Optics Help!

[ROM]

Hi Folks,

I need your help with an issue that has been getting worse over the past decade. Last year I passed up on a buck at 100 yards during twilight as I just couldn't be 100% it had head gear and I didn't end up harvesting a buck at all last year. Some background: I'm 50 years old and shoot a 300 WM and use a Leopold VX 1. The scope is 17 years old and during daylight and regular distances it seems great. Also 17 years ago I had excellent vision and could confidently make shots I don't try today. My eye sight has been steadily deteriorating since that time and now I wear progressive glasses. I can still shoot a one inch group at 100 yards at the range but the twilight and shots over 300 yards are now problematic.

I just don't know what to do. Do I need a new scope or just accept the fact I'm getting old? I have looked around and to upgrade from what I have is around $700. I don't feel like I need more magnification (although I'm not adverse to it) for my shots as I can see animals fine I just can't tell detail in low light like I could. Your thoughts on how to approach this issue would be appreciated.


R

[The Hermit]

Laser Surgery and a bigger better scope?

[ROM]

Sorry the existing scope is a Leupold is a 3X9X40. Thanks again,

[Ferenc]

Try looking through a 50mm objective scope as compared
to your 40mm

[Leaseman]

Look at a better quality scope too!

[brian]

Better quality lenses will transmit more of the available light giving a brighter clearer image. Any cheap quality lens can look good during the day... I have some cheap binos that are brilliant as long as it is reasonably light out, but forget about it at dusk. They couldn't hold a candle to my old Vipers that could make out details clearly in low light. Real lens quality shows itself when the lights go out. VX 1 is Leupolds entry level optic and doesn't use good quality lenses. If I had $700 to spend, I would either upgrade to a higher quality scope or better quality binos.

[Linksman313]

Think about eye relief as well, one of my more senior hunting buddies found the same issues you state a low light conditions, went to the doc and brought his scope along, issue was not enough eye relief causing his eyes to be working harder than needed to stay in sight picture especially at dusk. He upgraded to a newer scope with better glass and longer eye relief and has made a big difference.

[KodiakHntr]

Get some binoculars. Good ones.

The only job a scope has is to steer the bullet, and it sounds like the one you have is adequate for the job. Use good binoculars to identify your target, then shoot.

[ROM]

Thanks for the feedback folks. This is great stuff.

[Ron.C]

I'm starting to have the same issue in low light. Doesn't matter what optic I use, the eyes aren't what they once we're. And my near vision is much worse but typically it doesn't affect me as much in the field. I'm going to my optometrist to see if laser eye surgery is an option. I think it's a much better investment "for me" than an optics upgrade.

[Fisher-Dude]

Get some binoculars. Good ones.

The only job a scope has is to steer the bullet, and it sounds like the one you have is adequate for the job. Use good binoculars to identify your target, then shoot.

^^^ This.

If you're using your scope as your way to identify legality of an animal, you're doing it wrong, and dangerously.

"Never point a firearm at something you don't intend to shoot."

Get a good set of binos and then only use the scope to aim your bullet after you've determined a safe, legal target.

[wideopenthrottle]

^^^ This.

If you're using your scope as your way to identify legality of an animal, you're doing it wrong, and dangerously.

"Never point a firearm at something you don't intend to shoot."

Get a good set of binos and then only use the scope to aim your bullet after you've determined a safe, legal target.

I don't buy into the "never point your firearm at something unless you intend to shoot" because acquiring a target is an important skill to practice. I rather would go with "always keep your rifle pointed in a safe direction" and occasionally aim at a safe stump to practice.... carefully identifying your living target with bino's is a no brainer but blindly assuming your scope is not covered in mud/fog until you are about to shoot is also bad practice...how many times did you pull up on an animal and take a deep exhale right onto your scope before you learned not to do that! I like to practice acquiring a target when I am a bit out breath for experiencing that situation....

[Drillbit]

^^^ This.

If you're using your scope as your way to identify legality of an animal, you're doing it wrong, and dangerously.

"Never point a firearm at something you don't intend to shoot."

Get a good set of binos and then only use the scope to aim your bullet after you've determined a safe, legal target.

I do it all the time.
Usually there's no time to bino first.
See a legal buck. Load gun and point it at the deer. Then decide if it's big enough to shoot.

I do it lots with bears too. Except there's usually lots of time for binos with bears.
First look for cubs, if there's no cubs then I load up and do an appraisal. I find they all look big with binos and I can tell their size best when they know somethings up and start to go.


To the OP
There's a huge difference between and VX1 and a VX3 at dusk. Get a better scope.

[Fisher-Dude]

The extension is, with the lack of binos, using your scope to assess something moving across a cutblock, which could be a tree planter in a brown coat, is a bad practice.

Buy the binos. Furthermore, with the antler restrictions and 1" tine rules, you'd best be using something other than a rifle scope to make very important decisions.

[boxhitch]

Check out the high end Euro scopes and find the reasons they are produced in the packages they offer. Some Euro hunts can be done at night with the use of natural lighting only, so optics set-ups are the best possible for low light factor.
Some NA scopes use some of the features but not often in the same combinations, as the average market doesn't push the twilight limits.
having a 50 mm objective is pointless in of itself, if not all components are up to the same capabilities.

And pointing a rifle and scope at a deer is totally acceptable even if the decision is not to pull the trigger. A good 15 to 20 power scope may be the decision maker where a 7 power bino can't see the detail.
Targeting a deer is different than searching for a target.

"Never point a firearm at something you don't intend to shoot."Don't eat that, its crap

[boxhitch]

ROM, also check out a respectable optometrist that knows shooters needs, likely you can get a custom shooting lense set-up.

[Darksith]

I would bet that although the glass in a quality scope 17 years old is great, the coatings are not there...probably never were, which can help a lot with low level light transmission. A new scope could do the job, but it could very easily be partly that your eyes are going as well. I would take my scope off my gun, bring it into a shop at dusk and take it outside and do a comparison on new vs old...or have a buddy with high end glass and do the same out in the field. That will tell you if its your eyes or glass...but my guess is its the coatings that are lowering the preformance of the scope vs a newer same model 1

[ROM]

This is all great advice - thanks. As for the bino question - the point is well taken and yes I have them and yes I used them on that morning. But I don't want to get into detail of that scenario since the point of this is to determine if I should get a new riflescope and if so what kind. From what I am hearing from folks is that its a good starting point and that my 17 year old scope may have to go to another rifle. ok - so I'm convinced. Can anyone recommend a riflescope in the $6-700 range that might do the trick? Like I said the rifle is a 300 WM and the range is up to 300 yards. Low light shooting is the primary criteria. Thanks,

[Darksith]

Vortex Viper
Leupold VX3

are the 2 choices in your price range I would be looking at and reading reviews and info on. Might find a deal on a swaro or nightforce too if you are willing to spend a bit more $. If it was me I personally would say your best bang for you buck in that price range is going to be the vortex.

[emerson]

Scope and bino quality has made a huge difference for me. I'm in the process of selling off several rifles to go from a $500 scope to a $1300 one. The hunters who run a $3K optic get 40 min more shooting light/day than a $300 one. My eyes are just normal mid 40s, but nothing like they were 25 years ago.

[Darksith]

Scope and bino quality has made a huge difference for me. I'm in the process of selling off several rifles to go from a $500 scope to a $1300 one. The hunters who run a $3K optic get 40 min more shooting light/day than a $300 one. My eyes are just normal mid 40s, but nothing like they were 25 years ago.

it might be more than that, although laws start to come into effect. But I have several times not been able to see with my naked eye but used my scope or binos to see an animal still pretty easily. We had hit my moose last year at about 400yards, by the time we got to where we thought he was it was almost dark, we knew we hit him...he couldn't get over the windfall and was stuck on the hillside. We could only see his paddles with the naked eye at that time but the optics allowed us to finish him off.

Swaro and Vortex Binos, Nightforce scope

[IronNoggin]

... There's a huge difference between and VX1 and a VX3 at dusk. Get a better scope.

aYup. I'll never own the former again. In fact, you can count when I lost the last one in decades.

That said, I'd pay a little attention to this advice:


having a 50 mm objective is pointless in of itself, if not all components are up to the same capabilities.

After the homework, you'll likely agree with a few of the suggestions above regarding brand.

The eye thing I can seriously commiserate with.
Going through some bee-ess again with that right now actually.
Go to a good Optometrist. Preferably an Ophthalmologist.
Less invasive than your regular physical, and may well effect a lot more than hunting for you down the road.
Very much worth the visit... :wink:

Cheers,
Nog

[VLD43]

This is all great advice - thanks. As for the bino question - the point is well taken and yes I have them and yes I used them on that morning. But I don't want to get into detail of that scenario since the point of this is to determine if I should get a new riflescope and if so what kind. From what I am hearing from folks is that its a good starting point and that my 17 year old scope may have to go to another rifle. ok - so I'm convinced. Can anyone recommend a riflescope in the $6-700 range that might do the trick? Like I said the rifle is a 300 WM and the range is up to 300 yards. Low light shooting is the primary criteria. Thanks,
As others have said, a VX 3, 3.5 X 10 40mm objective would be a good choice. One option to consider or inquire about when choosing one of two brands is as follows. Ask the store owner who stocks both models, if they will allow you to take both scopes out overnight. You typically leave your charge card with them overnight. This allows you to check out both brands in low light conditions, and firm up your preference. Obviously it is understood that if damage either scope, your on the hook for it. I have done this previously with great success.

[jbruce]

the scope is only for killing the animal why the **** would you not be using binoculars????

[hardnocks]

And pointing a rifle and scope at a deer is totally acceptable even if the decision is not to pull the trigger. A good 15 to 20 power scope may be the decision maker where a 7 power bino can't see the detail.
Targeting a deer is different than searching for a target.
Don't eat that, its crap[/QUOTE]

this make sense

[hardnocks]

the scope is only for killing the animal why the **** would you not be using binoculars????

don`t eat this its crap

[BCBRAD]

My eyes are much older than the OP's, for a hunting rifle consider a 6x42 Leupold, exit pupil matches the human max. of 7mm, it has a very generous eye box, which variables tend not to have most of the time, the optic quality is a good match for the power. A heavy duplex or a German #4 will aid in low light conditions.

For 300 yard shots at game the 6x42 is ideal.

[ajr5406]

I'm starting to have the same issue in low light. Doesn't matter what optic I use, the eyes aren't what they once we're. And my near vision is much worse but typically it doesn't affect me as much in the field. I'm going to my optometrist to see if laser eye surgery is an option. I think it's a much better investment "for me" than an optics upgrade.

I had PRK laser surgery 3 years ago and it is one of the best decisions ive ever made - completely life changing! I imagine for hunting this would make a massive difference....

[elknut]

The thing about optics being either a rifle scope or a set of binoculars is the quality of the glass and its coatings ...While hunting the Racing River for elk ...my wife and I were glassing the elk across the Racing river near last light ..I said to my wife look at the 2 bulls fighting ...She replied she couldn't see them ..After some tit for tat arguing I picked up her binoculars and couldn't see the elk either...Passed her my Zeiss binoculars and she instantly saw the elk...All binoculars when looked through during the daytime seem to be alright but......Its the first and last light conditions that determine a good glass and viewing..You only get what you pay for !....I really do't think it matters to your age either ..It's the Glass and it's coatings ...Go to a optics dealer and view there scopes and you'll find a big difference in clarity..Sorry Leupold fans ..I'm not anymore ...Over priced ...poor glass ...but great warranty...Warranty doesn't give you clarity ...Dennis

[elch jager]

Illuminated reticles help get on target in low light. No substitute for good glass... get the best you can afford.

Look at the quality of your spectacles as well. If you are not going to do laser surgery make sure you get very high quality eyeglasses. Not the cheap crap... and CLEAN THEM!!!! Can't believe the dust and smears on lenses of people that think they shoot well....

[brian]

I really don't think it matters to your age either ..It's the Glass and it's coating.

You are correct it is all about the glass, but your eyes don't dialate as much as you age so your night vision suffers. If your exit pupil is smaller then you won't be able to use the extra exit pupil a younger pair of eyes could. But young eyes or old will both suffer with poor glass.


the scope is only for killing the animal why the **** would you not be using binoculars????

don`t eat this its crap
The answer to this is really simple. If you see something but don't know what it is then use your binos. If you see a deer (or whatever you are hunting) and want to get a closer look and a potential shot, then use your scope. Then you are already lined up for the shot and deciding whether or not to take it. If I had enough money for highend optics but only enough for one then I would put it into my scope. It is really frustrating to find animals with your binos at last light but then be unable to locate it with your scope. That has happened to me before. And that scope gives your your last look at the animal before you commit to squeezing the trigger.

[boblly1]

i`m 66 years old i use a 3x9x40mm leupold on my 270 win. and have no trouble out at 400 plus yards. that being said i have a 7mm-08 scoped with a 3x9x40 redfield revolution with accu-range. And i have to say it is most impressive might even be clearer optics than the leupold may be an option for you to look at.

[quadrakid]

You just need to accept the situation along with skin tags, old growth ear and nose hair ,crazy eyebrows and back hair.:razz:

[boxhitch]

Can anyone recommend a riflescope in the $6-700 range that might do the trick?Don't know where you are at, but maybe find a Nikon, Prostaff is as good as Monarch.

[Ohwildwon]

Just purchased Leopold pro guide hd Mojave 10 x 42 on blow out sale @ cabelas usa $500 cad...

That's a $500 savings over any price up here...

[J-F]

You just need to accept the situation along with skin tags, old growth ear and nose hair ,crazy eyebrows and back hair.:razz:

Yup! I'm 48 and getting there too. In the last 5 years, the glasses I would wear to work and read, they now come on every hunting outings.

As for quality of optics, get the best you can afford (easy to say) but on binoculars rather than on the riflescope (my kick in the controversy).

Counting points on a elk or deer rack is better made with two eyes, even if it's doable with a single eye in a riflescope (tried both methods...). Besides, glassing with good quality optics will reduced the effort you uncounsciously make to focus, which sometimes leads to eye strain and headaches. Using my binos with glasses still demanded some time to adapt... I'm better now.

For binoculars, I treated myself with a pair of Leica Geovid. I got them years ago during a trip to Calgary (saved a few tax $$$), and got to try different models before picking these ones. With all that cash you leave behind, you're allowed to take time and try. BTW, bigger magnification does not mean better, I got the 8x40, they had 5 pairs of 10x40. They just felt more comfortable. These are now crazy expensive, but there used to be a site where you could buy used demos that were more affordable. I got one pair, this pair, for life.

Two years ago, I had a similar experience to yours one September evening, when a really nice whitetail showed up in the middle of a field in the very last minutes of daylight. I could see him well with the binos, I was drooling. Got the 308 up, and all I could see was a shapeless gray blurb! The scope on that rifle was a Bushnell Elite 3200 2-7x32. With all the other does in the field, I'm sure of the fun this guy must have had in the following months!

That night, after coming home, I looked through all the riflescopes I had, aiming at poorly lit objects across the street (I kept the neighbourhood quiet, I did that inside the house). It turns out that all others were better in the low light, including an affordable Redfield Revolution, two old old Leupold M8 4x, a Burris Fullfield and a Leupold VXII 3-9x40. Some bigger and better scopes did also well. So... after ranting on the value of good binoculars, a good riflescope is still important! The saving grace is that lots of decent scopes are out for sale at a a reasonable price.

The scope you currently have may be adequate too. Sometimes, the deer wins.