Non local band night hunting elk at Pitt River

[Asco]

That pretty much says it. Coquitlam band has no allocation, but some
fellows have taken it upon themselves to go elk hunting at the Pitt.

Before you go after me for spreading rumours:
They introduced themselves to a local yesterday by saying "We are from the Coquitlam Band and we are here to kill elk".

Quadding up and down the road with rifles and lights until 11pm.
Trespassing on quads on private property, they do not appear to know
what is crown land ( none of the valley floor where they are) and what is private.

Locals are not happy with the visitors. There are a couple other bands that have allocations up there and harvested their elk in September and October in an organized fashion.

I don't know who deals with night hunting and such, but I hope some sort of enforcement gets up there and does some enforcing.

[Wild one]

If you can get the Coquitlam band involved odds of seeing results improves

[Bugle M In]

If you can get the Coquitlam band involved odds of seeing results improves

I was just going to say....
Contact the Band that does get those "allocations" for that area....
Sadly, that may be the only way to get it to stop.
The CO's should be the ones....but again...they don't.....
And to be honest...saying that CO's don't get involved on FN issues is getting tiring!!!
We should be on the CO's asses to enforce that...
In turn, the CO's may get on their bosses to make it stick!
It's why I don't really care about "transplanting" game, like these elk, in FN areas....
What's the point...we never get to hunt them....and they get to do whatever they want with them....
Why do we do that??????
Don't get me wrong, it ain't all FN....but these transplants just never come to fruition in these type of areas...
Yes, the elk were starting to get hold in the area....and now this......sad day again.
I guess I will be in touch with a few of those locals to see if this is true.....I hope I am wrong.

[Wild one]

I was just going to say....
Contact the Band that does get those "allocations" for that area....
Sadly, that may be the only way to get it to stop.
The CO's should be the ones....but again...they don't.....
And to be honest...saying that CO's don't get involved on FN issues is getting tiring!!!
We should be on the CO's asses to enforce that...
In turn, the CO's may get on their bosses to make it stick!
It's why I don't really care about "transplanting" game, like these elk, in FN areas....
What's the point...we never get to hunt them....and they get to do whatever they want with them....
Why do we do that??????
Don't get me wrong, it ain't all FN....but these transplants just never come to fruition in these type of areas...
Yes, the elk were starting to get hold in the area....and now this......sad day again.
I guess I will be in touch with a few of those locals to see if this is true.....I hope I am wrong.

Some bands get really pissed at FNs hunting their territories without permission

As for COs hounding them with do little many gave up because of how cases end in front of a judge. Need to harass those above COs so they have the power and faith to do their job

There are COs that would love to have the power to make charges stick on FN going outside of their rights.

[bigredchev]

The law side of the system is weak and clouded with remorse.

Out current law system plays into the hands of people intent on abusing the system, rather than uphold like us.


I blame the COs and the judges, the old saying goes:


Give them an inch and they will take a mile



Well, we sure have given them a few inches....

[303savage]

There are COs that would love to have the power to make charges stick on FN going outside of their rights.

First the rights that F.N have has to be defined.
I don't think it is fair the they claim their right but use our technology.

[Big Lew]

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the property owners up there were to harvest
an elk or two and blame it on the natives now that it's been established there are
natives actively hunting there.

[Firstblood]

But thats a traditional method of hunting by moonlight havent you heard?!?

[IronNoggin]

Some bands get really pissed at FNs hunting their territories without permission


Assuming the horsemen have been invited...

This is likely the best course of action.
If those who live there, and as you put it are responsible and organized in their allocated harvest, they do tend to get a tad jaded when intruders arrive. I would be making damn certain these band(s) are informed asap.

Also make certain the band of the intruders is aware - by that I mean the Chief, Council & Elders' Council asap.
It may be a "renegade" (not sanctioned) action, and their leaders may be able to exert an influence.

Pictures. Observation and recording. Think eventual media / court.
Get the message to the media - they may duck, but they may not...
Be willing to stand up in court and testify that is was your private land this poaching occurred on. Make that well known.
Try not to become endangered doing so.


I blame the COs and the judges...

Give them an inch and they will take a mile...

I truly agree with how many inches we're currently taking. :icon_frow

However, the CO's are not in any position to decide who gets charged in these types of cases, and who does not. In fact, if some are warned not to charge in a given situation and still do, they will pace penalties for that decision.

Judges are a problem in many cases. So much so, and so high up, that I personally consider our supreme court (as it stands) to be utterly inept when dealing with anything of this (and some others) nature.

Politicians are the worst of the lot. Fawning and lusting for votes, and paying particular attention to the winds of political correctness as it applies to any situation. In a great many instances, pressure from these locusts decides an unjust and unworthy outcome for reprehensible actions.

Under the current (and constantly being adversely tested) system, well... Houston, We Have A Problem... http://forum.flybc.ca/style_emoticons/default/Idunno.gif

I do hope the offenders come to their senses before someone decides to do that for them... http://bigshotsbc.ca/images/smilies/wink.gif

Cheers,
Nog

[HappyJack]

First the rights that F.N have has to be defined.
I don't think it is fair the they claim their right but use our technology.

Gawd that has to be the stupidest thing native haters have come up with...you should try to drop it from your rants. just sayin

[HappyJack]

Assuming the horsemen have been invited...

This is likely the best course of action.
If those who live there, and as you put it are responsible and organized in their allocated harvest, they do tend to get a tad jaded when intruders arrive. I would be making damn certain these band(s) are informed asap.

Also make certain the band of the intruders is aware - by that I mean the Chief, Council & Elders' Council asap.
It may be a "renegade" (not sanctioned) action, and their leaders may be able to exert an influence.

Pictures. Observation and recording. Think eventual media / court.
Get the message to the media - they may duck, but they may not...
Be willing to stand up in court and testify that is was your private land this poaching occurred on. Make that well known.
Try not to become endangered doing so.



I truly agree with how many inches we're currently taking. :icon_frow

However, the CO's are not in any position to decide who gets charged in these types of cases, and who does not. In fact, if some are warned not to charge in a given situation and still do, they will pace penalties for that decision.

Judges are a problem in many cases. So much so, and so high up, that I personally consider our supreme court (as it stands) to be utterly inept when dealing with anything of this (and some others) nature.

Politicians are the worst of the lot. Fawning and lusting for votes, and paying particular attention to the winds of political correctness as it applies to any situation. In a great many instances, pressure from these locusts decides an unjust and unworthy outcome for reprehensible actions.

Under the current (and constantly being adversely tested) system, well... Houston, We Have A Problem... http://forum.flybc.ca/style_emoticons/default/Idunno.gif

I do hope the offenders come to their senses before someone decides to do that for them... http://bigshotsbc.ca/images/smilies/wink.gif

Cheers,
Nog

For crying out loud, it's not illegal to interfere with an illegal hunt. Maybe some locals should give them some company?? I imagine the RCMP should be dealing with trespassers should they not?

[Squamch]

Gawd that has to be the stupidest thing native haters have come up with...you should try to drop it from your rants. just sayin

I don't hate Indians, I hate poachers. If you want to have a traditional hunt, use traditional methods. Don't use our (that's modern humans, not just evil old whitey's) technologies.

[HappyJack]

I don't hate Indians, I hate poachers. If you want to have a traditional hunt, use traditional methods. Don't use our (that's modern humans, not just evil old whitey's) technologies.

Just in case you missed it, they are humans too. I just hate that saying, it makes people sound so backward. The tradition is to hunt at night, the tradition isn't to hunt at night in a loin cloth with a spear. And it's not just a tradition, it's a right, that some fools in the past wrote into our Constitution.

[bigredchev]

I will say this:

I'd I hunt at night with led spot lights from a vehicle I would arrested and processed within 24 hrs as a typical white male



They will be given a wave and goodbye doing the same action, who is the criminal?


The CO who turns his head and looks the other way is just as guilty as the primary offender. It's the same as conspiracy to commit a crime as is it to follow through. Playing dumb or blind is not an excuse we should be using in this day and age

[browningboy]

And so the saga begins... and people are so polite about this bull shiet, but really the government is to blame more than the natives as they are providing them the get out of jail passes, so they take advantage of it

[HarryToolips]

If they are hunting outside of their traditional territory, then this is poaching, so,phone RAPP...certain CO's in this case will make an attempt to uphold the law on them, I phoned in once when natives were illegally selling fish and the CO pursued it - it's always worth a shot...and I agree with the recommendations that the local band should be contacted as well..

[Dannybuoy]

If they are hunting outside of their traditional territory, then this is poaching, so,phone RAPP...certain CO's in this case will make an attempt to uphold the law on them, I phoned in once when natives were illegally selling fish and the CO pursued it - it's always worth a shot...and I agree with the recommendations that the local band should be contacted as well..
Yah right ! In region 9 I'll guess

[Bugle M In]

Well...maybe there may be some good in all of this....
The Bands that have been given the elk permits, have from my understanding, been following the agreement.
I think they get 2 per season (although, I understand they can let these accumulate....meaning no expiry date)
Anyways, that a different discussion....but....
I can see some Band Infighting....
Just like the old "traditional ways"......foreign tribe in another's space....war.....lol
At least the bands following the rules may now want "protection from other bands"!!??
Long overdue infighting.
I do see this going to court (if this is all true, and CO's press charges)....who knows what precedence will be set this time??

What would suck...is nothing good comes from this, and nobody does nothing.
I had always hoped that these "transplants" that we have done over the years, would eventually transpire into some
great hunting opportunities, and maybe even the hope of a GOS for us Residents.
The other benefit would have been that some of us would not have to travel up to say R4 every year, and maybe
displace some of the pressure up there off of those elk.
Imagine if elk hunting was open in most regions?....but, it will never happen.
We lost that opportunity around Lyton, and I do not see that these transplants will ever give us residents
ample opportunity down the road....especially not when this happens, and I think it's only a matter of time till
Squamish and the Stave also are in similar situations...IMO.

[Jagermeister]

Gawd that has to be the stupidest thing native haters have come up with...you should try to drop it from your rants. just sayinThe truth of the matter is the use of modern high candlepower light beams is a long way removed from "traditional" wouldn't you say? And I for one will support whoever wants to rant about it for as long as the practice continues.

[HarryToolips]

Yah right ! In region 9 I'll guess
2 years ago, region 8, I took pics and sent them in, the CO called me up for more info as he was attempting to press charges as they had no license to sell, and are supposed to use it only for their own consumption..don't know if they were convicted but at least it was an attempt..

[Whonnock Boy]

How much damage could a band of 80 members do?

[Asco]

If I'm not mistaken, the transplanted elk outside Kimberly/ Creston were shot out in 1 year by the First Nations peoples in the area. Damage is doable. We have allocations and laws/ regulations for a reason.

Update: the 3rd leh bull was taken yesterday at Pitt. Yes there were 3 tags this year.

[IronNoggin]

... The tradition is to hunt at night, the tradition isn't to hunt at night in a loin cloth with a spear. And it's not just a tradition, it's a right, that some fools in the past wrote into our Constitution.

It is not a tradition - it is bullshit.
You can try to claim it was, but the extremely little information that exists in this regard points to fishing practices with a torch at night - NOT hunting.

And you are further in error claiming this dangerous and abhorrent practice is a "right" written into the Constitution.
It is in fact, a legal "right" bestowed upon a single band on the Saanich Peninsula by our wacked out Supreme Court.
It is only by extension (fear of losing the court battle) this so-called "right" has been extended to other bands in BC, and in fact, across Canada. As such, it has no Constitutional Protection as you assert, and can likely be challenged on the grounds of public safety.


... The CO who turns his head and looks the other way is just as guilty as the primary offender. It's the same as conspiracy to commit a crime as is it to follow through. Playing dumb or blind is not an excuse we should be using in this day and age

And you continue to miss the point. The CO who turns a blind eye has been ordered to do so. Should he ignore those marching orders, he WILL face disciplinary action. And, it will never ever get to court even if he does lay charges against his superiors' desires, they will be certain to nullify any such action. The problem does not lie at the CO level. Period.

Cheers,
Nog

[HarryToolips]

^^^I agree with challenging the supreme courts decision to let them hunt at night, considering public safety...I wonder what would be the best way to do it..

[MichelD]

If they are from the Coquitlam Band I'm surprised the Katzie Band isn't upset about it.

[Blainer]

It is not a tradition - it is bullshit.
You can try to claim it was, but the extremely little information that exists in this regard points to fishing practices with a torch at night - NOT hunting.



Cheers,
NogWell stated, 1 law, our trucks, our firearms, our fuel, our bullets, it's even our booze. Tradition my ass

[squamishhunter]

I agree with an article I read recently; the next wars in North America will be civil wars.

[Bugle M In]

If they are from the Coquitlam Band I'm surprised the Katzie Band isn't upset about it.

I have no idea what the 2 bands relationship is like between themselves?
I can only imagine that the Katzie aren't happy if all this is true.
(my friend who had this seasons draw got to know a few of the locals very well, and I suspect the owner, who holds a great deal of property up there will be the one to ask).
Unless the 2 bands made a "backroom deal"???? BUT, that would be only speculation on my part, and there is
nothing to support that....just so you all are aware.
The lunacy in this all, by the Coq Band is....these elk were, to best of my knowledge, never "traditional prey" for
them to hunt.
I think in the end....that's what makes me the most mad.
We try to introduce species, like Roosevelt Elk, into an area where they can thrive, in areas where they aren't
"traditionally", and maybe in hopes of adding hunting opportunities for all of us....but in the end, these chances
for everyone get taken away....and sorry if this sounds so racist to some, but it seems to be one group who
just feels like it's there right....
Here they are given the chance at a species that can be very enjoyable to hunt, and the meat is fantastic, and they
just "beat it up" just before it gets going really well....
Sorry, but just makes me angry that this happens....and makes it even harder to become "Accepting" of
"Cultural Differences".....in the end, it makes we want to see it disappear.
It's just gone too far.....there is no logic in sustaining this anymore, if this is the "thanks" in the end.

[MichelD]

Double post. See below.

[MichelD]

I believe that the historical record indicates that though once widespread throughout southern BC, human activity and expansion slowly extinguished the elk on the mainland, leaving only Vancouver Island to support this species in Canada.

Of course we are now all familiar with the reintroductions onto the South Coast.

[browningboy]

The two bands should scrap it out like the traditional days, someone should phone the Katzies and stir some shit

[HappyJack]

It is not a tradition - it is bullshit.
You can try to claim it was, but the extremely little information that exists in this regard points to fishing practices with a torch at night - NOT hunting.

And you are further in error claiming this dangerous and abhorrent practice is a "right" written into the Constitution.
It is in fact, a legal "right" bestowed upon a single band on the Saanich Peninsula by our wacked out Supreme Court.
It is only by extension (fear of losing the court battle) this so-called "right" has been extended to other bands in BC, and in fact, across Canada. As such, it has no Constitutional Protection as you assert, and can likely be challenged on the grounds of public safety.



And you continue to miss the point. The CO who turns a blind eye has been ordered to do so. Should he ignore those marching orders, he WILL face disciplinary action. And, it will never ever get to court even if he does lay charges against his superiors' desires, they will be certain to nullify any such action. The problem does not lie at the CO level. Period.

Cheers,
Nog


It is not a tradition - it is bullshit.

It is a tradition to hunt at night, even my grandparents did it. So you can scale down the attack boyo. AND it is a RIGHT to carry on as they have traditionally done, apparently they convinced the SCC that hunting at night was something they had always done. I don't agree with it, but that's the law and at this point it's legal.

[HappyJack]

The truth of the matter is the use of modern high candlepower light beams is a long way removed from "traditional" wouldn't you say? And I for one will support whoever wants to rant about it for as long as the practice continues.

You are correct, nothing traditional about using high powered lights at all.

[IronNoggin]

It is a tradition to hunt at night, even my grandparents did it....

You have ANYTHING besides your own hearsay to back that up??
And please don't present the worn out "traditional knowledge" routine, rather something a little more tangible please & thanks... :wink:

Wondering...
Nog

[Islandeer]

Talk about a convenient truth!

The issue I have with verbal history is the tendency for the last version to not vaguely resemble the original yarn.

Fn platform is something like it happened this way because Im saying it did, which leads to prove that this is not true.

Which clearly leads to the counter of prove that it is true.


Its elementary logic.

[antlerking]

A good read of what rights FN have in BC http://aboriginal.legalaid.bc.ca/resources/pdfs/pubs/A-Guide-to-Aboriginal-Harvesting-Rights-eng.pdf The way I read it there is a conversation concern LEH and it is not their traditional land or they would have been given rights to hunt Elk

[Weatherby Fan]

Ah heck I’m done worrying about the 1st Nations shooting all the game.....when it’s all gone they will just blame everyone else that it was overhunted and now their people are starving to death and they will get BIG CASH settlements for lack food, then they’ll start shooting cattle as it’s their traditional right, it’s ok the Supreme Court of Canada ruled in their favour.......yup it’s all good :roll: