Alberta Bow Association Allocation Policy Survey

[IronNoggin]

It appears the ABA has decided they are in the business of managing hunting programs over there :shock:

They have a new survey out, wherein they propose:

- Doing away with Landowner Tags for Mule Deer

This program has been effective in keeping gates open for other hunters, rewarding landowners for maintaining wildlife habitat, and helping keep crop depredations down a little. The vast majority of landowners I know over there very much like the program, and will be ticked off if it disappears. On the surface, it would seem the ABA desires the 1200 tags be returned to the general hunting fold.

- Doing away with Non-Resident Canadian access to special draws (LEH)

This one personally effects me, and a lot of other hunters I know. We spend a good chunk of change over there every time we draw, and our impact is not very significant (300 tags overall!). Will 300 tags make any real difference to the success rates for Alberta only? Or is this simply sour grapes or greed??

- Create a Special Draw for Archery Seasons

Obviously self serving. This has in fact been done for most western Mule Deer WMU's, leaving those to the east still general tag. That has had the undesirable effect of concentrating increasing numbers of bow hunters into the remaining general season areas. While they suggest this will be a potential solution to increase opportunity for bowhunters while reducing competition in the special license draw, many simply see it as a self-serving mechanism that will direct more tags in the direction of archery hunting (taking them away from rifle hunters).

There follows a series of questions and suggestions focused on the Outfitter Guide operations over there, and how to deal with them.

The survey is open to any one, however their final question will separate out the answers from those who are not an ABA member.

I strongly suggest anyone with an interest in hunting in Alberta give consideration to filling out the survey.
Your future hunting efforts may well be effected by the eventual findings.

Survey can be found on this page under the link Very Important SURVEY: http://www.bowhunters.ca/

Apparently the results will form the draft of an Allocation Policy that will then be put out to the general public for comment, then final review and possible acceptance by the AEP minister. I will try to keep my finger on the pulse, and report back findings as this develops...

Ticked,
Nog

[604redneck]

Thats a crock of shit. No one group should get special privileges. Doesnt matter if you are bow hunter, rifle hunter, quad hunter, horseback hunter. Only focus should be ensuring plenty of game for every group to enjoy!

[IronNoggin]

The sense of self-entitlement among the ABA runs strong...

Some will agree with them. Especially those among the protectionist Me First camp. Fits well with the vast majority of the personalities I have met from the ABA...

Regarding the removal of the NR draws - For those that like this idea, all you are doing is taking away the ability to hunt with family and friends, to hunt together, for the sake of scapegoating and greed. NR Hunter Hosted licenses account for less than 2% of special licenses issued.
This will do Nothing to help resident opportunity.

In the case of the recommendation to establish a new archery allocation and archery exclusive draw, this is being done to directly limit hunter participation. The ABA noted in private their concern that there are now too many bowhunters, and that their ranks are swelling every single year.
The recommendation is directly intended to exclude those who are not as serious as others (ABA membership).

The other thing they fail to mention in their proposal is that those tags will have to come from somewhere. The so-called management authority there is apparently not in the business of creating additional habitat nor wildlife numbers. All they do is further restrict access every time a change is being made. The rifle hunters who were hoping to draw that special tag in any zones this is implemented WILL be waiting a few extra years to do so. For the tags the ABA want for their exclusive club draw will come from the general Special License pool, further limiting the possibilities of any individual drawing within a reasonable period of time.

Self serving obviously, guess since they are being duplicitous throughout their "survey" it should not be surprising they are not willing to be truthful regarding their intent in this matter either...

In the case of landowner tags - taking those away from the very folks that grow and feed wildlife is a fool's errand. Watch just how fast those No Hunting signs come up in response in many many areas.

Eliminating NR hunter host special licenses, making NR use a resident's tag, and removing less "serious" bowhunters hunters from the archery draw are ALL in the direction of exclusion and limiting opportunity. Period. Very poor practices for a supposed management authority to support. Hunter restrictions rather than game / habitat management. Sad. One can hope that there is a level head or two at the table when it comes down to decision time...

Never thought I would live long enough to see such self-centered greed and sour grapes becoming the focus of so called wildlife management in Canada. Sad days...

Nog

[gab]

Thanks for posting this! I filled out the survey. I just got back from a successful Alberta antelope hunt; most years I make a trip to Alberta to hunt moose and deer with family members and spends lots of money in the process. I guess some people do not care about the economic benefits.

[IronNoggin]

Thanks Gab, Appreciated!

I am in the process of drafting a letter to the relevant Minister over there.
Will post that once I've fired it off.

Let's hope saner heads prevail in this matter...

Cheers.

PS: Let's see the antelope pix!! :biggrin:

Cheers!

[Wild one]

I don't agree with a lot that has come out of the ABA in the last few years but I will give them this they are active and offen achieve results. Sadly they have succeeded in getting things to pass that myself and many others view negative

if only they they pushed better agendas

Give them hell Nog

[fuzzybiscuit]

Am I reading it wrong or would you not still be able to hunt with family and friends for anything that is on a general tag? Just draws would be out for a non-resident Canadian.

Is this not the way it is for an Alberta resident that wants to come to BC to hunt with family and friends? I'd sure like the option of putting in for the Roosevelt lottery each year. 27 years for me and I never did get one.

For the record, I don't agree with what the ABA is proposing as they are only looking out for their interests.

[IronNoggin]

Am I reading it wrong or would you not still be able to hunt with family and friends for anything that is on a general tag? Just draws would be out for a non-resident Canadian.

More or less correct.
But then figure this into the equation - Those of us who like to bow hunt will now see that pursuit go to draw if these Idjuts get their way.
And, again, NR Canadians who have hunted with a bow over there for decades will now be cut out of the loop as they will no longer be allowed to apply for the draw. :-(


For the record, I don't agree with what the ABA is proposing as they are only looking out for their interests.

That is downright for certain! The more I learn about them, the more I have this feeling of distaste towards them.
Had it with this action...
Pulling out the stops. Bringing my my rancher and outfitter buddies over there.
Yes, we are coming. And HELL is coming with! :evil:

Cheers,
Nog

[sheephunterab]

If I'm not mistaken there would still be general archery tags but that in current draws there be separate rifle and bow draws/seasons rather than just one all weapon draw. This done currently with antelope although with their proposal I don't believe you could apply for both weapons as is currently the case with antelope. Basically you'd have to choose your weapon for hunts that are on draw but not for general tags.

I suspect there are a lot of rifle hunters on side with keeping Non Residents out of the draws as well...basically identical as to what's done in BC.

[Walking Buffalo]

As I explained on the Alberta Outdoorsmen forum.

This is NOT a survey of ABA recommendations.

This is a survey of recommended policy changes from AGPAC (Alberta Game Policy Advisory Group), a provincial consultation working group.

The stakeholders such as ABA, APOS (Outfitters) and AFGA (Fish and game association) have ALL been asked to bring this AGPAC survey to their membership, results will be reviewed by AGPAC before writing a final draft of Allocation Policy changes that will then go to the general public for comment.



While I DISAGREE with the proposed change to NR being excluded from participating in the draws,

This is what BC is already doing to NR hunters....


Where is the effort to have BC be more like Alberta in allowing NR participation in LEH hunts?

It is a shame that individual jurisdictions seem to only like making access to hunting more restrictive and exclusive....

[guest]

Well said WBuffalo.
that said, personally, I'd like to see Canadian residents be included in some BCDraws, but, that said would like to see all, non native to Canada have to put big cash down and enter a draw, then have to hire prospected guide. Shite, if these guys can take any bull moose elk or ram or Billy away from us, they can dam well afford to apply first with big money down first.
In any case, residents be it BC Alberta Sask etc should ALWAYS come first. Critters should not be for corporate greed specially to GOs that are Foreighn owned, most of the big money leaves the province in this case, bet the take on a $50,000 dollar Ram..... Be interesting to see but I bet dam near 80% leaves our country, it's just taking from the resident, and just making Big Money Tom from Germany or Texas even richer. What a joke! Mind you, most of our politicians have a habit of selling off their own offspring to benefit their pension rather then the actual residents, or small family run GOs that have already been long time residents. No GOs in my opinion should be foriegn owned.

[fuzzybiscuit]

Well said WBuffalo.
that said, personally, I'd like to see Canadian residents be included in some BCDraws, but, that said would like to see all, non native to Canada and BC have to put big cash down and enter a draw, then have to hire prospected guide. Shite, if these guys can take any bull moose elk or ram or Billy away from us, they can dam well afford to apply first with big money down first.


So you would be ok with having to put big money down to enter a LEH draw then have to hire a guide if you were successful in being awarded the draw in Alberta? I'm thinking that most the BC hunters that presently put in for AB draws would not be happy if things went that way. I would also think most would not be happy if the rules for draws were the same in AB as they are in BC.

As far as the Alberta/BC thing is in regards to LEH draws there is no doubt that BC residents are presently getting the better deal. A BC resident can put in for any AB draw and all you need to do is have a hunter host to go hunting with.

A AB resident cannot put in for any BC LEH draw. With a hunter host an AB resident can hunt general seasons by just purchasing a tag but believe me they do pay for it although it is compatible when a BC resident goes to purchase tags in AB. $75 for the licence and $125 for a tag in the case of hunting Blacktails when I go back on the Island to hunt with my dad. Plus the hunter host fee.

"You can't have your cake and eat it too" doesn't seem to apply to BC residents in this case. You're getting both presently.

[guest]

No I said non native to Canada, yanks, and others round the world that pull a ram Billy or bull out from underneath you can come here ANY time at present and do just that...... And most the cash leaves here. Corporate greed. The hunting going to the rich, like Europe. Residents First always

didnt mean for the confusion

[Walking Buffalo]

To Noggin's OP

You brought up three of the survey's questions.

While ALL of the issues addressed were brought to the table by the Government for discussion, the individual issues certainly were highlighted by specific stakeholders.

1. Removal of NR from special licence hunts.

This was most likely brought up to the government by the Outfitters (APOS).

This was brought up before by APOS, concerns defending the change included eliminating any potential illegal guiding through the Hunter Host system, with a byproduct of increasing their potential market.

With APOS facing some loss of market under other recommendations, I suspect this was thrown in as a bone to pacify the outcry from APOS.

2. Archery Only Allocations with separate draws.

The ABA has been lobbying for this since before there were archery only draws.
The current president of the ABA told me personally that in his opinion, there are TOO MANY Bowhunters.
In an effort to eliminate "less serious" bowhunters and to reward "more serious" bowhunters, the concept of having an exclusive Archery allocation and draw is desired to have the effect of reducing the number of hunters that participate in the Archery season.

3. Landowner Licences.

Several years ago I personally was the first to obtain and publicly disseminated the number of Landowner Licences being issued.
Many heads were turned....

Keep in mind that the proposal applies ONLY to Antlered Mule Deer. Antlerless Mule Deer, Antlerless Elk and a few Antlered Elk Landowner Licences are not to be effected by this proposed change.

This program was destined for failure upon conception. There was no hard cap to the number of Landowner licences issued, and these licences were to come from the Resident allocation. In effect, when a management unit faced more restrictive Resident allocations, more landowners would apply for a Landowner licence, which made for fewer Resident licences, which made for more landowners applying for a Landowner licence.... by flawed policy to infinity...

Many management areas now have over 50% of Resident licences going to Landowners, and the problem is quickly getting worse.

There is an absolute need to change the Landowner licence program.

I have absolutley NO concern that eliminating or reducing (implementing a hard cap on % of licences issued) the Landowner Licence program will effect the public's access to hunt.
Many Landowners that receive these licences already DO NOT allow access.
Others do. These are the ones that may change their mind and effect a reduction in public access. Yet the number will be small as most of this group are of a mindset that they are fine with sharing, giving the public access, even if they have to wait their turn.

[IronNoggin]

If I'm not mistaken there would still be general archery tags but that in current draws there be separate rifle and bow draws/seasons rather than just one all weapon draw...

You're missing some of it. Their intent is to make any zone where archery gets close to 15% of harvest a draw for that species. General archery tags will NO LONGER APPLY in many WMU's, for many species as a consequence.
Back to the NR Canadian not being allowed to enter the draws...
You have now effectively excluded those NR Canadian archers from hunting that species in that zone.

BTW: NR Canadians are already excluded from archery antelope draws.


... This is a survey of recommended policy changes from AGPAC (Alberta Game Policy Advisory Group), a provincial consultation working group.

And as I noted, RE-WRITTEN (rather poorly btw) by the ABA. Not much of a leap to consider they did so to sway the answers towards their own agenda...


As far as the Alberta/BC thing is in regards to LEH draws there is no doubt that BC residents are presently getting the better deal. A BC resident can put in for any AB draw and all you need to do is have a hunter host to go hunting with.

This is true with regards to BC residents (actually any resident of Canada) being on the better end of things.
I do not know how to go about addressing such a matter here in BC.
That said, we often note that BC has the most generous General Seasons of any, and of course NR Canadians are free to hunt pretty well any of these with a hunter host. The same is not true (and becoming more restrictive each passing season) in Alberta. There the tendency has been, and continues to be towards ever increasing draw seasons rather than general. Tough one to consider...

Btw: BC residents cannot simply put in for "any" draw. There are already a handful set aside for Alberta Residents Only.


To Noggin's OP

Many Thanks for chiming in here WB! I was hoping you would!! http://bigshotsbc.ca/images/smilies/Pozitive.gif

I was unaware of the APOS influence regarding eliminating NR Canadian access to draws. Thank you for clarifying that matter. I will have to revise the letter I am drafting to your Minister...

I have been aware of the ABA's position that there are too many bowhunters for some time now.
Strikes me as odd that they are now willing to throw those they supposedly represent under the bus in order to protect and preserve what they desire for themselves. Still smacks of greed and spite IMO.

I would also like to thank you for addressing the landowner tag issue. I have only heard from the landowner point of view, so obviously my understanding was biased. With what you note here, I too would be supportive of a cap (%) on those tags thus affected.

Again, Thank You for your informed input! I for one very much appreciate it.

Cheers,
Nog

[sheephunterab]

You're missing some of it. Their intent is to make any zone where archery gets close to 15% of harvest a draw for that species. General archery tags will NO LONGER APPLY in many WMU's, for many species as a consequence.

That's actually the government's intent...not the ABA's. Not sure what I'm missing here.

[sheephunterab]

I was unaware of the APOS influence regarding eliminating NR Canadian access to draws. Thank you for clarifying that matter. I will have to revise the letter I am drafting to your Minister... I seriously doubt APOS is driving this change. The truth is that residents are getting fed up with ever increasing wait times in the draws and are looking for ways to relieve some of the pressure. No doubt APOS wouldn't oppose the change but they really wouldn't stand to gain a lot. Their Canadian clientele is very small.

[Walking Buffalo]

That's actually the government's intent...not the ABA's. Not sure what I'm missing here.

While the government brought these concerns to the table, as Only government submitted concerns were allowed to be discussed,
the concerns were mainly influenced by various public groups.
Without question the archery allocation and separate draw issue is only being addressed due to pressure from the ABA, which is fair.


I seriously doubt APOS is driving this change. The truth is that residents are getting fed up with ever increasing wait times in the draws and are looking for ways to relieve some of the pressure. No doubt APOS wouldn't oppose the change but they really wouldn't stand to gain a lot. Their Canadian clientele is very small.

Which is why I suggested that this is a bone, a dry bone that is basically just a pacifier.

APOS has pushed for the elimination of the Hunter Host system for years. It is not a big deal to them, but will make a good toothpick.

Who else would have made the call to eliminate NR from the draw? AFGA? ABA? If not APOS, where did this come from?
Did the government itself table a recommendation to eliminate NRs in the draw when no one was asking for it?

NR applications and licences in the draw system account for less than 2% of the total.
This change would not have any effect on the concern. It is a smokescreen.

[sheephunterab]

Walking Buff...you'd have to be deaf not to hear the outcry from resident hunters right now about increased wait times and the amount of non residents in the draw system. It's the same frustration driving the desire for change to landowner tags. Always fun to blame APOS though!

I agree the separate archery season is ABA but the 15% cap is not as I said above.

[Wild one]

I can understand doing away with non resident draws. Try to put non residents in the same draw pool here in BC and see the crying start

[Walking Buffalo]

Walking Buff...you'd have to be deaf not to hear the outcry from resident hunters right now about increased wait times and the amount of non residents in the draw system. It's the same frustration driving the desire for change to landowner tags. Always fun to blame APOS though!

I agree the separate archery season is ABA but the 15% cap is not as I said above.


And almost all of those Residents crying have no idea what the actual numbers are.
This is a boogeyman that the government have allowed to become real.

Hmmm... I outed APOS, the ABA and to a degree, even myself. Always fun to blame myself. ;)

I simply pointed the finger in the direction of where the concern came from, not picking on anyone in particular.
Even with AGPAC attempting to keep these discussions on the very down low, without a paper trail, the pressure is high enough that there are some leaks.


If you know that I am wrong about APOS on this, then I'll ask again, Who made this a "high priority" concern....? AFGA? ABA? The Gov?

[sheephunterab]

I honestly don't know nor do you but I do know for certain that the Government has been getting an earful from residents so likely the government themselves.

[guest]

I can understand doing away with non resident draws. Try to put non residents in the same draw pool here in BC and see the crying start


Yup, residents should always come first, and in this case Alberta residents. A hunter host program with application fee on LEH for non res maybe priority based.

[IronNoggin]

... A hunter host program with application fee on LEH for non res maybe priority based.

Ummm... That is pretty much exactly what exists now. :wink:

As WB and myself have noted, putting the less than 2 % of NR Canadian draw tags back into the resident pool will make zero difference on resident draw rates. Smoke & Mirrors...

Nog

[sheephunterab]

Ummm... That is pretty much exactly what exists now. :wink:

As WB and myself have noted, putting the less than 2 % of NR Canadian draw tags back into the resident pool will make zero difference on resident draw rates. Smoke & Mirrors...

Nog

I won't argue with you there but residents are demanding something be done and these are easy things to do. I suspect the NR draw will be replaced with a partner licence so NRs will still be able to enjoy the opportunity if they can find a resident willing to give up a tag.

[IronNoggin]

I won't argue with you there but residents are demanding something be done and these are easy things to do. I suspect the NR draw will be replaced with a partner licence so NRs will still be able to enjoy the opportunity if they can find a resident willing to give up a tag.

And to think at one point I was actually lobbying for the possibility of Non Res Canadians (Albertans) to get in on BC draws instead of the "have to use an outfitter" rule that is current. Guess I will let that slide now...

Be a damn foolish move for Alberta if you ask me - an increase in a whopping less than 2% of the draw tags, and delivering a handful of spite with that. Bizarre.

Letters to their Minister and Premier sent. More to follow. Survey still open btw... http://www.bowhunters.ca/

Nog

[bowshot]

Hey Iron, the Alberta Fish and Game has a link too, give them a blast at least as equal as your rant against the ABA. That one is still entertaining. In fact, all the members of the committee should have links available if their organization has the capability.

[IronNoggin]

Hey Iron, the Alberta Fish and Game has a link too...

Post it up then.

The ABA was first out of the gate with this crap, and did such a crappy job of re-wording the survey it appears to have been done by a brain dead grade 6 drop out. They deserve the rant IMHO...

Not who you suggested, but it does appear Survey Monkey has picked up the torch: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/VZD78H2

You have other links to the same, please share.

Thanks,
Nog

[Mule Buck]

Yup, residents should always come first, and in this case Alberta residents. A hunter host program with application fee on LEH for non res maybe priority based.
Residents first. Hard to look a new resident hunter in the face and tell him he'll never shoot an Alberta trophy pronghorn. Yet there are non residents hunting them...

[Wild one]

Non resident draws how Alberta runs non resident sheep draws is a good system. Would be nice to have something like this for non resident hunters here in BC

Having resident and non resident hunters in the same draw pool I can understand a resident hunters frustration. Having a small number of tags available in a separate draw pool is something I would say is a good thing though

[guest]

Agree with you. I'd love to hunt a Alta. WT or Speed Goat, or Sask MD ...... But their residents should come first.

Yet here in our BC past Gov..... The Libs gave the green light to Any rich folk to be able to come here, pay huge bucks and screw over the residents opportunity on its LEH chances. Even on Moose, Elk, Sheep and Goat. Eg. Island Rosie Elk, has gone to 25 % allocation to GOs which most BC residents can't afford the $25,000.00 for. Sheep, up to 40 %. The Stab in the back still hurts.

[Wild one]

Agree with you. I'd love to hunt a Alta. WT or Speed Goat, or Sask MD ...... But their residents should come first.

Yet here in our BC past Gov..... The Libs gave the green light to Any rich folk to be able to come here, pay huge bucks and screw over the residents opportunity on its LEH chances. Even on Moose, Elk, Sheep and Goat. Eg. Island Rosie Elk, has gone to 25 % allocation to GOs which most BC residents can't afford the $25,000.00 for. Sheep, up to 40 %. The Stab in the back still hurts.

alberta GOs have a quota just like BC GOs

This draw issue in Alberta is not GO related. You apply and hunt with a resident host not a guide

way different issue