Bullet choice 45-70 bear defense

[allan]

I bought bought myself a 45-70 to try something different then a slug gun, for a camp gun and a backup for grizzly bear and the like. I'm not reloading, I just want to buy something off the shelf that's hard hitting at close range. Less then 80yrds.
Does anyone have real world exp with bullet choice?
I'm currently shooting Hornady LEVERevolution 325gr ftx to get the feel of the gun but don't have an opinion on stopping power of such a cartridge yet.

[steel_ram]

I was disappointed with some jacketed bullets that were supposed to be designed for much hotter cartridges. They turned inside-out on deer sized game. The core separated from the jacket giving poor penetration, adequate but messy on deer but probably not on hasty oblique shots on dangerous game. Perhaps I got a bad batch? I would suggest hard cast bullets which don't expand much, but instead penetrate and take advantage of the already ample .458 calibre.

[untilthelastbeat]

Something to think about is the amount of energy being delivered to the animal. When I bought my 4570 I was told to shoot the hsm bear loads which consists of a 430 (I believe) grain hard cast lead bullet. People like these because they will penetrate anything. I tested them out on 12-16" rounds of wet pine and they would go in 45 cal and sail right through coming out about 46 cal. Now penetration is great but not when the bullet makes a pass through. Not on dangerous game. You want every ounce of energy expelled in the animal. The 325 jacketed bullet expands rapidly on impact and will sometimes fragment creating insane amounts of hydrostatic shock. This in most cases will destroy the animals central nervous system giving you that bang flop effect. The animal doesn't die on impact but when you deliver that hydrostatic shock and kill the centrally nervous system the bear gets knocked out and essentially bleeds out while it's knocked out and never wakes up. You can see the excessive wound channels from jacketed bullets when gutting. The fragments and hydrostatic shock can create wound channels 12 times the caliber size. You won't see that with a hard cast.
Anyways just my 2 cents. Something to think about

[mpotzold]

Eve uses the Leverevolution cartridges & I the 420 & 540 Garretts.
The 420 for general hunting & the 540 for grizzly protection. I went to Seattle area to buy the cartridges.
It's been proven many times that the 540 Garretts or equivalent load is hard to beat when faced with a grizzly charge. One shot will penetrate lengthwise through the bear with devastating damage.
Garrett sold his business to a Texas Co.
If I remember CampCook loads his own & he may be able to help you.
Also remember when using the 45/70 for bear protection an unscoped rifle is a better option.
http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo52/cariboo_2008/DSCN1202.jpg%7Eoriginal

[Tron]

No mammal can close a 1/2 inch wound channel. Go hard cast all the way. Wound channels kill, example and archery

[gmachine19]

HSM Bear loads from cabelas or buffalo bore from Wanstalls.

[REMINGTON JIM]

I used to Shoot a lot of 45-70 Gov and 450 Marlin with 250 gr to 540 gr bullets - The Big 535 and 540 cast bullets will pass lenght way thru a bear or just about any other animal - The 525 gr Bear Tooth Pile Driver at 1665 fps out of my 18.5" barreded guide gun being my favourite . Another fav is a 420 cast at 1980 fps out of the same gun. BUT here is a Nice bullet that has a LOT les recoil and it will HOLD together and penetrate like a big cast bullet - this may SURPRISE some of you 45-70 guys but i have shot them into some pretty hd FIR and they go a long ways in ! and HOLD nearly 100 % together ! You Ready ! its the

45-70 Government with the Hornady 250 GR MONOFLEX Bullet ! :-D
Cheers RJ

[allan]

I used to Shoot a lot of 45-70 Gov and 450 Marlin with 250 gr to 540 gr bullets - The Big 535 and 540 cast bullets will pass lenght way thru a bear or just about any other animal - The 525 gr Bear Tooth Pile Driver at 1665 fps out of my 18.5" barreded guide gun being my favourite . Another fav is a 420 cast at 1980 fps out of the same gun. BUT here is a Nice bullet that has a LOT les recoil and it will HOLD together and penetrate like a big cast bullet - this may SURPRISE some of you 45-70 guys but i have shot them into some pretty hd FIR and they go a long ways in ! and HOLD nearly 100 % together ! You Ready ! its the

45-70 Government with the Hornady 250 GR MONOFLEX Bullet ! :-D


Cheers RJ
How would you compare the hornady 250gr to the 325gr? I simply bought the 325gr cause it was the cheapest on the shelf? I found the 325gr easy to shoot so far.

[todbartell]

Avoid the 405gr Remington ammo, check out these radar velocity from a 18.5" Marlin :mrgreen:




Stats - Average
1038.79
fps















Stats - Highest
1091.71
fps















Stats - Lowest
1005.91
fps















Stats - Ext. Spread
85.8
fps















Stats - Std. Dev
33.64
fps


































Shot ID
V0
V50
V100
V150
V200
V250
Ke0
Ke50
Ke100
Ke150
Ke200
Ke250
PF50
Proj. Weight
Date
Time


1
1092
1058
0
0
0
0
1071
1005
0
0
0
0
428.49
405
5/11/17
20:30:30


2
1006
981
0
0
0
0
909
865
0
0
0
0
397.31
405
5/11/17
20:30:50


3
1018
992
0
0
0
0
931
884
0
0
0
0
401.76
405
5/11/17
20:31:45


4
1049
1020
0
0
0
0
990
935
0
0
0
0
413.1
405
5/11/17
20:32:07


5
1029
1001
0
0
0
0
951
900
0
0
0
0
405.41
405
5/11/17
20:32:30





I'd suggest tracking down some HSM Bear Load or Buffalo Bore hard cast +P ammo in the 400gr + range

[allan]

Avoid the 405gr Remington ammo, check out these radar velocity from a 18.5" Marlin :mrgreen:




Stats - Average
1038.79
fps















Stats - Highest
1091.71
fps















Stats - Lowest
1005.91
fps















Stats - Ext. Spread
85.8
fps















Stats - Std. Dev
33.64
fps


































Shot ID
V0
V50
V100
V150
V200
V250
Ke0
Ke50
Ke100
Ke150
Ke200
Ke250
PF50
Proj. Weight
Date
Time


1
1092
1058
0
0
0
0
1071
1005
0
0
0
0
428.49
405
5/11/17
20:30:30


2
1006
981
0
0
0
0
909
865
0
0
0
0
397.31
405
5/11/17
20:30:50


3
1018
992
0
0
0
0
931
884
0
0
0
0
401.76
405
5/11/17
20:31:45


4
1049
1020
0
0
0
0
990
935
0
0
0
0
413.1
405
5/11/17
20:32:07


5
1029
1001
0
0
0
0
951
900
0
0
0
0
405.41
405
5/11/17
20:32:30





I'd suggest tracking down some HSM Bear Load or Buffalo Bore hard cast +P ammo in the 400gr + range

Sorry I'm not going to pretend to know what the chart means, It appears to me that the velocity seems a bit slow and inconsistent?

[boxhitch]

Does anyone have real world exp with bullet choice? Only back in the days of Rem 405s and 22" barrels on an 1895 and a problem griz.
Now he wasn't a modern, slobbering, mouth-foaming, roaring, enraged zombie bear like everyone fears, but he died quick enough

[allan]

Only back in the days of Rem 405s and 22" barrels on an 1895 and a problem griz.
Now he wasn't a modern, slobbering, mouth-foaming, roaring, enraged zombie bear like everyone fears, but he died quick enough
ha! It apears that Tod Bartells modern research states that one should avoid rem 405's, but you have used with good success!? Apparently bears and bullets of modern times are changing... or the bullet research has become more scientific?
Thanks !

[REMINGTON JIM]

How would you compare the hornady 250gr to the 325gr? I simply bought the 325gr cause it was the cheapest on the shelf? I found the 325gr easy to shoot so far.

It WAY out penetraes the 325 FTX and holds together where the SOFT jacketed 325 peels a part - its just a cup and core bullet that 325 gr - CHEAP bullet - OK for LUNG shots etc That 250 gr MONO FLEX at 2000 fps + shoots pretty flat too ( LOL ) :biggrin: compared to the big Chunks !

Cheers Jim

[boxhitch]

Apparently bears and bullets of modern times are changingthe only things that have changed are marketing ploys and internet parroting

[lip_ripper00]

Give Sterling Cross Defense Systems a call and see what they have, they are in Abbotsford I believe.

[steel_ram]

Side to side lung shots are not bear defense. Close, hasty, high stress shots at centre of head on are. Penetration.

[allan]

Side to side lung shots are not bear defense. Close, hasty, high stress shots at centre of head on are. Penetration.
I suspect if I ever need to shoot it will be a close hasty head on shot. I want a bullet that will do maximum damage from a less then ideal shot placement.

[ElliotMoose]

I shoot the buffalo bore ammo out of my guide gun and have been thoroughly impressed. Do a search online. I ordered them from a gun store in Alberta

[boxhitch]

allan, you could build your own quality loads on the cheap with a Lee Loader Kit, easy to use with straight wall brass wholesalesports.com/store/Classic-Lee-Loader/p/210836
Then the bullet choices really go up, BB 405 gr ~$0.40 each
this guy does a good demo youtube.com/watch?v=rpV7Qg6zs-M

[allan]

allan, you could build your own quality loads on the cheap with a Lee Loader Kit, easy to use with straight wall brass wholesalesports.com/store/Classic-Lee-Loader/p/210836
Then the bullet choices really go up, BB 405 gr ~$0.40 each
this guy does a good demo youtube.com/watch?v=rpV7Qg6zs-M
I'm only gonna use this gun for self defense, or security when packing out or processing an animal and a camp gun when in the bush. I just need a hard hitting bullet choice that I can trust to take of things if it starts to go sideways. I've had things go sideways once before while hunting on my own. I don't want to have it happen twice.
I have too many other things keeping me busy most days that I don't want to learn to build bullets. I already build my own arrows and that's enough for me :)

[boxhitch]

Noted
then HSM's from Cabelas.ca would be easiest.

Cancel that. Bullet Barn has some loaded 390 gr'ers, that may be hot enough for the task

[BgBlkDg]

I built two custom lever bear defence rifles 20+years ago, a Marlin 336-1895, straight grip and a Miroku-Win. 1886, both with ghost and post sights and other mods.

I handloaded for these and tried Alaska Bullet Works 405 Kodiak bonded bullets, Swift A-Frames and BB-405s. I used H-322, H-4198 and AA-2230, loaded warm and chrono'd some impressive MVs.

I am used to shooting .338WM, 9.3 and .375H&H rifles, but, found that I could never shoot these lever guns or any of my others from field positions as well as I could my bolt rifles. So, when I began to sell off my guns in 2011, these were the first to go.

The issue is that with "bear loads" these lever rifles KICK HARD and unless you can/do shoot them a LOT, it is hard to shoot them FAST and WELL.....as in an encounter with a Grizzly intent on munching your carcass.

So, all romantic notions aside, from rather extensive experience, I would tend to forgo the .45-70 and get a good, light .30-06 or .308Win. for a "camp gun" which is MUCH easier to shoot well and practice. My reason is that IF you do NOT handload, the cost of practice ammo for the .45-70 will preclude your practicing as much as is needed.

Many of the working "pro" bush people I know have come to this same conclusion. YMMV, but food for thought??????

[boxhitch]

The very reason so many guide guns become available with little usage, Average Joe can't tolerate the abuse from 'hot bear loads'.
I will always be a fan of a normal 1895 22" barrel shooting 350-400 gr bullets near the 14-16 00 fps
comfortable and very effective on problems and just fun to shoot.

Must admit though, my latest is a 6 lb 30-06 in the scabbard

but thats a whole 'nuther topic

[mpotzold]

I bought bought myself a 45-70 to try something different then a slug gun, for a camp gun and a backup for grizzly bear and the like. I'm not reloading, I just want to buy something off the shelf that's hard hitting at close range. Less then 80yrds.
Does anyone have real world exp with bullet choice?
I'm currently shooting Hornady LEVERevolution 325gr ftx to get the feel of the gun but don't have an opinion on stopping power of such a cartridge yet.


Over the last 10 years saw moose & deer drop in their tracks using the 325 gr. Leverevolution with only 1 shot needed. Impressive.

Wanted that extra insurance if faced with a mammoth grizz that wants to kill me.
Garretts 540gr. was recommended.

So went to see Garrett near Seattle to buy the cartridges. Randy was a real friendly guy explaining why the large meplat, solid, slow moving was “the magic bullet” when facing a “ kill or be killed” scenario.
He had many photos of hunter’s successes using his ammo on his office wall.
One was of Tyler Serle a HBC member.

His story in stopping a large grizz charge using a 540gr.
"This grizzly was killed in Spatsizi Plateau Wilderness Park in the Eagle Nest Mountain Range of Northern British Columbia. He squared over 8 feet and the skull measured 23 13/16'', which is very good size for an interior mountain grizzly bear. When I shot the bear, he had started a charge from about 70 yards away, and by the time I had a sight on him, he was 40 yards. The 540 Hammerhead hit him right between the front legs, and he did a complete front-wards flip after the bullet hit him. That bullet completely penetrated him lengthwise and exited. I made a follow up shot (which was unnecessary, just instinct) after he rolled which angled through the chest, took out a section of spine, and exited the top of his skull (if you look closely at the photo you can see the exit hole in his head). Very impressive bullet performance."
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v652/jaycocreek/Grizz-3.jpg


Another example-I shot instant death - Marlin 45-70 using Buffalo bore 405 grain jacketed lead bullet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffDngrAe1Ww

[boxhitch]

Bullet Barn is loading 45/70 cartridges, 390 gr'ers supposed to shoot around the 1700 fps speed , and excellent choice and a good price too boot

[Mosin]

Try the bullet Barne on the island, they sell cast bullets and also reloaded ammo.

[MOWITCH SLAYER]

have shot several blacks with my 45-70 . I use a Hornady 450 Gr, Round nose . you well be shocked how fast that bear drops and the size of the hole .

[325]

I have shot 300 grain hard cast bullets I got from the bullet barn for my 44 Rem mag. Out of my carbine they moved away about 1400 fps. I've never killed an animal with them, but did some penetration testing into live fir. They easily penetrated anything I shot. I would have confidence in that combo for bear defence. Much less recoil than a 45/70 too

[Mr.Crumbz]

Cant go wrong with Garrett or Buffalo Bore cartridges.

[allan]

For lack of time and convenience I will prob stop by cabbelas and pick up a box of hsm bear loads, thanks for everyone's input
I'm a big guy so I hope the recoil won't be that hard to deal with.
I plink with a 30-30 so lever action is something I'm used to.

[REMINGTON JIM]

For lack of time and convenience I will prob stop by cabbelas and pick up a box of hsm bear loads, thanks for everyone's input
I'm a big guy so I hope the recoil won't be that hard to deal with.
I plink with a 30-30 so lever action is something I'm used to.

You might be a Big Fellow but you will really feel the pain after a few rounds of my 540 gr Cast Train Stoppers (1595 fps from a Light guide gun ! :smile: LOL RJ

[todbartell]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v652/jaycocreek/Grizz-3.jpg





that bear was actually shot with a Speer 400gr flat nose, as per his story on HBC many many years ago

[shortrange]

that bear was actually shot with a Speer 400gr flat nose, as per his story on HBC many many years ago

I've tried a bunch of different loads in my Marlin 1895 guide gun and I keep coming back to 405 grain hard cast. I load my own but if I didn't have the time I would get some of the Bullet Barn 390 grain, or if you feel brave 525 grain ammo. Either does the job. Funny thing about snap shots is you don't feel the recoil until later. Adrenalin I guess.

[mpotzold]

that bear was actually shot with a Speer 400gr flat nose, as per his story on HBC many many years ago

Not according to the proof I have! Please provide your version of the story!

I recognized the guy, a HBC member, by the photo on another HBC thread & he admitted that it was him on the Garrett's website shooting the grizz with the 540 gr. around 2005.

TROPHY PAGE
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/trophiesus1.html

[todbartell]

Not according to the proof I have! Please provide your version of the story!


I know Tyler. He posted the original story on the early days of huntingbc before we lost some threads during a crash. Also on the now defunct HuntShoot forum.

[Foxton Gundogs]

You might be a Big Fellow but you will really feel the pain after a few rounds of my 540 gr Cast Train Stoppers (1595 fps from a Light guide gun ! :smile: LOL RJ

What he said

[mpotzold]

I know Tyler. He posted the original story on the early days of huntingbc before we lost some threads during a crash. Also on the now defunct HuntShoot forum.

Thanks for the reply.
Maybe you were thinking of this thread from 2010 where Tyler used a 400 gr Speer on a black bear.:confused: See post#12
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?55166-BromBones-Big-Bore-Bear&highlight=tyler+serle

[allan]

You might be a Big Fellow but you will really feel the pain after a few rounds of my 540 gr Cast Train Stoppers (1595 fps from a Light guide gun ! :smile: LOL RJ
Ha ha! I hope that if push comes to shove I won't ever need more then one (or two rounds) to get the job done. I don't plan on shooting all day long with these bullets.
What's your definition of a light guide gun? Supposedly my gun weighs about 8 lbs but I have not bothered to weigh it as I don't see the point since it is what it is:)

[todbartell]

Thanks for the reply.
Maybe you were thinking of this thread from 2010 where Tyler used a 400 gr Speer on a black bear.:confused: See post#12
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?55166-BromBones-Big-Bore-Bear&highlight=tyler+serle

no, I am not mistaken. He sent the pic to Garrett for some publicity, changed the bullet used in his story to them. Why would he use Speer on black bear if he had Garrett ammo? :grin: doesn't matter to me, I don't care that much. Obviously the hard cast bullets are lethal, I will not contest that

[mpotzold]

no, I am not mistaken. He sent the pic to Garrett for some publicity, changed the bullet used in his story to them. Why would he use Speer on black bear if he had Garrett ammo? :grin: doesn't matter to me, I don't care that much. Obviously the hard cast bullets are lethal, I will not contest that

Thanks for the clarification. We'll just leave it at that.:redface:

According to the PM he sent me the grizz was shot 5 years before the blackie.
Cant believe how many hunting forums had the wrong info.

[mpotzold]

Eve uses the Leverevolution cartridges & I the 420 & 540 Garretts.
The 420 for general hunting & the 540 for grizzly protection. I went to Seattle area to buy the cartridges.
It's been proven many times that the 540 Garretts or equivalent load is hard to beat when faced with a grizzly charge. One shot will penetrate lengthwise through the bear with devastating damage.
Garrett sold his business to a Texas Co.
If I remember CampCook loads his own & he may be able to help you.
Also remember when using the 45/70 for bear protection an unscoped rifle is a better option.
http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo52/cariboo_2008/DSCN1202.jpg%7Eoriginal

(PHOTO from 24hrcamp) Thick hide-HUGE HEAD-dense,strong & huge muscles- thick, strong & big bones - fat & organs - need a BIG penetrator with high SD-
540 gr as shown (SD 361)

https://i.imgur.com/fqnNwZd.jpg

[MOOSE MILK]

Surprised no one mentioned LIMB SAVER recoil pads, do your shoulder a favor.

[REMINGTON JIM]

Surprised no one mentioned LIMB SAVER recoil pads, do your shoulder a favor.

I put a DECELERATOR on my 1895g - Big Difference over the stock hard Marlin Pad ! ;) RJ

[pricedo]

IMR3031 behind 405 grain Woodleigh Weldcore, WW cases, CC1-200 primer.
Bear, moose, elk killer.
Always liked the old reliable IMR3031 in the 45-70 GVT.
Gun is a rehabilitated Remlin with smoothed & polished innards, WWG Happy Trigger, WWG metal mag follower, Brownells cowboy action spring kit, WWG Bear Proof ejector.

[Foxton Gundogs]

My holy crap canon (45-70 Double) pushes 540 grainers, I put on a Limbsaver, much nicer to shoot now.

[pricedo]

Surprised no one mentioned LIMB SAVER recoil pads, do your shoulder a favor.

Don’t ever find the recoil heavy when firing my 1895GS.
Fired a bolt 505 Gibbs at the range last summer ... now that’s RECOIL!