Proposed Hunting Reg Changes for 2018 - 2020

[russm86]

See link below for the proposed changes to the 2018 - 2020 BC Hunting Regs. Not sure the Mule deer bag limit change will help as much as they think in Region 3 as we would still end up with 90% of the lower mainlanders coming here to hunt deer, would just be a few less from region 8 and 5 looking for their seconds.

https://apps.nrs.gov.bc.ca/ahte/hunting

[guest]

Thanks for posting Russm, some interesting purposals for sure in there.

[Whonnock Boy]

Your nimby attitude does nothing for the hunting community. Where do you suggest I hunt in OUR Province, if not Region 3?


Not sure the Mule deer bag limit change will help as much as they think in Region 3 as we would still end up with 90% of the lower mainlanders coming here to hunt deer, would just be a few less from region 8 and 5 looking for their seconds.

https://apps.nrs.gov.bc.ca/ahte/hunting

[Ride Red]

See link below for the proposed changes to the 2018 - 2020 BC Hunting Regs. Not sure the Mule deer bag limit change will help as much as they think in Region 3 as we would still end up with 90% of the lower mainlanders coming here to hunt deer, would just be a few less from region 8 and 5 looking for their seconds.

https://apps.nrs.gov.bc.ca/ahte/hunting

So lower mainlanders aren't allowed to hunt in your area now?

[kilometers]

Thanks for the link. Thank god. Looks like we will be keeping the moose bow only seasons in region 6 and a change to the rifle season.
was worried we would lose the bow seasons !Just made my day

[Bugle M In]

Jesse is "GoatGuy"...right?
Anyways...well said.

[Chrispryn]

Some interesting changes. Thanks for the link.

[horshur]

Your nimby attitude does nothing for the hunting community. Where do you suggest I hunt in OUR Province, if not Region 3?
Lots of opportunities in lower wasteland eh.

[two-feet]

Boy, they snuck in the moose changes for skeena south right at the bottom

[mad_mallard]

Nothing like opening a TURKEY season on southern Van Isle ��

[LBM]

So are any of these proposals science based.

[2chodi]

Don't forget to comment on the proposals you like as well as the ones you don't like. Government does not get enough positive feedback from hunters.

Also, this likely is not the full complement of proposals, so keep checking back.

[ROY-alty33]

Certain stakeholders seem to carry more weight than others.

[ElectricDyck]

Sounds like less moose harvest for canadians and mule deer arent doing well...

[ElectricDyck]

Oh yeah, thanks for posting..interesting read..i like that the excluding antlers as sign of sex..too many debates about that rule over the years..make the rules simple and clear..shouldnt be open to interprutation..

Should change the black bear to clearly state no sign of sex needed as well..

[Ohwildwon]

Nothing like opening a TURKEY season on southern Van Isle 🤔

I know, clicked on the link and a picture of the Parliament Building came up! :mrgreen:

[Ohwildwon]

So that's a big change in bag limit for interior mulies!

The rationale seems fair enough?

If we want a quick turn around in pop, major road deactivation and restriction needs to take place as well..

[New Bow Hunter]

Nothing like opening a TURKEY season on southern Van Isle ��

You should visit the South Island especially around the Parliament Buildings for turkeys, but no shooting

[walks with deer]

umm i smell a trade off for gbear closures..and these new rules ar all restrictive for my targets....

[howa1500]

Wow... When will we focus on habitat.

[Big Lew]

I don't like decreasing my hunting opportunities any more than most other hunters...
but none of us should be surprised. Even politicians relatively uneducated in our game
populations, needs, and predatory pressures can see there's a serious problem which
is only being made worse by the status quo. Much of the herbivore species numbers just
aren't sustainable the way we going. I started hunting in 1960, and since then and up to
about 20 years ago I didn't notice the serious decline in numbers like there is now.
Of course there are contributing factors besides hunting pressure such as reduced habitat,
which includes good wintering areas, increased wolf populations feeding on more vulnerable
game as a result of massive clear-cut logging, and in both elk and mule deer, disease.
We hunters have not only taken advantage of atv's, but have many more modern tools to assist
us such as range finders, gps, more reliable and sophisticated scopes, guns and ammo more
consistently allowing for much longer shots, trail cams, all manner of scent attractants, camo
everything, and hand held 2-way radios. I most certainly don't wish it to happen, but I don't
think we're that far away from LEH drawing on almost all herbivore hunts. Hopefully I'm wrong,
and things improve, but I don't think so....just my 2 cents worth.

[Fisher-Dude]

We hunters have not only taken advantage of atv's, but have many more modern tools to assist
us such as range finders, gps, more reliable and sophisticated scopes, guns and ammo more
consistently allowing for much longer shots, trail cams, all manner of scent attractants, camo
everything, and hand held 2-way radios. I most certainly don't wish it to happen, but I don't
think we're that far away from LEH drawing on almost all herbivore hunts. Hopefully I'm wrong,
and things improve, but I don't think so....just my 2 cents worth.


If hunters had gained an advantage with all these gizmos, then days per kill would be going down.

That's not what is happening across any of our ungulate species. Most days per kill stats have stayed the same or trended upward instead.

[Whonnock Boy]

I won't quote him because he's still not talking to me (lol) , but I wonder what the correlation is between "gizmos" coming onto the market year over year, versus wildlife populations declining year over year, versus days per kill year over year.

[Big Lew]

Regardless as to how anyone spins it, there just isn't the numbers there used to be...that's obvious.
If hunter success is remaining stable, or even a bit less, that would indicate these 'gizmos' do make
a difference compared to hunting methods and tools of long past years.

[Whonnock Boy]

I agree. "Gizmo's" increase success, ungulate numbers have declined, days per kill remain constant or increase.


Regardless as to how anyone spins it, there just isn't the numbers there used to be...that's obvious.
If hunter success is remaining stable, or even a bit less, that would indicate these 'gizmos' do make
a difference compared to hunting methods and tools of long past years.

[Bugle M In]

Nope....
Yes, there are more Gizmo's and some of the ways "some atv" users have used their toys have turned some good
hunting spots "if you hiked it", into just your typical areas...
But, hunter success rate would be shown as higher if these toys "paid off" to equaling more success.
But it doesn't.
Also, some hunters over the years have chosen ...by their own choice, like me...to be selective.
So yes, game numbers are down, and some hunters have more toys, but other hunters have also decided
to hold back on pulling the pin.
Either way....success rate is the same....you can't spin it any other way!?
It's just that there are different reasons then say in the 70's where most hunters took whatever walked by.
I like to think that a lot of us hunters have come a long way since then....maybe i'm wrong? on that point?

[shortrange]

QCI bear LEH is a good idea.

Mayne Island hunting plus the expanded fallow deer is a combination too good to be true. The hippies on Mayne will never let it happen. :(

[twoSevenO]

Can someone explain to me how making the 8-3 sheep draw from 3/4 curl to any ram would lower the hunting pressure, as they claim?

[358mag]

Wow... When will we focus on habitat.
Sad to say , but when the last deer on the mountain is shoot that when the sh*t will hit the fan . Then the coffee shop talk will be , jezzz what happened to all the deer ?
Until that time its all about who's going to shoot "that " deer .
Merry Christmas + a Happy New Year .

[358mag]

Can someone explain to me how making the 8-3 sheep draw from 3/4 curl to any ram would lower the hunting pressure, as they claim?

8-03 is LEH , not going to lower hunting pressure as same amount of tags will be Issued . It more about hunter success .
Think all region 8 LEH is for any ram IIRC .

[Caribou_lou]

Can someone explain to me how making the 8-3 sheep draw from 3/4 curl to any ram would lower the hunting pressure, as they claim?

Im assuming its LEH so there is limited pressure already. It would only increase annual harvests. Which must not be even close to being met if its proposed for any ram

[Caribou_lou]

QCI bear LEH is a good idea.



Because theres a shortage?... Didnt think so

[russm86]

Your nimby attitude does nothing for the hunting community. Where do you suggest I hunt in OUR Province, if not Region 3?

I wasn't saying anyone was unwelcome here, simply stating I don't think it will have anywhere near the impact they think in this region because of the large amount of lower mainlanders (where blacktails don't count towards the 1 bag limit) hunting here so they may want to consider other options. Perhaps they should include all mainland regions in the bag limit so some lower mainlanders will still fill tags locally instead of all coming here, or maybe remove the youth and bow only seasons like they did in the okanagan, especially the early youth any buck which is just a complete blood bath. Anyways, just to be the devils advocate, why should locals have to suffer because of the pressure from out of area/region hunting? We didn't force you to live there and we all already pay for your damn bridges... ;)

[russm86]

So that's a big change in bag limit for interior mulies!

The rationale seems fair enough?

If we want a quick turn around in pop, major road deactivation and restriction needs to take place as well..

Already happened. They have banned ORV use entirely in 4 of the MUs and rumor has it that it had nothing to do with the fires, they have been wanting this a long time and the fires just gave them an excuse, so it is unlikely that they will reopen those areas and they may even add to the list of closures.

[twoSevenO]

8-03 is LEH , not going to lower hunting pressure as same amount of tags will be Issued . It more about hunter success .
Think all region 8 LEH is for any ram IIRC .

In the proposal it specifically states:

"reduce disturbance by reducing overall hunter numbers"

[Fisher-Dude]

I wasn't saying anyone was unwelcome here, simply stating I don't think it will have anywhere near the impact they think in this region because of the large amount of lower mainlanders (where blacktails don't count towards the 1 bag limit) hunting here so they may want to consider other options. Perhaps they should include all mainland regions in the bag limit so some lower mainlanders will still fill tags locally instead of all coming here, or maybe remove the youth and bow only seasons like they did in the okanagan, especially the early youth any buck which is just a complete blood bath. Anyways, just to be the devils advocate, why should locals have to suffer because of the pressure from out of area/region hunting? We didn't force you to live there and we all already pay for your damn bridges... ;)

What percentage of deer harvest is achieved in that early youth "bloodbath?"

You seem dead set against any opportunity that isn't your style of hunting.

[Ohwildwon]

I wasn't saying anyone was unwelcome here, simply stating I don't think it will have anywhere near the impact they think in this region because of the large amount of lower mainlanders (where blacktails don't count towards the 1 bag limit) hunting here so they may want to consider other options. Perhaps they should include all mainland regions in the bag limit so some lower mainlanders will still fill tags locally instead of all coming here, or maybe remove the youth and bow only seasons like they did in the okanagan, especially the early youth any buck which is just a complete blood bath. Anyways, just to be the devils advocate, why should locals have to suffer because of the pressure from out of area/region hunting? We didn't force you to live there and we all already pay for your damn bridges... ;)

Ha Ha, you obviously have no idea what it’s like trying to hunt black tails on the coast...

Jim Shockey even says it’s one of the hardest big game animals to hunt on the planet..

Hence we head to where it’s possible...

[Caribou_lou]

In the proposal it specifically states:

"reduce disturbance by reducing overall hunter numbers"

Possibly going for an over harvest to reduce LEH permits in following years?

[steel_ram]

Anyways, just to be the devils advocate, why should locals have to suffer because of the pressure from out of area/region hunting? We didn't force you to live there and we all already pay for your damn bridges... ;)

Non local hunters have more "hunter days" per animal harvest, plus they move some money around the province. Perhaps next time you need to go to a big hospital, or hydro has to fix the lines to a far spaced country home at no extra cost to you, you might appreciate that we're all in this together, and your the one getting the good deal.

[257stew]

I like the LEH hunt on QCI for black bear, also i hope Skeena south goes to the longer fork bull season vs. the short 3 day opening. What a gong show those 3 days will be. Might have a hard time finding a fork bull but at least a guy can get out a bit more.

[Fisher-Dude]

I wasn't saying anyone was unwelcome here, simply stating I don't think it will have anywhere near the impact they think in this region because of the large amount of lower mainlanders (where blacktails don't count towards the 1 bag limit) hunting here so they may want to consider other options. Perhaps they should include all mainland regions in the bag limit so some lower mainlanders will still fill tags locally instead of all coming here, or maybe remove the youth and bow only seasons like they did in the okanagan, especially the early youth any buck which is just a complete blood bath. Anyways, just to be the devils advocate, why should locals have to suffer because of the pressure from out of area/region hunting? We didn't force you to live there and we all already pay for your damn bridges... ;)


Hope you never go salmon fishing.

[4blade]

Surprised nothing about shutting down whitetail does in areas of region 4

[Farmer]

In the proposal it specifically states:

"reduce disturbance by reducing overall hunter numbers"

Maybe if they want to reduce disturbance they should clamp down on the guide chasing them around with aircraft so LEH holders can't find them

Probably they are just appeasing the GO so that the draw holders will shoot smaller rams and the older ones might still be available for his clients.

[Caribou_lou]

I like the LEH hunt on QCI for black bear, also i hope Skeena south goes to the longer fork bull season vs. the short 3 day opening. What a gong show those 3 days will be. Might have a hard time finding a fork bull but at least a guy can get out a bit more.

If you want to find bulls left in the bush go to horn restriction

[Hunter gatherer]

Hopefully now all the lower mainlanders will see that voting NDP wasn't such a good idea JK

[twoSevenO]

Maybe if they want to reduce disturbance they should clamp down on the guide chasing them around with aircraft so LEH holders can't find them

Probably they are just appeasing the GO so that the draw holders will shoot smaller rams and the older ones might still be available for his clients.

Is that seriously a thing?

[khoffnbud]

Can someone explain to me how making the 8-3 sheep draw from 3/4 curl to any ram would lower the hunting pressure, as they claim?

the way I interpret this, going from 5, 1 week seasons to 1, 4 week season and combining A and B zones into 1, wouldn't this reduce total tags by over 50%

[Andrewh]

Mayne Island hunting plus the expanded fallow deer is a combination too good to be true. The hippies on Mayne will never let it happen. :(

There is a Fallow deer management committee and they are trying to figure out a way to 'eliminate' the deer from the island... pretty sure the islanders would be happy about the season but land access might be another issue.

[.300WSMImpact!]

where is the removal of the any buck seasons or shortening seasons, man its time we move forward here

[Whonnock Boy]

We just had the GBear hunt removed based on emotion. No point in asking for more.


where is the removal of the any buck seasons or shortening seasons, man its time we move forward here

[.300WSMImpact!]

We just had the GBear hunt removed based on emotion. No point in asking for more.

emotion is keeping all the seasons actually

[Whonnock Boy]

Ok, what's your issue? Do you want to see more 4 points? Do you want to see more bucks? Do you want to see more deer? Let's dissect this.


emotion is keeping all the seasons actually

[HighCountryBC]

Ok, what's your issue? Do you want to see more 4 points? Do you want to see more bucks? Do you want to see more deer? Let's dissect this.

His issue is he can't find any "big bucks" and he thinks that by restricting others it will make it easier for him to kill a 160 class "giant"..

[Squamch]

There is a Fallow deer management committee and they are trying to figure out a way to 'eliminate' the deer from the island... pretty sure the islanders would be happy about the season but land access might be another issue.

There's a few who are welcoming, you've always been able to get permits to hunt and shoot on the island, we had one 15 ish years ago.

[HarryToolips]

So that's a big change in bag limit for interior mulies!

The rationale seems fair enough?

If we want a quick turn around in pop, major road deactivation and restriction needs to take place as well..
This is correct......

[HarryToolips]

Surprised nothing about shutting down whitetail does in areas of region 4
Why, they already reduced the bag limit to 1 doe, and WT can bounce back very quickly....hunting won't affect them as much as habitat, winter, and preds will...

[Ryo]

So that's a big change in bag limit for interior mulies!

The rationale seems fair enough?

If we want a quick turn around in pop, major road deactivation and restriction needs to take place as well..

Yes, addressing the problem of habitat, rather than building around web peripheral policy around it would certainly be preferable.

And yes, the rationale for regional bag limit reduction does seems fair enough, given that habitat remains off-the-table with past and present government. A concern of mine with the the bag limit reduction is that it will undermine the predictability of the antlerless LEH, especially in region 3 and 8. If those LEH tags turn into security tags in case a buck never shows, than the projected positive effect on buck/doe ratios is dampened.

[russm86]

Non local hunters have more "hunter days" per animal harvest, plus they move some money around the province. Perhaps next time you need to go to a big hospital, or hydro has to fix the lines to a far spaced country home at no extra cost to you, you might appreciate that we're all in this together, and your the one getting the good deal.

I work with BC Hydro on a nearly daily basis and do pole line work, believe me rural properties don't get anything cheap/free anymore. Repairs may or may not be free depending on where the damage occurred (primary vs secondary, private property vs mainline at highway) but either way, you end up paying for it all up front anyways as you have to pay for the BC Hydro design work, poles, and transformers in most cases. Poles are around $5000 per pole, some of the transformers around $10,000... Even if you get lucky and they have existing lines nearby so they just have to give a drop at the property line for the basic $1000 service fee, you still pay for it all in the end with your hydro rates as most rural properties pay substantially higher rates than in the city...

Anyways, must be the off season, everyone is cranky and taking everything so seriously, not getting the whole tongue in cheek hence the ;) (wink wink)...

[b.ashforth]

I am a fairly new hunter and I've been trying to grow my knowledge about wild game populations and the factors that have the biggest impact on their existence.

This is going to be a very broad question but it would be interesting to get the opinions of the more experienced/knowledgeable hunters.

What major concerns do you have with the current regulations? and what changes do you think would benefit the wildlife the most?

If this is high jacking the thread let me know and I will delete my post and start a new one!!

PS: Does anyone recommend any good hunting books? Trying to grow my knowledge about habitat and conservation.

BA

[Fisher-Dude]

Surprised nothing about shutting down whitetail does in areas of region 4

That's right up there with shutting down the grizzly hunt. You're proposing that we abandon science and resort to emotional game management. Is that what you want?

[Wild one]

Have no issue with the changes I have knowledge on

really nothing drastic overall for change

[Bugle M In]

Have no issue with the changes I have knowledge on

really nothing drastic overall for change

I would say the same....I don't hunt the whole province, so I also don't have the knowledge of each change that
I looked at.
If Mulies went to 1, I am okay with it, but that is only because I would never take more then 1 to begin with.
(I generally pass up on them anyways, even if legal), but I am sure some will be upset with it, as they may harvest
more then 1 a year typically, so for them it will suck.
And until they have all the regions open at the same time, for the same length of time, it might actually reduce some of the traffic some regions like 3 sees when 5 is closed, cause some folks have "tagged out already"??

[Wild one]

I would say the same....I don't hunt the whole province, so I also don't have the knowledge of each change that
I looked at.
If Mulies went to 1, I am okay with it, but that is only because I would never take more then 1 to begin with.
(I generally pass up on them anyways, even if legal), but I am sure some will be upset with it, as they may harvest
more then 1 a year typically, so for them it will suck.
And until they have all the regions open at the same time, for the same length of time, it might actually reduce some of the traffic some regions like 3 sees when 5 is closed, cause some folks have "tagged out already"??


Big supporter of a 1 mule deer a year. It’s not going to do much for overall population but should increase buck% and increase the % of mature bucks.

Personally if it does the above I would say doing away of 4pt for completely buck only and keeping a 1 mule deer limit would be a plausible option. This to me would do wonders for spreading hunting pressure

But many will not see how this can create a positive future for hunting opportunity and quality of the hunt.

[kootenaycarver]

The totally unregulated hunting by one segment of our population, has a very big impact on the wildlife in some areas. would be nice to see laws/regulations applicable to all users.

[Ourea]

I'm in favor of making more MD.
Arguing over regs will not achieve that goal.

[Caribou_lou]

I'm in favor of making more MD.
Arguing over regs will not achieve that goal.

Im in favour of making more Mule Deer. Not interested in losing hunter opportunity. Its a trend that seems to be happening too often these days. Shortening any buck seasons and having regs in each region coordinate is a start. Just my opinion.

[Fisher-Dude]

Im in favour of making more Mule Deer. Not interested in losing hunter opportunity. Its a trend that seems to be happening too often these days. Shortening any buck seasons and having regs in each region coordinate is a start. Just my opinion.

Season used to be any buck for 3 months of the year with twice the number of hunters, and we had lots of mule deer.

You think shortening an already short any buck season now is going to bring mule deer numbers up? You'd be wrong.

[325]

Season used to be any buck for 3 months of the year with twice the number of hunters, and we had lots of mule deer.

You think shortening an any buck season is going to bring mule deer numbers up? You'd be wrong.

I agree. In our area, mule deer are nearly absent. Does and bucks both. Used to be many around, but it's a rarity to see any now. The decline has nothing to do with human hunting, and probably little to do with habitat, as that hasn't changed much in the last few years. What has changed is the number of large predators. Bears, cats and wolves are everywhere. I mostly see predator tracks in the snow these days. Ungulates? Not so much.

[Caribou_lou]

Season used to be any buck for 3 months of the year with twice the number of hunters, and we had lots of mule deer.

You think shortening an already short any buck season now is going to bring mule deer numbers up? You'd be wrong.

So why go to 1 Muley buck? And I wouldn't say a month for any buck isnt short by anymeans

[brownmancheng]

so because you don't harvest more than one it is ok to reduce everyone else's opportunity? my head is starting to spin with this merry go round

[Fisher-Dude]

So why go to 1 Muley buck? And I wouldn't say a month for any buck isnt short by anymeans

The 1 mule deer buck is purely a social management item.

Game managers admit it is to spread out hunters and stop "border hoppers."

It has little to do with any shortness of sperm supply. We have loads of it for the number of does out there.

Again, we look back to 3 months of any buck, twice the number of hunters, and high populations of mule deer. We've restricted the season since then and watched mule deer decline. How will more restrictions increase mule deer?

[Fisher-Dude]

I agree. In our area, mule deer are nearly absent. Does and bucks both. Used to be many around, but it's a rarity to see any now. The decline has nothing to do with human hunting, and probably little to do with habitat, as that hasn't changed much in the last few years. What has changed is the number of large predators. Bears, cats and wolves are everywhere. I mostly see predator tracks in the snow these days. Ungulates? Not so much.

Yup. And your area has been on 4 point bucks all season in 13 of the last 15 years, yet your mule deer are rare and getting rarer.

Maybe someone will suggest 5 point mule deer, since 4 point doesn't seem to be working. :-?

[Bugle M In]

Big supporter of a 1 mule deer a year. It’s not going to do much for overall population but should increase buck% and increase the % of mature bucks.

Personally if it does the above I would say doing away of 4pt for completely buck only and keeping a 1 mule deer limit would be a plausible option. This to me would do wonders for spreading hunting pressure

But many will not see how this can create a positive future for hunting opportunity and quality of the hunt.

I really don't like the point restriction when it comes to management.
Seen it introduced in the mid/late 90's for elk in the EK, and we are worse off now...IMO.
As far as I am concerned, let the folks that want a meat buck/doe, have their chance.
Me, I will continue to pursue a larger, older, mature buck before I turn him into sausage and burger.
Either way, both types make their own choices, and in the end, we will all be better off for it, deer #'s as well.
Also, it might spread out the "traffic", as many would have choices to hunt whenever, wherever, yet have to consider
which way they would like to harvest.

[LBM]

The 1 mule deer buck is purely a social management item.

Game managers admit it is to spread out hunters and stop "border hoppers."

It has little to do with any shortness of sperm supply. We have loads of it for the number of does out there.

Again, we look back to 3 months of any buck, twice the number of hunters, and high populations of mule deer. We've restricted the season since then and watched mule deer decline. How will more restrictions increase mule deer?

Again, the decline started when there was twice as many hunters.

[Bugle M In]

Again, the decline started when there was twice as many hunters.

Twice as many hunters was a "long time ago" now (since the 70's?...that's like 40+ years ago)
So, what is the problem now, if it was because there were "too many hunters" back then???

[cyalatte]

So that's a big change in bag limit for interior mulies!

The rationale seems fair enough?

If we want a quick turn around in pop, major road deactivation and restriction needs to take place as well..

I would have to agree with this statement...too much access already with ATV's going places they shouldn't be, let alone roads leading into sensitive areas. No control over who are using these roads...all year long.

[Wild one]

The 1 mule deer buck is purely a social management item.

Game managers admit it is to spread out hunters and stop "border hoppers."

It has little to do with any shortness of sperm supply. We have loads of it for the number of does out there.

Again, we look back to 3 months of any buck, twice the number of hunters, and high populations of mule deer. We've restricted the season since then and watched mule deer decline. How will more restrictions increase mule deer?


What’s wrong with spreading pressure?

What’s wrong with a higher buck vs doe ratio?

Will it do wonders to increase overall mule deer numbers no. Can it improve hunter success rate if buck numbers increase Yes. Will it help spread pressure Yes. Will it make some consider if the buck in front of them is worth using there tag on over shoot and jump regions hoping for a bigger buck yes

Is this change about increasing overall mule deer population nope

3 mule deer 3 month season did not work that great or it would still be in place. BC is also not the same habit/access/technology wise and towns/cities have expanded as well. The BC you speak of then is not the same as it is today

I grew up hunting these great days you speak of and truth is they were nothing to rave about. My father that hunted them longer then I did does not think those days were that great either

Only nice thing we agree on is back then pressure was spread out

[Ferenc]

I would have to agree with this statement...too much access already with ATV's going places they shouldn't be, let alone roads leading into sensitive areas. No control over who are using these roads...all year long.

The wolves sure like using them too .... been hunting Boston Bar before the early 1980’s the roads have always been there .... the amount of wolves now in the East Anderson drainage is unreal... any mule deer track we came across had wolf tracks on it.... pretty unreal to see this being that I’ve hunted this area forever.

[Fisher-Dude]

Again, the decline started when there was twice as many hunters.

Why didn't it stop declining when hunter numbers fell from 174,000 to 84,000?

[Fisher-Dude]

What’s wrong with spreading pressure?

What’s wrong with a higher buck vs doe ratio?



Spreading hunters out is a social issue, nothing to do with wildlife management.

High buck to doe ratios result in a severe drop in herd productivity and fewer deer as an end result.

Is that what you want to manage for?

[blacklab]

Why didn't it stop declining when hunter numbers fell from 174,000 to 84,000?
You seem to have all the numbers at your finger tips. Can you tell me the number of deer licences sold when there were a 174000 thousand hunters compared to today.
I think we have almost as many big game hunters as we ever did, but we lost somewhere around 30,000 bird hunters with the gun registry and steel shot regs.

[horshur]

Spreading hunters out is a social issue, nothing to do with wildlife management.

High buck to doe ratios result in a severe drop in herd productivity and fewer deer as an end result.

Is that what you want to manage for?
There won't be high buck doe ratios..never has and won't unless leh managed trophy hunt.

[Wild one]

Spreading hunters out is a social issue, nothing to do with wildlife management.

High buck to doe ratios result in a severe drop in herd productivity and fewer deer as an end result.

Is that what you want to manage for?


You know just as well as I do the increase % in bucks from this would not be that big of a increase

You are also smart enough to know many places successfully run higher buck ratios then BC without hurting populations

If I remember right you were one saying most don’t take more than 1 mule deer a year anyway so this should have little to no effect population wise.

If buck ratios start getting high ditching 4pt for any buck keep 1 deer limit


Really just say it you don’t like it because it does not fit your agenda

[Fisher-Dude]

There won't be high buck doe ratios..never has and won't unless leh managed trophy hunt.

One of the hardest hunted, most roaded MUs in region 8 was just surveyed.

Final post-hunt ratio: 27:100, way above management targets, and with lots of class IV bucks.

So much for Negative Nelly.

[Fisher-Dude]

You know just as well as I do the increase % in bucks from this would not be that big of a increase

You are also smart enough to know many places successfully run higher buck ratios then BC without hurting populations

If I remember right you were one saying most don’t take more than 1 mule deer a year anyway so this should have little to no effect population wise.

If buck ratios start getting high ditching 4pt for any buck keep 1 deer limit


Really just say it you don’t like it because it does not fit your agenda

Watch the Hebblewhite presentation.

He said that when the buck to doe ratios increase, the productivity of the herd drops.

I'm smart enough to know that mule deer experts know more about what happens than people on forums with regulations agendas.

[horshur]

One of the hardest hunted, most roaded MUs in region 8 was just surveyed.

Final post-hunt ratio: 27:100, way above management targets, and with lots of class IV bucks.

So much for Negative Nelly.
Private land bucks

[Wild one]

Watch the Hebblewhite presentation.

He said that when the buck to doe ratios increase, the productivity of the herd drops.

I'm smart enough to know that mule deer experts know more about what happens than people on forums with regulations agendas.

At what % does this occur?

I am betting we are at no risk of reaching it either

[Fisher-Dude]

Private land bucks

Incorrect. None were on private land, in fact, there's no private land around there at all.

[Fisher-Dude]

At what % does this occur?

I am betting we are at no risk of reaching it either

Surplus bucks over sperm supply minimums (which occurs at about 8 - 10:100 depending on terrain and densities) begin to push productivity down.

Think about it - a 200 lb buck will displace four 50 lb fawns on winter range. You won't grow a population by letting the buck survive the winter when the 4 fawns die.

[horshur]

Incorrect. None were on private land, in fact, there's no private land around there at all.
Why is the area a secret fish?

[Wild one]

Surplus bucks over sperm supply minimums (which occurs at about 8 - 10:100 depending on terrain and densities) begin to push productivity down.

Think about it - a 200 lb buck will displace four 50 lb fawns on winter range. You won't grow a population by letting the buck survive the winter when the 4 fawns die.

If your winter ranges are at max carring capacity I could understand how 1 buck is worth less then 4 fawns. Does BC hold that kind of deer population most areas no we are at lower numbers then the habitat has proven capable of holding in the past

Personally not going to get into the % without doing reasearch beyond one experts opinion but it does not add up to many of North America’s management plans.

[horshur]

Is it a byproduct of high doe harvest..are you talking whitetail?

[Ourea]

Habitat

Habitat

[Wild one]

Is it a byproduct of high doe harvest..are you talking whitetail?

Mule deer wise


If it was WT he was talking I would already be calling BS. Mule deer I will admit I could improve my knowledge

[Wild one]

Habitat

Habitat

All support it all agree big factor

problems great long term but nothing has even started

[horshur]

Mule deer wise


If it was WT he was talking I would already be calling BS. Mule deer I will admit I could improve my knowledge
I am all ears how this is possible. Hope fisher enlighten us. Why are there so few does or so many bucks..

[Fisher-Dude]

I am all ears how this is possible. Hope fisher enlighten us. Why are there so few does or so many bucks..

Mule deer.

And it's 100% because of good habitat.

[blackbart]

I have not read the whole thread, but did look at the proposed changes. Region 4-22 bighorn change proposed from GOS to LEH had the local guide outfitter on the survey flight. I can't help but develop a conspiracy theory on that one!!!

[.300WSMImpact!]

Why is the area a secret fish?

its not secret its fake, its not true its "fake news" much like most that comes off his keyboard

[.300WSMImpact!]

Habitat

Habitat

less roads and less pressure less season would sure help

[horshur]

[QUOTE=Fisher-Dude;1964938]Mule deer.

And it's 100% because of good habitat.[/QUOTE
it the burn...basically a park . And good habitat produces highbuck to doe ratios..which are unproductive ? Not following.

[Fisher-Dude]

If your winter ranges are at max carring capacity I could understand how 1 buck is worth less then 4 fawns. Does BC hold that kind of deer population most areas no we are at lower numbers then the habitat has proven capable of holding in the past

Personally not going to get into the % without doing reasearch beyond one experts opinion but it does not add up to many of North America’s management plans.

Where mule deer are declining, we have shit habitat.

Carrying capacity has cratered over many mule deer areas of BC.

Example - the East Kootenay Trench gets 3,000 ha a year of habitat work on winter range, but it grows in at 11,000 ha per year. Result - declining mule deer populations. Has nothing to do with hunting or hunting regulations - it has been 4 point and no doe harvest for a long time save a 2 year trial of any buck, yet mule deer are still disappearing.

We used to be able to take 3500 - 4700 mule deer a year, every year, out of region 4. Now we kill between 500 and 750 a year and people are still chasing hunting regulations around thinking that will make a difference. Stop and think about that for a minute.

[Fisher-Dude]

less roads and less pressure less season would sure help

Help what? Get rid of hunters? Sure won't help mule deer.

[Fisher-Dude]

it the burn...basically a park . And good habitat produces highbuck to doe ratios..which are unproductive ? Not following.

If habitat is good, fawn survival increases. That allows us to support higher buck:doe ratios without impacting fawn survival.

Starting to clue in yet?

[Ourea]

its not secret its fake, its not true its "fake news" much like most that comes off his keyboard

Reg 8 is still supporting some decent MD numbers and a bit of age.
Older burns are seeing a tank but newer burns a bump.
Compared to regions like the WK, OK region is pretty good.

The glory years in the OK are a while back (06-11) but we do not have the implosion like the the WK

[limit time]

I wasn't saying anyone was unwelcome here, simply stating I don't think it will have anywhere near the impact they think in this region because of the large amount of lower mainlanders (where blacktails don't count towards the 1 bag limit) hunting here so they may want to consider other options. Perhaps they should include all mainland regions in the bag limit so some lower mainlanders will still fill tags locally instead of all coming here, or maybe remove the youth and bow only seasons like they did in the okanagan, especially the early youth any buck which is just a complete blood bath. Anyways, just to be the devils advocate, why should locals have to suffer because of the pressure from out of area/region hunting? We didn't force you to live there and we all already pay for your damn bridges... ;)
Because you don’t own region three... you greedy ass. No one forced me to live here... next year I will hunt reg3 because of you 👌🏻

[limit time]

Ok, what's your issue? Do you want to see more 4 points? Do you want to see more bucks? Do you want to see more deer? Let's dissect this.
I hunt for meat not antlers.... all the people I hunt with, hunt for meat....Not antlers.... It wouldn’t bug me at all, if the deer never grew to 3point or bigger.

[horshur]

If habitat is good, fawn survival increases. That allows us to support higher buck:doe ratios without impacting fawn survival.

Starting to clue in yet?
allows? Or results? So your saying is managed to those levels with doe tags?
I am not arguing. Pat I am open to the science but it has to make sense .

[horshur]

Because you don’t own region three... you greedy ass. No one forced me to live here... next year I will hunt reg3 because of you 
I wish it was possible to relate what happens when the November long weekend descends. That is the busiest weekend here...I don't blame guys coming to hunt..I don't blame guys being resentful too..it probably is not possible to understand unless you live it..this is a place we're vegans become meat eaters in a year or two of living here.antis buy guns to defend there chickens and green voters ask you to help them with cougars on there property. Personally for social reasons I would support the one buck limit..family reasons I support a 3 deer limit

[Fisher-Dude]

allows? Or results? So your saying is managed to those levels with doe tags?
I am not arguing. Pat I am open to the science but it has to make sense .

Nothing to do with doe harvest.

If habitat supports a higher carrying capacity, we can over winter more adults and more fawns successfully. The CC allows more deer, higher buck to doe ratios won't adversely affect fawn survival in such cases.

Where habitat doesn't have good feed supplies, then there's a trade off between adults and fawns. Fawn recruitment grows populations.

[.300WSMImpact!]

Reg 8 is still supporting some decent MD numbers and a bit of age.
Older burns are seeing a tank but newer burns a bump.
Compared to regions like the WK, OK region is pretty good.

The glory years in the OK are a while back (06-11) but we do not have the implosion like the the WK

not yet but the signs are right in front of our face numbers are changing, what its going to be like in 5 years probably like the west koots

[Gunner Staal]

I can’t speak to all the changes as I really think one has to have some level of local knowledge to truly appreciate....or not appreciate them. I live in QCI and like the changes to the moose season. That any bull week is a gong show. I would love to see the whole thing just go LEH with the longer unicorn season. It would be effective in relieving some pressure. Mule deer bags in 3 seem to make sense as well. Now the black bear going LEH in QCI is a total joke. This place is crawling with black bears. I mean crawling. Deer hunting here is not what it once was and the black bear population has a lot to do with it. The hunt going LEH is nothing more than political pressure from anti hunters and FN. Period. 4 bear tags for this whole place is a complete joke. The CO’s will shoot 5 times that next year in problem bears.

[horshur]

Nothing to do with doe harvest.

If habitat supports a higher carrying capacity, we can over winter more adults and more fawns successfully. The CC allows more deer, higher buck to doe ratios won't adversely affect fawn survival in such cases.

Where habitat doesn't have good feed supplies, then there's a trade off between adults and fawns. Fawn recruitment grows populations.

you may actually be on the cusp of a decline..a stable population of older class deer are very productive under heavy predation because they cannot exceed carrying capacity. Actual recruitment is near zero. The population looks fine on outside until the life span of the stable herd reaches its end..then you have a crash.
Very much like you just seen with the moose your bull to cow ratios all looked fine and then seemingly overnight where did all the moose go?
The heavy predatated herd can even be larger then pre high pred numbers because it gets productive..but nature abhors a vacuum predation numbers climb in response to ungulate numbers and it spirals downhill. Predation is primarily on the young.
If you are referencing the ok mint fire it is not very fair because it has limited access. A fair percent of that herd is almost unhuntable when comparing a similar productive burn like Barrier and the pressure it gets on bucks. You are
Refrencing an almost non existent scenario for much of the province as an example.

[Fisher-Dude]

you may actually be on the cusp of a decline..a stable population of older class deer are very productive under heavy predation because they cannot exceed carrying capacity. Actual recruitment is near zero. The population looks fine on outside until the life span of the stable herd reaches its end..then you have a crash.
Very much like you just seen with the moose your bull to cow ratios all looked fine and then seemingly overnight where did all the moose go?
The heavy predatated herd can even be larger then pre high pred numbers because it gets productive..but nature abhors a vacuum predation numbers climb in response to ungulate numbers and it spirals downhill. Predation is primarily on the young.
If you are referencing the ok mint fire it is not very fair because it has limited access. A fair percent of that herd is almost unhuntable when comparing a similar productive burn like Barrier and the pressure it gets on bucks. You are
Refrencing an almost non existent scenario for much of the province as an example.

Not referencing OK Mtn. As I said, heavily roaded and heavily hunted.

[dana]

Looking at the Proposed Changes I am very pleased. Some good thought was given on the current management issues. The best proposal is the dropping of the Interior Mule Deer baglimit to 1. I agree 100% with this proposal. It could have been worded slightly better though. Would have been easier to just change Regions 1 and 2 to a Blacktail deer season instead of carrying on with the bad science of calling them mule deer. ;)

[Walking Buffalo]

I have not read the whole thread, but did look at the proposed changes. Region 4-22 bighorn change proposed from GOS to LEH had the local guide outfitter on the survey flight. I can't help but develop a conspiracy theory on that one!!!

You think the outfitter blindfolded the sheep counters?

The proposal seems to follow the Sheep management procedure....

Though I don't see how this change will positively effect the population reduction.
The only rational offered to that end is limiting human presence will increase herd productivity.

Putting pressure on cats and wolves will likely solve this issue much faster than any habitat or hunting action.

[Gunner Staal]

Looking at the Proposed Changes I am very pleased. Some good thought was given on the current management issues. The best proposal is the dropping of the Interior Mule Deer baglimit to 1. I agree 100% with this proposal. It could have been worded slightly better though. Would have been easier to just change Regions 1 and 2 to a Blacktail deer season instead of carrying on with the bad science of calling them mule deer. ;)


Couldn’t agree more! I also think some of the ATV closures are excellent. Not to take away from anyone’s particular style of hunting.....but let’s take a look at hunting at its most basic and fundamental roots. A nice walk in the woods with a chance of harvesting an animal. I was disappointed in the Region 8 late archery aeason being canned. That was one of my favourite hunts. I wish they would drop crossbows and make it compound only. That alone would drop success rates. We are one of the only provinces that allows crossbows concurrent with a bow only season. They should be in line with muzzle loaders. There is no worse feeling as a bow hunter than freezing your butt off in a tree stand all day only to watch a guy jump off an atv, take a rest and whack a mulie at 80 yards with a crossbow in the archery season.

[IronNoggin]

... I wish they would drop crossbows and make it compound only. That alone would drop success rates...

Classic divide and conquer mentality right there http://forum.flybc.ca/style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif

Let me fix that for you then - Crossbows alone noticeably reduce wounding rates in this province. :twisted:

Cheers,
Nog

[Bugle M In]

Classic divide and conquer mentality right there http://forum.flybc.ca/style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif

Let me fix that for you then - Crossbows alone noticeably reduce wounding rates in this province. :twisted:

Cheers,
Nog

Sadly...I agree with you....
just watch it slip away folks....and I won't even bother at the point to say "told you so".
Not everyone can pull back a bow, some have shoulder issues....
A crossbow isn't going to be a big difference as compared to rifle....
Plus, probably may mean a few less "wounded animals" as I can see people with a crossbow being a little better
then trying to use a bow only...god knows I have seen my share of game with arrows in them...walking around.
And then, you fall one day, cant use your arm properly to use bow only....and your "out"....
Because you asked for it!

[Gunner Staal]

I’m no expert but I’m guessing they didn’t eliminate the archery season because they feel too many animals are being wounded. I’m guessing it’s over harvest. All I’m saying is that all things being equal, a compound is a tougher hunt and more difficult to get within ethical range and I feel would result in less animals being harvested in an archery season......that is compared to an archery season which includes crossbows. I’m not saying people can’t hunt with crossbows, just my opinion that they shouldn’t be lumped in with compounds/trad gear in an archery only context. Kind of like a lot of the rest of North America.

[IronNoggin]

... Kind of like a lot of the rest of North America.

There are a LOT of places in North America that allow crossbows through standard archery seasons.
More States than not btw.
In fact, I have a permit to do just that in Alberta & Saskatchewan myself.
Likely collect that from most places I would ever desire to hunt.

You would have me withdraw from hunting with pointy sticks due to permanent injuries?

Cheers,
Nog

[Gunner Staal]

Sounds like you’re talking about a special permit to hunt with crossbow due to physical limitations. That’s not what we’re discussing.

[limit time]

I’m no expert but I’m guessing they didn’t eliminate the archery season because they feel too many animals are being wounded. I’m guessing it’s over harvest. All I’m saying is that all things being equal, a compound is a tougher hunt and more difficult to get within ethical range and I feel would result in less animals being harvested in an archery season......that is compared to an archery season which includes crossbows. I’m not saying people can’t hunt with crossbows, just my opinion that they shouldn’t be lumped in with compounds/trad gear in an archery only context. Kind of like a lot of the rest of North America.
you could move to another province ? ( if you like it so much)

[Bugle M In]

Sounds like you’re talking about a special permit to hunt with crossbow due to physical limitations. That’s not what we’re discussing.
I get it, it may not be (physical limitations) what "you were discussing"....BUT....
It is something "to consider"...because it could be something that "happens to you".
If they closed or shorten the season, then yes, it better be due to "conservation concerns"....100%.
But, whether the bow is flung by crossbow rather then bow, should not be a factor in "harvest limitations".
If you want to have a separate discussion, something to say that "bow should only be used", that's fine, have a discussion/debate on that...IMO.
But in light of all the recent political/ethical climate out there right now against hunters, and hunting, a lot of us
on here have "lost our patience"....hope you can understand that?
Right now, it's probably more important to stay "united", rather then becoming "fractured" at every little corner.
Something that, if you follow all the threads...is running rampant.
In the end, people just get pissed off with one another, and we just become "more divided", sometimes just to
"prove the other one wrong".
Maybe one day down the road (if were lucky), we can go to that format again....but we really need to ask ourselves:
"do we need to get into the debate right now, with all that is going on, with people looking to shut us down, and a political party that no longer wants to keep our lifestyle protected"???
That's all...

[dana]

I find it comical that people actually are debating these proposals, like all is good in this province and 'I' want this and 'I' want that. Some on this site have been blowing sunshine up your asses way way to long. The fact is, things in this province are very very bad. Wildlife pops across BC are tanking. Now you can pretend the sky isn't falling. You can even bring in so-called science from the States that tells you so. But....the sky is indeed falling!!! We need to get off our collective asses and do something about it!!! Not only are our wildlife in dire conditions, we have a government that is about to cater to their base and take everything from us!!! Arguing about proposals is just want 'they' want. Keep us divided and they have the battle won.

[eric]

Nice to hear from you Dana, and spot on with your observations..

[IronNoggin]

... We need to get off our collective asses and do something about it!!! Not only are our wildlife in dire conditions, we have a government that is about to cater to their base and take everything from us!!! Arguing about proposals is just want 'they' want. Keep us divided and they have the battle won.

Welcome Back Dana.
You have been missed.

Cheers,
Nog

[Gunner Staal]

I wasn’t trying to start an argument at all or be divisive. Was simply expressing my opinion on a particular regulation/season that the bulk of our other provinces seem to have adopted. We are certainly are all in this together, like it or not. This site can and is a great resource for alot off issues surrounding hunting. Unfortunately there are a lot of intelligent and knowledgeable people who refrain from using it because of the backlash they get from other users when expressing any form of opinion.

[Bugle M In]

I wasn’t trying to start an argument at all or be divisive. Was simply expressing my opinion on a particular regulation/season that the bulk of our other provinces seem to have adopted. We are certainly are all in this together, like it or not. This site can and is a great resource for alot off issues surrounding hunting. Unfortunately there are a lot of intelligent and knowledgeable people who refrain from using it because of the backlash they get from other users when expressing any form of opinion.

Yup...I hear you....
Lately it's the "political climate" that has taken this site to an all time low....as far as bashing goes...IMO.
Obviously, this is an "open forum", where people like to share a lot of different things, related to hunting.
With that comes "open debate" obviously....
and sometimes the debates get heated for sure...
Again...just a "sensitive time" for the hunting community for sure...it's not "business/chat as usual" due to things that keep happening out there in the media/political arena these days...but it's been coming for quite sometime now.
It would be great if the social climate was such that we could just sit here and debate on "minor stuff"....
but, there sure is a lot of finger pointing going on right now amongst us hunters...trying to blame the other etc..
At some point I hope we get "exhausted" beating ourselves up....and look for ways to "work together" to put hunting back into a "positive spotlight for us and future generations".
And then we can all get back to "how to we grow more wildlife" concerns....debates...lol
Anyways....have a good Christmas....BMI

[leadpillproductions]

I agree 100% but where what do we start with ?

I find it comical that people actually are debating these proposals, like all is good in this province and 'I' want this and 'I' want that. Some on this site have been blowing sunshine up your asses way way to long. The fact is, things in this province are very very bad. Wildlife pops across BC are tanking. Now you can pretend the sky isn't falling. You can even bring in so-called science from the States that tells you so. But....the sky is indeed falling!!! We need to get off our collective asses and do something about it!!! Not only are our wildlife in dire conditions, we have a government that is about to cater to their base and take everything from us!!! Arguing about proposals is just want 'they' want. Keep us divided and they have the battle won.

[dana]

Where do we start? That is the easy one. Voting as a Block and kicking these jackasses out of power. We only need 2 seats. It is doable to collapse their weak grasp on power. Hunters are going to have to choose. Are they loyal to their union or are they loyal to their hunting heritage? Those that swallowed the BS being fed to them by the so-called hunter friendly org, need to throw out the lies that they easily listened to when they got worked up against other hunters. They need to become card carrying BC Liberals, as that is the only options. Choose your poison. The devil you know or the devil you don't. It is obvious that chosing the later just royally screwed us. All hunters need to put aside petty differences and work to vote in blocks and convince everyone they know, the NDP and the Greens are very very bad for BC. Friends don't let friends vote ndp. Friends don't let friends vote Green. First hurdle is to make for certain Christy's vacant seat is overwhelmingly won by a BC Liberal. Second hurdle is to actively pursue a recall campaign against the Liberal that walked across the floor to become speaker. Do both these, we will force an election and then we kick their asses the f#ck out!!! Then we can get on with the business of fixing our wildlife issues!!!

[horshur]

Not referencing OK Mtn. As I said, heavily roaded and heavily hunted.

recent ongoing study in kootenay region in response to First Nations,resident,and guide outfitter concerns. Region 4:02 and 4:03 buck doe ratios 27:100. Mu 4:03 has highest number hunter days of 12,472(19% of regional total) 1600 residents per year.
Must be because of all the good habitat?

[palmer]

recent ongoing study in kootenay region in response to First Nations,resident,and guide outfitter concerns. Region 4:02 and 4:03 buck doe ratios 27:100. Mu 4:03 has highest number hunter days of 12,472(19% of regional total) 1600 residents per year.
Must be because of all the good habitat?

The only problem with Buck to Doe ratios is they need to be shown with overall numbers counted. You count 4 Bucks and 10 Does you have 40:100 ratio that looks great but only 14 deer...Terrible. So these numbers need to be shown with overall numbers counted to see how well or poorly the herd numbers are doing. Then we can look at the herd makeup and ratios.

[horshur]

[QUOTE=palmer;1965317]The only problem with Buck to Doe ratios is they need to be shown with overall numbers counted. You count 4 Bucks and 10 Does you have 40:100 ratio that looks great but only 14 deer...Terrible. So these numbers need to be shown with overall numbers counted to see how well or poorly the herd numbers are doing. Then we can look at the herd makeup and ratios.[/QUOTE

palmer my intent is questioning fishes assertion that the 27:100 ratio is because of good habitat..a little digging and I find that in 2012 survey 4:02 has 39:100, 4:26,06,07 ratios 30:100 in areas considered depressed populations with poor habitat and encroachment of whitetail.Somehow the numbers need to be reconciled.

[HarryToolips]

Where do we start? That is the easy one. Voting as a Block and kicking these jackasses out of power. We only need 2 seats. It is doable to collapse their weak grasp on power. Hunters are going to have to choose. Are they loyal to their union or are they loyal to their hunting heritage? Those that swallowed the BS being fed to them by the so-called hunter friendly org, need to throw out the lies that they easily listened to when they got worked up against other hunters. They need to become card carrying BC Liberals, as that is the only options. Choose your poison. The devil you know or the devil you don't. It is obvious that chosing the later just royally screwed us. All hunters need to put aside petty differences and work to vote in blocks and convince everyone they know, the NDP and the Greens are very very bad for BC. Friends don't let friends vote ndp. Friends don't let friends vote Green. First hurdle is to make for certain Christy's vacant seat is overwhelmingly won by a BC Liberal. Second hurdle is to actively pursue a recall campaign against the Liberal that walked across the floor to become speaker. Do both these, we will force an election and then we kick their asses the f#ck out!!! Then we can get on with the business of fixing our wildlife issues!!!
Right, so when is the vote on Christy's vacant seat, I haven't seen anything on that lately?...and how the hell do we do a recall campaign?? I'd love to kick the NDGreenies out....your right, that would be the first step, I believe we were very close to getting exactly what wildlife needed in this province - funding with a Liberal victory - I had a good chat at the BCWF meeting with Steve Thompson back in April - I know he's another politician but I do believe the Liberals did have the wheels in motion to have all the funding from hunting licenses etc go back into wildlife and habitat..

Good to see ya back btw...

[HarryToolips]

So help me out here, they want to reduce the hunting season on 6 pt elk in the WK to Oct 1 - 20...yet 4 - 08 showed good bull:cow ratios yet it had the highest hunter pressure in the WK, and there was only one MU that had a lower than desired bull:cow ratio in all the WK? And how would bulls be able to reach 6 points quicker on average in the WK compared to the EK, or region 8? How does region 8 have just as long of a elk season, yet continue to increase in numbers yet the WK is apparently struggling?? Is it really hunting related, or are we just shooting ourselves in the foot here?...

[horshur]

2014 study counts were done in late fall and again in spring fawn to doe numbers surprisingly nearly the same both counts!
Huge red flag! Disclaimer in study that sight ability accuracy cannot be adjusted in BC for any certainty.

[limit time]

Where do we start? That is the easy one. Voting as a Block and kicking these jackasses out of power. We only need 2 seats. It is doable to collapse their weak grasp on power. Hunters are going to have to choose. Are they loyal to their union or are they loyal to their hunting heritage? Those that swallowed the BS being fed to them by the so-called hunter friendly org, need to throw out the lies that they easily listened to when they got worked up against other hunters. They need to become card carrying BC Liberals, as that is the only options. Choose your poison. The devil you know or the devil you don't. It is obvious that chosing the later just royally screwed us. All hunters need to put aside petty differences and work to vote in blocks and convince everyone they know, the NDP and the Greens are very very bad for BC. Friends don't let friends vote ndp. Friends don't let friends vote Green. First hurdle is to make for certain Christy's vacant seat is overwhelmingly won by a BC Liberal. Second hurdle is to actively pursue a recall campaign against the Liberal that walked across the floor to become speaker. Do both these, we will force an election and then we kick their asses the f#ck out!!! Then we can get on with the business of fixing our wildlife issues!!!

Now this is 100% Based !

[mpotzold]

Right, so when is the vote on Christy's vacant seat, I haven't seen anything on that lately?...and how the hell do we do a recall campaign?? I'd love to kick the NDGreenies out....your right, that would be the first step, I believe we were very close to getting exactly what wildlife needed in this province - funding with a Liberal victory - I had a good chat at the BCWF meeting with Steve Thompson back in April - I know he's another politician but I do believe the Liberals did have the wheels in motion to have all the funding from hunting licenses etc go back into wildlife and habitat..

Good to see ya back btw...

Horgan told reporters he will call a by-election in early January, and Kelowna West voters will head to the polls in early February.

Ben Stewart for the Libs should be a cakewalk

Shelley Cook for the NDP running again-last time Clark more than doubled Cook in the election, winning 59.6 per cent of the vote, versus Cook’s 24.8

Robert Stupka will run for the Greens

Re: recall -an MLA can be recalled after 18 months in office & 40% of eligible voters must vote. A very difficult task.

http://www.elections.bc.ca/docs/894%20-%20Recall%20Pamphlet%20-%20The%20Recall%20Process%20in%20BC.pdf

[LBM]

The only problem with Buck to Doe ratios is they need to be shown with overall numbers counted. You count 4 Bucks and 10 Does you have 40:100 ratio that looks great but only 14 deer...Terrible. So these numbers need to be shown with overall numbers counted to see how well or poorly the herd numbers are doing. Then we can look at the herd makeup and ratios.

Yes I agree when they say 20:100 its just a ratio same as 1:5 so how many are actually there. Bad part is just a few MUs are done in a region and only a portion of the MU.

[boxhitch]

The only problem with Buck to Doe ratios is they need to be shown with overall numbers counted. You count 4 Bucks and 10 Does you have 40:100 ratio that looks great but only 14 deer...Terrible. So these numbers need to be shown with overall numbers counted to see how well or poorly the herd numbers are doing. Then we can look at the herd makeup and ratios.


Yes I agree when they say 20:100 its just a ratio same as 1:5 so how many are actually there. Bad part is just a few MUs are done in a region and only a portion of the MU.Sex ratios have little to do with pop. numbers, they just show the health and ability to put young on the ground. When the ratios are good, there is little sense in adjusting any hunting reg. It also says having more bucks won't help increase pop numbers.
Ratios is the management objective in-hand, there is little else saying we need more deer or moose or elk.

[boxhitch]

So that's a big change in bag limit for interior mulies!
The rationale seems fair enough?The only thing the change will do is have the appearance of having more bucks available to the same number of hunters. Clearly about quality not quantity.

[boxhitch]

Can someone explain to me how making the 8-3 sheep draw from 3/4 curl to any ram would lower the hunting pressure, as they claim?


Im assuming its LEH so there is limited pressure already. It would only increase annual harvests. Which must not be even close to being met if its proposed for any ram


In the proposal it specifically states:

"reduce disturbance by reducing overall hunter numbers"Or likely the tag numbers will be reduced?
Changing to any ram has a few benefits, to kill numbers and also to enforcement issues.
Instead of say 20 permits to kill 5 under 3/4 rule, 8 or 10 could be issued for any ram and quota would reached.
Half as many hunters and zero problems with short sheep

[horshur]

Sex ratios have little to do with pop. numbers, they just show the health and ability to put young on the ground. When the ratios are good, there is little sense in adjusting any hunting reg. It also says having more bucks won't help increase pop numbers.
Ratios is the management objective in-hand, there is little else saying we need more deer or moose or elk.
No fish said it's about habitat..

[horshur]

The only thing the change will do is have the appearance of having more bucks available to the same number of hunters. Clearly about quality not quantity.
Did you read the region three survey summary? Reducing bag limits is about crowding.The Quality of the hunt experience.

[Fisher-Dude]

recent ongoing study in kootenay region in response to First Nations,resident,and guide outfitter concerns. Region 4:02 and 4:03 buck doe ratios 27:100. Mu 4:03 has highest number hunter days of 12,472(19% of regional total) 1600 residents per year.
Must be because of all the good habitat?

Those are closer to whitetail hunter numbers and days, buddy, not mule deer.

The 2012 surveys had exceedingly low buck:doe ratios in the Cranbrook GMZ, and resulted in adjustments to the buck seasons, although the sample size in the surveys was considered small to draw meaningful conclusions. There are threads on this site about that very situation that you can look up if you're interested, IIRC the samples in 4-03 and 4-02 were single digit ratios.


Mule deer 4-03 hunters 2012 - 2016
656
606
523
702
666

Mule deer 4-03 hunter days 2012-2016
6290
4617
3717
5542
4418

[horshur]

Rationale for the Survey: The Kootenay Region initiated a mule deer monitoring project to investigate causes of population declines and factors limiting recovery. Fourty GPS collars were deployed on adult female mule deer in MUs 4-02 and 4-03 in winter 2014/15 and an additional 40 collars will be deployed in winter 2015/16 in the West Kootenay and North Trench. Composition data were needed in these MUs so population growth rate (lambda; λ) could be calculated using a survival-recruitment model (DeCesare et al. 2012). Fawn recruitment data and adult female survival estimates will be used to assess whether population growth is being limited by recruitment or doe survival (or both). Surveys will occur annually in monitored populations to measure population change. This was the Kootenay Region’s second highest priority survey for 2014-15. Mule deer hunter numbers averaged 1600 (19% of regional total) from 2008-14 in the study area, while hunters days averaged 12,472 (19% of regional total). MU 4-03 has the highest number of mule deer hunter days in the region (2009-2014 average = 5,116 days). There are 10 guide-outfitters operating in the study area and over 1,600 resident mule deer hunters per year. Guide-outfitters, resident hunters and local First Nations have expressed concern with declining mule deer populations for the past 10 years. These surveys will not result in immediate changes to hunting seasons; however research findings will support management actions to increase populations and enhance hunting opportunity.

[Fisher-Dude]

Rationale for the Survey: The Kootenay Region initiated a mule deer monitoring project to investigate causes of population declines and factors limiting recovery. Fourty GPS collars were deployed on adult female mule deer in MUs 4-02 and 4-03 in winter 2014/15 and an additional 40 collars will be deployed in winter 2015/16 in the West Kootenay and North Trench. Composition data were needed in these MUs so population growth rate (lambda; λ) could be calculated using a survival-recruitment model (DeCesare et al. 2012). Fawn recruitment data and adult female survival estimates will be used to assess whether population growth is being limited by recruitment or doe survival (or both). Surveys will occur annually in monitored populations to measure population change. This was the Kootenay Region’s second highest priority survey for 2014-15. Mule deer hunter numbers averaged 1600 (19% of regional total) from 2008-14 in the study area, while hunters days averaged 12,472 (19% of regional total). MU 4-03 has the highest number of mule deer hunter days in the region (2009-2014 average = 5,116 days). There are 10 guide-outfitters operating in the study area and over 1,600 resident mule deer hunters per year. Guide-outfitters, resident hunters and local First Nations have expressed concern with declining mule deer populations for the past 10 years. These surveys will not result in immediate changes to hunting seasons; however research findings will support management actions to increase populations and enhance hunting opportunity.

So you misstated the facts in your first post, confusing regional figures with MU level figures.

Best to leave the statistical data analysis to those with experience in data interpretation.

[dana]

Hey fisher, look who is back? I think it is time you stop being an internet bully on this site. More are coming back to reclaim this site. I will give you the same mantra you gave me 3 years ago. You are either for us or you are against us. Time to pack your bags and take your leaf licking raincoast buddies with you or shape up, shut up and get with the program. You sit on your high horse and spout absolute bullshit everyday. You are nothing but a keyboard warrior who suddenly becomes bullet proof when you log on, which according to your history is pretty much all the time. I and the others on this site are sick and tired of all the bullies. You guys just got your asses handed to you and it is time for all of you to GO!!!

[boxhitch]

Just couldn't leave it alone, could you
yeah, you're back..........

[Steeleco]

Clearly the antagonist aren't just spawned from the BCWF debacle! I recall the old days when members posted spectacular pictures and told worthy stories. Now it seems that this site has turned into a bar at last call.

I for one in the new year will try to get back the days of old. If the rest of you (and you know who you are!) want to slug it out, do it on your own site. Christ knows HBC has spawned a few them. How well they're doing is anybody's guess, we're too busy policing the teenagers here on this site.