Forced to Creston

[stixnstones]

elk plans changed for us the other n now are forced to Creston or go home. Don't really wanna head back empty handed as we have s youth with us. Looking for an elk or a deer for the little girl with us. Any info wood b greatly appreciated. Thx

[Chrispryn]

Oh man. You guys too? I think alot of peoples plans are going to be changing last minute. Hope you get onto something.

[Rhyno]

Yeah I am thinking it's going to be crazy near Creston with all the groups shut down from the Cranbrook area.

[J_T]

Hunt quick. The bush and forest roads in the Creston and West Kootenay wont be open long. We've seen it before. Animals (and land owners) in the WK cant take the hunter pressure when the EK is closed.

[HighCountryBC]

Hunt quick. The bush and forest roads in the Creston and West Kootenay wont be open long. We've seen it before. Animals (and land owners) in the WK cant take the hunter pressure when the EK is closed.

This is not accurate information.

[canucks6]

JT. U nailed it. I m west kootenay born and raised. It is crazzy busy already over here. Unless the road is a fresh logging road it isnt accesible. The highways have pickups lined up along them in decent elk areas. That's the way it goes. Hunters want to hunt. Just please everyone be smart and try to respect our resources.

[835]

I typed you a pm. But your box is full.
Super smokey in creston.

[Fisher-Dude]

Super smokey in creston.

That blew over from Shambhala.

[stixnstones]

Try again to pm me 835. Thanks

[HighCountryBC]

Hunt quick. The bush and forest roads in the Creston and West Kootenay wont be open long. We've seen it before. Animals (and land owners) in the WK cant take the hunter pressure when the EK is closed.

Currently there are no plans to shut the WK down. That could change but doesn't seem likely at this point with the overnight recoveries. As for your comment about the WK not being able to handle the pressure, I have to ask what you mean by that? There are a ton of drainage's that don't see a single hunter the whole season..

[hunter1947]

The rain is coming they say rain by the 14,15th,16 of sept 70% here in cranbrook

[J_T]

Currently there are no plans to shut the WK down. That could change but doesn't seem likely at this point with the overnight recoveries. As for your comment about the WK not being able to handle the pressure, I have to ask what you mean by that? There are a ton of drainage's that don't see a single hunter the whole season..
There are a number of things to consider. The EK is a traditional hunting area if you don't hunt, you accept that hunting is a part of life. Hunting in the WK is often met with disdain from the non and anti hunting community. An increase in hunting pressure, puts the optics of hunting in the face of non hunters. Parking, camping, access, private land, all considerations.
When regulations are determined, it is with understanding the cumulative impact of changing a hunt in one location is offset by a season in another. The region is managed as a whole and hunting in the WK is based in part, on the number of hunters likely to hunt there. And harvest rates. (When LEH was removed in the WK and GOS implemented it was done so that - if sustainable - the EK might be able to move off 6pt GOS) At present the Ministry is concerned about the sustainability of the GOS elk hunt in the WK and are recommending reductions. Closing the EK, will increase hunter numbers in the WK and harvests will go up. Hunters want to hunt. Hunters must hunt.
While geographically the WK appears to have a similar area, elk hunters hunt, where elk are. And elk don't live in all areas of the WK, their habitat, their range and their movement in the WK is different than in the EK. This increases local pressure by hunters, after the same elk.

A few years ago, when most of the WK was on LEH, the EK was closed due to fire. MU 4-18 was one of the few GOS areas in the region and it saw a significant increase in both hunter numbers and harvests that year.

[338win mag]

There are a number of things to consider. The EK is a traditional hunting area if you don't hunt, you accept that hunting is a part of life. Hunting in the WK is often met with disdain from the non and anti hunting community. An increase in hunting pressure, puts the optics of hunting in the face of non hunters. Parking, camping, access, private land, all considerations.
When regulations are determined, it is with understanding the cumulative impact of changing a hunt in one location is offset by a season in another. The region is managed as a whole and hunting in the WK is based in part, on the number of hunters likely to hunt there. And harvest rates. (When LEH was removed in the WK and GOS implemented it was done so that - if sustainable - the EK might be able to move off 6pt GOS) At present the Ministry is concerned about the sustainability of the GOS elk hunt in the WK and are recommending reductions. Closing the EK, will increase hunter numbers in the WK and harvests will go up. Hunters want to hunt. Hunters must hunt.
While geographically the WK appears to have a similar area, elk hunters hunt, where elk are. And elk don't live in all areas of the WK, their habitat, their range and their movement in the WK is different than in the EK. This increases local pressure by hunters, after the same elk.

A few years ago, when most of the WK was on LEH, the EK was closed due to fire. MU 4-18 was one of the few GOS areas in the region and it saw a significant increase in both hunter numbers and harvests that year.
This can apply to any region in bc,,,,so everyone can still go to region 8 to hunt?
Folks in the WK cried when the elk were opened for gos to start with.

[Fisher-Dude]

There are a number of things to consider. The EK is a traditional hunting area if you don't hunt, you accept that hunting is a part of life. Hunting in the WK is often met with disdain from the non and anti hunting community. An increase in hunting pressure, puts the optics of hunting in the face of non hunters. Parking, camping, access, private land, all considerations.
When regulations are determined, it is with understanding the cumulative impact of changing a hunt in one location is offset by a season in another. The region is managed as a whole and hunting in the WK is based in part, on the number of hunters likely to hunt there. And harvest rates. (When LEH was removed in the WK and GOS implemented it was done so that - if sustainable - the EK might be able to move off 6pt GOS) At present the Ministry is concerned about the sustainability of the GOS elk hunt in the WK and are recommending reductions. Closing the EK, will increase hunter numbers in the WK and harvests will go up. Hunters want to hunt. Hunters must hunt.
While geographically the WK appears to have a similar area, elk hunters hunt, where elk are. And elk don't live in all areas of the WK, their habitat, their range and their movement in the WK is different than in the EK. This increases local pressure by hunters, after the same elk.

A few years ago, when most of the WK was on LEH, the EK was closed due to fire. MU 4-18 was one of the few GOS areas in the region and it saw a significant increase in both hunter numbers and harvests that year.

There isn't a bio who could face himself in the mirror if he said that 6 point elk hunts aren't sustainable in any situation.

I'm calling gigantic BS on that one. Social engineering at its finest.

[HighCountryBC]

There are a number of things to consider. The EK is a traditional hunting area if you don't hunt, you accept that hunting is a part of life. Hunting in the WK is often met with disdain from the non and anti hunting community. An increase in hunting pressure, puts the optics of hunting in the face of non hunters. Parking, camping, access, private land, all considerations.
When regulations are determined, it is with understanding the cumulative impact of changing a hunt in one location is offset by a season in another. The region is managed as a whole and hunting in the WK is based in part, on the number of hunters likely to hunt there. And harvest rates. (When LEH was removed in the WK and GOS implemented it was done so that - if sustainable - the EK might be able to move off 6pt GOS) At present the Ministry is concerned about the sustainability of the GOS elk hunt in the WK and are recommending reductions. Closing the EK, will increase hunter numbers in the WK and harvests will go up. Hunters want to hunt. Hunters must hunt.
While geographically the WK appears to have a similar area, elk hunters hunt, where elk are. And elk don't live in all areas of the WK, their habitat, their range and their movement in the WK is different than in the EK. This increases local pressure by hunters, after the same elk.

A few years ago, when most of the WK was on LEH, the EK was closed due to fire. MU 4-18 was one of the few GOS areas in the region and it saw a significant increase in both hunter numbers and harvests that year.

Sorry JT but the bolded part is a giant load of baloney.

See FD's response above.

[J_T]

This can apply to any region in bc,,,,so everyone can still go to region 8 to hunt?
Folks in the WK cried when the elk were opened for gos to start with. Each region is somewhat unique. But sure, could happen anywhere. I guess the difference is, it's happening here right now. Anyway, it was only my opinion. I thought I was entitled to that.


There isn't a bio who could face himself in the mirror if he said that 6 point elk hunts aren't sustainable in any situation.

I'm calling gigantic BS on that one. Social engineering at its finest. Fair enough. I understand where you land on the sustainability of point restriction regulations. I agree, hunting is not the reason for the demise of populations. I'm simply offering information about the discussion that 'is' and 'has' occurred at the regulation meetings. I do know the Ministry has provided data and expressed concern about the WK elk hunt. And I guess they'll be avoiding the mirror soon.


Sorry JT but the bolded part is a giant load of baloney.

See FD's response above. Well, fair enough, I guess you're entitled to your opinion. I know for a fact that the Ministry is recommending significant cuts in the duration of the WK elk GOS. No hunting in the rut. Oct 1 - 20 GOS in the WK.


As the original discussion was about EK hunters shifting their focus to the nearest open area, my earlier comment was really just to make the statement/observation, that regulations are designed based on a region. Considering the impacts of decisions for one area against those in another. When something like a bush closure occurs in one area, it does result in a shift of opportunity and how hunters will pursue their hunt. It does result in additional pressure somewhere else. That's a given.

You guys can challenge me all you want. I offered it as an opinion based on my experience. I guess we'll see.

[backcountry99]

Sorry JT but the bolded part is a giant load of baloney.

See FD's response above.


No its not! Elk counts were done in the wk this winter and the results were alarming! Numbers way below expected levels and bull to cow ratios to low as well.
The masses that stampede into the wk because of the ek closure are about to get a rude awakening at the current state of wildlife in the wk.

[Fisher-Dude]

No its not! Elk counts were done in the wk this winter and the results were alarming! Numbers way below expected levels and bull to cow ratios to low as well.
The masses that stampede into the wk because of the ek closure are about to get a rude awakening at the current state of wildlife in the wk.

It's impossible to dip below 20:100 bull:cow ratios with a 6 point season. The demographics of any elk herd just don't support enough late class III and class IV bulls to result in such a decline, even if every single 6 point were shot, which we know is also impossible.

When your closing sentence is entirely social-based rather than science-based, it's quite obvious what the desired outcome is for you. Your desired outcome for the social aspects of your personal hunt and the desired outcome for elk management are two entirely different things.

[backcountry99]

It's impossible to dip below 20:100 bull:cow ratios with a 6 point season. The demographics of any elk herd just don't support enough late class III and class IV bulls to result in such a decline, even if every single 6 point were shot, which we know is also impossible.

When your closing sentence is entirely social-based rather than science-based, it's quite obvious what the desired outcome is for you. Your desired outcome for the social aspects of your personal hunt and the desired outcome for elk management are two entirely different things.

Your arrogance continues to amaze me fd!

You keep throwing around your science based response but my response is evidence based! We had these ariel survey results presented to us and never once did I blame it on a GOS 6 pt season. I for one would like to keep a 6 pt season in the WK, which is not what the majority feel. These numbers are a culmanation of the predator cycle being near the top of the cycle, a very hard winter and very heavy hunting pressure, among other issues.

So like it or not the WK animal populations are in bad order and extra heavy hunting pressure do to the EK closure is the last thing needed.

Take your arrogant know it all opinions and blow them out your ass FD!

[J_T]

With respect to the WK elk, the Ministry have presented data about when the peak of the harvest is. Their objective is to reduce the harvest. Using 'numbers/data' closing the season early will result in a moderate (17%) reduction in harvest. Based on previous year's harvests, it is anticipated opening the season later (Oct 01) projects a substantial (68-79%) reduction in the harvest. The proposed amendment is also intended to reduce hunter numbers, optimistically thinking that many will have harvested elsewhere (IE the EK). Thus my comments earlier about a closure in the EK having an impact in the WK.

So the objectives are clear, limit hunters, reduce harvests, hunt outside the rut.

FD et al, if you are at all connected and aware, then you know, the wildlife interest groups in Region 4 are working collaboratively, working hard and are setting expectation for Government. The focus is wildlife. These groups have come together more than a couple of times and generated documentation to put measurable expectation on Government. It's all a work in progress.

Baloney and opinions aside. This is where we're at.

[rogerb]

so if we go back to Oct 1 to Oct 20 for elk in the west kootenays like it was in 2010-2011 then presumably the bow only season for elk will also be eliminated (no elk archery season 2010-2011 in the wk). something to think about for all those pushing for the rollback in the elk season here.

and the last I heard the real problem with the wk elk herd was calf survival, hard to see how dramatically reducing the harvest of six point bulls is going to rectify that situation.....

[Fisher-Dude]

so if we go back to Oct 1 to Oct 20 for elk in the west kootenays like it was in 2010-2011 then presumably the bow only season for elk will also be eliminated (no elk archery season 2010-2011 in the wk). something to think about for all those pushing for the rollback in the elk season here.

and the last I heard the real problem with the wk elk herd was calf survival, hard to see how dramatically reducing the harvest of six point bulls is going to rectify that situation.....

Bingo!

Let's all hope science trumps agenda-based decisions, in all situations.

[backcountry99]

Bingo!

Let's all hope science trumps agenda-based decisions, in all situations.

Would really like to see some of your scientific facts on the current situation in the WK?

[HarryToolips]

Your arrogance continues to amaze me fd!

You keep throwing around your science based response but my response is evidence based! We had these ariel survey results presented to us and never once did I blame it on a GOS 6 pt season. I for one would like to keep a 6 pt season in the WK, which is not what the majority feel. These numbers are a culmanation of the predator cycle being near the top of the cycle, a very hard winter and very heavy hunting pressure, among other issues.

So like it or not the WK animal populations are in bad order and extra heavy hunting pressure do to the EK closure is the last thing needed.

Take your arrogant know it all opinions and blow them out your ass FD!
The culmanation of problems you listed are definitely problems that will impact numbers...how will reducing the 6 pt season help with those real problems??

[Everett]

Well the usual WK nimby crowd is screaming like usual, holy crap its hard to even read your drivel without laughing myself sick. Maybe Elk should go back on LEH so you can have your Elk hunting holidays away from your wives in the EK again.
The solution to protect the herd is not allow any west kootenay hunters to harvest elk since they shoot %80 percent of the elk we cut them out we will have a healthy population. Pretty simple shit.

[J_T]

Have fun here boys. You've gone down the path of silly. Real work needs to be done.

We make demands for informed decisions by Government. They step up (somewhat) and provide an analysis of what is happening and Government move a recommendation forward.
The wildlife groups that sit on committee are working 'together' and are not seeking personal agendas, but rather requesting Government to work efficiently and analyze decisions. These groups do not necessarily agree with the solution Government is proposing.

Yet, you won't accept it when Government starts to do their job.
Jump to conclusions.
Accuse others of killing all the animals
Blame others of being on personal agendas.

Help me understand again, where is the problem?

[backcountry99]

The culmanation of problems you listed are definitely problems that will impact numbers...how will reducing the 6 pt season help with those real problems??

Think you better read it again! I want to keep the 6 pt season just the way it is. I like that having a 6 pt season in the ek and wk and region 8 spreads out the pressure. Heck i hunt region 8 for elk now anyhow because they are on the upswing there.
This was about the WK elk being in a bad situation and not needing the extra pressure of the EK being shutdown.

[Fisher-Dude]

Well the usual WK nimby crowd is screaming like usual, holy crap its hard to even read your drivel without laughing myself sick. Maybe Elk should go back on LEH so you can have your Elk hunting holidays away from your wives in the EK again.


Seems people think they'll be able to go hunt elk on 100:1 draw odds.

The only published elk survey we have on the WK post-GOS implementation shows terrific bull:cow ratios of between 42:100 and 58:100, with protected <6 point bulls making up 21:100 to 40:100 of those ratios, further illustrating that we could kill every single 6 point and not drop sex ratios below the 20:100 management target. Even if we dropped to 10:100 we would still experience 90%+ pregnancy rates.

There's zero conservation concern with the current season.

The concern with the composition survey is the low calf:cow ratios. Mid-winter ratios range from 21:100 to 37:100, with the highest ratio being barely sufficient to hold the population steady.

With high pregnancy rates from a ridiculously high bull:cow ratio, but low calf:cow ratios, the problem certainly won't be addressed by altering a 6 point bull elk season. In fact, removal of single adult bulls from winter range may actually help calf survival on winter range by ensuring food supply for calves.

Calf survival is the only way to grow an elk population. Keeping adult bulls around when you have overflowing buckets of sperm already is counter-intuitive, and will not increase the elk population nor stabilize any declines over time.

We have bowhunters cheering on closure of rifle hunts. We have NIMBYs cheering on closure of bull hunts thinking they'll have the bush to themselves but don't realize they'll die before they get an LEH draw. Neither of these social agendas will address poor calf recruitment or do anything whatsoever for elk populations, but they don't seem too concerned about that.

[J_T]

Seems people think they'll be able to go hunt elk on 100:1 draw odds.

The only published elk survey we have on the WK post-GOS implementation shows terrific bull:cow ratios of between 42:100 and 58:100, with protected <6 point bulls making up 21:100 to 40:100 of those ratios, further illustrating that we could kill every single 6 point and not drop sex ratios below the 20:100 management target. Even if we dropped to 10:100 we would still experience 90%+ pregnancy rates.

There's zero conservation concern with the current season.

The concern with the composition survey is the low calf:cow ratios. Mid-winter ratios range from 21:100 to 37:100, with the highest ratio being barely sufficient to hold the population steady.

With high pregnancy rates from a ridiculously high bull:cow ratio, but low calf:cow ratios, the problem certainly won't be addressed by altering a 6 point bull elk season. In fact, removal of single adult bulls from winter range may actually help calf survival on winter range by ensuring food supply for calves.

Calf survival is the only way to grow an elk population. Keeping adult bulls around when you have overflowing buckets of sperm already is counter-intuitive, and will not increase the elk population nor stabilize any declines over time.

We have bowhunters cheering on closure of rifle hunts. We have NIMBYs cheering on closure of bull hunts thinking they'll have the bush to themselves but don't realize they'll die before they get an LEH draw. Neither of these social agendas will address poor calf recruitment or do anything whatsoever for elk populations, but they don't seem too concerned about that.

haha, good work. And you don't seem to be worried about truth or reality. You can continue to make up anything you want and work to inflame a situation to suit your confrontational desires. Internet Drama Queen. I'm just not sure what happened to you that you have such a need to create conflict and be the centre of it. Most of us in the spirit of wildlife are putting the sword and shield down and working together. Perhaps you should give some of your 'buddies' in the EK who we both know, are working with everyone else in the spirit of wildlife and good, sound decisions.

Let's put our effort into focusing on the real issues. Your Princess needs are not serving wildlife any good.

[HarryToolips]

Think you better read it again! I want to keep the 6 pt season just the way it is. I like that having a 6 pt season in the ek and wk and region 8 spreads out the pressure. Heck i hunt region 8 for elk now anyhow because they are on the upswing there.
This was about the WK elk being in a bad situation and not needing the extra pressure of the EK being shutdown.

Ah k sorry read ya wrong...totally agree with what you are saying.......I read that reg 8 elk are on the upswing as well, very good to hear.. according to the MOE the elk pops in reg 8 is only 2500-3500, and quite a few 6 pointers are taken every year I hear, and yet our elk pops is still on the upswing..hmm..

[HarryToolips]

haha, good work. And you don't seem to be worried about truth or reality. You can continue to make up anything you want and work to inflame a situation to suit your confrontational desires. Internet Drama Queen. I'm just not sure what happened to you that you have such a need to create conflict and be the centre of it. Most of us in the spirit of wildlife are putting the sword and shield down and working together. Perhaps you should give some of your 'buddies' in the EK who we both know, are working with everyone else in the spirit of wildlife and good, sound decisions.

Let's put our effort into focusing on the real issues. Your Princess needs are not serving wildlife any good.

Let's look past all the other stuff, and realize that the science he is putting out there is correct..

[backcountry99]

Seems people think they'll be able to go hunt elk on 100:1 draw odds.

The only published elk survey we have on the WK post-GOS implementation shows terrific bull:cow ratios of between 42:100 and 58:100, with protected <6 point bulls making up 21:100 to 40:100 of those ratios, further illustrating that we could kill every single 6 point and not drop sex ratios below the 20:100 management target. Even if we dropped to 10:100 we would still experience 90%+ pregnancy rates.

There's zero conservation concern with the current season.

The concern with the composition survey is the low calf:cow ratios. Mid-winter ratios range from 21:100 to 37:100, with the highest ratio being barely sufficient to hold the population steady.

With high pregnancy rates from a ridiculously high bull:cow ratio, but low calf:cow ratios, the problem certainly won't be addressed by altering a 6 point bull elk season. In fact, removal of single adult bulls from winter range may actually help calf survival on winter range by ensuring food supply for calves.

Calf survival is the only way to grow an elk population. Keeping adult bulls around when you have overflowing buckets of sperm already is counter-intuitive, and will not increase the elk population nor stabilize any declines over time.

We have bowhunters cheering on closure of rifle hunts. We have NIMBYs cheering on closure of bull hunts thinking they'll have the bush to themselves but don't realize they'll die before they get an LEH draw. Neither of these social agendas will address poor calf recruitment or do anything whatsoever for elk populations, but they don't seem too concerned about that.

Exactly what JT said you are a joke FD!

Your information is old and not once have I made mention of closing a 6 pt season! The WK is not what it was 8 years ago, 3 years ago or even 1 year ago.

[J_T]

Let's look past all the other stuff, and realize that the science he is putting out there is correct..
Science? Or Spin? Any good information he may provide is lost in the bullshit and confrontation of his attitude. No one here says they disagree with his science statements. Fact is, Government biologists have said they are concerned about the sustainability of the WK population. Hunters have questioned it (in far more polite ways than that of your friend here) and asked for data, and Government has responded to the committee with data and reason behind their recommendations. You/we can go on and on about what we believe or what we support, but the bottom line is, we've asked Government to provide analytics to support their recommendations, and they are. Whether guys from R8 believe it or agree with it, is your issue. This is likely going to be the case with all "Science-based" decisions going forward. Many hunters will deny or disagree with the data. So no one wins. There is always a loser, there is always the sufferance of FD that everyone on HBC is going to have to endure. Frankly it doesn't look good on you. At some point, as change is brought forward we have to see it as a work in progress, we have to work together for the benefit of wildlife and we have trust in each other, accept decisions of Government.

[boxhitch]

Hunters have questioned it and asked for data, and Government has responded to the committee with data and reason behind their recommendations. You/we can go on and on about what we believe or what we support, but the bottom line is, we've asked Government to provide analytics to support their recommendations, and they are.Then why not share some of your data?

Fact is, Government biologists have said they are concerned about the sustainability of the WK population.And in all this, is anyone really blaming the regulated hunter as being the problem/cause of declining populations? Show us where more 6 pint bulls are needed.

[HarryToolips]

Science? Or Spin? Any good information he may provide is lost in the bullshit and confrontation of his attitude. No one here says they disagree with his science statements. Fact is, Government biologists have said they are concerned about the sustainability of the WK population. Hunters have questioned it (in far more polite ways than that of your friend here) and asked for data, and Government has responded to the committee with data and reason behind their recommendations. You/we can go on and on about what we believe or what we support, but the bottom line is, we've asked Government to provide analytics to support their recommendations, and they are. Whether guys from R8 believe it or agree with it, is your issue. This is likely going to be the case with all "Science-based" decisions going forward. Many hunters will deny or disagree with the data. So no one wins. There is always a loser, there is always the sufferance of FD that everyone on HBC is going to have to endure. Frankly it doesn't look good on you. At some point, as change is brought forward we have to see it as a work in progress, we have to work together for the benefit of wildlife and we have trust in each other, accept decisions of Government.
As Boxhitch has said, show us where sperm supply is the issue??? Because the low calf survival rates according to the study that FD posted, show predators as a problem...and how has the winters been the last few years in the WK?? Hey FD would you be able to post a link to the study that you posted those stats from??

[Bugle M In]

Sustainability is a factor in just about any part of the region, and over 40+ years, I have seen restriction upon restriction, closures upon closures, and more restrictions etc etc.....always focused at the hunter, or should I say "Hunting" as the factor
to have caused thee declines, thus restrictions and closures.
And, after all this time, and I mean years now....nothing has really improved.
So, maybe the Government should go shove their policies "up there ass" as well as "some" biologists.
The reality is, it is other factors, not hunting.
Hunting is sustainable.
And if wildlife populations are not staying sustainable, then that means something else is at work...happening.

Now, I get closures at time....example...sockeye this season.
But, again, government bans the sports fisherman from dropping a pole in the water to catch atleast even 1 sockeye.
And yet, the government, and bios with no balls, wont stop the other group from continuing on.

Does that some up my thoughts on the Government.....
And their BS policies.
Same with region 5, and its closures in Nov, just to push everyone into reg 3.....real brains at work there.

Want to fix the problem, then government need to push money into the other aspects of wildlife, and what is needed to
sustain them.
Government only concerned with construction permits for resorts etc, and lining their back pockets, and some of the guys
who we don't vote for, the guys that sit in the ministry, that don't have the balls to push the government in the right
direction.
That's where the problem is.

[Fisher-Dude]

Sustainability is a factor in just about any part of the region, and over 40+ years, I have seen restriction upon restriction, closures upon closures, and more restrictions etc etc.....always focused at the hunter, or should I say "Hunting" as the factor
to have caused thee declines, thus restrictions and closures.
And, after all this time, and I mean years now....nothing has really improved.
So, maybe the Government should go shove their policies "up there ass" as well as "some" biologists.
The reality is, it is other factors, not hunting.
Hunting is sustainable.
And if wildlife populations are not staying sustainable, then that means something else is at work...happening.

Now, I get closures at time....example...sockeye this season.
But, again, government bans the sports fisherman from dropping a pole in the water to catch atleast even 1 sockeye.
And yet, the government, and bios with no balls, wont stop the other group from continuing on.

Does that some up my thoughts on the Government.....
And their BS policies.
Same with region 5, and its closures in Nov, just to push everyone into reg 3.....real brains at work there.

Want to fix the problem, then government need to push money into the other aspects of wildlife, and what is needed to
sustain them.
Government only concerned with construction permits for resorts etc, and lining their back pockets, and some of the guys
who we don't vote for, the guys that sit in the ministry, that don't have the balls to push the government in the right
direction.
That's where the problem is.

You've summed it up perfectly, B M I.

Hunters blame hunters, hunters try to restrict other hunters, hunters roll over and play dead when unfounded closures are thrust upon them.

Politicians love an "easy" fix like that. Costs next to nothing, and 95% of hunters aren't involved in the process and just accept the shit thrown their way.

We've restricted hunting to a dribble for 40 years, and wildlife (and hunter numbers) has declined throughout that period.

When politicians see hunters screaming for more restrictions (which won't change SFA for wildlife), it gets easier and easier for them to close down more and more hunting, to the point it becomes irrelevant and closed altogether.

When hunters consider their opportunities to be disposable, politicians decide that it's an unimportant activity and shut it down to appease antis for votes.

Hunters should be fighting hard to maintain every little opportunity they have, rather than thinking how some closure will be better for their chosen method of hunting.

[J_T]

Then why not share some of your data?
.And in all this, is anyone really blaming the regulated hunter as being the problem/cause of declining populations? Show us where more 6 pint bulls are needed. It's not my data to share. I didn't collect it. I'm a receiver of it. I would think you guys are sufficiently connected that it would have been disseminated to you. I would hope by now, your question of hunters impacting populations is not directed at me. But Government have released harvest data (I have only seen hard copy) of each week of the hunt. Including the bow season (responsible for 10% of the harvest) and the first two weeks of GOS being responsible for 69% of total harvest. But it's not my data to share, or defend. Wildlife groups questioned the focus on hunters and regulation change. But it is, what it is.


As Boxhitch has said, show us where sperm supply is the issue??? Because the low calf survival rates according to the study that FD posted, show predators as a problem...and how has the winters been the last few years in the WK?? Hey FD would you be able to post a link to the study that you posted those stats from?? Why are you putting this on me? I don't disagree with Pat's comments about the actual science. As usual, my concerns with Pat is his need to be derogatory, divisive and confrontational. When it doesn't do any good.

[HarryToolips]

Why are you putting this on me? I don't disagree with Pat's comments about the actual science. As usual, my concerns with Pat is his need to be derogatory, divisive and confrontational. When it doesn't do any good.

Fair enough....my conclusion to this thread is we need rain rain rain and hopefully the EK will open again soon, and we needed a BC Liberal Govt. in charge to do what they said, and put all hunting and hunting licencing revenue back into wildlife..it would have been the best thing for wildlife, but for now were stuck with the ignorant NDGreens..we can say what we want about the BC Liberals and their shenanigans, but they would have thrown $$ at wildlife for habitat, more counts etc etc and it would have been great - here's to hoping it happens sooner that later..

[338win mag]

I would like to see the data for the WK too, and the data for a increasing elk population in region 8.
I'm simply going to say that (if its worded right) the deer population in region 8 and 3 is in a tailspin, so it could/should be closed too, instead the bag limit is increased......wtf??????
Its unlikely that its hunting causing it all, its contributing just like roadkill is also a factor, however those of us who live and hunt here know what the issue's are, just like the guys from the WK should know, I would think.
I am really ****ing concerned about the pressure we are going to see in 3-8 for an already wimpering deer and Moose population.
I wont be too quick to jump on any political parties wagon as the liberals had how many years to put the $$$ back into wildlife initiatives? The NDP can do that right now if they wanted, what are they going to do anyways?
The liberals gave resident hunters opportunities to the guiding industry, and they are the party to fix this schitt, lol

[Bugle M In]

Firstly, we don't have a "political party" that really does right for any "average joe".
Yes, the Libs worked with people who helped fund there campaigns, or lets face it, threw them money under the table.
NDP...well shit...I could tell you some stories of them personally (private life), and again, they act like they care...
but it will cost us a fortune...as again, they want to support the "minority population" of BC.
In other words...give more away, and we, the average joe, pay more taxes in the end.
There is no party for the "average joe".
So, deer are wimpering/dwindling in population...well...what are we to do...????
Make more regulations, which haven't helped (the past history should be a great example).

Now, I agree, maybe we should limit the amount of mulies (lets say) that one can take in a season.
Then atleast, a hunter can't go to one region, and then head off to another the next week.
I am good with that!
Hunters, if they just enjoy hunting, will become "selective" for that "elusive trophy buck"
Other hunters will still bang/flop a deer for meet, and that season is over.
Then we can open up all the regions, with no closures, and "not restrict ourselves" any further.
But, if someone gets an elk tag, who cares if he takes it in the EK or WK...he/she only gets 1.
If it gets bad in the WK, hunters move on elsewhere (not all, but some).
Some may go to EK again or Peace or wherever they will they may find better success.
What I am saying is...it will all "work out in the wash".
But lets stop help restricting ourselves....because that is what is happening.

It's like some here have their own "honeyhole", and don't want anyone else to even attempt to explore in case they just
happen to find out....because it was open.

We should be screaming about habitat...or predator control...or certain groups given "special exemptions"!!
Come on guys....your not looking at the failed attempts of the past...for years now (maybe too young for some to know any better??)

Great that everyone wants a voice to be heard...but some are screaming continuously in the wrong direction!

I used to be anyone could go hunting...ask a friend, go to the store, pick up rifle/scope and ammo for under 50, and buy a few tags and off we go!
Lot more game back then, even with all those folks out there!
So...stop...ask yourself whats changed....
Progress...in the form of "development" and more an more private land", and changes with lack of pred control or burns.
That's whats changed!
I know how to hunt, but it sure is weird to see all that game on famlands now...not in the high country any longer.
(Mulies on the highway, not in the alpine, mid august??etc).

Look at the states, like Oregon, way more hunters down there, way less land....but they, the hunters seem to be happy.
Why....because there is more game, not less, and not because they find ways to "have less hunters out in the field"

[stixnstones]

Wow opened a can of worms. Just was looking for a hint. Don't worry we are all back now.

[LBM]

Wow opened a can of worms. Just was looking for a hint. Don't worry we are all back now.

Well how did it go were you able to find some thing for the kids.

[stixnstones]

1 deer for one of the youngsters.

[LBM]

1 deer for one of the youngsters.

Cool congrats to them.

[Bugle M In]

The reality is folks...
This year was/is an unuaslly hot and very dry summer.
Throw in the pine beetle kill, and here we are....east kootenay closed.
So, of course there is going to be more traffic in the WK...probably is in R8 as well.
As for government etc do the right thing,,,
I remember in the 70's, they wanted to "Spray".
But thanks to the "greenpeacers of the day" and some residents in those areas....it didn't happen.
Government caved..
That why in some areas we see logging practices that look out of control....they tried to maximize their yield, to get the
green trees before the beetle ( and yes, I have a close friend who is a licensed forester here, and he admits there is a lot of truth in that statement).
Take the EK, and that huge leh cow system back in the early 90's, and I don't know how far back that went into ..80's??)
We already had 3 point and better, but for some reason, we had a huge cow tag allotment, and many hunters said it wasn't a good thing...and they were right...but for some reasons, the bios of the day thought it was fine.
The suddenly, the tags are dropped, the season didn't open til the 25th, and 6 point came into affect.
So, sorry if I don't listen to trusting all the bios and the government.
So, why didn't the elk really come back?
I know the wolves did around that time, and then zonex opened up...funny how those 2 things coincided.
And who did the government listen to then....the ranchers.

As for bow hunters against rifle guys.
I don't have an issue with bow guys having a short season in the beginning...i'm fine with that (IMO)
But, bow only regions...really.
Just because a bow hunter comes across as being more ethical, isn't always true...I have caught a few in road closures
packing a bow.
Same goes for the rifle guys....good guys mostly, but still some guys that don't care about the rules.
The best thing I saw, was a bow hunter with a leh goat tag.
His 2 buddies carried rifles...why...cause he didn't want to hunt in Grizz country and be under gunned, so his buddies tagged along, with elk and deer tags.
That's both groups working hand in hand.
The bow guy wanted to hunt with bow, so theres no reason he cant, anytime of the season, and let the gun guys carry the guns.
Maybe, we could add a bow season after the general gun season.??
But, atleast we are "expanding" our hunting oppurtunities....not going down the rabbit hole of putting this culture into
extinction.

The rain will come, this year will pass into the books, and next probably be back to somewhat normal...although I don't
think the fires are done with the EK or southern part of BC in the future....theres a lot of deadwood laying in those hills.
Lets just be happy that mother nature it's thing to restore the true habitat in the forest...it's been neglected for too long.
But we hunters on the other hand need to put the thumb screws onto the government and bios to start making these wildlife populations bounce back, but not at the hunters expense any longer.
The changes need to come in other forms this time around.

[835]

Did any if you guys help sixteen stones??

[HarryToolips]

The reality is folks...
This year was/is an unuaslly hot and very dry summer.
Throw in the pine beetle kill, and here we are....east kootenay closed.
So, of course there is going to be more traffic in the WK...probably is in R8 as well.
As for government etc do the right thing,,,
I remember in the 70's, they wanted to "Spray".
But thanks to the "greenpeacers of the day" and some residents in those areas....it didn't happen.
Government caved..
That why in some areas we see logging practices that look out of control....they tried to maximize their yield, to get the
green trees before the beetle ( and yes, I have a close friend who is a licensed forester here, and he admits there is a lot of truth in that statement).
Take the EK, and that huge leh cow system back in the early 90's, and I don't know how far back that went into ..80's??)
We already had 3 point and better, but for some reason, we had a huge cow tag allotment, and many hunters said it wasn't a good thing...and they were right...but for some reasons, the bios of the day thought it was fine.
The suddenly, the tags are dropped, the season didn't open til the 25th, and 6 point came into affect.
So, sorry if I don't listen to trusting all the bios and the government.
So, why didn't the elk really come back?
I know the wolves did around that time, and then zonex opened up...funny how those 2 things coincided.
And who did the government listen to then....the ranchers.

As for bow hunters against rifle guys.
I don't have an issue with bow guys having a short season in the beginning...i'm fine with that (IMO)
But, bow only regions...really.
Just because a bow hunter comes across as being more ethical, isn't always true...I have caught a few in road closures
packing a bow.
Same goes for the rifle guys....good guys mostly, but still some guys that don't care about the rules.
The best thing I saw, was a bow hunter with a leh goat tag.
His 2 buddies carried rifles...why...cause he didn't want to hunt in Grizz country and be under gunned, so his buddies tagged along, with elk and deer tags.
That's both groups working hand in hand.
The bow guy wanted to hunt with bow, so theres no reason he cant, anytime of the season, and let the gun guys carry the guns.
Maybe, we could add a bow season after the general gun season.??
But, atleast we are "expanding" our hunting oppurtunities....not going down the rabbit hole of putting this culture into
extinction.

The rain will come, this year will pass into the books, and next probably be back to somewhat normal...although I don't
think the fires are done with the EK or southern part of BC in the future....theres a lot of deadwood laying in those hills.
Lets just be happy that mother nature it's thing to restore the true habitat in the forest...it's been neglected for too long.
But we hunters on the other hand need to put the thumb screws onto the government and bios to start making these wildlife populations bounce back, but not at the hunters expense any longer.
The changes need to come in other forms this time around.
Very well said....and the habitat brought by the fires will definitely be a good thing..

[Whonnock Boy]

Lol.... I was wondering the same thing. Doesn't look like it.
Did any if you guys help sixteen stones??

[HarryToolips]

I would like to see the data for the WK too, and the data for a increasing elk population in region 8.
I'm simply going to say that (if its worded right) the deer population in region 8 and 3 is in a tailspin, so it could/should be closed too, instead the bag limit is increased......wtf??????
Its unlikely that its hunting causing it all, its contributing just like roadkill is also a factor, however those of us who live and hunt here know what the issue's are, just like the guys from the WK should know, I would think.
I am really ****ing concerned about the pressure we are going to see in 3-8 for an already wimpering deer and Moose population.
I wont be too quick to jump on any political parties wagon as the liberals had how many years to put the $$$ back into wildlife initiatives? The NDP can do that right now if they wanted, what are they going to do anyways?
The liberals gave resident hunters opportunities to the guiding industry, and they are the party to fix this schitt, lol
Bull malarkey where are you seeing whimpering deer and moose pops in 3 and 8? Look at the counts that FD posted in 8-15, hell in one agricultural part of R8 this year early spring I counted 400 whitetails..its dry out but from what myself and others I know are seeing, the criitersmarent doing to bad round here..

[HarryToolips]

And stixnstones pm sent..