Is This is a Spike Fork Bull Moose?

[DeepJeep]

So "no more than 2 tines on one side" - definition of spike fork bull moose.

If you saw this in the field, would you shoot or pass? I am not sure if that protruding tine is less than an inch.


http://i64.tinypic.com/b7ewyd.jpg

[Fisher-Dude]

If you saw this in the field, would you shoot or pass? I am not sure if that protruding tine is less than an inch.


You answered your own question.

If you're not sure, don't shoot. Period.

I've let quite a few bulls walk away that had questionable 3rd points. A few I'm 95% sure were legal, but that 5% doubt kept me from dropping the hammer. I have no regrets, and do have the satisfaction of sharing an exciting story with friends around the campfire on each encounter.

[Huevos]

I doubt that that nub is a full inch. That being said, I wouldn't take that chance. I'd let it pass, even though I think its legal.

[DeepJeep]

I would pass for sure.

Just wanted others' opinion...

[Ltbullken]

I would say yes. The left antler has has 3 legal tines on it, but the right antler looks to have only 2 legal tines. That small bump wouldn't meet the legal definition of a 'tine' according to the regs (see pg. 5 of the Regs). He looks tasty legal!!

[Fisher-Dude]

I would say yes. The left antler has has 3 legal tines on it, but the right antler looks to have only 2 legal tines. That small bump wouldn't meet the legal definition of a 'tine' according to the regs (see pg. 5 of the Regs). He looks tasty legal!!

Moose are huge. 1 inch is tiny. Perspective is difficult on a pic like that.

It probably isn't a tine. The only thing for sure is that bull would be, as you say, very delicious.

[tinhorse]

A tine must be longer than it is wide. From that I would say it is a shooter. Now in the field with it moving could you judge that??? from the picture it is a shooter, in the field I would pass...

[nazarow]

A tine must be longer than it is wide. From that I would say it is a shooter. Now in the field with it moving could you judge that??? from the picture it is a shooter, in the field I would pass...

Agree. In the field would pass but in the photo it's legal.

[BCBRAD]

That little bump on the moose's right side must not be more than an inch long as measured in the synopsis.

From the picture,which is a good one, I fur sure can't say if it is +/- an inch, however, the antlers fall within the intent of the regulation. That being a yearling/non-breeder.

The conservation officer will undoubtedly measure and if it is 1.1" by his/her measure you are fooked. Sure the officer has the law behind him/her and does not have to apply any reasoning to it......just right you up for $$$, they may confiscate the animal (if in an ambitious mood) or just take you money and dignity.

The regulation , in my opinion, should reflect the reality. Which is this 'tine' is immeasurable on a living/conscious animal.

Better yet set the 3rd tine length that can be measured in the field on a living animal , either by eye or an eye aided by an optic, the length being readily discerned. The length would be set by field testing by several different testers to get an average.

Much better for the animal, as a pass would be easily determined. Also, the officer should be able to make a decision to allow even if the tine length is a bit over.

[Whonnock Boy]

Tough to tell on that angle, but it really doesn't look like that "tine" is any where near longer than its breadth, and not being longer than it's breadth means it is not a point regardless of its length.

[Whonnock Boy]

Tine or "Point" - means a branch of anantler which is longer than its breadth and is atleast 2.5 cm in length, and for the purpose ofdetermining the length of a tine(a) the breadth of the tine is measured (ifextending from a palmation of an antler, then inthe plane of the palm) at a location at least 2.5cm from the tip of the tine, and(b) the length of the tine is measured from itstip end, following the midline of the profile ofthe tine, and following the natural curvatureof the tine, to the midpoint of the straight linealong which the breadth is measured. (SeeHow to Measure a Tine diagram below)

[BCBRAD]

Tine or "Point" - means a branch of anantler which is longer than its breadth and is atleast 2.5 cm in length, and for the purpose ofdetermining the length of a tine(a) the breadth of the tine is measured (ifextending from a palmation of an antler, then inthe plane of the palm) at a location at least 2.5cm from the tip of the tine, and(b) the length of the tine is measured from itstip end, following the midline of the profile ofthe tine, and following the natural curvatureof the tine, to the midpoint of the straight linealong which the breadth is measured. (SeeHow to Measure a Tine diagram below)

Can you (not personally but any hunter) make an accurate assessment at 50 feet let alone 50 yards? You have 5 seconds to decide!

[Whonnock Boy]

5 seconds? Doubtful. Through trees, on a run, at 50 yards, 5 seconds. Not a chance. Lots of time, and depending on the available optics? Pretty good chance.
Can you (not personally but any hunter) make an accurate assessment at 50 feet let alone 50 yards? You have 5 seconds to decide!

[nazarow]

Can you (not personally but any hunter) make an accurate assessment at 50 feet let alone 50 yards? You have 5 seconds to decide!

I would definitely pass in the field even if I had many seconds of that moose standing still with my binoculars.

[Huevos]

funny thing angles are. Yesterday I went berry picking with the kids. On the way home, I ran into a moose on the fsr. After a short moment of panic, I collected my composure, got out the binos and looked at this bull for a good minute or so. I couldn't believe my eyes as he appeared to be a fork on one side. After another 30 seconds, he turned so he wasn't facing me directly. Turns out he had 4 points on that side! take your time, be sure, and don't jump to conclusions too fast. It never even crossed my mind whether any of those points met the legal defenition. I love hunting too much to take a chance on something like that. if it looks like a point, it is! On the bright side my kids were pumped to see a moose so close.

[BCBRAD]

5 seconds? Doubtful. Through trees, on a run, at 50 yards, 5 seconds. Not a chance. Lots of time, and depending on the available optics? Pretty good chance.

The regulation promotes gambling on a 1/10th of an inch even with lots of time and good optics in good conditions.
Other species can be determined readily with average scrutiny. So if there is 3 discernible tines on one side (and this could be the whole issue here) might be better better to pass as the 1.1" "tine" on the other could put you in non-compliance.

[hunter1947]

If me I would pass on this young bull

[Whonnock Boy]

The initial point to my post was the "breadth" on that "tine" is probably 3 inches long, and the tine is no where near that long. In the field based on that angle only, I would not attempt to harvest that animal based on a spike fork regulation.

[moosinaround]

In that picture, as the regulations read, I would not interpret that bump as a tine. If I had a view such as the one in the picture, I would dump that tasty critter over. Now if it was a fuzzier sight picture, and I didn't have the time to get a really good look at it, I would pass. I have seen 2 such spike fork moose harvested like that picture, and they both did not meet the regulation measurements of a tine. I have seen one where it was exacltly an inch give or take a 1/16, and the CO actually let it go, as it the hunter and the CO argued over where the widest part of the tine was, like we are talking close close! Moosin

[srupp]

No hmmmmming" about it..

BANG FLOP..

cheers

Steven

[Ltbullken]

That little bump on the moose's right side must not be more than an inch long as measured in the synopsis.

From the picture,which is a good one, I fur sure can't say if it is +/- an inch, however, the antlers fall within the intent of the regulation. That being a yearling/non-breeder.

The conservation officer will undoubtedly measure and if it is 1.1" by his/her measure you are fooked. Sure the officer has the law behind him/her and does not have to apply any reasoning to it......just right you up for $$$, they may confiscate the animal (if in an ambitious mood) or just take you money and dignity.

The regulation , in my opinion, should reflect the reality. Which is this 'tine' is immeasurable on a living/conscious animal.

Better yet set the 3rd tine length that can be measured in the field on a living animal , either by eye or an eye aided by an optic, the length being readily discerned. The length would be set by field testing by several different testers to get an average.

Much better for the animal, as a pass would be easily determined. Also, the officer should be able to make a decision to allow even if the tine length is a bit over.

The definition of a tine is a little more detailed than as you describe. Read the Regs on definition of a tine.

[srupp]

No hmmmmming" about it..

BANG FLOP..for me Personaly. .if your not sure don't shoot..not going to be better photo. .tip against white snow..

cheers

Steven

[buckshot]

That's a legal animal. No questions, I would take it!

[DeepJeep]

I was just trying to get some practise via google. lol...
googled spike fork moose and tried to test myself.
I would pass but like others have mentioned, it is probably legal.

[VFX_man]

Using a [in theory] "known" - a moose's eye is 40mm/4cm/1.57 inches. So would be legal based on using the eye as a guide . . .

[DeepJeep]

^^ good perspective.

[BRvalley]

if you had as clear a view in the field as you do in that picture, no question he's a shooter imo

the eyeballs on the moose I've shot have measured roughly 4-4.5cm in diameter, I've also read an adult moose eyeball is up to 2"/5cm diameter...given that you don't see the full diameter of an intact eye, roughly 1/2 to 2/3, I use the eye ball as a reference to size up questionable tines in the field....if it's roughly same length, legal point provided it meets the rest of the criteria...if it's clearly under, as in the original photo, not a legal point

5 seconds to make the call, I wouldn't shoot...but most of my harvested big game animals I've watched for several minutes or longer before shooting, my first spike fork I watched for 20 mins before I was confident to pull the trigger....I really don't think spike forks are the unicorns many claim them to be (at least not in 7a/b, maybe areas with poor calf recruitment), when you start glassing every single cow you see, they often sprout tiny spikes very fast lol

[BRvalley]

Using a [in theory] "known" - a moose's eye is 40mm/4cm/1.57 inches. So would be legal based on using the eye as a guide . . .

beat me to it, good method to field judge

[Fisher-Dude]

The "breadth" of the tine in that photo is deceiving.

Look more closely, and you'll see what looks to be the edge of the antler is actually part of his right ear.

It's not as wide as first glance makes it appear...

That's why you have to watch for a long time, with good optics, and allow the moose to turn his head for different angles.

I had a similar scenario to the one mentioned above, where what looked like a 2 point at first glance was actually a 4 point when a new angle was presented.

[BCBRAD]

The definition of a tine is a little more detailed than as you describe. Read the Regs on definition of a tine.

Fully aware of the criteria that makes up a tine, on a moose. The point is 1/10th of an inch can put you in non-compliance. Most can not make that visual measurement with 100% certainty.

The issue is when there is 3 tines on one side and 2 on the other, the tine by regulation may not be seen or determined to be 0.9".

So over the years I have probably passed on a legal animal, just to avoid the
BallShit of 1/10th of an inch.

However, I have taken many yearling bulls under a big bull tag, some were 3x3, some 2 one side small palmation on the other, some were 3x2 and the sticker which were more than an inch by a bit or under.

[JIL_24/7]

I zoomed way in on that photo and the ear is not contributing to the visible thickness of that "tine" in question in my opinion. If given the time to observe this animal from this vantage point I would shoot it. My first thought is that the better argument is not whether the "tine" is 1" it is whether or not it is a "tine" at all. My feeling is that it does not meet the definition of a tine, and to top it all off I do not believe it is more than an inch anyway. I may be of the minority here, but I don't actually think this is as borderline as has been made out. This is all theory of course and being in the field might change my mind, but from behind a keyboard and monitor that's a shooter lol.

[BCBRAD]

I zoomed way in on that photo and the ear is not contributing to the visible thickness of that "tine" in question in my opinion. If given the time to observe this animal from this vantage point I would shoot it. My first thought is that the better argument is not whether the "tine" is 1" it is whether or not it is a "tine" at all. My feeling is that it does not meet the definition of a tine, and to top it all off I do not believe it is more than an inch anyway. I may be of the minority here, but I don't actually think this is as borderline as has been made out. This is all theory of course and being in the field might change my mind, but from behind a keyboard and monitor that's a shooter lol.

Here's the problem.......you don't get to do the measurement that puts you in non-compliance. The authorities will measure with a tape measure, you only have a field reference as has been stated by others.

Not a good way to determine the intent of the regulation.

[Mckinney Creek Adventures]

These are the types of scenarios that convinced me to put my $$ into good glass. I purchased a high end pair of binos several years ago after a few scenarios where I passed on an animal I could not ID. A hunter spends so much time out in the field for these rare opportunities the best thing you can do is outfit yourself with high end glass. Best $3000 I have ever spent on hunting gear. Better spent money than the latest greatest camo or a dozen game cameras or fancy shooting rig or some other gimmick the fancy big box hunting stores put on a pedestal these day. Buy good glass. It's allowed me to make the call on a few animals now and made my decision easier not to shoot as well. MY 0.02$!

[Ajsawden]

I grew up on the island where counting points is not important except for bragging rights. Then started hunting mule deer where you need at least 4 points (which has lead to some stressful tag soups). Seeing this picture, this is what my spike/fork moose nightmares are made of. Now you need to count a maximum two points. I am familiar with points, and the legal definition of tines, and I totally agree that this moose is a shooter. I suspect if I saw this in the field it would get to walk. It might be different if I actually planned to go hunting spike/forks. If I was planning on going on a spike/fork hunt, I might study a little and get a little more confident with antler configurations and what not.

[VFX_man]

These are the types of scenarios that convinced me to put my $$ into good glass. I purchased a high end pair of binos several years ago after a few scenarios where I passed on an animal I could not ID. A hunter spends so much time out in the field for these rare opportunities the best thing you can do is outfit yourself with high end glass. Best $3000 I have ever spent on hunting gear. Better spent money than the latest greatest camo or a dozen game cameras or fancy shooting rig or some other gimmick the fancy big box hunting stores put on a pedestal these day. Buy good glass. It's allowed me to make the call on a few animals now and made my decision easier not to shoot as well. MY 0.02$!

I drag my Canon 5d along sometimes. I've got a 400mm lense on it and with the extender it pushes it to 560mm and has image stabilization built in. It gives a lot of detail to review quickly, but I don't tend to drag it into the deep bush. With a still photo, it gives you more stability and confidence to analyze. Good glass is important!

Had a case 2 years ago on Nov. 1st, the day AFTER any buck. I knew it was legal 4 point, but it would not move from behind the lone tree in the cut and was broadside. Didn't take the shot, after 10 min, it flipped and hopped into the treeline - yep a large 4x4. Oh well.

[wos]

Didn't read any of the thread but pull the trigger 100%

[kgs]

NO its not

[landphil]

If I had a view like that, as still and clear as shown in the photo, I'd pass.








Because spike-fork season ain't open on September 7th 'round here. :D

[landphil]

NO its not

A bit vague, no?

[canucks6]

Boom dead moose.

[Linksman313]

The regulation , in my opinion, should reflect the reality. Which is this 'tine' is immeasurable on a living/conscious animal.

Better yet set the 3rd tine length that can be measured in the field on a living animal , either by eye or an eye aided by an optic, the length being readily discerned. The length would be set by field testing by several different testers to get an average.


Opinion seconded, this is the only logical solution to the "spike fork" uncertainty.

As far as the pic, i would pass

[Elkchaser]

Straight pass for me. I'm always conservative. That said have passed many 5 pt elk that had similar small tine. When it's that close I just enjoy the time I have with said animal and tell them it's their luckiest day ever. Wildlife infractions aren't good ever and I recommend staying off "the database". If your confident it's legal go for it. I never want to leave anything up to somebody else's interpretation. To me it means I did things well, was in the right place and can hunt more to fill that tag.

[f350ps]

Not legal in my opinion, not worth the chance anyways! K

[REMINGTON JIM]

Bullshit regulation would keep me from killing him ! :???: RJ

[Rhyno]

NO its not

Not sure how you figure that, 100% legal. That said I passed on a very similar situation 5 or 6 year ago because I was unsure and didn't have the benefit of looking at it in a picture.

[Rhyno]

Didn't read any of the thread but pull the trigger 100%

You sir are right!

[savagecanuck]

Hard pass !I've passed on few like that.Just not worth the guilt or aggravation. I don't need the meat that badly.

[HarryToolips]

You answered your own question.

If you're not sure, don't shoot. Period.

I've let quite a few bulls walk away that had questionable 3rd points. A few I'm 95% sure were legal, but that 5% doubt kept me from dropping the hammer. I have no regrets, and do have the satisfaction of sharing an exciting story with friends around the campfire on each encounter.
Yup same here...I let two 'immys' walk last year that were borderline..one I was 95% sure but was running off with another bull so didn't have time to verify the last 5% for sure..

[Caribou_lou]

Not going to read all the comments. Id pull the trigger on that moose all day every day! ... in hunting season.

[40incher]

The first post/picture is exactly why you don't want spike/fork regulations.

It's easy enough to tell it is legal as a 2x3 bull in the picture ... but in a real hunting situation of low light during the dawn and dusk periods mistakes will be made.

[Bunner]

I would let him walk. I would be histitant on pulling the trigger so better safe then sorry

[REMINGTON JIM]

Again why does the Wildlife dept set such a STUPID regulation that so hard to determine ! Thats why there are UNCLAIMED Dead moose found in the bush ! Again the F&W set the Hunter up for failure ! Spike Fork regulation is a JOKE ! :( jmo RJ

[J_T]

I would pass.

I would also ask this question. If there is a spike bull "elk" season, why does a bull that is 6 pts on one side and a single spike tine on the other only comply as a 6 pt? Would this moose not be a 3 pt?

[Sharpish]

I would shoot for sure. But it's harder to evaluate a moving animal vs a picture. The nub is wider than it is tall so it's not a point.

[MRP]

shoot its not even close to being a point


http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/image27.jpeghttp://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/image26.jpeg

1"X1" points / not points


I know ya just have to get him to let you put the stickers on.

[Fisher-Dude]

There's nothing about a point only being measured to an inch in the regs. The only reference is that it must be at least an inch. And it must be longer than it is wide. Thus a 3 inch long x 2 inch wide point is indeed a point.

[BRvalley]

I would pass.

I would also ask this question. If there is a spike bull "elk" season, why does a bull that is 6 pts on one side and a single spike tine on the other only comply as a 6 pt? Would this moose not be a 3 pt?

in the regs the definition of a moose spike fork is worded different than elk spike bull, it specifies no more than 2 on one antler....whereas elk definition is antlers that have no tines on main beams (plural)

[DeepJeep]

some great perspectives and examples here.

Hope it helps someone else out as well.

I think most of us can agree that its difficult to judge this in the field, but if given a tape measure and following the regs, its not a tine as its wider than its length.

[rimfire]

I would pass.

I would also ask this question. If there is a spike bull "elk" season, why does a bull that is 6 pts on one side and a single spike tine on the other only comply as a 6 pt? Would this moose not be a 3 pt?

Because the regs for moose aren't written that way. They want non-breeding bulls taken, hence the "spike-fork" or immature general open season.

[skibum]

Photo shopped - spike forks are fairy tales.

How about a discussion about all the wild pigs running around?

Seriously, I would shoot it, but it would be after some serious glassing, don't always get that perfect still picture in the bush to guide you.

[HarryToolips]

in the regs the definition of a moose spike fork is worded different than elk spike bull, it specifies no more than 2 on one antler....whereas elk definition is antlers that have no tines on main beams (plural)

This is correct...

[MRP]

Tine or "Point" - means a branch of anantler which is longer than its breadth and is atleast 2.5 cm in length, and for the purpose ofdetermining the length of a tine
(a) the breadth of the tine is measured (ifextending from a palmation of an antler, then inthe plane of the palm) at a location at least 2.5cm from the tip of the tine, and
(b) the length of the tine is measured from itstip end, following the midline of the profile ofthe tine, and following the natural curvature
of the tine, to the midpoint of the straight linealong which the breadth is measured. (SeeHow to Measure a Tine diagram below)




The pic on the bottom of page 5 of the regs makes it quite clear, looks just like my pictures.

If you don't shoot and leave him for me or get bigger next year, I'm ok with that.

[zazman]

I would hesitate and watch that guy wander off despite belief he is only two points on that side. Look at it from the other way - if you were looking for the third point on a brow tine for legal mature. I would never call that one a point and pull the trigger.

[Rupert Retired]

That's a legal bull. Whether I would shoot it or not is another question. But say if I told my partner to shoot it, I would argue all day with any CO that this is a legal bull, and I would go to court on it. (haha, but I wouldn't have to face the consequences!)

[Jim Prawn]

dead moose. as above the tine must be longer than it is wide at the base, regardless of wether or not it is an inch. num num num num ..
JP

[untilthelastbeat]

Boom. Dead bull bull right there, no question

[TexasWalker]

I'd shoot that bull without hesitation.

[dracb]

When you are looking at the left horn the view is one where the antler is perpendicular to the line of sight and the true lengths are obvious. In the case of the right antler, the antler is oriented almost in the plane of sight. The tine in question appears to be seen in a fore shortened view and as such can not be correctly judged for length in this view. I would bet it is more then 2.5 cm long.

As for picking another length to make the third tine legal/illegal, no matter what new length that might be chosen, the same question of judging legality will continue raise its ugly head in the field.

[Fisher-Dude]

When you are looking at the left horn the view is one where the antler is perpendicular to the line of sight and the true lengths are obvious. In the case of the right antler, the antler is oriented almost in the plane of sight. The tine in question appears to be seen in a fore shortened view and as such can not be correctly judged for length in this view. I would bet it is more then 2.5 cm long.

As for picking another length to make the third tine legal/illegal, no matter what new length that might be chosen, the same question of judging legality will continue raise its ugly head in the field.

Correct.

Those who say they'd shoot this bull based on the single view in the picture are generally the same people who find themselves in a shitty spot at some time in their hunting experience.

The whole point of this thread should be that there is no 100% way to determine legality of a spike fork bull without viewing it from multiple angles. Take your time and get yourself to 100% before you decide to pull the trigger.



HUNTER NOTICE Accidental Illegal Harvest

What should you do if you harvest an
animal in error?

Mistakes happen. Either through poor
judgement, inexperience or at times through
a series of unavoidable circumstances, each
year animals are mistakenly killed. Many are
self reported but many more are left in
the bush to rot. The Conservation Officer
Service (COS) wants to encourage those
who make such a mistake to come forward.
In circumstances where such animals are
recovered by the COS the meat will be
distributed and utilized by those in need.
Hunters who self report such kills will be
viewed in a different light than those who
intentionally kill an illegal animal or fail to
report the matter. The COS believes that the
true test of a hunter is not whether or not a
mistake is made, but how he/she deals with
that mistake.

All self reported unlawful kills will be
investigated and the appropriate action will
be assessed by the officer.

What should you do?

Immediately cancel your species licence and
mark in ink on the species licence page that
your intention is to self report.

If you have telephone service, call the
RAPP number and seek direction from a
Conservation Officer.

If you are within close proximity of a
phone but it will require some traveling,
field dress that animal to prevent spoilage,
leave the carcass at the scene and go
to a location where a call to the RAPP
number can be made.

If you are in a remote location and
telephone contact is not possible, field
dress that animal to prevent spoilage, care
for the carcass until you enter a location
where a phone call to the
RAPP number can be made.

RAPP 1- 877-952-7277

[jaeger]

Pass for sure! 1 inch is nothing on an animal like that. Especially if you look through binos. I wouldn't chance it!

[Codes44]

A tine must be longer than it is wide...tough to judge from pics but these guys are all right. it may very well be legal from what the pic shows ....but almost too close to risk it! I'd bet money on legal but tough call in the heat of the moment.

[Tim Tam Slam]

Bumping this thread, it’s a good reminder/test for the upcoming spikefork opener!

good luck to all!

[MRP]

Didn't grow much since last year did he.

[Bunner]

Nope don't look like it. Still a pass in the field for me

[Jelvis]

It has a fork on the one side the third tine is too short to count, so if one side has a spike or fork, Bango!
Jello --- A tine has to be over an inch, if you measure from base or center of main woody make a difference but as close as dam is tah swearin -- No C. O. woody nail you :smile:

[wos]

Still 100% a shooter.

[ratherbefishin]

Hard enough to tell close up....what do you do when it’s 100 yards away amd moving through willows?....That’s why I only hunt in ‘any bull’ areas or with an LEH....

[Sharpish]

It's 100% legal and although judging in the field is much harder that's clearly not a point.

[ratherbefishin]

The problem is it comes down to what a CO is going to call it...you get a CO that is a hunter and understands the challenge of determining what is legal and what isn,t vs somebody who only got his experaince out of a book...but I really wonder how many ‘legal’ immatures are left for the Wolves once the hunter walks up and realizes it might not be legal...

[albravo2]

If it isn't a legal animal I'd hope a CO would understand why a hunter would shoot it and be reasonable in determining consequences.

We're talking about a very slight margin of error in a situation that has lots of variables.

I'd shoot it.