Wonder if cougars are doing any damage???

[Bugle M In]

Actually not really sure if this is okay, but it is on facebook, around Kamloops lake.
(hopefully the link works) for facebook people.

https://www.facebook.com/ryan.headlee.7/posts/10101185643423398

[cptnoblivious]

Saw this on Imgur yesterday. Amazing that he was able to capture the photos

[allan]

That almost happened to me one time, after I told my wife the story she does not want me to be hunting solo any more:(

[swampthing]

What do you mean by damage! Damage to the deer population? They take their share. That's a popular cat hunting area there as well.

[TheWanderingBard]

Yep. . .seems as though that cougar did in fact do some damage to that deer ;-)

[Bugle M In]

What do you mean by damage! Damage to the deer population? They take their share. That's a popular cat hunting area there as well.

Relax buddy, I guess I chose the wrong title for you?
Just wanted folks to see the link.
And yes, that's what cats do, but, there do seem to be more of them around then years ago...IMO
I know wolves get a lot of the heat, but maybe not all those kills people are running into are from them???
Pretty impressive photo's.

[Salty]

Cougars eat meat. Deer are made of meat, so I'm going with yes for a thousand Alex :)

[mpotzold]

Relax buddy, I guess I chose the wrong title for you?
Just wanted folks to see the link.
And yes, that's what cats do, but, there do seem to be more of them around then years ago...IMO
I know wolves get a lot of the heat, but maybe not all those kills people are running into are from them???
Pretty impressive photo's.

Life expectancy of a lion in the wild is up to a dozen years or so. So that equates to roughly 500 deer less in their lifetime.

[Timbow]

It's interesting that the antis seem to favour the grizzlies and wolves.

[Elkaholic]

I cant talk for that region, but here in the EK as soon as a cat gets the 110lbs range its dead. Cats take a beating in this region hard.

[Bugle M In]

I cant talk for that region, but here in the EK as soon as a cat gets the 110lbs range its dead. Cats take a beating in this region hard.

I am not going doubt what your saying, but up in the area I hunt for elk in the EK, I have seen more and more
cougars over the past 10 years, a couple even coming in to cow calls!
Cougars where something we never saw back in the 70's up there or even sign of...
Could be just a "phenomena" or just luck I suppose.
OR maybe just nobody hunting for cats in the area....
It's a reasonably unused area by hunters I suspect, as it isn't producing well for game anyways these days.
I can see other areas that would be hunted hard for cats up there however.

[Elkaholic]

I am not going doubt what your saying, but up in the area I hunt for elk in the EK, I have seen more and more
cougars over the past 10 years, a couple even coming in to cow calls!
Cougars where something we never saw back in the 70's up there or even sign of...
Could be just a "phenomena" or just luck I suppose.
OR maybe just nobody hunting for cats in the area....
It's a reasonably unused area by hunters I suspect, as it isn't producing well for game anyways these days.
I can see other areas that would be hunted hard for cats up there however.

You could find areas or pockets where they are able to hide out and not get ran, no doubt. But as soon as anything is in running country it gets run. Anything half decent gets shot. I would say bears black and grizz are the worst buggers around here along with wolves. Cougars take their share but a far smaller share than the other two IMO, well around here anyways.

[Bugle M In]

You could find areas or pockets where they are able to hide out and not get ran, no doubt. But as soon as anything is in running country it gets run. Anything half decent gets shot. I would say bears black and grizz are the worst buggers around here along with wolves. Cougars take their share but a far smaller share than the other two IMO, well around here anyways.

Absolutely, the numbers of Bears, both black and more so Grizzly, are way way up, at least from a
"sightings perspective" as well as sign (scat).
You just didn't see G bear at all while hunting Elk back 30 years ago.
And, if you checked the gutpile a day or 2 later, the only critters, for the most part, where wolves on that pile.
The odd time it was a bear cleaning up, and it was blackies usually then, but like I said, that was even rare.
But now, you have black bears being kicked off the pile by Gbear, and rarely see wolves on it.
So yes, I totally hear what you are saying.
As far as cats however, I did read that a few can become very efficient at targeting a certain species.
Example, one area was having high sheep mortality, and they couldn't understand why.
They knew that legal hunting could not have caused this.
They wondered if they had serious poaching going on, or if the sheep were just getting sick.
Turned out it was 1 cat that had figured out how to kill sheep, and was doing it none stop.

As for the EK, and elk, I can see that GBear may have a impact on elk in the spring, and again, some bears may be more "keyed in" to the source of easy prey.
Throw in more cats, and like I said, a few seem to be interested in cow calls now?
And then a winter long onslaught by wolves, which we all know, their populations are probably at an all time high.
(the wolves probably do most of the damage come winter for sure)
So the ungulates were hunting are definitely on high alert these days.
But I hear what others say to....habitat restoration, and more importantly habitat "conservation" are probably the
biggest concerns for the future of "all wildlife"....obviously.

[BigfishCanada]

I am not going doubt what your saying, but up in the area I hunt for elk in the EK, I have seen more and more
cougars over the past 10 years, a couple even coming in to cow calls!
Cougars where something we never saw back in the 70's up there or even sign of...
Could be just a "phenomena" or just luck I suppose.
OR maybe just nobody hunting for cats in the area....
It's a reasonably unused area by hunters I suspect, as it isn't producing well for game anyways these days.
I can see other areas that would be hunted hard for cats up there however.
Lots of cats in that area, big big ones, you need dogs to find usually

[scott h]

Very cool pics !! Thanks for sharing.

[Ourea]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCZ3C0GiQpU

[swampthing]

Relax buddy, I guess I chose the wrong title for you?
Just wanted folks to see the link.
And yes, that's what cats do, but, there do seem to be more of them around then years ago...IMO
I know wolves get a lot of the heat, but maybe not all those kills people are running into are from them???
Pretty impressive photo's.

Didn't mean to come off strong! I was just trying to understand your question? That would be a very cool thing to see! I grew up in that area and know it well.

[Fisher-Dude]

Some interesting studies on cougars and deer in the mule deer presentation last weekend.

Removing up to 1/3 of all the cats in a study area resulted in maybe 5% better fawn survival in the better cases. Average was 2.4% increased fawn survival, IIRC.

Habitat, habitat, habitat.

[Bugle M In]

Didn't mean to come off strong! I was just trying to understand your question? That would be a very cool thing to see! I grew up in that area and know it well.

All good.....hope the rest of the season goes well for ya....cheers.

[Bugle M In]

Some interesting studies on cougars and deer in the mule deer presentation last weekend.

Removing up to 1/3 of all the cats in a study area resulted in maybe 5% better fawn survival in the better cases. Average was 2.4% increased fawn survival, IIRC.

Habitat, habitat, habitat.

I get you....habitat is first and foremost, and all the things were doing to it in a negative way.
Only wish that the "anti Grizz hunting and anti hunting folks", for that matter, could get that thru their brains.
Those people just don't get it when you take the time to talk to them....it's just not getting thru.???
All they see is, gun goes up, gun goes bang, bear dies....and that's why bears are endangered/missing or whatever
it is their spewing.
Try to tell them that they are just as responsible for upheaval of mother earth, and "all it's inhabitants", and they
just don't want to hear it.....their agenda is to just ban hunting, and everything will be okay.

Somehow that has to be the argument back to them, that they create as much damage due to our "materialistic ways
of life".
That's the kind of commercials that we need to throw out there on facebook/twitter etc.

Question for that study....
Okay, fawn survival only improved 5% with 1/3 of cats removed....but thats counting fawns "Survival"?...right.
How do you determine "how many Does died"?...you know, the one's before they could have fawns.
That video didn't look like it was a fawn being taken down.
Just wondering how to look at this study...not disputing it....but it seems like they were only accounting for
fawns that were born, and how many were lost to cats.
But, how many Does died, that then could never have had fawns to count to begin with?

[caddisguy]

Some interesting studies on cougars and deer in the mule deer presentation last weekend.

Removing up to 1/3 of all the cats in a study area resulted in maybe 5% better fawn survival in the better cases. Average was 2.4% increased fawn survival, IIRC.

Habitat, habitat, habitat.

I recall reading that cougars typically go after spikes and does, rather than fawns or mature bucks. If that is true, we will not be able to measure the impact on deer based on fawn survival rate.

I believe the number was somewhere in the range of 30-40 deer per year per cat.

I'm 100% with you on habitat though.

[Ourea]

I recall reading that cougars typically go after spikes and does, rather than fawns or mature bucks. If that is true, we will not be able to measure the impact on deer based on fawn survival rate.

I believe the number was somewhere in the range of 30-40 deer per year per cat.

I'm 100% with you on habitat though.

Rutted out mature bucks get targeted by cats.
They are run down and weak.
Some serious big number bucks were cat kills.

[horshur]

Some interesting studies on cougars and deer in the mule deer presentation last weekend.

Removing up to 1/3 of all the cats in a study area resulted in maybe 5% better fawn survival in the better cases. Average was 2.4% increased fawn survival, IIRC.

Habitat, habitat, habitat.

post up the habitat stats....and what habitat they are making..and how long the change in habitat effects population..I am sure as an accountant your boss don't care about 5% going to the liberal feds.
How about killing 75% of the cats did that result in 15% survival of fawns?? What about adult mortality? Was there wolves in study area..I know the caribou guys sure would love to see 5%....What is 5% of 25000? How many mule deer are in BC?? What % of the deer herd do we harvest?? 2.5 percent is a lot!!! in the grand scheme of things.

[horshur]

I recall reading that cougars typically go after spikes and does, rather than fawns or mature bucks. If that is true, we will not be able to measure the impact on deer based on fawn survival rate.

I believe the number was somewhere in the range of 30-40 deer per year per cat.

I'm 100% with you on habitat though.

they kill fawns mostly period.........like the bears do to. So 2.5% here 5% there it adds up.

[Fisher-Dude]

When weather and summer feed can change fawn survival from 15% to 90% in a given year, a few percent from cats, and the 1% from dogs, really doesn't warrant the expense of large scale predator reduction for mule deer.

The compensation effect observed from predator reduction also showed that a decrease in predator kills of mule deer was most often offset by an increase in nutrition-related mortality.

That was the message delivered to people who showed up to get informed on the issue.

[horshur]

Hang on fish...you guys going to get some science....just the beginnings.

[Fisher-Dude]

Predator reduction for other species, like moose and elk, may have different outcomes.

Another presentation I was at illustrated that in 21 studies of predator reduction, only 1 resulted in a mule deer population increase.

Habitat is where it's at. And forbs are the single most important food source for mulies. Burn it. And if you log it, burn it afterward.

[Bugle M In]

I agree with burning it after the log it....not those little piddly piles they stack up here and there...but all of it on the ground.....just like a real forest fire.
And then maybe plant a little diversity in there, not just the one species for the whole block.

[Rob Chipman]

"Question for that study...."

Idaho did the study, removing press from some units and leaving others as control units. Mortality from predation did drop, but overall mortality stayed the same, or close enough to it that Idaho F&G decided it was stupid policy/waste of $$$ to target preds (full disclosure - this depends on me remembering it correctly, but FD can confirm or deny).

Also there was indications that cougars actually out-killed wolves by a pretty large margin, if I heard it correctly.

Prey mortality was pretty consistent in percentage terms (which makes sense from an evolution standpoint) but weather/nutrition related deaths were much more volatile. As FD indicates, precipitation in spring, and more important, fall, makes a big dif on the feed. A well fed doe going into the fall will likely winter better and drop a healthier fawn, leading to better survival odds for both.

It was an excellent presentation.

[caddisguy]

they kill fawns mostly period.........like the bears do to. So 2.5% here 5% there it adds up.

Your post encouraged me to look for the study that said mostly spikes and does. I never did find it, but all the others I read are on par with what you said. Fawns, yearlings and does with fawns are easy pickins.

I was surprised to read that they frequently take moose, elk and feral horses as well. I would have figured taking moose was a rare occurrence, but when available it makes up the majority of a toms diet.

Pretty amazing they can eat about 50lbs in a day and average 18 or so. Surprised I don't find cougar scat more often :D

[Rob Chipman]

"I was surprised to read that they frequently take moose, elk and feral horses as well."

I don't know how common this is, but I spent some time with a rancher in the Jesmond area who reported losing several foals to cougars. He had one horse survive that and it's got some pretty impressive scars. Apparently horses buck as an evolutionary response to cougars (and other cats) jumping on their backs. (That's the way i heard it, anyway!).

[mpotzold]

A lion will not tangle with a skunk.(posted this on another thread).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDGO1MTJIUE&feature=youtu.be



http://uploads.neatorama.com/images/posts/142/99/99142/1509735533-0.jpg

[horshur]

Your post encouraged me to look for the study that said mostly spikes and does. I never did find it, but all the others I read are on par with what you said. Fawns, yearlings and does with fawns are easy pickins.

I was surprised to read that they frequently take moose, elk and feral horses as well. I would have figured taking moose was a rare occurrence, but when available it makes up the majority of a toms diet.

Pretty amazing they can eat about 50lbs in a day and average 18 or so. Surprised I don't find cougar scat more often :D

cougar are never really common and for the most part they are compensatory...meaning the predation is number of animals that would have died anyway...but they can be additive meaning more killed then would have by other limiting factors...it is ludicrous to suggest they have no effect as a large carnivore..and in some populations they can extirpate a population. When wolves have reduced primary prey to desperate levels they will switch and the 1% will increase significantly. In Idaho primary prey is Elk. BC it has been Moose..until recently...

[horshur]

Where mule deer have been common historically is not necessarily where they would be common without human interference...The natural habitat that sustains a population is limited. Much more limited then what has been expected. So either we manipulate or deal with less.

[boblly1]

they are no different than any other predator. They get their share of ungulates and deserve 160 grains of respect just like the other predators just saying