestions for distribution

if each and every one of us flood the 'market' over the next 2 week period i think that would have the biggest impact in government education/public perception

of note; this is in no way to detract from those currently trapping wolves, it is to start a second front with the express goal (hope) of educating the 'average' bc citizen and all the politicos

finally as a secondary effort, this could be sent to everyone of your friends to raise general awareness

help if you can

whognu

ps. imagine how the narrative would change if the first nations would create and distribute a similar letter.....


Good day fellow cattlemen and women and guests.
Today I would like to talk about an expense that is very difficult to deal with. It is caused by nature, swept under carpets by vote hungry politicians, and poorly managed,​​​ if I may say so​,​ ​ by our Associations and Min​​istry of Environment.
Predators! Where do we go from here?
2002 saw cattlemen in this province feel the need for a program​​m that would pay for losses and mitigate problem wildlife. In due time​,​ a very competent specialist was hired and problem predators for ranchers were being removed. In the first 4 years, this specialist removed nearly 500 wolves, a couple dozen bears and a handful of cougars. Then changes were made​ again, with​ different ad​​ministrators, different committees​ and ​different rules​. ​Finally, as I was told by a committee member, it was costing $4500 per wolf to have this specialist under contract.
I have difficulty believing that operator cost that much by himself as I now employ him​,​ and the most costly packs we have removed are in the $1500 range. The contractor is also employed by our neighbor and over the last 10 years they have removed over 110 wolves from our operations, at great expense to us​.​ ​Was administration really costing $3000 per wolf removed?
As a sidenote to this time period. The contractor removed the offending predators well enough from our range area that in 2008, we weaned a 102% calf crop for 300 cows.
Moving on, at our government's request, BCCA, MOE, BCTA decided it was best to go to a somewhat bounty system for a time. This apparently wasn't satisfactory to some, so it was decided to train anyone who was​interested in giving trapping a go. ​Sometimes the inexperienced trappers were able to get one wolf, ​or ​maybe 4​,​ but ​generally they could not remove the whole pack. Step one to fragmented packs and more wolves.
Then a few members of the COS decided they would take predator control back. It was quite unfair for anyone to expect a CO to come from a big city background, have three days training and expect results. In a short time, they dropped handling livestock complaints due to wolf depredation and dumped the whole responsibility back on BC Cattlemens Assoc. Their efforts of catching some wolves added to fragmented packs again.
Amongst all this, some producers have gotten frustrated enough to try a bit of mitigating on their own​. With the inability​ ​to take the time necessary due to trying to make a living in the ranching world, and/or without the necessary experience, more fragmentation has occurred.
Here we are today with another underfunded bounty system in place, sponsored by a government with no heart in supporting it, manned by a few specialists who can catch a whole pack, and more who simply can't. This operation has had 387 cattle not return from range since 2003. Reduced weight gains on calves, poorer conception rates and doctoring those animals that escaped being killed has likely cost us in the neighborhood of ¾ of a million dollars. Meanwhile, those that administrate and make plans for us haven’t missed a paycheque.
In the last 20 years, wolves have migrated to every corner of this province, the cattlemen are paying for it dearly and game herds have been decimated.​ That's a fact. Guide Outfitters are having their quotas cut, Resident Hunters have small chance of a draw and First Nations sustenance​ ​hunters are unable to feed their families. Hunters are the easiest to blame (and control), but they are hardly at fault.
The wolves are not alone. What has now become a somewhat protected specie, the grizzly bear, has taken a huge toll on our herd since 2003 also. When I was a boy 50 years ago at Horsefly it was very uncommon to hear of a grizzly in settled areas there. I hear now it is a common occurrence and many sows have multiple families. I am hearing of grizzly sightings in almost the whole province now too. They are far from the endangered ​"​Teddy​"​ media and extremists would have us believe.

BCCA has the only predator mitigation plan in the province. It is ridiculous to expect cattlemen to shoulder the burden on our own and quite frankly, it is not working.
Where to now? Our efforts to date surely aren't having much effect are they?
I strongly propose we stand together as Cattlemen, with Natives, Guide​ ​Outfitters, and Resident ​H​unters, and tell Government the time for studies has ended. No more collaring moose to find what has killed them​, ​no more gathering wolf scat to see what they have eaten,​ no more feel good programs that administrators garner funds from and cattlemen pay the costs and no more hoping the problem will go away because no one wants to talk about it. It is possible that if we stand together we may get results.
There are many factors that contribute to the current overpopulation of predators, and those factors certainly need to be considered for the long term. But the problem remains glaringly clear. The balance is completely out of kilter and we need to right it again.
Let's use these seemingly endless study funds to thin the ranks of these apex predators to sustainable levels before Canada's Serengeti is completely devoid of it's fauna. Those in power are managing wildlife​,​ and us​ all​, to death.

Respectfully, Dave Brace
Guichon Creek Ranch
Anahim Lake BC





Great message. Seems like the Cattlemen Assoc should get on board with PG66 Grassroots movement. Everyone is on the same side- stop waiting for government to waffle around, fund some trappers and get it done!

[Gateholio]

That's unfortunate as he's got more knowledge and more to offer than 90% of the people on here! K

Yes, it's unfortunate that he refused to acknowledge a few clear warnings. He has lots to offer.

[Piperdown]

Well written Gcreek if you are ever down this way and need a place to rest your head, door is always open, i will be passing on this letter to many people.

[Deaddog]

Yes, it's unfortunate that he refused to acknowledge a few clear warnings. He has lots to offer.

seems these days it is not so much what you say but who you say it about. A few people seem to be on a pedastl when it comes to being criticized, any one doing so seems to get banned. it’s to bad as those banned have lots to offer and are offering solutions not the same old drivel

[HarryToolips]

The big question remains, why the EFF is he on a timeout, speaking the truth to much maybe and some snowflake had his feelings hurt! K
That's too bad, he does have lots of knowledge it seems..and very well written article Dave, let's hope this gets lots of publicity, and let's hope they listen...

[chilcotin hillbilly]

I know Dave and he is a stand up guy. Strong minded as a lot of us are. A lot of good point in his letter.

Throwing money at trappers who can actually clean out a pack I agree with, throwing it at a guy that can catch "a wolf or two" I don't. Catching the whole pack takes a lot of time which most trappers don't have.

[Ride Red]

Well written Gcreek, I’ll forward this on to some ranchers in my family too.

[speycaster]

Maybe if ranchers got off government welfare and paid a fair price per cow for grazing on public land, the average person in BC would have some sympathy for them. Otherwise losses to public animals (bear, wolves ) is a cost they must bear for ridiculously cheap rental of public land. I have offered ranchers the same price to rent their owned land as they pay for ours, but no one seems to want to accept my offer. that offer still stands.

[Wild one]

I know Dave and he is a stand up guy. Strong minded as a lot of us are. A lot of good point in his letter.

Throwing money at trappers who can actually clean out a pack I agree with, throwing it at a guy that can catch "a wolf or two" I don't. Catching the whole pack takes a lot of time which most trappers don't have.

I agree and disagree with what you are saying

No doubt wolf trapping is a skill and some trappers are way more effective then others. These skilled wolf trappers no doubt are giving the best bang for your buck.

That said donations to a trapper that is less skilled with wolves also has the possibility of giving the trapper motivation to improve his skills as a wolf trapper as well. This makes it more cost effective for him to increase his effort on wolf trapping as well. In my opinion it has the ability of creating a larger number of skilled wolf trappers

In my opinion it all depends on the individual trapper one invests in. If the trapper has the mind set of trying to put in the effort to step up out of respect for those donating that is the biggest thing.

If the trapper increases their effort highly skilled or not it is a positive. If it causes trappers to improve their wolf trapping skills long term BC will have more good wolf trappers

The skilled wolf trapper is going to have the biggest impact to start in their area. But if this program creates more skilled wolf trappers across BC long term even better. On a provincial level we need more skilled wolf trappers

[604Stalker]

Well written well presented. Now wheres it going to ? Anyone going to forward this msg its a clear statement. Except for where resident hunters fit in to the equasion. How do we contribute aside from using our voice which Im sure seceral members have found out from rude responces our mla's dont care about us if they had it their way they would close your rod and gun clubs and pave those spots you hunt and build highrises for investers who dont care what happends to BC wheres our voice in politics? Do we adress the party not in power who only cares now that they have lost their seats or do we send letters to the people who are in power who say we should leave horn and hide in the bush for those wolves to eat instead of packing them out for use?

[Wild one]

Maybe if ranchers got off government welfare and paid a fair price per cow for grazing on public land, the average person in BC would have some sympathy for them. Otherwise losses to public animals (bear, wolves ) is a cost they must bear for ridiculously cheap rental of public land. I have offered ranchers the same price to rent their owned land as they pay for ours, but no one seems to want to accept my offer. that offer still stands.

Understand your issue with grazing public land but on the issue of predator control ranchers and hunters are on the same page

Its wise to keep the issue of grazing and predators separate. Ranchers put $ into predator control and have been on this well before BC hunters. On the predator issues in BC hunters are better off to stand with ranchers to achieve greater results

Grazing is a different issue and should be debated separate

[Gateholio]

seems these days it is not so much what you say but who you say it about. A few people seem to be on a pedastl when it comes to being criticized, any one doing so seems to get banned. it’s to bad as those banned have lots to offer and are offering solutions not the same old drivel

We also ban people for having multiple HBC accounts Asp.

[Deaddog]

Ever think there might be more than one user in a house , your turning into a real piece of work. True clown

[panhead]

I know Dave well. Have for many years. Helped me personally and others I know a lot. He thinks things through clearly and speaks his mind. Treats people fairly and is a pleasure to be around. Knows the fauna around him like the back of his hand. And the ranching business. Can’t believe he got banned from here as he has a lot to offer and made this a better place. The question is ... will he be back? He might just speak his mind only once more on here which will be a loss for HBC. Time will tell ...

If you are young and not liberal, you don’t have a heart. If you are older and not conservative, you don’t have a brain.

[Gateholio]

Ever think there might be more than one user in a house , your turning into a real piece of work. True clown

I guess there are 2 users named Jim in your house. My apologies.

[Gateholio]

I agree and disagree with what you are saying

No doubt wolf trapping is a skill and some trappers are way more effective then others. These skilled wolf trappers no doubt are giving the best bang for your buck.

That said donations to a trapper that is less skilled with wolves also has the possibility of giving the trapper motivation to improve his skills as a wolf trapper as well. This makes it more cost effective for him to increase his effort on wolf trapping as well. In my opinion it has the ability of creating a larger number of skilled wolf trappers

In my opinion it all depends on the individual trapper one invests in. If the trapper has the mind set of trying to put in the effort to step up out of respect for those donating that is the biggest thing.

If the trapper increases their effort highly skilled or not it is a positive. If it causes trappers to improve their wolf trapping skills long term BC will have more good wolf trappers

The skilled wolf trapper is going to have the biggest impact to start in their area. But if this program creates more skilled wolf trappers across BC long term even better. On a provincial level we need more skilled wolf trappers

Absolutely. Nobody starts off an expert at anything. It’s an investment in the future to get more people learning

[Ferenc]

Is Kyle Lay in the picture anymore in regards to the wolf issue... he seems or seemed like he was one of the first to go after these predators.

[charlie_horse]

Gcreek mentioned many times that he hires the Lays and they sound very effective.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Is Kyle Lay in the picture anymore in regards to the wolf issue... he seems or seemed like he was one of the first to go after these predators.

Kyle and Dan Lay are the best in the business bar none.

[Wolfer88]

Food for thought. If anyone’s thinking now is the time to start planning action against wolves you’ve already missed the memo. By the time you gripe and complain, copy and paste, print and scan, your ungulates and domestics will already be dead. True wolf trappers saw the population numbers explode and utilized there traplines the best they could. Before everyone just believes statistics that others throw out there I will give you some facts. I am a well respected wolf trapper in the Kamloops/Thompson with experience. I have taken 50+ wolves between lPP program(livestock protection program) and my trapline in the last two years alone. I would like to point out that Dave is forgetting to let members know of the huge success that the LPP program has had since it was formed 2 years ago by the BCCA with govt funding. Just in 2017 alone we killed 219 wolves in BC and we are nearing the 500 mark in a lot less than 5 years. Almost half the time and cheaper than any other attempt. Everyone has an opinion on who is “bar none” the best wolf trappers but let’s not forget the efforts of us wolfers and the fact that there’s not only two guys who can wack a pile of wolves. I am a rancher, a contract wolf trapper, a trapper for the BCCA and have been a hunter my entire life and know the woods. Being a successful wolf trapper requires skills as well as natural instincts. I will say that only certain men can make a truly skilled wolf killer as it requires more than just putting iron in the ground or a cable in a tree. I like how lots of hunters are finally jumping on the wolf band wagon but more harm can come from a bunch of wannabes who think it would be “cool” to trap or shoot a wolf compared to an experienced wolf trapper who can kill a pack and not just educate the pack. So instead of complain, how about a cheers to us guys that are out there working our asses off to control wolf populations and let’s not get the opinion that nobody’s out there doing anything about it. We are.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Food for thought. If anyone’s thinking now is the time to start planning action against wolves you’ve already missed the memo. By the time you gripe and complain, copy and paste, print and scan, your ungulates and domestics will already be dead. True wolf trappers saw the population numbers explode and utilized there traplines the best they could. Before everyone just believes statistics that others throw out there I will give you some facts. I am a well respected wolf trapper in the Kamloops/Thompson with experience. I have taken 50+ wolves between lPP program(livestock protection program) and my trapline in the last two years alone. I would like to point out that Dave is forgetting to let members know of the huge success that the LPP program has had since it was formed 2 years ago by the BCCA with govt funding. Just in 2017 alone we killed 219 wolves in BC and we are nearing the 500 mark in a lot less than 5 years. Almost half the time and cheaper than any other attempt. Everyone has an opinion on who is “bar none” the best wolf trappers but let’s not forget the efforts of us wolfers and the fact that there’s not only two guys who can wack a pile of wolves. I am a rancher, a contract wolf trapper, a trapper for the BCCA and have been a hunter my entire life and know the woods. Being a successful wolf trapper requires skills as well as natural instincts. I will say that only certain men can make a truly skilled wolf killer as it requires more than just putting iron in the ground or a cable in a tree. I like how lots of hunters are finally jumping on the wolf band wagon but more harm can come from a bunch of wannabes who think it would be “cool” to trap or shoot a wolf compared to an experienced wolf trapper who can kill a pack and not just educate the pack. So instead of complain, how about a cheers to us guys that are out there working our asses off to control wolf populations and let’s not get the opinion that nobody’s out there doing anything about it. We are.

I agree with most everything you are saying. I am one of the LPP trappers butI will only travel 1/2 hour from my house as I way to busy to go any farther.
NOt all the LPP trappers are capable of taking out the whole pack, in fact only a handful of us are. 99% of trappers will never achieve the full pack removal.
Killing 3 out of 6 wolves still removes 3 mouths to feed for the next year cycle. As far as helping ungulates it makes a difference, as far as taking care of livestock killers it does very little.

[trapman]

Wolfer88 no disrespect but when you say "I like how lots of hunters are finally jumping on the wolf band wagon but more harm can come from a bunch of wannabes who think it would be “cool” to trap or shoot a wolf compared to an experienced wolf trapper who can kill a pack and not just educate the pack." Are you saying if a hunter sees a wolf he should not try and kill it. Or it a trapper catches 6 out of a pack of 7 he is doing more harm than good . Have you ever missed one or two from a pack or are you 100 % successful on all your trapping. Please don't but others down because you think you are better than them , they are we are trying the best we can and like Chilcotin Hillbilly said NOT all the LPP trappers can take out a whole pack

[srupp]

PROGUIDE"..CHILCOTIN Hillbilly, Trapman, Wolfer88", Lay gentlemen.Dave.
Thank you for your time, money, effort it is appreciated by some..
Srupp

[Ride Red]

Maybe if ranchers got off government welfare and paid a fair price per cow for grazing on public land, the average person in BC would have some sympathy for them. Otherwise losses to public animals (bear, wolves ) is a cost they must bear for ridiculously cheap rental of public land. I have offered ranchers the same price to rent their owned land as they pay for ours, but no one seems to want to accept my offer. that offer still stands.

Have you ever ranched or understand the costs involved in raising cattle? By your comments, it’s a “NO”.

[Ride Red]

From all us hunters who realize the good that everyone is doing to reduce wolf numbers, thank you.

[Wolfer88]

Trapman, nobody is 100% successful and I’m not putting anyone down. Are you an LPP trapper as well? Do you have high wolf populations where you live? What I’m saying is tough to get across I guess but some will understad. With the new social media craze that’s going on right now with trying to line up wolf killers all over the province I am a bit nervous and I think we all should be of something going horribly wrong. I love to trap and I would hate to lose it because some “wannabe” like I say buys a couple traps and illegally sets them and catches someones prized animal. (You can’t even butcher a god damn pig nowadays without it making the news)!!! Now he’s linked to the masses and we all make good old CBC news and potentially lose our rights to trap. And after seeing how personal opinions created our grizzly bear disaster it’s a sad reality that we have to almost keep what we do a secret in order to be successful. Of course if a hunter gets a chance to shoot a wolf he’s gonna blast it but most likely he’s more concerned about getting a good selfie with the wolf for his Facebook than he is about going out and trying to hunt down the rest of the pack.

[Salty]

Welcome and I'm glad to see you here Wolfer88 you're making some good points and seem to have your eyes wide open to the big picture, which is all to easy to loose track of. Best of luck with the rest of the season.

[Salty]

Dave (gcreek) would like to offer up his recent speech to the cattlemen's association as a step towards our collective fight towards controlling preds


he (because he is currently on a HBC timeout) would like to have this speech forwarded to every MLA and news outlet in bc (the target market) by as many people (us) as possible

i (chris) believe it is balanced, fair, inclusive and correctly identifies the problem

i believe it takes the spotlight off one 'problem' usergroup (hunters) and identifies it as 'everyones' problem

problem is that neither he (nor i) is a tech guy

neither of us are sure how to make it as easy as possible to be 'printable or forwardable' by all of us to the people that need to read this

we need your help to accomplish this; either suggestions how to do this, or possibly one of you (techies) could spearhead the actual logistics in getting it a wide audience

maybe it's as simple as a cut and paste yet maybe some of you have much more effective suggestions for distribution

if each and every one of us flood the 'market' over the next 2 week period i think that would have the biggest impact in government education/public perception

of note; this is in no way to detract from those currently trapping wolves, it is to start a second front with the express goal (hope) of educating the 'average' bc citizen and all the politicos

finally as a secondary effort, this could be sent to everyone of your friends to raise general awareness

help if you can

whognu

ps. imagine how the narrative would change if the first nations would create and distribute a similar letter.....


Good day fellow cattlemen and women and guests.
Today I would like to talk about an expense that is very difficult to deal with. It is caused by nature, swept under carpets by vote hungry politicians, and poorly managed,​​​ if I may say so​,​ ​ by our Associations and Min​​istry of Environment.
Predators! Where do we go from here?
2002 saw cattlemen in this province feel the need for a program​​m that would pay for losses and mitigate problem wildlife. In due time​,​ a very competent specialist was hired and problem predators for ranchers were being removed. In the first 4 years, this specialist removed nearly 500 wolves, a couple dozen bears and a handful of cougars. Then changes were made​ again, with​ different ad​​ministrators, different committees​ and ​different rules​. ​Finally, as I was told by a committee member, it was costing $4500 per wolf to have this specialist under contract.
I have difficulty believing that operator cost that much by himself as I now employ him​,​ and the most costly packs we have removed are in the $1500 range. The contractor is also employed by our neighbor and over the last 10 years they have removed over 110 wolves from our operations, at great expense to us​.​ ​Was administration really costing $3000 per wolf removed?
As a sidenote to this time period. The contractor removed the offending predators well enough from our range area that in 2008, we weaned a 102% calf crop for 300 cows.
Moving on, at our government's request, BCCA, MOE, BCTA decided it was best to go to a somewhat bounty system for a time. This apparently wasn't satisfactory to some, so it was decided to train anyone who was​interested in giving trapping a go. ​Sometimes the inexperienced trappers were able to get one wolf, ​or ​maybe 4​,​ but ​generally they could not remove the whole pack. Step one to fragmented packs and more wolves.
Then a few members of the COS decided they would take predator control back. It was quite unfair for anyone to expect a CO to come from a big city background, have three days training and expect results. In a short time, they dropped handling livestock complaints due to wolf depredation and dumped the whole responsibility back on BC Cattlemens Assoc. Their efforts of catching some wolves added to fragmented packs again.
Amongst all this, some producers have gotten frustrated enough to try a bit of mitigating on their own​. With the inability​ ​to take the time necessary due to trying to make a living in the ranching world, and/or without the necessary experience, more fragmentation has occurred.
Here we are today with another underfunded bounty system in place, sponsored by a government with no heart in supporting it, manned by a few specialists who can catch a whole pack, and more who simply can't. This operation has had 387 cattle not return from range since 2003. Reduced weight gains on calves, poorer conception rates and doctoring those animals that escaped being killed has likely cost us in the neighborhood of ¾ of a million dollars. Meanwhile, those that administrate and make plans for us haven’t missed a paycheque.
In the last 20 years, wolves have migrated to every corner of this province, the cattlemen are paying for it dearly and game herds have been decimated.​ That's a fact. Guide Outfitters are having their quotas cut, Resident Hunters have small chance of a draw and First Nations sustenance​ ​hunters are unable to feed their families. Hunters are the easiest to blame (and control), but they are hardly at fault.
The wolves are not alone. What has now become a somewhat protected specie, the grizzly bear, has taken a huge toll on our herd since 2003 also. When I was a boy 50 years ago at Horsefly it was very uncommon to hear of a grizzly in settled areas there. I hear now it is a common occurrence and many sows have multiple families. I am hearing of grizzly sightings in almost the whole province now too. They are far from the endangered ​"​Teddy​"​ media and extremists would have us believe.

BCCA has the only predator mitigation plan in the province. It is ridiculous to expect cattlemen to shoulder the burden on our own and quite frankly, it is not working.
Where to now? Our efforts to date surely aren't having much effect are they?
I strongly propose we stand together as Cattlemen, with Natives, Guide​ ​Outfitters, and Resident ​H​unters, and tell Government the time for studies has ended. No more collaring moose to find what has killed them​, ​no more gathering wolf scat to see what they have eaten,​ no more feel good programs that administrators garner funds from and cattlemen pay the costs and no more hoping the problem will go away because no one wants to talk about it. It is possible that if we stand together we may get results.
There are many factors that contribute to the current overpopulation of predators, and those factors certainly need to be considered for the long term. But the problem remains glaringly clear. The balance is completely out of kilter and we need to right it again.
Let's use these seemingly endless study funds to thin the ranks of these apex predators to sustainable levels before Canada's Serengeti is completely devoid of it's fauna. Those in power are managing wildlife​,​ and us​ all​, to death.

Respectfully, Dave Brace
Guichon Creek Ranch
Anahim Lake BC





Thanks for posting whognu and thanks for sharing gcreek, that's a well written spiel there. Best of luck

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Good episode on Best of the West this week. Deals with predation on cattle ranches right here in BC...

[LBM]

I agree and disagree with what you are saying

No doubt wolf trapping is a skill and some trappers are way more effective then others. These skilled wolf trappers no doubt are giving the best bang for your buck.

That said donations to a trapper that is less skilled with wolves also has the possibility of giving the trapper motivation to improve his skills as a wolf trapper as well. This makes it more cost effective for him to increase his effort on wolf trapping as well. In my opinion it has the ability of creating a larger number of skilled wolf trappers

In my opinion it all depends on the individual trapper one invests in. If the trapper has the mind set of trying to put in the effort to step up out of respect for those donating that is the biggest thing.

If the trapper increases their effort highly skilled or not it is a positive. If it causes trappers to improve their wolf trapping skills long term BC will have more good wolf trappers

The skilled wolf trapper is going to have the biggest impact to start in their area. But if this program creates more skilled wolf trappers across BC long term even better. On a provincial level we need more skilled wolf trappers

Sure people have to learn some where but as mentioned in the letter in some cases the wrong people are causing more of a problem. This can be from both lack of skill or methods used.
In past threads I think gcreek mentioned his trappers use legholds and they seem to have good success from what he says, except it sounds like he still has a problem Before he was banned he also mentioned about snares and the incidentals (non-target) that were caught such as calves and cougars, not sure how many in his area but in other areas there is quit a number of incidentals (non-target) animals caught. So don't think its right that so many non-target animals have to die because of unskilled trappers or the methods being used. If certain
trappers have the skills and methods to go in and just get wolves then let them do it.

[steveo]

Sure people have to learn some where but as mentioned in the letter in some cases the wrong people are causing more of a problem. This can be from both lack of skill or methods used.
In past threads I think gcreek mentioned his trappers use legholds and they seem to have good success from what he says, except it sounds like he still has a problem Before he was banned he also mentioned about snares and the incidentals (non-target) that were caught such as calves and cougars, not sure how many in his area but in other areas there is quit a number of incidentals (non-target) animals caught. So don't think its right that so many non-target animals have to die because of unskilled trappers or the methods being used. If certain
trappers have the skills and methods to go in and just get wolves then let them do it.I have an idea, why don't you show some of of these unskilled and green trappers how to properly set some snares and footholds so they don't catch so many non-target animals, would be a productive move to mentor someone.

[LBM]

I have an idea, why don't you show some of of these unskilled and green trappers how to properly set some snares and footholds so they don't catch so many non-target animals, would be a productive move to mentor someone.

Have talked to some, some just don't care, even offered to give some leg holds but again they don't care.

[steveo]

Have talked to some, some just don't care, even offered to give some leg holds but again they don't care.Well I care and I know many others that are willing to admit we don't know everything and always interested in learning new techniques with up to date equipment. If I can gather up a few guys will you give us some personal instruction and hand some of your trapping knowledge to us.

[LBM]

Well I care and I know many others that are willing to admit we don't know everything and always interested in learning new techniques with up to date equipment. If I can gather up a few guys will you give us some personal instruction and hand some of your trapping knowledge to us.

Use leg holds better chance of catching specific species (wolves) and gives the possible chance of releasing non-target species.
Learn about the species to be trapped and of others in the area. (preferred habitat, travel patterns and routes etc.
If trapping wolves trap were they are and travel don't just go dump a pile of bait out and string up snares and try to bring them to you.
wait till wolves are using the bait and set in there trails.
Don't set close to the bait. Its also been mentioned before don't need piles of bait.
Theres a few things for you.

[Wild one]

Sure people have to learn some where but as mentioned in the letter in some cases the wrong people are causing more of a problem. This can be from both lack of skill or methods used.
In past threads I think gcreek mentioned his trappers use legholds and they seem to have good success from what he says, except it sounds like he still has a problem Before he was banned he also mentioned about snares and the incidentals (non-target) that were caught such as calves and cougars, not sure how many in his area but in other areas there is quit a number of incidentals (non-target) animals caught. So don't think its right that so many non-target animals have to die because of unskilled trappers or the methods being used. If certain
trappers have the skills and methods to go in and just get wolves then let them do it.

A green trapper with the right mind set that goes out to educate themselves is the main factor when it comes to being valuable. Research and taking the time to listen to the experienced trappers is the key. Taking these steps can go along ways to prevent a lot of issues

A green trapper that runs out like a cowboy tossing random traps is where the issues really come in

It’s about the steps they take to get started

[Deadshot]

Buddy of mine had a ministry guy come out and show him the ropes on targeting wolves. If I recall properly, it only cost him a few of the first wolves he trapped. I can't see why they still wouldn't offer that up for aspiring wolf trappers.

[Wild one]

Buddy of mine had a ministry guy come out and show him the ropes on targeting wolves. If I recall properly, it only cost him a few of the first wolves he trapped. I can't see why they still wouldn't offer that up for aspiring wolf trappers.

Nothing beats joining a trapping local and getting to meet experienced trappers. This gives you a network of knowledgeable people to learn from or point you in the direction of who to learn from

[gcreek]

Wondering how many have shared my letter with others and to their MLA's and MP's?

We all need to work together on this.