Whitetail doe season... is it time to take end it?

[Greenthumbed]

I saw this advertisement in my local news paper this week.

http://www.nomoredeaddoes.ca/

I was wondering what others thought about the open season on WT does. Is it hurting the WT populations? I for one can speak to the fact that I saw very few WTs this passed season. Coupled with a few hard winters in the Kootenays along with increasing predator populations,maybe it is time to take it easy for a while.

I'm curious to hear what others think.

PS sorry I couldn't figure out how to make a quick link.

[limit time]

I saw this advertisement in my local news paper this week.

http://www.nomoredeaddoes.ca/

I was wondering what others thought about the open season on WT does. Is it hurting the WT populations? I for one can speak to the fact that I saw very few WTs this passed season. Coupled with a few hard winters in the Kootenays along with increasing predator populations,maybe it is time to take it easy for a while.

I'm curious to hear what others think.

PS sorry I couldn't figure out how to make a quick link.
......since you’ve seen less then it must be a problem. Maybe you should stop hunting them if you feel that way and start killing predators ?

[Rhyno]

There is so much misinformation out there and lack of understanding it hurts.

[Wild one]

My opinion WT doe season is good in areas with strong WT populations way better for buck vs doe ratios. WT under pressure get cagey and this will make sightings lower. It most likely has had an impact on numbers but is creating a stronger WT population in areas with large WT populations

WT doe seasons with low WT numbers I do not support and see them as a waste of a wildlife resource

[Everett]

A bunch of freaking morons there is no shortage of WT deer in the east kootenay just a lot of lazy hunters who will not walk 50 feet from there truck to hunt a deer.

[Island Idiots]

That ad is disgusting. It has been discussed an another thread. I saw it as well. According to the biologist there is no issue with population.
Its time we stop playing wildlife managers and let the scientists do it. We need to ensure the government funds them and their reccomendations; ie- habitat improvement, and predator control.

[Greenthumbed]

......since you’ve seen less then it must be a problem. Maybe you should stop hunting them if you feel that way and start killing predators ?
I never have taken a whitetail doe or actively hunted one. I did take a Black bear this season on the predator side.
I'm not actually on either side of the fence on this issue as of yet.
The website states that the doe season is an outdated regulation and that the populations are no longer the same as they were when it was first implemented.
I am curious what others think on the matter.

[Island Idiots]

BTW I can't walk very far and I had no issue harvesting a nice young doe. Tasted dam good too!

[lovemywinchester]

Put a game cam out where you think there are low numbers of WT. You will be shocked at the amount of does living there that you never see in the day.

[IronNoggin]

... I am curious what others think on the matter.

Discussed extensively in this thread: http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?142352-Warning-Anti-hunting-hunter-campaign-started

Conclusion with Biologist input: Self serving bunch of lies purported to support a hidden local agenda.

Have a read if you're still interested.

Case Closed.
Nog

[Greenthumbed]

Discussed extensively in this thread: http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?142352-Warning-Anti-hunting-hunter-campaign-started

Conclusion with Biologist input: Self serving bunch of lies purported to support a hidden local agenda.

Have a read if you're still interested.

Case Closed.
Nog

Thanks for the link, Nog. I missed that thread. I did read through it. I appreciated the responses from the Wildlife biologists that Scott G. emailed

Agreed. Case closed
Chad

[.264winmag]

My neck of the woods is littered with rat wt, least amount of wt I've seen around in my 7yrs here. Yet to whack a doe and I get my 2 bucks every year out region 4,8. A guy could whack a doe or 2 every year wouldn't make a difference on population. More thinning of them would have helped lower the dog explosion we now have on our hands. Eating deer steady right behind the house, and I've yet to lay eyes on one...

[Salty]

Ya they get skittish when hunted, shocker but its true. lol The numbers are still there after quite a few seasons of GOS WT doe hunting, in fact they continue to colonise new areas throughout the province. But they're not standing in the ditch feeding as you drive by them any more I guess that's just too hard to deal with for the few who think their half a dozen road hunts a year make them ungulate experts and many times more knowledgeable than biologists that spend their whole careers studying deer, and have decades of data at their finger tips.

[carnivore]

A bunch of freaking morons there is no shortage of WT deer in the east kootenay just a lot of lazy hunters who will not walk 50 feet from there truck to hunt a deer.

I agree 100%. As far as I am concerned stand hunting and or still hunting is the only way to go. There are states in the US that only allow you to take a WT buck after you have taken an
Antlerless WT. They are just to cagey and spooky for road hunting. I have found that WT does are getting just as wary as WT bucks.

[HarryToolips]

A bunch of freaking morons there is no shortage of WT deer in the east kootenay just a lot of lazy hunters who will not walk 50 feet from there truck to hunt a deer.
Yup.....it's getting real old....the whitetail have adapted, most people haven't...

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I have found that WT does are getting just as wary as WT bucks.

This.....


Yup.....it's getting real old....the whitetail have adapted, most people haven't...

......and this.

[swampthing]

I think they should open the season for these coarse deer even more!! Its our muleys that are in trouble in places.

[boxhitch]

.......My neck of the woods is littered with rat wt, least amount of wt I've seen around in my 7yrs here. .....No! now you just set yourself up for a world of hurt! you won't get away with calling them rrrr....
the r word.......they have feelings too

[.264winmag]

No! now you just set yourself up for a world of hurt! you won't get away with calling them rrrr....
the r word.......they have feelings too
But they're so tiny! Tasty though. They are some smart however, and will always adapt.

[boxhitch]

And whats with that dead does website. wonder how their poll is turning out

[limit time]

No! now you just set yourself up for a world of hurt! you won't get away with calling them rrrr....
the r word.......they have feelings too

Unless they identify ?

[hunter1947]

Never have liked female GOS on any game animals period..

[hunter1947]

Never have liked female GOS on any game animals period never have shot the female species but that's my choice....

[280 77]

I don't target does when hunting but if I come across one I may shoot it for meat and to slow the invasion down . In my neck of the woods there are a couple of places that I used to see wt does quite often . A year after the wt doe season opened up i would see very few during hunting season . I started thinking holy s..t it didn't take long to get rid of them . fast forward to late February and guess what , they magically re-appeared . Now after a few seasons they are definitely more evasive all year long , but they've learnt quickly and are still there , you just have to look a little harder.

[Wild one]

I think they should open the season for these coarse deer even more!! Its our muleys that are in trouble in places.

Yes the management plan of kill WT to increase MD numbers worked so well it was abandoned in Alberta lol

I know this koolaid was pushed hard in BC

declining mule deer are do to other issues

[Ourea]

I don't target does when hunting but if I come across one I may shoot it for meat and to slow the invasion down . In my neck of the woods there are a couple of places that I used to see wt does quite often . A year after the wt doe season opened up i would see very few during hunting season . I started thinking holy s..t it didn't take long to get rid of them . fast forward to late February and guess what , they magically re-appeared . Now after a few seasons they are definitely more evasive all year long , but they've learnt quickly and are still there , you just have to look a little harder.

What?
The most studied ungulate in North America that keeps expanding their range and out competing all their competitors regardless of environment. How is that possible?
kidding aside.
They adapt, they survive, it's what they do.

[Everett]

Never have liked female GOS on any game animals period never have shot the female species but that's my choice....

Sorry Wayne but your opinion is wrong and its not to late to educate yourself to the ways of sound game management:p I expect to see a picture of you next year with a 200lb doe

[Everett]

Yes the management plan of kill WT to increase MD numbers worked so well it was abandoned in Alberta lol

I know this koolaid was pushed hard in BC

declining mule deer are do to other issues

Actually mule deer are responding nicely to the reduction in WT deer in the east kootenays and numbers are on upswing for mule deer.

[Wild one]

Actually mule deer are responding nicely to the reduction in WT deer in the east kootenays and numbers are on upswing for mule deer.

I ? If that is the reason for MD improvement

It was run in Alberta even more of a liberal WT harvest combined with restricted MD harvest and it fails miserably. MU 339 ran ran a WT season of 2 doe tags combined with 3rd tag that could be used buck or doe season ran mid September to end of November. Lowered WT numbers did nothing for MD. Was run in other MUs I am less familiar with and abandoned again do to poor results. Ran way longer then BCs wt doe seasons existence

This really makes me wonder what other factors could be at play in the east koots

[scoutlt1]

A link for some light reading...


http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/management-issues/docs/white_tailed_deer_prov_review.pdf

[Fisher-Dude]

I ? If that is the reason for MD improvement

It was run in Alberta even more of a liberal WT harvest combined with restricted MD harvest and it fails miserably. MU 339 ran ran a WT season of 2 doe tags combined with 3rd tag that could be used buck or doe season ran mid September to end of November. Lowered WT numbers did nothing for MD. Was run in other MUs I am less familiar with and abandoned again do to poor results. Ran way longer then BCs wt doe seasons existence

This really makes me wonder what other factors could be at play in the east koots

No parallel whatsoever for habitat nor predation in AB compared to BC for sympatric whitetail and mule deer.

If you like AB so much, well, you know what to do. ;)

[bownut]

A link for some light reading...


http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/management-issues/docs/white_tailed_deer_prov_review.pdf

I wonder what the harvest /100 days was from 2014-2017?

[Wild one]

No parallel whatsoever for habitat nor predation in AB compared to BC for sympatric whitetail and mule deer.

If you like AB so much, well, you know what to do. ;)

Habitat is very different in east koots to the area I gave as an example and not doubting that as a factor. Predation comparison I think you have no clue might want to do some research lol

Area I mentioned high predator numbers coyote, wolf and cougar. World record wolf is from that area even lol

Difference between me and you show me results my ears are open. Truth is I am already curious about if this is achieving results and if it does I will be open to this management holding merit in the correct habitat for mule deer.

You see the FD I am open to the possibility I am wrong. You should try it sometime lol

As for going back to Alberta it’s a tough call do I go or should I stay and mess with you getting asked by others if I am willing to get more involved in BC often. Maybe you could deal with me in person

You can teach me about wolf predation sound like fun lol

[horshur]

A link for some light reading...


http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/management-issues/docs/white_tailed_deer_prov_review.pdf

Do they have a chart that compares weight. What am I getting at? Compare buck harvest of past and what weight ended up in the freezer to recent stats of what actual increase in groceries for the average household.. what is the return on the season? You could have more animals harvested but less meat in the freezer. Like this season my buddy got a couple whitetail does..my one whitetail buck was 1/3 more pounds of meat then his two does...something else to think about when they are blowing sunshine...

[dana]

No parallel whatsoever for habitat nor predation in AB compared to BC for sympatric whitetail and mule deer.

If you like AB so much, well, you know what to do. ;)

This coming from a guy that thinks Idaho and WA are easily compared to BC. That being said, maybe if you like those places so much FD, you know what to do!

[Fisher-Dude]

I wonder what the harvest /100 days was from 2014-2017?

Region 8, which you are likely most interested in:

Kills/100 days 2010 - 2013 was:

4.70
4.91
4.71

Statistical average = 4.49

Kills/100 days 2014-2016 was:

4.12
5.01
4.14

Statistical average = 4.43

The first 3 years and the second 3 years of the season are only 1.3% different. That's proof that the season has NOT changed hunter success rates over the 6 years, nor does it indicate any population decline.

I know it's not what you were hoping to see, but perhaps you should rejoice in a sustainable, successful hunting opportunity for a change.

[dana]

Do they have a chart that compares weight. What am I getting at? Compare buck harvest of past and what weight ended up in the freezer to recent stats of what actual increase in groceries for the average household.. what is the return on the season? You could have more animals harvested but less meat in the freezer. Like this season my buddy got a couple whitetail does..my one whitetail buck was 1/3 more pounds of meat then his two does...something else to think about when they are blowing sunshine...

Lets be truthful here. My 2 does together were slightly more meat than your whitetail buck. Haha. But...put my 2 does and your whitetail buck together, they still would be shy of weight compared to your muley buck.

[Wild one]

This coming from a guy that thinks Idaho and WA are easily compared to BC. That being said, maybe if you like those places so much FD, you know what to do!

Its not his fault he only gets the info GG gives him

Probably thinks as soon as you cross the BC Alberta border it’s nothing but farmland and prairie and there is no way to provs could share part of the same habitat

[dougan]

Lets be truthful here. My 2 does together were slightly more meat than your whitetail buck. Haha. But...put my 2 does and your whitetail buck together, they still would be shy of weight compared to your muley buck. great to see you back from Holliday Dana . Need more like yourself on HBC

[HarryToolips]

Actually mule deer are responding nicely to the reduction in WT deer in the east kootenays and numbers are on upswing for mule deer.
That is consistent with my observations of areas I frequent in the WK.....

[338win mag]

Actually mule deer are responding nicely to the reduction in WT deer in the east kootenays and numbers are on upswing for mule deer.
Please post the link for the data.

[LBM]

This coming from a guy that thinks Idaho and WA are easily compared to BC. That being said, maybe if you like those places so much FD, you know what to do!

Was going to bring up the same point.

[LBM]

Actually mule deer are responding nicely to the reduction in WT deer in the east kootenays and numbers are on upswing for mule deer.

Maybe in some MUs they are doing better but in many they are not and the whitetail numbers are down. According to one of the links the reduction of whitetail (doe season)
wasn't done to help in the declining population of mule deer. Actually were lots of the whitetail were hunted/harvested were not in typical mule deer habitat.

[Wild one]

Can someone provide a count for the koots showing an increase in MD numbers?

I am not doubting the 2 members observations. Just looking for confirmation of these observations

Even with this WT management proven a failure elsewhere I am open to the possibility under the correct habitat conditions it may hold merit. Many parts of BC with this WT management plan MD populations are still declining

Under habitat of hilly heavy jack pine forest( far from farmland or prairie FD) on the edge of the foothills it failed. Predator numbers high as well. It’s fact it failed here

So is it working in the koots and what factors are playing a roll in its success here when it’s a failure elsewhere?

Is there other factors why MD are increasing if numbers show an increase?

With many parts of the koots holding habitat better suited to MD I am open to this being a factor creating a difference between success and failure.

Always said habitat would be the big factor on the future range of these two species

So can someone here provide facts of an increase of MD in at least part of the koot?

So FD I can give example of this management plans failure and I am still open to facts showing it successful under the right habitat conditions. Can you prove it successful I am listening?

[ramcam]

Actually mule deer are responding nicely to the reduction in WT deer in the east kootenays and numbers are on upswing for mule deer.
The East Kootenays are a little bigger than your back yard Everett, the Elkvalley is in a downward trend with Elk, whitetail and mule deer so knocking off the doe killing for a while would
really help the population. Where the population can handle it its a good management tool but not used correctly it is by no means a good management idea.

[Wild one]

Oh before you start I support WT doe harvest in the koots but only because I see it sustainable and see it good for buck vs doe ratios

So far from anti doe harvest

[Fisher-Dude]

The East Kootenays are a little bigger than your back yard Everett, the Elkvalley is in a downward trend with Elk, whitetail and mule deer so knocking off the doe killing for a while would
really help the population. Where the population can handle it its a good management tool but not used correctly it is by no means a good management idea.

Help what population?

If you increase WT population, you'll pay the price in MD populations, and elk to some extent too.

One thing that's missing in all our discussions is what we want to manage for. If we don't define that, then any path we take is a blind one.

If we decide we want to manage for a really high WT population, that's fine. But in doing so, we need to understand that we'll have to accept fewer mule deer as a result. Trying to manage one species in isolation of the rest of the ecosystem is a complete failure.

[hardnocks]

I would shoot a dry doe if i seen one . but some of those fawns that come from twins and triplets in oct. still have spots . so what are you going to shoot a 50lb fawn or the mother .
i went and hunted in the yahk in oct.i am not a road hunter so i put on many miles . seen maybe 60 does and fawns could have shot some . but most were on the dead run . i kinda wondered how many doe`s and fawns were wounded by guys shooting at running deer .

[Bugle M In]

I haven't seen a drop in WT #'s in my opinion, as it seems about the same year after year.
The one thing I have noticed, and I believe it's due to Preds #'s increasing, is that the deer seem to be hiding a bit more, a little skittish then in the past I guess you could say, and for days, it can look like #'s are down, and then suddenly after a good dump of rain, they are running across the road all over the place.
Doubt there is a serious issue up there as of yet, but then again, I choose not to hunt Does.

[Onesock]

Wild One I guess you are not getting the info you asked for. I wonder why? Lol.

[Ourea]

I would shoot a dry doe if i seen one . but some of those fawns that come from twins and triplets in oct. still have spots . so what are you going to shoot a 50lb fawn or the mother .
i went and hunted in the yahk in oct.i am not a road hunter so i put on many miles . seen maybe 60 does and fawns could have shot some . but most were on the dead run . i kinda wondered how many doe`s and fawns were wounded by guys shooting at running deer .

^^^ another example of not hunting WT effectively then making assumptions (no disrespect intended).
Another hunter could have approached the same area(s) differently.
Sit.

Walking around trying to fool a WT's radar......you lose 9 out of 10 times....and I am being kind with the 9 out of 10 assessment since we can toss lead at does. I don't hunt the Kootenays but hear such conflicting experiences.

A contact of mine was sharing his 80 yr old dad's latest Kootenay hunt. That batch of cronies were 5 for 5 yet some that hunted the same area are outspoken over the lack of deer. Somewhere there is a consensus.

[Wild one]

Wild One I guess you are not getting the info you asked for. I wonder why? Lol.

Because he does not have it lol

I did however get a factor through PM that could be why it might be improving mule deer numbers in some areas

being told the winter range is very poor in the area. So in a case like this removal of a portion of the WT (any ungulate species really)population could open up feed to other ungulates increasing nutrition to survive winter. This would not be a WT issue but instead the winter range is too poor for overall ungulate populations in the area. Basically trading one ungulate species for another with no overall increase in ungulate population.

So habitat issue this holds merit.

But if you look back to when the WT management plan was put into place it was to help limit predation( cougar mainly)on mule deer by lowering WT numbers. This theory is the epic fail and why this program failed in other areas attempted because the winter range was much stronger. The too much meat on the table theory is flawed.

Remember that too much meat on the table phrase FD it is yours and your reason for backing the management plan in the name of limiting predation

Under the premise of poor winter range trading part of one ungulate species to increase the level of winter nutrition to improve winter survival of another holds logic

To limit predation by removing a secondary prey species to limit predation on the primary prey species fail

Seems we maybe getting success for reasons outside of what the management theory intended. Sounds like a habitat issue not a WT issue and mule deer being the weaker species they are impacted most

FD don’t go claiming this is what the management plan intended read it and debated it with GG to death

[Fisher-Dude]

Read this.

http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/pdf/10.1139/z02-025

That's why.

[2chodi]

In 2016 it was estimated that there were 13298 white-tailed deer harvested in BC with approximately 8400 bucks and 4900 does.

Source Big Game Harvest stats 1976-2016

In 2016 it was estimated that there were 40, 606 white-tailed deer harvested in AB with approximately 22,275 bucks and 16,523 does and 1808 juveniles.

Source https://mywildalberta.ca/hunting/documents/WhiteTailedDeer-2016HunterHarvest-May2017.pdf

Some MUs in AB have compulsory inspection for CWD.

[Wild one]

Read this.

http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/pdf/10.1139/z02-025

That's why.


Not even going to bother reading it and debating it AGAIN lmao

Evidence against this theory and history of failure of this style of management I am not going to bother lol

[bownut]

Region 8, which you are likely most interested in:

Kills/100 days 2010 - 2013 was:

4.70
4.91
4.71

Statistical average = 4.49

Kills/100 days 2014-2016 was:

4.12
5.01
4.14

Statistical average = 4.43

The first 3 years and the second 3 years of the season are only 1.3% different. That's proof that the season has NOT changed hunter success rates over the 6 years, nor does it indicate any population decline.

I know it's not what you were hoping to see, but perhaps you should rejoice in a sustainable, successful hunting opportunity for a change.

Your correct I was hoping to see it getting better. With all the flaws in our Harvest Data, and Population counts due to lack of funding, it leaves us to question how accurate it is.
With the increasing Wolf Population and lack of Habitat that we all can agree on, why doesn't the Harvest reflect it?
Math just does't seem to add up.
But hey where's my science, all I hear is how well it is out there. Everyone should take a close look at their tags.

Meat cutters in the Okanagan have told me the average weight is way down also, are we just hammering away at our stockers?
I don't know what to think anymore, 1.3% you say.

[Wild one]

In 2016 it was estimated that there were 13298 white-tailed deer harvested in BC with approximately 8400 bucks and 4900 does.

Source Big Game Harvest stats 1976-2016

In 2016 it was estimated that there were 40, 606 white-tailed deer harvested in AB with approximately 22,275 bucks and 16,523 does and 1808 juveniles.

Source https://mywildalberta.ca/hunting/documents/WhiteTailedDeer-2016HunterHarvest-May2017.pdf

Some MUs in AB have compulsory inspection for CWD.

Yes familiar with all of this

Alberta WT populations are well beyond BCs and also a varied management system ranging from highly restrictive to extremely liberal. You are missing lots of info when using Alberta’s WT harvest as a comparison. Management for WT in Alberta is very population oriented

Look into the MUs in the 400s see how there managed and there WT populations.

Liberal WT harvest in strong WT population and doe harvest is a good thing. I am a supporter of it but liberal harvest opportunity on WT in low populations I am not

CWD management in eastern Alberta a lot of it is to limit populations at risk of CWD not because it’s present . Look into where it is actually present and documented cases

Nothing wrong with comparison from out side BC but apply it correctly population wise and show the varied management according to populations

[Wild one]

As for CWD you will also find mule deer are the ones that are at higher risk

Have even heard that is where it originated but have not looked into any evidence supporting it

[2chodi]

Yes familiar with all of this

Alberta WT populations are well beyond BCs and also a varied management system ranging from highly restrictive to extremely liberal. You are missing lots of info when using Alberta’s WT harvest as a comparison. Management for WT in Alberta is very population oriented

Look into the MUs in the 400s see how there managed and there WT populations.



Yes the data in the tables provided by AB shows this. Interesting that the doe harvest ratio in both provinces if very close.

[2chodi]

As for CWD you will also find mule deer are the ones that are at higher risk

Have even heard that is where it originated but have not looked into any evidence supporting it

Yes, Cait Nelson, BCs wildlife health biologist, in her CWD presentation indicated that there is evidence that mule deer bucks are at higher risk.

US government info indicates that you are correct re the origins https://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/disease_information/chronic_wasting_disease/frequently_asked_questions.jsp

[Wild one]

Yes the data in the tables provided by AB shows this. Interesting that the doe harvest ration in both provinces if very close.

If you see the population of WT in the 400s they are still stronger then a lot of BCs WT populations

All for keeping healthy buck vs doe ratios this is something BC was failing at with WT in the past. This is where I support the WT doe harvest. How BC manages its lower WT populations I don’t support

In my opinion WT doe harvest is good for the herd health in BCs larger populations. I see no issues with a slight drop in doe numbers in these areas. I also have experience hunting pressured WT does so know some reports of less WT being seen is because does got smarter

Now If BC gets smarter about mule deer ratios that would be nice to see. But I doubt it because the only reason we are seeing it with WT is a by product of another goal

[Wild one]

Overall BCs issues with deer management are down to 2 major issues and not just inregards to WT but all species

1) apply blanket style management vs adjusting for habitat and populations

2) poor buck vs doe ratios

This has been BCs style of deer management for ever( slight changes in regs but same results) and until this is realized as flawed nothing will improve

Habitat is an overall game populations issue that is why it’s not included

[Ourea]

Overall BCs issues with deer management are down to 2 major issues and not just inregards to WT but all species

1) apply blanket style management vs adjusting for habitat and populations

2) poor buck vs doe ratios

This has been BCs style of deer management for ever( slight changes in regs but same results) and until this is realized as flawed nothing will improve

Habitat is an overall game populations issue that is why it’s not included

Funding and pushing public awareness is the fix.

[Wild one]

Funding and pushing public awareness is the fix.

Agree but public awareness is going to be tough with the on going propaganda pushing the same old theories

This is something that is costing support big picture wise there is a lack of trust that this will not be dumping $ into the same management style

Funding is good but without different goals it is the same path carrying a bigger wallet

[Fisher-Dude]

We have >90% pregnancy rates among our deer populations. We can get >90% pregnancy rates with much lower buck:doe ratios than we manage to (20:100), too. Both species will give you >90% pregnancy rates with ratios below 10:100.

Are people saying there are "poor" buck to doe ratios because they want a bunch of bucks wandering around to shoot? Or are they concerned about buck:doe ratios that would cause a conservation issue with deer populations?

[Wild one]

We have >90% pregnancy rates among our deer populations. We can get >90% pregnancy rates with much lower buck:doe ratios than we manage to (20:100), too. Both species will give you >90% pregnancy rates with ratios below 10:100.

Are people saying there are "poor" buck to doe ratios because they want a bunch of bucks wandering around to shoot? Or are they concerned about buck:doe ratios that would cause a conservation issue with deer populations?

Do some reasearch on the health of fawns increasing when does are bred earlier resulting in fawns being born earlier. Higher buck vs doe ratios result in does bred earlier this is one of the reasons you will find management for higher ratios

Stronger fawns going into winter higher survival rate

More to it then just number of does bred

[wideopenthrottle]

and strong does well fed over the winter will have healthier and maybe even more fawns...if you want to make some observations about deer herd health ask yourself how many twins and triplets you are seeing in the spring

[Wild one]

and strong does well fed over the winter will have healthier and maybe even more fawns...if you want to make some observations about deer herd health ask yourself how many twins and triplets you are seeing in the spring

What I am stating is a deer management practice used outside of BC

This is not my personal theory it has be studied and put into practice. The claim is stronger survival rate of yearlings and overall health. Not stated in study but could see does benifiting as well as they will have more time to rebuild their own health after giving birth. This is giving both fawns and does more time to build fat reserves during months of food sources of highest nutritional value available

Stronger health and bigger reserves going into winter VS slightly more nutrition over winter

Really not a crazy theory

often hear claims of fawns being born late in BC as well


Continue down the same management theories in BC or consider other options that’s the call that BC needs to make

My opinion you cannot expect different results doing the same thing over and over.

[Islandeer]

^^^ another example of not hunting WT effectively then making assumptions (no disrespect intended).
Another hunter could have approached the same area(s) differently.
Sit.

Walking around trying to fool a WT's radar......you lose 9 out of 10 times....and I am being kind with the 9 out of 10 assessment since we can toss lead at does. I don't hunt the Kootenays but hear such conflicting experiences.

A contact of mine was sharing his 80 yr old dad's latest Kootenay hunt. That batch of cronies were 5 for 5 yet some that hunted the same area are outspoken over the lack of deer. Somewhere there is a consensus.

Share similar experiences, our family has hunted a well known EK whitey area for 35 yrs, have seen huge population swings, the most dramatic was after 1996 winter kill. Remember that one? We had a hard time finding leh does that next season!
Then they rebounded for about 10 years or so until the elk took off which softened numbers slightly. So we would see up to 100 does a day then.

Jumping forward to the last 5 yrs our camp averages 3 to 4 whitey bucks in the 3.5 yr class, the occasional bigger one.


Our mule deer family hunt averages one to two 4 pts a season.

Note, our deer are earned the hard way, sitting or still hunting timber.

[Fisher-Dude]

We should note that Alberta, that panacea of deer breeding, has 40% of its land privately held, with hunting at the discretion of the landowner, and with huge tracts of land under agriculture providing a smorgasbord of deer feed.

Compare that to BC, which has 6% of land held privately, with the other 94% held by the Crown for purposes other than growing crops that feed sojourning wildlife.

Is it any wonder that the harvest and management regimes are different between the two jurisdictions?

[Islandeer]

Habitat and predation.

The rest of this crap is b.s.

[Wild one]

We should note that Alberta, that panacea of deer breeding, has 40% of its land privately held, with hunting at the discretion of the landowner, and with huge tracts of land under agriculture providing a smorgasbord of deer feed.

Compare that to BC, which has 6% of land held privately, with the other 94% held by the Crown for purposes other than growing crops that feed sojourning wildlife.

Is it any wonder that the harvest and management regimes are different between the two jurisdictions?

Go experience Alberta’s crown land I actually proffer crowland out there for WT and most hunting overall. Western Alberta is very similar to eastern BC. Never ending timber and Rockies

East of hwy 2 way different and I don’t use the east as a comparison

Not talking just Alberta on ratios keep trying lots of other place in North America keeping higher ratios


Same path for BC is your choice this is clear

[Seeker]

What I am stating is a deer management practice used outside of BC

This is not my personal theory it has be studied and put into practice. The claim is stronger survival rate of yearlings and overall health. Not stated in study but could see does benifiting as well as they will have more time to rebuild their own health after giving birth. This is giving both fawns and does more time to build fat reserves during months of food sources of highest nutritional value available

Stronger health and bigger reserves going into winter VS slightly more nutrition over winter

Really not a crazy theory

often hear claims of fawns being born late in BC as well


Continue down the same management theories in BC or consider other options that’s the call that BC needs to make

My opinion you cannot expect different results doing the same thing over and over.

Personally I am more eager to give habitat enhancement and predator control more of an opportunity than changing a widely accepted buck:doe ratio, but if shown convincing evidence of what is claimed here, I would consider it as well. Could you please direct me to the study that showed a difference in % of does bred early vs late based on buck:doe ratios. Where in North America do they manage to 25-30 bucks:100 does?

[sawmill]

A bunch of freaking morons there is no shortage of WT deer in the east kootenay just a lot of lazy hunters who will not walk 50 feet from there truck to hunt a deer.
Listen to this man. I see all kinds of does in season, I will not shoot one with fawns but I ALWAYS find a big fat single. No shortage of Whities, they are just learning to stay low. Way less bucks though than 14 years ago.

[Bugle M In]

So, are some here saying WT #'s are down???? Really???
See no reason to be changing anything as of yet in Regards to WT.

[Weatherby Fan]

Personally I am more eager to give habitat enhancement and predator control more of an opportunity than changing a widely accepted buck:doe ratio, but if shown convincing evidence of what is claimed here, I would consider it as well. Could you please direct me to the study that showed a difference in % of does bred early vs late based on buck:doe ratios. Where in North America do they manage to 25-30 bucks:100 does?

This is a study I would love to see in print also

[hardnocks]

^^^ another example of not hunting WT effectively then making assumptions (no disrespect intended).
Another hunter could have approached the same area(s) differently.
Sit.

Walking around trying to fool a WT's radar......you lose 9 out of 10 times....and I am being kind with the 9 out of 10 assessment since we can toss lead at does. I don't hunt the Kootenays but hear such conflicting experiences.

A contact of mine was sharing his 80 yr old dad's latest Kootenay hunt. That batch of cronies were 5 for 5 yet some that hunted the same area are outspoken over the lack of deer. Somewhere there is a consensus.
well both me and my partner came home with bucks..so this hunter didn`t just stomp around .

[dana]

^^^ another example of not hunting WT effectively then making assumptions (no disrespect intended).
Another hunter could have approached the same area(s) differently.
Sit.

Walking around trying to fool a WT's radar......you lose 9 out of 10 times....and I am being kind with the 9 out of 10 assessment since we can toss lead at does. I don't hunt the Kootenays but hear such conflicting experiences. .

i guess it depends on the hunter. I have zero patience for sitting longer than 15 mins. I hike a lot and have never had a problem seeing them in the thick stuff, and them giving me an easy stading shot at under 40 yards. we don't have many whitetails in this neck of the woods but I seem to always fill at least 1 tag, many times 2 tags. Way easier to hunt than timber muleys. ;)

[walks with deer]

i agree with dana without bait..i harvest 2 whitetail bucks a year in region 3..mostly hiking thick secound growth.

[walks with deer]

not saying oureas system doesnt work we just csnt access fruit like you can in the north thompson.

[RackStar]

People need to get out of their truck. Some of my “hotspots” are viewed by most as not good spots with no deer.
Have seen way more whitetails this year then ever. No shortage what so ever. If it’s not my last tag and i see a doe with no fawns it’s going in my freezer.

The people with no meat in their freezer at this time of the year need to ADAPT and quit complaining of low deer numbers. I have seen more deer this year then any of my hunting seasons.

[walks with deer]

the only time i sit for whitetails is around nov 18th watching a whitey doe ferd that is clearly in heat..now thats bait.worth sitting on.

[walks with deer]

ferd -feed

[Dannybuoy]

i guess it depends on the hunter. I have zero patience for sitting longer than 15 mins. I hike a lot and have never had a problem seeing them in the thick stuff, and them giving me an easy stading shot at under 40 yards. we don't have many whitetails in this neck of the woods but I seem to always fill at least 1 tag, many times 2 tags. Way easier to hunt than timber muleys. ;) Absolutely , same in the okanagan ... nice to spot them first but if I jump a wt buck , they are fairly predictable and almost always get an easy shot .... just not near as many around now .... time to let the does make a few more for a few years ...

[Ourea]

Absolutely , same in the okanagan ... nice to spot them first but if I jump a wt buck , they are fairly predictable and almost always get an easy shot .... just not near as many around now .... time to let the does make a few more for a few years ...

They will keep having twins and triplets.
They will only become harder to hunt, because that's how WT have learned to survive and thrive.

[dana]

They will keep having twins and triplets.
They will only become harder to hunt, because that's how WT have learned to survive and thrive.

I saw 5 mature whitetail does walking across a large field last week. Way out in the middle, way away from the timber edge of the field. What is one take away from this sighting? Hmmm, not a single fawn around. Many times twins and triplets don't keep on growing, surviving or thriving. Many many times they end up as wolf scat. Think about that. 5 does should have at least 2 fawns. That is 10 deer that should be part of a herd. Nope! Zero out of the 10 survived. As those wolf weary does age, there will come a point when they die as well. Now, zero deer left in your herd. That, my friend, is what is happening in most of the province right now. Zero recruitment. And you deceive yourself thinking all is fine. I am still seeing mature deer. And then one day, there are no mature deer because they all died, if not from predators, from old age.

[Ourea]

I saw 5 mature whitetail does walking across a large field last week. Way out in the middle, way away from the timber edge of the field. What is one take away from this sighting? Hmmm, not a single fawn around. Many times twins and triplets don't keep on growing, surviving or thriving. Many many times they end up as wolf scat. Think about that. 5 does should have at least 2 fawns. That is 10 deer that should be part of a herd. Nope! Zero out of the 10 survived. As those wolf weary does age, there will come a point when they die as well. Now, zero deer left in your herd. That, my friend, is what is happening in most of the province right now. Zero recruitment. And you deceive yourself thinking all is fine. I am still seeing mature deer. And then one day, there are no mature deer because they all died, if not from predators, from old age.

When I have cam evidence and field observations, in my local WT area, I will support your claims.
That is not the case to date however.

I seldom find a doe without a fawn, most have twins.
I run 20 plus cams and I am in the field several days a week dana, so the intel is pretty solid.

Wolves are new arrivals here and are scratching in this area.
I will be the first to wave the flag when I see recruitment failing.
I will be last to jump to conclusions.

Wolves are here.
They are sticking to the 3000 ft + line for the most part.
We have bighorn sheep here.
There lies a major concern.

Will see how this plays out.

[dana]

When I have cam evidence and field observations, in my local WT area, I will support your claims.
That is not the case to date however.

I seldom find a doe without a fawn, most have twins.
I run 20 plus cams and I am in the field several days a week dana, so the intel is pretty solid.

Wolves are new arrivals here and are scratching in this area.
I will be the first to wave the flag when I see recruitment failing.
I will be last to jump to conclusions.

Wolves are here.
They are sticking to the 3000 ft + line for the most part.
We have bighorn sheep here.
There lies a major concern.

Will see how this plays out.

My friend they are coming! I was first waving the flag back in the mid 2000's. No one listened. I was mocked and ridiculed. They came and they came and they came. For numerous years I believed we could weather the storm as I still saw mature wildlife. Then, in an instant, that belief was replaced by an gut wrenching realization that I was very very wrong. The collapse had taken years but it really wasn't dramatic until it was complete. Please, heed my words, and get working on those dogs. Now!

[bownut]

Wonder what happens when those sleds start playing around at the lower elevations, ask your Bio buddy what happens then. Seems like theirs more to the declines with every passing season.

[bownut]

Read this.

http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/pdf/10.1139/z02-025

That's why.

Great article, did you happen to read the last part on Page 566, seems like the same results as the Alternate Prey Study used for Revelstoke.

Inconclusive needing further study.

[Walking Buffalo]

Yes familiar with all of this

Alberta WT populations are well beyond BCs and also a varied management system ranging from highly restrictive to extremely liberal. You are missing lots of info when using Alberta’s WT harvest as a comparison. Management for WT in Alberta is very population oriented

Look into the MUs in the 400s see how there managed and there WT populations.

Liberal WT harvest in strong WT population and doe harvest is a good thing. I am a supporter of it but liberal harvest opportunity on WT in low populations I am not

CWD management in eastern Alberta a lot of it is to limit populations at risk of CWD not because it’s present . Look into where it is actually present and documented cases

Nothing wrong with comparison from out side BC but apply it correctly population wise and show the varied management according to populations

For the most part, yes. However the orientation is usually related to population control, rarely to increase populations.
There just is no need.

Our 400's are becoming a predator pit wasteland. Elk are near extinction, same with moose and Mulies. WT are hanging on.
The 300's and 500's are a better comparison today. Elk, moose and mulies are experiencing population crashes, Wt are doing fine.
Bios decided to try the scorched earth theory to starve wolves, excessive moose tags and double supplemental WT doe tags.
We still have wolves and whitetails....



We should note that Alberta, that panacea of deer breeding, has 40% of its land privately held, with hunting at the discretion of the landowner, and with huge tracts of land under agriculture providing a smorgasbord of deer feed.

Compare that to BC, which has 6% of land held privately, with the other 94% held by the Crown for purposes other than growing crops that feed sojourning wildlife.

Is it any wonder that the harvest and management regimes are different between the two jurisdictions?


This is a nearsighted comment.
There are plenty of Alberta management units that do not fit your description.
There are many areas comparable to BC.



My friend they are coming! I was first waving the flag back in the mid 2000's. No one listened. I was mocked and ridiculed. They came and they came and they came. For numerous years I believed we could weather the storm as I still saw mature wildlife. Then, in an instant, that belief was replaced by an gut wrenching realization that I was very very wrong. The collapse had taken years but it really wasn't dramatic until it was complete. Please, heed my words, and get working on those dogs. Now!

Our experience in Alberta reflects this image. When these dogs become established, Wolf management takes years of effort before significant effects are realized with higher prey populations. It is much better to strangle the problem before it takes a big bite off our plate.

[HarryToolips]

Can someone provide a count for the koots showing an increase in MD numbers?

I am not doubting the 2 members observations. Just looking for confirmation of these observations

Even with this WT management proven a failure elsewhere I am open to the possibility under the correct habitat conditions it may hold merit. Many parts of BC with this WT management plan MD populations are still declining

Under habitat of hilly heavy jack pine forest( far from farmland or prairie FD) on the edge of the foothills it failed. Predator numbers high as well. It’s fact it failed here

So is it working in the koots and what factors are playing a roll in its success here when it’s a failure elsewhere?

Is there other factors why MD are increasing if numbers show an increase?

With many parts of the koots holding habitat better suited to MD I am open to this being a factor creating a difference between success and failure.

Always said habitat would be the big factor on the future range of these two species

So can someone here provide facts of an increase of MD in at least part of the koot?

So FD I can give example of this management plans failure and I am still open to facts showing it successful under the right habitat conditions. Can you prove it successful I am listening?
Look under region 4 mule deer....
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/management-issues/docs/2017_Provincial_Ungulate_Numbers_Sept_18_Final.pdf

[HarryToolips]

I would shoot a dry doe if i seen one . but some of those fawns that come from twins and triplets in oct. still have spots . so what are you going to shoot a 50lb fawn or the mother .
i went and hunted in the yahk in oct.i am not a road hunter so i put on many miles . seen maybe 60 does and fawns could have shot some . but most were on the dead run . i kinda wondered how many doe`s and fawns were wounded by guys shooting at running deer .
I was in the same area and saw the same thing, in that neck of the woods they ain't hurting thats for sure..

[HarryToolips]

When I have cam evidence and field observations, in my local WT area, I will support your claims.
That is not the case to date however.

I seldom find a doe without a fawn, most have twins.
I run 20 plus cams and I am in the field several days a week dana, so the intel is pretty solid.

Wolves are new arrivals here and are scratching in this area.
I will be the first to wave the flag when I see recruitment failing.
I will be last to jump to conclusions.

Wolves are here.
They are sticking to the 3000 ft + line for the most part.
We have bighorn sheep here.
There lies a major concern.

Will see how this plays out.
Consistent with my observations as well....bu Dana is right, we need to start knocking wolves...

[Dannybuoy]

Look under region 4 mule deer....
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/management-issues/docs/2017_Provincial_Ungulate_Numbers_Sept_18_Final.pdf best example of managing to zero ..... moose region 4 stable ?? Mule deer region 4 stable ?? Hahahaha .... thats some funny stuff right there .... lower the standard to achieve the goal .

[Fisher-Dude]

Region 4 mule deer are listed as stable to increasing.

That's far preferable to what happened to them during the years of limited whitetail hunting.

Harry actually took the time to read and understand the figures. Others should do the same.

[walks with deer]

the north thompson has very low new recruits..same with the peace and a lot of region 8...
niche pockets are still holding mature animals but fawns and calves are hard to find.
line beetle didnt help with no cover left and roads every where...i do not understand the cycle but i think pred numbers are actually going down as are ungulate population province wide is hittin a crash.

[Ourea]

My friend they are coming! I was first waving the flag back in the mid 2000's. No one listened. I was mocked and ridiculed. They came and they came and they came. For numerous years I believed we could weather the storm as I still saw mature wildlife. Then, in an instant, that belief was replaced by an gut wrenching realization that I was very very wrong. The collapse had taken years but it really wasn't dramatic until it was complete. Please, heed my words, and get working on those dogs. Now!


They are here.
What I find interesting is that the new influx of wolves don't seem to use lower elevations ......yet.

[Ourea]

the north thompson has very low new recruits..same with the peace and a lot of region 8...
niche pockets are still holding mature animals but fawns and calves are hard to find.
line beetle didnt help with no cover left and roads every where...i do not understand the cycle but i think pred numbers are actually going down as are ungulate population province wide is hittin a crash.

Your comment flies in the face of endless evidence, field observation and airiel counts.
Preds are increasing, particularly wolves.

An average hike for me goes like this when checking cams....
Coyote tracks......cougar tracks.....wolf tracks....some deer tracks.
That dynamic was different 4 yrs ago.

[dana]

Your comment flies in the face of endless evidence, field observation and airiel counts.
Preds are increasing, particularly wolves.

An average hike for me goes like this when checking cams....
Coyote tracks......cougar tracks.....wolf tracks....some deer tracks.
That dynamic was different 4 yrs ago.

Ourea, i remember several years ago you getting a ton of wolf action on your trail cams for elk in the Koots. Just curious of what things are like there now. How did the elk fare? Did the wolves finally move on? Last I recall you were still finding trophy bulls but most had flipped to being nocturnal. Did they finally flip back to daylight allowing for good hunting again? I have been out of the loop for several years now. Curious how things turned out for ya.

[Bugle M In]

Ourea, i remember several years ago you getting a ton of wolf action on your trail cams for elk in the Koots. Just curious of what things are like there now. How did the elk fare? Did the wolves finally move on? Last I recall you were still finding trophy bulls but most had flipped to being nocturnal. Did they finally flip back to daylight allowing for good hunting again? I have been out of the loop for several years now. Curious how things turned out for ya.

Curious about that as well?
Regardless of what LBM says, I still see wolves in the area I hunt, although it is the EK (not sure if Ourea is WK?)
They haven't moved on, but they seem to wash in and out like waves, up and then down the valley, then back up.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Curious about that as well?
Regardless of what LBM says, I still see wolves in the area I hunt, although it is the EK (not sure if Ourea is WK?)
They haven't moved on, but they seem to wash in and out like waves, up and then down the valley, then back up.


Ourea, i remember several years ago you getting a ton of wolf action on your trail cams for elk in the Koots. Just curious of what things are like there now. How did the elk fare? Did the wolves finally move on? Last I recall you were still finding trophy bulls but most had flipped to being nocturnal. Did they finally flip back to daylight allowing for good hunting again? I have been out of the loop for several years now. Curious how things turned out for ya.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?100008-Death-Of-A-Valley/page25

[HarryToolips]

the north thompson has very low new recruits..same with the peace and a lot of region 8...
niche pockets are still holding mature animals but fawns and calves are hard to find.
line beetle didnt help with no cover left and roads every where...i do not understand the cycle but i think pred numbers are actually going down as are ungulate population province wide is hittin a crash.
What part of region 8? I'm seeing good whitetail recruitment everywhere I look....

[LBM]

Curious about that as well?
Regardless of what LBM says, I still see wolves in the area I hunt, although it is the EK (not sure if Ourea is WK?)
So what did LBM say, besides that there is trappers in there setting for wolves which you say there is not.
They haven't moved on, but they seem to wash in and out like waves, up and then down the valley, then back up.
I see now what ourea means by people trying to fracture the hunting community. Or what there motive is.

[Bugle M In]

I see now what ourea means by people trying to fracture the hunting community. Or what there motive is.


Haven't you got the message yet...didn't people tell you....
Your on the "Ignore List"! (by quite a few members now...FYI)
Congratulations!!!....you came in 2nd!...right behind Jassmine!!

[LBM]

Haven't you got the message yet...didn't people tell you....
Your on the "Ignore List"! (by quite a few members now...FYI)
Congratulations!!!....you came in 2nd!...right behind Jassmine!!
Looks like some people don't like the truth when they hear it, or caught in there BS , I Think it was gcreek that used that quote.

[hunter1947]

Sorry Wayne but your opinion is wrong and its not to late to educate yourself to the ways of sound game management:p I expect to see a picture of you next year with a 200lb doe


Its not wrong look at it this way humans don't shoot females the females give birth and look at the numbers of humans same as nature I don't agree and so much for our game management they have done nothing to improve any of out game animals infarct they the management has made it worse the way I see it :mrgreen: it's called miss management and over my many years of hunting its always been this way..

[hunter1947]

Just clue into Yukon mountain man the tv series there on the same page as I am they always say they never kill females because the females are what keeps
the recruitment going I am on the same page as they are

[hunter1947]

Forget all this bullshit about doe to buck ratio it's bullshit I don't buy it one buck will keep on the move and the buck will pregnant many does and if the does are being shot it might work out to just one year many hundreds of deer over that year will be lost in one region meaning recruitment lets face it no one is out there to know how this unfolds including me..

[338win mag]

Just clue into Yukon mountain man the tv series there on the same page as I am they always say they never kill females because the females are what keeps
the recruitment going I am on the same page as they are
That is how the massive buffalo herds were diminished.

[hunter1947]

That is how the massive buffalo herds were diminished.

And I guess that's how everything is diminished hey ?? and if you look back on history you will see that the Buffalo where slaughterer for the hides

[LBM]

Forget all this bullshit about doe to buck ratio it's bullshit I don't buy it one buck will keep on the move and the buck will pregnant many does and if the does are being shot it might work out to just one year many hundreds of deer over that year will be lost in one region meaning recruitment lets face it no one is out there to know how this unfolds including me..

Sure one buck can run around breeding does but can be very hard on the buck sending him into the winter in a weakened /worn out state and depending on the winter could not fair to well. May be more benifical to have a better buck to doe ratio.

[338win mag]

And I guess that's how everything is diminished hey ?? and if you look back on history you will see that the Buffalo where slaughterer for the hides
It was the killing of the females hunter1947

[Wild one]

Forget all this bullshit about doe to buck ratio it's bullshit I don't buy it one buck will keep on the move and the buck will pregnant many does and if the does are being shot it might work out to just one year many hundreds of deer over that year will be lost in one region meaning recruitment lets face it no one is out there to know how this unfolds including me..


Check out the effects of low buck to doe ratios in Colorado

Truth is there is so many theories/studies on ratios and contritions on correct levels. Goals in North America range from 15/100 to 45/100( some even higher)and everywhere has there reasons. Found 1 study that says they have no effect on herd health others that claim increased survival to deer ( fawns,does,and buck) increase in body weight over years of higher buck ratios.

So some think ratios are not important others think they can have a large impact on herd health all have scientific data supporting theories

Done debating everyone can go do their own research and reach their own opinions

[HarryToolips]

Forget all this bullshit about doe to buck ratio it's bullshit I don't buy it one buck will keep on the move and the buck will pregnant many does and if the does are being shot it might work out to just one year many hundreds of deer over that year will be lost in one region meaning recruitment lets face it no one is out there to know how this unfolds including me..
Read whitetail advantage it's a good, interesting book....whitetails are totally different from other ungulates....is anyone in your neck of the woods seeing many wt does with triple fawns??? If so, then the populations may be under stress from too many does being harvested..

[Bugle M In]

As long as most of the Does I see during hunting season have fawns, I am okay with how it is being managed here.
Yes, every little area in the province can be different, but, I have not seen any "low fawn #'s" in my walks.
Generally see about 80% of Does with fawns, so, I assume from that, that there is enough bucks around to get the breeding done.
What happens to these fawns post hunting season til springtime is what concerns me...starvation or preds??
The only way to tell is to have counts done come springtime I suppose, not just winter counts.
And then count fawns after they have been dropped, but I suspect that is hard to do, and thus counts in winter are the most typical time of year.
I still think Fawn to Doe ratio counts are more important, as it answers the buck to doe ratio (breeding ability).
But, having enough Bucks to get it done is important, and if we are low in overall deer in the area, then yes, Doe hunting should stop, as Does like H47 say, are then very important to growing more deer.
But, is Buck to Doe ratio, or even Fawn to Doe ratio an issue for the most part in BC???
Or is it the other factors we have been talking/arguing about in all the threads.

[HarryToolips]

Sure one buck can run around breeding does but can be very hard on the buck sending him into the winter in a weakened /worn out state and depending on the winter could not fair to well. May be more benifical to have a better buck to doe ratio.
And better overall fawn recruitment and genetic biodiversity...people say blah blah science but science is why we don't live in caves and why we have the modern world we have today....it has also been applied to game management, just look at the accomplishments of our neighbors to the South with their scientific game management...

[hunter1947]

Read whitetail advantage it's a good, interesting book....whitetails are totally different from other ungulates....is anyone in your neck of the woods seeing many wt does with triple fawns??? If so, then the populations may be under stress from too many does being harvested..


This is not the case in the area I hunt the predators take out most of the fawns just after being born in the early year I see the remains of fawns out in the wild when out and about
how can we balance any game animals when there are so many wolf,, cats,,coyotes,,bears present ?,,then there is winter kills on fawns big time if they make it though
the winter months ,,in the past few years where there has been doe season open for WT deer I have noticed the the numbers have dropped big time at least in the area where I hunt
predator problem is one of the declines as for over hunted saw more rd hunters field hunters in 2017 in the area I hunt then ever before.

Everything is all out of wack out in the nature world there are so many things that upset the balance of animals in this day and age..

[hunter1947]

Check out the effects of low buck to doe ratios in Colorado

Truth is there is so many theories/studies on ratios and contritions on correct levels. Goals in North America range from 15/100 to 45/100( some even higher)and everywhere has there reasons. Found 1 study that says they have no effect on herd health others that claim increased survival to deer ( fawns,does,and buck) increase in body weight over years of higher buck ratios.

So some think ratios are not important others think they can have a large impact on herd health all have scientific data supporting theories

Done debating everyone can go do their own research and reach their own opinions

Can't compare one country to another

[hunter1947]

It was the killing of the females hunter1947

They took both male and female bison did not matter to them and if it is true that they did target only female bison then that the reason they almost depleted the herds meaning no new recruitment..

[blacklab]

You want to see an example of the miss management of deer in this province, have a look at region 3.
By their numbers region 3, 6500- 9000 white tail deer and you can shoot 2 antlerless.
Compared to region 4, 38000-62000, 1 antlerless limit. Region 8, 31000-44000, 1 antlerless limit.
If somebody wants to start a petition similar to the one in the Kootenays, you will get my support.
You folks in the regions 4 and 8 better hope the wildlife manager from Kamloops doesn't decide to transfer your way.
By the way in case you didn't notice region 3 just reduced their mule deer bag limit and are part of the change to 1 mule deer in the interior regions.

[.264winmag]

Even at a 2/yr doe season the wt will survive around my place. If the wolves can't clean em out huntin 24-7 the out of towners sure as heck ain't gonna clean em out in a month long season ;)
They are survivors, much more adaptable then the mule deer.

[wideopenthrottle]

Check out the effects of low buck to doe ratios in Colorado

Truth is there is so many theories/studies on ratios and contritions on correct levels. Goals in North America range from 15/100 to 45/100( some even higher)and everywhere has there reasons. Found 1 study that says they have no effect on herd health others that claim increased survival to deer ( fawns,does,and buck) increase in body weight over years of higher buck ratios.

So some think ratios are not important others think they can have a large impact on herd health all have scientific data supporting theories

Done debating everyone can go do their own research and reach their own opinions


it would make sense that the difficulty of the terrain (slope, snow, distance) would all factor in on how much energy it takes a buck to cover the ground to find the does....obviously this would have a huge effect on how many does he can breed...

[338win mag]

They took both male and female bison did not matter to them and if it is true that they did target only female bison then that the reason they almost depleted the herds meaning no new recruitment..
My family were buffalo hunters several generations were employed by the HBC to do so, the females were harvested for their meat and were targeted as such, the males for the robes, the robes were also used from the females but, the males were preferred for that.
Its pretty simple to figure out how to take out/control the growth/decline of any species I am aware of.

I dont target does anymore, I used to when they were on leh, but since they have been gos, I dont bother, others can do so and I have no problem with it as there are lots of them it seems in some area's, not my area however.

[ghost]

I am seeing them regularily in the kamloops area. Had a buck run through my yard 4 nights ago. Most of my sightings are early in the morning before it is light.I have never targeted them specifly like tree stands or blinds,so as far as hunting I dont know how abundant they are.I suspect that from the numbers i see that they are doing okay.

[hunter1947]

Its one big viscus circle out there in nature right now for all prey animals and predator animals I am no expert but I see whats going on out there
and its hard to fix all we can do is give input on our thoughts whats right or wrong but its not fixing it is it get worse


PS,,,,,, one thing I would love to see is a GOS year around on wolfs where the wolf population in regions that are high in numbers would help somewhat..

[Dannybuoy]

Even at a 2/yr doe season the wt will survive around my place. If the wolves can't clean em out huntin 24-7 the out of towners sure as heck ain't gonna clean em out in a month long season ;)
They are survivors, much more adaptable then the mule deer. Two things wrong about this , first all the wt in your area are only still there because they are on private property in the "ville" and two , the wolves have just started to show up .... give it a few years ...

[Fisher-Dude]

Just clue into Yukon mountain man the tv series there on the same page as I am they always say they never kill females because the females are what keeps
the recruitment going I am on the same page as they are

Sorry Wayne, but I'll go with the professional opinion of every wildlife biologist in North America, including Geist, instead of some clowns on TV that seem to fall off a roof, get their snowmobile stuck, or chop off a finger on every show.

[bighornbob]

You want to see an example of the miss management of deer in this province, have a look at region 3.
By their numbers region 3, 6500- 9000 white tail deer and you can shoot 2 antlerless.
Compared to region 4, 38000-62000, 1 antlerless limit. Region 8, 31000-44000, 1 antlerless limit.
If somebody wants to start a petition similar to the one in the Kootenays, you will get my support.
You folks in the regions 4 and 8 better hope the wildlife manager from Kamloops doesn't decide to transfer your way.
By the way in case you didn't notice region 3 just reduced their mule deer bag limit and are part of the change to 1 mule deer in the interior regions.

Maybe the wildlife managers are trying to keep the whitetail numbers in region 3 less then 10,000 animals. How is that mismanaging the heard? I'm not sure of the management goals though. Do you know what the management goals of the ministry are? How many whitetails do they want in region 3?

BHB

[Salty]

Two things wrong about this , first all the wt in your area are only still there because they are on private property in the "ville" and two , the wolves have just started to show up .... give it a few years ...

You tell him how it is Danny he only has more current boots on the ground experience there than about anyone and I'm not talking about private property.

[Dannybuoy]

You tell him how it is Danny he only has more current boots on the ground experience there than about anyone and I'm not talking about private property. Now you are just being silly .... Back to the topic .

[.264winmag]

Two things wrong about this , first all the wt in your area are only still there because they are on private property in the "ville" and two , the wolves have just started to show up .... give it a few years ...

Funny thing about wt, if they don't want to be seen they won't be. Hang a cam up anywhere on crown land around there and bam there's nocturnal wt on it. Hunting em is a different ball game. Once the preds show up they go into survival mode. Ya lots of fawns get eaten, then lots of twins n triplets show up in the spring. They are rabbits, big tasty handsome rabbits.

[.264winmag]

Not bad for 6 years

https://i.imgur.com/uqwiGv6.jpg

[Bugle M In]

From my understanding, in some parts, WT's aren't really supposed to be there anyways.
The end up competing with Mule Deer, and I think they say Mule Deer usually lose that battle.
So, if that's the case, I am fine with taking out WT's so the don't over expand their territories.
I know I sure don't want to see loss of Mule Deer, just to have WT's only in the area one day.
Also, think about it, the WT's must be pretty resilient species, as the "have expanded" into areas they "did not exist in before" (atleast not in a long long time, if ever).
If they were being" hunted to 0", they never would have expanded in the first place.
As for R4 and R8, I can speak or every nook and cranny, nor can many, if any here, but I do agree, in some areas the wolves and other Preds are onto WT's for food for sure, as I have seen it in the scat, and others watching the dogs chase the WT's, especially in the winter months.
If the Bio's come back and say they we are running low on WT's in R4/R8, then I will accept that fact, and things should be changed accordingly.
I do know that the WT's in the area I hunt, can be hard to spot, and it really does seem like numbers are low, but then several days late, boom, there they are, and I think it is that they are just adapting to wolf presence, and staying more hidden in reclusive spots...IMO.
But if one thinks there aren't enough Does, then just don't hunt them, just as I do, but that's my choice.

As for GOS fro wolves, all year round, sounds good to me and I will add to that:
Remove the "Vehicle Restrictions" after the Regular hunting season for other species is over! (Jan to Sept).
How the heck can "most hunters" target wolves when the vehicle restriction makes it extremely difficult for anyone to get in the backcountry without horses, and who the heck is going to trailer up horses every weekend just to hunt wolves??
Let's just hope there are a lot more Fires to come in the next few years, as waiting for the government/ministry is a waste of time.
Let's just hope that people and there property don't get hurt, but hey, what else can be done?
Should be the Ministry doing these burns in "controlled fashion".

[Wild one]

Sorry Wayne, but I'll go with the professional opinion of every wildlife biologist in North America, including Geist, instead of some clowns on TV that seem to fall off a roof, get their snowmobile stuck, or chop off a finger on every show.


Just choose to pick the theories that fit what meet your opinion but honestly most are guilty of this

The truth is there are studies/theories that support and discredit BCs management

The 10% ratio on mule deer is a big one only state that has any support I have found is Washington but they still manage at 15% min adult buck goal for winter counts and other areas a goal of over double that. Most areas have management plans with 25%+ min on mule deer ratios

Only support in the study in Washington was when a population of 10% was studied no drop in overall population happened showing possibility of stability but no increase in population under this ratio

Odd study found in region 5 here in BC in the past was showing past changes to regs were because many MUs were falling shy of the goal of 20% min ratio in region 5

Strange I remember a bunch of people on this forum blaming GOs and hunters wanting restrictions and this was all special intrest group agenda. No talk of counts showing ratios that fell shy of goals set by BC bios. No talk that the rut closure and other changes were implemented because of ratios falling short of management goals


Like I said a guy looks into things you find contradictions to basically everything and scientific facts to support it

Do we have agendas being pushed with BCs management seems odds are pretty good

[Salty]

Not bad for 6 years

https://i.imgur.com/uqwiGv6.jpg


I'll say ^ :)

Other than the tendency to drop twins and triplets white tail will also go into their first heat as young as 7 months old and some get bred that young. And they're also the most communal as far as raising young, other does are willing to adopt orphans. Its no wonder they're the only big game animal in BC right now that is expanding its ranges in a big way.

[.264winmag]

I'll say ^ :)

Other than the tendency to drop twins and triplets white tail will also go into their first heat as young as 7 months old and some get bred that young. And they're also the most communal as far as raising young, other does are willing to adopt orphans. Its no wonder they're the only big game animal in BC right now that is expanding its ranges in a big way.

You bet, we witness all these tendencies right from our doorstep. They definitely stick together for survival.

[Bugle M In]

So, how's it been going in R5??
That Closure for 10 days has been in effect for quite sometime now?
And the 4pt Restriction has been present for as long as I remember.
So, are there deer all over the place now up there??
(yes I'm talking mulies and this is a WT thread, but since others are bringing it up).
By now, there should be tons of deer up there.

[Scotty76]

Follow up response from okanagon BIO... see questions and reply below ...
.
.
Hi Scott, we are subject to a few of these campaigns each year, although usually by the anti-hunting groups. We have pretty good population trend data for white-tailed deer to support continuation of the season but we are interested in doing a public survey to understand if the provincially-coordinated seasons are still supported by the majority of hunters. My discussions with the BCWF suggest that the majority of hunters still support current management objective to maintain antlerless hunting opportunities and manage with science. There are currently no proposals to change seasons for the 2018-2020 regulation period. We are currently doing our EK Trench elk inventory and will interesting to compare WTD observations to past surveys.

Take care,

Patrick



Thanks for the reply!!

I appreciate you taking the time.

Is this shutting down of the doe season campaign gaining traction? Is this a possibility for the future even though numbers have been shown to be stable?
______

[blacklab]

How about enlightening this member of the geriatric crowd.
Where do white tail go when they become nocturnal? Do they have dens like coyotes or do the roost in trees like turkeys?
How do they not leave tracks in the snow once they enter their nocturnal phase?

If whitetail aren't supposed to be in region 3, why are they here?
Moose were't here either till the 30"s. Should we try to wipe them out as well to save some Caribou?
Oh, I forgot our widelife managers already tried that one.

[Bugle M In]

How about enlightening this member of the geriatric crowd.
Where do white tail go when they become nocturnal? Do they have dens like coyotes or do the roost in trees like turkeys?
How do they not leave tracks in the snow once they enter their nocturnal phase?

If whitetail aren't supposed to be in region 3, why are they here?
Moose were't here either till the 30"s. Should we try to wipe them out as well to save some Caribou?
Oh, I forgot our widelife managers already tried that one.

No they don't sleep in dens:p.
I guess the question is, do you want WT's at the expense of losing MD??
I think, overall in NA, there is a concern of MD being out competed by WT, which could eventually lead to the demise of MD.
That, in my opinion, is how you have to look at it, especially in Lowland, Flat areas, say like Cache Creek, Kamloops etc.
Terrain varies here in BC, like comparing areas like Cache Creek to Golden for example.
MD can survive way up high, in sub alpine, but they do need to come down for a time during winter.
WT's generally stay low (although I have seen them moving high, especially with those way up high cut blocks).
What I am saying is, there are some areas where MD will roam, that WT wont, but come winter, that changes.
The fact that WT have expanded should be evidence enough, that for the most part, simply said, WT are okay, and they aren't at risk of being over hunted.
But, it is a matter of opinion I suppose....do you want to hunt more WT areas in the future, and lose MD?
Or, do you want MD to stay where they traditionally have been, and help them exist way into the future??
Do you want to hunt MD in Cache Creek or WT's one day in that same area??

[.264winmag]

[QUOTE=blacklab;1975106]How about enlightening this member of the geriatric crowd.
Where do white tail go when they become nocturnal? Do they have dens like coyotes or do the roost in trees like turkeys?
How do they not leave tracks in the snow once they enter their nocturnal phase?

They levitate, of course. Everybody knows that!

[Fisher-Dude]

Just choose to pick the theories that fit what meet your opinion but honestly most are guilty of this

The truth is there are studies/theories that support and discredit BCs management

The 10% ratio on mule deer is a big one only state that has any support I have found is Washington but they still manage at 15% min adult buck goal for winter counts and other areas a goal of over double that. Most areas have management plans with 25%+ min on mule deer ratios

Only support in the study in Washington was when a population of 10% was studied no drop in overall population happened showing possibility of stability but no increase in population under this ratio

Odd study found in region 5 here in BC in the past was showing past changes to regs were because many MUs were falling shy of the goal of 20% min ratio in region 5

Strange I remember a bunch of people on this forum blaming GOs and hunters wanting restrictions and this was all special intrest group agenda. No talk of counts showing ratios that fell shy of goals set by BC bios. No talk that the rut closure and other changes were implemented because of ratios falling short of management goals


Like I said a guy looks into things you find contradictions to basically everything and scientific facts to support it

Do we have agendas being pushed with BCs management seems odds are pretty good

We don't manage mule deer to 10%.

We manage to 20%.

We can escape conservation concerns at 10% as we'll still have >90% pregnancy rates.

The 20:100 ratio is designed to have sufficient sperm supply plus representative specimens in each age category that also encompasses non-consumptive needs such as wildlife photography and wildlife viewing opportunities.

[Wild one]

We don't manage mule deer to 10%.

We manage to 20%.

We can escape conservation concerns at 10% as we'll still have >90% pregnancy rates.

The 20:100 ratio is designed to have sufficient sperm supply plus representative specimens in each age category that also encompasses non-consumptive needs such as wildlife photography and wildlife viewing opportunities.


Example of region 5 shows I clearly acknowledge the 20% goal

[blacklab]

No they don't sleep in dens:p.
I guess the question is, do you want WT's at the expense of losing MD??
I think, overall in NA, there is a concern of MD being out competed by WT, which could eventually lead to the demise of MD.
That, in my opinion, is how you have to look at it, especially in Lowland, Flat areas, say like Cache Creek, Kamloops etc.
Terrain varies here in BC, like comparing areas like Cache Creek to Golden for example.
MD can survive way up high, in sub alpine, but they do need to come down for a time during winter.
WT's generally stay low (although I have seen them moving high, especially with those way up high cut blocks).
What I am saying is, there are some areas where MD will roam, that WT wont, but come winter, that changes.
The fact that WT have expanded should be evidence enough, that for the most part, simply said, WT are okay, and they aren't at risk of being over hunted.
But, it is a matter of opinion I suppose....do you want to hunt more WT areas in the future, and lose MD?
Or, do you want MD to stay where they traditionally have been, and help them exist way into the future??
Do you want to hunt MD in Cache Creek or WT's one day in that same area??

I think if you'll look at some of the more recent information out there, you'll find that theory is so much BS.
Why can the two species survive in other jurisdictions but not in BC's region 3?
The attraction of a 2 antlerless whitetail opportunity within 2 hours of the lower mainland is the worse thing to happen to region 3 mule deer. Remember the any buck mule deer season is concurrent with the antlerless white tail season.
Go have a look at the rational for the lower provincial and region 3 bag limit change.

[labguy]

I think if you'll look at some of the more recent information out there, you'll find that theory is so much BS.
Why can the two species survive in other jurisdictions but not in BC's region 3?
The attraction of a 2 antlerless whitetail opportunity within 2 hours of the lower mainland is the worse thing to happen to region 3 mule deer. Remember the any buck mule deer season is concurrent with the antlerless white tail season.
Go have a look at the rational for the lower provincial and region 3 bag limit change.

Not to mention the trigger happy morons that can't tell the two species apart and shoot the first doe they see and then say ooopsss...thought it was a whitetail because it had a white ass....

[Wild one]

Not to mention the trigger happy morons that can't tell the two species apart and shoot the first doe they see and then say ooopsss...thought it was a whitetail because it had a white ass....

See COs bust that type in a check stop in 8-14

At least they got caught but this type should not be hunting wt doe season or not

[Fisher-Dude]

I think if you'll look at some of the more recent information out there, you'll find that theory is so much BS.
Why can the two species survive in other jurisdictions but not in BC's region 3?
The attraction of a 2 antlerless whitetail opportunity within 2 hours of the lower mainland is the worse thing to happen to region 3 mule deer. Remember the any buck mule deer season is concurrent with the antlerless white tail season.
Go have a look at the rational for the lower provincial and region 3 bag limit change.


We get it, you don't like hunters who aren't local to where you live. Happens in other regions, too, so you're not the only guy.

But that has nothing to do with game management.

[Bugle M In]

I think if you'll look at some of the more recent information out there, you'll find that theory is so much BS.
Why can the two species survive in other jurisdictions but not in BC's region 3?
The attraction of a 2 antlerless whitetail opportunity within 2 hours of the lower mainland is the worse thing to happen to region 3 mule deer. Remember the any buck mule deer season is concurrent with the antlerless white tail season.
Go have a look at the rational for the lower provincial and region 3 bag limit change.

So, if I understand you correctly, because of the WT opportunity, more hunters head up to hunt them, but then at th same time, they still have an MD tag, and guess what, they end up taking a MD, rather then the WT that they originally were going up there in the 1st place.
If I am understanding you correctly, then I have to disagree.
Even if there were no WT inside that 2 to even 4 hr drive, hunters would still be going up to R3.
Yes, there may be a little more traffic, but I doubt to the point of disaster for MD populations.
Worse thing that ever impacted R3, was when R5 closed for 10 days.
That would be the 1st I would want to see corrected...by getting these season to align thru out the province.
If you want to see crowding, just close 1 area, and watch another area get over run if you ask me.
As for the BS of MD and WT not being able to cohabitate the same area.
Yes, it is possible, but I suspect you need to control WT #'s more effectively then one ever would have to with MD.
The other question is, why are there so many Bio reports, from my understanding, stating the MD #'s can drop due to WT expansion.
It's not like it is just 1 member on this site spewing this so called BS...that it's seems to have merit in NA by many who study this exact issue.
I am just respectfully trying to give you my view of what I see, and what I have heard or read.
I have seen no issue in R3 with the amount of MD bucks, and honestly, have seen the same #'s for a lot of years now.
Biggest difference is lack of snow, and the deer just aren't concentrated like in the past come Nov, so it gives the appearance that there are less deer, but, they are just more spread out then the old day norms IMO.
And, the 2 biggest bucks I have ever seen in my life were just taken last season, so there are some hogs around, and some who really gave it figured out, will tell you there still are hogs out there.
The next issue is still the wolves, and they are new too many of the R3 area, and that is what concerns me the most, which in that case, hunting isn't the factor if MD #'s suddenly drop.
But again, back to the WT...do you want to end up possibly just hunting WT one day??
What if those Bios are correct???
There's only so much food on the landscape at present, so it can only feed so many mouths, and feeding more is impossible, so, do you want to feed WT's or MD's in R3.??

[blacklab]

We get it, you don't like hunters who aren't local to where you live. Happens in other regions, too, so you're not the only guy.

But that has nothing to do with game management.

Typical comeback from FD.
I have no problem with hunters from any where. Like I said have a look at the rational for the mule deer bag limit changes. By their own admission there has been a notable increase in hunters in region 3. This increase seems to coincide with the increased white tail opportunity.

[Fisher-Dude]

You can shoot 2 whitetails in regions 8 and 4 as well.

Hasn't done anything except help mule deer populations.

[blacklab]

When you get done circling the wagons, go back and look at the rational for the decrease in mule deer bag limits. A 25% increase in hunter numbers, is a direct result of where you can get the most bang for your buck.
Three years ago you could go to region 3 during the month of October and have the opportunity to take 2 antlerless white tail, any mule deer buck, and an immature bull moose.
Sounds pretty inviting when its close to home for the majority of this provinces hunters.
Do you think maybe some Kamloops wildlife staff screwed up big time.

[Wild one]

You can shoot 2 whitetails in regions 8 and 4 as well.

Hasn't done anything except help mule deer populations.

So mule deer numbers are increasing BC wide lol

[Fisher-Dude]

Why can the two species survive in other jurisdictions but not in BC's region 3?


In other jurisdictions with WT and MD living sympatrically, they shoot the WTs at double or more the rate we do.

Most US jurisdictions take 15% plus of the WT does every year.

We're barely up to 7% with bucks and does combined. We have to up our game on WT harvest if we want to manage for other species like MD.

If we want to manage for WT, we'll have to accept far lower populations of MD. Make your choice.

[Fisher-Dude]

So mule deer numbers are increasing BC wide lol

In some areas. We've seen rebounds in region 8 in quite a few areas since 2010 in conjunction with habitat changes for the better. Has slowed the decline in other areas.

If we shoot more WT, we can help reverse the decline of MD in those areas.

Depends what you want to manage for - high WT or high MD numbers. Do hunters want to give up on MD and switch 100% to WT? We can do it if that's what people want.

[Fisher-Dude]

When you get done circling the wagons, go back and look at the rational for the decrease in mule deer bag limits. A 25% increase in hunter numbers, is a direct result of where you can get the most bang for your buck.
Three years ago you could go to region 3 during the month of October and have the opportunity to take 2 antlerless white tail, any mule deer buck, and an immature bull moose.
Sounds pretty inviting when its close to home for the majority of this provinces hunters.
Do you think maybe some Kamloops wildlife staff screwed up big time.

Considering the vast majority of hunters who aren't familiar with the region would be really lucky to trip over a WT doe or a forky muley, methinks you dost exaggerate too much.

You keep showing your hand when you bitch about hunter numbers though. Spikes or drops in harvest would be something meaningful to discuss, rather than x% increase in hunters.

[zippermouth]

i cant believe we're still bickering over regulation changes, especially whitetail doe seasons!!!... do you guys not see there is more to it than fighting other hunters? let the Bios do there jobs!! if your not educated on the subject keep your thoughts to yourself!!!

[Wild one]

In some areas. We've seen rebounds in region 8 in quite a few areas since 2010 in conjunction with habitat changes for the better. Has slowed the decline in other areas.

If we shoot more WT, we can help reverse the decline of MD in those areas.

Depends what you want to manage for - high WT or high MD numbers. Do hunters want to give up on MD and switch 100% to WT? We can do it if that's what people want.

Region 8 I support WT season just the way it is population is solid enough. Had an over aboundance in does in my opinion

Don’t buy into the management theory and instead support habitat will play the roll of the future of these species.

Too many long standing populations where they coexist in the same area dominating different habitat.

Truth is the only mule deer I see at true risk is those that live in habitat that WT are way more adapted to. In my opinion this can only be delayed at best

WT will never 100% push mule deer out but both species have habitat they will dominate no matter what we do

[Fisher-Dude]

WT don't push out mule deer.

What WT do is support high cat populations that should instead follow the ebb and flow of mule deer populations.

That is a death sentence for mule deer.

[Onesock]

So it is your opinion FD we should kill moose to protect caribou?

[Wild one]

WT don't push out mule deer.

What WT do is support high cat populations that should instead follow the ebb and flow of mule deer populations.

That is a death sentence for mule deer.


Lets not get into this one we will never agree and there is evidence for both sides of the argument.

[Dannybuoy]

WT don't push out mule deer.

What WT do is support high cat populations that should instead follow the ebb and flow of mule deer populations.

That is a death sentence for mule deer. Is there an easier predator to target than cougar ?? If its that simple , knock the cat population down to x number per sq km .. fixed .We can have WT And MD :lol:

[Wild one]

Is there an easier predator to target than cougar ?? If its that simple , knock the cat population down to x number per sq km .. fixed .We can have WT And MD :lol:

That is crazy talk tackle a predator issue by targeting the predator no way that could work lol

But the theory of removing secondary prey species to lower impact on primary prey species that is brilliant

Even when the theory fails elsewhere. Even the scorched earth theory removing majority of prey species to impact predators has failed and this is the same principle on an extreme level

But hey it will work here in BC lol

[Wild one]

Really wish BC and BCs hunters would start using the practice of cross referencing

Instead of that theory looks and fits our agenda

[wideopenthrottle]

WT don't push out mule deer.

What WT do is support high cat populations that should instead follow the ebb and flow of mule deer populations.

That is a death sentence for mule deer.

This one, I am having trouble with FD.....if WT are wintering where MD traditionally winter, then they wont "push out" MD but rather, outcompete them...as we know ( or at least I learned as a youngling, bad winters do the most damage to deer pops due to food supply issues...and WT breed faster to repopulate...

[kootenaihunter]

I highly suggest reading the bio reports from the western states and their management practices and findings, years of good reading available on the web. They have way more money invested and have a lot more studies and evidence for wildlife management strategies. Our BC bios are under-funded, so we have to live with the limited science based studies they can produce.

I think the real battle we should be all calling is for more funds and an independent wildlife management program (as promised by out going libs) to boost all populations and management. Better to band together than splinter over petty issues.

The recent doe propaganda method is not going to help hunters, whether or not you support the doe season. It's hurting our image, whether or not the intent for that is there. There are better ways to have your opinion heard, but at the end of the day, leave it to the pros.

[Wild one]

This one, I am having trouble with FD.....if WT are wintering where MD traditionally winter, then they wont "push out" MD but rather, outcompete them...as we know ( or at least I learned as a youngling, bad winters do the most damage to deer pops due to food supply issues...and WT breed faster to repopulate...


This theory of WT removing nutrition from wintering grounds is the only theory I could find evidence of success lower WT numbers to increase MD. But this is not the issue WT cause in most of BC

Cant find any proven success on BCs plan lower WT numbers to lower cat predation on MD(primary prey of cats).No one can provide proven success of this management theory just the theory it self. I can find examples of the theory failing though

And I support the WT doe season in strong populations under the results of theories with proven success

So this is not coming from a guy who thinks shooting WT does is wrong

[Wild one]

I highly suggest reading the bio reports from the western states and their management practices and findings, years of good reading available on the web. They have way more money invested and have a lot more studies and evidence for wildlife management strategies. Our BC bios are under-funded, so we have to live with the limited science based studies they can produce.

I think the real battle we should be all calling is for more funds and an independent wildlife management program (as promised by out going libs) to boost all populations and management. Better to band together than splinter over petty issues.

The recent doe propaganda method is not going to help hunters, whether or not you support the doe season. It's hurting our image, whether or not the intent for that is there. There are better ways to have your opinion heard, but at the end of the day, leave it to the pros.

And contritions to BCs management is common reading those theories and they contradict each other state to state

[Bugle M In]

Typical comeback from FD.
I have no problem with hunters from any where. Like I said have a look at the rational for the mule deer bag limit changes. By their own admission there has been a notable increase in hunters in region 3. This increase seems to coincide with the increased white tail opportunity.

I can't say if increases traffic coincides with the WT opportunity.
I can tell you for a fact increased traffic happened when R5 closed for 10 days.
Then suddenly R5 opens, and things go back to the way it always was as far as hunter traffic.
And in the R3 MU's I have hunted, no one is there with a WT tag, unless they have already tagged out on MD in R3.
Most guys carry a WT tag like me, because it is a carry over from my earlier R4 hunt.
IF I see a mature WT, well then, bang flop.
But, it's MD that have always been there, and that's why most of us from the LM are up there in R3.
Otherwise, we all go to Rock Creek/Cherryville:mrgreen:..oh...and Clearwater.

[Wild one]

I can't say if increases traffic coincides with the WT opportunity.
I can tell you for a fact increased traffic happened when R5 closed for 10 days.
Then suddenly R5 opens, and things go back to the way it always was as far as hunter traffic.
And in the R3 MU's I have hunted, no one is there with a WT tag, unless they have already tagged out on MD in R3.
Most guys carry a WT tag like me, because it is a carry over from my earlier R4 hunt.
IF I see a mature WT, well then, bang flop.
But, it's MD that have always been there, and that's why most of us from the LM are up there in R3.
Otherwise, we all go to Rock Creek/Cherryville:mrgreen:..oh...and Clearwater.

Lots of guys carry a WT in region 3 just in case can’t blame them either. No doubt some go just because there is a season for WT does as well. But the later ussally sees low success because lack knowledge on WT in the region

[Salty]

I don't quite get all this the sky is falling stuff there's a lot of good news in the wildlife situation in BC right now. Sure there's some challenges but there always have been. Everyone likes the talk about the good old days but there's been spells in the not too distant past were things were a lot more dire. Things like the late 90s absolute crash of deer numbers in the south half, blacktail almost collapse on the north island late 80s and 90s, prior low grizzly populations in places etc. There's good things on the go right now, finally moose population issues in the north are being taken seriously and finally funded signifigantly with a bit of rebound in places. Elk are getting regular in the central interior where you couldn't find one to save your soul when I grew up there. Challenges but a lot of good too right now.

But this is BC and it is mid winter and there always MUST be something to fight about. So carry on, never mine me :lol:

[rocksteady]

Back in the old days... say early 90's... you would see 40 wt does in a day now it's 4... desperate times? Not sure. Population is way down but is that a bad thing?

[Islandeer]

i cant believe we're still bickering over regulation changes, especially whitetail doe seasons!!!... do you guys not see there is more to it that fighting other hunters? let the Bios do there jobs!! if your not educated on the subject keep your thoughts to yourself!!!

What he said!!

[Wild one]

Salty you are right we do have elk herds expanding/growing in many parts of BC and WT have done the same. BT did improve as well. Grizzly one of the most successful and highly managed hunts sadly gone

Dont trust how BC will manage them but there is some success. Unfortunately we can’t credit it to good management attempting to grow these populations. With the exception of region 1/2 elk and grizzly

Guess sometimes the failures create enough anger you overlook the positive changes to wildlife

[blacklab]

Why is it you Okanagan guys are happy with white tail numbers five times higher than region 3 and numbers equal to your mule deer numbers.
Kootenays have 4 times as many white tail as mule deer with a one antlerless limit.
Region 3 has 1/5 as many whitetail and there trying to eradicate those with a two antlerless limit.
People actually think we should give more money to government to manage wildlife in this province.
GOOD LUCK with that.

[horshur]

I don't quite get all this the sky is falling stuff there's a lot of good news in the wildlife situation in BC right now. Sure there's some challenges but there always have been. Everyone likes the talk about the good old days but there's been spells in the not too distant past were things were a lot more dire. Things like the late 90s absolute crash of deer numbers in the south half, blacktail almost collapse on the north island late 80s and 90s, prior low grizzly populations in places etc. There's good things on the go right now, finally moose population issues in the north are being taken seriously and finally funded signifigantly with a bit of rebound in places. Elk are getting regular in the central interior where you couldn't find one to save your soul when I grew up there. Challenges but a lot of good too right now.

But this is BC and it is mid winter and there always MUST be something to fight about. So carry on, never mine me :lol:

So what did managers do in response that resulted in the gains?

[zippermouth]

Why is it you Okanagan guys are happy with white tail numbers five times higher than region 3 and numbers equal to your mule deer numbers.
Kootenays have 4 times as many white tail as mule deer with a one antlerless limit.
Region 3 has 1/5 as many whitetail and there trying to eradicate those with a two antlerless limit.
People actually think we should give more money to government to manage wildlife in this province.
GOOD LUCK with that.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/775f89238a0f55f41bb36c10ba0cebab/tenor.gif?itemid=4545934

[Wild one]

Why is it you Okanagan guys are happy with white tail numbers five times higher than region 3 and numbers equal to your mule deer numbers.
Kootenays have 4 times as many white tail as mule deer with a one antlerless limit.
Region 3 has 1/5 as many whitetail and there trying to eradicate those with a two antlerless limit.
People actually think we should give more money to government to manage wildlife in this province.
GOOD LUCK with that.

Management plan FD keeps pushing is the reason the kill WT save MD from predators theory is why

They are not being managed as a valuable game species in 3. Pretty easy to see they are trying to knock WT numbers back in hopes they don’t expand

Samthing in 7a

[blacklab]

I don't know if there has been any increase. I haven't seen any increase where I hunt region 8, but I hunt crown land bush not farmers fields.

If there has been any increase wildlife management didn't make it happen.
They did cut back to one antlerless though.

[Fisher-Dude]

This one, I am having trouble with FD.....if WT are wintering where MD traditionally winter, then they wont "push out" MD but rather, outcompete them...as we know ( or at least I learned as a youngling, bad winters do the most damage to deer pops due to food supply issues...and WT breed faster to repopulate...

Here you go Bill: http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/pdf/10.1139/z02-025

[Fisher-Dude]

Is there an easier predator to target than cougar ?? If its that simple , knock the cat population down to x number per sq km .. fixed .We can have WT And MD :lol:

We've asked about that and made proposals on increasing cat harvests by upping the bag limit, encouraging a "meat cat" and then selective harvest for the second one.

No go. There's a cougar management matrix that is used (7 categories, IIRC) that analyzes any regs change proposals, and if the proposal hits the "red squares," it won't be implemented.

[LBM]

We've asked about that and made proposals on increasing cat harvests by upping the bag limit, encouraging a "meat cat" and then selective harvest for the second one.

No go. There's a cougar management matrix that is used (7 categories, IIRC) that analyzes any regs change proposals, and if the proposal hits the "red squares," it won't be implemented.

Curious as to who is WE you have said that a few times lately. Said WE have asked for this or WE made this proposal. Who is WE.
What qualifys as a "meat cat" and what qualifys as one that is selective harvested.

[horshur]

It is all mute...cougar predation is primarily compensatory rather then additive..they only kill what would die naturally anyway..so why they ​would ask about expanding the season given the science is beyond me.

[Fisher-Dude]

Curious as to who is WE you have said that a few times lately. Said WE have asked for this or WE made this proposal. Who is WE.
What qualifys as a "meat cat" and what qualifys as one that is selective harvested.

There's no "I" in team, buddy.

[Wild one]

There's no "I" in team, buddy.

So your ready to consider the RH in BC that support different management goals other then max opurtunity/harvest?

or are they not allowed on your team lol

[LBM]

There's no "I" in team, buddy.

Pretty simple question who is WE or if you prefer to call it a team fine.
I understand if your not comfortable saying who, there seems like there is lots of little groups or teams
as you call it trying to push through there personal agendas, because they have no concern for others.
They are just worried about them selves.

[HighCountryBC]

Two things wrong about this , first all the wt in your area are only still there because they are on private property in the "ville" and two , the wolves have just started to show up .... give it a few years ...

Interesting, I remember wolves being there for the last 15-20 years I've spent time there. There was always plenty of whitetail on crown land then and that hasn't changed today. That country is littered with them, just like the rest of the places they are located in BC.

"Only still there because they are on private property." - Too funny. Thanks for the laugh.

[280 77]

Curious as to who is WE you have said that a few times lately. Said WE have asked for this or WE made this proposal. Who is WE.
What qualifys as a "meat cat" and what qualifys as one that is selective harvested.
Valid questions .

[HarryToolips]

You want to see an example of the miss management of deer in this province, have a look at region 3.
By their numbers region 3, 6500- 9000 white tail deer and you can shoot 2 antlerless.
Compared to region 4, 38000-62000 (tel:38000-62000), 1 antlerless limit. Region 8, 31000-44000 (tel:31000-44000), 1 antlerless limit.
If somebody wants to start a petition similar to the one in the Kootenays, you will get my support.
You folks in the regions 4 and 8 better hope the wildlife manager from Kamloops doesn't decide to transfer your way.
By the way in case you didn't notice region 3 just reduced their mule deer bag limit and are part of the change to 1 mule deer in the interior regions.
They want to keep reg3 a muley stronghold....

[Dannybuoy]

Interesting, I remember wolves being there for the last 15-20 years I've spent time there. There was always plenty of whitetail on crown land then and that hasn't changed today. That country is littered with them, just like the rest of the places they are located in BC.

"Only still there because they are on private property." - Too funny. Thanks for the laugh. you are pretty funny yourself .... sure you can tell a wolf track from a coyote though ?...

[blacklab]

They want to keep reg3 a muley stronghold....

I'm about done with the stupid on this thread, so if some of you white tail haters can give me an honest answer I'll just go away.
As I see it everybody is worried about mule deer and killing off the white tail will help solve the problem it's working fantastic in region 3.
So here's the question if it's working so well in region 3, what should the bag limit for white tail be increased to in regions 4 and 8. Look at the numbers you will want the white tail population down to less than 7000.
I assume you would also want the season length increased to 3 months and 10 days, like region 3.
I'm really looking for the answers from FD and his Okanagan choir boys.

[.264winmag]

I would like to see open season for rifle wt extended to dec.10, it's open for bow in region 8 from dec.1-20 but I'm a lousy bow hunter. Seen the biggest rat tail I've ever seen during that time but was out of range. After dec.10 I've seen numerous mature bucks missing headgear so I say shut er down the 10th all together...

[Wild one]

I would like to see open season for rifle wt extended to dec.10, it's open for bow in region 8 from dec.1-20 but I'm a lousy bow hunter. Seen the biggest rat tail I've ever seen during that time but was out of range. After dec.10 I've seen numerous mature bucks missing headgear so I say shut er down the 10th all together...

I am sorry but really you want change because you’re skills are lacking with archery gear(even with Xbow allowed)

You have a really long rifle season giving a ton of opportunity and open during the rut which increases avialible tactics and lowers bucks caution level. No matter the weapon I would take the rut over late season

If you want to improve your skills ask away. Truth of the matter is if you use the right tactics with WT range is not an issue their flaws in their habits can easily be exploited

Your issue is a tactic issue not a season issue want to improve your skills start a thread and ask or be friend a mentor with close range WT skills

Knowledge is free

[HighCountryBC]

I'm about done with the stupid on this thread, so if some of you white tail haters can give me an honest answer I'll just go away.


Don't think anyone here is a whitetail hater. In fact, most of us love hunting them and realize there is absolutely zero conservation concern around hunting them even under extremely liberal seasons (which we don't even have). The antlerless season is one of the most under-utilized hunts in the entire province.

It might not be like the "good old days" but there are whitetail almost everywhere and in good numbers. It's time you guys stopped pushing for useless season restrictions and start focusing on things that will actually make more wildlife.

[blacklab]

Don't think anyone here is a whitetail hater. In fact, most of us love hunting them and realize there is absolutely zero conservation concern around hunting them even under extremely liberal seasons (which we don't even have). The antlerless season is one of the most under-utilized hunts in the entire province.

It might not be like the "good old days" but there are whitetail almost everywhere and in good numbers. It's time you guys stopped pushing for useless season restrictions and start focusing on things that will actually make more wildlife.

If you really read my last post my suggestion should result in a whole bunch more opportunity.
If you don't think there are whitetail haters on here go back and look at some of the older white tail threads.

[dana]

If you really read my last post my suggestion should result in a whole bunch more opportunity.
If you don't think there are whitetail haters on here go back and look at some of the older white tail threads.

You mean posts where they are called 'dinky dog rat deer' or posts saying 'keep mule deer country mule deer country' ;) Please don't confuse sarcasm and humour as hatred. I have hunted whitetail my whole life and will continue to do so. They are both fun and tastey. Just takes a lot more of them to refill a freezer versus muleys.

[dana]

Don't think anyone here is a whitetail hater. In fact, most of us love hunting them and realize there is absolutely zero conservation concern around hunting them even under extremely liberal seasons (which we don't even have). The antlerless season is one of the most under-utilized hunts in the entire province.

It might not be like the "good old days" but there are whitetail almost everywhere and in good numbers. It's time you guys stopped pushing for useless season restrictions and start focusing on things that will actually make more wildlife.


I can assure you that there are indeed many areas of Region 3 where they are not in good numbers and are indeed struggling. The wolves have been just as hard on them as they have been on the muleys and the moose. Fawn recruitment being the biggest issue. If you actually spend some time looking at this time of year and all you see is mature does in a group or alone, you know you have an issue. We have pretty much stopped hunting cow And calf moose in these same areas. The mule deer doe LEH numbers have also seen a steady decline in allocations available each year. Sooo, why would we continue to allow a GOS on 2 whitetail does in the same areas? And Blacklab has a very valid point. If it is ok to have a GOS on 2 whitetail does where they are struggling (Region 3) why would it not be ok to have a GOS on 2 whitetail does where they are supposedly not struggling (Region 4 and 8 ) ? I just look at the compaining over the Interior Mule deer baglimit. It is looked as lost hunter opportunity and those in Region 3 are accused of as being Nimbys but....would it not make sense to counter the lost opportunity with a gained opportunity? If Region 8 has so many whitetails that are doing great, why not open them up like the current Region 3 seasons. 3 months and 2 deer baglimit (buck or doe) ? Would this not counter the over crowding issues that plague other Regions when 8 shuts down it's mule deer seasons super early? Wouldn't this keep hunters hunting their own back yards making 'meat' more economical? Would not hunters have a better hunting experience. And would not we be getting hunters utilizing a species that science says can withstand the added presure?

[Wild one]

You mean posts where they are called 'dinky dog rat deer' or posts saying 'keep mule deer country mule deer country' ;) Please don't confuse sarcasm and humour as hatred. I have hunted whitetail my whole life and will continue to do so. They are both fun and tastey. Just takes a lot more of them to refill a freezer versus muleys.

Oh there is those who truly hate WT in BC and blame them for mule deer issues lol. But lots of hunters are like yourself Dana that appreciate them but just like your mule deer

But there is also guys like myself who truly enjoy WT and see the positive side effects long term for BCs WT.

Might actually see our little BC WT gain weight over years of evening out ratios

Study out of SC state shows some interesting results on WT when ratios improve. Results after years of taking the average weight of WT bucks, does, and fawns the average weight noticeable increased.

There is also data showing stronger fawns and increased survival rate from improved ratios

There is perks to the doe harvest when it comes to overall health long term

Some of us who truly enjoy WT hunting support part of this management for a reason


BCs management theory on why WT doe harvest maybe a program that has a record of failing to improve mule deer numbers but it has a positive side effects for WT that are well studied and proven.

[Wild one]

Region 3 season is not intended to manage WT as a game species it’s about trying to prevent them establishing stronger populations

[dana]

Region 3 season is not intended to manage WT as a game species it’s about trying to prevent them establishing stronger populations

The thing missing in that management theory is it further leads to a complete erradication of a species that belongs here just as much as any other species. We basically managed moose the same way in an effort to save mountain caribou. What happened? We have pretty much lost both the caribou and the moose. The plan of starving out the wolves failed miserably. So why not learn from that? Nope, carry on by trying to save mule deer by over harvesting whitetails. Does no one see the epic fails are just continuing? So what we have happening is a complete erradication of all species in certain areas of this province and we are good with that? Seriously? Hunter conservationalist eh?

[Wild one]

The thing missing in that management theory is it further leads to a complete erradication of a species that belongs here just as much as any other species. We basically managed moose the same way in an effort to save mountain caribou. What happened? We have pretty much lost both the caribou and the moose. The plan of starving out the wolves failed miserably. So why not learn from that? Nope, carry on by trying to save mule deer by over harvesting whitetails. Does no one see the epic fails are just continuing? So what we have happening is a complete erradication of all species in certain areas of this province and we are good with that? Seriously? Hunter conservationalist eh?

Region 3 and 7a management of WT is a joke and a waste of a resource and I don’t support it at all. I only know the mind set of the management plan not that I agree

another example of BC miss management which is way too common

I support the doe harvest in the strong WT populations of BC but not on the theory of the management plan. I only support it knowing the positive effects it can have on WT health for well established populations

Basically BC management will see unintentional perks for some WT populations

Dana I am a hunter who sees most of BCs wildlife management through eyes that see a need for tear down and start over

[Mulehahn]

Grew up hunting 3-18/3-19, with property in 5-1. In recent years I have to a conclusion, either the white tail population is either expanding considerably or someone developed a Whitetail modelling agency. They are always stopping to pose in front of trail cams or in fields where I seldom, if ever, saw them. Granted, I do have yet to see a trophy wt, but so cannot comment on that. Now given that WT ate not prone to migrate as much as Mulies all the studies I have read indicate that this expansion is an indication of a larger population. Combined with recent arial counts supporting this, I thinl they are doing just fine.

[dana]

Region 3 and 7a management of WT is a joke and a waste of a resource and I don’t support it at all. I only know the mind set of the management plan not that I agree

another example of BC miss management which is way too common

I support the doe harvest in the strong WT populations of BC but not on the theory of the management plan. I only support it knowing the positive effects it can have on WT health for well established populations

Basically BC management will see unintentional perks for some WT populations

Dana I am a hunter who sees most of BCs wildlife management through eyes that see a need for tear down and start over

I competely agree! I think the kick back from Region 3 for this round of regulations is the begginning of that process. Of course they have go about it slowly because if you think the 'lost opportunity' whinners are loud with the mule deer baglimits, think of the howling if Region 3 eliminated the whitetail doe seasons at the same time? Hopefully, a rehaul on the whitetail seasons is in the mix for the next regulation cycle 2 years from now.

[dana]

Grew up hunting 3-18/3-19, with property in 5-1. In recent years I have to a conclusion, either the white tail population is either expanding considerably or someone developed a Whitetail modelling agency. They are always stopping to pose in front of trail cams or in fields where I seldom, if ever, saw them. Granted, I do have yet to see a trophy wt, but so cannot comment on that. Now given that WT ate not prone to migrate as much as Mulies all the studies I have read indicate that this expansion is an indication of a larger population. Combined with recent arial counts supporting this, I thinl they are doing just fine.

I'm pretty sure your take on it would be competely different if you were looking at all the units from 3-38 through 3-46 including 7-2 through 7-4.

[Wild one]

I competely agree! I think the kick back from Region 3 for this round of regulations is the begginning of that process. Of course they have go about it slowly because if you think the 'lost opportunity' whinners are loud with the mule deer baglimits, think of the howling if Region 3 eliminated the whitetail doe seasons at the same time? Hopefully, a rehaul on the whitetail seasons is in the mix for the next regulation cycle 2 years from now.

The number of BC hunters getting fet up is growing and I am not talking one at a time and this continues we may have a brighter future in BC

I can just imagine your opinions on mule deer knowing that is your true passion.

[blacklab]

Grew up hunting 3-18/3-19, with property in 5-1. In recent years I have to a conclusion, either the white tail population is either expanding considerably or someone developed a Whitetail modelling agency. They are always stopping to pose in front of trail cams or in fields where I seldom, if ever, saw them. Granted, I do have yet to see a trophy wt, but so cannot comment on that. Now given that WT ate not prone to migrate as much as Mulies all the studies I have read indicate that this expansion is an indication of a larger population. Combined with recent arial counts supporting this, I thinl they are doing just fine.
When was the last time you hunted or hung trail cams near Logan lake in 3-18 or 19.
I lived there until last year and I'll call BS to anyone saying they are expanding. The fields you see them in will have a no hunting sign on every second fence post.

[Bugle M In]

When was the last time you hunted or hung trail cams near Logan lake in 3-18 or 19.
I lived there until last year and I'll call BS to anyone saying they are expanding. The fields you see them in will have a no hunting sign on every second fence post.

I've seen them in 3-30, 3-29....right across the road:wink:

[Bugle M In]

Dana,
I wanted to ask you this for awhile, before you left this site for a few years.
Before you left, didn't you say tat the Bios in R3 had their shit together??
That is was R5 that was doing a crappy job?
Just curious if you still feel that way, as I know your tune has changed on "seeing big bucks", to now, that no buck can get big enough due to it being taken out before it has a chance.
(not sure if that is because you feel it is do to the "any buck" season, or if it is due to the "4pt restriction")
But, I am curious where you stud on thing s before you left and if anything differs now?
Do agree 100% however, that wolves need to go in R3, as well as R5 and province wide.
I was already seeing the issue develop before you left this site years ago.

[Bugle M In]

As far as WT, I don't hate them at all, but I don't want to see MD suffer in population size due to WT expansion.
R3 has always been traditionally MD, a lot of it anyways.

Funny thing is, and hearing that Preds like Cougar, like to follow WT movements.
When I think about it, I 1st started to see WT,s in a few of those MU's in R3, and then, I started to see the Wolves.
Starting to wonder now, if that is why the wolves showed up?
I also get the fact that as a pack of Wolves get too big, there has to be a split off, and a new pack has to find new territory.
Wolves also showed up as the logging became, lets just say, bigger operations then once existed.

[Bugle M In]

Region 3 season is not intended to manage WT as a game species it’s about trying to prevent them establishing stronger populations

yup..........

[Bugle M In]

I don't quite get all this the sky is falling stuff there's a lot of good news in the wildlife situation in BC right now. Sure there's some challenges but there always have been. Everyone likes the talk about the good old days but there's been spells in the not too distant past were things were a lot more dire. Things like the late 90s absolute crash of deer numbers in the south half, blacktail almost collapse on the north island late 80s and 90s, prior low grizzly populations in places etc. There's good things on the go right now, finally moose population issues in the north are being taken seriously and finally funded signifigantly with a bit of rebound in places. Elk are getting regular in the central interior where you couldn't find one to save your soul when I grew up there. Challenges but a lot of good too right now.

But this is BC and it is mid winter and there always MUST be something to fight about. So carry on, never mine me :lol:

I think this about sums it up.
If majority of Resident Hunters want a 1 mule deer limit, that's fine by me, and if the majority want to leave as is, fine by me as well.
I would like to see Regions have similar openings and closing, where possible, because I do agree, that some areas see way too much traffic when another area close by is shut down.
So between 1 MD limit, and seasons aligning better, that should correct some of the crowding issues.
As far as seeing more ungulates, yup, we will need to address preds in the province, or expect more decline until things swing the other way.
Changing up some of the Post Logging practices also needs to be looked at again, and starting to burn of the dead wood around the province, instead of trying to log between it, and doing burns in a controlled manor instead of having huge evacuations, needs to be addressed as well.
If we all can get a push on, together, for things to go in the direction I said above, I think we will be okay, and maybe start to see some hunting improvement, and some folks may see a few more mature bodies walking around.

[dana]

Dana,
I wanted to ask you this for awhile, before you left this site for a few years.
Before you left, didn't you say tat the Bios in R3 had their shit together??
That is was R5 that was doing a crappy job?
Just curious if you still feel that way, as I know your tune has changed on "seeing big bucks", to now, that no buck can get big enough due to it being taken out before it has a chance.
(not sure if that is because you feel it is do to the "any buck" season, or if it is due to the "4pt restriction")
But, I am curious where you stud on thing s before you left and if anything differs now?
Do agree 100% however, that wolves need to go in R3, as well as R5 and province wide.
I was already seeing the issue develop before you left this site years ago.

IIRC what I wanted then was unified seasons for all Interior Regions. I was told 'impossible' because the science that was good for Region 3 was bad for Region 8. You see those calling for 'opportunity' only want it in other Regions and they quickly become Nimby's if 'opportunity' is suggested in their own backyard. 'No!!! those are my deer! I can't have an out of Region Hunter hunt here! It will be a Slaughter!' But, when they leave their home Regions and hunt other Regions, 'Screw You! I am hunting for the Opprtunity! Damn you if you take this away from me'. Region 3 could support a rut hunt but Region 8 couldn't. Region 5 gave a little with the peak of the rut shut down but a late rut hunt available. This just made the hunters bounce from one Region to the next following the closures. And I still believe most of those that do it are 'wannabe trophy hunters' who can't hold their trigger fingers when an average muley is standing in front of them. Put the camera lens on the nose and stand back with your arms stretched out and you are an instant 'big buck killa'. Then go to another Region and do it all over again. Those are the guys currently whinning about the baglimit. They now are either going to have to hold their tags and risk being skunked like true trophy hunters or they are going to only get one average buck that if anyone who has been around the block a time or 2 will know exactly the game they are playing. Region 3 has done a good job given the fact they were left out to dry by the other Regions. They stood their ground hoping they could weather the storm. The 'dog lovers' had their hands tied and they couldn't really go any further than what they did when it comes to NBL and NCS on wolves. The hunters have now spoken. They want an end to the overcrowding. Region 3 doesn't want to loose the rut hunt so there is only one solution. If out of Region hunters want to hunt the rut, they are going to have to hold their tag and risk not cutting it. Choose your poison. in my opinion, Region 3 is making a solid move in the right direction. Season changes to match those of Region 8 is the only other option and that would be an end of the rut hunt. My views on that have changed. In the past, I did not want to loose the rut hunt. Now, i could care less. The hunting is so poor in the late season, I personally would be fine in it ended Nov 10 like Region 8. Personally think they could go with a Sept 10-Oct 31 Any Buck Season. Nov 1-10 4 point or better season with a 1 buck Interior limit and life would be made pretty simple. It has nothing to do with saving deer and everything to do with giving hunters a better hunt experience by eliminating over crowding. The idea of growing big bucks only works in the glory days of low pred numbers. Hunting seasons, be it Any Buck or 4 point or better do nothing to grow big bucks. Don't get caught in the trap of lies that FD puts out there. I have never looked at 4 point or better seasons as ways to grow big bucks. You grow big bucks with age. If all your deer are eaten in their first few years, you will have no big bucks.

[Wild one]

As far as WT, I don't hate them at all, but I don't want to see MD suffer in population size due to WT expansion.
R3 has always been traditionally MD, a lot of it anyways.

Funny thing is, and hearing that Preds like Cougar, like to follow WT movements.
When I think about it, I 1st started to see WT,s in a few of those MU's in R3, and then, I started to see the Wolves.
Starting to wonder now, if that is why the wolves showed up?
I also get the fact that as a pack of Wolves get too big, there has to be a split off, and a new pack has to find new territory.
Wolves also showed up as the logging became, lets just say, bigger operations then once existed.

Would be curious to see the study showing preds following WT

BCs management plan is biased on MD being the primary prey of cougar and WT being a secondary. MD see a higher % of predation from cougar then WT.

With MD being the primary prey would it not be reasonable to assume this is the species they follow and WT are secondary opurtunity?

As for wolves all studies exception being Vancouver Island show deer being a lower on the list when it comes to being a prey species. Exceptions come in depending on prey species in the area. My memory seems to tell me WT are again lower on the prey scale then MD here as well. Last part may be off and need to look it up again to be 100%

So why are wolves following WT when they have proffered prey species?

So why are predators following WT instead of their proffered prey species?

The one fact I do know is WT are not effected by predators as hard as many other ungulate species

[.264winmag]

I am sorry but really you want change because you’re skills are lacking with archery gear(even with Xbow allowed)

You have a really long rifle season giving a ton of opportunity and open during the rut which increases avialible tactics and lowers bucks caution level. No matter the weapon I would take the rut over late season

If you want to improve your skills ask away. Truth of the matter is if you use the right tactics with WT range is not an issue their flaws in their habits can easily be exploited

Your issue is a tactic issue not a season issue want to improve your skills start a thread and ask or be friend a mentor with close range WT skills

Knowledge is free

Thanks, appreciate the offer. I am a rifle hunter primarily, poked one little wt buck with a xbow. Taken many deer in my life inside bow range. I can appreciate what it takes to become a proficient archery hunter, and it includes putting in time and passing on opportunities you otherwise wouldn't with a smokepole. I generally am lucky to get a few days away from camp/work to hunt per month. When I get that chance I'm giving myself the best chance to fill the freezer. I'll get a vertical bow someday, get really good at shooting it and if I'm lucky poke some game with it. Till then I'll keep burning powder, works for me.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

IIRC what I wanted then was unified seasons for all Interior Regions. I was told 'impossible' because the science that was good for Region 3 was bad for Region 8. You see those calling for 'opportunity' only want it in other Regions and they quickly become Nimby's if 'opportunity' is suggested in their own backyard. 'No!!! those are my deer! I can't have an out of Region Hunter hunt here! It will be a Slaughter!' But, when they leave their home Regions and hunt other Regions, 'Screw You! I am hunting for the Opprtunity! Damn you if you take this away from me'. Region 3 could support a rut hunt but Region 8 couldn't. Region 5 gave a little with the peak of the rut shut down but a late rut hunt available. This just made the hunters bounce from one Region to the next following the closures. And I still believe most of those that do it are 'wannabe trophy hunters' who can't hold their trigger fingers when an average muley is standing in front of them. Put the camera lens on the nose and stand back with your arms stretched out and you are an instant 'big buck killa'. Then go to another Region and do it all over again. Those are the guys currently whinning about the baglimit. They now are either going to have to hold their tags and risk being skunked like true trophy hunters or they are going to only get one average buck that if anyone who has been around the block a time or 2 will know exactly the game they are playing. Region 3 has done a good job given the fact they were left out to dry by the other Regions. They stood their ground hoping they could weather the storm. The 'dog lovers' had their hands tied and they couldn't really go any further than what they did when it comes to NBL and NCS on wolves. The hunters have now spoken. They want an end to the overcrowding. Region 3 doesn't want to loose the rut hunt so there is only one solution. If out of Region hunters want to hunt the rut, they are going to have to hold their tag and risk not cutting it. Choose your poison. in my opinion, Region 3 is making a solid move in the right direction. Season changes to match those of Region 8 is the only other option and that would be an end of the rut hunt. My views on that have changed. In the past, I did not want to loose the rut hunt. Now, i could care less. The hunting is so poor in the late season, I personally would be fine in it ended Nov 10 like Region 8. Personally think they could go with a Sept 10-Oct 31 Any Buck Season. Nov 1-10 4 point or better season with a 1 buck Interior limit and life would be made pretty simple. It has nothing to do with saving deer and everything to do with giving hunters a better hunt experience by eliminating over crowding. The idea of growing big bucks only works in the glory days of low pred numbers. Hunting seasons, be it Any Buck or 4 point or better do nothing to grow big bucks. Don't get caught in the trap of lies that FD puts out there. I have never looked at 4 point or better seasons as ways to grow big bucks. You grow big bucks with age. If all your deer are eaten in their first few years, you will have no big bucks.

Our former bio here in Region 8 saw a dumb muley buck in the rut and came to the conclusion that all mule deer in Region 8 are dumb. It had nothing to do with the Nimby hunters in this region.

As far as Region 5 goes, the RM there is kind of an anti hunter.

[dana]

Our former bio here in Region 8 saw a dumb muley buck in the rut and came to the conclusion that all mule deer in Region 8 are dumb. It had nothing to do with the Nimby hunters in this region.

As far as Region 5 goes, the RM there is kind of an anti hunter.

So let me get this straight, are you saying they are not managing with science? I thought we were to just let them do their jobs because they are the professionals. Now you are saying that isn't true? I am soooo confused.

[Wild one]

Our former bio here in Region 8 saw a dumb muley buck in the rut and came to the conclusion that all mule deer in Region 8 are dumb. It had nothing to do with the Nimby hunters in this region.

As far as Region 5 goes, the RM there is kind of an anti hunter.


So region 5 rut closure had nothing to do with MUs ratios falling shy of the 20% goal as suggested?

Google can find the data I am speaking of and it is suggested that is the reason for the rut closure in 5

So either you are suggesting data was falsified in the study or you believe steps to raise ratios to the 20% goal were too much?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

So region 5 rut closure had nothing to do with MUs ratios falling shy of the 20% goal as suggested?

Google can find the data I am speaking of and it is suggested that is the reason for the rut closure in 5

So either you are suggesting data was falsified in the study or you believe steps to raise ratios to the 20% goal were too much?

IIRC the numbers were a hair under 20:100... and the flight patterns weren't what they were supposed to be.

[Wild one]

IIRC the numbers were a hair under 20:100... and the flight patterns weren't what they were supposed to be.

So you don’t support the steps he chose to take according to the ratios the counts showed

And you don’t feel the count was sufficiently done

That is a fair opinion on the situation

But this brings up can we trust or counts, management choices, or science being used to manage BCs wildlife?

[Mulehahn]

When was the last time you hunted or hung trail cams near Logan lake in 3-18 or 19.
I lived there until last year and I'll call BS to anyone saying they are expanding. The fields you see them in will have a no hunting sign on every second fence post.

Late season fishing trip with a side hunting trip to Logan lake area in 2016. Now this primarily consisted of just a short trips after a morning of fishing. Found 2 herds of does and a few bucks. Nothing big but they were out there. My trail camera's are on my property. About 25 acrea that is close to crown land. Had 3 does that lived there all summer and a few bucks just moving through from the crown land. Biggest one was a basket 4 point.

Dana, you are right, never really spent anytime in those MUs. Can't saw if the there never was a population, if there was a sizable population for the past 50 years populatuon and it collapsed, or 25 years ago there was none, some moved in, and now are gone again. All would require different approaches. Some areas just don't support certain species. As for the low 7s, I don't really hunt there. But help on a friends family ranch. You are right, never seen a whitetail there but after about a 30 year absence the elk have come back to the point they are a nuisance rather than a novelty. And that is with the wolves, god so many wolves, around.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

So let me get this straight, are you saying they are not managing with science? I thought we were to just let them do their jobs because they are the professionals. Now you are saying that isn't true? I am soooo confused.

That is what the former bio told me. More than a few times requests were submitted to extend the mule deer buck season back to what it was before the die-off in 96/97(closing Nov 15). Every time it was denied. Not sure what buck to doe ratios were back then that he had to work with as flight count money wasn't really there. Local clubs even had to donate $40K just to get a moose survey done.

When the new bios arrived one tallied the road density and found Region 8 to be the highest in the province. Since that time low buck to doe ratios were found in a few MU's (Princeton, 8-08, 8-09-outside OMP)while other MU's were holding their own (8-11, Grandby, 8-23, 809-inside OMP).

Bottom line is that we need funding to keep up on inventories in a time-wise manner. A realistic goal would be to conduct complete regional surveys in a two year time span.

And yes, 'occasionally', there are people put in trusted positions that have agendas....like it or not.

SSS

[horshur]

When our preferences are being criticized by "political correctness" rather then science. Social surveys that conclude a large portion of the population does not approve any hunt except for meat. So hunter lobby groups try to "clean up" hunting by pressing for meat hunts to placate the antis pretending intellectualism.It is a very thin veil. Afraid that they will lose it if we don't behave they are actually agreeing with the anti. They have scruples. The appeal to science as a way of legitimizing what we do is fine. Directing morals on what we do not so much cause morals ain't science. So if hunters want something socially like a trophy season it is no less legitimate then what antis want cause it is a social preference. If guys want more Whitetail around so be it. Pissing on them over it while you placate antis who have no skin in the game is hypocritical. So much of the conflict on this board is from one Theses. A social study on declining hunter numbers. It has become a dogma. That dog is getting old.

[Wild one]

That is what the former bio told me. More than a few times requests were submitted to extend the mule deer buck season back to what it was before the die-off in 96/97(closing Nov 15). Every time it was denied. Not sure what buck to doe ratios were back then that he had to work with as flight count money wasn't really there. Local clubs even had to donate $40K just to get a moose survey done.

When the new bios arrived one tallied the road density and found Region 8 to be the highest in the province. Since that time low buck to doe ratios were found in a few MU's (Princeton, 8-08, 8-09-outside OMP)while other MU's were holding their own (8-11, Grandby, 8-23, 809-inside OMP).

Bottom line is that we need funding to keep up on inventories in a time-wise manner. A realistic goal would be to conduct complete regional surveys in a two year time span.

And yes, 'occasionally', there are people put in trusted positions that have agendas....like it or not.

SSS


I agree with you 100% that surveys are lacking I know of MUs that have not had a count in many years. This is one area that really needs funding.

[bownut]

As a avid RH born and raised in the Okanagan I was blessed to be a part of the glory days. Hunting not only fed us growing up, it taught us to appreciate the outdoors.
Through my 40 plus years I got to know many of the best hunters this Valley had to offer, there children carried the knowledge on and built from it. Some of the best
woodsmen, without the use of Google Earth, Bait Piles, Trail Cameras, and fancy rifles were able to successfully fill their tags every season. The skills that they have
can't be debated.
As I read these threads I can't believe how many so called experts can continue to think that the WT deer are still holding their own. These comments have no strength
with me. Why? Well when I bump into many of the old Knuckle Daggers they all have the same story. "IT'S THE SHITS OUT THERE!" This pretty much can be confirmed
by all those uncut tags floating around. I would tend to believe those individuals, than some guy posting his stories from outside the area. Most don't even have a clue what
good populations are.
Opportunity to do shit, is still Shit. If we don't start to see the (Sorry DANA) The Big Picture it going to be too late. Yes the seasons are only part of the problem, this is
the one time that I would have to agree with the sheep. Still harvest will continue to decline and I don't think we can afford to keep increasing the opportunity to fudge the numbers.
Our whole system needs a Reboot, starting with the Inventory System and Accountability. It's the only way to make a big change.

Again it's a game of give and take, if we can't learn to give, there be no take....

[338win mag]

As a avid RH born and raised in the Okanagan I was blessed to be a part of the glory days. Hunting not only fed us growing up, it taught us to appreciate the outdoors.
Through my 40 plus years I got to know many of the best hunters this Valley had to offer, there children carried the knowledge on and built from it. Some of the best
woodsmen, without the use of Google Earth, Bait Piles, Trail Cameras, and fancy rifles were able to successfully fill their tags every season. The skills that they have
can't be debated.
As I read these threads I can't believe how many so called experts can continue to think that the WT deer are still holding their own. These comments have no strength
with me. Why? Well when I bump into many of the old Knuckle Daggers they all have the same story. "IT'S THE SHITS OUT THERE!" This pretty much can be confirmed
by all those uncut tags floating around. I would tend to believe those individuals, than some guy posting his stories from outside the area. Most don't even have a clue what
good populations are.
Opportunity to do shit, is still Shit. If we don't start to see the (Sorry DANA) The Big Picture it going to be too late. Yes the seasons are only part of the problem, this is
the one time that I would have to agree with the sheep. Still harvest will continue to decline and I don't think we can afford to keep increasing the opportunity to fudge the numbers.
Our whole system needs a Reboot, starting with the Inventory System and Accountability. It's the only way to make a big change.

Again it's a game of give and take, if we can't learn to give, there be no take....

I agree with most of this post here bownut, I think its true,, but the ones who should be giving is the government, not hunters, why should we give anything up?.

[2chodi]

50/50 mix.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ysmskuzrvgup2e4/deer%20-%201.jpg?raw=1

[HarryToolips]

I don't quite get all this the sky is falling stuff there's a lot of good news in the wildlife situation in BC right now. Sure there's some challenges but there always have been. Everyone likes the talk about the good old days but there's been spells in the not too distant past were things were a lot more dire. Things like the late 90s absolute crash of deer numbers in the south half, blacktail almost collapse on the north island late 80s and 90s, prior low grizzly populations in places etc. There's good things on the go right now, finally moose population issues in the north are being taken seriously and finally funded signifigantly with a bit of rebound in places. Elk are getting regular in the central interior where you couldn't find one to save your soul when I grew up there. Challenges but a lot of good too right now.

But this is BC and it is mid winter and there always MUST be something to fight about. So carry on, never mine me :lol:
Finally some positivity...

[HarryToolips]

Why is it you Okanagan guys are happy with white tail numbers five times higher than region 3 and numbers equal to your mule deer numbers.
Kootenays have 4 times as many white tail as mule deer with a one antlerless limit.
Region 3 has 1/5 as many whitetail and there trying to eradicate those with a two antlerless limit.
People actually think we should give more money to government to manage wildlife in this province.
GOOD LUCK with that.
They want to keep reg3 a MD stronghold.....if anyone uses common sense, and think about it for a moment, of course higher WT numbers will create more preds, just how more prime habitat = more food for ungulates and usually population growth, it would make sense that more food for preds would = more preds, which will = more prey on MD as well....as well as competition on winter range...I sure don't want the WT eradicated, I just want to see a healthy balanced ecosystem....I personally have killed 4 WT in the last 3 years in region 3- and I continue to see the same amount of WT year after year, in the same habitat, and the same numbers of WT on winter range....I think a 3 week doe season on a critter that by then is used to a month of hunting pressure by then is just fine, the majority of them adapt...

[HarryToolips]

I can assure you that there are indeed many areas of Region 3 where they are not in good numbers and are indeed struggling. The wolves have been just as hard on them as they have been on the muleys and the moose. Fawn recruitment being the biggest issue. If you actually spend some time looking at this time of year and all you see is mature does in a group or alone, you know you have an issue. We have pretty much stopped hunting cow And calf moose in these same areas. The mule deer doe LEH numbers have also seen a steady decline in allocations available each year. Sooo, why would we continue to allow a GOS on 2 whitetail does in the same areas? And Blacklab has a very valid point. If it is ok to have a GOS on 2 whitetail does where they are struggling (Region 3) why would it not be ok to have a GOS on 2 whitetail does where they are supposedly not struggling (Region 4 and 8 ) ? I just look at the compaining over the Interior Mule deer baglimit. It is looked as lost hunter opportunity and those in Region 3 are accused of as being Nimbys but....would it not make sense to counter the lost opportunity with a gained opportunity? If Region 8 has so many whitetails that are doing great, why not open them up like the current Region 3 seasons. 3 months and 2 deer baglimit (buck or doe) ? Would this not counter the over crowding issues that plague other Regions when 8 shuts down it's mule deer seasons super early? Wouldn't this keep hunters hunting their own back yards making 'meat' more economical? Would not hunters have a better hunting experience. And would not we be getting hunters utilizing a species that science says can withstand the added presure?
I agree, I'd be all for it.....that's too bad about the wolves, I'm guessing northern reg3? The part of region 3 I hunt is primarily the south, and wolves are not as big of an issue, whitetails are stable here from my observations...

[bownut]

I agree with most of this post here bownut, I think its true,, but the ones who should be giving is the government, not hunters, why should we give anything up?.

I too agree the Government needs to put the funding where it belongs. This has always been a problem with all Leaders. I dealt with the very same issues 25 years ago. Nothing has changed
to resolve the problems. Pick up any old minutes from any club in this province and you will see a common thread. Regional Clubs have been fighting the same battle for years, making the very same request
from Government, Forestry, First Nations, ect.
The fear of giving up something big or small is and always will be something that some refuse to accept, but remember this, every policy or change should be based on sustainability. If so then it's
all good, if not, why fool ourselves?

Talk about managing to zero.

[Fisher-Dude]

As a avid RH born and raised in the Okanagan I was blessed to be a part of the glory days. Hunting not only fed us growing up, it taught us to appreciate the outdoors.
Through my 40 plus years I got to know many of the best hunters this Valley had to offer, there children carried the knowledge on and built from it. Some of the best
woodsmen, without the use of Google Earth, Bait Piles, Trail Cameras, and fancy rifles were able to successfully fill their tags every season. The skills that they have
can't be debated.
As I read these threads I can't believe how many so called experts can continue to think that the WT deer are still holding their own. These comments have no strength
with me. Why? Well when I bump into many of the old Knuckle Daggers they all have the same story. "IT'S THE SHITS OUT THERE!" This pretty much can be confirmed
by all those uncut tags floating around. I would tend to believe those individuals, than some guy posting his stories from outside the area. Most don't even have a clue what
good populations are.
Opportunity to do shit, is still Shit. If we don't start to see the (Sorry DANA) The Big Picture it going to be too late. Yes the seasons are only part of the problem, this is
the one time that I would have to agree with the sheep. Still harvest will continue to decline and I don't think we can afford to keep increasing the opportunity to fudge the numbers.
Our whole system needs a Reboot, starting with the Inventory System and Accountability. It's the only way to make a big change.

Again it's a game of give and take, if we can't learn to give, there be no take....

WT harvest is increasing, not decreasing. That's a sure sign of an increasing population.

Perhaps the knuckle draggers need to change tactics if they have uncut tags and think it's the shits out there.

[labguy]

WT harvest is increasing, not decreasing. That's a sure sign of an increasing population.

Perhaps the knuckle draggers need to change tactics if they have uncut tags and think it's the shits out there.

"a sure sign of increasing population?????" This is close to being the most assanine comment I've read of your more than 19,000 posts.

Of course the harvest is increasing because the doe seasons are increasing. You can now shoot anything that moves.

If your happy shooting a doe standing 50 yards off the road with her fawn by her sid, then your idea of quality hunting is a lot different than mine.

Whatever credibility you have enjoyed on this site is eroding rapidly with idiotic comments like that.......

[Wild one]

WT harvest is increasing, not decreasing. That's a sure sign of an increasing population.

Perhaps the knuckle draggers need to change tactics if they have uncut tags and think it's the shits out there.


Increasing harvest can be a factor of increased population but increasex harvest can happen for other reasons. Now provideing count numbers backing this theory is another story

For a man who preaches science you would know that coming to a conclusion on one piece of data (especially one that can be effected by multiple factors) often leads to biased theories lacking factual evidence to support them

Basically bad science

I don’t know about knuckle draggers but I can say some hunters are changing tactics. Still lots that are far behind but no doubt hunters are slowing adapting

[blacklab]

They want to keep reg3 a MD stronghold.....if anyone uses common sense, and think about it for a moment, of course higher WT numbers will create more preds, just how more prime habitat = more food for ungulates and usually population growth, it would make sense that more food for preds would = more preds, which will = more prey on MD as well....as well as competition on winter range...I sure don't want the WT eradicated, I just want to see a healthy balanced ecosystem....I personally have killed 4 WT in the last 3 years in region 3- and I continue to see the same amount of WT year after year, in the same habitat, and the same numbers of WT on winter range....I think a 3 week doe season on a critter that by then is used to a month of hunting pressure by then is just fine, the majority of them adapt...
They are doing a great job of keeping region a mule deer stronghold. It's so good they are reducing the bag limit.

[blacklab]

I'm still waiting for an answer to the questions I asked way back at post #191.

[Wild one]

They are doing a great job of keeping region a mule deer stronghold. It's so good they are reducing the bag limit.


Good start there is a reason majorly of North America does not have the liberal harvest opurtunity on MD BC has

Now if only BC would restrict MD LEH doe harvest in populations that are low and stopped applying them in populations that lack sufficient counts to show if the population is stable or strong enough to support them

Applying max harvest opurtunity management when lacking sufficient data on our populations in BC is not a wise practice

Then add in ratos in some MUs not meeting BCs 20%min( when much of North America run min goals of 25-35 and BC running ratios on the low end of the spectrum to start)and they are left to run under same management or a bio is said to have an anti agenda making slight changes when found in his region.

The point of settling Min goals is to try and stay above this number not hover at or below this goal. Not meeting minimum goals is call for adjusting harvest under most management

Yes we have habitat and predator issues but start adding in management issues no wonder we have a mess


But let’s worry about keeping max opurtunity

[Wild one]

I'm still waiting for an answer to the questions I asked way back at post #191.

Because there is no hard factual evidence of positive results. Some MD populations are seeing slight increase, some declining, and others stable because of this alone he cannot provide conclusive evidence. He can only assume WT COULD be a factor in some MD populations increasing.

Just as I can give an example of this management plan failing else where and asked if he could provide an example of proven success of this management plan.

[blacklab]

So white tail numbers in region 3 are having a negative affect on mule deer numbers but not having an affect in regions 4,5, 7 or 8.
I'm thinking that if you killed off about 30,000 white tail in region 8 there should be a huge increase in the mule deer population.
People say it's working well in region 3.

[Wild one]

Then the old Fawn wither survival rates for MD that on good years are 45% and on winter kill years can drop as low as 1%

This is something that is commonly left out when preaching recruitment being good in BC when winter fawn to doe ratios are taken

[Wild one]

So white tail numbers in region 3 are having a negative affect on mule deer numbers but not having an affect in regions 4,5, 7 or 8.
I'm thinking that if you killed off about 30,000 white tail in region 8 there should be a huge increase in the mule deer population.
People say it's working well in region 3.


No factual evidence of it working only faith in the theory. Results of MD populations vary throughout all regions and MUs

Theories of WT harvest having effects in some areas exist but this is not factual the factors have not been studied to truly come to a conclusion

It’s just like elk have been proven in many studies to have the largest impact on MD populations when it comes to ungulates.

This is the other species increaseing in numbers and range in BC. Oddly enough they are decreasing in the EK where MD are increasing

This factor is being ignored by FD claims of WT harvest helping MD numbers in the EK

BC really does need funding to improve management or even support its present management

[Chuck]

I think they should open the season for these coarse deer even more!! Its our muleys that are in trouble in places.

I couldn't agree more!

[dana]

WT harvest is increasing, not decreasing. That's a sure sign of an increasing population.

Perhaps the knuckle draggers need to change tactics if they have uncut tags and think it's the shits out there.


I can bias the data just by filling out my harvest questionaire for 2017. I hunted 3 months for mule deer and didn't kill one. I hunted 2 days for whitetail and killed 2. Sounds like whitetail numbers are through the roof don't it? Nope! I just happen to know of a couple small pockets where a few live and when you are looking for meat, any whitetail will do. Heck, I actually could skew the numbers even worse if I said how many hours I hunted for whitetail. Between the 2 harvests, I didn't even hunt for an hour combined. Hmm, geeze, we must be over run with the suckers eh? Not on your life!!! As mule deer numbers continue to tank, it is a given that hunters will take advantage of liberal 'any' whitetail seasons just so they can help refill the freezer. And it takes numerous whitetails to match the amount of meat a muley can provide. Whitetail Harvest has only gone up because the seasons are so liberal.

[Wild one]

I couldn't agree more!

Add elk to the list then proven in many studies to have the largest impact on MD numbers when it comes to ungulate species

[Wild one]

I can bias the data just by filling out my harvest questionaire for 2017. I hunted 3 months for mule deer and didn't kill one. I hunted 2 days for whitetail and killed 2. Sounds like whitetail numbers are through the roof don't it? Nope! I just happen to know of a couple small pockets where a few live and when you are looking for meat, any whitetail will do. Heck, I actually could skew the numbers even worse if I said how many hours I hunted for whitetail. Between the 2 harvests, I didn't even hunt for an hour combined. Hmm, geeze, we must be over run with the suckers eh? Not on your life!!! As mule deer numbers continue to tank, it is a given that hunters will take advantage of liberal 'any' whitetail seasons just so they can help refill the freezer. And it takes numerous whitetails to match the amount of meat a muley can provide. Whitetail Harvest has only gone up because the seasons are so liberal.


Yes but if you use data to support your agenda without supporting evidence that is how you can get people to support your views lol


Science is only good for some if they can pick and choose how to use it

[dana]

Yes but if you use data to support your agenda without supporting evidence that is how you can get people to support your views lol


Science is only good for some if they can pick and choose how to use it

This is the exact reason why some have lost all credibility on this site. Spouting off 'science' as a preacher spouts off scripture. If you take scripture out of context, you can make it say anything to support your view. If you take science out of context you can make it say anything to support your view. 'Science' is the new dogma, the new 'religion'. It is used and abused by those who have an agenda. You are made to feel 'guilty' if you don't aggree. You are 'not worthy' and 'unelightened' if you question. Lets just change the word 'Sinner' with the word 'knuckledragger'. Just like some religious leaders of the 80's who guilted their followers to hand over money for their 'cause' ended up going down in flames when the truth came out, the same will happen to the 'science' preachers of today. There is already a strong 'antiscience' movement growing. This is why people are drinking 'untreated' water and burning insence. This is why 'emotion' is taking hold. Because the charlatons have over used 'science'. But, of course, there are charlatons in the 'antiscience' movement as well. Another new Religion emerges and the cycle continues. Meanwhile, real science is sitting there, collecting dust and the Masters of Old, are rolling over in their graves.
Thus ends todays Sermon on this blustery Sunday. ;)

[Wild one]

This is the exact reason why some have lost all credibility on this site. Spouting off 'science' as a preacher spouts off scripture. If you take scripture out of context, you can make it say anything to support your view. If you take science out of context you can make it say anything to support your view. 'Science' is the new dogma, the new 'religion'. It is used and abused by those who have an agenda. You are made to feel 'guilty' if you don't aggree. You are 'not worthy' and 'unelightened' if you question. Lets just change the word 'Sinner' with the word 'knuckledragger'. Just like some religious leaders of the 80's who guilted their followers to hand over money for their 'cause' ended up going down in flames when the truth came out, the same will happen to the 'science' preachers of today. There is already a strong 'antiscience' movement growing. This is why people are drinking 'untreated' water and burning insence. This is why 'emotion' is taking hold. Because the charlatons have over used 'science'. But, of course, there are charlatons in the 'antiscience' movement as well. Another new Religion emerges and the cycle continues. Meanwhile, real science is sitting there, collecting dust and the Masters of Old, are rolling over in their graves.
Thus ends todays Sermon on this blustery Sunday. ;)


Agree 100% and we have had years of propaganda here in BC when it comes to wildlife. It is getting very clear agendas are pushed with selecting science that only supports end goals

Biggest issue is you can find a ton of studies on the same subjects with mixed results. So many contritions on what is except able numbers for every aspect of a deer herd make up for example. Along with results on predation levels and winter survival rates

My views may not be exactly the same as yours but I think we can both agree a lot going on in BC is not right or questionable

[Husky7mm]

Read this the other day.....
“The cultural authority of science has become so totalitarian, so imperial, that everybody has to have science on their side in order to win a debate,”

[dana]

Agree 100% and we have had years of propaganda here in BC when it comes to wildlife. It is getting very clear agendas are pushed with selecting science that only supports end goals

Biggest issue is you can find a ton of studies on the same subjects with mixed results. So many contritions on what is except able numbers for every aspect of a deer herd make up for example. Along with results on predation levels and winter survival rates

My views may not be exactly the same as yours but I think we can both agree a lot going on in BC is not right or questionable

I betcha our views are not that far apart and yes, I agree 100%, there is a lot going on in BC that is not right!

[Bugle M In]

Wild One,
Okay, so R5 had low buck to Doe ratios, thus the Nov 10-20 closure, got it.
But, how long has that closure been in place now (it's been a # of years now).
So, my question is, how are things going up there, did it "fix the issue"??

As for Wolves following WT...no, I doubt there was a study, it was just an observation that the 2 species kinda showed up 1 after the other, but that could just have been due to packs getting to big and needing "new territory".
Regardless how they got there, theres way too many of them now.

As for Dogs targeting MD, that might be completely true, but, if MD are low and more WT exists, they don't get fussy, and have seen plenty of wolf scat with WT hair in it.

Anyways other then that question about how things are now and R5, i'm kinda done with reading this thread.:-D

[Wild one]

Wild One,
Okay, so R5 had low buck to Doe ratios, thus the Nov 10-20 closure, got it.
But, how long has that closure been in place now (it's been a # of years now).
So, my question is, how are things going up there, did it "fix the issue"??

As for Wolves following WT...no, I doubt there was a study, it was just an observation that the 2 species kinda showed up 1 after the other, but that could just have been due to packs getting to big and needing "new territory".
Regardless how they got there, theres way too many of them now.

As for Dogs targeting MD, that might be completely true, but, if MD are low and more WT exists, they don't get fussy, and have seen plenty of wolf scat with WT hair in it.

Anyways other then that question about how things are now and R5, i'm kinda done with reading this thread.:-D

Dont have an update on 5 so can’t say if it achieved results. With a small closure of 10 days during 4pt season I would not expect a drastic results. Been told the reason it was only a 10day loss is opposition

There was a lot of accusations thrown around about this closure when it happened basically blaming special interest groups and the fact data from ratios was the reason was ignored. I only got the study showing the real reason behind it because of this. Have not looked for an update in honesty

As for wolves they eat all ungulates and then some this includes WT. Deer in general are lower on the list of prey if other options are available in most cases. WT are just lowest on the list as they are more adapt to avoiding predation. Let’s be honest the wolves may have proffered prey but they don’t pass on opurtunity when hungry

Just the first time I have heard WT being the reason for wolves


Most of what you see in this thread is to show look beyond what is being pushed here. There is a bad problem of only hand picked data or partial management used from studies or management plans here in BC to focus towards the same max harvest management goals. Lots of 1/2 truths being flogged

I urge everyone do your own research and Read as many studies you can from all over North America not just what is pasted on HBC. Come to your own conclusion after doing so. No doubt you will find contradictions