New plan: kill the moose to save the Caribou

[Asco]

The morning news on the radio today:
It is been determined that reducing moose population reduces wolf population. The Government is considering reducing moose population in areas where mountain Caribou are endangered to reduce predation by wolves.

This is from the CBC. The science maybe accurate, but the methodology seems ridiculous.

Is the BCWF on board with this plan? It seems counterproductive

[northernbc]

They already do that. I met a co in the bush around the Mackenzie junction,he told me this is what they were doing. This was a few years ago now, kind of pissed me off ,travelled 5 hours for my leh trip and in a week never even saw a track. Just a load of other hunters all with leh. What a joke

[Bernie O]

This was tried around Revelstoke about 15 yrs ago. Did not work then either.
We lost most the moose and then the wolves went after the caribou.

[russm86]

Wouldn't it be more effective and more controllable to just kill the wolves?

[boblly1]

Sounds a little ridiculous to me why would you no target real problem. And eliminate the wolves after all they are the culprits.

[bearvalley]

Studies have been done on this.
If there is any alternative prey source after the moose are reduced the wolf population continues just fine.
A classic example was the attempt at recovering the caribou in the Quesnel highlands.
A few years after the moose reduction a peer report was released.
One critical comment that stood out was that the report stated that the final step to recovering the caribou population was never completed....REDUCE THE WOLVES.

[ForestWalker10]

that makes no sense lol. of course the wolves would move onto the next food source..

[Buckmeister]

It kinda like using a nail gun to shoot a nail into your hand.
You go to the doctor and say, "Doc, my hand hurts".
The Doctor says, "Well, I see you have a nail in your hand. Here's what I'm going to do, I will amputate your hand so you won't feel it anymore, then I will surgically reattach the nail to another part of your body that is even more sensitive. Your body will eventually get used to it."
You say, "But Doc, why don't you just remove the nail???".
Doc says, "Oh no, I can't do that because celebrities like Miley Cirus and some of the general public consider nails in the body as art and beautiful."

[325]

It kinda like using a nail gun to shoot a nail into your hand.
You go to the doctor and say, "Doc, my hand hurts".
The Doctor says, "Well, I see you have a nail in your hand. Here's what I'm going to do, I will amputate your hand so you won't feel it anymore, then I will surgically reattach the nail to another part of your body that is even more sensitive. Your body will eventually get used to it."
You say, "But Doc, why don't you just remove the nail???".
Doc says, "Oh no, I can't do that because celebrities like Miley Cirus and some of the general public consider nails in the body as art and beautiful."

Excellent and accurate analogy

[gutpile]

Wolves are another icon animal in other words political correctness !

[Rob Chipman]

It comes back to the same issue as with grizzlies, and Raincoast is an excellent example of the problem.

Raincoast wants to save wolves and they (Raincoast) are influential. Their position on caribou is that the caribou should be written off and human activity blamed. Wolves, they argue, did not create the problem and should not have to pay the price for it.

(In other words, wolves good, caribou expendable).

This is despite the fact that wolves do not require saving.

The next tie in is science. Raincoast (and others on their side of the discussion) feel that science is all well and good, but before science comes into the equation we have to make decisions based on ethics and morals. Raincoast and others are of the opinion that science cannot inform us on the moral and ethical questions.

Translation: moral and ethical people value wolves more than caribou and science can't trump morals. The guys banging this drum, as said, have influence which they have worked hard to develop.


Scientist, on the other hand, recognize that while some species are doomed to extinction there are others (black footed ferret, mexican gray wolf) that can be saved. They recognize that predator management plays a big role (band aid role if that's all you do, but a role none the less).

Shooting, trapping and poisoning wolves is a very tough sell to the public (I believe someone by the name of Jesse Zeman has identified our need for social license. Social license is exactly what's missing in wolf killing), but reducing ungulates is easier because there isn't a need for social license and guys like Raincoast don't give a shit about ungulates.

I'm not certain that going after moose was the conscious second choice of the bios, but I do know (as we all do) that shooting wolves is problematic.

There's a study goign around that measured the results of this kind of practice. I am not sure I read it correctly as it seems like only a band aid, but I'll try to get it up.

Point of my rant? We need science back management, funding and social license. We need all three. I will be visiting an MLA in a hour and a half and will discuss this and other issues.

I need more volunteers to visit MLAs. PM me or email me at rob@robchipman.net.

[Seeker]

The revelstoke Situation is multi-faceted as most wildlife issues are. They had access issues; logging roads pushed into sensitive caribou habitat providing wolves easier access to the caribou, they have a huge snow mobile population(big economic driver locally) that hard packed trails directly to caribou wintering grounds, and then finally the wolves were not reduced or targeted at all. Thus the failure to improve caribou numbers.

I find it incredible that we all sit on here and say "kill the wolves" it will help to solve the problem. I agree to an extent. Just checked the regs, each individual hunter is allowed a MINIMUM of 3 wolves. Some areas NBL, yup that's No Bag Limit. So, the government has basically given us the green light to do exactly as we are hoping to do. KILL A LOT OF WOLVES. I am as guilty as the next hunter, I have only killed one, and it was over 10 years ago prior to even knowing that wolves were an issue to be dealt with. If we want our game to improve and reducing the wolf effect is necessary, we as hunters need to put in a lot more effort in ridding ourselves of this competitor. We can't just sit here and whine that the government " should do more and implement a wolf cull". They basically have done everything they can to appease the hunters, but hunters have done very little. We want someone else to get rid of our problem when we have the tools and authority to do it ourselves.

[dakoda62]

Here's a thought, kill some wolves.

[HarryToolips]

They better not do that again......and yes we need to shoot some wolves....

[HarryToolips]

So were obviously in a predator pit in certain areas of the province, when should we expect a lot of these wolves as well as other preds to start dying off??

[Caribou_lou]

This seems like a bandaid solution (if it works). Kill moose-wolves leave-caribou numbers rise-moose population returns-wolves return-caribou numbers decline.

I may be way off but seems too simple. Kill the preds and all ungulates benefit

[russm86]

The revelstoke Situation is multi-faceted as most wildlife issues are. They had access issues; logging roads pushed into sensitive caribou habitat providing wolves easier access to the caribou, they have a huge snow mobile population(big economic driver locally) that hard packed trails directly to caribou wintering grounds, and then finally the wolves were not reduced or targeted at all. Thus the failure to improve caribou numbers.

I find it incredible that we all sit on here and say "kill the wolves" it will help to solve the problem. I agree to an extent. Just checked the regs, each individual hunter is allowed a MINIMUM of 3 wolves. Some areas NBL, yup that's No Bag Limit. So, the government has basically given us the green light to do exactly as we are hoping to do. KILL A LOT OF WOLVES. I am as guilty as the next hunter, I have only killed one, and it was over 10 years ago prior to even knowing that wolves were an issue to be dealt with. If we want our game to improve and reducing the wolf effect is necessary, we as hunters need to put in a lot more effort in ridding ourselves of this competitor. We can't just sit here and whine that the government " should do more and implement a wolf cull". They basically have done everything they can to appease the hunters, but hunters have done very little. We want someone else to get rid of our problem when we have the tools and authority to do it ourselves.

I would love to get out and get some wolves however I don't have the funds for a snowmobile which is pretty well necessary to hunt them in the winter which is the best/easiest/most effective time which obviously greatly increases your odds. I'm sure many others are in the same boat...

[Fisher-Dude]

The revelstoke Situation is multi-faceted as most wildlife issues are. They had access issues; logging roads pushed into sensitive caribou habitat providing wolves easier access to the caribou, they have a huge snow mobile population(big economic driver locally) that hard packed trails directly to caribou wintering grounds, and then finally the wolves were not reduced or targeted at all. Thus the failure to improve caribou numbers.

I find it incredible that we all sit on here and say "kill the wolves" it will help to solve the problem. I agree to an extent. Just checked the regs, each individual hunter is allowed a MINIMUM of 3 wolves. Some areas NBL, yup that's No Bag Limit. So, the government has basically given us the green light to do exactly as we are hoping to do. KILL A LOT OF WOLVES. I am as guilty as the next hunter, I have only killed one, and it was over 10 years ago prior to even knowing that wolves were an issue to be dealt with. If we want our game to improve and reducing the wolf effect is necessary, we as hunters need to put in a lot more effort in ridding ourselves of this competitor. We can't just sit here and whine that the government " should do more and implement a wolf cull". They basically have done everything they can to appease the hunters, but hunters have done very little. We want someone else to get rid of our problem when we have the tools and authority to do it ourselves.


Hunters are basically incapable of reducing wolf populations.

Packs have to be hit with 75% losses for 5 years running to have an effect. We might be able to hit 5% reduction if we really try.

It is only government that has the authority and ability to invoke wolf reduction programs - aerial gunning, 1080, and skilled, paid trappers.

If hunters want to do something to help, they can pressure politicians to do the right thing. At this point, that pressure has to be at the boiling point from a unified front of all concerned groups.

Politically, there has to be the will to take a hit in public support to do it. Not sure any of the current vote scramblers are willing.

[Salix]

I'm a Forester in Mackenzie and have spent lots of time trying to get my head around this one. I'm surprised it hasnt been more of an issue with people who hunt moose.
Couple years ago the government imposed orders on logging companies that basically say at lower elevations (moose winter range) there can be very little moose browse. Logging companies have to do very intense brushing treatment to prevent the growth of moose browse species. This is in an order for protecting caribou. The premise is less moose food = less moose = less wolves that also pray on caribou. This new technique for caribou management covers most of the Mackenzie Timber supply area as well as a large area north of Fort st James.
The Kennedy siding caribou heard (just south of Mackenzie) is being managed slightly differently. The government is managing to a lower moose population there through hunting. They did not remove the calf hunt in 7-16 and 7-23. Also these units have higher numbers of LEH draws in those areas to encourage more hunting of moose in those areas. I know a few people that hunt that area on the east side of highway 97 north of bear lake and have said it can be hard to find animals.

[Walking Buffalo]

I'm a Forester in Mackenzie and have spent lots of time trying to get my head around this one. I'm surprised it hasnt been more of an issue with people who hunt moose.
Couple years ago the government imposed orders on logging companies that basically say at lower elevations (moose winter range) there can be very little moose browse. Logging companies have to do very intense brushing treatment to prevent the growth of moose browse species. This is in an order for protecting caribou. The premise is less moose food = less moose = less wolves that also pray on caribou. This new technique for caribou management covers most of the Mackenzie Timber supply area as well as a large area north of Fort st James.
The Kennedy siding caribou heard (just south of Mackenzie) is being managed slightly differently. The government is managing to a lower moose population there through hunting. They did not remove the calf hunt in 7-16 and 7-23. Also these units have higher numbers of LEH draws in those areas to encourage more hunting of moose in those areas. I know a few people that hunt that area on the east side of highway 97 north of bear lake and have said it can be hard to find animals.

Kill Moose AND Kill Trees (which kill habitat for other species) to save Caribou from the wolves....

There was an Old Lady.....

How was the Brush killed? Poison?

[ve7iuq]

Wouldn't it be more effective and more controllable to just kill the wolves?

Oh, we can't do that anymore, because we don't eat wolves and we can only shoot what will eat!
For an accurate account of what the province of BC did about too many wolves in the 1950s and /60s, see the book, "Outposts and Bush Planes," by a BC author. Contact the publisher, Hancock House Publishers.

[Weatherby Fan]

Sounds a little ridiculous to me why would you no target real problem. And eliminate the wolves after all they are the culprits.

Oh my gosh, you wicked wicked man, you want to control the wolf population, sick *******s you are !

[northof49]

This plan is F’n ret....ard....ed. Will end up with no moose, no caribou, no deer. Reduce the wolves as in the past and all ungulates prosper. A life is a life......a wolf is no more important than a moose any way. Deal with problem at source, anything else is just plain stupid.

[bearvalley]

This plan is F’n ret....ard....ed. Will end up with no moose, no caribou, no deer. Reduce the wolves as in the past and all ungulates prosper. A life is a life......a wolf is no more important than a moose any way. Deal with problem at source, anything else is just plain stupid.

You pretty well nailed it.

[Cordillera]

In the Kennedy siding example described above there is a wolf reduction program that also covers the nearby herds quintette Moberly and Scott. Combination of First Nations ground trappers and aerial. Somewhere between 100 and 150 wolves removed each year for the last three years. And all three caribou herds are growing.

The biologists advocate that all different aspects have to be addressed at the same time. Protect caribou habitat, deal with immediate predator risk (usually but not always wolves) and reduce alternate prey levels (usually moose but not always) to something that is closer to what would exist if we didnt have so much logging and didn't have so many groceries from the early seral forests. And prevent access routes like seismic lines, snowmobile trails that make a wolf more successful.

That is the science. It clearly is a moral and ethical judgement about where you want to do these things and what you get for it. This caribou recipe will not help moose. It may not help caribou...but it will be more likely to keep caribou where they are otherwise doomed.

[northof49]

Problem is the moose numbers are just not there anymore. The wolves are the problem and their numbers need to be managed and in a more timely manner. It was well known that wolf numbers were exploding for last 15yrs and yet little was done. Now to further reduce moose numbers that are arleady in significant decline is stupid. Need to deal with the real issue....the wolves. The science tends to over complicate the obvious....or perhaps is is more about managing the optics.

[Brez]

In the Kennedy siding example described above there is a wolf reduction program that also covers the nearby herds quintette Moberly and Scott. Combination of First Nations ground trappers and aerial. Somewhere between 100 and 150 wolves removed each year for the last three years. And all three caribou herds are growing.

The biologists advocate that all different aspects have to be addressed at the same time. Protect caribou habitat, deal with immediate predator risk (usually but not always wolves) and reduce alternate prey levels (usually moose but not always) to something that is closer to what would exist if we didnt have so much logging and didn't have so many groceries from the early seral forests. And prevent access routes like seismic lines, snowmobile trails that make a wolf more successful.

That is the science. It clearly is a moral and ethical judgement about where you want to do these things and what you get for it. This caribou recipe will not help moose. It may not help caribou...but it will be more likely to keep caribou where they are otherwise doomed.

You nailed it imo.

[Greenthumbed]

How do we deal with the wolves?

Nobody really wants to hunt them. Very few hunters actively pursue wolves. And why would they? Can't eat them. The antihunting crowd will jump down any hunters throat that thinks about hunting wolves. Some hunters shoot wolves if they see them, but that's not enough to reduce the numbers.

Trappers are on the decline. It's not nearly as popular a pursuit as the old days. I'm not sure where the price of a wolf pelt is at, but I'm sure it's not great.

So, what is the solution?

[Bugle M In]

Considering that the NDP are in control right at the moment (not that it mattered with the Libs either),
nothing is going to happen....jeez, who knows, they may reduce the wolf bag limit??!!
Really, in all honesty....use the SSS method (shoot, shovel, shut up)...but instead of shoot,
you supplement 1080, but shhhhhhhh!
And ya, I know, it puts a few other critters at risk....but....it's the truth.
Otherwise, get out there and just hunt wolves exclusively.
Thinking your going to see a wolf, or take a wolf while you are out there deer or elk hunting, just doesn't happen.
Just luck if it does, but won't make a dent/difference.

[303savage]

What the frack kind of drugs are they using. Sounds kind of wizard of OZ to me.

[gcreek]

Thinking the wolves have already got a good handle on this idea. Somehow, no one explained for them to leave the caribou alone for the present.

[303savage]

Wouldn't it be more effective and more controllable to just kill the wolves?

It would make more sense, I wonder what the person was smoking when they thought that up.
Remove an alternate food source for wolves so they only have the caribou feed on.

[Linksman313]

[QUOTE=Rob Chipman;1931743]
I'm not certain that going after moose was the conscious second choice of the bios, but I do know (as we all do) that shooting wolves is problematic.
QUOTE]

Pardon the ignorance Rob, other than splintering packs when Alpha's go down I do not know what is problematic about shooting wolves?
Is their scientific research done in this field? My sister and family have taken part in a massive wolf cull in Northern Manitoba (Cranberry Portage) for the past 5 years and have had dramatic resurgence in Moose cow/calf survival rates. The only issue they are having is uninvited and non-guided American hunters poaching what little moose have come back into the territory.
Links

[Rob Chipman]

No need to beg pardon. I'm saying wolves are problematic to shoot strictly from the PR point of view, which I think the bios referenced in their report (and if not, I've seen it referenced elsewhere).

The practical challenges exist, but I'm sure they can be overcome (as you indicate).

Any documentary evidence of the Cranberry Portage project? It'd be handy to see documented numbers of how many wolves killed and what the moose pops did in return.


You know what the counter argument is: wolves and prey manage themselves beautifully and don't require human management. Didn't you read Never Cry Wolf? (Funny how the same people who say animals manage themselves will light their hair on fire when a report comes out from the Auditor General that the government hasn't been managing animals properly. It's almost like they don't listen to themselves.)

[gcreek]

It would make more sense, I wonder what the person was smoking when they thought that up.
Remove an alternate food source for wolves so they only have the caribou feed on.

As I have stated before, the "studiers" don't want to come up with a "professional" solution. If the public was ever informed that wolves were essentially killing everything they were capable of eating, a solution to thin the packs would have to be made and the study funds will dry up.

Follow the money, there will be more spent now with the current governments.

[recondo]

Perhaps we should restrict snowmobiling, where caribou’s live, as the biggest issue is creating super highways from the valley bottom to the top of the mountain for wolves. Normally it would require a lot of work and energy for a pack a wolves to get to winter caribou habitat, but when we allow snowmobiling, we create an easy alternative for the wolf and therefore they will use it. The government won,t restrict snowmobiling though, as it is a cash cow and therefore shall not be slaughtered.

[emerson]

Perhaps we should restrict snowmobiling, where caribou’s live, as the biggest issue is creating super highways from the valley bottom to the top of the mountain for wolves. Normally it would require a lot of work and energy for a pack a wolves to get to winter caribou habitat, but when we allow snowmobiling, we create an easy alternative for the wolf and therefore they will use it. The government won,t restrict snowmobiling though, as it is a cash cow and therefore shall not be slaughtered.
Snowmobile prohibitions already place in many areas.

[gcreek]

Snowmobile prohibitions already place in many areas.

Truth to that. Mountain caribou spend a lot of the winter in the forested areas surrounding their higher summer range. Wolves can travel quite easily to the caribou herds in this area without the help of snowmobile tracks, although they will take the easiest route available.

The experts will use any reason or excuse to not actually do a concerted wolf cull.

[horshur]

There was trail cam pictures of this..wolf on sled tracks Quesnel lake. Guess who's sled track? The biologists not shitting you.

[firebird]

They did this in Ontario, gave out lots of moose licenses to try and help the woodland caribou. Then they went 'oops we killed to many moose' and severally cut the moose tags. As for the caribou in Ontario they are not huntable anyways and most likely never will be and few and far between, not becessarily in the areas that they wanted a low moose population or accessible by your average hunter.

So IMO it's a load of poo. Bears and wolves just eat what they can get doesn't matter what. If the moose are gone they'll eat the caribou.

[Bugle M In]

I can see what they were trying to do....but.....wtf.
Just remove the packs in the area....and further out...and continue to observe and see if new packs are coming in.
I am sure packs would have to be removed yearly.....but so what....just gitter done!