First nations traditional territory

[spitfire_125]

There is a road I've been down and hunting on before now there is a sign up that says now entering(band names) traditional territory. Are you aloud to hunt or not? (Non native)

[tuner]

It's the same as private property, you need permission from the band.

[LuckyHorseshoe]

I would phone the CO and ask. There have been Lots of instances where bands just decide to put up a sign with no right to do so. I believe there is a difference between "traditional territory" and reserves.

[Mulehahn]

HorseShoe is right. All of BC is the traditional territory of one band or another, often more than one. There are layering oprions for google earth which cpuld help, or as suggested call a CO but they may be slow to respond.

[Bear Chaser]

Unless it is deeded private land you are within your rights to hunt anywhere that there is a season without permission from anybody.

[Whiterock]

Same thing happened to me out of Lilloet, an area I had hunted was gated and signed. I made a formal complaint to the RCMP,,the gate was removed, but the sign stayed. I was told by the RCMP and the CO, that I could hunt there, but if I had a problem with the natives,I was on my own and not to contact them. So much so for my government protecting me. Its happening more and more,,a small group claims an area as "traditional hunting territory", and they need it for "subsistance hunting",and our Government backs down,,again. As far as I know, in some cases,a call to the number on the sign, and you are good to go.But not always,, Good luck.

[HarryToolips]

I would phone the CO and ask. There have been Lots of instances where bands just decide to put up a sign with no right to do so. I believe there is a difference between "traditional territory" and reserves.
Exactly.................

[BgBlkDg]

So, the RCMP and the COs will NOT enforce the laws where these characters defy them and refuse to serve we taxpaying citizens who pay them and support this society........just how far can Canada/BC sink before the reaction starts?

I WILL go WHERE I CHOOSE and I WILL defend myself and possessions with any means I deem necessary. NO person, is going to block me on ANY road on CROWN LAND, not ever.

The time fast approaches when WE MUST protect ourselves and refuse to back down from these thugs.

[GOLDEN TOP SNIPER]

i will agree with that .. what is this country coming too . Natives dont own the land , they belong to it . CANADA is there traditional hunting territory .. The reserves are a different matter . However they seem to think that its one and the same too many times and too many places because they know they can get away with because the LAW doesnt do anything about it .!. course if it was you and i , we would be making trips to the court house .. I have no problem with my taxes going towards the Natives if its used for education and other programs .. i have worked up in northern Alberta and know many Natives around B.C. And Saskatchewan too . Some are good buddies of mine and they dont agree with some of the actions of the bands and individuals who exploit there heritage for gain , not sustenance but greedy gain . . I was born here too and i dont need permission to walk Crown land as far i know .

[pnbrock]

i say we blockade the grocery stores and wall marts.

[IronNoggin]

Unless it is deeded private land you are within your rights to hunt anywhere that there is a season without permission from anybody.

This. Period.

Cheers,
Nog

[Jelvis]

Band land is reserve that the government gave them when they pushed then into spots to take over ranch land, mines etc.
Something like that, then the territory includes the rez and the Indian band's original land mass area to the next band of Indians. Like a crossword puzzle fit togedder.
Jelvis -- non status can hunt territory but not on reserve land -- simple as that

[curt]

Sounds good but the reality NO YOU WONT GO WHERE YOU CHOOSE if its deemed native land its no different than private property and even if it wasnt the government will not support you because they are spineless and the rcmp will not get involved in your defense because it is a very slippery slope for them too because ..... yup you guessed it the government is spineless!! Many of resident hunters have said the same thing and many a residents have been chased off or denied access via road blocks or other means ....this province is heading down a very dismal path for resident hunters and fishers!!
So, the RCMP and the COs will NOT enforce the laws where these characters defy them and refuse to serve we taxpaying citizens who pay them and support this society........just how far can Canada/BC sink before the reaction starts?

I WILL go WHERE I CHOOSE and I WILL defend myself and possessions with any means I deem necessary. NO person, is going to block me on ANY road on CROWN LAND, not ever.

The time fast approaches when WE MUST protect ourselves and refuse to back down from these thugs.

[IronNoggin]

....this province is heading down a very dismal path for resident hunters and fishers!!

AND overly emboldened FN's btw... :wink:

Catch ya at the roadblock... :twisted:

Cheers,
Nog

[whitlers]

i say we blockade the grocery stores and wall marts.

And the liquor store..

[HappyJack]

And the liquor store..

And the bingo hall!!

What about that band that got "title to the land" west of Williams Lake in the supreme court? That's not just traditional territory, they have title so I guess they can post it??

[HarryToolips]

And the liquor store..
Lol we'd have em surrendering in a week....

[whitlers]

And the bingo hall!!

What about that band that got "title to the land" west of Williams Lake in the supreme court? That's not just traditional territory, they have title so I guess they can post it??

That's right in our old moose territory. They took a good chunk of that area.

[downsouth204]

I've seen similar signage and continued to hunt there without issue. At the time I was thinking if I was approached about it, I'd just ask the intention behind the signage. I'm a respectful hunter and have no issue just asking a bands permission to hunt there, letting them know I'd respect the land and animals and am just hunting for meat for the winter.
I hunted in Manitoba most of my life where the land is almost all private property, mostly farm land. I'm used to just going up to a land owner and asking permission. In almost every case, the only concern of the land owner is that you'll respect their property. I've met some good people and made some long term friends hunting on peoples land. I doubt this situation would be any different if approached from the right frame of mind.

[Jelvis]

Band up the North Thompson at Barriere has known traditional area thru and past the Alberta border at Jasper. BC band tradional lands across provincial border yet recognized by officials.
Jel -- people moved around with canoes and snowshoes and dog sled and moccasins.
--------------------------- Village people -- heading out into the world --

[Fella]

Lol we'd have em surrendering in a week....
Methinks you'd also have a bunch of white guys crying too

[srupp]

The land surrender by the purple robes was apparantly due to the Chilcotin war..a major reason this area was deemed to be significantly different than other claims. .still BS but that was part of the decision.
Fact is natives have claimed 150% of BC..Hmmm 3 % claiming 1 1/2 times ALL of BC. ..
Most claims have 2 or 3 other bands claiming the exact same area..hmm climb off the couch..grab a pair of boots.....

Elmer

[pg83]

What about that band that got "title to the land" west of Williams Lake in the supreme court? That's not just traditional territory, they have title so I guess they can post it??

Their Title Land is no hunting for us although they post signs outside of their area that I ignore every year.

[primmed99]

roll down the windows and crank Brocket 99!!!!

[Jelvis]

The best way to hunt in the bush roads and see the different crossings and what not, look at your map and see where it says, " Indian Reserve, then take note, and go.
-- Just don't drop an animal on actual Reserve -- outside of reserve is open
Reserves in Reg 3 are relatively small anyways, Whispering Pines isn't Secwepwmca it's from the Chilly Cootin, made a deal with the Feds, and Bam! took the Shuswap land under their nozes.
Is tthat right? -- Alert- Compo and not now but right now! Swoosh $$$$$$$$
The government and under the table deals McSqweels.
Somebody must pay back or go back to swayback behind Willy's Pond?
-- What's good for the goosen iz n't alway good for the ganderin -- pay now or pay now?
Don't get the Shuswap upset ok just sayin
Jelly Bean -- Kamloops tp Yasper, as fast as casper - dah frenly goh host.

[LeverActionJunkie]

Some of y'all are painting us with an ugly brush in this thread. No need to bring dated stereotypes into public forums representing hunters as a whole.

[Drillbit]

There is a road I've been down and hunting on before now there is a sign up that says now entering(band names) traditional territory. Are you aloud to hunt or not? (Non native)

There are many gates and signs all around the province that are put up to keep people out of "super secret spots"

Research the area and find out if the signs are legit. Most aren't, but they may be.

[Jelvis]

Sustenance harvesting areas crawling with game like the drill is sayin.
-- just sayin, it's a place for hayin
If you normally go to a local corner store and then, one day, hit Wally's, yah get whad i'm tryin to say?
-- as long as the spot is not on (actual Reserve) and is deemed Crown! Then all hunters could take a legal animule.
The Rock says, " Know your role!" then you will know and have confidence about where you can start shootin.
Jel -- all hunters out here driving around need to look at maps at home b4 the season.

[wideopenthrottle]

There are many gates and signs all around the province that are put up to keep people out of "super secret spots"

Research the area and find out if the signs are legit. Most aren't, but they may be.

where do you get your signs made?...heheheheh...do they make them to look old and weathered before you buy them so they look more legit...

[wideopenthrottle]

hey I have some Viking in my genes...does that make the whole known world my traditional territory....

[edgar11]

And the liquor store..

That's ironic because pretty much all of my FN friends and family do not drink alcohol. On the other hand, my non-FN friends from work etc. cannot cope without it. :wink: Funny how that is, but what do I know about stereotyping.

[Jelvis]

-- No one screws with the Vikings period, thanks for the reminder, whoa! Tuff Mudderz.
- You won't diss a Viking to his face and walk away.
Jel e us -- Good thang we don't have the Vikes taken over in Canucksville! Bye bye.

[tuffcityhunter]

Just reading all these post just gets me fired up. I'm 22 years old and sometimes wonder if I will still be legally allowed to hunt in another 40 years or if our spineless goverment will hand our remaining hunting and fishing rights to the indians. Just so i can watch gill nets across rivers, trucks with lights out the windows at night going past camp, and the fresh fish sign on the side of the highway. Just shows how as a white hunter and fisherman that . those two things could be on a count down for myself with our goverment.

[Jelvis]

-- I honestly believe we as hunters on this site, over twenty thousand are being watched on here and noted for our threads and posts for thoughts and original ideas on how to face this nasty situation?
-- I believe the Ministry itself will clue in the politicians about the complexity of animal conservation's challenging future and not just the future, but now, today.
- I trust the Ministry in BC because they never made any major blunders in BC on wild animals.
-- they have started and maintained special migration areas and breeding areas to be protected from human encroachment.
I could go on and on but no time, we must not panic, stay composed.
Jel -- We are strong together as hunters, and on here HBC so stick together on rules and regs.

[boxhitch]

roll down the windows and crank Brocket 99!!!! or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAEmjW9J3_o&list=RD_zH9wHWMi_k&index=2 barricade at 2:00

[JAGRMEISTER]

"traditional" is meaningless, but a claim to what they believe is theirs! They do not have title or any rights, it is not reserve land. eg. Treaty 8 covers from Height of Rockies, E. forever, S basically to Peace reach. Yet in spite of the treaty, they maintain the bottom of the trench is theirs also. Inside this traditional area there is a vast amount of hunting accessible to all.

[JAGRMEISTER]

You do not need permission! it is traditional, not dedicated reserve!
Otherwise nobody would hunt in 7-b as it is all "traditional" land. It gives the local indigenous people a geographic area where they can hunt at any time of year, any species, any sex, unless on the endangered list.

[Mosin]

That's ironic because pretty much all of my FN friends and family do not drink alcohol. On the other hand, my non-FN friends from work etc. cannot cope without it. :wink: Funny how that is, but what do I know about stereotyping.

I have many fn friends, some don't drink and some drink like fish, oh wait my white and east Indian friends are the same way. Funny how that works eh?

[Bugle M In]

i say we blockade the grocery stores and wall marts.

Better yet...blockade the reserves....and don't let them out!

[bloody bellies]

you can pay 175bucks to the blueberry band at pink mountain for an access fee if you are hunting, I think its 75 bucks if your just passing through, I don't believe people that live on reserves pay taxes unless the government get monies from the band, I look at it , as soon as they leave the reserve they are on my land , I pay taxes for roads, they should pay me.Like ive posted in the fishing section, how long do you have to live in Canada and be on this earth before my fishing or hunting is classified as a staple food? Ive been eating game and fish for over forty years. Somehow some way we all must beable to voice our opinions in a formal way to our government,, just not sure how, where it is actually heard.

[bloody bellies]

That's ironic because pretty much all of my FN friends and family do not drink alcohol. On the other hand, my non-FN friends from work etc. cannot cope without it. :wink: Funny how that is, but what do I know about stereotyping.

WHAT? where do you live?

[Jelvis]

These fires going on right now are getting the tungs wagging in many areas in BC as to you know what.
Jelvis -- Don't fear the reeeper -- > lots of stuff between two peoples and the fence post about after these are done, as you can maybe not imagine at this par tick you lar time.
----- Just Imagine by J Lennon ----- whad iz being dee s cussed -- ?

[Xenomorph]

you can pay 175bucks to the blueberry band at pink mountain for an access fee if you are hunting, I think its 75 bucks if your just passing through, I don't believe people that live on reserves pay taxes unless the government get monies from the band, I look at it , as soon as they leave the reserve they are on my land , I pay taxes for roads, they should pay me.Like ive posted in the fishing section, how long do you have to live in Canada and be on this earth before my fishing or hunting is classified as a staple food? Ive been eating game and fish for over forty years. Somehow some way we all must beable to voice our opinions in a formal way to our government,, just not sure how, where it is actually heard.


More and more I think there is a vested interest in removing as much of the power of the middle class, and dumbing down the electorate to a point where the sheep are easy to heard and fool as much as the government needs it.

I have never in my life thought it would be the time for political activism, but here it is folks, anyone caring about their rights as a whole should be very, very careful not to miss a vote, a march, a letter written, a banging of the protest banner or a I WILL NOT ****ING TOLERATE THIS BULLSHIT moment.

Few have the guts to make a change, make a stand and DO it, stand by it. I am not talking about a word here and there, this whole thing necesitates action and commitment. Our government is just another corporation acting in the best interest of other corporations and not governing for the people.

What bothers me the most is the attitude, I HAVE WON now and I do not care about the rest, and yes I am referring at JT and how now having dismantled Harpers legislation we ended up with a 10+ mil payout to a convicted terrorist, instead of being able to deport his sorry ass.

These next few years require us to get together and talk, and put our minds and actions together. Ladies and gents this is it, one of the defining moments of our generation. Are you going to bend and give in, are you going to stand tall and make your mark known ...

Which one will it be?

[Ourea]

Xman....welcome to politics.

[303savage]

"traditional territory " I don't think the signs mean a darn thing. All of north america was their traditional territory.

[Linksman313]

More and more I think there is a vested interest in removing as much of the power of the middle class, and dumbing down the electorate to a point where the sheep are easy to heard and fool as much as the government needs it.

I have never in my life thought it would be the time for political activism, but here it is folks, anyone caring about their rights as a whole should be very, very careful not to miss a vote, a march, a letter written, a banging of the protest banner or a I WILL NOT ****ING TOLERATE THIS BULLSHIT moment.

Few have the guts to make a change, make a stand and DO it, stand by it. I am not talking about a word here and there, this whole thing necesitates action and commitment. Our government is just another corporation acting in the best interest of other corporations and not governing for the people.

What bothers me the most is the attitude, I HAVE WON now and I do not care about the rest, and yes I am referring at JT and how now having dismantled Harpers legislation we ended up with a 10+ mil payout to a convicted terrorist, instead of being able to deport his sorry ass.

These next few years require us to get together and talk, and put our minds and actions together. Ladies and gents this is it, one of the defining moments of our generation. Are you going to bend and give in, are you going to stand tall and make your mark known ...

Which one will it be?

X-Man - this couldn't be said better!

[sawmill]

Unless it`s fenced or posted or has a crop or is designated Rez on it then I hunt it. Crown land .

[boxhitch]

Xenomorph, you make it sound like the politicians make the decisions. Seems they just default to the Supreme Court for direction. SCC makes a determination, and the rest of us make the apologies

[Bugle M In]

Xenomorph, you make it sound like the politicians make the decisions. Seems they just default to the Supreme Court for direction. SCC makes a determination, and the rest of us make the apologies

most of the politicians, and I know one who did screw it up for us in the past (ndp'er), who gave the fn to much are
really just "lawyers"....thus it ending up in courts etc like you say.
The one thing about lawyers is...they don't always care about what if right, or for the good of everyone etc.
"they just want to WIN their argument...regardless of the implications down the road.

And for those who think their are some racists comments being made....let me put it to you this way...

I am a native...native BC'r....this is the only home I have ever known.
Thus, native was removed and the term "aboriginal" given.
Basically instating "Segregation" into the Country.

I thought segregation was to be stopped. and all citizens be given the same rights....no more...no less,
no matter what color or financial position in society..


So, I am not aboriginal....My ancestry is European (German/Prussian etc...mainly German).

So...should I go back to Germany...then ask/demand that I be given "aboriginal status"....
(because... hey...lets face it...I too come from some "ancestral territory"....that was not in your territory)

Do I then say, anybody that is not white. or better, not from this "ancestral territory"...to get the F'out???

Ironically, that was done in the past....and it was wrong....right....we all know that.
It was called "racist"....right...we agree on that....I should hope.
So....I cannot kick someone out who is not of the same ancestry as I am in my "traditional aboriginal territory".
Instead....I am to welcome everyone....
Everyone who abides by the laws etc.

But... here in Canada, and more so BC, I am know having to deal with "Ancestry rights"...and am now be
blocked to go and travel where I want...where I am "legally" allowed to be.
Seems like the pendulum, for those who were discriminated upon in the past...have now been given...should I say..
"Special Status" .. have taken that pendulum and swung it the other way.....
It is now the Aboriginals....who have become "racist"...by "Segregating" themselves (thru the help of lawyers)...
To now "denying access" to none aboriginals.....
Doesn't that sound like Germany back in the 30's and 40's......
And you know that was wrong......
So...in the end...denying ....Blockading..."Legal Law abiding Citizens of Canada" and in this case....
Residents of BC....is illegal, and based on a racist action.

[bloody bellies]

most of the politicians, and I know one who did screw it up for us in the past (ndp'er), who gave the fn to much are
really just "lawyers"....thus it ending up in courts etc like you say.
The one thing about lawyers is...they don't always care about what if right, or for the good of everyone etc.
"they just want to WIN their argument...regardless of the implications down the road.

And for those who think their are some racists comments being made....let me put it to you this way...

I am a native...native BC'r....this is the only home I have ever known.
Thus, native was removed and the term "aboriginal" given.
Basically instating "Segregation" into the Country.

I thought segregation was to be stopped. and all citizens be given the same rights....no more...no less,
no matter what color or financial position in society..


So, I am not aboriginal....My ancestry is European (German/Prussian etc...mainly German).

So...should I go back to Germany...then ask/demand that I be given "aboriginal status"....
(because... hey...lets face it...I too come from some "ancestral territory"....that was not in your territory)

Do I then say, anybody that is not white. or better, not from this "ancestral territory"...to get the F'out???

Ironically, that was done in the past....and it was wrong....right....we all know that.
It was called "racist"....right...we agree on that....I should hope.
So....I cannot kick someone out who is not of the same ancestry as I am in my "traditional aboriginal territory".
Instead....I am to welcome everyone....
Everyone who abides by the laws etc.

But... here in Canada, and more so BC, I am know having to deal with "Ancestry rights"...and am now be
blocked to go and travel where I want...where I am "legally" allowed to be.
Seems like the pendulum, for those who were discriminated upon in the past...have now been given...should I say..
"Special Status" .. have taken that pendulum and swung it the other way.....
It is now the Aboriginals....who have become "racist"...by "Segregating" themselves (thru the help of lawyers)...
To now "denying access" to none aboriginals.....
Doesn't that sound like Germany back in the 30's and 40's......
And you know that was wrong......
So...in the end...denying ....Blockading..."Legal Law abiding Citizens of Canada" and in this case....
Residents of BC....is illegal, and based on a racist action.

Interesting you feel this way. You are 1 of the few. There is a big difference between some one who owns their land and actually put their own money into buying their property, take farmers for example, they don't let people always hunt on their property, but it is their right they put their sweat and money into it and have earned that right, as for aboriginals this is not the case, the land was given to them and most still are arguing in courts for more land to take for free. Then Aboriginals proceed to block people from entering their supposed land, why cant aboriginal people accept that it is their land but still allow access to the rest of Canada, why are borders put up, they did not buy the land, they don't pay taxes for that land, they still get grants from the government to build housing on their lands, lots of reserves actually make money from their lands sell commodities back to the normal tax payer but the commodities are not taxed as if non aboriginal people are selling the commodity. Sorry but there will always be a sour taste in my mouth towards the aboriginal people due to the fact always wanting more for nothing.

[Pemby_mess]

Interesting you feel this way. You are 1 of the few. There is a big difference between some one who owns their land and actually put their own money into buying their property, take farmers for example, they don't let people always hunt on their property, but it is their right they put their sweat and money into it and have earned that right, as for aboriginals this is not the case, the land was given to them and most still are arguing in courts for more land to take for free. Then Aboriginals proceed to block people from entering their supposed land, why cant aboriginal people accept that it is their land but still allow access to the rest of Canada, why are borders put up, they did not buy the land, they don't pay taxes for that land, they still get grants from the government to build housing on their lands, lots of reserves actually make money from their lands sell commodities back to the normal tax payer but the commodities are not taxed as if non aboriginal people are selling the commodity. Sorry but there will always be a sour taste in my mouth towards the aboriginal people due to the fact always wanting more for nothing.

i think some of you guys could have most of your questions answered by doing some basic, open minded research into the legal background of First Nation title in Canada.

One of the essential institutions that allows a democracy to function, is an independent judiciary able to apply thousands of years of legal thought toward any particular legislation. In other words, the SCC. If it were just legislators making laws on the whims of the masses, any kind of governNce recognizable as a democracy would not be long for this world. In our system, everyone is ultimately accountable to someone else.

First Nations don't have special rights becuAse some sap of a judge feels they were subject to historic rasicism. Most of their rights were negotiatied in the long process of Canadian colonialism. Your property rights are enshrined once you exchange something of value to obtain them. The "crown" didn't buy its land in Canada per se either, but they did agree to exchange something of value in exchange for the use of it. Most of which they have largely reneged on in some fashion. There is debate whether it was even understood that the title to the land as its defined in common law was what was being exchanged, or whether it could be seen as some kind of leasing/tenure agreement. In the case of BC, the negotiations didn't even get that far and most colonization was done post Indian Act, where the crown kidnapped Fn kids and cordoned off the adults onto POW camps otherwise known as "reservations". The title to their land was never forfeighted to the crown, hence the term many bands use: "unceded land". This was all done in contravention to the way we apllied the laws to Europeans, hence the huge legal liabilities before the courts.

i assure you, we're not allowing title claims out of "white guilt". The courts will more often find in favour of FN claims, because more often then not, they are closer to conforming with the law than the crown's position.

[VFX_man]

Have a curious question . . . If there is the call for "traditional" lands, why can there not be a call for "traditional" harvest tools -- i.e. no "modern/powder" firearms can be used in "traditional" hunts on "traditional" lands.

[Pemby_mess]

"traditional territory " I don't think the signs mean a darn thing. All of north america was their traditional territory.

that may be the way you see it, but it's clearly not how the plaintiffs in the matter do. The latter probably being closer to legal reality. FN groups see themselves and their interests as distinct from one an other, not as a single group of amalgamated, legislated status of secondary citizen. Increasingly, as they make their case in our court rooms, most legal minds are inclined to agree.

When/if people in Canada see the consequences of FN claims coming to fruition, there will be a much stronger push for our governments to negotiate these claims fairly and quickly. Yet our position grows weaker by the day. They're already having serious affects on resource industry in at least BC.

The mining company I'm involved with, has deliberately worked with BC,AB and QB FN as partners to all of our mutual benefit.

[303savage]

You forgot liquor stores.

[Pemby_mess]

Have a curious question . . . If there is the call for "traditional" lands, why can there not be a call for "traditional" harvest tools -- i.e. no "modern/powder" firearms can be used in "traditional" hunts on "traditional" lands.

i think you could make a case for that. As an example, I believe that has been the compromise arrived at when looking at Salish traditional whale hunting down in Washington state. I believe they are restricted to using certain tools and prohibited from others.

it would be important to separate their historic resource right from their spiritual rights. For example they could make the case that if a species declined to population numbers that couldn't support a traditional resource harvest, that they may still be sllowed a reduced harvest using traditional tools for ceremonial purposes.

claiming that a culture has exclusively over certain kinds of technology is really problematic when you start thinking of overseeing the pragmatic implications of that being carried out.

[Pemby_mess]

You forgot liquor stores.

what about them?

[IronNoggin]

... As an example, I believe that has been the compromise arrived at when looking at Salish traditional whale hunting down in Washington state. I believe they are restricted to using certain tools and prohibited from others...

And you would be wrong in that assumption.
I was directly involved in the purchase of 50 caliber rifles specifically for that hunt (which btw they chose themselves over darting guns bearing penthrite grenades). Example does not work.


One of the essential institutions that allows a democracy to function, is an independent judiciary able to apply thousands of years of legal thought toward any particular legislation. In other words, the SCC.

Nor in this case does the SCC. They have made far too many biased decisions in favor of very sketchy FN pleas to be considered anywhere near what you suggest. Case in point: Jacklights and night hunting with spotlights / trucks / high powered rifles.

Cheers,
Nog

[Pemby_mess]

And you would be wrong in that assumption.
I was directly involved in the purchase of 50 caliber rifles specifically for that hunt (which btw they chose themselves over darting guns bearing penthrite grenades). Example does not work.

I don't know that much about it, so i'll defer to your knowledge surrounding it. I just remember there being a decade long conversation about the use of traditional tools in parallel with ancient cultural rights.




Nor in this case does the SCC. They have made far too many biased decisions in favor of very sketchy FN pleas to be considered anywhere near what you suggest. Case in point: Jacklights and night hunting with spotlights / trucks / high powered rifles.

Cheers,
Nog

i'm not saying the system is perfect by any stretch, or that poor decisions don't still get passed; but having an independent group of judges using measured reasoning, tested with centuries of thought behind it, is by far better than Having legislative bodies alone, accountable only to a fickle, ignorant mob. I'll insist that a democratic system would be sunk quite quickly without it. Poor decisions can be appealed on merit and well placed faith in the system sees them corrected eventually.

[bloody bellies]

I don't know that much about it, so i'll defer to your knowledge surrounding it. I just remember there being a decade long conversation about the use of traditional tools in parallel with ancient cultural rights.





i'm not saying the system is perfect by any stretch, or that poor decisions don't still get passed; but having an independent group of judges using measured reasoning, tested with centuries of thought behind it, is by far better than Having legislative bodies alone, accountable only to a fickle, ignorant mob. I'll insist that a democratic system would be sunk quite quickly without it. Poor decisions can be appealed on merit and well placed faith in the system sees them corrected eventually.

A fickle ignorant mob is probably 95% of Canada that does not agree with what the courts and government decide to keep giving FN. Walk the street and get peoples opinions, this topic is always a conversation in EVERYONES household in Canada, and every conversation that I've heard not 1 person supports what the FN gets. I live right beside a Reserve and about 2 months ago at the local pub the local FN people where having a raffle night, and toonie toss, guess what it was for? To support them so they could take their kids to Disneyland, shall I go on, I shall, lets go back to 1992 aprox when sockeye was open on the Fraser, and there were road side sales for a buck a fish, the FN member that was selling these fish could sell them for a buck, cause he had around 2 thousand fish to sell, these are not rumors for as ive seen myself. Traditional hunting techniques, ya right, I may be mistaken but it looked like 50hp Yamahas on the backs of the canoes when hunting whales. Did not realize they had trucks when hunting buffalo, did not realize they had outboards on their canoes when netting fish, did not realize they sold fish, they traded, like I've said before we all as a whole need to somehow put an end to this ongoing fiasco before our kids/grandkids/great grand kids have no where to hunt nor fish, ill be 1 of the first in line if there is any kind of petition, ralley, or organization that actually stands up for people in the hunting/ fishing community to support.

[Corb89]

OK, ive read my fill of the stereo type bullshit....for those of you who dont know...I Corb89 Corben Clarkson am a status indian..the indian side of my family is from the west moberly reserve THE largest treaty territory in canada.
go on with your "liquor store" jokes...we're not all the same...i buy my hunting/fishing licences same as you....i follow provincial regulations better than alot of you racist assholes
im ashamed to be on this site with you whining ****s...im out! **** all of you

[IronNoggin]

i'm not saying the system is perfect by any stretch, or that poor decisions don't still get passed...

When it comes to FN related decisions, the SCC has made a habit of this. It's simply reality, one that most dislike, but do understand is occurring on a repetitive basis...


Poor decisions can be appealed on merit and well placed faith in the system sees them corrected eventually.

Waiting on this to happen, as related to the issues in question, is much akin to awaiting hell freezing over.

Really

Nog

[HappyJack]

that may be the way you see it, but it's clearly not how the plaintiffs in the matter do. The latter probably being closer to legal reality. FN groups see themselves and their interests as distinct from one an other, not as a single group of amalgamated, legislated status of secondary citizen. Increasingly, as they make their case in our court rooms, most legal minds are inclined to agree.

When/if people in Canada see the consequences of FN claims coming to fruition, there will be a much stronger push for our governments to negotiate these claims fairly and quickly. Yet our position grows weaker by the day. They're already having serious affects on resource industry in at least BC.

The mining company I'm involved with, has deliberately worked with BC,AB and QB FN as partners to all of our mutual benefit.

I've said that for years, the longer our governments drag their tail on settling treaties, the more it costs us. I often wonder if they did this to BC on purpose to suppress our economic opportunities??

[HappyJack]

OK, ive read my fill of the stereo type bullshit....for those of you who dont know...I Corb89 Corben Clarkson am a status indian..the indian side of my family is from the west moberly reserve THE largest treaty territory in canada.
go on with your "liquor store" jokes...we're not all the same...i buy my hunting/fishing licences same as you....i follow provincial regulations better than alot of you racist assholes
im ashamed to be on this site with you whining ****s...im out! **** all of you

Didn't they know?? Shameful.

[Looking_4_Jerky]

OK, ive read my fill of the stereo type bullshit....for those of you who dont know...I Corb89 Corben Clarkson am a status indian..the indian side of my family is from the west moberly reserve THE largest treaty territory in canada.
go on with your "liquor store" jokes...we're not all the same...i buy my hunting/fishing licences same as you....i follow provincial regulations better than alot of you racist assholes
im ashamed to be on this site with you whining ****s...im out! **** all of you

Hey Corb,

Please allow me to disassociate myself from almost every member on this site and say that I'm sorry the mods on this site do a super-shitty job in filtering bigotry, racism, bullying and belittling comments from the threads.

There are a few people on this site who have a clue what they're talking about when it comes to aboriginal rights, aboriginal title areas, property held in fee simple, and reservation land. Unfortunately, they are a minority and not overly vocal. I don't blame them. It gets old trying to explain something when people just don't want to hear or understand it. They don't like the shitty legacy that they inherited from our political forefathers. Neither do I really, but understanding how it came to be helps me cope with the fact that I am a descendant of a non-aboriginal culture that finds itself here in many cases illegally, and at very least, with lesser hunting rights than aboriginals. Am I envious that aboriginals' right to hunt is entrenched in the constitution and mine is not? You betcha. Do I reluctantly accept the reality of our nation's (and specifically, our Province's) cultural history and what it means today? Yes.

As an answer to the original question:

Although the title "traditional territory" has implications on aboriginal hunting rights, it does not equate to FN reserve lands nor lands held in fee simple (private), and thus isn't off-limits, unless perhaps they have marked their reserve boundary with those signs, in which case they can control access because it is FN reserve, not because it's traditional territory. A quick search in the "administrative layers" folder in IMAP BC will reveal whether the spot is on reserve or not.

[bloody bellies]

Hey Corb,

Please allow me to disassociate myself from almost every member on this site and say that I'm sorry the mods on this site do a super-shitty job in filtering bigotry, racism, bullying and belittling comments from the threads.

There are a few people on this site who have a clue what they're talking about when it comes to aboriginal rights, aboriginal title areas, property held in fee simple, and reservation land. Unfortunately, they are a minority and not overly vocal. I don't blame them. It gets old trying to explain something when people just don't want to hear or understand it. They don't like the shitty legacy that they inherited from our political forefathers. Neither do I really, but understanding how it came to be helps me cope with the fact that I am a descendant of a non-aboriginal culture that finds itself here in many cases illegally, and at very least, with lesser hunting rights than aboriginals. Am I envious that aboriginals' right to hunt is entrenched in the constitution and mine is not? You betcha. Do I reluctantly accept the reality of our nation's (and specifically, our Province's) cultural history and what it means today? Yes.

As an answer to the original question:

Although the title "traditional territory" has implications on aboriginal hunting rights, it does not equate to FN reserve lands nor lands held in fee simple (private), and thus isn't off-limits, unless perhaps they have marked their reserve boundary with those signs, in which case they can control access because it is FN reserve, not because it's traditional territory. A quick search in the "administrative layers" folder in IMAP BC will reveal whether the spot is on reserve or not.

Not sure where in this thread was there a lot of stereotyping , bigotry, racism, bullying and belittling, except for 1 comment on a liquor store, Read from the beginning, a lot of facts were said and opinions, which every member should be able to express without the 5 items you mention. sometimes the truth hurts abit.

[Whiterock]

Simply put,,I think we would all get along better,,if there was only one set of rules,,that we all, had to follow,,,but that would take a government with a spine, to impliment.

[Pemby_mess]

Simply put,,I think we would all get along better,,if there was only one set of rules,,that we all, had to follow,,,but that would take a government with a spine, to impliment.

i think it might be more appropriate to say that we'd get along better if everybody understood what the rules actually are and not just pontificate on how things are reflected in the way the rules should be, in their personal opinions; however uninformed they may be.

there is one set of rules - it's called Canadian law; legislation and common law. Civil, criminal and various other specialties. The system provides that if you are owed some particular right by someone else, that you be able to make a case and enforce that right. The same system allows for others to negotiate their interests on their own behalf just as you do yours, even if those interests may be antipathetic to your own.

the real issue, is Canada didn't allow FN to appropriately negotiate and enforce their interests in good faith for a significant period of time. That was criminal - hmmm, maybe the old saying "crime doesn't pay" does come back to haunt you when the law comes back into balance. We should acknowledge that fact as a society so that a) we can prevent it from creating future liabilities that we'll have to come up with a way to pay, and b) it doesn't happen to "us" as well.

[Pemby_mess]

Waiting on this to happen, as related to the issues in question, is much akin to awaiting hell freezing over.

Really

Nog

welcome to how the other side must have felt for the last 150 years.

[Whiterock]

I am a motorcyclist,,3 sets of rules...I am a boater,,2 sets,,,I am a hunter, 2 sets,,dont need a reply,to this,,its fact. Im out.

[hawk-i]

2 sets of rules only apply if the sheeple allow them by following them.

[Bugle M In]

i think it might be more appropriate to say that we'd get along better if everybody understood what the rules actually are and not just pontificate on how things are reflected in the way the rules should be, in their personal opinions; however uninformed they may be.

there is one set of rules - it's called Canadian law; legislation and common law. Civil, criminal and various other specialties. The system provides that if you are owed some particular right by someone else, that you be able to make a case and enforce that right. The same system allows for others to negotiate their interests on their own behalf just as you do yours, even if those interests may be antipathetic to your own.

the real issue, is Canada didn't allow FN to appropriately negotiate and enforce their interests in good faith for a significant period of time. That was criminal - hmmm, maybe the old saying "crime doesn't pay" does come back to haunt you when the law comes back into balance. We should acknowledge that fact as a society so that a) we can prevent it from creating future liabilities that we'll have to come up with a way to pay, and b) it doesn't happen to "us" as well.
your Quote "there is one set of rules"......
That is where the issue lays......
The FN Blockades are "illegal"....yet that "one set of rules does not apply....atleast not if it is done by FN.
If I, a resident hunter/s, set up the same blockade...then that one set of rules applies...
It is not a 2-way street anymore.
But, I guess one day, there will be a fallout from this inequality that is going on.
Just don't know when or where it will happen....but it will.
Another saying as someone said " crime doesn't pay"...true....
But, another saying is "2 wrongs don't make a right".....
We are now at the "2 wrongs don't make a right" stage.....
I have nothing against FN....have met some really nice people that are FN over the years.
Just like residents (non FN), there are some Residents and FN who are just jerks (to put it lightly), but,
that doesn't apply to everyone.
The truth is....the planet is "too small" to have different sets of rules for different groups.
FN have to accept the fact, as we all do, that the planet is becoming more heavily populated by the day....and snowballing.
Traditional territories will have to be a thing of the past...
As I said, this is my home, my native land as well....its the only place I have ever known....just like any FN.
I have as much right to access all the places in BC that are legal for me to be.
Blockades are illegal, and should be seen as such....no matter how you slice it.
God, if this had been China, this wouldn't even be a conversation to talk about.

There are 2 sets of rules in BC right now....not one.....which it should be....and that is the point I am trying to make.
My point is not "racists based".....it's just what is going on.

If I were to say "only people in BC who live here 12 months a year, can only buy a house here in BC"...
Does that make me racists???
Just because the majority of those who buy houses, who are foreigners, are mainly Asian...is my comment and
proposal now "racist"????
No, it could effect anyone.....germans, western European etc.

I do agree, throwing in the comment " liquor store etc" are inappropriate....and racist stereotyping.

All I am saying is....it should be one law for us all.
And if I say "maybe we should block the "reservations"....that isn't racist...
I am just putting the point across of what the FN are doing to the rest of us with there "illegal blockades"

The reality is....there is no one going to SCC to fight some of these matters on the behalf of residents of BC.
Until a group is put together, that can raise money thru fundraisers and membership etc...
There will never be the "money" to fight these situations that are going on right now in court.
If balance is to come back to this province and elsewhere...that is what is needed to make it happen....
So until then....this BS with blockades and Traditional territories will continue...
It would be appropriate to bring this to court...much gentler to settle in this manner....
But...no one on the Government wants to take this on right now....so unfortunately...
there is a risk that "extreme situations" make develop at some point due to this situation right now.
And that is a "no win" for anybody...just people at risk of getting hurt.
One planet, one land...one rule is all I am saying.
Time to bring the "pendulum" back to the "middle"....that's all

[Looking_4_Jerky]

i think it might be more appropriate to say that we'd get along better if everybody understood what the rules actually are and not just pontificate on how things are reflected in the way the rules should be, in their personal opinions; however uninformed they may be.

there is one set of rules - it's called Canadian law; legislation and common law. Civil, criminal and various other specialties. The system provides that if you are owed some particular right by someone else, that you be able to make a case and enforce that right. The same system allows for others to negotiate their interests on their own behalf just as you do yours, even if those interests may be antipathetic to your own.

the real issue, is Canada didn't allow FN to appropriately negotiate and enforce their interests in good faith for a significant period of time. That was criminal - hmmm, maybe the old saying "crime doesn't pay" does come back to haunt you when the law comes back into balance. We should acknowledge that fact as a society so that a) we can prevent it from creating future liabilities that we'll have to come up with a way to pay, and b) it doesn't happen to "us" as well.

Pemby, thank you. You are literally the only voice of reason I have heard throughout this whole thread. If even a quarter of the respondents in this thread had close to a clue about any of the content of your post, it would give me some level of hope that one day, people might get it rather than continue to ignore history and the ramifications that our own colonialism has wrought on us.

[Looking_4_Jerky]

your Quote "there is one set of rules"......

Time to bring the "pendulum" back to the "middle"....that's all

Bugle, I hear you, and ideally, the pendulum will fall in the middle one day. Unfortunately, in order to correct the wrongs that were instituted during colonialism, the pendulum has had to swing to the other side. I think it would be unrealistic to expect anything else. That would be expecting any and all legacy items left from our colonialism to be reversed willingly and with no objection from government and non-aboriginals. Not going to happen, hence our whole discussion in this thread. People don't like the process and time involved for the pendulum to come to rest.

[wideopenthrottle]

I grew up in a place called Kenora and was very familiar with the sad state of native culture compared to what we romanticize it to be....as a compassionate and fair minded person with many native friends I couldn't help but feel "white guilt"....after reading the histories of other people and cultures of the world, I went from feeling sorry to wondering when the natives would finally break the cycle of self loathing and self pity and become good Canadians....here are a couple topics to help.....highland clearances.........Irish potatoes famine.....Indian caste system...world war 2 German siege on the Russian front...South African appartied...people have been killing (and much worse) each other completely wiping out entire races/religions for all of recorded time and nothing done to natives in Canada is any worse than what other cultures have faced...in fact the king of England enacted some special rights for Canadian natives that have actually allowed them to live as they do instead of moving ahead....the reality is that times change and some rules and or promises made in the past no longer make any sense........you used to be able to squat on land and eventually claim it as your own....natives deserve a fair chance to connect to the land like everyone else that is super important ...but do not tilt the table to the point where you give any people opportunity to abuse the land we love....unfairness can not be "righted" with another wrong especially if it is our country that suffers as a result...

[Bugle M In]

Bugle, I hear you, and ideally, the pendulum will fall in the middle one day. Unfortunately, in order to correct the wrongs that were instituted during colonialism, the pendulum has had to swing to the other side. I think it would be unrealistic to expect anything else. That would be expecting any and all legacy items left from our colonialism to be reversed willingly and with no objection from government and non-aboriginals. Not going to happen, hence our whole discussion in this thread. People don't like the process and time involved for the pendulum to come to rest.

Yes, the pendulum had to swing hard...true...as things did need to be looked at.
It would be fair to say that now, if all the FN band leaders have done a good job, that they should now have
some financial security.
But the traditional territory legacy has to come to an end....
FN have to accept "or swallow" the fact that others live here too.
FN can say they are the 1st people, but I was the 1st people somewhere too.....
Now it should be about protecting and enjoying our wildlife and the habitat etc....for everyone.
It's "everyone's territory" now.....that is just a fact....just like the fact that the city of Vancouver is growing.
You can't stop it....
Reality is...there has been injustices in every part of society all over the planet etc...
Even in Europe, there has been conflict and wars and genocides etc....and people saying this is "my land"...not yours etc.
That doesn't work.
The Jewish community always talks about their genocide...but ....it's happened everywhere and not just to them.
People all over the world have been pushed around and stepped on and worse....
That is just how it is....and hopefully that we are learning to stop that from continuing etc.
The FN have to realize and accept...that this is just what humans are like at times...
It shouldn't come as a surprise....as Different FN Bands also fought each other.....
Again...just human nature....not a color thing....
That is the real truth....the weak will always be displaced and picked on...
What would happen if something tragic happen, and we lost the court system etc.....
IT would once again become what it was....just human nature.
So....the sooner we all join hands...the sooner we all accept that we have to share equally...
the better we can support each other....work together....and stay together...even if things took a turn for the worst.
As long as we continue with separate laws (segregation), you will continue to feed discrimination (racism).....
And with that....no one is safe....as the kindling is there for "human nature" to once again fire up.
Just a fact of life on this planet...

[Pemby_mess]

^ well, if what's good for the goose is good for the gander, remind me to do business with you sometime. Tell you what.........we'll negotiate a contract together where you allow me to re-develop your house into a condo. I'll agree to give you a 1000% return. Then, once I get paid in full for the project, I'll tell you to go get lost - no biggie right? You'll move on, put your energy into an other deal, right?

oh no, you won't move on? You'll try to get your property back or compensation in lieu? Yeah I guess that makes sense.

Ok ok well then, I'll get together with my buddy the judge, my other buddy the prosecuter, and together we'll fabricate some story where you're a thief, addict, and a rapist or otherwise just a menace to society and have you locked up. That should solve the problem.

See the problem here? People really need to understand Canada's history better. We didn't wage war against FN as a country. We negotiated for our place here. If the rule of law is how we wish to interact with each other, then we have to figure out where on the timeline we wish to apply it. Otherwise it's a childhood game of "startingggg now!.....no, I mean now, ok I lost, I mean startingggg now!"

see the point?

[wideopenthrottle]

, two wrongs don't make a right...united we stand divided we fall....forgive and forget...live and let live...those are better words to live by than do unto others before they do unto you. Or revenge is a dish best served cold...barely 100 years ago some people would get their hand cut off for theft ...times change and rules change...50 years ago two reserves near where I lived waged open warfare on each other...we are a tribal animal....we need to make our tribe bigger and more inclusive not create divisions...compensation and restitution must b equitable and give the desired result of fairness in our society or it will only breed contempt

[wideopenthrottle]

Where I am here in England, the land has been forcefully taken over and over dozens of times...those people were all killed and that is the reality of what could have been in Canada...because the natives were allowed to live on reserves they were spared death..that it the reality of the past
in Scotland there was enough extra land that some scots were spared death and placed on reserves instead...they had their children taken and put in special schools and were not allowed to speak their native language or practice their pagan religion....sound familiar

[Pemby_mess]

Bringing the pendulum back to the middle isn't about somehow righting all the wrongs of the past. The only way to get this stuff sorted out, is through proactive negotiation on the part of our governments and getting representative leadership into the hands of individual fN. FN will have to make some major concessions in their positions in order to get a deal they can live with. But so will the Crown - that's how negotiation works. Both parties will feel a little hard done by at the end of it, yet in a better position than they were before the negotiation began. It's in the interest of everybody to get all this done asap.

the alternative is we can continue playing a game of death by a thousand cuts in the Supreme Court as the Crown tries to hang onto an untenable position in Vain. Meanwhile the Chinese (much better negotiators than either party) will come in to capitalize on the disharmony in governance and we'll all find ourselves in the position that the aboriginals have found themselves in.

[Pemby_mess]

Where I am here in England, the land has been forcefully taken over and over dozens of times...those people were all killed and that is the reality of what could have been in Canada...because the natives were allowed to live on reserves they were spared death..that it the reality of the past

please.....that is so dumb. No organization of people ever has taken over an other and just killed them all. That, even as an ideology is incredibly rare, but let's start by just saying, seldom does one society even have the resources to conduct such an exercise on an other. The second point, is that typically the other society being consumed by the larger is typically viewed at some point as a resource itself to allow for future expansion.

the British isles are actually a perfect example of the latter, which ultimately continued out to the world. In fact their system of law, which puts is derived, was their greatest weapon- as it is ours.

[wideopenthrottle]

Wow your ignorance of history surprises me....yes losers were killed off...like as in all of them ...in many many eons of history...do you know anything about the scottish highland clearances..."rebels" were killed and sold into slavery to clear the land of peasants....

Irish peasants were not needed in such high numbers to grow grain as they were needed to grow potatoes so they were starved to death in spite of plentiful food being grown...

if if you can find it, read "Soil and Soul" by Alastair McIntosh....it is one of the first books to change my "white guilt" to annoyance

[wideopenthrottle]

I guess my point is that there have been many ways to deal with "locals" when conquering lands...the Canadian natives actually got treated better than many others that are no longer around to complain...even our natives killed off rival tribes even women and children
i really wish we could just put the violence and racism behind us instead of propagating it further we are all in the same tribe now as Canadians

[sawmill]

I don`t have white guilt. I`m not a Catholic priest. I don`t even have Catholic guilt. Not a Dogan. I have no guilt whatsoever. Never screwed anybody over, never stole land (or anything else) never picked on the little guys at school. I AM sick of every whining Indian, LGBTQ( not sure what all the letters stand for) and every body else who wants special considerations because...actually don`t know why. I don`t get special breaks, a straight white 5 gen Canadian. I`m lucky if I get a small tax return check once a year. If I fall down nobody rushes to save my white ass with programs and support.
Paint a rainbow crosswalk on my street, dare you. Try to repo my hard earned paid for property because your ancestor pooped there a million years ago.. Yeah, luck with that. If I dig up strange bones while gardening...they go in my collection of cool shit. Bad enough our tax dollars go to a killer terrorist ,be damned if I have to like it or any other stupid snowflake shit that`s flying around these days. But, be as sensitive as you want, just don`t come to my house and expect a cold drink. I am SICK of this touchy feely shit.

[VFX_man]

please.....that is so dumb. No organization of people ever has taken over an other and just killed them all. That, even as an ideology is incredibly rare, but let's start by just saying, seldom does one society even have the resources to conduct such an exercise on an other. The second point, is that typically the other society being consumed by the larger is typically viewed at some point as a resource itself to allow for future expansion.

the British isles are actually a perfect example of the latter, which ultimately continued out to the world. In fact their system of law, which puts is derived, was their greatest weapon- as it is ours.

Very sad to be a human reading our track record worldwide . . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history

[Pemby_mess]

Wow your ignorance of history surprises me....yes losers were killed off...like as in all of them ...in many many eons of history...do you know anything about the scottish highland clearances..."rebels" were killed and sold into slavery to clear the land of peasants....

Irish peasants were not needed in such high numbers to grow grain as they were needed to grow potatoes so they were starved to death in spite of plentiful food being grown...

if if you can find it, read "Soil and Soul" by Alastair McIntosh....it is one of the first books to change my "white guilt" to annoyance

I'd suggest that's it's you who needs to revisit his Canadian history. Conquering was done all over, by a variety of means including the use of incredible violence. That is true here in Canada as much as anywhere else - yes that's true. However you've ignored some important details:

violence (acts or threats) is one of many negotiation strategies. When Canada was being settled we primarily used lawful negotiation over violence for good reason. it was our best tool to negotiate with - far more efficient them the bloody two way risk that warfare presents. It could be argued, that without using law as a tool of conquest, we may not have had the resources to win a warfare campaign here in the North. Certainly confederation as the country of Canada would not have been the result. Autonomous Aboriginal nations were doomed as soon as boats from the west landed in the new world. That's not really up for dispute. However if we had attempted to initiate a campaign of slaughter, slavery, and extermination, we would probably have had our asses handed to us in many battles and ultimately ended up as a) part of the United States b) a conglomeration of failed French colonies of c) a group of failed colonies eventually fallen to the Soviets. Canada was born through trading consideration for various benefits.

you're argument seems to be that FN shouldn't complain and that we shouldn't feel bad for their position because many people around the world faced similar if not worse circumstances. You also seem to infer that we only let them get away with complaining at all or empathize with them for some notion of pity and/or white guilt.

That's an argument that's based on a fundamental logical fallacy known as an appeal to emotion. I'm here to tell you, that I have no cultural guilt whatsoever, nor do I pity FN yet I still argue against a continuance in our colonial mentality. Why? Out of compassion and altruism? No - it's out of reason, pure and simple. the law doesn't generally incorporate emotional fallacies into its decisions either, so you would lose in court if you were trying to use your reasoning as the Crown's position on the matter.

An other thing about the variant of British Common Law that we use to conduct our society; is that it works around the concept of precedent. That means if our colonial conduct of not honoring contracts, improperly imprisoning citizens, sterilizing them, kidnapping their kids and the like was found to be legal, without repercussion, it will now be applied to other laws that affect you - one law for all, right? So if the Crown's decision to round up its citizens and intern them while distributing their land without consideration was found to be justified, I should be able to do the same with your land, or any other property you own. F#ck it! Why do anything legally at all. I certainly wouldn't if the only test was to prove that I benefited and/or that I was momentarily stronger than my opponent.

if we're going to claim that we live in a free law based society, it of utmost importance that the state is allowed to be found accountable. Unfortunately where the state is found to have erred and compensation is due - the state is us.

the solution is negotiate ourselves into a position that all parties can live with and one in which we are both better off before we started.

[wideopenthrottle]

Great link

[wideopenthrottle]

It was justified when taking away Japanese Canadian property in ww2....I am having trouble with your position Pemba as it seems to move around....I don't believe we need a Canadian appartied to right the wrongs...no special status will ever bring us together only drive us apart...humans are tribal and protect their own...as equal Canadians we can work together...

[Surrey Boy]

Gaze on my Privilege and Despair!

So much to troll, so little time.

Time to get a short haircut and a pair of Doc Martens.

[Pemby_mess]

It was justified when taking away Japanese Canadian property in ww2....I am having trouble with your position Pemba as it seems to move around....I don't believe we need a Canadian appartied to right the wrongs...no special status will ever bring us together only drive us apart...humans are tribal and protect their own...as equal Canadians we can work together...

Dont worry WOT, I think you're starting to get it.........8)

(WOT -It was justified when taking away Japanese Canadian property in ww2)

Was it? Has that been legally tested?

Anyways, I don't see any avenue in our legal system for the legal confiscation of their property, but perhaps, their temporary internment given the sentiment of the day and the invocation of extraordinary measures during a war declaration. But who's to say the Japanese won't get together and come after their property at some point in the future?

The he situation with most FN is different by orders of magnitude. They, despite all odds have maintained their distinct status as individual nations and are banned together asking for their property back. They had negotiated special status into agreements that are still legally binding, yet were *******ized through the creation of the Indian Act, modified through multiple iterations. BTW, Give that piece of legislation a scan and see if you continue to come away with the notion that they're advantaged people in our society. They also happen to be able to prove that as distinct nations, they held the original title on much of the land in question. The crown cannot prove that there was any consideration exchanged for use of this land.

I assure you: using "I took his wallet because I had a gun and he was defenseless" is not a defence that would find fav our with Canadian courts.

[Dannybuoy]

I don`t have white guilt. I`m not a Catholic priest. I don`t even have Catholic guilt. Not a Dogan. I have no guilt whatsoever. Never screwed anybody over, never stole land (or anything else) never picked on the little guys at school. I AM sick of every whining Indian, LGBTQ( not sure what all the letters stand for) and every body else who wants special considerations because...actually don`t know why. I don`t get special breaks, a straight white 5 gen Canadian. I`m lucky if I get a small tax return check once a year. If I fall down nobody rushes to save my white ass with programs and support.
Paint a rainbow crosswalk on my street, dare you. Try to repo my hard earned paid for property because your ancestor pooped there a million years ago.. Yeah, luck with that. If I dig up strange bones while gardening...they go in my collection of cool shit. Bad enough our tax dollars go to a killer terrorist ,be damned if I have to like it or any other stupid snowflake shit that`s flying around these days. But, be as sensitive as you want, just don`t come to my house and expect a cold drink. I am SICK of this touchy feely shit.
BEST Post in this thread .... You & I would get along just fine ! Ever want to get out on Kootenay lake with a box of cold ones , you are welcome to give me a shout .

[Pemby_mess]

..I am having trouble with your position Pemba as it seems to move around..

go ahead and point where you are having trouble or where I have been inconsistent.

.
as equal Canadians we can work together...

Sure, but forgive them for the lack of faith in that attitude. That's what was promised in the original negotiations. They will cling to the meager benefits ascribed to them in the Indian act as though it's life and death. Because for the last four or five generations it was.

[wideopenthrottle]

When I mentioned the prevalence of genocide in the past.....you denied it calling the idea dumb..the fact that Canada was not one nation but two waring nations made natives valuable ( as you alluded) as warriors is in fact why they were not obliterated ....had they faced a single unified enemy (Spanish, Dutch, Russian French English or Martian) they would not be as well off (read as they would mostly be dead or assimilated.)...
people have had their land expropriated with unfair compensation throughout our countries brief history so sometimes the rights of the many outweigh the legal rights of the few...It is now after 1 am here so getting too tired to argue but I hope I have made my position clear...the situation reminds me of the woman who is getting Salvador Dali exhumed to get a paternity test done.....she has had a circus form around her claim....

[Pemby_mess]

When I mentioned the prevalence of genocide in the past.....you denied it calling the idea dumb..

Well, first, "genocide" is a pretty loaded word when it comes to describing what happened to aboriginals in either colonial or confederate Canada. I've just finished reading VFX_man's link, and I'll concede that I shouldn't have called the suggestion dumb, and that their were likely a large number of actors with genocidal aspirations throughout the period and that many would view certain elements of our political relationship with Canadian aboriginals as policies of genocide. However, I think the word is often erroneously used in parity to describe cruel, dehumanizing behavior, and/or wartime atrocities and imo don't mean the same thing at all. Used that way, the term genocide, gets applied quite broadly, loses its descriptive value for what it is and the ideology behind it.

I'll continue to maintain that the ideology behind wholesale extermination of an entire people and/or having the resources to see that goal through to completion has been fairly rare in human history. Colonialism becomes much more common somewhere in the process, even if the initial impetus for conflict was genocidal aspiration or tactics of genocide were used by the dominant society to further what really are goals of colonial subjugation.

I still think the reasoning behind the argument of equivalency in Canadian colonialism is somewhat dubious. It shows one is willing to ignore details in the specific context, aptly demonstrated in your next point;


the fact that Canada was not one nation but two waring nations made natives valuable ( as you alluded) as warriors is in fact why they were not obliterated ....had they faced a single unified enemy (Spanish, Dutch, Russian French English or Martian) they would not be as well off (read as they would mostly be dead or assimilated.)...

I think the above is actually a really good analysis of the facts and exactly why Canadian aboriginals found themselves in such a strong negotiating position throughout much of Canada's development. It also speaks to a significant component in the formation of Canada's identity. The European powers did not have the resources to fight on multiple fronts and war eventually gave way to alliances and trading partnerships. A grand vision took hold that eventually amalgamated Canada into a place of reasonableness and compromise using British law as the framework for negotiation. These negotiations are documented to a significant extent and are now being interpreted by the courts.

I would also point out that European relationships with aboriginal groups were just as important economically (for all parties) as they were militarily.

again, using the logic "it could have been worse" doesn't legally wash. It's reasoning that would be laughed at if used seriously defending a breach of contract. The agreements penned with aboriginal groups in many cases are plain for us to see and in other instances can be inferred using the historic context and law of the land as it stood then. The "royal proclamation of 1763" is one such law that made most senttlement outside of upper Canada and western treaty zones expressly illegal prior to confederation - in contempt of an order from the king.



people have had their land expropriated with unfair compensation throughout our countries brief history so sometimes the rights of the many outweigh the legal rights of the few...It is now after 1 am here so getting too tired to argue but I hope I have made my position clear...the situation reminds me of the woman who is getting Salvador Dali exhumed to get a paternity test done.....she has had a circus form around her claim....

WRT expropriation; This weaves back into my original point. The body of law surrounding expropriation is getting more and more onerous for the Crown. Given that today's compensation settlements will likely reflect a combination of quantum legal thinking from the 1800's and current quantum obligations, it makes sense to get these land claims settled ASAP for the sake of all involved. If the Crown is to claim that all crown land in BC was an expropriation, it first must prove what the explicitly defined public benefit of doing that at the time was. Contract law (very old body of law), quite simply stipulates that for the validity of any contract, consideration by both parties must have been exchanged. So the crown's position will likely be that the benefits outlined in the "Indian act" shortly after confederation was the consideration exchanged for the use of the common law land title held by BC FN. Again, give that racist piece of legislation a read and try to predict what a modern court will make of that supposition.

some on here want to deny the benefits ascribed in the Indian act, and ignore aborinal title. I'm afraid it doesn't work that way, it's not going to ever work that way, and it's in all our interests to come up with a more reasonable position if "working together as Canadians" is truly what we want.

enjoy you trip to the homeland WOT! (My homeland)

[wideopenthrottle]

Cheers...I see we agree more than we disagree....I think our way forward is to settle treaty disputes asap as it is the lawyers who are the parasites feeding off the continuation of dispute...natives also need to accept that they are not deserving of special status but rather they are deserving of compensation for the failure of our govt to deliver on promises made that are no longer of any benefit to our society as a whole....."sorry, my bad" is not going to cut it I know but giving special status to any group is a bad idea and fosters animosity....."all animals are equal..........except some animals are more equal than others" comes to mind.....orwell was a smart cookie

[Pemby_mess]

Cheers...I see we agree more than we disagree....I think our way forward is to settle treaty disputes asap as it is the lawyers who are the parasites feeding off the continuation of dispute



absolutely! The fate of the province/county can't be left in the hands of lawyers, including the ones in government. That's why it's so important that we all learn what it is we are talking about when it comes to these issues. I recognize some of my personal opinions may come off as extreme to some, but the unfettered BS that flies when these threads come up is incredible, Especially for a group of direct resource users who have an acutely vested interest in the negotiations that we both agree our government needs to engage.

everytime someone hits a blockade- that is a cost incurred for your government dragging its feet on this. Likewise with everytime a project gets delayed or all the court's resources that these disputes suck out of the system. What happens when the very tactful Chinese see this discord and leverage it to their advantage?

blaming the natives? Your focused on the wrong people.

pS: apologies to the lawyers on here, forgive my legal ignorance, and feel free to correct me where I'm way off base:p. I will promptly take my place in the peanut gallery in exchange for your more educated dialogue




All animals are equal..........except some animals are more equal than others" comes to mind.....orwell was a smart cookie

Yep, good quote, but we all probably feel that way sometimes.

[Pemby_mess]

There is a road I've been down and hunting on before now there is a sign up that says now entering(band names) traditional territory. Are you aloud to hunt or not? (Non native)


I thought I'd address the OP's original question:

like others have mentioned signs posted as "traditional territory" don't indicate that you are trespassing in any way or that your right to lawfully use crown land is extinguished in any fashion.

Thats the the simple version, but there are complexities that might be interesting to all of us:

They do indicate the approximate boundaries where status FN are legally entitled to use their status rights. Those rights do not include excluding you from the crown land in question.

they also may indicate an area under a land claim. That means there is a FN group looking to exert control over the land and therefore satisfy one of the requirements of their title being recognized. This is where it gets messy with the blockades and such. The FN blockades aren't exactly legal Per se. But in order for the court to recognize their claim over the territory, they must be seen as exercising control over the land in some fashion. Even just an attempt to restrict access is important legally.

Our law doesn't yet capture this situation, which is why it's important for the province in particular to create some more certainty around the issue. That requires better dialogue with both BC First Nations, and the rest of us. For those interested, the Tsil'cotin decision explains the latest legal clarification with respect to these issues much better than I:

https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/14246/index.do

[Bugle M In]

I thought I'd address the OP's original question:

like others have mentioned signs posted as "traditional territory" don't indicate that you are trespassing in any way or that your right to lawfully use crown land is extinguished in any fashion.

Thats the the simple version, but there are complexities that might be interesting to all of us:

They do indicate the approximate boundaries where status FN are legally entitled to use their status rights. Those rights do not include excluding you from the crown land in question.

they also may indicate an area under a land claim. That means there is a FN group looking to exert control over the land and therefore satisfy one of the requirements of their title being recognized. This is where it gets messy with the blockades and such. The FN blockades aren't exactly legal Per se. But in order for the court to recognize their claim over the territory, they must be seen as exercising control over the land in some fashion. Even just an attempt to restrict access is important legally.

Our law doesn't yet capture this situation, which is why it's important for the province in particular to create some more certainty around the issue. That requires better dialogue with both BC First Nations, and the rest of us. For those interested, the Tsil'cotin decision explains the latest legal clarification with respect to these issues much better than I:

https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/14246/index.do

So...what happens if the rest of us BC'er's (non FN) start "Exercising" our rights "over control" to the territory....get my drift!!??

[Pemby_mess]

So...what happens if the rest of us BC'er's (non FN) start "Exercising" our rights "over control" to the territory....get my drift!!??

Yeah, I think I get your drift. I'd ask a lawyer.

however, I think you'll find your attempt to exercise what you think your rights are, may result in you becoming a victim of your own ignorance. That would most likely apply to FN equally.

The good news is you now know what the purpose behind the blockades and FN rhetoric is. Therefore you also know what level of resolve they will likely resort to in keeping you out. Chances are if you're polite, respectful, and tactfully keep your mouth shut, they shouldn't present much problems to us looking to hunt and fish in traditional territories.

if you're determined to establish your own rights over crown land, I think you can actually begin that process tomorrow if you like. Again, you'd probably want to ask a lawyer about how best to go about it. It could be as simple as finding a piece of land not already spoken for by someone other than the Crown, build a cabin on it, put up no trespassing signs and fence, start raising some livestock and don't get evicted for a while. Then make a case for title based on your historical use.

or

just apply for some form of tenure, and feel free to exercise your rights over it all you like in the same way the FN seem to think they're doing. IDK - stuffs complicated, but I do know non FN have lots of opportunity to exercise full control over their private land, and for that I'm grateful.

[Bugle M In]

It should be obvious that most people, like myself have been patient.
But, that cup of patience has run out.
If the tone of some on here isn't apparent (that their patience has also run out), I can't help you.
Yup....block roads.....but sooner or later......it isn't going to go the way they think they want it to go.
There are a lot....and I mean a lot....of people who are sick and tired of it.
The sympathy that I once had for FN is long gone now.
Don't get me wrong, if someone shows me respect, I show them respect...and as well, I always start with respect etc.
But just because I was brought up that way, and believe it is the "civil" way to be.....don't think that it makes me a
"pushover".
Oh...and I am not just talking about the hunting community being fed up.....there are lots of residents that are now
fed up...
Lots of people struggling to make ends meet these days....and a lot tired of "handing out money".
Yes...resource companies etc are making back room deals to get what they want...and they don't care about the average
joe....personally...they don't really care about the FN either.(its just business to them).
Like others....this thread has led me to run out of further patience as well....you can have the last word.
Have good hunting season...
In the end....paper won't mean much....just something to use for "ass wipe"....

[Thor762]

I don`t have white guilt. I`m not a Catholic priest. I don`t even have Catholic guilt. Not a Dogan. I have no guilt whatsoever. Never screwed anybody over, never stole land (or anything else) never picked on the little guys at school. I AM sick of every whining Indian, LGBTQ( not sure what all the letters stand for) and every body else who wants special considerations because...actually don`t know why. I don`t get special breaks, a straight white 5 gen Canadian. I`m lucky if I get a small tax return check once a year. If I fall down nobody rushes to save my white ass with programs and support.
Paint a rainbow crosswalk on my street, dare you. Try to repo my hard earned paid for property because your ancestor pooped there a million years ago.. Yeah, luck with that. If I dig up strange bones while gardening...they go in my collection of cool shit. Bad enough our tax dollars go to a killer terrorist ,be damned if I have to like it or any other stupid snowflake shit that`s flying around these days. But, be as sensitive as you want, just don`t come to my house and expect a cold drink. I am SICK of this touchy feely shit.

I like this man. I don't know who you are, but I like the cut of your jib, and we would probably get along.

[Xenomorph]

I like this man. I don't know who you are, but I like the cut of your jib, and we would probably get along.

Lots of people with good old fashioned common sense are beginning to sing the tune of "OK, this bullshit needs to stop!" ...calmly, patiently. We'll get there sooner or later - I for one am sick and tired of the status quo, I'd rather we clarify the gray area. And yes, I'm one that will forever regret voting for JT. That's a mistake I am taking responsibility on. Still in disbelief he dismantled Harper's legislation on citizenship ..and now we're footing the bill.

[Bugle M In]

Lots of people with good old fashioned common sense are beginning to sing the tune of "OK, this bullshit needs to stop!" ...calmly, patiently. We'll get there sooner or later - I for one am sick and tired of the status quo, I'd rather we clarify the gray area. And yes, I'm one that will forever regret voting for JT. That's a mistake I am taking responsibility on. Still in disbelief he dismantled Harper's legislation on citizenship ..and now we're footing the bill.
You must be too young to remember PT (the father)....if you had known him.....you never would have made that
mistake (voting JT)....live and learn....but now you've got it.

[Surrey Boy]

Commendation to Xenomorph for firstly admitting he voted Liberal, and secondly for facing his mistake. Good confession.

The hardest step is Denial, once you deal with that, recovery is much easier.

[Steeleco]

For those who think us mods are doing a "shitty job" you have 2 choices. Step up and help mod, or shut up and go away. Most ALL contributing members know there is a "report a post" button in the bottom left corner. USE IT, we too have lives and cannot police every post to your satisfaction. I've not seen ONE report on this thread, normally with native affairs, we have at least one by the tenth post. Seems pretty good to me so far!

[Surrey Boy]

OK, ive read my fill of the stereo type bullshit....for those of you who dont know...I Corb89 Corben Clarkson am a status indian..the indian side of my family is from the west moberly reserve THE largest treaty territory in canada.
go on with your "liquor store" jokes...we're not all the same...i buy my hunting/fishing licences same as you....i follow provincial regulations better than alot of you racist assholes
im ashamed to be on this site with you whining ****s...im out! **** all of you

Do you pay income tax the same as us?

[Xenomorph]

You must be too young to remember PT (the father)....if you had known him.....you never would have made that
mistake (voting JT)....live and learn....but now you've got it.

I've only moved to Canada in 2006: pretty face, knockout legs and a mind to die for. It's not my fault for being Canadian, it's hers, she brought me here. :oops:


Commendation to Xenomorph for firstly admitting he voted Liberal, and secondly for facing his mistake. Good confession.

The hardest step is Denial, once you deal with that, recovery is much easier.

I'd like to think anyone here is able to weigh, judge and admit to shortcomings, I'm getting too old and grumpy too have time for BS, ignorance and hypocrisy.


For those who think us mods are doing a "shitty job" you have 2 choices. Step up and help mod, or shut up and go away. Most ALL contributing members know there is a "report a post" button in the bottom left corner. USE IT, we too have lives and cannot police every post to your satisfaction. I've not seen ONE report on this thread, normally with native affairs, we have at least one by the tenth post. Seems pretty good to me so far!

I found the discussion on both ends full of substance. A lot of good points being made on both sides, with some legal "features" revealed that I am sure some of us -most of us- might not have been aware of. Besides a poor attempt to shut down this on a "racist" grounds, I found the whole thread mature and at least a good beginning. We're talking, brainstorming about possible ways to end the status quo and move to an understanding mutually beneficial. I'd call that progress.

[HappyJack]

Kind of an exercise in futility because nothing we think or say on the subject will ever be taken into account by anyone with authority. Even the conservatives had no backbone to take this head on, it will be like this or worse for another 100 years.

[fearless]

Do you pay income tax the same as us?
You're only tax exempt if you work on a reserve...not many jobs on the reserve...I'm status also and I bet I pay more taxes then most of the assholes that make asshole comments on here....

[Dannybuoy]

You're only tax exempt if you work on a reserve...not many jobs on the reserve...I'm status also and I bet I pay more taxes then most of the assholes that make asshole comments on here....
Well you are partially correct .... living on the reserve ( or having an address ) also makes purchases , truck, car, quad etc tax free also .Kinda makes you the ass hole for chiming in with a 1/2 truth eh ?

[Surrey Boy]

Well you are partially correct .... living on the reserve ( or having an address ) also makes purchases , truck, car, quad etc tax free also .Kinda makes you the ass hole for chiming in with a 1/2 truth eh ?

I was going to say.

Thanks.

[Surrey Boy]

It really attests to the invalidity of the oppression claims that their victimization stands on lies.

It reveals their character to see how readily they lie.

I don't prejudice race, but I do judge character and discriminate on actions. Shame . . .

[HarryToolips]

OK, ive read my fill of the stereo type bullshit....for those of you who dont know...I Corb89 Corben Clarkson am a status indian..the indian side of my family is from the west moberly reserve THE largest treaty territory in canada.
go on with your "liquor store" jokes...we're not all the same...i buy my hunting/fishing licences same as you....i follow provincial regulations better than alot of you racist assholes
im ashamed to be on this site with you whining ****s...im out! **** all of you
You have to remember we're all human, we have our character faults etc just like everyone, and I personally am sorry if I offended you...but please understand that many of us on this site are very bitter about how some FN's people will go out and shoot any game year round, with no limit instead of promoting conservation like yourself and many other hunters do...I know it's our government that is enabling them, but it still doesn't make it right...problem is, our government doesn't have the strength or courage to stop them from doing this, so I don't see any other way except to educate them, and hopefully guilt them...I have met several First Nations members who only hunt ethically like yourself, and I commend you for that, hopefully with our increased wildlife funding were supposed to get, we can get more First Nations education, and First Nations hunters like yourself would be good examples to them of how all hunters should be..

[338win mag]

Do you pay income tax the same as us?

Dannybuoy
This was the question asked....Not, do you pay sales tax?, Fearless is correct in his reply to the specific question at hand.

[Dannybuoy]

Dannybuoy
This was the question asked....Not, do you pay sales tax?, Fearless is correct in his reply to the specific question at hand.
Darn , I have to watch those technicalities....��

[papaken]

Do you pay income tax the same as us?
According to the government rules every First Nations person I know pays the same exorbitant income tax you do when working off reserve. There are not a lot of jobs or businesses on reserve so most working natives do pay the same as us. Two daughters and at least 5 of the grandkids in our family work for off reserve companies and pay the same rents, mortgages and taxes everyone else does. I have seen companies come on to reserves and use the no taxes to justify paying natives less than they pay their non-native employees even though they are doing the same work. Had one women tell me it wasn't fair that natives get free gas, free education, and free houses. My wife wants to know where she can get free gas never seen that in her life and a free house, she's 67 and paid a mortgage for our house for 30 yrs. Yes they did pay for part of her education but not enough to live on without my income. Also now that the house is paid for we can't get a second mortgage or sell it to anyone but another band member. How would you like it if you were told you can only sell your house to a cousin living the same neighbourhood who would have a really tough time getting a mortgage. Before you criticize maybe you should spend some time reading and learning the facts about First Nations in BC.

[HappyJack]

Darn , I have to watch those technicalities....��

Saying sorry wouldn't hurt, just sayin.

[Piperdown]

Food for thought! An interesting perspective.

This was printed in a Nanaimo, B.C. newspaper last week, and as you can imagine, it had all the natives out banging their drums and whooping, but you know what.. if the shoe fits!!! .

THE SO-CALLED "FIRST NATIONS" ....

-Never "discovered" the wheel
-Never had a written language
-Never discovered astronomy
-Had no science or scientific discoveries
-Had no mathematics
-Made no medical discoveries
-Never had written music
-Only "figured out" a drum and a rattle for musical instruments
-Had no metallurgy
-Had no sails for boats (only had canoes and dugout trees for their
thousands of years)
-Created virtually no mechanical devices
-Possessed almost nothing that required labour over a period of time, ie:
building with or carving out of stone
-Made almost no inventions
-Are just in the last 200 years getting caught up to most of the rest of the world
-Have a history that is notable only for underachievement

Think where an equal number of Chinese would be today; given only 10 years of the advantages Canadian Indians have---no taxes on any money you earn, while living on a reserve-free dental-free university, etc. BTW the hunger striking chief and her husband, were paid $270,000.00 by the band last year. Comments from a reader in the Globe and Mail. It's a short history lesson on natives...

This land does NOT belong to them!

Why do some people keep saying that it does? Is it because that's what they
want you to believe?

Well then the marketing campaign must be working.

Let's get this straight.

1. These people's ancestors did not just appear in North America, magically out of thin air one day 50,000 year ago. They came in waves across the land/ice bridge from Asia. What's more, these waves, in many cases, were not related groups of people. They came from various places around North Eastern Asia and were from different genetic strains..in other words the "natives of North America" are not a homogenous group of people and more importantly...They are immigrants too. like millions of immigrants today.

2. The idea that the "natives" were peaceful caretakers of the land or benevolent tenants couldn't be further from the truth. The various tribes warred on each other constantly. They were violent. Want proof? Ask the Hurons or the Neutrals...oh that's right you can't. The Iroquios wiped them out.

How about slavery that was rife amoung the first nation tribes until the Europeans came over and freed the slaves and put an end to this "valued cultural tradition". Is slavery peaceful and humane?.

3. The idea that we "stole" this land from them is also ridiculous. A more
technologically advanced and numerous cultures invaded and conquered. This is
exactly what has been happening since the dawn of humanity all around the globe. To say we "stole" their lands is just plain wrong. That is akin to saying the Saxons should return England to the Anglos. Or maybe we should launch a campaign to have the Roman descendants give Italy back to the Etruscans. It is a nonsensical notion driven by the politically correct bleeding hearts, some intellectually deficient politicians, the Government, and it will continue to cost this country needless and wasted billions and
billions until we get some backbone and turn off the taps.

Are these people in trouble? Yes. Do they need help? Yes.

Are they responsible enough to look after themselves and efficiently spend
the billions the tax payers give them? Certainly not.

The only way to fix this situation is to bring them into society as equals.

They should be getting jobs and paying taxes like the rest of us because in reality, they are no more special than any of the other hundred or more cultures that call Canada home.

Turn off the taps. Do away with this "traditional use" and "cultural" nonsense. Educate their children to become modern citizens ,instead of finding their identity and source of pride in some folks who occupied the land 12000 years ago. Let them stand or fall on their own account. Just like the rest of us have to do!

[338win mag]

Alot of what is written in the article is true, and it could be applied to a number of differing peoples of the world, including white.
Although some of it is not,
Indians do pay income taxes.
Indians did indeed have away of navigating the continent by way of the stars.
What did they need a sailboat for? a canoe is all they needed for navigating much of the continent and is still useful and could be used today.
Had a strong knowledge of medicinal plants that are being recognized today for there medicinal properties.
Half the stuff listed they had (have) no need for.
Sadly, I would not normally respond to something of this nature, however the article is just to stupid to let go, and I'm sure every Native on the forum just got put in their place by a superior species.

[Dannybuoy]

Alot of what is written in the article is true, and it could be applied to a number of differing peoples of the world, including white.
Although some of it is not,
Indians do pay income taxes.
Indians did indeed have away of navigating the continent by way of the stars.
What did they need a sailboat for? a canoe is all they needed for navigating much of the continent and is still useful and could be used today.
Had a strong knowledge of medicinal plants that are being recognized today for there medicinal properties.
Half the stuff listed they had (have) no need for.
Sadly, I would not normally respond to something of this nature, however the article is just to stupid to let go, and I'm sure every Native on the forum just got put in their place by a superior species.
Alot of what your post says is also subject to interpretation.... ie while some do pay income tax , sales tax is excempt if they choose .
Strong knowledge of medicine ... ha ha too funny !
I looked up the life expectancy of a native prior to European contact .... they should be paying us .... and thats including any diseases brought over that we hear whining about.
I despise using the terms "us" and "them" but that's what society seems to demand . Segregation seems to be the in thing eh ?

[Piperdown]

Alot of what is written in the article is true, and it could be applied to a number of differing peoples of the world, including white.
Although some of it is not,
Indians do pay income taxes.
Indians did indeed have away of navigating the continent by way of the stars.
What did they need a sailboat for? a canoe is all they needed for navigating much of the continent and is still useful and could be used today.
Had a strong knowledge of medicinal plants that are being recognized today for there medicinal properties.
Half the stuff listed they had (have) no need for.
Sadly, I would not normally respond to something of this nature, however the article is just to stupid to let go, and I'm sure every Native on the forum just got put in their place by a superior species.

Was just posting an article that is stating some facts, as for the sail on a boat, why would anyone want to paddle their asses off if you could use the power of the wind!!!! It is called using ones brain.

[klondikemike]

So piper down who did invent the wheel. My guess is it was the neandrethal . I guess you never saw a totem pole or maybe thought they just appeared. They used oral tradition and paintings as a means to communicate with the next generations. Its all in the way someone looks at it.Im pretty sure their lifestyle revolved around mother nature and what she provided for them. I would think they never thought of changing the environment but live alongside it. And in so doing kept it much as it was. What do you think was wrong with that?

[Piperdown]

So piper down who did invent the wheel. My guess is it was the neandrethal . I guess you never saw a totem pole or maybe thought they just appeared. They used oral tradition and paintings as a means to communicate with the next generations. Its all in the way someone looks at it.Im pretty sure their lifestyle revolved around mother nature and what she provided for them. I would think they never thought of changing the environment but live alongside it. And in so doing kept it much as it was. What do you think was wrong with that?

So adapting and using say woven cedar sails to make your life more efficient, evolving is wrong, and destroying the earth in the process by doing so, me thinks not. A totem pole, i am having trouble following your logic, enlighten me. What is wrong with progressing, hell they are doing quite well with fishing nets, motorized fishing vessels etc, all the things that are not to environmentally friendly, seems they are as white as you and I now with the technologies that they have come to use and love. Maybe explain about the slavery, the killing of weaker tribes, do the stronger tribes now give back to those that they raped and pillaged, well the tribes that they didn't wipe out i should say. No different then other wars so why do they get everything given back, they way i see it is they are a conquered nation, some win some loose. Oh and by the way if you read my original post I DID NOT WRITE IT, just posted for all to read!!! Kind of reminds me of Jimmy the Greek, sports announcer for the NFL, was stating a fact about blacks and the breeding in the slavery days, to make a bigger and stronger slave, he got fired. The next week an article in a scientific paper comes out stating the same thing and everyone agrees with it, kind of a double standard.

[wideopenthrottle]

...................."......

[klondikemike]

No i never said or thought that you wrote it. I saw that same article about 4 years ago. That person that posted it said basically the same thing as you said when i called him on it. He never answered the questions I asked either. I don't think using other peoples ideas makes you any less your own culture and for sure does not make them any more white. Im wondering if thats why you feel its ok to try talk down to them? Im sure the majority feel your not worth the effort.

[IslandWanderer]

Some say that agriculture was humankind's greatest mistake. It's the original 'progress'.

http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html

[Pemby_mess]

^^ I think Jared Diamond is one of the most significant thinkers of our time when it comes to cultural origin. Prior to agriculture becoming important, Europeans had no problems with the indigenous in Canada as a race. Both cultures took their share of the burdens and benefits of cooperating for survival and advancement in north anerica. It was agriculture that ultimately wrought most of the adversarial cultural tensions.

[Surrey Boy]

Food for thought! An interesting perspective.

This was printed in a Nanaimo, B.C. newspaper last week, and as you can imagine, it had all the natives out banging their drums and whooping, but you know what.. if the shoe fits!!! .

THE SO-CALLED "FIRST NATIONS" ....

-Never "discovered" the wheel
-Never had a written language
-Never discovered astronomy
-Had no science or scientific discoveries
-Had no mathematics
-Made no medical discoveries
-Never had written music
-Only "figured out" a drum and a rattle for musical instruments
-Had no metallurgy
-Had no sails for boats (only had canoes and dugout trees for their
thousands of years)
-Created virtually no mechanical devices
-Possessed almost nothing that required labour over a period of time, ie:
building with or carving out of stone
-Made almost no inventions
-Are just in the last 200 years getting caught up to most of the rest of the world
-Have a history that is notable only for underachievement

Think where an equal number of Chinese would be today; given only 10 years of the advantages Canadian Indians have---no taxes on any money you earn, while living on a reserve-free dental-free university, etc. BTW the hunger striking chief and her husband, were paid $270,000.00 by the band last year. Comments from a reader in the Globe and Mail. It's a short history lesson on natives...

This land does NOT belong to them!

Why do some people keep saying that it does? Is it because that's what they
want you to believe?

Well then the marketing campaign must be working.

Let's get this straight.

1. These people's ancestors did not just appear in North America, magically out of thin air one day 50,000 year ago. They came in waves across the land/ice bridge from Asia. What's more, these waves, in many cases, were not related groups of people. They came from various places around North Eastern Asia and were from different genetic strains..in other words the "natives of North America" are not a homogenous group of people and more importantly...They are immigrants too. like millions of immigrants today.

2. The idea that the "natives" were peaceful caretakers of the land or benevolent tenants couldn't be further from the truth. The various tribes warred on each other constantly. They were violent. Want proof? Ask the Hurons or the Neutrals...oh that's right you can't. The Iroquios wiped them out.

How about slavery that was rife amoung the first nation tribes until the Europeans came over and freed the slaves and put an end to this "valued cultural tradition". Is slavery peaceful and humane?.

3. The idea that we "stole" this land from them is also ridiculous. A more
technologically advanced and numerous cultures invaded and conquered. This is
exactly what has been happening since the dawn of humanity all around the globe. To say we "stole" their lands is just plain wrong. That is akin to saying the Saxons should return England to the Anglos. Or maybe we should launch a campaign to have the Roman descendants give Italy back to the Etruscans. It is a nonsensical notion driven by the politically correct bleeding hearts, some intellectually deficient politicians, the Government, and it will continue to cost this country needless and wasted billions and
billions until we get some backbone and turn off the taps.

Are these people in trouble? Yes. Do they need help? Yes.

Are they responsible enough to look after themselves and efficiently spend
the billions the tax payers give them? Certainly not.

The only way to fix this situation is to bring them into society as equals.

They should be getting jobs and paying taxes like the rest of us because in reality, they are no more special than any of the other hundred or more cultures that call Canada home.

Turn off the taps. Do away with this "traditional use" and "cultural" nonsense. Educate their children to become modern citizens ,instead of finding their identity and source of pride in some folks who occupied the land 12000 years ago. Let them stand or fall on their own account. Just like the rest of us have to do!

Look at all that Cultural Appropriation!

[bloody bellies]

fresh sockeye for sale at the roadside stand just before Agassiz bridge, yup natives selling fish while we stand back and watch the river flow.

[HarryToolips]

^^^^^arent they only supposed to use it for their own consumption??? If so, phone RAPP please..I have in the past over the same thing..

[HarryToolips]

Food for thought! An interesting perspective.

This was printed in a Nanaimo, B.C. newspaper last week, and as you can imagine, it had all the natives out banging their drums and whooping, but you know what.. if the shoe fits!!! .

THE SO-CALLED "FIRST NATIONS" ....

-Never "discovered" the wheel
-Never had a written language
-Never discovered astronomy
-Had no science or scientific discoveries
-Had no mathematics
-Made no medical discoveries
-Never had written music
-Only "figured out" a drum and a rattle for musical instruments
-Had no metallurgy
-Had no sails for boats (only had canoes and dugout trees for their
thousands of years)
-Created virtually no mechanical devices
-Possessed almost nothing that required labour over a period of time, ie:
building with or carving out of stone
-Made almost no inventions
-Are just in the last 200 years getting caught up to most of the rest of the world
-Have a history that is notable only for underachievement

Think where an equal number of Chinese would be today; given only 10 years of the advantages Canadian Indians have---no taxes on any money you earn, while living on a reserve-free dental-free university, etc. BTW the hunger striking chief and her husband, were paid $270,000.00 by the band last year. Comments from a reader in the Globe and Mail. It's a short history lesson on natives...

This land does NOT belong to them!

Why do some people keep saying that it does? Is it because that's what they
want you to believe?

Well then the marketing campaign must be working.

Let's get this straight.

1. These people's ancestors did not just appear in North America, magically out of thin air one day 50,000 year ago. They came in waves across the land/ice bridge from Asia. What's more, these waves, in many cases, were not related groups of people. They came from various places around North Eastern Asia and were from different genetic strains..in other words the "natives of North America" are not a homogenous group of people and more importantly...They are immigrants too. like millions of immigrants today.

2. The idea that the "natives" were peaceful caretakers of the land or benevolent tenants couldn't be further from the truth. The various tribes warred on each other constantly. They were violent. Want proof? Ask the Hurons or the Neutrals...oh that's right you can't. The Iroquios wiped them out.

How about slavery that was rife amoung the first nation tribes until the Europeans came over and freed the slaves and put an end to this "valued cultural tradition". Is slavery peaceful and humane?.

3. The idea that we "stole" this land from them is also ridiculous. A more
technologically advanced and numerous cultures invaded and conquered. This is
exactly what has been happening since the dawn of humanity all around the globe. To say we "stole" their lands is just plain wrong. That is akin to saying the Saxons should return England to the Anglos. Or maybe we should launch a campaign to have the Roman descendants give Italy back to the Etruscans. It is a nonsensical notion driven by the politically correct bleeding hearts, some intellectually deficient politicians, the Government, and it will continue to cost this country needless and wasted billions and
billions until we get some backbone and turn off the taps.

Are these people in trouble? Yes. Do they need help? Yes.

Are they responsible enough to look after themselves and efficiently spend
the billions the tax payers give them? Certainly not.

The only way to fix this situation is to bring them into society as equals.

They should be getting jobs and paying taxes like the rest of us because in reality, they are no more special than any of the other hundred or more cultures that call Canada home.

Turn off the taps. Do away with this "traditional use" and "cultural" nonsense. Educate their children to become modern citizens ,instead of finding their identity and source of pride in some folks who occupied the land 12000 years ago. Let them stand or fall on their own account. Just like the rest of us have to do!
I agree with the turn off the taps perspective, as we should all be equals in this country....I disagree with the insinuations that they weren't necessarily creative, as previously said, they didn't need many of those things, and were very knowledgeable in their natural world, and with edible and medicinal plants..

[HappyJack]

Alot of what is written in the article is true, and it could be applied to a number of differing peoples of the world, including white.
Although some of it is not,
Indians do pay income taxes.
Indians did indeed have away of navigating the continent by way of the stars.
What did they need a sailboat for? a canoe is all they needed for navigating much of the continent and is still useful and could be used today.
Had a strong knowledge of medicinal plants that are being recognized today for there medicinal properties.
Half the stuff listed they had (have) no need for.
Sadly, I would not normally respond to something of this nature, however the article is just to stupid to let go, and I'm sure every Native on the forum just got put in their place by a superior species.

Wow, it's about as disingenuous as you can get, but not unexpected from some high huggy mugs.

[hawk-i]

^^^^^arent they only supposed to use it for their own consumption??? If so, phone RAPP please..I have in the past over the same thing..

Nope, they have the right to sell it!

[Pemby_mess]

fresh sockeye for sale at the roadside stand just before Agassiz bridge, yup natives selling fish while we stand back and watch the river flow.

Again, your frustration is directed at the wrong people. If they're indeed selling fish in contravention of their right to do so, you should contact DFO. However we have a bunch of fish farms off the coast that really benefit no-one in our country. The evidence suggests those activities are what is doing irreparable harm to our once thriving fishery. Alaska, with no fish farms, is receiving record sockeye returns this year - Both the traditional food and commercial fisheries are in great shape. Even blaming the secretive, private , foreign corps responsible for the fish farms, while more accurate than blaming the natives, is still incomplete and poorly targeted. Blame the politicians, bureaucrats and other law makers that allow something so economically and biologically reductionist to continue.

FN and sportsman and commercial fishers all have a common enemy in this regard. Time would not be wasted in venting your frustration to those that set the ground rules; ie not the FN.

Last year their food fishery on the Fraser was shut down completely. That fishery has precedence over ours, so that spells disaster for the rest of the salmon fishery. It would be equivalent to a senior water right being shutdown. The only reasonable conclusion from that is emergency measures in time of drought. So it is with BC's fishery, sadly.


^^^^^arent they only supposed to use it for their own consumption??? If so, phone RAPP please..I have in the past over the same thing..


Yes, if people are selling fish commercially without a licence, RAPP and the DFO should be called in. All of us depend on the resource and people acting in contravention of the management plan affects us all, whomever the offenders may be. But there is a FN food fishery, FN commercial fishery, and FN ceremonial fishery. Indians selling fish does not equal illegality btw. Before one goes accusing someone of criminality because of what they presume about their race, one should ensure that they are dealing with the correct set of facts.

Like all other communities, some FN seem to be incredibly conscientious WRT the laws that govern them, while others look to cut corners and bend the rules, and others yet, seem intent on flouting said rules. Its obviously preferable, that we engage, and work with the first group and ensure that the rules are adequately enforced with the following, just like in every other segment of society.


Nope, they have the right to sell it!

Perhaps.

[Boner]

Nope, they have the right to sell it!

The Sto:Lo indeed can do it. But they are only allowed to fish during posted times. Anyone with nets out during a closed time are poaching.

[edgar11]

Again, your frustration is directed at the wrong people. If they're indeed selling fish in contravention of their right to do so, you should contact DFO. However we have a bunch of fish farms off the coast that really benefit no-one in our country. The evidence suggests those activities are what is doing irreparable harm to our once thriving fishery. Alaska, with no fish farms, is receiving record sockeye returns this year - Both the traditional food and commercial fisheries are in great shape. Even blaming the secretive, private , foreign corps responsible for the fish farms, while more accurate than blaming the natives, is still incomplete and poorly targeted. Blame the politicians, bureaucrats and other law makers that allow something so economically and biologically reductionist to continue.

FN and sportsman and commercial fishers all have a common enemy in this regard. Time would not be wasted in venting your frustration to those that set the ground rules; ie not the FN.

Last year their food fishery on the Fraser was shut down completely. That fishery has precedence over ours, so that spells disaster for the rest of the salmon fishery. It would be equivalent to a senior water right being shutdown. The only reasonable conclusion from that is emergency measures in time of drought. So it is with BC's fishery, sadly.



Yes, if people are selling fish commercially without a licence, RAPP and the DFO should be called in. All of us depend on the resource and people acting in contravention of the management plan affects us all, whomever the offenders may be. But there is a FN food fishery, FN commercial fishery, and FN ceremonial fishery. Indians selling fish does not equal illegality btw. Before one goes accusing someone of criminality because of what they presume about their race, one should ensure that they are dealing with the correct set of facts.

Like all other communities, some FN seem to be incredibly conscientious WRT the laws that govern them, while others look to cut corners and bend the rules, and others yet, seem intent on flouting said rules. Its obviously preferable, that we engage, and work with the first group and ensure that the rules are adequately enforced with the following, just like in every other segment of society.



Perhaps.

It is very nice to see someone with a well educated mind able to discuss this very debatable topic in a very logical, rational manner.
You have been successful I believe in getting some valuable information out there. Unfortunately, some choose not to believe it.

" Handouts" or money from the government, seems to be the big fallacy still. Probably because the government likes to publicize how much money they are spending in this regard. Yes they get some kind of welfare but so does anyone else who applies for it Native or not. Same with Healthcare. If you are on welfare you get healthcare for free. The only difference I guess is education where some students who qualify, get tuition and books paid for. I see the government double dipping so to speak by saying they are giving Natives funding when they would have given it to them regardless if they were Native or not. Pad their stats so to speak.
"Traditional". There is very little understanding of this word in this context. Traditional to native people has more to do of Spiritual aspects then physical descriptions. Similar to Kosher foods. Its how it dealt with and not the manner of or the mechanics of the act. For instance, when you take a deer's life, do you say a prayer when you take its life and do you thank it once its life has been taken? When you perform a ceremony do you utilize non-traditional foods such as beef and pork or do you utilize "traditional' foods such as Salmon and deer meat? The mechanics of taking the animal bow or rifle is less important as far as "traditional" goes.
The biggest misunderstanding, probably from Canada's first inception as well, is that Native people hold the same values and beliefs as other people. The problem has become clouded because not all Natives hold these values anymore. Through Residential School, and the other historical events that have happened over the years, they were lost. Natives valued Culture and Spiritual and Family over a big house a big car and a big bank account. Those who knew a lot about the culture and spirituality were deemed rich and giving was much more valuable then getting. Fortunately, because some Elders held on to some of these, it is being revitalized. Same with the Language and Culture.
The last thing that I would like to bring up is that most posters on here who post negative comments are thinking solely on what's in it for them. They have no thought or care about anyone or anything else. Putting themselves in others shoes would probably help them in this regard. Also having an open mind and an open heart would help as well.
This topic has to be dealt with and I am sure almost EVERY Native person would like to have it dealt with as well. I believe it all boils down to UNDOING what has been done and stop the façade of fixing it by dolling out money. Keep the money and assist the Native People by bringing back the Culture, Language and Spirituality which has been lost for many years. Once this is back in place, the divide which has been building, may for once decline as it gets stronger and stronger. I don't mean to try to make it sound so easy but it is a process which would take years and years to come to fruition.

[scoutlt1]

Last year their food fishery on the Fraser was shut down completely. That fishery has precedence over ours, so that spells disaster for the rest of the salmon fishery. It would be equivalent to a senior water right being shutdown. The only reasonable conclusion from that is emergency measures in time of drought. So it is with BC's fishery, sadly.


Wrong. "First Nations" people caught, consumed, and sold salmon from the Fraser River in 2016.

[bloody bellies]

Again, your frustration is directed at the wrong people. If they're indeed selling fish in contravention of their right to do so, you should contact DFO. However we have a bunch of fish farms off the coast that really benefit no-one in our country. The evidence suggests those activities are what is doing irreparable harm to our once thriving fishery. Alaska, with no fish farms, is receiving record sockeye returns this year - Both the traditional food and commercial fisheries are in great shape. Even blaming the secretive, private , foreign corps responsible for the fish farms, while more accurate than blaming the natives, is still incomplete and poorly targeted. Blame the politicians, bureaucrats and other law makers that allow something so economically and biologically reductionist to continue.

FN and sportsman and commercial fishers all have a common enemy in this regard. Time would not be wasted in venting your frustration to those that set the ground rules; ie not the FN.

Last year their food fishery on the Fraser was shut down completely. That fishery has precedence over ours, so that spells disaster for the rest of the salmon fishery. It would be equivalent to a senior water right being shutdown. The only reasonable conclusion from that is emergency measures in time of drought. So it is with BC's fishery, sadly.



Yes, if people are selling fish commercially without a licence, RAPP and the DFO should be called in. All of us depend on the resource and people acting in contravention of the management plan affects us all, whomever the offenders may be. But there is a FN food fishery, FN commercial fishery, and FN ceremonial fishery. Indians selling fish does not equal illegality btw. Before one goes accusing someone of criminality because of what they presume about their race, one should ensure that they are dealing with the correct set of facts.

Like all other communities, some FN seem to be incredibly conscientious WRT the laws that govern them, while others look to cut corners and bend the rules, and others yet, seem intent on flouting said rules. Its obviously preferable, that we engage, and work with the first group and ensure that the rules are adequately enforced with the following, just like in every other segment of society.



Perhaps.

Where in my quote do I blame FN?