Mule Deer Restrictions

[hunter1947]

I have not been on this site much over the past year or so I can't keep up with the thread if this has been posted on this site if so then the mods can it..https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbc.ca%2Fnews%2Fcanada%2F british-columbia%2Fmule-deer-hunting-proposed-changes-1.4481756&h=ATNnujfcOWvsDDmRMtNufOxrOhkHuyu5z3siNWhrc3TDBtLM p3G1cvgEGvaqGL_jM0acteiVPXOYaftDDXuIzecHd4NGkUarpZ eOXXgInKb8lsbnzhgnjxVteoIEEt5g_NT93T1FogB3hag1X7Rh PljJmTN0iPp_ZrSpWhc8586r83TCybqOE_shCNXn-ZkO5fFrNP8cOYiclxwAo-AaqOZ8yZteasjZQVpQ1N34GESYNuHsiVyf8EYVPZGfYQvWpYbz 5D_84CMpfpvVE_0VPIJoZ4LhgvTPqVKStPs_c7WWkJc6

[notyalc]

I think that would be a great idea, at least for the 5 years or so.

[338win mag]

I think that would be a great idea, at least for the 5 years or so.
Did you listen to the article in its entirety? or just read the article.

[limit time]

I think that would be a great idea, at least for the 5 years or so.

And so it begins...again....

[Salty]

And so it begins...again....


No kidding I just don't get it.

[Salty]

Was driving through the Okanagan yesterday and the topic of Mule Deer reg changes came on CBC radio. Some guy calls in almost in tears about eh poor deer, and we should close it for 5 years because high powered rifles and scopes are killing too many. But it should be kept open for bow hunting. How do we end up with so many idiots as "hunters".

Oh well the majority can read and comprehend scientific studies and proven causes of good or bad population trends. Onwards and upwards. .....

[Islander30]

How about only the hunters who are in favour of the restriction are not allowed to hunt mule deer for the next 5 years........and better yet they have to kill 3 wolves a year in the meantime or they don't get hunt mule deer for another 5 years....that way everybody is happy....lol !

[DeepJeep]

this is being discussed in another thread.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?142319-CBC-radio-one-mule-deer

[Bugle M In]

I don't see where one can "listen to" it, I did follow the link.
Closing the season for 5 years, and the "most hunters agree with that"???...really!, where does someone get the right to speak for others on that opinion?
I don't know what the Bios "findings on Mulie #'s are", but if they are low, then I agree, we need to be more "conservative" with hunting them right now, and going to 1 buck annually is fine by me, as long as "all the regions stay open like R3, and it goes to any buck", that way the meat guys get to harvest their needs, and the guys looking for that mature buck, can go on as they always do, but opening to the same dates, allows thing to be "spread out once again.
But, I do understand how some have concerns with the change, meaning, if and when things get better, will opportunities be opened up again?? OR, is it going to be a struggle to change the change back again??
I think something everyone, and I mean. everyone who hunts, better realize that we may have been managing under the "Science" in the past, and from surveys, BUT, we all have to ask ourselves this now?...
Are we going to see things go to a "Public Opinion/ Emotional Based Management" for the future??
That's when I see some here being very "worried" about lowering harvest levels right now.
There is nothing "Protecting Us" from this new approach that seems to be coming our way.
These same people are worried we may never get it back again, and that's a valid point to consider.
Hunters, most of us, are "conservationist", meaning, we want levels to be at a "harvestable level" and if restrictions are required, we all are for it.
But, what type of "Conservation Management is going to be used in the future"????
That's what I am not so sure about?, and especially if you are of the opinion that "predators,not hunting" has created these low ungulate #'s, and yet we have a government who refuses to "manage accordingly due to public opinion".
Managing according to Public Opinion should scare us all, as I think that is where we are headed, unless we get something changes in Legislation to protect us from that, and if we don't, we may just see these changes as totally ineffective in the future when it comes to managing wildlife, and thus our own opportunities.
We want to do the right thing right now as hunters to bring Mulie #'s back up, but, will we be given that same respect when/if they do climb again.....do we see higher bag limits then????

[VLD43]

I don't see where one can "listen to" it, I did follow the link.
Closing the season for 5 years, and the "most hunters agree with that"???...really!, where does someone get the right to speak for others on that opinion?
I don't know what the Bios "findings on Mulie #'s are", but if they are low, then I agree, we need to be more "conservative" with hunting them right now, and going to 1 buck annually is fine by me, as long as "all the regions stay open like R3, and it goes to any buck", that way the meat guys get to harvest their needs, and the guys looking for that mature buck, can go on as they always do, but opening to the same dates, allows thing to be "spread out once again.
But, I do understand how some have concerns with the change, meaning, if and when things get better, will opportunities be opened up again?? OR, is it going to be a struggle to change the change back again??
I think something everyone, and I mean. everyone who hunts, better realize that we may have been managing under the "Science" in the past, and from surveys, BUT, we all have to ask ourselves this now?...
Are we going to see things go to a "Public Opinion/ Emotional Based Management" for the future??
That's when I see some here being very "worried" about lowering harvest levels right now.
There is nothing "Protecting Us" from this new approach that seems to be coming our way.
These same people are worried we may never get it back again, and that's a valid point to consider.
Hunters, most of us, are "conservationist", meaning, we want levels to be at a "harvestable level" and if restrictions are required, we all are for it.
But, what type of "Conservation Management is going to be used in the future"????
That's what I am not so sure about?, and especially if you are of the opinion that "predators,not hunting" has created these low ungulate #'s, and yet we have a government who refuses to "manage accordingly due to public opinion".
Managing according to Public Opinion should scare us all, as I think that is where we are headed, unless we get something changes in Legislation to protect us from that, and if we don't, we may just see these changes as totally ineffective in the future when it comes to managing wildlife, and thus our own opportunities.
We want to do the right thing right now as hunters to bring Mulie #'s back up, but, will we be given that same respect when/if they do climb again.....do we see higher bag limits then????

Good Post. You have made some good observations and poised some good questions about the future of hunting. In my mind , as a group, we need to embrace this change under the principle of conservation, and further the discussion with both the public and the government. As I stated in another post, going after predator control is going to be a "poison challis" for us. The public is against it. So lets pressure the government to look after and enhance habitat, through more robust legislation aimed at resource extraction and business that abuses the land base or degrades habitat.

[brownmancheng]

Good Post. You have made some good observations and poised some good questions about the future of hunting. In my mind , as a group, we need to embrace this change under the principle of conservation, and further the discussion with both the public and the government. As I stated in another post, going after predator control is going to be a "poison challis" for us. The public is against it. So lets pressure the government to look after and enhance habitat, through more robust legislation aimed at resource extraction and business that abuses the land base or degrades habitat.

So restrict our harvest which woulsnt greatly affect pppulations just our oppprtunity and do nothing about the predators? also continue with the unregulated harvest?

[VLD43]

So restrict our harvest which woulsnt greatly affect pppulations just our oppprtunity and do nothing about the predators? also continue with the unregulated harvest?

If you want to call it restricting your harvest so be it. I would call it "Walking the Walk". Demonstrating that hunters truly are conservationists. As much as I would love to see a scientifically managed system, including predator control, if you will, I think we have already been down this road with the Grizzly bears. And I will bet you didn't like that outcome. What I am suggesting, is that, if we are truly conservationists, as we like to state, we had better start demonstrating that aspect. At this point , we can't have our cake and eat it to.

What I am trying to get others to think about is simply this. The old arguments regarding our rights as hunters are not as valid as they once used to be with the general public. If we want to protect and grow our sport, we need to fight the fights we can win. We need to change the conversation to something that benefits both ourselves and the general public. It has to be win win. We can no longer talk the talk and then not walk the walk.

[Dbuck]

I think the government should stop the two point season completely,no LEH doe season, ban ATV's in province from Sept 1 to Dec 31. I know I'll get a lot of flack about the ATV ban, but last year during the ban because of forest fires, I was sheep hunting saw 5 mulies 3, 4 points and 2, 2points walking all together. The week after the ban was lifted, not a deer in sight and while looking at some rams in a canyon , this guy drives a quad on the edge and spooks the rams. No road, no trail just drives any where he feels like it. Lazy mans way of hunting and see it more every year .

[Blindeyes]

The only things killing to many deer are cars and wolves.

[Dannybuoy]

I think the government should stop the two point season completely,no LEH doe season, ban ATV's in province from Sept 1 to Dec 31. I know I'll get a lot of flack about the ATV ban, but last year during the ban because of forest fires, I was sheep hunting saw 5 mulies 3, 4 points and 2, 2points walking all together. The week after the ban was lifted, not a deer in sight and while looking at some rams in a canyon , this guy drives a quad on the edge and spooks the rams. No road, no trail just drives any where he feels like it. Lazy mans way of hunting and see it more every year .
You are going to give FD a heart attack with talk like this ....:shock:
Edit : I think its messed up as well ....

[Salty]

I think the government should stop the two point season completely,no LEH doe season, ban ATV's in province from Sept 1 to Dec 31. I know I'll get a lot of flack about the ATV ban, but last year during the ban because of forest fires, I was sheep hunting saw 5 mulies 3, 4 points and 2, 2points walking all together. The week after the ban was lifted, not a deer in sight and while looking at some rams in a canyon , this guy drives a quad on the edge and spooks the rams. No road, no trail just drives any where he feels like it. Lazy mans way of hunting and see it more every year .

So continue with your method of hunting and **** everybody else. Nice.
I'll let you in on a little secret though your ideas are just that this is a democracy we live in not a oligarchy so you won't get your way. Unfortunately though its thoughts like this that are one of our biggest threats as hunters I hope you reconsider one day.

[TexasWalker]

I'd really like to see province wide LEH on mule deer.
Sept.1-Dec.20 You can shoot any buck you want.
It would bring in added revenue for Mule deer habitat restoration and it would spread out the hunting pressure and harvest pressure across all age groups.

[brownmancheng]

another thought, if they reduce to one mule deer what will happen with the hunters that were taking new hunters on initiation or youth licenses that hunt on the mentors tag? I am guessing there will be many less willing to forego their tag, which will lead to reduced hunter recruitment

[Bugle M In]

I think the government should stop the two point season completely,no LEH doe season, ban ATV's in province from Sept 1 to Dec 31. I know I'll get a lot of flack about the ATV ban, but last year during the ban because of forest fires, I was sheep hunting saw 5 mulies 3, 4 points and 2, 2points walking all together. The week after the ban was lifted, not a deer in sight and while looking at some rams in a canyon , this guy drives a quad on the edge and spooks the rams. No road, no trail just drives any where he feels like it. Lazy mans way of hunting and see it more every year .

Nope, banning ATV's is wrong.
As some have stated, it's a cheaper way for them to get around and they don't damage their trucks etc.
BUT, ATV's should have a policy where they can "no longer leave the road", and only have certain "designated trails that they are permitted to use".
Let's face it, they carry plates now, so they could be reported much easier.
As for the no 2 point, so basically saying 4pt, I'm not going to repeat a long reason why I think that's a bad idea.
I hunt 4pt, not matter when I go, and so do many others.
The biggest issue is, if we go to 1 deer due to low mulie #'s, then fine, but is hunting causing the decline or wolves??
So, ask yourself, if wolves are the issue right now, then reducing bag limit won't bring back deer.
We as hunters have to do our part, which is be conservationists for the low deer #'s, so if they are low, yes, we can curb our part to help them come back, but who is going to deal with what is really causing the deer not to multiply right now, which is wolves and poor habitat.
I think mother nature is going to help habitat thru fires, but that still leaves the other issue.
No wolf culls due to public pressure, and because of that, are we also going to loose out opportunities due to public pressure.
We need some "assurances/legislation", that protects us from those that now want to determine our future and wildlife's based on emotion and public opinion.

[stan]

Let’s try to increase numbers? Leave a month wide open for any buck, then kill the archery season that kills very few bucks. Geniuses

[stan]

Also leh doe draws? Wtf

[VLD43]

So we know deer numbers are low and wolves are thriving. The government doesn't want to cull wolves, but there is an open and unthreatened hunting season for wolves. I wonder if more of the mule deer hunters or hunters in general are that concerned about wolves put some effort into wolf hunting would that help to address the situation at some level. We may be able to be part of the solution, and we don't have to ask for permission. No that would never work. Forget that idea.

[Fisher-Dude]

another thought, if they reduce to one mule deer what will happen with the hunters that were taking new hunters on initiation or youth licenses that hunt on the mentors tag? I am guessing there will be many less willing to forego their tag, which will lead to reduced hunter recruitment

Boom!

No one considered this, did they?

Great point, BMC.

[TexasWalker]

another thought, if they reduce to one mule deer what will happen with the hunters that were taking new hunters on initiation or youth licenses that hunt on the mentors tag? I am guessing there will be many less willing to forego their tag, which will lead to reduced hunter recruitment

Who cares??

[Wild one]

another thought, if they reduce to one mule deer what will happen with the hunters that were taking new hunters on initiation or youth licenses that hunt on the mentors tag? I am guessing there will be many less willing to forego their tag, which will lead to reduced hunter recruitment

They can still take them

[280 77]

Nope, banning ATV's is wrong.
As some have stated, it's a cheaper way for them to get around and they don't damage their trucks etc.
BUT, ATV's should have a policy where they can "no longer leave the road", and only have certain "designated trails that they are permitted to use".
Let's face it, they carry plates now, so they could be reported much easier.
As for the no 2 point, so basically saying 4pt, I'm not going to repeat a long reason why I think that's a bad idea.
I hunt 4pt, not matter when I go, and so do many others.
The biggest issue is, if we go to 1 deer due to low mulie #'s, then fine, but is hunting causing the decline or wolves??
So, ask yourself, if wolves are the issue right now, then reducing bag limit won't bring back deer.
We as hunters have to do our part, which is be conservationists for the low deer #'s, so if they are low, yes, we can curb our part to help them come back, but who is going to deal with what is really causing the deer not to multiply right now, which is wolves and poor habitat.
I think mother nature is going to help habitat thru fires, but that still leaves the other issue.
No wolf culls due to public pressure, and because of that, are we also going to loose out opportunities due to public pressure.
We need some "assurances/legislation", that protects us from those that now want to determine our future and wildlife's based on emotion and public opinion.
Well said Bugle , both of your posts .

[bownut]

Hey heres a idea:
Take some time and look through the old Regs. and see how the seasons have changed and ask yourself "if you give it up ,will you get it back?".
If sustainable then it's justified, if not it's time for change.
There has been a steady increases in some areas to the point of questioning sustainability, thats when we as Hunter/Conservationist need to
back it up.

As long as the Statements on how Hunter Harvest/ Regs.has little effect on game populations continues, there's going to be a debate.
There will always be the thinking that restrictions didn't work if we don't look at all the others drivers that may have challenged the outcome.

The fear of loosing our hunting population will happen just as fast with or without restrictions. Everyones hates TAG SOUP.
I posted a Antler Restriction Video that is working in two States as we speak and was met with a old study that is still used today in BC.
Talk about moving forward!

Old Regs.
Click On:
http://a100.gov.bc.ca/appsdata/acat/documents/r22560/BCHunt-Reg-2000_1300287824908_1c3c376c6de48faef6de4479800672d a80a562aa6b1cb9a0da1974a6df6c2851.pdf

Antler Point Restrictions
Click On:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Onwp1LmAGNY

[338win mag]

Whats your point bownut? How can you compare regs from almost 20 years ago, wolves were not as prevalent as they are now, access to the land wasn't near it is now etc. Why dont you simply post up your portfolio for success?
I and others would like to know.

[kamloopshunter25]

I think the government should stop the two point season completely,no LEH doe season, ban ATV's in province from Sept 1 to Dec 31. I know I'll get a lot of flack about the ATV ban, but last year during the ban because of forest fires, I was sheep hunting saw 5 mulies 3, 4 points and 2, 2points walking all together. The week after the ban was lifted, not a deer in sight and while looking at some rams in a canyon , this guy drives a quad on the edge and spooks the rams. No road, no trail just drives any where he feels like it. Lazy mans way of hunting and see it more every year .

+1 on this one.

[horshur]

20 years ago I discussed this regulation with one of BC's top CO's..he suggested it. I support this change at this time it has been thought about a long time...it is unfortunate that current social mores will not accept social responsibility to do the hard things in mitigating development. That the average citizen enjoys all the benifits but none of the consequences. Like a driver leaving the scene of an accident they caused...

[scoutlt1]

Who cares??

Apparently you don't.

[scoutlt1]

I think the government should stop the two point season completely,no LEH doe season, ban ATV's in province from Sept 1 to Dec 31. I know I'll get a lot of flack about the ATV ban, but last year during the ban because of forest fires, I was sheep hunting saw 5 mulies 3, 4 points and 2, 2points walking all together. The week after the ban was lifted, not a deer in sight and while looking at some rams in a canyon , this guy drives a quad on the edge and spooks the rams. No road, no trail just drives any where he feels like it. Lazy mans way of hunting and see it more every year .

With all due respect....
Your post suggests that having ATV's out there makes game harder to hunt. So therefore wouldn't it be better to allow ORVs all year so that game is less likely to be shot??

And about this "two point season"......?

[bownut]

Whats your point bownut? How can you compare regs from almost 20 years ago, wolves were not as prevalent as they are now, access to the land wasn't near it is now etc. Why dont you simply post up your portfolio for success?
I and others would like to know.

I know all too well about the wolves, all I was trying to say is if Regs need to change so be it. It's the fear of never getting a season back that drives me nuts. The History of these changes can be seen in the link.
Getting over this fear will result a common ground for all stakeholders. If not the division will continue. Thats it thats all.

As far as a Portfolio for Success goes, it going to take some give and take for starters. Until the funding starts rolling in , Conservative Thinking is all we have.
If not extreme changes will be the future, and nobody wants that.

Start with helping the reduce the effect of the drivers and move toward a better management system, the topic has been beaten to death on the site so do we really need to go there.

Penticton Castanet spoke about the Reg. Changes tonight, Title was Wildlife Declines. Funny how some guys still want to claim the numbers are OK, wheres the debate there.

Habitat, Predation, Access, Tactics, Seasons, Forestry Practices, Ect. all take a bite. Thats for sure.

[sthdslayer]

And lets not forget the elephant in the room unknown numbers for unregulated hunting

[stan]

Wolves are not the reason for region 8 mule deer population decline.

[HappyJack]

I know all too well about the wolves, all I was trying to say is if Regs need to change so be it. It's the fear of never getting a season back that drives me nuts. The History of these changes can be seen in the link.
Getting over this fear will result a common ground for all stakeholders. If not the division will continue. Thats it thats all.

As far as a Portfolio for Success goes, it going to take some give and take for starters. Until the funding starts rolling in , Conservative Thinking is all we have.
If not extreme changes will be the future, and nobody wants that.

Start with helping the reduce the effect of the drivers and move toward a better management system, the topic has been beaten to death on the site so do we really need to go there.

Penticton Castanet spoke about the Reg. Changes tonight, Title was Wildlife Declines. Funny how some guys still want to claim the numbers are OK, wheres the debate there.

Habitat, Predation, Access, Tactics, Seasons, Forestry Practices, Ect. all take a bite. Thats for sure.

I have no issues seeing mule deer where I hunt at all, perhaps the decline isn't province wide and there is no need to take away opportunity from all the zones?

Really, when the moose took a hit in the Peace we just quit shooting them up there until we started to see the population levels come back. There is no reason mule deer hunters that think we should leave them alone for awhile can't do that without forcing it down everyone else's throat is there?

[HappyJack]

And lets not forget the elephant in the room unknown numbers for unregulated hunting

Old baloney, who cares? What is the numbers for road kills, predator kills, natural deaths. The only thing that matters are actual field counts to verify herd numbers and make up. Unregulated hunting is just another word for I hate indians that hunt without a license.

[Fisher-Dude]

20 years ago I discussed this regulation with one of BC's top CO's..he suggested it. I support this change at this time it has been thought about a long time...it is unfortunate that current social mores will not accept social responsibility to do the hard things in mitigating development. That the average citizen enjoys all the benifits but none of the consequences. Like a driver leaving the scene of an accident they caused...

COs aren't wildlife biologists.

[horshur]

COs aren't wildlife biologists.
but they hunt with them...

[horshur]

Maybe you all could buy some beef off gcreek....hunters supporting hunters

[bownut]

COs aren't wildlife biologists.

You are correct, they just assume the role to patrol the Water Land and Air infractions. They have know clue to what is going on out there.
The under funded Bios have a good hold on the future. so lets go with that for now.
Add the fact that Opportunity overrides Science and it's all good.

[338win mag]

I know all too well about the wolves, all I was trying to say is if Regs need to change so be it. It's the fear of never getting a season back that drives me nuts. The History of these changes can be seen in the link.
Getting over this fear will result a common ground for all stakeholders. If not the division will continue. Thats it thats all.

As far as a Portfolio for Success goes, it going to take some give and take for starters. Until the funding starts rolling in , Conservative Thinking is all we have.
If not extreme changes will be the future, and nobody wants that.

Start with helping the reduce the effect of the drivers and move toward a better management system, the topic has been beaten to death on the site so do we really need to go there.

Penticton Castanet spoke about the Reg. Changes tonight, Title was Wildlife Declines. Funny how some guys still want to claim the numbers are OK, wheres the debate there.

Habitat, Predation, Access, Tactics, Seasons, Forestry Practices, Ect. all take a bite. Thats for sure.
You are right on here^^^^ so why not explore how we can repair/fix/change some of these other factors before we limit resident hunters?
See bownut, when you speak of "never getting a season back" or seasons being reinstated after all is well....Yes that is a practical and logical idea, but if we consider who is in government at the time dont you think we might have abit of a problem getting something back?
or ....lets not forget about the anti-hunting community....you know the ones who lay their plans deep, as we have seen not only here in BC/Canada/USA.

I wonder how we are going to get any seasons back if something isn't done about the aforementioned issues, ....or who is going to take the baton in 5-10-20 years to get a "season back" in the meantime the anti's simply wait and chip away.
Its been mentioned about hunter recruitment...are we going to stress an entire generation of youth and mentors because a government cant get their **** together?
Honestly, this is the most blatant case of bungling government policy that could be imagined, no way should resident hunters be taking this lying down.

[Fisher-Dude]

Some people are anti-youth recruitment because they don't want a kid to shoot "their" deer.

We've tumbled down that rabbit hole before on this forum. There's no bottom to it.

[LBM]

Some people are anti-youth recruitment because they don't want a kid to shoot "their" deer.

We've tumbled down that rabbit hole before on this forum. There's no bottom to it.

And some are because there unwilling to give there tag for a junior hunter, because they have to kill it them selves.

[HarryToolips]

I don't see where one can "listen to" it, I did follow the link.
Closing the season for 5 years, and the "most hunters agree with that"???...really!, where does someone get the right to speak for others on that opinion?
I don't know what the Bios "findings on Mulie #'s are", but if they are low, then I agree, we need to be more "conservative" with hunting them right now, and going to 1 buck annually is fine by me, as long as "all the regions stay open like R3, and it goes to any buck", that way the meat guys get to harvest their needs, and the guys looking for that mature buck, can go on as they always do, but opening to the same dates, allows thing to be "spread out once again.
But, I do understand how some have concerns with the change, meaning, if and when things get better, will opportunities be opened up again?? OR, is it going to be a struggle to change the change back again??
I think something everyone, and I mean. everyone who hunts, better realize that we may have been managing under the "Science" in the past, and from surveys, BUT, we all have to ask ourselves this now?...
Are we going to see things go to a "Public Opinion/ Emotional Based Management" for the future??
That's when I see some here being very "worried" about lowering harvest levels right now.
There is nothing "Protecting Us" from this new approach that seems to be coming our way.
These same people are worried we may never get it back again, and that's a valid point to consider.
Hunters, most of us, are "conservationist", meaning, we want levels to be at a "harvestable level" and if restrictions are required, we all are for it.
But, what type of "Conservation Management is going to be used in the future"????
That's what I am not so sure about?, and especially if you are of the opinion that "predators,not hunting" has created these low ungulate #'s, and yet we have a government who refuses to "manage accordingly due to public opinion".
Managing according to Public Opinion should scare us all, as I think that is where we are headed, unless we get something changes in Legislation to protect us from that, and if we don't, we may just see these changes as totally ineffective in the future when it comes to managing wildlife, and thus our own opportunities.
We want to do the right thing right now as hunters to bring Mulie #'s back up, but, will we be given that same respect when/if they do climb again.....do we see higher bag limits then????
Well said....and imo, those that want the government to have a knee-jerk reaction and just shut the season down completely for 5 years are being idiotic.....there are a lot more factors out there contributing to a mule deer decline than hunting....in my observations I'm not seeing terrible mule deer numbers, I'm seeing them in parts of region 4 in the last couple of years where I never used to see them 6 or 7 years ago..I am a little concerned about the buck:doe ratio in some areas but that's just what I'm seeing, because to counter that I'm seeing good juvenile recruitment lately...I think the provincial bag limit of one will be fine and will help, and one of the biggest positive impacts toward sustainable mule deer hunting for the future that we can make I believe is more spur road FSR deactivation..

[brownmancheng]

And some are because there unwilling to give there tag for a junior hunter, because they have to kill it them selves.

when I said it I was referring to youth in part. but I do think most guys would be more willing to give to a kid or relation. But there are also initiation licenses where you can allow an adult try hunting definitely going to be a tough sell to drag a newbie around on their one deer.

[steel_ram]

And some are because there unwilling to give there tag for a junior hunter, because they have to kill it them selves.

Yup. So many have forgotten why they are out there. Pulling the trigger is just a small part of a hunt. Let the kid do it.

[bownut]

You are right on here^^^^ so why not explore how we can repair/fix/change some of these other factors before we limit resident hunters?
See bownut, when you speak of "never getting a season back" or seasons being reinstated after all is well....Yes that is a practical and logical idea, but if we consider who is in government at the time dont you think we might have abit of a problem getting something back?
or ....lets not forget about the anti-hunting community....you know the ones who lay their plans deep, as we have seen not only here in BC/Canada/USA.

I wonder how we are going to get any seasons back if something isn't done about the aforementioned issues, ....or who is going to take the baton in 5-10-20 years to get a "season back" in the meantime the anti's simply wait and chip away.
Its been mentioned about hunter recruitment...are we going to stress an entire generation of youth and mentors because a government cant get their **** together?
Honestly, this is the most blatant case of bungling government policy that could be imagined, no way should resident hunters be taking this lying down.

I agree , if we hold any hope for any Government support for Wildlife, we will be in it for the long term. Time to expose the facts and hit them from every Organization big and small. Look at the power
that a downtown Vancouver Coffee Shop had on Wildlife decisions.

Recruitment and Opportunity should have never been grouped together, all this has created is a group of weak half hearted youth hunters. Forming special season was a short term fix IMO.
There was never a build up, no carrot hanging out there, no "I can't wait". I have seen many youths loose interest quickly and the parents gave up on them. Matter of fact I see a stronger Youth Hunter Base come from Junior Shooting, and 3D Bowhunting. Kids that carried it to adult ages.
Just my view on it.

Mentors?
Is it the Mentors that are lacking or is it the interested students?

Your are so correct on taking it laying down. Antis would love it that way.

[HarryToolips]

Hey heres a idea:
Take some time and look through the old Regs. and see how the seasons have changed and ask yourself "if you give it up ,will you get it back?".
If sustainable then it's justified, if not it's time for change.
There has been a steady increases in some areas to the point of questioning sustainability, thats when we as Hunter/Conservationist need to
back it up.

As long as the Statements on how Hunter Harvest/ Regs.has little effect on game populations continues, there's going to be a debate.
There will always be the thinking that restrictions didn't work if we don't look at all the others drivers that may have challenged the outcome.

The fear of loosing our hunting population will happen just as fast with or without restrictions. Everyones hates TAG SOUP.
I posted a Antler Restriction Video that is working in two States as we speak and was met with a old study that is still used today in BC.
Talk about moving forward!

Old Regs.
Click On:
http://a100.gov.bc.ca/appsdata/acat/documents/r22560/BCHunt-Reg-2000_1300287824908_1c3c376c6de48faef6de4479800672d a80a562aa6b1cb9a0da1974a6df6c2851.pdf

Antler Point Restrictions
Click On:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Onwp1LmAGNY
Thanks for posting that, good info.....look at the liberal mule deer hunting seasons in region 4 back then, and people want to blame these declines on hunters??? Who can argue that it isn't the whitetail, they will keep your pred numbers high which will in turn - you've heard it all before...

[blacklab]

COs aren't wildlife biologists.

So don't ever listen to them.
How would they know what's happening, by being in the field all year and talking to hunters and checking what is being taken.
Better to read one of FD's studies instead.

[JG75]

I'd really like to see province wide LEH on mule deer.
Sept.1-Dec.20 You can shoot any buck you want.
It would bring in added revenue for Mule deer habitat restoration and it would spread out the hunting pressure and harvest pressure across all age groups.

Finally, someone talking some sense in this thread! I would be all for this. How do we propose this to the govt?

[Fisher-Dude]

And some are because there unwilling to give there tag for a junior hunter, because they have to kill it them selves.

If you have information on someone illegally using another's tag, report it instead of bitching on HBC.

We raised with the CO Service the issue of youth seasons and the jealous "hunters" who accuse the kids' dads of shooting the deer. At all levels, the CO Service has responded that this is not a problem and that their patrols, stings, and data shows that it isn't happening as the jealous are portraying it.

So, although we have grumpy geezers crying about a 12 year old kid shooting "his" deer, in the end it is just bitching by grumpy geezers that need something to bitch about. And here we thought youth were the "entitled generation."

[Fisher-Dude]

So don't ever listen to them.
How would they know what's happening, by being in the field all year and talking to hunters and checking what is being taken.
Better to read one of FD's studies instead.

They might know what's happening.

They aren't trained in the solution to what's happening. That's the purview of professional wildlife biologists.

[Salty]

Finally, someone talking some sense in this thread! I would be all for this. How do we propose this to the govt?

You can comment to this effect to the ministry right now, they're accepting and welcoming comment. But seriously, what is this going to accomplish other than making a small group of unqualified uneducated hunters have a warm and fuzzy moment? Mule deer are growing in numbers in many places in the province right now and you want an LEH? Is it because you want to hopefully get a draw and have little competition? The best of biologists certainly don't recommend anything like this in the proposed changes (which you can still comment on). Why do people continue to ignore the science and the experts? Million dollar question....

[Fisher-Dude]

Why do people continue to ignore the science and the experts? Million dollar question....

Million dollar answer: because those people confuse "conservation" with their own personal wants.

[JG75]

Let’s try to increase numbers? Leave a month wide open for any buck, then kill the archery season that kills very few bucks. Geniuses

Exactly! I am praying they dont take away late archery season. Ive been bowhunting for 3 years and Ive never gotten anything but it is still my favorite hunt of the year! Its the best time to get out there. Its quiet you dont ever run into "Truck Hunters" and stalking deer while they are rutting is by far the funnest time Ive ever had out in the woods.

[kootenaihunter]

Its the best time to get out there. Its quiet you dont ever run into "Truck Hunters" and stalking deer while they are rutting is by far the funnest time Ive ever had out in the woods.

Amen to that!

[Bugle M In]

Exactly! I am praying they dont take away late archery season. Ive been bowhunting for 3 years and Ive never gotten anything but it is still my favorite hunt of the year! Its the best time to get out there. Its quiet you dont ever run into "Truck Hunters" and stalking deer while they are rutting is by far the funnest time Ive ever had out in the woods.

OK, now I get you....
You might end up losing the Archery season, so, hey, if that is going to happen, everyone else should also lose that
right to hunt deer!!??
Why not just say all along what your issue is, which is just what you stated now...
"that you don't want to see the late season archery taken away".
Your right, it shouldn't be taken away.
If we are all going to hunt for just one mule deer annually per person, then just leave the seasons alone!.
Reducing to 1 mule deer tag should be justification enough to say we are trying to let mule deer come back.
I see that scenario enough just at home and being apart of a Strata.
"If I can't have this, then they can't have that" mentality.....honestly, that is BS attitude.

[Salty]

Exactly! I am praying they dont take away late archery season. Ive been bowhunting for 3 years and Ive never gotten anything but it is still my favorite hunt of the year! Its the best time to get out there. Its quiet you dont ever run into "Truck Hunters" and stalking deer while they are rutting is by far the funnest time Ive ever had out in the woods.

If 'truck hunters' are interfering with your bow hunting you really need to rethink your tactics

[Bugle M In]

Well said....and imo, those that want the government to have a knee-jerk reaction and just shut the season down completely for 5 years are being idiotic.....there are a lot more factors out there contributing to a mule deer decline than hunting....in my observations I'm not seeing terrible mule deer numbers, I'm seeing them in parts of region 4 in the last couple of years where I never used to see them 6 or 7 years ago..I am a little concerned about the buck:doe ratio in some areas but that's just what I'm seeing, because to counter that I'm seeing good juvenile recruitment lately...I think the provincial bag limit of one will be fine and will help, and one of the biggest positive impacts toward sustainable mule deer hunting for the future that we can make I believe is more spur road FSR deactivation..

So true what you say.
I have no idea why the bag limit has to be lowered to be honest.
I go in R3, and everything seems to be consistent, meaning I see the same amount of deer as always...no change.
And in R4, I have started to se more mule deer as well, which is a good thing, and yes, their #'s had gone down for sure over the years.
The biggest thing I saw there to help them was the logging, but, I would rather have seen fires, which is now starting to happen, and if it keeps happening, I expect those #'s to keep climbing.
Back to R3....the biggest/change impact I saw over the years, was when R5 closed down for 10 days...suddenly I was seeing 3 Times the amount of hunters in the area suddenly.
And also in R3, the other big change, is the wolves into the area....never seen those in all my hunting years up there.
Same goes for R4....wolves.
So, if R8 has issues, then we need to address that somehow...IMO.
But again, limiting bag limit is still not addressing the "wolf Issue"....so, just another government "bungling of wildlife management".

[Fisher-Dude]

Exactly! I am praying they dont take away late archery season. Ive been bowhunting for 3 years and Ive never gotten anything but it is still my favorite hunt of the year! Its the best time to get out there. Its quiet you dont ever run into "Truck Hunters" and stalking deer while they are rutting is by far the funnest time Ive ever had out in the woods.

Yup, now we understand your motivations. See my post above on the million dollar answer.

Once you step in dog shit, your shoe stinks even after you wipe it off.

[JG75]

[/QUOTE]Mule deer are growing in numbers in many places in the province right now and you want an LEH? Is it because you want to hopefully get a draw and have little competition? The best of biologists certainly don't recommend anything like this in the proposed changes (which you can still comment on). Why do people continue to ignore the science and the experts? Million dollar question....[/QUOTE]

I could care less if I get that draw, I've never gotten an LEH before and I apply every year. But if they're going to take away some of Mule Deer season wouldn't an LEH draw bring in more revenue. More Revenue=more research More Research=Better Idea of muley populations? Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see it being a bad idea at all

[Salty]

JG75 yes it looks like they're going to eliminate some of the GOS mule deer opportunities but pretty limited in my estimation. They're proposing a one mule deer limit province wide, some shorter seasons etc. That's a far cry from going straight to a limited entry hunt. Look, if a limited entry hunt would help the numbers I'm all ears but it just won't. If we were in some kind of crisis situation sure, that would be the next logical step. But we're not. I'm going to go looking for an excellent presentation that was posted here by a bio from the states (where they're wildlife budgets are HUGE) on the driving factors of mule deer numbers, and I'll re post it here. Spoiler alert- hunting is at the bottom of the list....

edit- OK here it is. I urge everyone to sit down and watch this presentation when they've got some time its somewhat lengthy. But well worth the effort.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNOH627-WqU&feature=youtu.be



.

[kootenaihunter]

Just some thoughts and observations, long time lurker, infrequent poster.

Many hunters believe that cause of the mule deer decline is due to wolves.
Many of these hunters want the gov't to do something about these wolves.

Objectively, wouldn't wildlife management practices suggest and open and liberal season on wolves?

Region 4 you can hunt wolves 9.5 months of the year. Bag limit is either 3 or NBL.

Now, consider the opposite scenario, if mule deer populations were so big they were impacting other species, would hunters advocate for more liberal hunting seasons or would they complain to the gov't to do some thing about it (mule deer cull?)?

I guess what I'm trying to point out is that if wolves are believed to the be the issue, I hope those passionate about it are trying to do what they can (hunt wolves) to be part of the solution. If every mule deer hunter killed 3 or more wolves every year, and wolves were the silver bullet to the problem, then we should have a booming population in a few years time right?

[JG75]

Yup, now we understand your motivations. See my post above on the million dollar answer.

Once you step in dog shit, your shoe stinks even after you wipe it off.

My motivations are to hunt Mule deer with a bow, like thousands of other hunters in this province. How is any of that for my"personal gain"? I just proposed an IDEA for a LEH, does that make me right? Not neccesarily. All i meant was if you are going to add more restrictions on Mule deer why not have an LEH in regions where populations arent hurting so much. I'm confused why Im getting all this hate for adding to the discussion? I thought maybe this was a place where you could get away from cynical assholes but theyre everywhere online i guess.

[Bugle M In]

Just some thoughts and observations, long time lurker, infrequent poster.

Many hunters believe that cause of the mule deer decline is due to wolves.
Many of these hunters want the gov't to do something about these wolves.

Objectively, wouldn't wildlife management practices suggest and open and liberal season on wolves?

Region 4 you can hunt wolves 9.5 months of the year. Bag limit is either 3 or NBL.

Now, consider the opposite scenario, if mule deer populations were so big they were impacting other species, would hunters advocate for more liberal hunting seasons or would they complain to the gov't to do some thing about it (mule deer cull?)?

I guess what I'm trying to point out is that if wolves are believed to the be the issue, I hope those passionate about it are trying to do what they can (hunt wolves) to be part of the solution. If every mule deer hunter killed 3 or more wolves every year, and wolves were the silver bullet to the problem, then we should have a booming population in a few years time right?

The problem is...the ministry should be dealing with the Pred issue.
But, it is left undone due to "social/voter issues", so the only real avenue is for trappers to get it done, thus the other thread that is really taking off here on the site.
Hunting wolves is hard, and it looks like you hunt in the kootenays, so, you can understand that some of the wolves are basically "untouchable" due to road restrictions or proximity to parks, and thus further protection from hunting etc.
It is just plain hard for hunters to hunt wolves and expect decent positive results.
That's the big issue, and government won't touch it, but instead, looks for ways like they always have for years, which is just throw us hunter more regulations and restrictions....which, we all know by now, isn't working to well.
The problems are the ones the ministry is won't help to correct...wolves and habitat.

[Bugle M In]

My motivations are to hunt Mule deer with a bow, like thousands of other hunters in this province. How is any of that for my"personal gain"? I just proposed an IDEA for a LEH, does that make me right? Not neccesarily. All i meant was if you are going to add more restrictions on Mule deer why not have an LEH in regions where populations arent hurting so much. I'm confused why Im getting all this hate for adding to the discussion? I thought maybe this was a place where you could get away from cynical assholes but theyre everywhere online i guess.

Just so you know...you would have had 100% of my support, if you had just said that the late season bow should have been left and not removed.
You also have to understand, not all areas have major mule deer declines, and some are actually doing better.
The issue is some areas are seeing a decline, BUT, it's not due to hunting.
It's other factors, but in the end, we have to restrict ourselves to help those areas that are low, because the ministry wont address the real issues.
So, when you put forth LEH ideas, you are going to see/hear a strong backlash, especially when it is not even close to being necessary, and, understand that not all areas are bad...not at all.
If we open all the Regions to the same dates etc, atleast we will see less crowding in some areas, at some times, but that all.
Addressing the real issues is what we have to get across to the government, and for them to start taking the right steps to help the issues we see today....not take away opportunities like you bow hunt.

[JG75]

Just so you know...you would have had 100% of my support, if you had just said that the late season bow should have been left and not removed.
You also have to understand, not all areas have major mule deer declines, and some are actually doing better.
The issue is some areas are seeing a decline, BUT, it's not due to hunting.
It's other factors, but in the end, we have to restrict ourselves to help those areas that are low, because the ministry wont address the real issues.
So, when you put forth LEH ideas, you are going to see/hear a strong backlash, especially when it is not even close to being necessary, and, understand that not all areas are bad...not at all.
If we open all the Regions to the same dates etc, atleast we will see less crowding in some areas, at some times, but that all.
Addressing the real issues is what we have to get across to the government, and for them to start taking the right steps to help the issues we see today....not take away opportunities like you bow hunt.

Okay, thanks for the educated and non hostile reply. I had never meant to say mule deer should be strictly LEH access only but also let me bow hunt them whenever I want, but i guess it kinda came out that way.
I never took crowding into consideration but that makes a ton of sense, you take away R8 but R5 stays the same? you are gonna get a huge influx of hunters and harvests in R5.
Last time I spoke to a CO at a gamecheck he told me they took away 3 bucks that day because guys didn't tag the region or tagged the wrong region so they could hunt in the same region again. So if we all have to "suffer" for that so be it. I want to see a healthy population for generations to come.
I also found it funny how here in Kelowna they posted yesterday "Deer populations in decline" than this morning they posted "Urban deer problem". I guess thats proof that its more likely loss of habitat being the issue(also there is no wolves in the city lol).
So you seem to be more informed on the issue than I. What is the most effective way I can help with the situation right now?

[Bugle M In]

Okay, thanks for the educated and non hostile reply. I had never meant to say mule deer should be strictly LEH access only but also let me bow hunt them whenever I want, but i guess it kinda came out that way.
I never took crowding into consideration but that makes a ton of sense, you take away R8 but R5 stays the same? you are gonna get a huge influx of hunters and harvests in R5.
Last time I spoke to a CO at a gamecheck he told me they took away 3 bucks that day because guys didn't tag the region or tagged the wrong region so they could hunt in the same region again. So if we all have to "suffer" for that so be it. I want to see a healthy population for generations to come.
I also found it funny how here in Kelowna they posted yesterday "Deer populations in decline" than this morning they posted "Urban deer problem". I guess thats proof that its more likely loss of habitat being the issue(also there is no wolves in the city lol).
So you seem to be more informed on the issue than I. What is the most effective way I can help with the situation right now?

Sorry if some comments were hostile sounding...that's something that happens quite often on forums.
Sometimes it would be nice to discuss stuff face to face, as then it is easier to not always feel like some people are being jerks...it's something I had to get used to when I 1st came on here as well.
When R5 shut down during Nov 10-20, it made a huge impact on the numbers of hunter close to R5 in R3!! big time!
That's the problem with shutting down an area,
Honestly, if things get bad in an area, most hunters just go somewhere else.
Sometimes, some areas just have a drop in #'s for a time, and then a few years later, game shows up again...not sure why, but there usually is some factors, like long winters, so large winter kill offs etc...stuff like that.
As for deer in Kelowna. well I have seen the same with deer around Cache Creek...it seems like they rather take their chances around humans, then hang out around the wolves, and the wolves try to avoid humans.
Think there is a study on that, that actually shows that there is some validity to what I just said.
Have a good one...cheers.

[LBM]

If you have information on someone illegally using another's tag, report it instead of bitching on HBC.

We raised with the CO Service the issue of youth seasons and the jealous "hunters" who accuse the kids' dads of shooting the deer. At all levels, the CO Service has responded that this is not a problem and that their patrols, stings, and data shows that it isn't happening as the jealous are portraying it.

So, although we have grumpy geezers crying about a 12 year old kid shooting "his" deer, in the end it is just bitching by grumpy geezers that need something to bitch about. And here we thought youth were the "entitled generation."

Bitching, report what don't have a clue what your talking about, as usual twisting things all around. Its quit sad really how you try to drive hunters away.
Can see by responses that others no what was being said.
If one mule deer is going to stop you and others from helping out new hunters that's your choice. There is many of us out there that are not concerned about
having to be the one pulling the trigger and would gladly give up our tags to others to use in the legal regulations that are provided. For many its about helping
others not thinking of ones self.

[303savage]

Are we going to see things go to a "Public Opinion/ Emotional Based Management" for the future??

That's what happened to the Grizzly bear hunt.

[horshur]

hunters with a ❤️ won't have any issues mentoring an initiation hunter..they aren't selfish....

[Wild one]

I guess the most of North America does not manage mule deer based on science or they would match closer to BC

Or is BC so magical our deer can handle anything

[boxhitch]

I guess the most of North America does not manage mule deer based on science or they would match closer to BC

Or is BC so magical our deer can handle anythingStill looking for that better management model. Different? no problem, but better?

2016 data for Alberta shows they killed about 6800 M Deer males and about 6800 M deer females. Pretty rosey in alberta

[HarryToolips]

Mule deer are growing in numbers in many places in the province right now and you want an LEH? Is it because you want to hopefully get a draw and have little competition? The best of biologists certainly don't recommend anything like this in the proposed changes (which you can still comment on). Why do people continue to ignore the science and the experts? Million dollar question....[/QUOTE]

I could care less if I get that draw, I've never gotten an LEH before and I apply every year. But if they're going to take away some of Mule Deer season wouldn't an LEH draw bring in more revenue. More Revenue=more research More Research=Better Idea of muley populations? Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see it being a bad idea at all[/QUOTE]
Wrong, $15 mule tags bought by everyone when there is a GOS will bring in far more revenue...the last thing we ever want to see is losing a GOS...look at moose in region 5, has LEH helped?

[Wild one]

Still looking for that better management model. Different? no problem, but better?

2016 data for Alberta shows they killed about 6800 M Deer males and about 6800 M deer females. Pretty rosey in alberta


Look into the buck vs doe ratio goals outside of BC to start

Now you get FD study that claims 1 buck to 10 does should be the goal do to the feed bucks consume vs fawn in winter range and this theory holds merit that seems logical. Claims higher buck numbers even have negative impact on populations

There is also studies that show ideal ratio is 1 buck to 5 does should be the min goal. The reason being does are bred earlier in the rut so fawns are born earlier in the season giving them a longer growing period during the optimal season. This results in stronger yearlings that are more likely to survive the winter. Some also believe mature buts are better for overall breeding. For this reason management for a % of a mature bucks is taken into consideration

The latter is a more common goal for buck vs doe ratio in North America.

Search this forum and you will notice posts with hunters taking note of fawns being born later in BC. Could our ratios be off resulting in late birth of fawns

You may only see how models are different but there is reasons. Some seem to forget there are many theories on wildlife management then what is posted as fact here.

Lots of things that conflict against the BC opinion of legal hunting has no impact as well

I don’t support BCs management because I experienced the results achieved in Alberta. This is what caused me to start looking into deer management more and ? Things.

I may not cut and paste but I do read A LOT and not just what is flogged here also look outside BC

Science is awesome with all its conflicting theories lol

[bownut]

Look into the buck vs doe ratio goals outside of BC to start

Now you get FD study that claims 1 buck to 10 does should be the goal do to the feed bucks consume vs fawn in winter range and this theory holds merit that seems logical. Claims higher buck numbers even have negative impact on populations

There is also studies that show ideal ratio is 1 buck to 5 does should be the min goal. The reason being does are bred earlier in the rut so fawns are born earlier in the season giving them a longer growing period during the optimal season. This results in stronger yearlings that are more likely to survive the winter. Some also believe mature buts are better for overall breeding. For this reason management for a % of a mature bucks is taken into consideration

The latter is a more common goal for buck vs doe ratio in North America.

Search this forum and you will notice posts with hunters taking note of fawns being born later in BC. Could our ratios be off resulting in late birth of fawns

You may only see how models are different but there is reasons. Some seem to forget there are many theories on wildlife management then what is posted as fact here.

Lots of things that conflict against the BC opinion of legal hunting has no impact as well

I don’t support BCs management because I experienced the results achieved in Alberta. This is what caused me to start looking into deer management more and ? Things.

I may not cut and paste but I do read A LOT and not just what is flogged here also look outside BC

Science is awesome with all its conflicting theories lol
That being said , I have posted Models on Antler Restrictions that not only Increase Recruitment, but also increase the age structure of the breeding bucks.
These models in management have been in place for quite some time in Michigan and now Wisconsin has adopted the policies. Funded Practices with
great results, isn't that what BC is striving for?

[Wild one]

That being said , I have posted Models on Antler Restrictions that not only Increase Recruitment, but also increase the age structure of the breeding bucks.
These models in management have been in place for quite some time in Michigan and now Wisconsin has adopted the policies. Funded Practices with
great results, isn't that what BC is striving for?


The genetic issues that have been proven in majority of areas that abandoned this practice is my top reason for not supporting it

Issue of short deer being shot and wasted is my second major reason. This issue was shown in the news article I mentioned regarding COs in 3-32 find a fair number of short bucks shot and left in Nov 2016

Myself these issues out way benefits of antler restrictions. I will stand by my support of restricting overall number of bucks harvested vs antler restrictions

I understand the logic of antler restrictions but the two major flaws I see from them out way the benefits in my opinion

[Stone Sheep Steve]

That being said , I have posted Models on Antler Restrictions that not only Increase Recruitment, but also increase the age structure of the breeding bucks.
These models in management have been in place for quite some time in Michigan and now Wisconsin has adopted the policies. Funded Practices with
great results, isn't that what BC is striving for?

Didnt know they were mule deer in Wisconsin and Michigan? Learn something new everyday.

[Wild one]

Didnt know they were mule deer in Wisconsin and Michigan? Learn something new everyday.

Enough info on areas that abandoned antler restrictions on WT

Truth of the matter is the flaws play true for both species

But antler restrictions are common practice still in BC and supported as a way to add hunter opportunity here.

[Fisher-Dude]

Didnt know they were mule deer in Wisconsin and Michigan? Learn something new everyday.

Just put in antler restrictions and mule deer grow miraculously on mule deer trees.

[horshur]

The opinions regarding scientific management hoisted on here by the people of the short arm club are no more scientific and no less social then every other knuckle dragger post who sees contrary. I guess those with diminutive reach are just as short sighted as there arms. Failing to see the big picture they pick fights with the long arms who reach gives them the advantage. Val Giest referred to "Joe Sixpack" as being what was great about the North American conservation model. The lack of elitism. What is short arm syndrome but elitism.
Nothing about the current regulation proposal will hurt Mule deer. Statistics suggest very few hunters will be effected cause only a small percent take a second deer anyway. This is what surveyed knuckle dragger hunters (joe sixpack) wanted.

[Salty]

The opinions regarding scientific management hoisted on here by the people of the short arm club are no more scientific and no less social then every other knuckle dragger post who sees contrary. I guess those with diminutive reach are just as short sighted as there arms. Failing to see the big picture they pick fights with the long arms who reach gives them the advantage. Val Giest referred to "Joe Sixpack" as being what was great about the North American conservation model. The lack of elitism. What is short arm syndrome but elitism.
Nothing about the current regulation proposal will hurt Mule deer. Statistics suggest very few hunters will be effected cause only a small percent take a second deer anyway. This is what surveyed knuckle dragger hunters (joe sixpack) wanted.

"knuckle draggers" "joe six pack" "short arm club"

I can't really decipher exactly what your point is there but its probably not the best way to try to make it. Too many people just looking to fight about all this, not most, but enough to make it hard to unite anything which is what we need. Mid winter cabin fever and the internet don't mix well :roll:

[MichelD]

Won't affect me much. Since I moved to Vancouver in 1986 and hunted enthusiastically in the interior every year I have taken exactly one mule deer in Region 3, one in 5 and one in 8.

[338win mag]

"knuckle draggers" "joe six pack" "short arm club"

I can't really decipher exactly what your point is there but its probably not the best way to try to make it. Too many people just looking to fight about all this, not most, but enough to make it hard to unite anything which is what we need. Mid winter cabin fever and the internet don't mix well :roll:
Ya he forgot the "stupid hunter club", you know the ones who want to shoot 2-3 mule deer because they have "families to feed" and a way of life to continue living, unfettered.

[Islander30]

Statistics suggest very few hunters will be effected cause only a small percent take a second deer anyway.

I'M not really sure what your point was in the first part of your post either, but if this part is true then it would seem to me that mule deer polpulation will also be un-effected by the regulation proposal. Therefore it would seem such a restriction is not only unnecessary but actually more accurately, nothing more than a smokescreen so the goverment doesnt have to address the real issue( wolves and habitat) which all the "knuckle draggers" as you call them are so upset about. Thats just my observation, I could be wrong.

[Wild one]

Ya he forgot the "stupid hunter club", you know the ones who want to shoot 2-3 mule deer because they have "families to feed" and a way of life to continue living, unfettered.

Unless you hunt close to home and achieve success in limited days Costco is cheap compared to mule deer hunting. Let’s be honest here tradition and way of life is valid but if you are traveling to hunt meat is not cost effective. If your road hunting odds are your bills are even higher

Love deer meat myself and 50/50 if I am looking for any buck or something big. I became honest with myself long ago I hunt for the hunt and meat is a treat that comes with it.

Guys really need to be honest why we hunt true meat hunters are rare.

[338win mag]

Unless you hunt close to home and achieve success in limited days Costco is cheap compared to mule deer hunting. Let’s be honest here tradition and way of life is valid but if you are traveling to hunt meat is not cost effective. If your road hunting odds are your bills are even higher

Love deer meat myself and 50/50 if I am looking for any buck or something big. I became honest with myself long ago I hunt for the hunt and meat is a treat that comes with it.

Guys really need to be honest why we hunt true meat hunters are rare.
Its not about economcs, if it were I would go to Costco, and I will be honest.

[338win mag]

I often shoot 3, if I get a draw thats what going to happen, and they wont be a rutting buck either, others may enjoy the flavor, I dont. I also dont road hunt nor have to travel very far to hunt, nor do my hunting friends who live near me.

[Islander30]

Unless you hunt close to home and achieve success in limited days Costco is cheap compared to mule deer hunting. Let’s be honest here tradition and way of life is valid but if you are traveling to hunt meat is not cost effective. If your road hunting odds are your bills are even higher

Love deer meat myself and 50/50 if I am looking for any buck or something big. I became honest with myself long ago I hunt for the hunt and meat is a treat that comes with it.

Guys really need to be honest why we hunt true meat hunters are rare.

I understand what you are saying, but "families to feed" is still a legitament argument because it doesnt neccassarly mean ones family is starving. However if one decides to go to all the expense to feed ones family via hunting(because one loves to hunt), it would be nice if one could actually bring home enough meat so that one doesn't have to go to Costco as well.

The same applies to fishing, the expense of my boat, fuel, trips to the west coast are far more than buying salmon and halibut at the store but at least I can say I havent bought fish from a store in probably 20 years....and I take great pleasure in seeing the price of wild salmon and halibut when I go shopping....makes me feel better about the money it costs to go fishing.

[303savage]

The B.C. Ministry of Forests is proposing new limits to mule deer

I thought hunting and fishing was under the ministry of fish and wildlife.

[steveo]

I think you hit the nail on the head. Obviously harvest data that is accurate would be very helpful at this point. If it is the case that most hunters only harvest one mule deer than this new regulation will do nothing to improve deer population. At the very least manage deer pops region to region and M-U to M-U. Putting a blanket regulation across the province seems like the government is just throwing a certain group a bone.

[Ourea]

There are several stakeholders that would love nothing more than to see LEH for different species and areas in the province. Not tough to figure that out. It sure aint for conservation but is being wrapped in that blanket.

[steveo]

I would also argue that it is not economical harvesting a couple of mule deer or even one over going to Costco. Obviously there are going to be perimeters that will make it less viable to make it economic for some but I think many hunters benefit from harvesting their own meat. In my area beef is 6-8 dollars a pound all in ( hook price, slaughter and butcher costs) so what would wild organic deer meat cost 10 dollars a pound. I harvest 2 decent bucks and get 75 pounds of deboned meat of off each one after I process them myself, that is 150 pounds of meat at 10 dollars a pound equals $1500 worth of venison. Even coming from the island that makes things viable and more economic.

[338win mag]

There are several stakeholders that would love nothing more than to see LEH for different species and areas in the province. Not tough to figure that out. It sure aint for conservation but is being wrapped in that blanket.
Yes, this is true^^^^
But it isn't easy to figure out, takes time, the average hunter doesn't have the time with busy lives etc

I'm also far from starving, lol, the only time I eat beef is when I go to a restaurant which I dont do very often, only when I'm starving.

[HarryToolips]

Unless you hunt close to home and achieve success in limited days Costco is cheap compared to mule deer hunting. Let’s be honest here tradition and way of life is valid but if you are traveling to hunt meat is not cost effective. If your road hunting odds are your bills are even higher

Love deer meat myself and 50/50 if I am looking for any buck or something big. I became honest with myself long ago I hunt for the hunt and meat is a treat that comes with it.

Guys really need to be honest why we hunt true meat hunters are rare.

Ain't that the truth..

[bownut]

Just put in antler restrictions and mule deer grow miraculously on mule deer trees.

Keep holding hands kids, you will need all the support you can get right now.
Good luck with your way of thinking, after all look where we stand now.

Do the math all you want to, simple fact is Wildlife is on the decline and nothing has been done to the regs to prevent it.

A 60 Day WT Doe Season in Region 8 is a good way to help the cause, and this future Mule Deer Resolution isn't going to help much.
After all didn't you say very few a filling the second tag anyway?

You and your group are the best Game Managers and Bios that ever set foot on this earth. Never willing to look at anything that would take
away your opportunity.

Keep it up and 20 years from now guys will use your quotes on how those guys did it all wrong.

[HarryToolips]

When we finally kick the NDP turds out of office and a proper funding model is established, I hope the MOE puts more $$ into actual harvest counts...I know they send us the questionnaires but they only ask every Hunter for specific hunts and animals..I always let them know what exactly I harvested, but if we had exact numbers harvested by regulated hunting instead of using confidence intervals it would be more accurate..

[HarryToolips]

Keep holding hands kids, you will need all the support you can get right now.
Good luck with your way of thinking, after all look where we stand now.

Do the math all you want to, simple fact is Wildlife is on the decline and nothing has been done to the regs to prevent it.

A 60 Day WT Doe Season in Region 8 is a good way to help the cause, and this future Mule Deer Resolution isn't going to help much.
After all didn't you say very few a filling the second tag anyway?

You and your group are the best Game Managers and Bios that ever set foot on this earth. Never willing to look at anything that would take
away your opportunity.

Keep it up and 20 years from now guys will use your quotes on how those guys did it all wrong.
Year after year I see the same number of whitetail on winter range in reg8.... Increased numbers in a few areas I frequent....half the season you talk about is bow only, very little impact overall..

[Salty]

Keep holding hands kids, you will need all the support you can get right now.
Good luck with your way of thinking, after all look where we stand now.

Do the math all you want to, simple fact is Wildlife is on the decline and nothing has been done to the regs to prevent it.

A 60 Day WT Doe Season in Region 8 is a good way to help the cause, and this future Mule Deer Resolution isn't going to help much.
After all didn't you say very few a filling the second tag anyway?

You and your group are the best Game Managers and Bios that ever set foot on this earth. Never willing to look at anything that would take
away your opportunity.

Keep it up and 20 years from now guys will use your quotes on how those guys did it all wrong.

What a condescending bunch of twaddle

[bownut]

What a condescending bunch of twaddle

OK Then. Is that simple enough for you?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Keep holding hands kids, you will need all the support you can get right now.
Good luck with your way of thinking, after all look where we stand now.

Do the math all you want to, simple fact is Wildlife is on the decline and nothing has been done to the regs to prevent it.

A 60 Day WT Doe Season in Region 8 is a good way to help the cause, and this future Mule Deer Resolution isn't going to help much.
After all didn't you say very few a filling the second tag anyway?

You and your group are the best Game Managers and Bios that ever set foot on this earth. Never willing to look at anything that would take
away your opportunity.

Keep it up and 20 years from now guys will use your quotes on how those guys did it all wrong.

This thread is about mule deer regulation changes. A whitetail regulation in a state with 15x the hunter density and with only a species or two to hunt has little correlation to this thread....and that is sugar-coating it.

Mule deer regulation changes will do nothing to help mule deer numbers. It may 'slightly' increase the buck to doe ratios but that's about it but it won't grow more deer. It may also decrease the hunting pressure which is purely a social issue...and what the Region 3 mule deer hunter survey that hunters wanted.

Shutting the mule deer buck hunt down completely will achieve the same effect.

SSS

[boxhitch]

I understand what you are saying, but "families to feed" is still a legitament argument because it doesnt neccassarly mean ones family is starving. However if one decides to go to all the expense to feed ones family via hunting(because one loves to hunt), it would be nice if one could actually bring home enough meat so that one doesn't have to go to Costco as well.

The same applies to fishing, the expense of my boat, fuel, trips to the west coast are far more than buying salmon and halibut at the store but at least I can say I havent bought fish from a store in probably 20 years....and I take great pleasure in seeing the price of wild salmon and halibut when I go shopping....makes me feel better about the money it costs to go fishing.


Unless you hunt close to home and achieve success in limited days Costco is cheap compared to mule deer hunting. Let’s be honest here tradition and way of life is valid but if you are traveling to hunt meat is not cost effective. If your road hunting odds are your bills are even higher

Love deer meat myself and 50/50 if I am looking for any buck or something big. I became honest with myself long ago I hunt for the hunt and meat is a treat that comes with it.

Guys really need to be honest why we hunt true meat hunters are rare.

So now you want to argue about how we justify our hunting? and you call yourselves hunters? Sounds like a couple of posers , not sure whose side you are on .

[boxhitch]

Keep holding hands kids, you will need all the support you can get right now.
Good luck with your way of thinking, after all look where we stand now.

Do the math all you want to, simple fact is Wildlife is on the decline and nothing has been done to the regs to prevent it.
20 years you might come to the realization most hunters already realize they are not the problem with game populations. but keep up the head banging, it will feel better when you stop

[Wild one]

So now you want to argue about how we justify our hunting? and you call yourselves hunters? Sounds like a couple of posers , not sure whose side you are on .

Been a hunter since I was 10 years old and hunted over most of BC and Alberta. I even hunt with majority of the legal weapons you can hunt with. Introduced a ton of new people to hunting. I pass on animals to give the less experienced hunter opportunity multiple times a year. 4 times last season to be exact

Yes 100% poser lmao

I am just not a BS follower and call it how I see it.

If I am not a hunter in your eyes oh well your opinion is not that valued nor do I care lol

[steveo]

Keep holding hands kids, you will need all the support you can get right now.
Good luck with your way of thinking, after all look where we stand now.

Do the math all you want to, simple fact is Wildlife is on the decline and nothing has been done to the regs to prevent it.

A 60 Day WT Doe Season in Region 8 is a good way to help the cause, and this future Mule Deer Resolution isn't going to help much.
After all didn't you say very few a filling the second tag anyway?

You and your group are the best Game Managers and Bios that ever set foot on this earth. Never willing to look at anything that would take
away your opportunity.

Keep it up and 20 years from now guys will use your quotes on how those guys did it all wrong.Not sure what you are meaning that there has been no restrictions or regulation changes to prevent population decline. I have been hunting for 28 years and have seen plenty new restrictions and not many new opportunities. How long have you been hunting?

[Wild one]

Not sure what you are meaning that there has been no restrictions or regulation changes to prevent population decline. I have been hunting for 28 years and have seen plenty new restrictions and not many new opportunities. How long have you been hunting?

Not much for big change in that time frame mule deer wise. Was any buck most of the season then swapped part of that for 4pt. Region 4 actually went from 4pt only to getting an any buck season. Memory may have missed something but nothing big

Still the same prov bag limit still long seasons. Mild variation is all in my opinion

[Ourea]

Regulation is not a factor on species and sexes that have no hunting/harvest yet their numbers (in general) are declining.

I truly struggle with a tool (regulation) is still being toted as a fix to wildlife declines.

I certainly do know that some stakeholders would love to see more restriction and LEH for the general hunter.
This platform is being disguised/ hidden under a blanket of conservation.

Think about who the players are other than res hunters

[horshur]

Regulation is not a factor on species and sexes that have no hunting/harvest yet their numbers (in general) are declining.

I truly struggle with a tool (regulation) is still being toted as a fix to wildlife declines.

I certainly do know that some stakeholders would love to see more restriction and LEH for the general hunter.
This platform is being disguised/ hidden under a blanket of conservation.

Think about who the players are other than res hunters

what tool do managers have to address declines? What have they done in recent history that was something other then a regulation?

[Wild one]

Regulation is not a factor on species and sexes that have no hunting/harvest yet their numbers (in general) are declining.

I truly struggle with a tool (regulation) is still be toted as a fix to wildlife declines.

I certainly do know that some stakeholders would love to see more restriction and LEH for the general hunter.
This platform is being disguised/ hidden under a blanket of conservation.

Think about who the players are other than res hunters

Correct not going to make any big changes in populations it is only utilizing what is presently available

Habitat like you always mention is better for increasing populations long term but takes years. Might be many more years before any habitat projects start as well. NDP/Greens still in power could be really long

Predators another issue but govt especially present one won’t touch this issue either

So no most are not thinking regs are going to fix populations but more so hope to maintain what we have till bigger issues can be addressed

and no not interest in LEH here and most calling for change are not interested in that either. I hear lots wanting change but LEH is not the common response


Also not a GO

[Fisher-Dude]

Bownut is from Kelowna.

I was at a presentation by Andrew Wilkinson in town today who spoke about wildlife sustainability and his commitment to it. As it turns out, I was the only hunter in the room asking about the real changes that will help our fish and wildlife, and getting our point across about the habitat work necessary to achieve it. I think bownut should have been there instead of staying home snuggling with the hunting regulations synopsis.

If hunters want to improve things, they'll have to get off their asses and get engaged with their MLAs and candidates, and tell them what we want. Sitting and bitching on here about hunting regulations won't improve anything.

On the bright side, Andrew really "gets it" and is committed to what we want to do. He asked good questions of me and also explained to the rest of the room how hunters are the real conservationists.

[Wild one]

The OP is from Kelowna.

I was at a presentation by Andrew Wilkinson in town today who spoke about wildlife sustainability and his commitment to it. As it turns out, I was the only hunter in the room asking about the real changes that will help our fish and wildlife, and getting our point across about the habitat work necessary to achieve it. I think the OP should have been there instead of staying home snuggling with the hunting regulations synopsis.

If hunters want to improve things, they'll have to get off their asses and get engaged with their MLAs and candidates, and tell them what we want. Sitting and bitching on here about hunting regulations won't improve anything.

On the bright side, Andrew really "gets it" and is committed to what we want to do. He asked good questions of me and also explained to the rest of the room how hunters are the real conservationists.


Your special lol

[Ourea]

what tool do managers have to address declines? What have they done in recent history that was something other then a regulation?

I know what they need.
They certainly don't have it now.
Some are trying to give them the tools to help in the rebuild and focus on wildlife.

[Fisher-Dude]

Your special lol

Your grammar sucks.

Have you been in to see your MLA yet?

[Asp]

Any muppet that thinks “ running to your mla” will effect change is delusional. How has that worked so far? Those that beat us went to the top !! What effects change is being involved politically, meaning have influence with ministers and premiers. Find that voice and wildlife will have a voice. Keep talking and promoting dealing with bureacrats and we will have the same shot as we have had over the past two decades ! Some like to take a good wage and continue on with the same losing strategy that has been employed over the last two decades. Time for a change for all people of Bc who hunt

[338win mag]

Any muppet that thinks “ running to your mla” will effect change is delusional. How has that worked so far? Those that beat us went to the top !! What effects change is being involved politically, meaning have influence with ministers and premiers. Find that voice and wildlife will have a voice. Keep talking and promoting dealing with bureacrats and we will have the same shot as we have had over the past two decades ! Some like to take a good wage and continue on with the same losing strategy that has been employed over the last two decades. Time for a change for all people of Bc who hunt

What kind of change?

[bownut]

Not sure what you are meaning that there has been no restrictions or regulation changes to prevent population decline. I have been hunting for 28 years and have seen plenty new restrictions and not many new opportunities. How long have you been hunting?

Hunted since 72' and still getting out there.
Take a look at Region 8 in the past 15 years, look for the Major Changes in that section. How does that look to you?
Increased Regional bag limits, longer seasons, ect. Then ask yourself what percentage of the BC hunters hunt in 8?

I am fully aware that the regs. changes will not fix the decline single handedly, but I have a hard time with the lack of conservative thinking
with our present condition.

Regs. History:
http://a100.gov.bc.ca/pub/acat/public/viewReport.do?reportId=22560

[Islander30]

So now you want to argue about how we justify our hunting? and you call yourselves hunters? Sounds like a couple of posers , not sure whose side you are on .

I wasn't arguing with anyone, I was just saying that when guys say they hunt to feed their familes I don't think they necessarily mean their families would starve if they didn't hunt. I personally am fine with any and all reasons guys use for hunting, and yes even "trophy" hunting, absolutley nothing wrong with trophy hunting in my opinion, especially for grizzly bears...lol !

[HarryToolips]

Hunted since 72' and still getting out there.
Take a look at Region 8 in the past 15 years, look for the Major Changes in that section. How does that look to you?
Increased Regional bag limits, longer seasons, ect. Then ask yourself what percentage of the BC hunters hunt in 8?

I am fully aware that the regs. changes will not fix the decline single handedly, but I have a hard time with the lack of conservative thinking
with our present condition.

Regs. History:
http://a100.gov.bc.ca/pub/acat/public/viewReport.do?reportId=22560
You do realize that the increased regional bag limit in region 8 is to put more pressure on whitetails right?? The regional bag limit of one mule deer in region 8 has been the same...so do you agree or disagree that whitetails in region 8 have increased in the last 15 years??

[steveo]

Hunted since 72' and still getting out there.
Take a look at Region 8 in the past 15 years, look for the Major Changes in that section. How does that look to you?
Increased Regional bag limits, longer seasons, ect. Then ask yourself what percentage of the BC hunters hunt in 8?

I am fully aware that the regs. changes will not fix the decline single handedly, but I have a hard time with the lack of conservative thinking
with our present condition.

Regs. History:
http://a100.gov.bc.ca/pub/acat/public/viewReport.do?reportId=22560 I don't see any increased bag limits for mule deer or longer seasons. Some major changes that would effect mule deer populations would be the addition of a trapping season on wolves, an added general season on wolves, extended cougar seasons and more motor vehicle restrictions to name a few. This is a province wide regulation but lets stay with your example of region 8, I don't know the hunter numbers but it sounds like there is many so if those same hunters choose to harvest their one buck in region 8, how is this area going to change at all. Besides if buck to doe ratio is fine how is not shooting surplus bucks increasing the deer pops. I still fail to see how your comment about no reg changes have been made for the betterment of mule deer pops is warranted.

[Wild one]

Your grammar sucks.

Have you been in to see your MLA yet?

Not worried about grammar on a hunting forum

All I had to do was talk to my MLA and everything would be solved ?

Been up to a lot more then talking to my MLA lol

[Wild one]

I don't see any increased bag limits for mule deer or longer seasons. Some major changes that would effect mule deer populations would be the addition of a trapping season on wolves, an added general season on wolves, extended cougar seasons and more motor vehicle restrictions to name a few. This is a province wide regulation but lets stay with your example of region 8, I don't know the hunter numbers but it sounds like there is many so if those same hunters choose to harvest their one buck in region 8, how is this area going to change at all. Besides if buck to doe ratio is fine how is not shooting surplus bucks increasing the deer pops. I still fail to see how your comment about no reg changes have been made for the betterment of mule deer pops is warranted.

Surplus bucks depend on the management theory being followed

Some theories believe keeping a ratio close to 1:10 so you don’t have too many bucks on the winter range using feed that could be used for fawns. Leaving enough bucks to breed

Other theories believe a ratio at a min of 1:5 so does are bred early in the rut. This results in fawns born earlier and get a longer growing period before winter. This creates stronger young that are more likely to survive the winter

Both theories are biased of of scientific studies and facts.

So what is the surplus?

[338win mag]

I wasn't arguing with anyone, I was just saying that when guys say they hunt to feed their familes I don't think they necessarily mean their families would starve if they didn't hunt. I personally am fine with any and all reasons guys use for hunting, and yes even "trophy" hunting, absolutley nothing wrong with trophy hunting in my opinion, especially for grizzly bears...lol !

Islander30
I got what you meant, thanks, "feeding your families" is still as valid today as it was 20-50 years ago.

[Fisher-Dude]

Hunted since 72' and still getting out there.
Take a look at Region 8 in the past 15 years, look for the Major Changes in that section. How does that look to you?
Increased Regional bag limits, longer seasons, ect. Then ask yourself what percentage of the BC hunters hunt in 8?

I am fully aware that the regs. changes will not fix the decline single handedly, but I have a hard time with the lack of conservative thinking
with our present condition.

Regs. History:
http://a100.gov.bc.ca/pub/acat/public/viewReport.do?reportId=22560

Average mule deer hunters in the 1990s in region 8 = 12,464 with any buck Sep 10 - Nov 15. Bag limit = 1. Archery was 10 days longer than it is now, late season started on Nov 16 through the rut.

Average mule deer hunters in region 8 the last 10 years = 11,241 with 4 pt Sep 10 - 30, any buck Oct 1 to 31, 4 pt Nov 1 - 10. Bag limit = 1.

What were you saying about increased limits and longer seasons and more hunters?

[bownut]

This thread is about mule deer regulation changes. A whitetail regulation in a state with 15x the hunter density and with only a species or two to hunt has little correlation to this thread....and that is sugar-coating it.

Mule deer regulation changes will do nothing to help mule deer numbers. It may 'slightly' increase the buck to doe ratios but that's about it but it won't grow more deer. It may also decrease the hunting pressure which is purely a social issue...and what the Region 3 mule deer hunter survey that hunters wanted.

Shutting the mule deer buck hunt down completely will achieve the same effect.

SSS

Your correct on a complete shut down, it things like Winery High Fences that corridor game though winter range that probably do more damage.

[Wild one]

Something to consider with the talk of surplus bucks

Alberta mule deer ratios in many MUs are ranging around 1:3. No doubt a different opinion on what surplus bucks being used in there management plan. You start searching you will find many places outside of BC keeping higher ratios

So surplus bucks truly seems to be no more then the management theory being used

It does not seem that any of these management plans BCs included limit the effects of winter kill under tough winter conditions

So surplus bucks as many here preach is no more then the opinion of the management plan being used

[bownut]

Bownut is from Kelowna.

I was at a presentation by Andrew Wilkinson in town today who spoke about wildlife sustainability and his commitment to it. As it turns out, I was the only hunter in the room asking about the real changes that will help our fish and wildlife, and getting our point across about the habitat work necessary to achieve it. I think bownut should have been there instead of staying home snuggling with the hunting regulations synopsis.

If hunters want to improve things, they'll have to get off their asses and get engaged with their MLAs and candidates, and tell them what we want. Sitting and bitching on here about hunting regulations won't improve anything.

On the bright side, Andrew really "gets it" and is committed to what we want to do. He asked good questions of me and also explained to the rest of the room how hunters are the real conservationists.

Hey Pat when I start having meetings with the Kelowna Fish and Game Club, I will be inviting them all to the sit down. Until then I will be working on some Projects for 2018. Projects like Burns, Corridor
Study, Forestry Practice, user Group Awareness Packages..Ect. So carry on being a D...k and keep sitting in that camp M.Hall speaks of.

I went to Jesse's Town Hall Meetings and sat and listen to what had to be said, I said what I had to say and thats it. My question ,if you were listening was "What are we going to do to be more Proactive, so we
don't have to look at our Bios when they are left to pick up the pieces".

A bit of history here Pat, I was a Regional Rep. when you were playing in the woods. I sat in on meetings shoulder up to some of your founding club reps. Ron Taylor and I pushed for the same issues
that you seem to think are new.

So next time think before you speak.

[bownut]

Average mule deer hunters in the 1990s in region 8 = 12,464 with any buck Sep 10 - Nov 15. Bag limit = 1. Archery was 10 days longer than it is now, late season started on Nov 16 through the rut.

Average mule deer hunters in region 8 the last 10 years = 11,241 with 4 pt Sep 10 - 30, any buck Oct 1 to 31, 4 pt Nov 1 - 10. Bag limit = 1.

What were you saying about increased limits and longer seasons and more hunters?

And what about the Access to these areas during these seasons. Could less hunters be getting to more areas?
It's a bigger than it looks.

[Fisher-Dude]

Something to consider with the talk of surplus bucks

Alberta mule deer ratios in many MUs are ranging around 1:3. No doubt a different opinion on what surplus bucks being used in there management plan. You start searching you will find many places outside of BC keeping higher ratios

So surplus bucks truly seems to be no more then the management theory being used

It does not seem that any of these management plans BCs included limit the effects of winter kill under tough winter conditions

So surplus bucks as many here preach is no more then the opinion of the management plan being used

Alberta has management objectives that are totally different from BC.

Interesting to note that when I read some of Alberta's composition surveys that the fawn:doe ratios were down around the 30:100 level, a level teetering on the edge of a rapid population decline. Buck:doe ratios were higher than fawn:doe ratios in those instances.

People that want to see a bunch of bucks are happy with high buck:doe ratios. People that want to see robust and growing populations want to see high fawn:doe ratios.

Depends what your objective is - putting a 180 on the ground or wildlife herd health and sustainability.

[Wild one]

Bownut

From seeing pics posted here on HBC and hearing from others predators in your area seem to be benefiting and utilizing the deer fences to increase their impact on deer.

I hope the corridor study is going to involve this issue

As for Pat he seems to forget lots of non Fed hunters are involved in wildlife

[Walking Buffalo]

Something to consider with the talk of surplus bucks

Alberta mule deer ratios in many MUs are ranging around 1:3. No doubt a different opinion on what surplus bucks being used in there management plan. You start searching you will find many places outside of BC keeping higher ratios

So surplus bucks truly seems to be no more then the management theory being used

It does not seem that any of these management plans BCs included limit the effects of winter kill under tough winter conditions

So surplus bucks as many here preach is no more then the opinion of the management plan being used


Care to tell us WHY some units in Alberta are managed for high buck to doe ratios?

Why are others managed for a lower ratio?

You might not like the reasons....

Don't forget to mention that ALL of this management is happening under a LEH system.

[bownut]

Bownut

From seeing pics posted here on HBC and hearing from others predators in your area seem to be benefiting and utilizing the deer fences to increase their impact on deer.

I hope the corridor study is going to involve this issue

As for Pat he seems to forget lots of non Fed hunters are involved in wildlife

Sad thing is I am a Fed Member and he still wants to pick sides. I keep it up with hopes for change.

The projects that I will be doing will have little to do with the Fed. Reading through the Pres. Report they have their plate full.
If Jesse is the Wildlife Restoration Director the our paths will someday cross. Until then focus on Wildlife.

As far as the fences go, you are correct, they create a predator trap. Just as a frozen lake does.
Eg.
A few years back I was watching a group of Mule Deer and Whitetails moving down into the farms and orchards through the winter.. The average count was about 16 -18 animals.
They found a small hole in the orchard fence that the bears made during the summer. In they went. The coyotes figured out quickly how easy it was to move in after dark through that hole
and sweep the land causing them to try to exit that hole. standing by that exit was always one and sometimes two dogs. The rest of the pack drove the deer into the fence so hard
the posts were leaning. That one winter they cleaned up on at least half the population. I kept wiring up that fence, but it was so old they found other ways in. I told the owner what was happening
and he didn't have a clue. He later opened his driveway at the lower end so they had a way out.

Ya Regs. changes alone won't change the the declines......

[Wild one]

Alberta has management objectives that are totally different from BC.

Interesting to note that when I read some of Alberta's composition surveys that the fawn:doe ratios were down around the 30:100 level, a level teetering on the edge of a rapid population decline. Buck:doe ratios were higher than fawn:doe ratios in those instances.

People that want to see a bunch of bucks are happy with high buck:doe ratios. People that want to see robust and growing populations want to see high fawn:doe ratios.

Depends what your objective is - putting a 180 on the ground or wildlife herd health and sustainability.


All depends on the years and regions your looking at regarding fawns. They experienced bad winter conditions few years back resulting in winter kill.

Like I said no management plan is safe from winter kill. Winter kill has hit regions of BC many times over history

Mother Nature is the factor of overall population crashes.

Like I said different management goals BC and Alberta basically different ends of the spectrum. Both provs have a history of up and down cycles in mule deer populations. This does not mean BC should adapt Alberta’s management goals but there is options beyond BCs present management.

The fact of the matter is the preaching of keeping a low buck vs doe ratio can be contradict with scientific studies and examples from outside of BC.

The truth of the matter is the ratio goals BC is using only offer long seasons in exchange for lower success rate and lower % of mature bucks. It is less to do with winter survival and herd health.

If BCs management plan was so good we would not be discussing declining mule deer populations and hunters would not be considering change

Rather then hiding behind the farce of population health when it comes to BCs mule deer management let’s be honest it is no more then picking the management theories that benefit keeping with Max harvest/opportunity goals

But I don’t expect you to admit to that instead you will pick and choose examples/studies that benefit your views and try to discredit anything that does not support it

[Wild one]

Care to tell us WHY some units in Alberta are managed for high buck to doe ratios?

Why are others managed for a lower ratio?

You might not like the reasons....

Don't forget to mention that ALL of this management is happening under a LEH system.


I understand Albertas has trophy management and also know winter range is considered in some areas

It was only giving an example that low buck vs doe ratio is not need for herd health. There is not a set magic ratio that can be applied to a whole prov for optimal results

It is showing there is options beyond the management preached here

[Walking Buffalo]

I understand Albertas has trophy management and also know winter range is considered in some areas

It was only giving an example that low buck vs doe ratio is not need for herd health. There is not a set magic ratio that can be applied to a whole prov for optimal results

It is showing there is options beyond the management preached here

As you noted, these high buck ratio units are managed for increased trophy potential.
This was pushed for by the ABA (bowhunters) and APOS (outfitters).
We also have Landowner permits in these units.
All of these units are under a draw system.
Residents have to wait 8-10 years to get a buck tag.

This has lead to a situation where Resident licences are VERY restricted, often accessing less than 25% of the Trophy Allowable Harvest, Landowners lock up their land for themselves, and Outfitters have a high value permit.

Sounds great?


If you want to take this tact, be concise.
The range of Harvest regimes range from no restrictions to a complete closure.
There is a red line that allows maximum harvest that contains mature bucks while maintaining population levels.
This seems to be what is being preached here.

[horshur]

Bucks select habitat for different requirements....so are they competitive or not? Actual BC study.
http://www.sgrc.selkirk.ca/bioatlas/pdf/Habitat_Selection_by_Mule_Deer_in_Southeastern_Bri tish_Columbia.pdf

[Wild one]

2 questions for those preaching scientific management and habitat

Why run a management plan with the same ratio goals and apply the same(or very similar) seasons across a diverse range of habitat?

With habitat being the biggest factor when it comes to mule deer does it not make sense with how diverse BCs range of habitat is to apply a variety of management plans

Or does this go against the agenda because it might confuse some hunters with regs being too complicated?

[Wild one]

As you noted, these high buck ratio units are managed for increased trophy potential.
This was pushed for by the ABA (bowhunters) and APOS (outfitters).
We also have Landowner permits in these units.
All of these units are under a draw system.
Residents have to wait 8-10 years to get a buck tag.

This has lead to a situation where Resident licences are VERY restricted, often accessing less than 25% of the Trophy Allowable Harvest, Landowners lock up their land for themselves, and Outfitters have a high value permit.

Sounds great?


If you want to take this tact, be concise.
The range of Harvest regimes range from no restrictions to a complete closure.
There is a red line that allows maximum harvest that contains mature bucks while maintaining population levels.
This seems to be what is being preached here.

Know Alberta mule deer hunting issues well I lived and hunted/hunt there. It is far from a perfect system it has some advantages and also comes with flaws. I am not suggesting BC apply Alberta’s mule deer management

It was being used as an example on how different management can run higher buck vs doe ratios then 1:10 and not have a complete population crash as some claim

Both BC and Alberta are managed more so by hunting organizations pushing agendas. We just have a different agenda being pushed here and it’s hiding behind selectively picking scientific studies

BC does need its own management plan not Alberta’s

[steveo]

2 questions for those preaching scientific management and habitat

Why run a management plan with the same ratio goals and apply the same(or very similar) seasons across a diverse range of habitat?

With habitat being the biggest factor when it comes to mule deer does it not make sense with how diverse BCs range of habitat is to apply a variety of management plans

Or does this go against the agenda because it might confuse some hunters with regs being too complicated? Good point and I totally agree. The point has already been brought up that this is a blanket regulation across the province and should be managed region to region and m-u to m-u, far from micro-managing. Seems like a reg change to appease a certain group.

[Wild one]

Good point and I totally agree. The point has already been brought up that this is a blanket regulation across the province and should be managed region to region and m-u to m-u, far from micro-managing. Seems like a reg change to appease a certain group.

There is more to this proposal then being shown here

[horshur]

As you noted, these high buck ratio units are managed for increased trophy potential.
This was pushed for by the ABA (bowhunters) and APOS (outfitters).
We also have Landowner permits in these units.
All of these units are under a draw system.
Residents have to wait 8-10 years to get a buck tag.

This has lead to a situation where Resident licences are VERY restricted, often accessing less than 25% of the Trophy Allowable Harvest, Landowners lock up their land for themselves, and Outfitters have a high value permit.

Sounds great ?.

No it doesn't but what is the alternative and is it really palatable? Especially for wildlife.

Do you think landowners are going to open there gates to residents with open arms free of charge? The answer is No! There has to be incentives. When the average value of the resource is emotional sentiment and a $ 36.95 tag..it is little wonder. This is the danger of appeasing the "others". It ends up devaluing the resource. It is the bitter pill.

[steveo]

No it doesn't but what is the alternative and is it really palatable? Especially for wildlife.

Do you think landowners are going to open there gates to residents with open arms free of charge? The answer is No! There has to be incentives. When the average value of the resource is emotional sentiment and a $ 36.95 tag..it is little wonder. This is the danger of appeasing the "others". It ends up devaluing the resource. It is the bitter pill. I thought the incentive for a land owner/rancher to let hunters in would be to not have 100 mule deer on their field all day long eating feed that could be going to livestock or elk coming and ripping their round bales apart.

[horshur]

For what it's worth the one mule deer limit will spread the buck harvest to more individuals. Instead of one hunter getting two..it will be two hunters getting one each.

[horshur]

I thought the incentive for a land owner/rancher to let hunters in would be to not have 100 mule deer on their field all day long eating feed that could be going to livestock or elk coming and ripping their round bales apart.
They will just fence them out...

[steveo]

They will just fence them out... Fence what out?

[horshur]

They fence out the deer and elk..they are more of a problem then they are worth.

[Wild one]

Alberta’s landowner tags are to give landowners incentive to keep habitat for wildlife rather then develop it all into farmland. This is the reason I was given when I lived out there

It is not to give hunters access. Landowners are not allowed to charge a fee to hunters in Alberta. They can also be denied crop damage if it is proven they deny all hunting on their land. The don’t have to let everyone though

Alberta tries to promote hunter access and the use of hunters to deal with problems regarding crops

[Ourea]

For what it's worth the one mule deer limit will spread the buck harvest to more individuals. Instead of one hunter getting two..it will be two hunters getting one each.


I am a bit off topic here but......
Reality is a lot of hunters are plain and simply sh*tty at the sport.

I find it kinda funny that many look to regulation as a means to greater success.
It's like the brutal golfer who continually invests in upgrading his clubs to be a better golfer rather than in lessons.

Those that know what they're doing will always find success no matter what the regs are.

[M.Dean]

+1 on this one. Lets just say that reg went through, a man be a damn fool to stand in the middle of the trail when you see me comm'in on my quad! Come on, ban all quads! Maybe you just don't know how to bloody deer hunt??? I can't count the deer I've seen well riding my quad! In one season!

[horshur]

I am a bit off topic here but......
Reality is a lot of hunters are plain and simply sh*tty at the sport.

I find it kinda funny that many look to regulation as a means to greater success.
It's like the brutal golfer who continually invests in upgrading his clubs to be a better golfer rather than in lessons.

Those that know what they're doing will always find success no matter what the regs are.
But that's not who the average is...and it will translate. Some who didn't before will. Fish will post up the stats that harvest rate is same..so it didn't do nothing. But actually it did. Somebody else got a buck. Maybe even someone's kid...

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Your correct on a complete shut down, it things like Winery High Fences that corridor game though winter range that probably do more damage.

Totally agree with fences on winter range. No argument there.

[steveo]

But that's not who the average is...and it will translate. Some who didn't before will. Fish will post up the stats that harvest rate is same..so it didn't do nothing. But actually it did. Somebody else got a buck. Maybe even someone's kid... That is an interesting theory but from my experience it is the same hunter that gets two deer every year and the same hunter that gets none, slowing the better hunter down so the weaker hunter can keep up will probably not happen with this reg change, at least not change for the better like most think it will. While bowhunting an area day after day I see less and less deer just from pressure from myself, every deer reacts to that pressure the same way. I am sure lots of hunters think more big bucks on a hillside is like a mathematical equation that equals their chances bettering in accordance to percents gained but once the pressure level has been met, all the deer are in hunting season survival mode.

[horshur]

That is an interesting theory but from my experience it is the same hunter that gets two deer every year and the same hunter that gets none, slowing the better hunter down so the weaker hunter can keep up will probably not happen with this reg change, at least not change for the better like most think it will. While bowhunting an area day after day I see less and less deer just from pressure from myself, every deer reacts to that pressure the same way. I am sure lots of hunters think more big bucks on a hillside is like a mathematical equation that equals their chances bettering in accordance to percents gained but once the pressure level has been met, all the deer are in hunting season survival mode.
stats will show I guess then eh? it will meet the stated objectives.

[Bugle M In]

What's needed is a Graph here.

Start from 1960 til 2017, and on it, put:
Wildlife #'s, Hunter #'s, Hunting Reg Chages (pages), Beetle Kill (Hectare Size),Pred #'s, Prescribed Burns.

It won't take most to see the reality then.
You will see Regs Changes going Up (leh and closures, and shortened dates etc), You will see Beetle Kill going up,
You will see Preds like wolf going up.
Hunter #'s are down, wildlife # down, and prescribed burns are probably down as well.

It should be really obvious whats happened over the years, or what hasn't happened over the years.
So why argue for more Regs is beyond me, to fix the problems.
Look at what went up.

[338win mag]

They will just fence them out...
Who's gonna pay for that?

[steveo]

Who's gonna pay for that? I can't see fencing a section of land with 8 foot high wildlife fencing as being viable but I don't live in Alberta to see for myself. Pertaining to B.C., farmers in the peace were voicing crop damage so reg change followed suit to harvest I believe 3 mulie does which was soon abandon after a severe winter and around that time there was also a reg which allowed only one mule deer in a three year period. To my knowledge high fence was not part of the conversation while these mule deer regs were being implemented.

[scoutlt1]

A "regulations and policy analyst" states that "mountain pine beetle, wildfires, oil and gas development and forestry have all changed the landscape resulting in a declining mule deer population". Habitat.
Auditor General's report on Grizzly bears. Habitat.

So called "solution" for these "problems" by the powers that be? Cancel the Grizzly bear hunt, and reduce hunter opportunity for mule deer.

Pardon me for being rather suspicious and cynical, but.....

[limit time]

A little of topic, I have noticed Grouse numbers way Down also.

[Wild one]

A little of topic, I have noticed Grouse numbers way Down also.

They are affected by weather big time and populations fluctuate all the time. Can be really boom and bust

Cold wet springs really knock down the number of chicks that hatch.

[Wild one]

Really the whole mule deer bag limit it seems we will see results in time

[limit time]

They are affected by weather big time and populations fluctuate all the time. Can be really boom and bust

Cold wet springs really knock down the number of chicks that hatch.

I always thought road hunters and a big bag limits are to blame.

[Wild one]

I always thought road hunters and a big bag limits are to blame.

Some might be all over your theory lol

[Rob Chipman]

Wild One:

I'm not supper knowledgeable about this subject but..."Like I said no management plan is safe from winter kill"... the presentation on mule deer from Mark Hebblewhite I saw indicated that surveys of precipitation were a pretty good, and early indicator of winter survival (including fawn health, etc).

I'm not sure how solid the hypothesis is (he was pretty confident) and you may have seen the presentation, but I think he's saying that if there is good habitat and a good autumn green up, deer go into the winter in good shape and survive it much better. We may think it's the cold winter that hammers them but I think he indicated it was lack of nutrition arising from a dryer fall. Again, I don't know enough to make a judgement, but the advantage of this way of looking at things (assuming it delivers accuracy) is that you can predict what will happen next year in the fall, rather than waiting for winter aerial counts.

I think it's clear from the competing views and opinions, that more collars and more A/B testing is needed. Science and funding.

[Ourea]

Wild One:

I'm not supper knowledgeable about this subject but..."Like I said no management plan is safe from winter kill"... the presentation on mule deer from Mark Hebblewhite I saw indicated that surveys of precipitation were a pretty good, and early indicator of winter survival (including fawn health, etc).

I'm not sure how solid the hypothesis is (he was pretty confident) and you may have seen the presentation, but I think he's saying that if there is good habitat and a good autumn green up, deer go into the winter in good shape and survive it much better. We may think it's the cold winter that hammers them but I think he indicated it was lack of nutrition arising from a dryer fall. Again, I don't know enough to make a judgement, but the advantage of this way of looking at things (assuming it delivers accuracy) is that you can predict what will happen next year in the fall, rather than waiting for winter aerial counts.

I think it's clear from the competing views and opinions, that more collars and more A/B testing is needed. Science and funding.

^^^^^^^^100%

[Wild one]

Wild One:

I'm not supper knowledgeable about this subject but..."Like I said no management plan is safe from winter kill"... the presentation on mule deer from Mark Hebblewhite I saw indicated that surveys of precipitation were a pretty good, and early indicator of winter survival (including fawn health, etc).

I'm not sure how solid the hypothesis is (he was pretty confident) and you may have seen the presentation, but I think he's saying that if there is good habitat and a good autumn green up, deer go into the winter in good shape and survive it much better. We may think it's the cold winter that hammers them but I think he indicated it was lack of nutrition arising from a dryer fall. Again, I don't know enough to make a judgement, but the advantage of this way of looking at things (assuming it delivers accuracy) is that you can predict what will happen next year in the fall, rather than waiting for winter aerial counts.

I think it's clear from the competing views and opinions, that more collars and more A/B testing is needed. Science and funding.

Every man who puts out a study is confident in his theories and often there is merit to them.

There is no lack of studies to show the factors that contribute to winter kill and no it’s not cold that is well known

Is it possible to predict winter kill well in advance maybe but Mother Nature has a habit of making a fool of man when trying to predict weather conditions. Especially how harsh or long winter will be. Being able to see factors that help contribute to winter kill in advance is not new

The great contradiction is how to best manage a deer herd to survive with the lowest impact under these conditions

Nothing wrong with further study but research available data first so the wheel is not being reinvented. Or come to a theory that has been tested elsewhere and proven a failure already.

[bownut]

Hey maybe everyone should take a deep, hold it, hold it hold it, and let it out. Now close this BS site down for a while, go crack a cold one and relax.

When you feel your heart rate drop, go back to the keyboard and google "The Ecology And Management Of Mule Deer And Whitetail Deer In Montana" by RJ Mackie, and G. Pac. 1998'
Its 168 pages full of information ,but make sure you Read the preface and understand that this and every other study is deemed inconclusive, why? because of the ever changing Ecology.
So I guess the old saying is true about theories and ass holes. At least the Bios understand that change is a for sure thing.

Now if someone wants to comment on how "that's Montana and this is BC, apples and oranges BS" look at how often this report is used in our Ministry Policies.
Enjoy the read.

[Salty]

Relax? I don't see anyone needing to relax? Close the site down? In your dreams. lmao

Bownut you want to severely restrict all mule deer hunting except for bow hunting as you seem to think this will magically happen and you will be wading through bucks to get to your spot. You've said this and you post this in round about ways its very obvious. But you're not going to convince 90% of the people here with all the grandstanding in the world to not follow the experts and the science, but go with your very unsupported theories; to put it politely.

[Weatherby Fan]

Hey maybe everyone should take a deep, hold it, hold it hold it, and let it out. Now close this BS site down for a while, go crack a cold one and relax.

When you feel your heart rate drop, go back to the keyboard and google "The Ecology And Management Of Mule Deer And Whitetail Deer In Montana" by RJ Mackie, and G. Pac. 1998'
Its 168 pages full of information ,but make sure you Read the preface and understand that this and every other study is deemed inconclusive, why? because of the ever changing Ecology.
So I guess the old saying is true about theories and ass holes. At least the Bios understand that change is a for sure thing.

Now if someone wants to comment on how "that's Montana and this is BC, apples and oranges BS" look at how often this report is used in our Ministry Policies.
Enjoy the read.


Maybe you should take a really deep breath and relax, pull your BS membership from HBC for a year or two and just go relax............and move to Montana where it's perfect..........:wink::mrgreen:

[Wild one]

Maybe you should take a really deep breath and relax, pull your BS membership from HBC for a year or two and just go relax............and move to Montana where it's perfect..........:wink::mrgreen:

Nope he should stick around I don’t agree with everything he says but he does not follow the flock

Maybe read the study he mentioned might be a worth while read

[bownut]

Hey maybe everyone should take a deep, hold it, hold it hold it, and let it out. Now close this BS site down for a while, go crack a cold one and relax.

When you feel your heart rate drop, go back to the keyboard and google "The Ecology And Management Of Mule Deer And Whitetail Deer In Montana" by RJ Mackie, and G. Pac. 1998'
Its 168 pages full of information ,but make sure you Read the preface and understand that this and every other study is deemed inconclusive, why? because of the ever changing Ecology.
So I guess the old saying is true about theories and ass holes. At least the Bios understand that change is a for sure thing.

Now if someone wants to comment on how "that's Montana and this is BC, apples and oranges BS" look at how often this report is used in our Ministry Policies.
Enjoy the read.

My Bad I meant to say bs thread no site "sorry Gatehouse"

[bownut]

Relax? I don't see anyone needing to relax? Close the site down? In your dreams. lmao

Bownut you want to severely restrict all mule deer hunting except for bow hunting as you seem to think this will magically happen and you will be wading through bucks to get to your spot. You've said this and you post this in round about ways its very obvious. But you're not going to convince 90% of the people here with all the grandstanding in the world to not follow the experts and the science, but go with your very unsupported theories; to put it politely.

You don't get it bud, as far as Bow Seasons go most of my hunting with the bow is done during the GOS, so make your own stories and leave me out of them. Unsupported Theories you say, every bit of information I have brought
forward is from Funded Science. So whats next.
I am not here to convince anyone, that's a heavy plow to pull, all I am doing is passing on information other than the old data and tactics. Time to get with the times. That's what Goatguy quoted in past threads.
If success is happening elsewhere should we continue to chip away at the wheel?
Funny how you and others try to continue to try and paint me as the bad guy, when all I want to see is a success story now and then. Who is the real man in black?

[bownut]

Maybe you should take a really deep breath and relax, pull your BS membership from HBC for a year or two and just go relax............and move to Montana where it's perfect..........:wink::mrgreen:

No Comment.

[Weatherby Fan]

Nope he should stick around I don’t agree with everything he says but he does not follow the flock

Maybe read the study he mentioned might be a worth while read

Whats this flock you speak of enlighten me..??

And if he really thinks this site is BS just go away, don't go away mad just go away.....no really just go away !

[338win mag]

A little of topic, I have noticed Grouse numbers way Down also.
Without any thinking at all, a 1 grouse bag limit will take care of this problem.

[Salty]

Without any thinking at all, a 1 grouse bag limit will take care of this problem.

I'd go right to limited entry, except for bow hunting of course :lol:

[HappyJack]

I can't see fencing a section of land with 8 foot high wildlife fencing as being viable but I don't live in Alberta to see for myself. Pertaining to B.C., farmers in the peace were voicing crop damage so reg change followed suit to harvest I believe 3 mulie does which was soon abandon after a severe winter and around that time there was also a reg which allowed only one mule deer in a three year period. To my knowledge high fence was not part of the conversation while these mule deer regs were being implemented.

Biggest joke going around. Someone could hunt the Peace, shoot a mule deer and tag it...drive home to Quesnel and tell the butcher he shot it in 7A. Year after year after year. Unless they were physically stopped at a game check they got away with it. Never could understand why they have two region 7s.

[stan]

To many white guys with guns , way to long of a season,region 8 for sure. I know.

[scoutlt1]

To many white guys with guns , way to long of a season,region 8 for sure. I know.

Really????

[stan]

Ya really , not many mules o the premium ok winter range . Almost unreal the decline in 10 years. It’s not wolves man . I live on primo winter range i speak from a position of clear observation that not many are lucky enough to have.

[HarryToolips]

Good point and I totally agree. The point has already been brought up that this is a blanket regulation across the province and should be managed region to region and m-u to m-u, far from micro-managing. Seems like a reg change to appease a certain group.
I believe the problem is the funding...if we had the funding to do proper counts, and studies that could confirm what areas could sustain a higher harvest then we would see that, so until all of our hunting revenue goes back into wildlife and habitat, I don't believe we'll see region specific regulations..

[stan]

You ain’t gonna buy deer genius

[stan]

No point sugar coating , too much access , too liberal of any buck season . Youth seasons and leh doe draws .way too many white guys on quads with guns. Me included.

[stan]

Hey , let’s create another tax , that will fix it all up , lol

[HarryToolips]

I agree Stan that there is too much access in region 8, that needs to be addressed for sure....I wouldn't blame overall declines however on white guys with quads, if anything it's those that hunt 24/7/365 that is more concerning..

[338win mag]

To many native guys with guns , way to long of a season,region 8 for sure. I know.
Fixed it for you stan.

[limit time]

Ya really , not many mules o the premium ok winter range . Almost unreal the decline in 10 years. It’s not wolves man . I live on primo winter range i speak from a position of clear observation that not many are lucky enough to have.
So your the type that would move onto and mess up winter range...also a bigot you are :)

[limit time]

to many white guys with guns , way to long of a season,region 8 for sure. I know.
lol .........

[REMINGTON JIM]

A little of topic, I have noticed Grouse numbers way Down also.

I haven't Seen a 4 pt Grouse in years ! :grin: RJ

[stan]

Natives don’t typically kill deer, moose now that’s a different story

[358mag]

Natives don’t typically kill deer, moose now that’s a different story

Not sure what region your talking about , but in Region 8 the FN's load up on Mule deer ,< think the Whitetails are a little to quick for them > cow+ bull elk.
Keepers of the Land

[Weatherby Fan]

I haven't Seen a 4 pt Grouse in years ! :grin: RJ

FD and his road hunting crew have decimated the population......I say ban all hunting in vehicles, only hunting on foot from pavement and close the any buck grouse season....shorten the season to Sept 10-11.......should help the population rebound in no time

[Fisher-Dude]

A little of topic, I have noticed Grouse numbers way Down also.

Grouse experience 85% mortality in their first year whether they are hunted or not. Hunting is 100% compensatory mortality and is subservient to weather events.

Next subject? Bow only skunk seasons?

[Salty]

Wet spring this year, better luck next year. Even so I did see quite a few chickens in areas this season although I was too focused on persuing spiker muleys and white tail does with my quad to actually look for them


























--- :mrgreen:

[limit time]

Grouse experience 85% mortality in their first year whether they are hunted or not. Hunting is 100% compensatory mortality and is subservient to weather events.

Next subject? Bow only skunk seasons?

you eat skunk ? Why would you kill it if you don’t eat it ?;)

[IronNoggin]

Natives don’t typically kill deer, moose now that’s a different story

The complete opposite is true on the Island.
Jack-lighting goes on nightly.
Deer are openly sold to both FN & non FN.
When an elk is encountered, they at times kill it. Then often leave it as it is far to heavy to extract easily.
Cannot count on all fingers and toes the number of "lost" blacktails encountered within rifle range of the roads.
Blacktail populations in the areas not gated have plummeted, and continue to do so.

Sad state of affairs... :-(
Nog

[REMINGTON JIM]

FD and his road hunting crew have decimated the population......I say ban all hunting in vehicles, only hunting on foot from pavement and close the any buck grouse season....shorten the season to Sept 10-11.......should help the population rebound in no time

YEA ! and maybe a only " Archery " season too ! :p RJ

[wideopenthrottle]

some are suggesting more hunting of wolves....yet also acknowledging that hunting DEER is not the most significant effect on deer pops....what makes these folks think hunting wolves would have a significant effect on their populations.....sometimes we hunters are as misinformed as the antis

[limit time]

some are suggesting more hunting of wolves....yet also acknowledging that hunting DEER is not the most significant effect on deer pops....what makes these folks think hunting wolves would have a significant effect on their populations.....sometimes we hunters are as misinformed as the antis

Well im no expert as you can tell, but IMO , just like most of the posts on this thread... If you killed as many wolf and yots as deer, I think it would help. It would also help all other animals IMO. How much is the real question .

[Fisher-Dude]

some are suggesting more hunting of wolves....yet also acknowledging that hunting DEER is not the most significant effect on deer pops....what makes these folks think hunting wolves would have a significant effect on their populations.....sometimes we hunters are as misinformed as the antis

Wolves don't have a significant effect on deer from the studies conducted. Analysis of scat indicate as little as 1% mortality across study areas by wolves. Some areas may get hit harder if moose numbers are low, but in general, they don't determine deer populations (despite what "local" anecdotal opinion is).

But wolves do have a dramatic effect on moose, elk, and the few caribou we have left.

Moose are a target, preferred species for wolves. They'll kill whatever else they encounter if they can get them, but their efforts are focussed on moose in moose habitat.

[Salty]

some are suggesting more hunting of wolves....yet also acknowledging that hunting DEER is not the most significant effect on deer pops....what makes these folks think hunting wolves would have a significant effect on their populations.....sometimes we hunters are as misinformed as the antis

Pretty hard to compare the two. Deer killed by hunters is a small percentage of how they die that's been proven 6 ways from Sunday. Wolves don't really have natural predators so a bunch of wolves killed by humans will have a higher over all impact.

[guest]

Natives don’t typically kill deer, moose now that’s a different story

Wow, you best hunt more areas that you perceive this then .......... I couldn't disagree with you more on this issue, I'm presently hunting Reg, 2,3,5 and 8.......

[Wild one]

Wolves don't have a significant effect on deer from the studies conducted. Analysis of scat indicate as little as 1% mortality across study areas by wolves. Some areas may get hit harder if moose numbers are low, but in general, they don't determine deer populations (despite what "local" anecdotal opinion is).

But wolves do have a dramatic effect on moose, elk, and the few caribou we have left.

Moose are a target, preferred species for wolves. They'll kill whatever else they encounter if they can get them, but their efforts are focussed on moose in moose habitat.


Correct when elk and/or moose present most studies show low wolf predation on deer. Cougar, coyote, and black bear are way larger impact on deer under these conditions

Now when elk/moose numbers are low or non existent there are studies that show wolf predation actually increases a lot not just a little when it comes to deer.

Wolves are not specialized predators and adapt to avialible prey species but yes they have proffered prey. Wolves effects on deer is more about available prey species

Still Cougar and coyote have a larger impact on mule deer

[IronNoggin]

Now when elk/moose numbers are low or non existent there are studies that show wolf predation actually increases a lot not just a little when it comes to deer...

And this is exactly why I detest generalizations.
Although there are Elk on the Island, they are rather much NOT preferred prey for wolves.
Yummy little blacktails certainly are.

Yes, the cats play a large role as well, but even for FD, it is well reaching to suggest that "Wolves don't have a significant effect on deer from the studies conducted". That right there is what I'd call bullshit if we're looking province wide. And in areas where the moose / elk / alternative populations are low or do not exist, is about as far out as one can get.

Cheers,
Nog

[Wild one]

And this is exactly why I detest generalizations.
Although there are Elk on the Island, they are rather much NOT preferred prey for wolves.
Yummy little blacktails certainly are.

Yes, the cats play a large role as well, but even for FD, it is well reaching to suggest that "Wolves don't have a significant effect on deer from the studies conducted". That right there is what I'd call bullshit if we're looking province wide. And in areas where the moose / elk / alternative populations are low or do not exist, is about as far out as one can get.

Cheers,
Nog

I have read the study for northern Vancouver Island and it showed really high impact on BT do to wolf predation. It supports what you are saying 100%. Did not focus on this because it’s FD his defence would have been well that’s not mule deer lol

overall I am in agreement that wolf predation on deer is high in parts of BC

[Ourea]

When you're hungry.....preferred meals go out the window.

[houndogger]

Wolves don't have a significant effect on deer from the studies conducted. Analysis of scat indicate as little as 1% mortality across study areas by wolves. Some areas may get hit harder if moose numbers are low, but in general, they don't determine deer populations (despite what "local" anecdotal opinion is).

But wolves do have a dramatic effect on moose, elk, and the few caribou we have left.

Moose are a target, preferred species for wolves. They'll kill whatever else they encounter if they can get them, but their efforts are focussed on moose in moose habitat.
Effects of wolf predation on recruitment of black-tailed deer on northeastern Vancouver Island by Ian Hatter 1988

[Wild one]

You guys be careful if you don’t agree with FD you might be a GO or anti LMAO

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Wouldn't it have been great to have our own studies conducted AS stuff was actually happening?

Building a population of wolves with good elk or moose numbers is definitely going to have out-reaching effects on other game.....including deer and black bears.

SSS

[Timbow]

Wouldn't it have been great to have our own studies conducted AS stuff was actually happening?

Building a population of wolves with good elk or moose numbers is definitely going to have out-reaching effects on other game.....including deer and black bears.

SSS

Could not have said it any better.....might even find cow hair in the scat.

[dana]

Wolves don't have a significant effect on deer from the studies conducted. Analysis of scat indicate as little as 1% mortality across study areas by wolves. Some areas may get hit harder if moose numbers are low, but in general, they don't determine deer populations (despite what "local" anecdotal opinion is).

But wolves do have a dramatic effect on moose, elk, and the few caribou we have left.

Moose are a target, preferred species for wolves. They'll kill whatever else they encounter if they can get them, but their efforts are focussed on moose in moose habitat.

FD, I invite you to shut your computer off, come out of your mother's basement, and take a drive up to Clearwater. I will personally show you all my hidey holes that are currently void of deer because of Wolves. You can sit on your high horse making assumptions or you can actually put boots on the ground and see for youself. And before you go off about logging and all that BS as blame, my hidey holes have zero logging as they are in a very large wilderness area where wolves are actually protected. I was just up yesterday. All i can find is some pretty waterfalls.

[Gateholio]

Wolves don't have a significant effect on deer from the studies conducted. Analysis of scat indicate as little as 1% mortality across study areas by wolves. Some areas may get hit harder if moose numbers are low, but in general, they don't determine deer populations (despite what "local" anecdotal opinion is).

But wolves do have a dramatic effect on moose, elk, and the few caribou we have left.

Moose are a target, preferred species for wolves. They'll kill whatever else they encounter if they can get them, but their efforts are focussed on moose in moose habitat.

So what are the wolves eating in area that don't have moose or elk? There are plenty of wolves in Reg 2, much more than a few years ago but there are few moose or elk and zero caribou.

[358mag]

FD, I invite you to shut your computer off, come out of your mother's basement, and take a drive up to Clearwater. I will personally show you all my hidey holes that are currently void of deer because of Wolves. You can sit on your high horse making assumptions or you can actually put boots on the ground and see for youself. And before you go off about logging and all that BS as blame, my hidey holes have zero logging as they are in a very large wilderness area where wolves are actually protected. I was just up yesterday. All i can find is some pretty waterfalls.
Welcome back Dana
Can hardy wait for the reply :wink:

[358mag]

So what are the wolves eating in area that don't have moose or elk? There are plenty of wolves in Reg 2, much more than a few years ago but there are few moose or elk and zero caribou.
Maybe just Maybe the Wolves eat at Earl's

[Ohwildwon]

Maybe just Maybe the Wolves eat at Earl's

They do!

There's one along the power line between Bralorne and Kingdom Lake! ;)

[f350ps]

Welcome back Dana
Can hardy wait for the reply :wink:
Me too, but good luck on that, I can see him now googling shit like a madman! :) K

[HarryToolips]

Natives don’t typically kill deer, moose now that’s a different story
Wwwwwrrrrrrrooooonnnnggggggguuuggg....

[HarryToolips]

Wet spring this year, better luck next year. Even so I did see quite a few chickens in areas this season although I was too focused on persuing spiker muleys and white tail does with my quad to actually look for them


























--- :mrgreen:
Lol...............

[Elkhound]

I know on the sunshine coast the deer got hammered so bad from the wolves and cats that the 2 deer limit went down to one. Last few years hunting there saw lots of wolf sign getting more and more into areas

[LBM]

Wouldn't it have been great to have our own studies conducted AS stuff was actually happening?



SSS

Yes it would have that's why studies now will be flawed, problems started 30 plus years ago, that's what should be looked at .

[Bugle M In]

I think that is why ProG'66 even said he has seen wolves hit Goat's that he is aware of.
I agree wolves have their preferences as FD suggests, but in other areas where wolves have now expanded to,
there are no elk present to speak of, and moose in the area are so far down in #'s.
That's when I think wolves are no longer "selective", and deer is on the menu, as other's are stating.
BUT, let's not forget Cat's when it comes to Mule Deer

[Fisher-Dude]

Preliminary results from SE BC mule deer monitoring. 126 mule deer being monitored:

Total Mortalities = 49
Cougar = 20
Wolf = 9
Unknown = 7
Vehicles = 4
Health, poachers, 'yotes, bears, etc = 9

Wolves are responsible, in this preliminary data set, for 18% of all mortalities. These wolf-caused mortalities appear to be heavily skewed toward 4-26. At the population level, wolves are killing only 7% of the mule deer.

There have been huge variations in fawn recruitment year to year, same as they saw in Idaho, and this is what has had the most dramatic effect on populations.

On the bright side, pregnancy rates are at 91%, including yearling pregnancies. There's no lack of bucks despite what we're hearing - the sperm is there. That 91% is the same as the urban deer rate where there's no harvest of bucks.

Let's keep in mind that these are the PRELIMINARY data results ONLY. We'll await the official update from the regional bios expected later this spring.

[Wild one]

FD is this your way of saying you were wrong or possibly wrong on wolves only being accountable for only 1% of deer predation lol

If so there might be hope for you yet lol

[Fisher-Dude]

FD is this your way of saying you were wrong or possibly wrong on wolves only being accountable for only 1% of deer predation lol

If so there might be hope for you yet lol

That was the result in ID/MT.

That is what I told you. You didn't listen.

[Wild one]

That was the result in ID/MT.

That is what I told you. You didn't listen.

Go back in this thread clear as day you were claiming wolves are very low impact on deer by post the 1% result. You have made the claim wolves have little impact on deer in many other threads

Nice try at regaining face though lol

Guess you still can’t admit any possibility of being wrong. Here I thought you might be making baby steps towards it guess I was wrong lol

[Fisher-Dude]

So, let's say we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on wolf control to knock them down by 50%. That's a hard target to achieve, but let's say we devote enough resources to do it.

We might "save" 3.5% of mule deer if we do. Of course, we know that compensatory mortality always (well, in 20 of 21 studies, so let's say in 95% of cases instead of always) kills the 3.5% of mule deer we saved in the first place.

We know that socially and politically, wolf culls are a tough sell.

Is the juice worth the squeeze? Or should we look at fawn recruitment improvements instead? Would the hundreds of thousands of dollars be better spent on habitat improvements for fawns, when we know that we only have a 5% chance of saving 3.5% of mule deer with an unpopular wolf cull?

If you want to talk about a wolf cull that is targeted to improve moose and elk survival, you have my full attention, and I'll sacrifice political capital when I can see a clear and demonstrated benefit to our big ungulates.. But on mule deer, I really think we're spinning our wheels.

[Fisher-Dude]

Go back in this thread clear as day you were claiming wolves are very low impact on deer by post the 1% result. You have made the claim wolves have little impact on deer in many other threads

Nice try at regaining face though lol

Guess you still can’t admit any possibility of being wrong. Here I thought you might be making baby steps towards it guess I was wrong lol

Your infatuation with me is much stronger than your interest in mule deer apparently.

I'm flattered, but sorry, I'm just not interested in your attention.

[Wild one]

Your infatuation with me is much stronger than your interest in mule deer apparently.

I'm flattered, but sorry, I'm just not interested in your attention.

Nope your not that special

humorous yes

[Wild one]

You are forgetting in your argument against wolf control this benefits other ungulate species

[IronNoggin]

Preliminary results from SE BC mule deer monitoring. 126 mule deer being monitored:

ONE Study.
SouthEast BC.
126 Mulies.

Really? You base what you say here about the lack of wolf predation on mulies... on THAT? :shock:

Really??? :roll:

And then go into a spiel of just how tough it is to knock wolf populations back to reasonable numbers?

Seriously losing any traction you had left with any but those 126 mulies... In South East BC...

Cheers,
Nog

[Ohwildwon]

Less Wolve's = The Better.

[Fisher-Dude]

ONE Study.
SouthEast BC.
126 Mulies.

Really? You base what you say here about the lack of wolf predation on mulies... on THAT? :shock:

Really??? :roll:

And then go into a spiel of just how tough it is to knock wolf populations back to reasonable numbers?

Seriously losing any traction you had left with any but those 126 mulies... In South East BC...

Cheers,
Nog

It's a study. It's an area of interest for many people on this forum.

If you don't like it, present your own BC-based study to give us a different perspective on mule deer and mule deer predation.

Looking forward to your "contribution."

[IronNoggin]

It's a study. It's an area of interest for many people on this forum.

Nice Deflection.
Completely Anticipated.
Carry on... :roll:

Cheers,
Nog

[Bugle M In]

Less Wolve's = The Better.

True, it would makes things better, but if you want ideal, people should concentrate on getting funding established
for Habitat, in a big way.
Even without wolves, I am not sold that everything would be copacetic here in the province.

[Fisher-Dude]

True, it would makes things better, but if you want ideal, people should concentrate on getting funding established
for Habitat, in a big way.
Even without wolves, I am not sold that everything would be copacetic here in the province.

You're right.

As Hebblewhite explained, with habitat as a limiting factor, deer populations find their own equilibrium and tend to adjust to the capacity of the range. Save 100 deer by eliminating the preds, and 100 deer die of other causes.

Habitat, habitat, habitat.

[dana]

Come on FD, lets put your boots on and see the incredible untouched wilderness that is Wells Gray. Habitat habitat habitat. Full of nothing!!! Please respond or else stop talking out of your ass. The largest wilderness area in southern BC. The best mule deer genetics. I could easily see 25 mature bucks in a day of glassing in the winter. Now, nothing. nada. SFA. Why is that if all they need is Habitat Habitat Habitat? Hmm, that's right! Crickets from the class Clown. Crickets Crickets Chickets. Lets face it, you are nothing but a dog lover. Always have been. Anytime wolves are brought up, you cringe and go out of your way to redirect the thread with your ever loving so-called science. You have over played that card for way way too long. Why don't you actually research how the hunters in Idaho feel about their mule deer populations? Why don't you actually research what hunters in Wa feel about the status of mule deer in their state. You know the answer, and that is why you refuse to post it here. Well, unlike you, I actually have plenty of friends in Idaho and Wa. Guess what? They are watching the freakin wolves eat them out of house and home as well. But, please keep on insisting that wolves don't eat mule deer. Please keep showing us that you really never leave your mother's basement as you fight the good fight against resident hunters. Cause if you ever do come out of that dudgeon you live in and see some daylight, you'd be shocked to see the real world instead of the make believe one you have on your computer screen.

[Ourea]

Come on FD, lets put your boots on and see the incredible untouched wilderness that is Wells Gray. Habitat habitat habitat. Full of nothing!!! Please respond or else stop talking out of your ass. The largest wilderness area in southern BC. The best mule deer genetics. I could easily see 25 mature bucks in a day of glassing in the winter. Now, nothing. nada. SFA. Why is that if all they need is Habitat Habitat Habitat? Hmm, that's right! Crickets from the class Clown. Crickets Crickets Chickets. Lets face it, you are nothing but a dog lover. Always have been. Anytime wolves are brought up, you cringe and go out of your way to redirect the thread with your ever loving so-called science. You have over played that card for way way too long. Why don't you actually research how the hunters in Idaho feel about their mule deer populations? Why don't you actually research what hunters in Wa feel about the status of mule deer in their state. You know the answer, and that is why you refuse to post it here. Well, unlike you, I actually have plenty of friends in Idaho and Wa. Guess what? They are watching the freakin wolves eat them out of house and home as well. But, please keep on insisting that wolves don't eat mule deer. Please keep showing us that you really never leave your mother's basement as you fight the good fight against resident hunters. Cause if you ever do come out of that dudgeon you live in and see some daylight, you'd be shocked to see the real world instead of the make believe one you have on your computer screen.

Solution?

Wildlife is headed south.
What's the long term fix?
Debating on the internet?

[bownut]

I know on the sunshine coast the deer got hammered so bad from the wolves and cats that the 2 deer limit went down to one. Last few years hunting there saw lots of wolf sign getting more and more into areas

Hmm as some would say "That would be Managing to Zero"

Good on knocking back the limit. Now its time to get everyone to agree that Predators are the Joker in the Deck.

[dana]

Solution?

Wildlife is headed south.
What's the long term fix?
Debating on the internet?

long term fix? I already told you. predator management, predator management, predator management. You think you have it bad in the OK right now? You ain't seen anything yet. It gets worse, much worse. I have lived it for the last 10 years. If you guys don't get to killing some dogs fast, you guys are going to reliving my 10 year nightmare. But please, lets debate with hunters over season changes because that makes a ton of sense. Hunting season changes that won't hurt a thing but give people a more enjoyable experience. But please, lets keep on attacking resident hunters and call them names because they actually want to hunt instead of sitting on their high horses looking down their noses on everyone else. Yup, that will make a hell of a difference won't it.

[walks with deer]

last fall i had 37 buck i knew of within 5km of my house..this spring they disapered late march never came back...i wonder where they are..was not hunting that beat that herd down. now when i cut pred tracks i call the full time pro do not even try myself...why cause he has more time and is better at it.

[horshur]

So more then 16 too the wolves..I know what unknown means. As well other..some of that number can be added to wolf...indirect mortality...and this study cannot have collared fawns so how many fawn deaths directly or indirectly could be contributed to wolves? The recruitment that is so important.
I will go even further...the cougar number. Inflated due to wolves. Cougar females would kill less if they did not have wolves poaching there hard work.

[Bugle M In]

Why don't both sides of the fence here look at the "moose fact sheet" for a second and read.
From my take, both wolves and habitat seem to be the major factors. (50/50)
Basically, if you ask me, both need to be addressed.
Both require funding.
I agree with FD, that getting the wolf cull socially accepted will be next to impossible, and I doubt, due to that reason, that any mla/party will start pushing for a cull to happen.
So, in come ProG66 suggestion as what to do.
So, that being said, we can "all" get on the band wagon for funding and habitat.
Don't get me wrong, I would be on the cull wagon as well, if anyone needs my signature, but trying to prove each other wrong is getting a little ridiculous.
As for "if does are being bred", meaning, are there enough bucks around, I would say there are enough bucks to get it done, as most of the Does I saw, 80%, had fawns in November, which in one day, I counted well over 30.
Now, what is happening come Dec thru May is the issue, and which brings me back to the study on moose.
I know I am not comparing the same species here, nor the same areas, but I believe the problems exist for all our ungulate issues....50/50.

[Sitkaspruce]

Man you guys are the epitome of the hunting world, throwing insults back and forth like school yard bullies, beating your chest and arguing like my kids used to do.

It's a wonder how we will ever even get off the ground on improving wildlife in BC; whether it is pred control, improving habitat, spending money or even a asteroid passing by that will save widlife.....we are being siloed by groups who are focusing on one thing, no matter the focus. Tunnel vision is very dangerous and from sitting on the outside watching this post and a few others, we are in a lot of trouble.

So lets stop throwing insults at each, lets agree to disagree and move forward as a group that focuses on what wildlife in BC need....SUPPORT.

For Frack sakes, the wildlife in BC need all of us....or us will not have any wildlife to enjoy........

SS

[guest]

Well said SS,
then we have the new members to the forum against GBear and Wolf hunts ...... Tough times

[Ourea]

Man you guys are the epitome of the hunting world, throwing insults back and forth like school yard bullies, beating your chest and arguing like my kids used to do.

It's a wonder how we will ever even get off the ground on improving wildlife in BC; whether it is pred control, improving habitat, spending money or even a asteroid passing by that will save widlife.....we are being siloed by groups who are focusing on one thing, no matter the focus. Tunnel vision is very dangerous and from sitting on the outside watching this post and a few others, we are in a lot of trouble.

So lets stop throwing insults at each, lets agree to disagree and move forward as a group that focuses on what wildlife in BC need....SUPPORT.

For Frack sakes, the wildlife in BC need all of us....or us will not have any wildlife to enjoy........SS

And some seem to think that the fighting in the sand box will end and we will all have a Kumbya future.

[dana]

Man you guys are the epitome of the hunting world, throwing insults back and forth like school yard bullies, beating your chest and arguing like my kids used to do.

It's a wonder how we will ever even get off the ground on improving wildlife in BC; whether it is pred control, improving habitat, spending money or even a asteroid passing by that will save widlife.....we are being siloed by groups who are focusing on one thing, no matter the focus. Tunnel vision is very dangerous and from sitting on the outside watching this post and a few others, we are in a lot of trouble.

So lets stop throwing insults at each, lets agree to disagree and move forward as a group that focuses on what wildlife in BC need....SUPPORT.

For Frack sakes, the wildlife in BC need all of us....or us will not have any wildlife to enjoy........

SS

SS couldn't agree more. Hunters need to stop agrueing about silly things like mule deer bag limits and restrictions and start actually fighting the fight of their lives, to save wildlife and our hunting heritage. When you actually step away from this thing that is HBC, there is actually a great big world out there worth fighting for.

[Ourea]

SS couldn't agree more. Hunters need to stop agrueing about silly things like mule deer bag limits and restrictions and start actually fighting the fight of their lives, to save wildlife and our hunting heritage. When you actually step away from this thing that is HBC, there is actually a great big world out there worth fighting for.

Focus is funding dana.
$$$ = results.
$$$ = attention

[LBM]

It's a study. It's an area of interest for many people on this forum.

If you don't like it, present your own BC-based study to give us a different perspective on mule deer and mule deer predation.

Looking forward to your "contribution."

Sure its a study but in a couple MUs, every one is different. Not sure if it was mentioned but many of the town deer that were live trapped and
moved were dropped in 4-26 right in the middle of the area were they were having wolf issues. They don't run from dogs or people in town so
if any of them were the ones killed by the predators the study is kind of flawed.

[horshur]

Man you guys are the epitome of the hunting world, throwing insults back and forth like school yard bullies, beating your chest and arguing like my kids used to do.

It's a wonder how we will ever even get off the ground on improving wildlife in BC; whether it is pred control, improving habitat, spending money or even a asteroid passing by that will save widlife.....we are being siloed by groups who are focusing on one thing, no matter the focus. Tunnel vision is very dangerous and from sitting on the outside watching this post and a few others, we are in a lot of trouble.

So lets stop throwing insults at each, lets agree to disagree and move forward as a group that focuses on what wildlife in BC need....SUPPORT.

For Frack sakes, the wildlife in BC need all of us....or us will not have any wildlife to enjoy........

SS
You work in the resource sector...so explain how you go about habitat. Here local club raised moneys for elk through elk foundation. Transplants to augment a small herd. MOE shut it down. Would just be feeding wolves. So group looked at moose enhancement. Wells Grey park hasn't burned since 1926. Parks shut it down. Money went south of the border. Group dissolved. I asked about tools the managers have...they have no tools.
Habitat...how long a process for approvals given all stakeholders? Best case even.
What the hell is support?it is like the word faith..have faith..support..don't argue...what the heck does it mean?
It is a beetles mantra?
Really what are you saying? Or are you saying someone who doesn't have the same view of things might see this and we will look like long arm guys...knuckledraggers

[horshur]

Sure its a study but in a couple MUs, every one is different. Not sure if it was mentioned but many of the town deer that were live trapped and
moved were dropped in 4-26 right in the middle of the area were they were having wolf issues. They don't run from dogs or people in town so
if any of them were the ones killed by the predators the study is kind of flawed.
are you kidding?

[dana]

Focus is funding dana.
$$$ = results.
$$$ = attention

Let me tell you a story. IIRC was around 98/99 the local chapter of the RMEF raised funds to transplant elk from Jasper to help the struggling little herd in the Tum Tum. All money was from public. No government funds were needed. Everything was proceeding nicely and the elk were captured, penned, giving the proper medical bill of health and were about to be loaded into trucks headed for the Tum. Then some government worker put the breaks on. Nope, they would not allow it. Red tape. The elk were still loaded onto trucks but went elsewhere. The local money raised was still spent, just not on our local herd. The unofficial reasoning was that they thought it would just be a feeding program for the wolves. Sooo, a year goes by and the locals are pissed with all the money they raised going elsewhere. So a new project is conceived. Lets do something local. Lets do some habitat enhancement. Not much could be done elk related but the Rmef said we aren't just about elk, we support all animals. So a plan to do a prescribed burn on Green Mountain in Wells Gray to help moose and mule deer became the local focus. All the money needed was raised privately. No government money was requested. There were professional wildfire volunteers, there was industry giving equipent and expertise, there were consultations with all stakeholders. Everyone, including local residents and even Green orgs were for it. And then, some government worker put the breaks on it. Couldn't happen. Why? Because they had come up with a similiar plan years previous using HCTF money and were turned down. So if they couldn't do it, no one can. Funding was there. All faded away and the local chapter of the Rmef ceased.