region 5 hunting season 2017

[srupp]

With hunting season roughly 1 month away..and most fires still burning, more starting each week.these fires really cover a significant portion of region 5.most animals will be dealing with smoke, fire, loss of habitat home range extreme stress..separation of familly groups, herds.moving animals into new , strange territory perhaps with less food sources less nutrients..no one knows..as fires are paramount at this time .
It will also concentrate the remaining animals in smaller areas..how many animals have perished is still only a guess .
With all these losses, unknowns the well being of these animals should be, must be priority.
It will be hard on guide outfitters in this region..however..my personal view is when in doubt ....error on the side of conservation..future of all animals.

Until the scope of this tremendous fire season is carefully evaluated..loss of wildlife and habitat is properly determined as is how these fires have concentrated the hunt able big game.as well as safety to even enter into some of these MU regions..especially in the areas West of the Fraser River.
We talk about how to put more game into the field.the stress may influence even this year's rut?
Perhaps we could lead by example..BCWF..consider putting forward the thought process of suspending, eliminating, legislating the complete big game hunting in region 5 for the remainder of 2017 .
Completely eliminating ALL hunting.
For first nations the replacement of any hunting with the federal gov't supplying a replacement" single animal..beef provided from local cattle ranches deeply affected by loss of winter grazing, and feed supply.
No trading or selling..subsistence only.federally funded.
As for guides..outfitters compensated for a legislated suspension of all hunting .booked hunts be covered.
I expect raceaus extreme views contrary to this suggestion.
In the long run its tremendously less expensive to just do nothing and leave everything as was..but all is not as was..the truth is we do not know..no one does at this time..and until the entire situation is carefully examined and a solution that ensures the best outcome in the interest of all wildlife ...err" on the side of certainty.i am prepared emotionally to go elsewhere to hunt..i too have been as susisstence hunter my entire life..i. .we have options..giving biologists time to evaluate appropriate responses to these losses .
This is not the only solution? But with 30 days? Till open season..pretty tight schedule.
Suggesting this puts us the hunters in the decision process..demonstrating our concern for all wildlife..
Talk is cheap..action is unresistable. .lead by example..part of the process..
As certainly something will be done.
Cheers
Srupp

[Big Lew]

I'm also of the same mind Steven, but I've found that there are those that couldn't care
less about the future, even tomorrow, if they can harvest an animal today, and even if it
was the last living representative of the species they were after. I'm also afraid the hunters
with this mindset will read "It will also concentrate the remaining animals in smaller areas..'
and rush into those areas they think the concentrations might be so they can get in on killing
them before others wipe them out. Some of the comments I've read within hunting forums,
including this one, have reinforced my coming to this conclusion.

[Jagermeister]

I draw the same conclusion. Sure glad that I hunted in past times as the hunting opportunity is swiftly dwindling as time marches on.

[srupp]

Hi Dave..years..actually decades ago i spent a week..setting out apples, nets and helping net some California bighorn sheep from the junction herd..the herd was healthy and robust numbers..some clever biologist decided to transplant some of these sheep to USA just in case sometime in the distant future we needed to repatriate due to unforseen devestating losses.
Well a few years ago those 700 sheep in the junction herd were mostly gone..so the decision to bring back some decedent's of the original transplants was acomplished"
Some foresight was a great ace in the hole..for wildlife..even if it was decades later.
Never asked or learned how these sheep learned the migration patterns? Tag along?
The thinking a head truly paid off.
Lets think ahead..get the facts..ensure what's best for wildlife as best we can...
Just thinking out loud.
Srupp

[KBC]

A ban on big game hunting wouldn't change my success rate in 5-1 around the family cabin hahaha...

[goatdancer]

Unfortunately, the powers that be will probably not act in a sane and sensible manner. Back in the late 90's there was a massive winter kill in parts of the southern interior (8-15). The very next season the LEH for whitetail does still remained at over 200 per zone. I was out hunting that fall and only ran across 1 small WT doe in a week of hunting in a normally very productive area. There was no will to close the season to protect the few critters that had survived.

[horshur]

the animals evolved with fire..this is normal in there DNA. It is us hand wringing not them. Go hunting when the bush becomes safe and quit worrying so much.

[Cyrus]

if it stays dry into September hunting will be closed...as it should...at least in Region 5.

[srupp]

That the fires are not affecting wildlife is not viable..the animals can not survive in the fire..fact..
That the one original fire in Ashcroft has now burned north through several valleys.Clinton..Loon Lake..now enough to Green Lake putting highway 24 south all either on alert or order
...every day literally hundreds of birds were observed flying north ahead of the fire..daily.
Animals have either perished or fled to valleys away..10, s of kilometers..tired..stressed.desperate..
The west Chilcotin..Kleena Kleene..east to the Fraser..over that..to Highway 97 east of that.
DUGAN lake..Spokane lake..north past Coyote creek Wildwood north to Lyne creek....
Lots better informed accuratly up to date..
Some idea to help ranchers that will be hurt by rising prices and rapidly dissappear ing feed forcing sell off into a already bad market..supplying one of these beef to first nations takes any argument..well ligimat argument away in these once in 100 year disaster.the gov't is already acknowledgement that they have some responsibility financially..as well as fiduciary responsibility for fn..
Closing down all hunting will need to also acknowledge and compensate guide outfitters that livelihood depends on big game.
I'm sure there are better ideas.but someone is eventually going to deal with rapidly approaching big game hunting season..
Srupp

[HarryToolips]

Stevens right I think, for this season....unfortunately, it will put greater hunting pressure on other regions, especially region 3 I'm guessing...

[HarryToolips]

Give it a few years though after these fires and I'll bet the deer numbers in these areas will flourish..

[boxhitch]

Thats the thing about the current regs...for the most part
They allow for the take of a particular portion of the herd that is deemed to be surplus , that will not be missed in the big picture. Antler restrictions assure there is still breeding stock available to get the job done.
Agreed, Mule Deer does numbers will be hurt so the take of them should be stopped, but that was being said well ahead of the current situation.
White tails, well they will proliferate regardless, and will continue to expand.
Sheep......again the regs control what is available to hunt by the regulated hunter, and though success may well diminish after the fires, the ewes are protected by regs, and the rams will do what they always do.
The fires may affect a population , but it occurs across the board and doesn't target a particular sect of the critters. Male/ female ratios are the key, and will take years to verify.

[boxhitch]

The sheep relocations that occurred years ago also took a portion of the herd but across the board again, ewes and rams.
At the time, it was deemed there were an excess of sheep on the available habitat, and removing a few was a benefit to those remaining, a win/win
The continued decline in the Fraser pop just re-affirms that their are larger issues on the landscape

[Big Lew]

That the fires are not affecting wildlife is not viable..the animals can not survive in the fire..fact..
That the one original fire in Ashcroft has now burned north through several valleys.Clinton..Loon Lake..now enough to Green Lake putting highway 24 south all either on alert or order
...every day literally hundreds of birds were observed flying north ahead of the fire..daily.
Animals have either perished or fled to valleys away..10, s of kilometers..tired..stressed.desperate..
The west Chilcotin..Kleena Kleene..east to the Fraser..over that..to Highway 97 east of that.
DUGAN lake..Spokane lake..north past Coyote creek Wildwood north to Lyne creek....
Lots better informed accuratly up to date..
Some idea to help ranchers that will be hurt by rising prices and rapidly dissappear ing feed forcing sell off into a already bad market..supplying one of these beef to first nations takes any argument..well ligimat argument away in these once in 100 year disaster.the gov't is already acknowledgement that they have some responsibility financially..as well as fiduciary responsibility for fn..
Closing down all hunting will need to also acknowledge and compensate guide outfitters that livelihood depends on big game.
I'm sure there are better ideas.but someone is eventually going to deal with rapidly approaching big game hunting season..
Srupp

Many hunters don't seem to realize, or even care, that we as recreational hunters are also part
of the long term sustainability of the creatures we kill. No one is suggesting that those animals
can't replenish their numbers after a fire, but it will take a very long time if we 'kick them when
they're down'. Sacrificing one or two years of reduced hunting of them will give them time to do so,
giving hunters good opportunities years before they would have otherwise. Many guides know how
many animals are in their area, and even can identify a lot of them in. They know the country isn't the
'proverbial purse' where there's an unlimited supply hiding somewhere just waiting to take the place
of those animals that get shot. Like farming, a crop or herd has to be managed intelligently and with
care to remain healthy and sustainable. Unfortunately, there are those that are too selfish and shortsighted
so become part of the problem rather then part of the solution.

[LBM]

With hunting season roughly 1 month away..and most fires still burning, more starting each week.these fires really cover a significant portion of region 5.most animals will be dealing with smoke, fire, loss of habitat home range extreme stress..separation of familly groups, herds.moving animals into new , strange territory perhaps with less food sources less nutrients..no one knows..as fires are paramount at this time .
It will also concentrate the remaining animals in smaller areas..how many animals have perished is still only a guess .
With all these losses, unknowns the well being of these animals should be, must be priority.
It will be hard on guide outfitters in this region..however..my personal view is when in doubt ....error on the side of conservation..future of all animals.

Until the scope of this tremendous fire season is carefully evaluated..loss of wildlife and habitat is properly determined as is how these fires have concentrated the hunt able big game.as well as safety to even enter into some of these MU regions..especially in the areas West of the Fraser River.
We talk about how to put more game into the field.the stress may influence even this year's rut?
Perhaps we could lead by example..BCWF..consider putting forward the thought process of suspending, eliminating, legislating the complete big game hunting in region 5 for the remainder of 2017 .
Completely eliminating ALL hunting.
For first nations the replacement of any hunting with the federal gov't supplying a replacement" single animal..beef provided from local cattle ranches deeply affected by loss of winter grazing, and feed supply.
No trading or selling..subsistence only.federally funded.
As for guides..outfitters compensated for a legislated suspension of all hunting .booked hunts be covered.
I expect raceaus extreme views contrary to this suggestion.
In the long run its tremendously less expensive to just do nothing and leave everything as was..but all is not as was..the truth is we do not know..no one does at this time..and until the entire situation is carefully examined and a solution that ensures the best outcome in the interest of all wildlife ...err" on the side of certainty.i am prepared emotionally to go elsewhere to hunt..i too have been as susisstence hunter my entire life..i. .we have options..giving biologists time to evaluate appropriate responses to these losses .
This is not the only solution? But with 30 days? Till open season..pretty tight schedule.
Suggesting this puts us the hunters in the decision process..demonstrating our concern for all wildlife..
Talk is cheap..action is unresistable. .lead by example..part of the process..
As certainly something will be done.
Cheers
Srupp
Why stop at region 5 as some have mentioned the fires etc may cause increased pressure in other regions.
As for compensation to outfitters , NO, there is thousands of others and there buisnesses that have been effected by
this all over B.C.

[Wild one]

Hunters at times need to use personal ethics over hunting regs at times and choose if it is right to hunt certain population and this should go beyond what is going on this year do to fires.


As for the outfitters I have no disrespect towards them and wish them the best do to the issues the fires have caused but don't support govt compensation. I was self employed for much of my life and got hit with hard times even do to weather but did not expect or receive compensation. Unfortanatly there is risks involved in being self employed.

I think many business have suffered from these fires. Timber lots, grazing, access to mine claims effected, traplines burnt, and GO territories burnt are all bush related things effected. I feel for them but do we compensate them all ?

[Golddust]

Hunters at times need to use personal ethics over hunting regs at times and choose if it is right to hunt certain population and this should go beyond what is going on this year do to fires.


?

Well said about hunter ethics - thats a very important point that people overlook. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. With this being said it would be nice if it were easier for us to obtain information regarding the populations in the various regions and units so we could make better informed decisions.

[Wild one]

Well said about hunter ethics - thats a very important point that people overlook. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. With this being said it would be nice if it were easier for us to obtain information regarding the populations in the various regions and units so we could make better informed decisions.

Unfortunately lack of funding for bios to do more in depth studies on populations makes this info basicly non exsistant. Many areas go long periods of time between counts even so often bios are stuck resorting to estimations that are not always accurate. BCs terrain does not make it an easy place to collect data expecially with piss poor funding

[HarryToolips]

^^^^very true....here is the last estimate ....

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/management-issues/docs/2014_Provincial%20Ungulate%20Numbers%20Oct%2030_Fi nal.pdf

[LBM]

Well said about hunter ethics - thats a very important point that people overlook. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. With this being said it would be nice if it were easier for us to obtain information regarding the populations in the various regions and units so we could make better informed decisions.

"just because you can doesn't mean you should" is something you should apply to your predator thread as well.

[MattB]

the animals evolved with fire..this is normal in there DNA. It is us hand wringing not them. Go hunting when the bush becomes safe and quit worrying so much.

Can't disagree with this. Theres still deer hanging out acting normal at the burn at loon lake. Thìs fall the deer should be fine. This winter they will have to learn new habitats with resources capable of supporting them. Regardless there will be deer and great habitat in the coming years!

[boxhitch]

......... With this being said it would be nice if it were easier for us to obtain information regarding the populations in the various regions and units so we could make better informed decisions.Hunter effort and success rates is also an important factor in how population health is gauged. If year after year a set group of hunters bring home the tbones with roughly the equal effort, that tells a story.

Hunters take way too much credit for being able to swing the pendulum on game pops.
But it makes for good ethics chat

[Fisher-Dude]

We shot deer with massive bellies at one end of a large fire where the green cabbage was exploding, as the fire still smoldered on the other end. Herds of 10 - 15 mule deer were daily sightings for us.

Recovery of ungulates into burn areas is natural and surprisingly quick, quicker than most realize.

These animals have evolved in fire-dependent ecosystems for much longer than we've been here hunting them.

As Horshur says, we're wringing our hands but the animals are looking forward to a normal ecosystem that they've been waiting decades for.

[Wagonmaster]

Steven. I'm wondering if your statement "the animals can not survive in the fire..fact" is correct. I have seen deer cover a lot of ground in a very short period of time and I'm guessing that they will be able to move ahead of the flames without too much trouble. Consider the bear in the Ft. Mac video recently posted where the black bear was back at the bait barrel days after fire rage through the area. Conceivably, two or three fires burning toward each other have the potential to trap animals, but being unable to escape even that situation is probably rare. I may be wrong, but I hope not.

[Salty]

the animals evolved with fire..this is normal in there DNA. It is us hand wringing not them. Go hunting when the bush becomes safe and quit worrying so much.

This. And not just in region 5 but all the areas affected by large fires will only mean an increase in grazing animal pops in the next few years. The fall rains are going to flush out green growth like crazy in the next couple months they'll go in to the winter in fine shape. They've evolved with fire for thousands of years this is no big deal.

[srupp]

Exellent points on down the road explosion of growth..have seen this from the chopper in past much smaller fires ..pretty difficult when it's still burning..and no rain diminishing daylight hours for growth.
I would suggest this is different in that it's one of the 2 largest fires in area burning at once in 100 years .
Great points by numerous guys..it's really early..too early to tell the degree of deaths of wildlife..even guesses. .and yet hunting season is 4 weeks away..a lot will still be burning.
The stress..current relocation ..until food sources start to grow back. .for those that did survive..
How much loss of animals, habitat..how much more stress , harvest can be tolerated..if any..
We get one chance to get this right or numbers could be down for at least a few years..
I am concerned..especially for moose poulations on west side they have a extreme time with 24..7..year round hunting with already declining numbers perdom7natly by road access..these hundreds ds of cat roads will not help.
Good conversation. .different perspectives..again ethics does play a roll..didnt consider buying a Beef for our familly..just thought of going elsewhere for deer moose.
Srupp

[Bugle M In]

Sorry Steven, respectfully. I have to disagree with your opinion on this entire matter.
Maybe the big game may move....for now...to some other locations, but in the long run, this fire is the best thing that
could ever of happened.....for wildlife.

Also, I don't recall any kind of "thought reaction" to you original post, when the Kelowna fire happened.
Sounds like wildlife is just fine up in Kelowna...even better then before....

Also....look at Yellowstone....let's not forget that fire....
Look at all the benefits it had for wildlife.

Pine beetle and over logging (due to pine beetle)...in many areas...has been nothing but detrimental to wildlife.
Roads are littered all over the plateau around cache creek and Clinton due to pine beetle/logging etc.
This fire has been long over due.

God, if a fire could happen up in the area where I hunt in the EK, it would be the best thing ever for wildlife...
It's been well over 100 years+ since that area has seen a fire, and pine beetle has taken over, and now the logging,
granted, the logging has been much more "reserved" in that area, but everytime another road is added up there as well.

I appreciate much of what you post, and the efforts you put in to help etc, but I couldn't disagree with you more on
this one....
Just my opinion...BMI

[HighCountryBC]

Sorry Steven, respectfully. I have to disagree with your opinion on this entire matter.
Maybe the big game may move....for now...to some other locations, but in the long run, this fire is the best thing that
could ever of happened.....for wildlife.

Also, I don't recall any kind of "thought reaction" to you original post, when the Kelowna fire happened.
Sounds like wildlife is just fine up in Kelowna...even better then before....

Also....look at Yellowstone....let's not forget that fire....
Look at all the benefits it had for wildlife.

Pine beetle and over logging (due to pine beetle)...in many areas...has been nothing but detrimental to wildlife.
Roads are littered all over the plateau around cache creek and Clinton due to pine beetle/logging etc.
This fire has been long over due.

God, if a fire could happen up in the area where I hunt in the EK, it would be the best thing ever for wildlife...
It's been well over 100 years+ since that area has seen a fire, and pine beetle has taken over, and now the logging,
granted, the logging has been much more "reserved" in that area, but everytime another road is added up there as well.

I appreciate much of what you post, and the efforts you put in to help etc, but I couldn't disagree with you more on
this one....
Just my opinion...BMI

Looks like you get it fella.

The fires in the Cariboo cover a relatively small area of Region 5 and, as you said, are going to be the best thing to happen to the wildlife in that area. The loss of homes/property/livestock is significant and I truly feel for all those affected but that is a separate issue.

Fires happen, wildlife deals with it and will eventually flourish. We've been talking about applying fire to the landscape for far too long and now nature has taken things into it's own hands.

[HighCountryBC]

We shot deer with massive bellies at one end of a large fire where the green cabbage was exploding, as the fire still smoldered on the other end. Herds of 10 - 15 mule deer were daily sightings for us.

Recovery of ungulates into burn areas is natural and surprisingly quick, quicker than most realize.

These animals have evolved in fire-dependent ecosystems for much longer than we've been here hunting them.

As Horshur says, we're wringing our hands but the animals are looking forward to a normal ecosystem that they've been waiting decades for.

Bingo. The ecosystem restoration we are seeing first hand right now is more than we could have ever bargained for and will certainly help to speed up wildlife population recoveries.

[srupp]

Great points.i do get what it will do down the road.point I think might be missed. .it's still burning..no chance? For much regrowth this year . definitely in next 60 days or so.
Does anyone here know the mortality numbers? Neither do I, nor biologists.some of these fires raced for many kilometers in one day.
And there is currently a ATV, MOTORCYCLE, ban..in someplaces your not even allowed in certain areas.
When i considered this view, question..i realized all the dead fall combustible materials now gone, trees burned so that sunlight can reach the ground..yes burning will help in a certain time frame.
Considering most fires are still burning..some still out of control? Or at least minimally contained..with more evacuation alerts orders..allowing hunters into areas just vastly complicates a already troubled time .and truly adds to the remaining wildlife stress..and outcome potential.
Like I said I don't know the numbers..but it is much bigger problem than some may realize. Bigger area of region 5 burned than in past 100 years.plus the timing is critical in this situation..it is still burning in a lot of areas with more back burning scheduled and tremendously smokey..tick tick.
Thank you for extreme kindness in your replies..started thinking..and realized far more intelligent knowlegable experienced folks here than me..i have yet to meet anyone who has experienced this level and scope of devestating fires so late ..with lightening expected this coming week and absolutely parched conditions everywhere.

I admire the optimism , I know Mother nature uses fires for habitat improvement..fact is we have become too good at putting smaller fires out creating massive fuel supplies on the ground creating the potential for the perfect storm..which we are currently experiencing.
I too feel spring bear 2018 the growth from regeneration..added nutrients..missing thick canopies open forest floors. .is all welcome and great news.
But my concern is still for Sept 1..Nov 2017...unprecedented situation..meaning hasn't happened like this before..

I know..hope the animals will eventually do well., do they need some this fall?
Appreciate all the replies..some very valid eventual outcomes.
The grass habitat for Californian bighorn sheep has needed burn offs of mature grasslands for decades..a controlled burn was planned done? Last year?
Size..timing..and still burning..Precipice. .to Ashcroft..Little fort..Loon Lake to Lynne creek pretty significant areas still burning.

Cheers..and coughs. .very smokey here today..

Again appreciate all the input..not hand wringing..just concerned and thinking..
Srupp

[palmer]

Steve: love the thought process. But I still think if we had a complete closure of any Female moose harvest by all groups and with the great habit we will have going forward, you would have plenty of moose in no time.
I have my doubts this will ever happen, so you may be right that the only way we will get anything done is if ALL and I say ALL user groups are closed for a certain amount of time and then the harvest is strictly controlled.
Reality is that we are still years away from getting enough co operation to get anything really done between the user groups.

[srupp]

I asked a question or 2..and had a suggestion..was prepared for answers i don't know currently..i guess my lifetime of training always left me erring" on the patients behalf..
I'm 60 and have not witnessed an even of this magnitude..and it's not over..

Thank you for the restrained informed oppinions with politeness..interesting times indeed..
I agree that female moose harvest plays a pivotal role in managing..so do unreported no quotas..
Add in pine beetle kill..
Add in preditor increases mostly because of forestry roads and large open areas..much easier for them to spot prey at distances and plan execute an attack..
There are more predators..bears..both grizzly and black..wolves..not sure on cougars
It may..again be death by 1,000 cuts..piece by piece..again bucket is just as empty with 15 holes as it is if kicked over..just takes a bit longer.
The last smaller fire on the West side of Alexis Creek hwy 20 I never did see the spontaneous return as reported here..I flew once a week by chopper..never see n one animal that year..the next year stopped to watch a moose in the burn but it was a year with snow, rain, time between.
I'm a lousy dancer but I'm very good with time..from 3 minutes of life to weeks before hunting season..
It may be the best event in 100 years for grasslands and sheep next year...and for decades..
Nice to have an important discussion about important issues with civility. .I'm pleased with those that have experienced this and predictions of animals back to home ranges soon after fires end.
With fires growing in size and numbers..new evacuations.land planned prescribed burns and the days going by..plus anticipated and reported thunderstorms with lightening for this week coming..it's a big hill to climb for all wildlife..
Never having this experience I was and am concerned on the short haul., this season those who have faced this reassurances are appreciated..thank you.
Srupp

[Walking Buffalo]

Have a cold one Srupp. ;)

[Big Lew]

Well, as I earlier said, I appreciate your concerns and have them as well. Not for the long term, but
as was said, fire is needed and the growth sprouting from burned areas helps animals rebuild their
health and numbers. What I'm concerned with is short term. Imagine the quick recovery that
would take place if the animals were allowed to do follow the natural cycle without heavy pressure
on the breeding stock still around after massive fires such as what's happening in the cariboo this year.
I've seen grouse populations lose their entire year of chicks several times and they do re-build their
numbers, but in areas that hunters have hammered the adult breeding stock, it often takes several
years. Like a bucket with a hole in it, pouring the same amount or less into it doesn't get you a full pail.

[srupp]

[QUOIE=WalIing Buffalo;19252e a coldoptimismpp. ;)[/QUOTE]


Lol wife has other plans for my day..weedeating..now raking..
Question..if this event threatened wildlife numbers..even for 2..3 years how would we know? And when..?
Lol Impressed with the overwhelming optimism...yuk raking...how do you start a rake? Lol
Srupp

[mpotzold]

Sorry Steven, respectfully. I have to disagree with your opinion on this entire matter.
Maybe the big game may move....for now...to some other locations, but in the long run, this fire is the best thing that
could ever of happened.....for wildlife.

Also, I don't recall any kind of "thought reaction" to you original post, when the Kelowna fire happened.
Sounds like wildlife is just fine up in Kelowna...even better then before....

Also....look at Yellowstone....let's not forget that fire....
Look at all the benefits it had for wildlife.

Pine beetle and over logging (due to pine beetle)...in many areas...has been nothing but detrimental to wildlife.
Roads are littered all over the plateau around cache creek and Clinton due to pine beetle/logging etc.
This fire has been long over due.

God, if a fire could happen up in the area where I hunt in the EK, it would be the best thing ever for wildlife...
It's been well over 100 years+ since that area has seen a fire, and pine beetle has taken over, and now the logging,
granted, the logging has been much more "reserved" in that area, but everytime another road is added up there as well.

I appreciate much of what you post, and the efforts you put in to help etc, but I couldn't disagree with you more on
this one....
Just my opinion...BMI

http://i.imgur.com/3evmiae.png

[Golddust]

I think alot of guys are getting caught up on the benefits of the fires years down the road. Yes, absolutely the fire creates new growth and with that new growth comes an immense ammount of forrage. The problem is that there has been no seed dispersal into these areas. It's mid-late summer all the plants have stopped their reproductive means except for a few weeds. These fires are occuring in important wintering ranges. We're also coming off a winter that was quite harsh. These animals have been stressed for close to a year now and with the lack of forage made available by the fire there is a good chance they will be stressed for close to 18 months. Thats 2 ruts, 2 winters, 2 batches of fawns/calves. Along with this the devastation by the fires will make it easier for the predators now that there is reduced deep timber as well as the ground will be easier for them to cover. In the grand scheme of things if you lose 1 year of hunting in a few areas its not the end of the world. But 1 year of no hunting pressure could be immense for these animals. I'm not saying that we should make this a normal occurrence, but in this circumstance because of how rough the environmental factors have been it could do some serious good for the regeneration of some struggling populations.

[Bugle M In]

Great points.i do get what it will do down the road.point I think might be missed. .it's still burning..no chance? For much regrowth this year . definitely in next 60 days or so.
Does anyone here know the mortality numbers? Neither do I, nor biologists.some of these fires raced for many kilometers in one day.
And there is currently a ATV, MOTORCYCLE, ban..in someplaces your not even allowed in certain areas.
When i considered this view, question..i realized all the dead fall combustible materials now gone, trees burned so that sunlight can reach the ground..yes burning will help in a certain time frame.
Considering most fires are still burning..some still out of control? Or at least minimally contained..with more evacuation alerts orders..allowing hunters into areas just vastly complicates a already troubled time .and truly adds to the remaining wildlife stress..and outcome potential.
Like I said I don't know the numbers..but it is much bigger problem than some may realize. Bigger area of region 5 burned than in past 100 years.plus the timing is critical in this situation..it is still burning in a lot of areas with more back burning scheduled and tremendously smokey..tick tick.
Thank you for extreme kindness in your replies..started thinking..and realized far more intelligent knowlegable experienced folks here than me..i have yet to meet anyone who has experienced this level and scope of devestating fires so late ..with lightening expected this coming week and absolutely parched conditions everywhere.

I admire the optimism , I know Mother nature uses fires for habitat improvement..fact is we have become too good at putting smaller fires out creating massive fuel supplies on the ground creating the potential for the perfect storm..which we are currently experiencing.
I too feel spring bear 2018 the growth from regeneration..added nutrients..missing thick canopies open forest floors. .is all welcome and great news.
But my concern is still for Sept 1..Nov 2017...unprecedented situation..meaning hasn't happened like this before..

I know..hope the animals will eventually do well., do they need some this fall?
Appreciate all the replies..some very valid eventual outcomes.
The grass habitat for Californian bighorn sheep has needed burn offs of mature grasslands for decades..a controlled burn was planned done? Last year?
Size..timing..and still burning..Precipice. .to Ashcroft..Little fort..Loon Lake to Lynne creek pretty significant areas still burning.

Cheers..and coughs. .very smokey here today..

Again appreciate all the input..not hand wringing..just concerned and thinking..
Srupp

Qoute, Like I said I don't know the numbers..but it is much bigger problem than some may realize. Bigger area of region 5 burned than in past 100 years.plus the timing is critical in this situation..

A big burn for a big problem.....bingo.....we have had some real "big" declines in population....so....
a real big burn is probably the right cure!!;)

Also, you have helped so many on this website, so you definitely deserve the right for people to disagree with you...
politely and respectfully.

I am sure many of us are all concerned...just some of us see it a different way.
Easy for us, as we aren't living right there in the heart of that event.
From what I have seen....many are saying to hunt the fringes between the burn and the old growth....
It is possible some areas may not see game return to the wintering areas, if they were burned, but they will move on
elsewhere for now....my opinion.
As for wildlife being killed....I guess that all depends "how fast" the fire moved.
Yellowstone did have losses, from what I remember (google would answer that), but, I think that fire "hauled some ass"
at times.
But, look at all the documentaries that came from that fire, and all the positives.
I think at that time, they were amazed at the positive impact, something they had thought would be a disaster for
the park...wildlife...and tourism........not.

[Big Lew]

I think alot of guys are getting caught up on the benefits of the fires years down the road. Yes, absolutely the fire creates new growth and with that new growth comes an immense ammount of forrage. The problem is that there has been no seed dispersal into these areas. It's mid-late summer all the plants have stopped their reproductive means except for a few weeds. These fires are occuring in important wintering ranges. We're also coming off a winter that was quite harsh. These animals have been stressed for close to a year now and with the lack of forage made available by the fire there is a good chance they will be stressed for close to 18 months. Thats 2 ruts, 2 winters, 2 batches of fawns/calves. Along with this the devastation by the fires will make it easier for the predators now that there is reduced deep timber as well as the ground will be easier for them to cover. In the grand scheme of things if you lose 1 year of hunting in a few areas its not the end of the world. But 1 year of no hunting pressure could be immense for these animals. I'm not saying that we should make this a normal occurrence, but in this circumstance because of how rough the environmental factors have been it could do some serious good for the regeneration of some struggling populations.

I'm also very happy that this thread has gone on so long in a polite and mature manner, thanks.
I think what you've posted is pretty close to what Steven, some others, and I have been suggesting.

[Bugle M In]

One thing after this is all said and done, and people have returned home to a back to normal lifestyle...or...
should I say, as normal a lifestyle as possible....is...
Are the forestry companies going to want to come in and start "replanting"??
I hope not...IMO..I hope it grows up in the natural state that mother nature intended it to.
That is where human intervention could screw this all up....IMO

[horshur]

One thing after this is all said and done, and people have returned home to a back to normal lifestyle...or...
should I say, as normal a lifestyle as possible....is...
Are the forestry companies going to want to come in and start "replanting"??
I hope not...IMO..I hope it grows up in the natural state that mother nature intended it to.
That is where human intervention could screw this all up....IMO

after 03 there was grant money for replanting..regen survey showed not needed. Not sure how the grant money was spent but it wasn't on planting.

[Golddust]

One thing after this is all said and done, and people have returned home to a back to normal lifestyle...or...
should I say, as normal a lifestyle as possible....is...
Are the forestry companies going to want to come in and start "replanting"??
I hope not...IMO..I hope it grows up in the natural state that mother nature intended it to.
That is where human intervention could screw this all up....IMO

Agreed. Many of the potential benefits that everyone has mentioned will be lost if we go in and plant...

[HarryToolips]

I think alot of guys are getting caught up on the benefits of the fires years down the road. Yes, absolutely the fire creates new growth and with that new growth comes an immense ammount of forrage. The problem is that there has been no seed dispersal into these areas. It's mid-late summer all the plants have stopped their reproductive means except for a few weeds. These fires are occuring in important wintering ranges. We're also coming off a winter that was quite harsh. These animals have been stressed for close to a year now and with the lack of forage made available by the fire there is a good chance they will be stressed for close to 18 months. Thats 2 ruts, 2 winters, 2 batches of fawns/calves. Along with this the devastation by the fires will make it easier for the predators now that there is reduced deep timber as well as the ground will be easier for them to cover. In the grand scheme of things if you lose 1 year of hunting in a few areas its not the end of the world. But 1 year of no hunting pressure could be immense for these animals. I'm not saying that we should make this a normal occurrence, but in this circumstance because of how rough the environmental factors have been it could do some serious good for the regeneration of some struggling populations.
Keep in mind the OK mtn Park fire, as well as the recent rock creek fire both in region 8, were in wintering ranges - and the ungulate pops in OK mtn area flourished, and the rock creek area ungulates from what I've seen, are doing very well, including mule deer..

[Sitkaspruce]

Animals grow up in a land that is needed to burn in order to regenerate. The elk and deer were back in the black up here after last years fires within a week of it being burned. With in 3 weeks, there was new growth and the elk and deer were all over the place, by the end of September, there was so much green that it was hard to see the black in some places. This year the elk and deer are happy and fat in the burned areas (one was 45000 ha and the other 90000+) Moose are just starting to show up, but they really like it 3-5 year and on wards as that is when their food source really takes off.

Fires are part of the landscape of BC and animals have lived with it for generations. They will survive and continue to live in areas burned and regenerated.

Hunt the burns, you will be surprised at what you see what has all ready started to grow back.

Cheers

SS

[Golddust]

Harry, everyone is in agreeance that the fires are great for the animals in the long term. That fire was 10 years ago. What we are debating now on the short term effects; this year's fires mixed with last years winter, will likely be tough on the animals and maybe we should lay off of them a bit in the areas hit hardest.

Sitka again, I agree, the province needs the fires and our fire suppression efforts are what cause such enormous areas to be burnt in single summers. I forget the tree; but one conifers' cones need the fire fire to germinate. In regards to how quickly the burns greened up I find that surprising and maybe if this is true finding food sources won't be as much of an issue in the areas as some of us believed. However, from my time in university I unfortunately don't believe the areas will be teaming with green pioneer plants in 3 weeks. Hoping what I learned was wrong and your observations are more accurate though.

[Bugle M In]

here you will find a pdf on the 1988 Yellowstone fire.....even on how little wildlife was lost from the fire....
over 1,000,000 hectares!
https://www.nps.gov/yell/planyourvisit/upload/RI_2016_FINAL_Fire_web.pdf

Interesting note:

Only Moose populations declined......why....possibly due to the loss of tree canopy....
sounds likes something that also results here due to some "real heavy logging"......maybe??

[markomoose]

I don't agree with any closures and I'm absolutely 100% positive our government feels the same even though our current government sucks ***. My 2 cents

[Jagermeister]

Hi Dave..years..actually decades ago i spent a week..setting out apples, nets and helping net some California bighorn sheep from the junction herd..the herd was healthy and robust numbers..some clever biologist decided to transplant some of these sheep to USA just in case sometime in the distant future we needed to repatriate due to unforseen devestating losses.
Well a few years ago those 700 sheep in the junction herd were mostly gone..so the decision to bring back some decedent's of the original transplants was acomplished"
Some foresight was a great ace in the hole..for wildlife..even if it was decades later.
Never asked or learned how these sheep learned the migration patterns? Tag along?
The thinking a head truly paid off.
Lets think ahead..get the facts..ensure what's best for wildlife as best we can...
Just thinking out loud.
Srupp
That clever biologist was none other than the late Harold Mitchell. That junction band was the mark in his career.

[Golddust]

Wow, super intersting. Apparently SS was bang on with his statement of the animals moving back to the scortched earth almost immediately after the fire is gone. Really cool and informational case study, thanks Bugle. So it gives evidence that our concerns about the winter are somewhat valid but the new growth was so abundant that the populations rebounded and then continued to increase their populations.

The only real difference between this and Yellowstone is that Yellowstone is free of hunting. I also beleive, at the time, Yellowstone had almost no wolves which play a large role in ungulate mortality. But a more positive comparison in the long run considering everything. Again, thanks. It's nice to have somewhat similar circumstance to compare our current fires to.

[srupp]

The Yellowstone study involves different moisture content of fuel sources. .BC compromises only 10 % of the situations experienced in Yellowstone..so different already..that area experienced numerous fires previous..so our fuel supply was 90 % greater..
The conclusion " there was a unusually high mortality in the winter after the fire, only rain or snow can stop a fire of this size "

The Alberta fire of 2016 in Fort McMurray. Scientist wildlife biologist Lu" Carbyn" that wildlife caught in the path of this fire would have experienced catastrophic losses.and a definate decrease in moose numbers.
However the benifit arrive in 1...3 years..
Not sure what we can learn for the short term..as the Yellowstone fire involved different topography with lower fuel sources haven previously been burned..different species of wood have different moisture contents..different burn rates. .speed of fire advances..

Again all these investigations start after the fires end..in Yellowstone sept 11 by moisture..snow?
Here again slightly different..the fires not only are still burning..are actively increasing, expanding with aggressive growth patterns anticipated by thunderstorm activity predicted next week.
I appreciate that big game, wildlife will move back in shortly..= ? after the fires end..but I'm doubtful they will have any incentive to move back into active burns, or while the ground is still hot from fires.
Having fled 10..20 km. ..to non burning areas..is the reason to return habitat familiarity? At a trade off of no food?
No I don't trust current government..nor will I judge or criticize whatever each hunter choses. ..as i do not yet have the information required for me to make a decision for me.
I appreciate the ideas, information shared in a non judgmental manner by all.i can't make a decision based on information..evidence I don't have.
Did have a cool one..actually 3 bottles of cold clean water.
Thanks guys
Srupp

[Big Lew]

Time will tell...As has been mentioned, these fires in BC the last few years have been
more intense, often moving very fast, and incinerating rather than scorching as they go
compared to fires in the past...usually because of past fire suppression efforts which has
led to unnaturally high buildups of dry fuels. I remember hunting in past burned areas and
they often had many unburned oasis within them, lots of trees that were scorched but still
had foliage, and green vegetation sprouting up everywhere right away. The last few massive
burns I've walked through looked like a nuclear bomb went off, everything incinerated, nothing
seemingly alive, a barren moonscape. Of course in due time regrowth takes place...but not as
quickly as in times past. I've also seen where re-planting has seriously suppressed natural
regrowth for years. Looking at some of these re-planted areas from a high vantage point, they
look like someone's vegetable garden where they have only planted one species. Doing so with
only future logging in mind, not our wildlife or a healthy environment.

[russm86]

Regarding the comment about beef prices being already low and going down, I'm curious what SRUPP has seen/heard on the beef market as it seems to be the opposite of what is really happening? I was just in Alberta for a wedding, on a farm, where I was pretty much the only person who didn't own a ranch/farm, they were mostly beef ranchers/farmers, everyone said the same thing, that beef prices are great for them (high) right now and expect it to go up even more due to a likely reduction in supply due to the losses in the fires here.

On another note, when we had the huge fires around the Kamloops area in 2003, I saw more animals in the freshly burned out areas than anywhere else it seemed and from the numbers I saw that year and the following few years it did not hurt the populations, I actually think they are lower now than they were then.

[GoatGuy]

Looking ahead the issues will be road densities, invasive weeds, and logging practices.

And those all go hand in hand.

Manage them and wildlife will do just fine.

[GoatGuy]

Regarding the comment about beef prices being already low and going down, I'm curious what SRUPP has seen/heard on the beef market as it seems to be the opposite of what is really happening? I was just in Alberta for a wedding, on a farm, where I was pretty much the only person who didn't own a ranch/farm, they were mostly beef ranchers/farmers, everyone said the same thing, that beef prices are great for them (high) right now and expect it to go up even more due to a likely reduction in supply due to the losses in the fires here.

It's a funny industry. Seems it's more about the individual operators then the industry as a whole. People either recognize the macro issues or the micro issues, depending on which best suits their situation.


On another note, when we had the huge fires around the Kamloops area in 2003, I saw more animals in the freshly burned out areas than anywhere else it seemed and from the numbers I saw that year and the following few years it did not hurt the populations, I actually think they are lower now than they were then.

Depends on time and place, some places end up being nuked, but most of the time it seems after the first rain the veg starts to come back and the critters are right behind.

In a pile of our fire maintained ecosystems you would have seen fire history of less than 10 years. After 10 years you get often back to ingrowth and ungulates like deer and elk start to become easier prey for predators. This is even more true today as conifers like pine, which would have historically been 'burned out' as saplings get the chance to establish themselves and take over the landscape.

[Fisher-Dude]

Wow, super intersting. Apparently SS was bang on with his statement of the animals moving back to the scortched earth almost immediately after the fire is gone. Really cool and informational case study, thanks Bugle. So it gives evidence that our concerns about the winter are somewhat valid but the new growth was so abundant that the populations rebounded and then continued to increase their populations.

The only real difference between this and Yellowstone is that Yellowstone is free of hunting. I also beleive, at the time, Yellowstone had almost no wolves which play a large role in ungulate mortality. But a more positive comparison in the long run considering everything. Again, thanks. It's nice to have somewhat similar circumstance to compare our current fires to.

These burns provide the perfect habitat for most ungulates to deal with predators.

Moose use their long legs to run through burnt blowdown and escape predators which have to crawl over or under.

Mule deer use the improved sightlines to spot predators at a distance that gives them a chance to bolt.

There is a far higher escapement from predation in burned areas than there is in dense, undisturbed pine forests.

[russm86]

It's a funny industry. Seems it's more about the individual operators then the industry as a whole. People either recognize the macro issues or the micro issues, depending on which best suits their situation.



Depends on time and place, some places end up being nuked, but most of the time it seems after the first rain the veg starts to come back and the critters are right behind.

In a pile of our fire maintained ecosystems you would have seen fire history of less than 10 years. After 10 years you get often back to ingrowth and ungulates like deer and elk start to become easier prey for predators. This is even more true today as conifers like pine, which would have historically been 'burned out' as saplings get the chance to establish themselves and take over the landscape.

Makes sense, I was wondering about timing too, but couldn't remember how late the fires here were still burning in 2003 compared with the ones this year.

[srupp]

Regarding the comment about beef prices being already low and going down, I'm curious what SRUPP has seen/heard on the beef market as it seems to be the opposite of what is really happening? I was just in Alberta for a wedding, on a farm, where I was pretty much the only person who didn't own a ranch/farm, they were mostly beef ranchers/farmers, everyone said the same thing, that beef prices are great for them (high) right now and expect it to go up even more due to a likely reduction in supply due to the losses in the fires here.

On another note, when we had the huge fires around the Kamloops area in 2003, I saw more animals in the freshly burned out areas than anywhere else it seemed and from the numbers I saw that year and the following few years it did not hurt the populations, I actually think they are lower now than they were then.

I was going off an analyst report on the Canadian investment money channel..the beef comodoty expert..who was reporting loss of feed in BC..the south by fires, the north by wetness, Alberta by dryness in some areas wetness in others .
This will cause some ranchers to evaluate costs and availability of feed at any price..so due to ongoing selling some prices are down but by Fall sell dates will have much higher numbers of sell..feeder calves especially. .food costs will eliminate benifit s of feeding and then selling..so many selling so much will drop prices.
Steven

[Sitkaspruce]

Harry, everyone is in agreeance that the fires are great for the animals in the long term. That fire was 10 years ago. What we are debating now on the short term effects; this year's fires mixed with last years winter, will likely be tough on the animals and maybe we should lay off of them a bit in the areas hit hardest.

Sitka again, I agree, the province needs the fires and our fire suppression efforts are what cause such enormous areas to be burnt in single summers. I forget the tree; but one conifers' cones need the fire fire to germinate. In regards to how quickly the burns greened up I find that surprising and maybe if this is true finding food sources won't be as much of an issue in the areas as some of us believed. However, from my time in university I unfortunately don't believe the areas will be teaming with green pioneer plants in 3 weeks. Hoping what I learned was wrong and your observations are more accurate though.

Here is vegetation growing a little over 3 weeks after the fire went through this pine/black spruce transition zone. Two months later this area and others were covered in a green carpet of grasses and shrubs. This year there is poplar, willow and cottonwood 3' high covering most of the burn areas, along with those same grasses and shrubs

http://i.imgur.com/KLaZGMq.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/TfiHB2I.jpg

even the bugs were working on turning the dead wood into food and fertilizer: frass from sawyer beetles

http://i.imgur.com/64PixMd.jpg

Depending on the burn intensity will determine the regrowth: too hot and sterilized soils will take a long time to reproduce


Looking ahead the issues will be road densities, invasive weeds, and logging practices.

And those all go hand in hand.

Manage them and wildlife will do just fine.

I agree, rehabbing all those new roads, fire breaks etc. is going to take a long time to get completed. Now going to have to log of a lot of the black wood is going to create more roads and more sightlines for both 2 and 4 legged preds.

Cheers

SS

[srupp]

Thanks Ken..exellent photos..
Hope you are well..
Putting all information together for our situation..
Cheers
Steven

[gcreek]

Exellent points on down the road explosion of growth..have seen this from the chopper in past much smaller fires ..pretty difficult when it's still burning..and no rain diminishing daylight hours for growth.
I would suggest this is different in that it's one of the 2 largest fires in area burning at once in 100 years .
Great points by numerous guys..it's really early..too early to tell the degree of deaths of wildlife..even guesses. .and yet hunting season is 4 weeks away..a lot will still be burning.
The stress..current relocation ..until food sources start to grow back. .for those that did survive..
How much loss of animals, habitat..how much more stress , harvest can be tolerated..if any..
We get one chance to get this right or numbers could be down for at least a few years..
I am concerned..especially for moose poulations on west side they have a extreme time with 24..7..year round hunting with already declining numbers perdom7natly by road access..these hundreds ds of cat roads will not help.
Good conversation. .different perspectives..again ethics does play a roll..didnt consider buying a Beef for our familly..just thought of going elsewhere for deer moose.
Srupp


Steven, the ungulate populations in the Chilcotin were already suffering due to predator pressure. The bears and wolves are still here.... Add in lack of feed in wintering areas and you will get some winterkill to boot.

So so many want to blame others for the situation, we are all responsible.

BTW, you wouldn't have any photos from the Fire on the Bella Coola hill that burnt in 2010 I believe? Still not much there, it even burnt the rocks.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Much of the fires have turned the wind fallen trees to ash.....even the ash is all but gone it burned so hot. there will be a lot of area which will take 5 to 10 years to start growing.
Gcreek is right about the wintering grounds taking a hit. this will effect the deer populations the most. With an already dry year effecting what is left of winter range we better hope for an easy winter for the deer's sake.

[Bugle M In]

Much of the fires have turned the wind fallen trees to ash.....even the ash is all but gone it burned so hot. there will be a lot of area which will take 5 to 10 years to start growing.
Gcreek is right about the wintering grounds taking a hit. this will effect the deer populations the most. With an already dry year effecting what is left of winter range we better hope for an easy winter for the deer's sake.

Yes the winter range being burned will take be a problem.
But, to be honest, some of those same areas were being scheduled to be logged out anyways.
I brought up that concern last year, when I heard they were coming in where I hunt in November.
(there wasn't anything left on the plateau to log anyways...again IMO)
And another point you made about "blowdown".....
That fire will be of big benefit for that......wish it would happen in the EK.....pine beetle and blowdown have
been the biggest reason...IMO...for the Elk having gone elsewhere....
What was once great habitat for them for wallows and trails and resting areas etc...is just plain uninhabitable now....
even a squirrel has trouble moving in the crap.
Anyone ever watch "Yukon men"??
They had a large fire...and yes...they had troubles finding game etc.
The ones that moved to hunt areas unaffected by the fire seemed to be successful.
The ones who hunted their traditional areas, that did see fire, were not.
BUT, seems that a year later, things were better.
Honestly folks....
We have been wanting fires on this forum, to produce the habitat that we all know was needed, and that the ministry
was either unwillinging or so slow in moving on, that nothing was happening.
NOW, we have the fire....just a little bigger then some would desire etc.....
BUT, from what I was seeing, the dead timber laying around, the logging all over the place...with roads only minutes
aprt if you were out on foot, and endless lengths if open clearcuts that sort of went on forever...
That scenario was "not" helping anything...IMO
This fire scenario WILL.
It was needed, and I for one am glad it actually took care of that entire area....all of it....
It will be a great place to hunt in years to come....something my daughter can look forward to.
Just won't be business as normal this year....possibly??
And this size of fire is what is needed in the EK as well....big...and remove all that blowdown...and without
creating more roads.
I think some will not find success this season if that was their go to spots.....they will have to adjust...just like the
wildlife will.....
This is just a natural cycle for wildlife....
Just not natural for ranchers and property owners....
But then....who was here 1st anyways?
NO pain...no gain...
If someone does not want to hunt it to give wildlife a break...then don't...
I for one will be....
To be honest, I am pretty selective when it comes to mule deer anyways...so the chances something drops this
season up there due to me...is pretty low to begin with.
If there are concerns....then just be selective...
This HAD to happen.

So, I would say the fire will be the better of the two.....IMO.

[russm86]

^^^^ agreed. Even the logging cuts they do in region 3 now a days are nearly un-walkable/hikable by the time they are done, let alone try to drag an animal out. Everything is left in such a mess they don't clean up worth crap, other areas of the province seem much better, could almost wheel chair through slashes in some other parts of the province. Then as you mentioned all the beetle killed pine and what not that has blown down in areas that haven't been logged.

[GoatGuy]

Much of the fires have turned the wind fallen trees to ash.....even the ash is all but gone it burned so hot. there will be a lot of area which will take 5 to 10 years to start growing.
Gcreek is right about the wintering grounds taking a hit. this will effect the deer populations the most. With an already dry year effecting what is left of winter range we better hope for an easy winter for the deer's sake.


The deer winter range discussion in the cariboo is always interesting

Unfortunately the researchers, litterature, and results don't support the "no fire, old firs only" approach that has been implemented in the cariboo.

Great to have those big vets for snow interception and thermal cover, but when there isn't any browse on the ground for deer to eat because the last fire was over 100 years ago you're going to end up with declining deer pops. Nevermind those old vets grew up and survived through fire, and the seed banks of 'deer food' sitting in the ground have a shelf-life which is probably expiring soon..... if it hasn't already.

100 years without a fire in places that historically burned every 16-18 years. Doesn't make a lot of sense.

Great to have a house and a heater, but it doesn't work without a kitchen.

[bloody bellies]

head to the Fraser basin, the deer will go there, they go there now, no fires there, pretty sure everyone knew this already, more deer there means more to choose from, I would think if there is no food where the fires have been, the deer will migrate to the Fraser with all their buddies. they will adapt, shoot the wolves as they follow.:-)

[chilcotin hillbilly]

The deer winter range discussion in the cariboo is always interesting

Unfortunately the researchers, litterature, and results don't support the "no fire, old firs only" approach that has been implemented in the cariboo.

Great to have those big vets for snow interception and thermal cover, but when there isn't any browse on the ground for deer to eat because the last fire was over 100 years ago you're going to end up with declining deer pops. Nevermind those old vets grew up and survived through fire, and the seed banks of 'deer food' sitting in the ground have a shelf-life which is probably expiring soon..... if it hasn't already.

100 years without a fire in places that historically burned every 16-18 years. Doesn't make a lot of sense.

Great to have a house and a heater, but it doesn't work without a kitchen.

Long term you cannot be more right. This fire is something that in the long run will help wildlife. Short term a different story.

[HarryToolips]

Harry, everyone is in agreeance that the fires are great for the animals in the long term. That fire was 10 years ago. What we are debating now on the short term effects; this year's fires mixed with last years winter, will likely be tough on the animals and maybe we should lay off of them a bit in the areas hit hardest.

Sitka again, I agree, the province needs the fires and our fire suppression efforts are what cause such enormous areas to be burnt in single summers. I forget the tree; but one conifers' cones need the fire fire to germinate. In regards to how quickly the burns greened up I find that surprising and maybe if this is true finding food sources won't be as much of an issue in the areas as some of us believed. However, from my time in university I unfortunately don't believe the areas will be teaming with green pioneer plants in 3 weeks. Hoping what I learned was wrong and your observations are more accurate though.
Lodgepole pine.....

[horshur]

Laying off the herd that has lost winter range will help how? Think about that.

[Golddust]

I never thought of that. More deer = more competition = the smaller pool of resources is spread across more animals. Good point

[srupp]

Hmmm if we are eliminating moose from our discussion. .slightly different story...however a LOT" significant moose wintering locations have been hit by these fires..most of the habitats that each hold well in excess of 100 moose in the Dec. .Jan. .feb..have been hit by fire..how bad? What's left? Don't know yet it still burning..certainly more starts today, last night from lightening.

Deer from as far as Cariboo mts head to a large wintering area. .the Fraser river basin, if you have never seen the concentration of deer you truly won't believe it...awe inspiring.seen these and the Wolverine migration..wolverine lake that is..
I have never been aware of deer compromised due to lack of available forage on winter grounds..no huge die offs.

The affect of wildlife that did not winter so well in 2016 winter..long..and deep snow season...late snow pack...went straight from snow to dust..no rains till today..
July 7 fires started..more started today..100% of major fires are still burning , expanding..
Wildlife is stressed period.
Hunters get to decide if the next..only 3 possible months that rain..start of snow may provide some relief before Cariboo winter takes over until next May.
It's not only the actual harvest..it's also the constant pressure of pushing wildlife that survived the fire has been funneledIinto small areas and concentrated.Wildlife pushed by the fires won't run to Alberta however they will run to the closest habitat that they feel safe in and presents opportunities for safety and food.
It's not over..fires continue to rage., smolder..hot spots are re kindling" with recent winds.
In some areas that didn't burn are subject to forestry burning to remove that fuel source.
It well be a moote" point as hunting is effectively closed now.untill the back country closure is removed hopefully by sept?not for wildlife but it will mean we finally are slowing stopping these fires.
We are providing meat to those that lost their freezers protein storage.wonderful stepping up as hunters.
Now as hunters what is it we can do for wildlife that provides this protein...it's just a question.
Srupp

[Bugle M In]

Yes, eliminating moose from the equation, may be plausible etc.
I guess I come from the opinion that this may not be as bad as it seems.
In the end, I think a lot of hunters will nit enjoy the success this season as they may have hoped for under
normal situations etc.
This will all work out in my opinion....and for the best....maybe just not right this second.

[dbergen69]

I agree. Time for a 1 year suspension of all hunting in region 5. How can we move this forward?

[Cyrus]

Might as well do region 3 and 7 while were at it....

[tigrr]

The only way this would be palatable is if the draws people waited 10 years for were carried over to next year. You implying the people who waited 10 years to be drawn just get thrown under the bus is not very sporting.
I wonder how many opinions are coming from people who have no involvement in this area.
I wonder if the decisions will be made by knowledge and not emotion.

[Cyrus]

Moose draw reg 5....likely never get another one. Yes much of region 5 is on fire but it is a big area. Much of reg 3 is on fire as well but another big area. State of emergency and backcountry bans...i guess the fair thing to do is shut it all down in those areas if no relief by middle of Sept.

[horshur]

Moose draw reg 5....likely never get another one. Yes much of region 5 is on fire but it is a big area. Much of reg 3 is on fire as well but another big area. State of emergency and backcountry bans...i guess the fair thing to do is shut it all down in those areas if no relief by middle of Sept.

almost nothing in region 3 is burning really...

[HarryToolips]

Don't shut the regions down for hunting, that will just shift even more pressure into regions 4 and 8....but I'd say leave the vehicle restriction in place for a while as in no going off the main FSR's for a while into the season, in the fire affected areas...

[srupp]

Hmmm did a drive out west tonight. .saw 5 amazing cali big horns in a place I knew them to be up to 5 years ago..biggest? 150..
Talked to a couple of individuals who have been in the fire zone in last 2 days..

I was wrong.let me repeat some of y concerns.there is som e green showing up in the burned out areas that cooled down 10 days ago.not much but some, not enough for even a few deer but a g reat sign for the future.
Steven

[gcreek]

Hmmm did a drive out west tonight. .saw 5 amazing cali big horns in a place I knew them to be up to 5 years ago..biggest? 150..
Talked to a couple of individuals who have been in the fire zone in last 2 days..

I was wrong.let me repeat some of y concerns.there is som e green showing up in the burned out areas that cooled down 10 days ago.not much but some, not enough for even a few deer but a g reat sign for the future.
Steven

Don't think Staffords would let anyone shoot those sheep if there was a season Steven. Lol

[srupp]

Ha ha morning Dave not Billies place..lol actually not even a deer a his ranch.
The part i found useful incredible that some green has started just weeks after the area cool.
Lots has cooled but in deep ash no growth yet.
However my concerns In some areas was WRONG.thankfuly.
Be careful out there Dave.
Billies sheep should show up on schedule after sept 1.
Cheers
Steven

[rogerb]

the danger I see with asking for the season in region 5 to be closed due to the fires is that it would set a precedent that could be used in the future to close more & more seasons/areas to hunting. hunters on here may have one idea of what constitutes a 'once in a hundred years' fire event - others who support the current government may well have a completely different perspective & use this precedent to restrict hunting as soon as a plume of smoke is spotted. for them, any excuse will do so long as it takes them closer to their final goal - ending hunting entirely...

[northernguy]

^^^Good point.

[rimfire]

the danger I see with asking for the season in region 5 to be closed due to the fires is that it would set a precedent that could be used in the future to close more & more seasons/areas to hunting. hunters on here may have one idea of what constitutes a 'once in a hundred years' fire event - others who support the current government may well have a completely different perspective & use this precedent to restrict hunting as soon as a plume of smoke is spotted. for them, any excuse will do so long as it takes them closer to their final goal - ending hunting entirely...

Spot on. Give an inch, they'll take a mile... Ultimately, they just want you dependent on the government. From cradle to the grave!