Ungulate Saviors ...... Do you contribute?

[guest]

So, with so many of our Deer, Moose and Elk populations going in the tank......

Do you do your part and help by hunting spring Black Bear? Or do you just carry a B Bear tag in the fall while hunting your favourite ungulates? Or do you even hunt B Bear at all?
Do you apply for spring Grizz? Or just apply for fall G Bear while hunting other species, or not apply at all?

Bear do make for some terrific eating, various sausage types, roasts chops, hams. That said, myself I will not harvest a fish bear, if I want the flavour of fish, I'll catch a fish.

Ive taken a number of Bears over the years but have turned some focus onto spring Bear hunting in the past few years. It gives us more time in the great outdoors, we learn our areas more intimately, helping us learn more for hunting fall ungulates ...... And most notably help out our ungulates by taking out another predator. The ungulates enemy.

Do you take out a Yote or Wolf when given the opportunity? I do and have when ever given the chance.

Ive never hunted Cougar, but given that I'm planning on hunting later in the seasons, I think that's another tag I need to add to my purchases. They also can be good eating .

Have at them predators folks, there another piece of the puzzle to be controlled to help grow more Ungulates, for the future and give us more opportunity in the long run.

CT

[tinhorse]

I took a bear last fall. First one in over 15 years. Not sure why the giant gap in my bear hunting but it was absolutely awesome. I was sure hoping to get out this spring for a blackie but I am just 3 weeks post op acl surgery so I will be saving my tags for the fall. Good luck out there this spring.

[Bear Chaser]

Shooting bears is a good thing. Hope to get some kids out this spring.

[eric]

Hunt Spring B Bear, usually get my one every year.
Put in for Spring Grizz around here, haven't gotten drawn yet.
Put in for Fall Grizz this yr up along the Muskwa/Tuchodi area, hopefully my luck changes..

[chris]

I took a nice bear last weekend. Usually harvest 2 bearsa year and never pass on a dog

[Fella]

I love spring bear season, it's a great way to get out after the winter doldrums, all the fresh new growth is just awesome, it smells amazing, not to mention just the sheer amount of life that is everywhere during greenup. Bears also take a lot of fawns and calves so knocking down a ruin or two helps ungulates.

[chris]

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx131/price_chris/20170507_173657_zps7qfk3iq4.jpeg (http://s749.photobucket.com/user/price_chris/media/20170507_173657_zps7qfk3iq4.jpeg.html)

[Caribou_lou]

Id be in favour of upping the black bear limit. Only allowed to harvest 2 bears a year in the province but able to harvest 3 Deer? Seems backwards to me. Black bears. 2 in the spring, 1 in the fall. Why not?

[Caribou_lou]

I guess 3 bears a year also. 2 black and 1 Grizz. My correction

[guest]

Great to see some serious contributors above. Good on ya guys.

not that I know the science of managing Cougar, when I see evidence from game cameras of friends with 3, 5, and even 7 Cougars in a group ...... It appears to me they are very very healthy populations in some areas. I think their season should start earlier and be long. It's obvious the impact they too are having and living healthy and large in our forests. They are extremely stealth, smart ....... It's rare for any Hunter to even catch a climpse of one never mind a shot.
good on you hound boys doing your part on the Cats!

[Fisher-Dude]

Yup, I hunt black bear every spring and grizzly when I get drawn.

An interesting presentation at the BCWF AGM by grizzly bear bio Clayton Lamb showed a graph of an analysis of 1,000 g-bear scats, that challenged many preconceived notions.

It showed that calving/fawning season, when we assume that g-bears gobble down lots of babies, was actually one of the lowest times for the presence of ungulate indicators in the scat. Most of the positive indicators were in the fall (gut pile time) and in the early spring (winter kill carrion time).

Yes, g-bears do kill and eat ungulates whenever they can, and they do eat fawns and calves, but it seemed that the massive mortality rate we were expecting May - July just wasn't there.

[bearvalley]

Yup, I hunt black bear every spring and grizzly when I get drawn.

An interesting presentation at the BCWF AGM by grizzly bear bio Clayton Lamb showed a graph of an analysis of 1,000 g-bear scats, that challenged many preconceived notions.

It showed that calving/fawning season, when we assume that g-bears gobble down lots of babies, was actually one of the lowest times for the presence of ungulate indicators in the scat. Most of the positive indicators were in the fall (gut pile time) and in the early spring (winter kill carrion time).

Yes, g-bears do kill and eat ungulates whenever they can, and they do eat fawns and calves, but it seemed that the massive mortality rate we were expecting May - July just wasn't there.

Theres some recently released data out of Alaska that solidly states that "bears are bigger killers than thought" when it comes to moose and caribou calves.
In a 3 year study (2011-2013) where 7 bears carried camera collars and GPS trackers data was compiled.
During the critical calving period, more than half of these bears meals came from moose and caribou calves, 20% from vegetation and 12% from adult moose. Snowshoe hares, waterfowl and other bears were also protein.
"Overall, the bears killed an average of 34.4 moose and caribou calves in 45 days.
One bear was credited with killing 44 calves in 25 days while another killed just 7 in 27 days.
So once again, we are faced with conflicting data.

[guest]

Interesting find by Claton FD.
that said, in the past, and some years ago hunting 7-42 and 7-50 for moose, elk and sheep, we were told by the Bio's then, the G bears were hammering the Elk and moose calves, yet they offered one tag for GBears, and every year we would see them and in a couple of occasions had confrontations with them.
In region 3 while hunting goats I've found numberous piles of Bear shat with Goat bones in it ...... Whether that be winter kill or what who knows.
in my opinion, for the many that say "wow what's happened to our moose deer and elk" most of them do not hunt Bear, or wack a Wolf or Yote when given the chance.
I do think it's one of the many management tools we gave to help the Ungulates.

wow BValley, those are some horrific numbers ........ That's why I say, Have at ER!

CT

[RiverOtter]

Just a comment on FD's post. I would think predation correlations in ungulate sign in bear scat would be a tough one to nail down with any conclusive authority on "numbers killed". Simply because so much predation can take place in such a short period of time. Also, I'd assume bears are apt to frenzy killing, similar to a weasel in a hen house and therefore not eat(or even feed on) every calf/fawn they kill.

[RiverOtter]

Long way of saying, I put a lot more stock in a gps/camera collar study, if the goal is to prove bears impact on ungulate pops with any certainty.

[Fella]

Interesting find by Claton FD.
that said, in the past, and some years ago hunting 7-42 and 7-50 for moose, elk and sheep, we were told by the Bio's then, the G bears were hammering the Elk and moose calves, yet they offered one tag for GBears, and every year we would see them and in a couple of occasions had confrontations with them.
In region 3 while hunting goats I've found numberous piles of Bear shat with Goat bones in it ...... Whether that be winter kill or what who knows.
in my opinion, for the many that say "wow what's happened to our moose deer and elk" most of them do not hunt Bear, or wack a Wolf or Yote when given the chance.
I do think it's one of the many management tools we gave to help the Ungulates.

wow BValley, those are some horrific numbers ........ That's why I say, Have at ER!

CT
Could the conflicting info be due to differences in available feed? For instance would a bear on the island (where there is an abundance of feed) necessarily be relying as much on fawns than a bear up in Alaska? I'm not an expert so educate me if I'm wrong.

[Bunner]

I take 2 black bears a year. Usually taken in the spring. I do what I can to help predator control and will never pass up on a wolf. Do put in for a griz draw every year but have only been drawn once

[Hublocker]

The role of American black bears and brown bears as
predators on ungulates in North America
Peter Zager
1,3
and John Beecham
2,4
1
Idaho Department of Fish and Game, 3316 16
th
Street, Lewiston, ID 83501, USA
2
Beringia South, 2723 North Lakeharbor Lane, Boise, ID 83703, USA
Abstract:
American black bears (
Ursus americanus
) and brown bears (
U. arctos
) can be important
predators on neonatal ungulates. They prey less commonly on adult ungulates. Bear predation appears
to be additive at low ungulate densities and may become compensatory as prey density approaches
carrying capacity,
K
. As such, black and brown bear predation can limit, but generally does not
regulate, ungulate populations. Maternal and neonatal physical condition, birth synchrony, and birth
mass may predispose neonates to predation or other mortality factors. Though black and brown bear
predation is an important proximate cause of ungulate neonatal mortality, habitat quality and quantity
are important ultimate factors influencing this dynamic. Manipulating bear populations to enhance
ungulate populations may be successful in the short-term if predation is additive, but long-term success
has not been demonstrated.
Key words:
additive mortality, black bears, brown bears, compensatory mortality, neonatal mortality, North America,
population dynamics, predation, ungulates,
Ursus americanus
,
Ursus arctos
Ursus 17(2):95–108 (2006

[two-feet]

I have seen a few thousand black bear scats in my life, rarely is there any hair in it. I have also heard that black bears skin their kills. So who knows. Knowing how good a sense of smell they possess, it would not be hard to imagine a bear sniffing out a fawn or calf for a meal. I am unsure of what impact blackies have on ungulates, would like to see more data.

I feel grizzlies are more comfortable as predators, I assume they kill many moose calves.

The one thing I know for sure is how much wolf shit I see every time I go anywhere in the bush, always a rope of moose hair. I can only imagine how many moose go down every day in the local area.

[Remsoles]

I would love to hunt bears more, have shot a few problem bear in the long past but I haven't bothered hunt them for a long time. I know the impact they have on calf numbers, and they need to be pared down some for sure. But I have zero interest in eating one when beef/other ungulates are available, so what is a guy supposed to do with a bear after he shoots it? Hide too, can only put so many bear rugs on the wall.
That said I do usually carry a bear tag in my pocket just in case I see a monster, but I've yet to go hunting specifically for bear.

[jtred]

I love spring black bear hunting and carry a tag in the fall as well. Grizzly hunting doesn't interest me at all but I will shoot a wolf or coyote given the opportunity. I go out a few times each winter with my 25-06 looking for wolves and coyotes just haven't had a great deal of success with wolves.

[markomoose]

Hunt Black Bear every Spring.My Son is loading up the truck as I sit.Got a Grizz draw as well this Spring .Hope it all goes as planned?

[HarryToolips]

Well said CT....I hunt bear in both seasons, just got my first spring griz draw, unfortunately I haven't got much time to hunt that draw....the tastiest bear I shot last fall while hunting high elevation muleys...pack out 3 miles, quarters, back-straps, and head..very tasty, as tasty as my WT buck I got last fall..
Unfortunately I do not have photos of my other black bears shot..

http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y364/harrytoolips/blackbear2_zps6cqi3ziq.jpg (http://s1030.photobucket.com/user/harrytoolips/media/blackbear2_zps6cqi3ziq.jpg.html)

[HarryToolips]

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx131/price_chris/20170507_173657_zps7qfk3iq4.jpeg (http://s749.photobucket.com/user/price_chris/media/20170507_173657_zps7qfk3iq4.jpeg.html)

Looks decent size, how heavy approximately??

[mpotzold]

Great to see some serious contributors above. Good on ya guys.

not that I know the science of managing Cougar, when I see evidence from game cameras of friends with 3, 5, and even 7 Cougars in a group ...... It appears to me they are very very healthy populations in some areas. I think their season should start earlier and be long. It's obvious the impact they too are having and living healthy and large in our forests. They are extremely stealth, smart ....... It's rare for any Hunter to even catch a climpse of one never mind a shot.
good on you hound boys doing your part on the Cats!

No kidding!

I've been hunting for over 50 years & have seen only 2 cats. One was gone in the wink of an eye, the other one came to our camper attracted by Eve's cooking. Needed buckshot from a 12 gauge above it's head from about 30 feet to change its direction.
I'm considering a cat tag this year. 1 cat dead=50+ deer alive per year. Never heard of cougar meat tasting bad or someone getting sick from eating it.

Re: bear meat one has to worry about trichinosis & what the bear has been feeding on in particular rotten meat or fish. Thanks but no thanks.
I will not shoot a wolf or a coyote.

Posted this before
http://www.themeateater.com/2012/varied-black-bear-meat/

[Ourea]

There is not shortage of tooth and claws out there.
Since I invested heavily in trail cams my understanding and respect for just how many meat eaters r out there has gone up.
You probably don't see them while out for a drive or walk ........ but they r there....and in spades.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLDqpDarBSc

Imagine how hard this pack of five cats r on deer.
That's a lot of hungry mouths.....

[FortBoy]

always go out for spring bbear, great fun during the wait for deer season, meats pretty good. always throw lead at dogs, havent had the chance at a cat or a grizz yet.

[Ourea]

This massive grizzly has been sharing one of my hunting spots for well over a decade.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/griz5.jpg (http://s1219.photobucket.com/user/browndog100/media/griz5.jpg.html)

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/griz3.jpg (http://s1219.photobucket.com/user/browndog100/media/griz3.jpg.html)

He is king.
Solid 8 ft interior bear.
Imagine what he has killed and eaten over the last 25 yrs.
Good news is he probably terminated a lot of black bears in his life.

I became quite nervous once he got within 60 yards.
It was a thrill to see an apex animal of this size.

[HarryToolips]

No kidding!

I've been hunting for over 50 years & have seen only 2 cats. One was gone in the wink of an eye, the other one came to our camper attracted by Eve's cooking. Needed buckshot from a 12 gauge above it's head from about 30 feet to change its direction.
I'm considering a cat tag this year. 1 cat dead=50+ deer alive per year. Never heard of cougar meat tasting bad or someone getting sick from eating it.

Re: bear meat one has to worry about trichinosis & what the bear has been feeding on in particular rotten meat or fish. Thanks but no thanks.
I will not shoot a wolf or a coyote.

Posted this before
http://www.themeateater.com/2012/varied-black-bear-meat/

Shoot a mid/high elevation non garbage bear, that isn't near salmon and the meat should be fine...why wouldn't you shoot a wolf or coyote??

[Ourea]

Pretty much every cam I set gets preds.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTgqQ66_sL8

[Ourea]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9lJBKI3hHk

[Ourea]

Hard to see but this was a face to face with a juvenile cougar....at 15 ft we had a stare down.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isEsh0zpEhM

[Ourea]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGA62eFc8Bw

[Ourea]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQCVPl4JRAs

[Ourea]

Previous posts r in support of what Curly Top is trying to say.
There is an abundance of preds out there.

We, as hunters, mostly take from only one side of the ledger.

[luger]

I've taken 2 bears in the last few years. I not a huge fan of the meat as roast or steaks but I got a bunch made in to bear cheese smokies at Sumas meats. Delicious and the wife loved them too. I've taken this spring off from bear hunting just cause I got a kid due in a few weeks and I'm not allowed to go to places without reception. This fall or next spring I'll get back out for bears and try and get one for smokies.

[HappyJack]

I like to shoot them when they are feeding on berries in the fall, blueberry fed black bears are the best eating!! Honey Garlic pepperoni is good when made with bear meat too.

[guest]

Great vids Ourea, thanks for the share!

Wow! Incredible Kitty action! Some excellent footage !

[Ride Red]

Black Bear pepperoni is some of the best I've eaten. Reminds me that my stash is dwindling.;-)

[Bear Chaser]

Just a comment on FD's post. I would think predation correlations in ungulate sign in bear scat would be a tough one to nail down with any conclusive authority on "numbers killed". Simply because so much predation can take place in such a short period of time. Also, I'd assume bears are apt to frenzy killing, similar to a weasel in a hen house and therefore not eat(or even feed on) every calf/fawn they kill.

I'm pretty sure they eat every calf they kill.
A newborn calf moose would be an appetizer for a large grizzly much the same as a plate of ten chicken wings for a human. Lots of bones and a bit of tasty meat then time for more.
A rancher friend of mine showed me a picture of a horse he lost to a grizzly that would rival the size of the grizzly Ourea posted. In one sitting the bear ate most of the front shoulder, the ribs, the hind quarter from one side and all of innards. He then showed me a picture and video of the bear from a 1000 yards out. Huge would be an understatement.

[horshur]

Curly the cougar season to have any effect on population needs to focus on females..current regulations as they stand protect females.Cougar are managed for high populations in BC.

[Sitkaspruce]

Theres some recently released data out of Alaska that solidly states that "bears are bigger killers than thought" when it comes to moose and caribou calves.
In a 3 year study (2011-2013) where 7 bears carried camera collars and GPS trackers data was compiled.
During the critical calving period, more than half of these bears meals came from moose and caribou calves, 20% from vegetation and 12% from adult moose. Snowshoe hares, waterfowl and other bears were also protein.
"Overall, the bears killed an average of 34.4 moose and caribou calves in 45 days.
One bear was credited with killing 44 calves in 25 days while another killed just 7 in 27 days.
So once again, we are faced with conflicting data.

BV

I just taught a Bear Aware course this week where I had some Bio's and techs attending, including a Large Carnivore/Bear Bio. We got around to discussing the Alaska study and what they are now looking at, in BC, Yukon and Alaska is it a genetic thing, learned or just the odd chance with the bears.

Lots more to look at than just 7 bears.....

I think we will never really know the who or how or why, but in the end, ungulates and bears have been getting along a lot longer than we have been studying them.

Cheers

SS

[Rob Chipman]

It's worth mentioning that when Clayton Lamb was directly questioned on whether his data disproved the conception that bears whack a ton of calves he said something pretty close to "The data we collected in our area didn't show that, but that's one data set from one location and one study" - in other words, he was not making any sort of argument either way; he was just presenting the data. He was just showing the data that they had collected. On many fronts it was a very interesting and informative presentation.

And, yeah, I have contributed and hope to contribute again!

[mpotzold]

Shoot a mid/high elevation non garbage bear, that isn't near salmon and the meat should be fine...why wouldn't you shoot a wolf or coyote??

The main reason. They remind me of dogs.

It all started when I was still a teen surveying mining claims in the remote Yukon wilderness. A FN guy in the next door tent camp stole a wolf pup near Pelly River & we watched it grow. The pup behaved similar to a dog except for the ravenous appetite. It was also a 1 man dog. They even took him for a helicopter ride in the mountains.

I have approached more than a few wolves while hunting & even had a staring match with a huge wolf from less than 100 feet. It was like meeting a huge German shepherd. No problem.

Was surrounded by a large pack while staying in a doorless shack near Germansen. They were after 2 moose.

Stayed in Whitehorse for a while in the 60's & it seemed like every yard had part or a pure wolf in it.

I have also walked up to coyotes & will have to dig up some old photos.
We even named one of our favourite hunting roads REX ROAD. Eve named the handsome & very large coyote REX that we saw at least a couple of times. Have a photo somewhere.

You know you're in the wilderness when you hear that melancholy sound of the wolves howling.

And from my experience the bears not the wolves are a major reason for the declining game numbers.

[bearvalley]

BV

I just taught a Bear Aware course this week where I had some Bio's and techs attending, including a Large Carnivore/Bear Bio. We got around to discussing the Alaska study and what they are now looking at, in BC, Yukon and Alaska is it a genetic thing, learned or just the odd chance with the bears.

Lots more to look at than just 7 bears.....

I think we will never really know the who or how or why, but in the end, ungulates and bears have been getting along a lot longer than we have been studying them.

Cheers

SS

SS, I get what you're saying.
Personaly, I don't think every bear is a calf eater. I beleive killing ungulate calves is an acquired habit for some bears but not all.
The ones that are really good at lapping up calves more than make up for the grass eaters.
A well respected predator hunter told me that if a bear starts out in the spring hunting fresh meat...that's his diet.
From what I've seen this statement pretty much holds true.

[Caribou_lou]

Some may not eat calves but I know when Im fishing lakes June Ist. Im not without my rifle. Seen numerous bears chasing cows and calves. Why do Cow Moose have their calves close to water or on islands? Scent cover and an easy escape route I believe. Moose swim much faster than bears. We've saved a few over the years. Not big bears either surprisingly. Just my opinion. Studys may prove otherwise.

[HarryToolips]

The main reason. They remind me of dogs.

It all started when I was still a teen surveying mining claims in the remote Yukon wilderness. A FN guy in the next door tent camp stole a wolf pup near Pelly River & we watched it grow. The pup behaved similar to a dog except for the ravenous appetite. It was also a 1 man dog. They even took him for a helicopter ride in the mountains.

I have approached more than a few wolves while hunting & even had a staring match with a huge wolf from less than 100 feet. It was like meeting a huge German shepherd. No problem.

Was surrounded by a large pack while staying in a doorless shack near Germansen. They were after 2 moose.

Stayed in Whitehorse for a while in the 60's & it seemed like every yard had part or a pure wolf in it.

I have also walked up to coyotes & will have to dig up some old photos.
We even named one of our favourite hunting roads REX ROAD. Eve named the handsome & very large coyote REX that we saw at least a couple of times. Have a photo somewhere.

You know you're in the wilderness when you hear that melancholy sound of the wolves howling.

And from my experience the bears not the wolves are a major reason for the declining game numbers.
Gotcha............

[guest]

Last spring 2016 Near end of May, buddy and I went to the Silmilkamen area, spending time scouting areas and looking for a good BooBoo. I've always wanted a nice Cinnomon phase B Bear.
We were pleased to see two new born calf moose so freshly outa their mom that their legs still shook. So cool, what a great sight to see in such a hard hit area. Bear scat was everywhere, we didn't attempt to get close to stress the cow or calves as they had enough challenge on their own in the low temperatures as newborns and a number of Bears through out the area.

we headed out for another area, I had a few different high powers to put some lead through and bring to zero so we set up at buds favourite range in a logout. With targets set at 25 and 100 yards, we took several shots over some time. Not trying to talk quiet as we put the last gun away, not five minutes after the last of several loud shots, a big fat doe, that looked preggers came out of the near bush line. She walked throughout the shooting area and right under the 100 yard target, not caring a dam of our presence. As she did a half circle and looped around behind us not more then 60 yards ..... A loud snap came from the area she first had appeared. It was a decent Cinnomon B Bear, he followed her path through the clearing, sniffing and covering ground every where the doe had gone. I mean Every where, we assumed she was ready for birth, as she was like a barrel, and he went everywhere she had traveled. Wow, he was covering ground quick as I readied for a shot at my first Colour phase Bear. I bawled at him in attempt to stop him, he continued ...... I bawled like a Bear louder and he stopped in his tracks and looked up directly toward me, and dropped dead ...... Didn't move a twitch.
What a sequence of events ...... There was no doubt in our mind, he was after that doe. Maybe her water had broke, maybe he senced she was ready for birth. Who knows, but he followed her every move. The doe was still behind us when the smoke cleared from the rifle haha ...... Waving a Thankyou ...... I'd like to think, she headed off to have her fawn or fawns in peace.
Hes a beautiful coloured Cinnomon Bear, I had him tanned, but not not rugged. Beauty! He wasn't huge, just over 5 1/2 feet, but a real fatty, he'd been eating very very well indeed. Tough for us two ol cripples to even get to the deactivated road, only 60 yards away.

What at an experience to share with a good friend, we still laugh about the entire show ...... Couldn't believe it, still shaking our heads over that one. Ya never know when your going to be rewarded with a prize to be remembered for a long long time. Very cool share together. Made some terrific sausages of three different types and smoked hams.

Delicious!

SSS will share a pic later as my computer skills are brutal ...... Thanks SSS

CT

[Stone Sheep Steve]

For Curly top....

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18402850_458687077801179_4108697953684507089_n.jpg ?oh=2c242e635688290ae78c4aeb5a4f9ba4&oe=59BDBAA3

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Yotes do a lot of damage just due to their numbers.....but all preds do their part.

Here's one from this past winter.

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18485303_458706571132563_6069833668652757834_n.jpg ?oh=31a59711b09662f21e8d02ef22fe1a85&oe=5977B054
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16807703_417524778584076_8031844796956881584_n.jpg ?oh=cbf7bfa3f4d1965a57fe43bd264e4943&oe=59B9D70B
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16864451_417524941917393_9110115836800272132_n.jpg ?oh=c5b94f0064cb27c2549ea6d7f901ea01&oe=59B320DD

[souwester]

The main reason. They remind me of dogs.

It all started when I was still a teen surveying mining claims in the remote Yukon wilderness. A FN guy in the next door tent camp stole a wolf pup near Pelly River & we watched it grow. The pup behaved similar to a dog except for the ravenous appetite. It was also a 1 man dog. They even took him for a helicopter ride in the mountains.

I have approached more than a few wolves while hunting & even had a staring match with a huge wolf from less than 100 feet. It was like meeting a huge German shepherd. No problem.

Was surrounded by a large pack while staying in a doorless shack near Germansen. They were after 2 moose.

Stayed in Whitehorse for a while in the 60's & it seemed like every yard had part or a pure wolf in it.

I have also walked up to coyotes & will have to dig up some old photos.
We even named one of our favourite hunting roads REX ROAD. Eve named the handsome & very large coyote REX that we saw at least a couple of times. Have a photo somewhere.

You know you're in the wilderness when you hear that melancholy sound of the wolves howling.

And from my experience the bears not the wolves are a major reason for the declining game numbers.

My limited experience shows this to be absolutely false.
Here on Vancouver Island there is still good bear hunting but bear numbers are significantly down at the moment.
I agree the odd bear does become accustomed to killing ungulates ,bears that predate livestock habitually prove this.

No one wants to do anything about it but wolves are the problem.
Parts of Vancouver Island are horrible again.

[mpotzold]

My limited experience shows this to be absolutely false.
Here on Vancouver Island there is still good bear hunting but bear numbers are significantly down at the moment.
I agree the odd bear does become accustomed to killing ungulates ,bears that predate livestock habitually prove this.

No one wants to do anything about it but wolves are the problem.
Parts of Vancouver Island are horrible again.

I beg to differ!

Based on experience from the areas we hunt.

I’m convinced that bears are the major part of the equation in the dwindling moose numbers in some region 5 management areas where we mostly hunt. Been hunting mostly the 5-03 & some in 5-04 areas for 50 years. On a recent hunting trip saw 14 black bears in about 2 days & only a few fresh moose signs & yes we covered a large area both by road & by foot. Also according to other hunters we met the black bear numbers are way up from about 10 years ago.
Wolves are a rare sight in the area.

No doubt wolves kill many moose in BC but they have been doing it for eons. They probably seek out the vulnerable(old,sick..)first.

According to BC govt there are approximately 8500 wolves in BC but could be as low as 5300-not much different from about 30 years ago. There are close to 180,000 black/grizzly in BC.-no doubt a conservative estimate.

It’s well known that the bears seek out & kill up to ½ of the newborn.


Researchers found that brown bears ate a lot more caribou and moose calves than was previously believed-one brown bear killed 44 calves in 25 days
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/03/bears-are-bigger-killers-thought-gruesome-video-footage-reveals

Alaskans kill bears to save moose
Research indicates that predation by bears is playing a significant role in preventing the moose population from increasing. A wolf control program has been in effect in the unit since 2004 but reducing wolf numbers has not had a noticeable effect on the moose population,
http://georgesoutdoornews.bangordailynews.com/2014/10/27/maine-woods/alaskans-kill-bears-to-save-moose/ (http://georgesoutdoornews.bangordailynews.com/2014/10/27/maine-woods/alaskans-kill-bears-to-save-moose/)

[Stone Sheep Steve]

My limited experience shows this to be absolutely false.
Here on Vancouver Island there is still good bear hunting but bear numbers are significantly down at the moment.
I agree the odd bear does become accustomed to killing ungulates ,bears that predate livestock habitually prove this.

No one wants to do anything about it but wolves are the problem.
Parts of Vancouver Island are horrible again.


I beg to differ!

Based on experience from the areas we hunt.

I’m convinced that bears are the major part of the equation in the dwindling moose numbers in some region 5 management areas where we mostly hunt. Been hunting mostly the 5-03 & some in 5-04 areas for 50 years. On a recent hunting trip saw 14 black bears in about 2 days & only a few fresh moose signs & yes we covered a large area both by road & by foot. Also according to other hunters we met the black bear numbers are way up from about 10 years ago.
Wolves are a rare sight in the area.

No doubt wolves kill many moose in BC but they have been doing it for eons. They probably seek out the vulnerable(old,sick..)first.

According to BC govt there are approximately 8500 wolves in BC but could be as low as 5300-not much different from about 30 years ago. There are close to 180,000 black/grizzly in BC.-no doubt a conservative estimate.

It’s well known that the bears seek out & kill up to ½ of the newborn.


Researchers found that brown bears ate a lot more caribou and moose calves than was previously believed-one brown bear killed 44 calves in 25 days
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/03/bears-are-bigger-killers-thought-gruesome-video-footage-reveals

Alaskans kill bears to save moose
Research indicates that predation by bears is playing a significant role in preventing the moose population from increasing. A wolf control program has been in effect in the unit since 2004 but reducing wolf numbers has not had a noticeable effect on the moose population,
http://georgesoutdoornews.bangordailynews.com/2014/10/27/maine-woods/alaskans-kill-bears-to-save-moose/ (http://georgesoutdoornews.bangordailynews.com/2014/10/27/maine-woods/alaskans-kill-bears-to-save-moose/)

And this is why each area must be studied. Different locations can have different factors driving populations.

[quadrakid]

Back when i was a youngster in the yukon i knew a couple of bushmen that routinely shot every bear they saw, regardless of season or limits.Those guys were in to helping ungulates. Not saying they were right.

[souwester]

Mpotzold I don't personally believe the numbers or that the studies presented are not biased and or flawed.
I do however respect that you have formed an opinion on whats happening in an area based on your own personal experience.That is good, we need more of that even if we disagree.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Yup, I hunt black bear every spring and grizzly when I get drawn.

An interesting presentation at the BCWF AGM by grizzly bear bio Clayton Lamb showed a graph of an analysis of 1,000 g-bear scats, that challenged many preconceived notions.

It showed that calving/fawning season, when we assume that g-bears gobble down lots of babies, was actually one of the lowest times for the presence of ungulate indicators in the scat. Most of the positive indicators were in the fall (gut pile time) and in the early spring (winter kill carrion time).

Yes, g-bears do kill and eat ungulates whenever they can, and they do eat fawns and calves, but it seemed that the massive mortality rate we were expecting May - July just wasn't there.

I wonder if a good chunk of this study was conducted when elk recruitment in the East Kootenays started to tank?

[303savage]

Seen a mother black bear with 4 cubs the other day, 3 blacks and one was brown. Never seen a bear with more than 2 cubs before.

[two-feet]

I have twice seen black bear sows with 5 cubs.

[boxhitch]

Different locations can have different factors driving populations.pre-zackerly. Bears are omnivores and opportunists and territorial. Any bear that has a protein based buffet laid out in his home turf will make the choices that suit him and his frame of mind and nutritional needs.


And this is why each area must be studiedTo what end? To say Bear A eats meat and Bear B eats greens
Studies are good to get students ejumacated, but unfortunately seldom do the results end up in on-the-ground benefits.

IIRC the Alaska cull is concentrated on the ungulate calving range, likely the very spot the bear would choose a protein diet.
The same reason I hunt predators in the same place I hunt deer.........call me selfish )

[souwester]

Show me a BC study NOT AMERICAN ,where a bear population model has "prey biomass" as a factor in the equation.

Show me a chart that with a linear curve that proves bear populations are directly related to ungulate populations From a reputable BC scientist or wildlife tech.

How come on the mainland coast in areas of high bear density both grizzly and blacks co -exist fine with blacktails and populations only seem to crash when wolves disperse into areas?
How come there was success in increasing blacktail densities in the Nimpkish area on Vancouver island when a wolf program was implemented?That Area has high bear density.

[boxhitch]

Just proving that 'always' and 'never' are words that cannot be used in reference to WILDlife behaviour or dining habits.

[bearvalley]

Show me a BC study NOT AMERICAN ,where a bear population model has "prey biomass" as a factor in the equation.

Show me a chart that with a linear curve that proves bear populations are directly related to ungulate populations From a reputable BC scientist or wildlife tech.

How come on the mainland coast in areas of high bear density both grizzly and blacks co -exist fine with blacktails and populations only seem to crash when wolves disperse into areas?
How come there was success in increasing blacktail densities in the Nimpkish area on Vancouver island when a wolf program was implemented?That Area has high bear density.

A BC study on bear predation should be done and mpotzolds hunting area of MU's 5-3 and 5-4 would be a good place to start.
A moose study is already underway in the Big Creek area and wolf predation has been identified as one of the factors removing adult cow moose.
The cow/calf survival ratio has been noted.
One of the points noted in the study so far is the low percentage of young cow moose.
Is the combination of both bear predation on the calves and the upswing in wolf numbers in that area what is slowing the recruitment of young breeding age moose.
I think that's the case and a bit more time will tell the story.
This past spring some complete pack wolf removal was done in a portion of MU 5-3 in efforts to boost a struggling California bighorn sheep population.
It will be interesting to see if removing these wolves to help the sheep also gives the moose a boost.

[GoatGuy]

Interesting thread, shows without a properly funded model, and science, we won't get anywhere.

62 posts on HBC won't help change that, 62 meetings with MLAs would......

[bearvalley]

Interesting thread, shows without a properly funded model, and science, we won't get anywhere.

62 posts on HBC won't help change that, 62 meetings with MLAs would......
I got one tomorrow morning....now that we've got MLAs again!

[REMINGTON JIM]

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx131/price_chris/20170507_173657_zps7qfk3iq4.jpeg (http://s749.photobucket.com/user/price_chris/media/20170507_173657_zps7qfk3iq4.jpeg.html)

Good Kill another Predator down ! RJ

[snipersights]

I hunt blackies every year from April 1st until I get one. Every weekend I can afford I'm out there. Friends wanna hang out drink beers have bbq's nope not until I get my first bear. Now that I have one I'll relax a bit until may long. Oh wait that's this weekend hehehe. I also think two deer and 3 bears would be fine maybe have a 2 in the spring one in the fall limit. SS

[souwester]

I don't think there really is a need for more studies,Is there even an up to date data set for bear and or moose populations in any MU in region 5?
How about the first nation groups associated with the wildlife stewardship group hammer the provincial government about ungulate populations ?
Isnt that organization a part of this new Wildlife Group that's been announced?
As far as I'm concerned resident hunters can blast all the bears they want and it isn't gonna fix the moose problem.
Go ahead and educate me or prove me wrong.
No offense to curly top ,I understand why u created this thread.

[Rob Chipman]

I don't know if there's a need for *more* studies, because I don't know how many we have already. Exposure to a few of the bios who are studying wildlife in this part of the world leads me to believe that we aren't taking as much advantage of knowledge that we have as we might do. However, if we do not have a data set for Region 5 or any MU therein, as souwester asks, it seems fair to say we need one.

We may need to work with FNs, but they aren't going to take care of us - that's on us alone.

We need more science based knowledge or we'll never effectively counter anti-hunters.

(None of that means shooting more bears will solve the problem, I admit).

[IslandWanderer]

I live on Vancouver Island and I'd sure like to get into wolf hunting, but I'm not sure how to do it. Cougars require dogs, or $$$$ for a guide so that's out. If anyone on the island has any wolf hunting tips please let me know.

[two-feet]

I don't know if there's a need for *more* studies, because I don't know how many we have already. Exposure to a few of the bios who are studying wildlife in this part of the world leads me to believe that we aren't taking as much advantage of knowledge that we have as we might do. However, if we do not have a data set for Region 5 or any MU therein, as souwester asks, it seems fair to say we need one.

We may need to work with FNs, but they aren't going to take care of us - that's on us alone.

We need more science based knowledge or we'll never effectively counter anti-hunters.

(None of that means shooting more bears will solve the problem, I admit).

well put as per normal.

The fn will not take care of us, but we do have a common goal: to have enough game to support productive hunting. In this vein we could form a powerful bloc to advocate habitat enhancement as well as predator reduction.

[Gateholio]

And from my experience the bears not the wolves are a major reason for the declining game numbers.

Get out there and kill a bear or two then! :)

[Ourea]

Souwester, every area has it's nuances with respects to habitat challenges, human interface, pred prey relationships....the list goes on.
Very few areas are the same.

The big picture is to get behind and support the model that will bring the resources to address critical factors that are handicapping wildlife in BC.
Wildlife will never benefit regardless of partnerships if the resources are not brought to the table.

Long way to go but off to a good start.

[Gateholio]

I don't know why anyone is arguing bears vs wolves. Bears and wolves are predators and will kill and eat ungulates, we all know that.

Hunting and killing a few bears may not make a huge difference, but it can't hurt, and might help a bit. I know I've come across a fair amount of bear scat with fawn toenails in it.

And yes, I hunt bears. Killed dozens, ate them too. I think in the last 5 years I've killed 8 bears, and helped out new hunters to kill a few , too.