Reg 3 Mule Deer Survey 2017

[Bugle M In]

So, I received a Regional Mule Deer Survey 2017 for Reg 3.
Anyone else on here??

[steve-r]

I received it today. Every question was oriented towards a pending reduction in mule deer hunting opportunity. Seemed more of a question about how to implement the reduction than if it should be done.

[wos]

This doesn't sound good !

[wos]

I always thought they should look at making regon 8 and 5 seasons more along the lines of what 3 has going on to lighten any pressure in the early and late season. Time to get back to the way it was because the way it is surly hasn't helped fix any problems with the population.

[boxhitch]

8 and 5 openings are more conservative than 3 , and thats not helping the situation in those regions.
Regulated Hunters aren't the problem

Any chance there was some supporting data offered with the survey?

[Red_Mist]

8 and 5 openings are more conservative than 3 , and thats not helping the situation in those regions.
Regulated Hunters aren't the problem

Any chance there was some supporting data offered with the survey?

Only that hunter pressure has nearly doubled in "recent" years.

[Rob Chipman]

Got it in today's mail.

[wos]

I'm trying to say we need to lengthen seasons in 5 and 8 to match that of 3. As it could reduce the early and late season pressure.

[luckofthedraw]

I heard these were coming out. I did not receive one.

Recently at a Fish and Game meeting we had a couple of region 3 biologists attend to discuss local deer, moose and sheep numbers. They advised that this survey was coming out. They are seeking more info on hunter harvest. I find it extremely silly that the only hard data the bio's have had to work with the last dozen years is the hunter harvest forms that get sent out every season. Even this survey, why is going out via mail? If they want data from hunters, in this day and age send out an email survey to every hunter. Voluntary to answer. I believe majority would fill it out no questions asked.

They are focused on how to "maintain" stable wildlife numbers in the region. This is a problem in itself. Why are we trying to maintain numbers and not trying to bring them back like they once were. ????

They discussed the future of region 3, and how to re-enforce mule deer numbers. Suggesting decreasing bag limit, shortening seasons, rut-closure like region 5. Currently they don't know the answer. They don't find evidence that any of that is working; so they are seeking statistics to better the future of mule deer.

[luckofthedraw]

They mentioned a stat that something like 90% of the mule deer in region 3 are shot during the month of October during any buck.

[Jelvis]

--- I think the Ministry should put all mule deer in Region 3 on LEH. No open seasons like now.
Get away from anybuck yok tober and regular season, 4 point and antlerless, too confusing.
--- With leh the count control wood be easier, more efficient, and could be used and regulated over the entire season from Sept to Dec, and a report from successful numbers from hunters who got lucky and got an leh and the ones who applied but dint win, could b questioned as well about why etc they chose this Reg 3 for leh mules etc. This is about sustained conservation of mules.
---+- > The Ministry has a great record in Region 3 for suburb game management and wild life habitat protection over many decades. Honest concern, I've met many from here and they are top of the line.
=-//----> I'm thinking this is what the Ministry is setting up but won't tell because of the back lash at first and the outrage etc. Too hard for hunters of old to handle, the newbies will just accept it as a new digital world and a game to play and win a tag whoa man !
Jel -- this is what you will see in two years or so, LEH Mule Reg 3 LEH Only! -- mark my words

[wos]

The rut closure in 5 has done nothing for deer numbers. It's time to address real wildlife issues if we want to start seeing change.

[Mulehahn]

The rut closure in 5 has done nothing for deer numbers. It's time to address real wildlife issues if we want to start seeing change.

Exactly!

From what I can gather, they want to take the most productive region in the province and make it fall inline with the two neighbouring regions that are in a diwnward spiral! Guess they are taking the everyone must suffer equally approach.

[Caribou_lou]

Jel -- this is what you will see in two years or so, LEH Mule Reg 3 LEH Only! -- mark my words

You will never see all Region 3 Mule Deer on LEH. Good for a laugh.

[HarryToolips]

They mentioned a stat that something like 90% of the mule deer in region 3 are shot during the month of October during any buck.
So if 90% of the harvest of mule deer in region 3 is during the any buck season, what exactly will a rut closure in November during the 4 pt season accomplish??

[Jelvis]

LEH is the future of all by what I see going on, the mule deer leh I suggest for our Ministry to follow goes like this.
----- Make it all leh for antlered and antlerless, no counting tines and all that, if you got an leh antlered, and you see a mule with tine go for it and also for antlerless same type of thing.
----- Make it a fun leh for mules in Region 3
----- help make leh group application for mules for a hunting party -- not just single aps.
----- help to set leh up for hunting party's of four down to two members.
----- if party wins, both or all four get a relevant mule leh tag. This wood be more fiscal for hunters.
----- The Ministry sets leh mule in Reg 3 for financial use also the income from applications for these wanted tags would be welcomed and used to apply protection of mules in Region 3 itself.
----- LEH mules by leh only in Reg 3 would increase the Ministry's income by applications alone.
----- We owe it to ourselves as muley hunters in reg 3 to obey the Ministry at all times.
Jel -- let's be honest and work with our Ministry together to enhance our reg 3 mule deer habitat.

[Caribou_lou]

So if 90% of the harvest of mule deer in region 3 is during the any buck season, what exactly will a rut closure in November during the 4 pt season accomplish??

Exactly! Seems as though they are trying to fix something that isn't broke...

If 90% are harvested in any buck how many of those are 3 point and smaller? Probably close to 100%. The one year I hunted Kamloops we hunted a popular area and saw three 4 points in two days. Mid November. Don't recall how many big 3 points we saw, but saw many. This is something I feel could be addressed. Open it for a week mid November to take out some of those big 3 points.

[HarryToolips]

--- I think the Ministry should put all mule deer in Region 3 on LEH. No open seasons like now.
Get away from anybuck yok tober and regular season, 4 point and antlerless, too confusing.
--- With leh the count control wood be easier, more efficient, and could be used and regulated over the entire season from Sept to Dec, and a report from successful numbers from hunters who got lucky and got an leh and the ones who applied but dint win, could b questioned as well about why etc they chose this Reg 3 for leh mules etc. This is about sustained conservation of mules.
---+- > The Ministry has a great record in Region 3 for suburb game management and wild life habitat protection over many decades. Honest concern, I've met many from here and they are top of the line.
=-//----> I'm thinking this is what the Ministry is setting up but won't tell because of the back lash at first and the outrage etc. Too hard for hunters of old to handle, the newbies will just accept it as a new digital world and a game to play and win a tag whoa man !
Jel -- this is what you will see in two years or so, LEH Mule Reg 3 LEH Only! -- mark my words
For God sakes Jelly, your one of the good ones, stop drinking and typing on this site!! Region 3 has the healthiest overall mule deer numbers in the province, yet they have the most liberal seasons, so do you really think hunting regs are affecting the populations?? Have they done any aerial surveys etc that indicate there's a low buck:doe ratio??? EVERYONE NEEDS TO GET IT IN THEIR HEADS: ADULT FEMALE SURVIVAL AND JUVENILE SURVIVAL IS WHAT CONTROLS POPULATIONS! We know it's hard to get seasons back once they go to LEH, so please stop spewing nonsense...now I have heard there's a problem with wolves in the north of region 3, so that would be a problem, and the one thing I don't like for the south of region 3 is they give out a lot of LEH doe tags, like 180 in 3-12 and 195 in region 3-13, that I think is a little much, but still, from my observations, the mule deer are healthy in these areas and in other areas of region 3, so LEH for all I think is insane...

[HarryToolips]

LEH is the future of all by what I see going on, the mule deer leh I suggest for our Ministry to follow goes like this.
----- Make it all leh for antlered and antlerless, no counting tines and all that, if you got an leh antlered, and you see a mule with tine go for it and also for antlerless same type of thing.
----- Make it a fun leh for mules in Region 3
----- help make leh group application for mules for a hunting party -- not just single aps.
----- help to set leh up for hunting party's of four down to two members.
----- if party wins, both or all four get a relevant mule leh tag. This wood be more fiscal for hunters.
----- The Ministry sets leh mule in Reg 3 for financial use also the income from applications for these wanted tags would be welcomed and used to apply protection of mules in Region 3 itself.
----- LEH mules by leh only in Reg 3 would increase the Ministry's income by applications alone.
----- We owe it to ourselves as muley hunters in reg 3 to obey the Ministry at all times.
Jel -- let's be honest and work with our Ministry together to enhance our reg 3 mule deer habitat.
Or, how about we keep our open seasons, so every one is buying tags and all that $$$ is now going back into wildlife, and we apply it to aerial counts, predator control, habitat restoration projects etc and do what's right for wildlife like science has taught us, rather than doing what makes us feel good and think we're making a difference by managing hunters...I like equal opportunity for all, how's that sound??

[whitlers]

From my own experience I have always seen a healthy population of deer in region 3 but I am no expert of course.

[Fisher-Dude]

Only that hunter pressure has nearly doubled in "recent" years.

Hunter pressure doesn't matter.

Sex ratios and fawn recruitment matter.

If they don't tell you what those are, then you have zero info to make an informed decision.

Hunter pressure is a social issue and has nothing to do with conservation or game management.

[Bugle M In]

On a side note here....
Anyone receive a "Return Envelope" inside??
You know... the pre-paid one....

Ya....I didn't think so!!
Is this "their way" of telling me to do it online??
Guess if there's no return envelope, no need to fill it out!!

[Bugle M In]

I'm trying to say we need to lengthen seasons in 5 and 8 to match that of 3. As it could reduce the early and late season pressure.

Exactly....
And as another posted, since R5 was closed between Nov 10th-20th, I would say the amount of hunters in Reg 3
tripled....not just doubled.

[HarryToolips]

^^^hey with our increased funding, and they did some aerial surveys to show that the populations in r5 and r8 can support it, I would think it would be a great idea..

[boxhitch]

Sounds like reg 3 hunters are putting pressure on the Ministry for a better quality hunt, maybe looking to wall out the foreign interlopers from 8 and 5.
Nothing to do with growing more deer

[mike-juliet]

No survey in my mailbox yet. Any chance of anyone uploading the one they received? I'd like to see whats contained in the survey

[Jelvis]

-----------------------------------------> OBEY the Ministry <-----------------------------------------

-- Do as told, don't rebel and bee bold. The Ministry has a major history of facts and figures from sway back to Telegraph Crick, don't be a dick.

-- Jelly ( Ray ) Shiras -- you can tell the world region 3 never came unfurled
You can burn my close up when I'm gone
You can tell your friends what a fool i've bin and larf and joke about me - on your phone
You can tell my arms to go back to the farms
You can tell my feet to hit the floor
You can tell my lips to tell my finger tips the regular muley season is gone.
Butt don't tell my heart my akey breaky heart I just don't tinks he'll understand
And if you tell these parts their closing down the bucks
It just might blow up ----- and kill this man.
Don't tell my heart.

[ve7iuq]

The worst part of the questionere sent to hunters is that they have never asked the simple question, "How many (wt deer/mu deer /moose/etc.) did you see!
They would get so much more information than just, "did you shoot a ---.)

[walks with deer]

I have seen 15 road kill this last week that takes a toll was the grass first greens up we should be pushing for more speeding inforcment in critical spots.

[Trojans16]

Received one as well. I hunt and spend time in several different MU's in region 3 and you'd be hard pressed to not see Mulie's on any given day. Hopefully this doesn't lead to decreased hunter opportunity.

[wos]

I got my survey today I'm glad they left the back sides of 2 and 1/2 pages blank so we as a group can tell them what we really think, not what they are expecting to hear. It's time to air our laundry and fill the blank spots with genuine hand written letters telling them what you really think should be done to improve mule deer habitat and reduce pressure from the region.

[J_T]

In the spirit of collaboration and stakeholder engagement, I'm confused this is a mail out to specifically targeted local hunters. If I understand correctly. Seems an online poll/questionaire would reach more users.

[boxhitch]

Its a random survey, sent out to a sampling of anyone that reported hunting in reg 3, which numbered ~15,000 last season.

[Jelvis]

-- Region 3 is very popular place to hunt for deer hunters. The Region 3 centered out of Kamloops for an example has top of the world class mule deer habitat. The topography is made for mules and the mules are made for the topography. No need to go to Colorado or New Mexico just hit Reg 3 in B.C.
-- Anyone who grew up in the Lower Strangeland and hunted the beauty blacktail in their habitat, the west coast rain forest, and comes up to Reg 3 in the Kamloops area and sees the grasslands and the semi-open ridges and hills are amazed at the total picture.
Kamloops has mule deer no doubt about that.
-- Personally I believe thee populations of mule deer need to be thinned close to Kamloops.
Some deer are very healthy looking and some look shabby and real thin hips and gaunt.
Could be age also, some old females get grey and thin. I've seen over twenty deer in an hour by Black Pines alone on one scout out. Two weeks ago I saw so many I quit counting, literally bunches, in groups four up to ten together, at least four major deer family's.
-- It's difficult to imagine, these deer can migrate from Bonaparte Lake to Kamloops Lake in herds and then go back after winter.
This is another issue when dealing with mules, they travel over moocho terrain in their short lives.
Jelly Ray -- we will work 2 gedder from the Vedder in Sardis to the clear water of Little Fort.
-- you can tell my eyes to watch out for my mind, it just might be walking out on me today.
Butt don't tell my muley heart cuz I ate some deer chilly and I gotta fart!

[J_T]

No question, when regulations change, hunters find a way to maximize their personal opportunity. IE, hunt a different region. This isn't a bad thing hunting in new areas, but it can be problematic as previously stated. I'm a fan of micro managing our wildlife, but I understand micro seasons/opportunities is complex.

And, I completely 'get' we need more wildlife and then we won't be as concerned about regulatory seasons. I understand regulation changes are not the route to more wildlife.

Having qualified the above, it seems to me there is room to create alignments in the regulation that might resolve some of the concerns.

R3 enjoys a 4pt season until Dec 10. R4, 5, 8, seasons close earlier.
R4 has a 4Pt season to Nov 10
R5 has a 4pt season to Nov 10 and Nov 30, with a bow season to Dec 10
R8 has a 4pt season to Nov 10 and a bow season Nov 25 - Dec 10

Might make some sense to have all rifle seasons cease on Nov 10 and have a late season Bow only Mule Deer (4pt) Nov 25 - Dec 10.

Just saying.

[boxhitch]

Buck/Doe ratios in lots of MUs show a later gos 4 pt would be sustainable. No need for implement restrictions

[HarryToolips]

^^^^there you go.......

[HarryToolips]

-- Region 3 is very popular place to hunt for deer hunters. The Region 3 centered out of Kamloops for an example has top of the world class mule deer habitat. The topography is made for mules and the mules are made for the topography. No need to go to Colorado or New Mexico just hit Reg 3 in B.C.
-- Anyone who grew up in the Lower Strangeland and hunted the beauty blacktail in their habitat, the west coast rain forest, and comes up to Reg 3 in the Kamloops area and sees the grasslands and the semi-open ridges and hills are amazed at the total picture.
Kamloops has mule deer no doubt about that.
-- Personally I believe thee populations of mule deer need to be thinned close to Kamloops.
Some deer are very healthy looking and some look shabby and real thin hips and gaunt.
Could be age also, some old females get grey and thin. I've seen over twenty deer in an hour by Black Pines alone on one scout out. Two weeks ago I saw so many I quit counting, literally bunches, in groups four up to ten together, at least four major deer family's.
-- It's difficult to imagine, these deer can migrate from Bonaparte Lake to Kamloops Lake in herds and then go back after winter.
This is another issue when dealing with mules, they travel over moocho terrain in their short lives.
Jelly Ray -- we will work 2 gedder from the Vedder in Sardis to the clear water of Little Fort.
-- you can tell my eyes to watch out for my mind, it just might be leaving me today hay.
Butt don't tell my muley heart cuz I ate some deer chilly and I gotta fart!

Well that's good news Jelly...and it sounds like we don't need to put all muleys in reg3 to LEH then!!

[Fisher-Dude]

No question, when regulations change, hunters find a way to maximize their personal opportunity. IE, hunt a different region. This isn't a bad thing hunting in new areas, but it can be problematic as previously stated. I'm a fan of micro managing our wildlife, but I understand micro seasons/opportunities is complex.

And, I completely 'get' we need more wildlife and then we won't be as concerned about regulatory seasons. I understand regulation changes are not the route to more wildlife.

Having qualified the above, it seems to me there is room to create alignments in the regulation that might resolve some of the concerns.

R3 enjoys a 4pt season until Dec 10. R4, 5, 8, seasons close earlier.
R4 has a 4Pt season to Nov 10
R5 has a 4pt season to Nov 10 and Nov 30, with a bow season to Dec 10
R8 has a 4pt season to Nov 10 and a bow season Nov 25 - Dec 10

Might make some sense to have all rifle seasons cease on Nov 10 and have a late season Bow only Mule Deer (4pt) Nov 25 - Dec 10.

Just saying.

Might make more sense to leave the seasons as they are and look to expand them where feasible, since regulatory changes, by your own admission, won't change bugger all as far as wildlife populations are concerned.

I get it that you want to close others' opportunities so you can replace them with bow. But that's not what's best for the majority of hunters nor for wildlife.

If you want to hunt mule deer with your bow Nov 25 - Dec 10 in region 3, fill your boots, the season's in place for you to do it already. Just don't tell me I can't hunt at that same time with my tomahawk or my 416 magnum.

[Elkaholic]

Might make more sense to leave the seasons as they are and look to expand them where feasible, since regulatory changes, by your own admission, won't change bugger all as far as wildlife populations are concerned.

I get it that you want to close others' opportunities so you can replace them with bow. But that's not what's best for the majority of hunters nor for wildlife.

If you want to hunt mule deer with your bow Nov 25 - Dec 10 in region 3, fill your boots, the season's in place for you to do it already. Just don't tell me I can't hunt at that same time with my tomahawk or my 416 magnum.

You have got to be the most anti any season but gun season person I have ever seen. Making it bow only does not reduce your opportunity or close out other peoples opportunities at all. Think about it you can still hunt, just with a bow, you choosing to not hunt that season is you closing your own door on opportunities. Take the blinders off. I for one could care less what they make the seasons with or what weapon I have to use. I will adapt and use them to my benefit, as we as hunters have for ages and continue my hunt and who knows might even have a new experience or two.

[Ryo]

If there was truly a need to cut hunter harvest back, there are less intrusive options, like moving the antlerless LEH from novemeber to September, and insuring there is a 10 day gap between it and 'any buck.' I don't imagine you'll see so many hunters harvesting both a buck and a doe in the same trip.

Don't get me wrong, a bigger picture approach is much preferable to micro-juggling this sort of thing. Things like land access, ranching practices (conscious predator management), co-existence with other ungulates, parks, logging, etc etc. should all be looked at to make other regions as successful as region 3.

[charlie_horse]

You have got to be the most anti any season but gun season person I have ever seen. Making it bow only does not reduce your opportunity or close out other peoples opportunities at all. Think about it you can still hunt, just with a bow, you choosing to not hunt that season is you closing your own door on opportunities. Take the blinders off. I for one could care less what they make the seasons with or what weapon I have to use. I will adapt and use them to my benefit, as we as hunters have for ages and continue my hunt and who knows might even have a new experience or two.

Well he's right. The seasons should be looked at to be expanded not restricted. JT even said that it won't fix a thing and he understands that as far as I'm concerned that he only would then suggest that to restrict the number of hunters, which is selfish. I'm young, I'll adapt with bow or whatever if needed. I just don't like bow hunting, pisses me off having guys pushing to shorten seasons for nothing. A person should be able to road hunt the Rut with their grandpa and hope they get lucky and see a 4 point at the tree line in a cut, where populations allow. The season is already there for you to go have a new experience, go enjoy it.

[Dannybuoy]

Buck/Doe ratios in lots of MUs show a later gos 4 pt would be sustainable. No need for implement restrictions
Buck/doe ratios mean squat if the populations are low , You need to go to one of those town hall meetings and listen . This way of thinking is part of the existing system that doesn't work , Jesse described it as "managing down to zero" and is one of the points that I agree with the BCWF on .

[boxhitch]

Buck/doe ratios mean squat if the populations are lowReeaalllyyy?! I think you missed some of the details. Hunting surplus bucks has nothing to do with fawns hitting the ground. More bucks won't make a doe more pregnant.
Conditions that preclude survival of juvenile or new offspring are what limit a population, not hunting bucks

[Dannybuoy]

Reeaalllyyy?! I think you missed some of the details. Hunting surplus bucks has nothing to do with fawns hitting the ground. More bucks won't make a doe more pregnant.
Conditions that preclude survival of juvenile or new offspring are what limit a population, not hunting
Nice try at a deflection ...I didn't miss anything.

[boxhitch]

No deflection, true to my points, not sure where you are going with this

[Dannybuoy]

No deflection, true to my points, not sure where you are going with this

Just saying that this idea that buck /doe ratio BS to manage wildlife numbers is part of the problem ... to zero wildlife . ie too few bucks ... open doe season .. too many bucks ... more liberal buck season ... until zero !
It was explained quite well by Jesse Z at the town hall meeting I attended .

[wos]

And this thread is living proof why we as hunters always will loose in a situation like this. They are looking at driving another wedge into another season of ours and sheeple in our own community start fighting among one another to try to benifit their own interests. In the end we will loose again. I've only been hunting since 1984 and in that short time I have only seen seasons changes that have made it more difficult for us to be successful and not a single season that affects me has been reinstated once it's gone. Once it's gone its gone for good. Once it's leh it's leh for good. Once it's 4 point it's for good Nov 10 closer for good. etc etc. None of this is helping game numbers we are being manipulated . It's time to start acting as a like minded group and start protecting our cherished hunting season or whatever we have left of it.

[boxhitch]

too few bucks ... open doe season .. too many bucks ... more liberal buck season ... until zero Good example there, of how not managing to a correct ratio can be a problem.
Do inventories show a declining population, Why are we hunting does in a declining population, Can the landscape carry more deer in the condition it is in, Are there too many cattle on deer range, all good questions
Lack of management dollars leaves gaps in data leading to poor decisions, or worse to lack of response to correct problems. Not sure that is the case in 3.

[boxhitch]

They are looking at driving another wedge into another season of ours No changes are planned, no need to start that fire
this is just a survey to judge hunter satisfaction

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Just saying that this idea that buck /doe ratio BS to manage wildlife numbers is part of the problem ... to zero wildlife . ie too few bucks ... open doe season .. too many bucks ... more liberal buck season ... until zero !
It was explained quite well by Jesse Z at the town hall meeting I attended .

You definitely missed something in the presentation. 'Managing to zero' means not dealing with the factors that drive wildlife populations. BC hunting Regulations for the most part just manage hunters...not wildlife. Just keep changing the regulations the way we have in the past 40 years and you will end up with zero. Change that trend by adding funding.....with funding comes the science....with good science and good funding you can deal with the drivers that affect wildlife populations.

SSS

[HarryToolips]

You definitely missed something in the presentation. 'Managing to zero' means not dealing with the factors that drive wildlife populations. BC hunting Regulations for the most part just manage hunters...not wildlife. Just keep changing the regulations the way we have in the past 40 years and you will end up with zero. Change that trend by adding funding.....with funding comes the science....with good science and good funding you can deal with the drivers that affect wildlife populations.

SSS
Bingo........

[HarryToolips]

And this thread is living proof why we as hunters always will loose in a situation like this. They are looking at driving another wedge into another season of ours and sheeple in our own community start fighting among one another to try to benifit their own interests. In the end we will loose again. I've only been hunting since 1984 and in that short time I have only seen seasons changes that have made it more difficult for us to be successful and not a single season that affects me has been reinstated once it's gone. Once it's gone its gone for good. Once it's leh it's leh for good. Once it's 4 point it's for good Nov 10 closer for good. etc etc. None of this is helping game numbers we are being manipulated . It's time to start acting as a like minded group and start protecting our cherished hunting season or whatever we have left of it.
Exactly....let's not take away from our hunting seasons, because as previously stated, doing that will not help our wildlife populations, in fact, with less seasons comes less hunter interest, which long term is less funding and thus bad for wildlife..as SSS said, with the funding we can manage with science and help make healthy, robust wildlife populations by promoting the real drivers of wildlife populations..

[one-shot-wonder]

For those who didn't receive a letter, they should email or call Ted Zimmerman, the Manager of Resource management in Kamloops. Bantering back and forth on here won't do any good. Let him know that a big picture approach to mule deer management is need and the knee jerk season tinkering is flaky at best.

[Jelvis]

LEH for mules wood help for some funding, make as many people who want to hunt mule deer in and around Kammy and who wood nt? The rest of Reg 3 leh as well, can the open seasons.
-- Each M.U. in reg 3 is studied individually, also use any data on mule deer that has been collected since it started, up to now.
-- Include a generous bow season in mule leh for the entire regions mu's.
-- Rifle wood b leh and each mu's picture wood b history of the Ministry's bio's on area within the mu
-- Group hunts for bow and rifle for 2,3, and 4 hunters in a group which applies as a group
-- Give the bio's and the Ministry the huge responsibility to set up the leh mule system
-- Each mu in region 3 wood be locally studied like as b4 and as now
-- Make the system a lottery and generate as much cash flow as possible on limited tags.
-- make it fun and exciting almost entertaining to apply for these sought after Region 3 mule tags.
-- you want to hunt Rocky Mountain Mule Deer in topography that will have your head spinning
your going to apply for leh and not now but right now!
-- Region 3 is accessible, close to get to, fast to drive to, then you slow down and get the hunting going for the leh your party got.
-- Bow and arrow hunters will have equal opportunity for all the same hunts as rifle so can apply.
Jelly -- moocho more but hey it's a start --

[Jelvis]

-- I have been noticing out of Kammy on the west side of the North Thompson river, mule deer that stay on farmers lands by the Westsyde road. These mules are and seem to stay in the no shooting zones along the river and above Westsyde road by the hundreds.
Black Pines is closed on the way up, Noble is and Jamieson for the first part so the mules adapt and stay down in the closed spots prolly all year round. Not migrating anymore.
Man has upset the balance with many many variables and now reversing these things will not happen, those ranches and hobby farms are worth big money now around Kamloops. Some person bought the land fifty years ago for pea nuts and now it's worth a pizza pie, if yah know whad i'm sayin.
Jel -- Roads, farms, logging, mining, back road motor cycling, quads, climate change, access, etc
Ski hills, ski resorts, roads to towers on hills, drones, man made fires, and on and on.

[HarryToolips]

LEH for mules wood help for some funding, make as many people who want to hunt mule deer in and around Kammy and who wood nt? The rest of Reg 3 leh as well, can the open seasons.
-- Each M.U. in reg 3 is studied individually, also use any data on mule deer that has been collected since it started, up to now.
-- Include a generous bow season in mule leh for the entire regions mu's.
-- Rifle wood b leh and each mu's picture wood b history of the Ministry's bio's on area within the mu
-- Group hunts for bow and rifle for 2,3, and 4 hunters in a group which applies as a group
-- Give the bio's and the Ministry the huge responsibility to set up the leh mule system
-- Each mu in region 3 wood be locally studied like as b4 and as now
-- Make the system a lottery and generate as much cash flow as possible on limited tags.
-- make it fun and exciting almost entertaining to apply for these sought after Region 3 mule tags.
-- you want to hunt Rocky Mountain Mule Deer in topography that will have your head spinning
your going to apply for leh and not now but right now!
-- Region 3 is accessible, close to get to, fast to drive to, then you slow down and get the hunting going for the leh your party got.
-- Bow and arrow hunters will have equal opportunity for all the same hunts as rifle so can apply.
Jelly -- moocho more but hey it's a start --
LEH for muleys would hinder funding, x amount of people submitting $7 each for a draw, vs. everybody having the opportunity to hunt them, and everybody buying $15 tags....hmmm.....one of your last threads you were trying to help new hunters out etc, and giving detailed explanations of MU's within reg 3, now your saying it should all go to LEH??

[Wild one]

Exactly....let's not take away from our hunting seasons, because as previously stated, doing that will not help our wildlife populations, in fact, with less seasons comes less hunter interest, which long term is less funding and thus bad for wildlife..as SSS said, with the funding we can manage with science and help make healthy, robust wildlife populations by promoting the real drivers of wildlife populations..


Changes to hunting seasons would have little impact to overall mule deer population yes. They do have the ability to affect the quality of the hunt and ratios in my opinion. Habitat is about population

I would say changes could be made with little impact to hunters loosing interest or lose of funding. There is a large portion of hunters that have little to no interest in 4pt seasons. But if you impact any buck that would be an issue

Lots of different options when it comes to managing hunting seasons and goals regarding population make up. Tons of places in North America with different management goals/styles and hunters still get out

it comes down to what one wants to see. Hunters fear change and BC hunters seem to fear it most.

[boxhitch]

..............Change that trend by adding funding.....with funding comes the science....with good science and good funding you can deal with the drivers that affect wildlife populations.....SSSNeed to add the most important step, the will from above. Regional staff have knowledge and ideas and wish lists but in lots of cases they can't get anything done on the ground due to pitfalls and constraints. When bureaucrats want something done it gets done. This new wildlife agency should be the answer

[Weatherby Fan]

-- I have been noticing out of Kammy on the west side of the North Thompson river, mule deer that stay on farmers lands by the Westsyde road. These mules are and seem to stay in the no shooting zones along the river and above Westsyde road by the hundreds.
Black Pines is closed on the way up, Noble is and Jamieson for the first part so the mules adapt and stay down in the closed spots prolly all year round. Not migrating anymore.
Man has upset the balance with many many variables and now reversing these things will not happen, those ranches and hobby farms are worth big money now around Kamloops. Some person bought the land fifty years ago for pea nuts and now it's worth a pizza pie, if yah know whad i'm sayin.
Jel -- Roads, farms, logging, mining, back road motor cycling, quads, climate change, access, etc
Ski hills, ski resorts, roads to towers on hills, drones, man made fires, and on and on.

Im thinking of a few areas like that jelly and my observation is lots of feed, wide open to see any dangers and predator free because of the close proximity to humans and the doe's are adapting to this way of life.

[Bugle M In]

They don't need 20 questions etc to ask if the season should stay open or leh.
1 or the other.
than an open paragraph to tell them what we think....
which seems to be to open up reg 5 and 8 to the same times....period.

Oh, and where is the return envelope!!

[Fisher-Dude]

Nice try at a deflection ...I didn't miss anything.

I think you did.

You missed the whole point of the presentation, if that's your takeaway.

[ajr5406]

Instead of tampering with the hunting seasons, why not increase the costs of tags and put that money back into conservation to address the actual issues. In the US they have a levy on hunting and fishing related purchases which goes directly back into conservation, why not do that here.

And why not significantly increase the licences and tags for NON-resident hunters?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Changes to hunting seasons would have little impact to overall mule deer population yes. They do have the ability to affect the quality of the hunt and ratios in my opinion. Habitat is about population

I would say changes could be made with little impact to hunters loosing interest or lose of funding. There is a large portion of hunters that have little to no interest in 4pt seasons. But if you impact any buck that would be an issue

Lots of different options when it comes to managing hunting seasons and goals regarding population make up. Tons of places in North America with different management goals/styles and hunters still get out

it comes down to what one wants to see. Hunters fear change and BC hunters seem to fear it most.

If we are below the minimum buck to doe ratios, by all means, change the seasons. If we aren't, then there is no need to change things.
Since the majority of the mule deer bucks are shot during the any buck season, the best way would be to shorten that part of the season.

SSS

[boxhitch]

In the US they have a levy on hunting and fishing related purchases which goes directly back into conservation, why not do that here.The Pitman-Robertson Act, dating to 1937 if you can believe that.

But why stop there. All outdoor recreation uses the same turf as hunters and anglers. Bikers, watchers, paddlers, sliders, all leave a footprint

some insight
@ ASLA.org outdoor recreation economy report
knock a couple of zeros off for Canadian equivalent

[Dannybuoy]

I think you did.

You missed the whole point of the presentation, if that's your takeaway.

There were a few points in the presentation .... and I believe I have a good understanding of what was said .
SSS says it very well in post #51 , this is what they have been doing .... when the buck /doe ratio is low - more LEH on does to get the right ratio .... regardless of population . repeat until zero . Not specific to deer or region 3
While buck/doe ratio's can play a role in determining harvest ... at the moment its pretty much a useless tool without knowing all the other factors ... ie overall pop, habitat , etc .
Tell me I got that wrong ...

[Dannybuoy]

If we are below the minimum buck to doe ratios, by all means, change the seasons. If we aren't, then there is no need to change things.
Since the majority of the mule deer bucks are shot during the any buck season, the best way would be to shorten that part of the season.

SSS
This is the existing way of management that the BCWF is trying to change .... I don't know how you can get it right in your previous post (#51) and then flip right back to this ?

[boxhitch]

more LEH on does to get the right ratioIf , IF that was the reason for doe leh it could be a problem. Check out why female harvests of any species is allowed.

[Dannybuoy]

If , IF that was the reason for doe leh it could be a problem. Check out why female harvests of any species is allowed.

No If's I am going by what was said at the Town hall meeting ... You go tell him /them they are wrong I agree that IS what has been going on .

[Fisher-Dude]

There were a few points in the presentation .... and I believe I have a good understanding of what was said .
SSS says it very well in post #51 , this is what they have been doing .... when the buck /doe ratio is low - more LEH on does to get the right ratio .... regardless of population . repeat until zero . Not specific to deer or region 3
While buck/doe ratio's can play a role in determining harvest ... at the moment its pretty much a useless tool without knowing all the other factors ... ie overall pop, habitat , etc .
Tell me I got that wrong ...

You got that wrong.

Perhaps someone in the audience said that.

There was nothing in the presentation that suggested using antlerless harvest to restore sex ratios.

[Wild one]

If we are below the minimum buck to doe ratios, by all means, change the seasons. If we aren't, then there is no need to change things.
Since the majority of the mule deer bucks are shot during the any buck season, the best way would be to shorten that part of the season.

SSS

No need to change seasons in attempt to increase population.

4pt season is the management tool I don't care for at all. Promotes poor genetics and than add the issue of under size bucks shot and left. This was an issue last year in 3 32 to the point it was reported on

Other than days in the field for hunters what positives come from 4pt? Deer are not benefiting from it

like I said multiple options depends on the goal in mind.

[Steelpulse]

Well I may as well chime in, i have been hunting the Kamloops area for 7 years now and the deer numbers in my opinion are great, we always get a nice 4pt except this year I missed a toad buck which ill be back for this season, usually out there in a day we will see lots of does lots of spikes 2s and 3s sometimes 100 deer so I don't think there are too many tags, for leh doe because it seems there are tons, there are roads on gstone where you can drive during the fall and see 50 does standing beside the car easy.

i am also hunting region 8 with the rut closures which is also fine with me, I still feel we have the most insane seasons here for hunting to give just about anyone an opportunity to hunt any specie, even if leh mule deer happened I'm sure would be 99%-100% success in drawing and just use for more income

i am however in favour of making trophy management areas where it is leh mule deer for big bucks, not that you can't find big mulies anywhere in bc I think it would be fun to apply for a hunt in a region where you know you and few others have the tags to hunt the deer that are potentially massive, again that is all of bc you just need to find the big ones but that's just a side thought with the trophy management areas

i think reg 3 is an amazing place and I don't think the govt is conspiring to make it all leh that would be quite durastic, and all who say the pressure is insane in reg 3 I have never idea what your talking about in the past 7 years the only busy time is opening buck season, we are hard pressed to find others in the woods most of the time and have never been hassled or bothered by the amount of lowermainlanders up there, and we spend a ton of time in the bush. There's lots of space and deer for everyone you just have to get out there and hunt

[HarryToolips]

Great to hear steelpulse.....

[Jelvis]

In my plan of all leh for muley in 3, the Ministry again uses this fine mule deer region to establish a draw like I was saying. A fun up to date data base on line. Show picture of a stud mule buck and a doe standing together on a semi-open Kamloops ridge to cause intere$t and want.
Also the prices go up for application to apply for these super duper mule deer hunts.
These mule deer live here in reg 3 that's why the Ministry uses the area and the venison to receive it's due $hare. Hunters $hould be happy to support their Ministry who is managing all of our wildlife.
Also I would set up a donation system for those who wood love to support the Ministry this way.
Jel -- Anything is possible if we all pull and push togedder.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

No need to change seasons in attempt to increase population.

4pt season is the management tool I don't care for at all. Promotes poor genetics and than add the issue of under size bucks shot and left. This was an issue last year in 3 32 to the point it was reported on

Other than days in the field for hunters what positives come from 4pt? Deer are not benefiting from it

like I said multiple options depends on the goal in mind.

Feel the same here. I said 'change' (ie. 'shorten') the any buck season(if needed)...not eliminate it.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

There were a few points in the presentation .... and I believe I have a good understanding of what was said .
SSS says it very well in post #51 , this is what they have been doing .... when the buck /doe ratio is low - more LEH on does to get the right ratio .... regardless of population . repeat until zero . Not specific to deer or region 3
While buck/doe ratio's can play a role in determining harvest ... at the moment its pretty much a useless tool without knowing all the other factors ... ie overall pop, habitat , etc .
Tell me I got that wrong ...


This is the existing way of management that the BCWF is trying to change .... I don't know how you can get it right in your previous post (#51) and then flip right back to this ?

We still have an obligation to stay above the minimum buck to doe and bull to cow ratios here in BC. That won't change regardless if we can fix the system that is broken. If we are below the minimum ratios then restrict the seasons..if we meet or exceed the ratios then leave the seasons or possibly lessen the restrictions where possible.

Fixing the big picture shouldn't change that.

[boxhitch]

D, You can't just pick out one detail from the whole picture.

The presentation was about how the current action of playing and juggling hunting seasons does nothing to put more critters on the ground.
'Managing to zero' is the focus on hunter opportunity and regulation, all while the population numbers keep declining,
Managing people is insignificant and pointless when compared to doing what is needed to truly actually increase a species number.

[Wild one]

Feel the same here. I said 'change' (ie. 'shorten') the any buck season(if needed)...not eliminate it.

Any buck season I personally view as what drives most mule deer hunters in BC so I would say don't touch it unless it is a must. Personally believe BC overall could benefit if BC changed how it went about managing mule deer hunting opurtunity.

big one I would like to see is the prov mule deer limit as one buck one doe(LEH doe). This does not effect hunting days in the field or restricting age class choice. I experienced in other areas when there is a 1 buck prov limit it does cause a portion of hunters to be more selective that would normally burn their first tag on any buck than switch regions and hold out with their next tag.

It seems to promote a higher buck ratio well slightly increasing % of mature bucks

would like to see 4pt season gone myself and believe it is very possible but would still come at a cost of days in the field or restrictions like archery.

Like I stated earlier there is lots of options but what is the goal and what hunters want to see is the issue

[Dannybuoy]

D, You can't just pick out one detail from the whole picture.

The presentation was about how the current action of playing and juggling hunting seasons does nothing to put more critters on the ground.
'Managing to zero' is the focus on hunter opportunity and regulation, all while the population numbers keep declining,
Managing people is insignificant and pointless when compared to doing what is needed to truly actually increase a species number.

That's how I saw it as well .

[BTF]

I have been reading over these comments as i received the survey as well. I normally hunt REG 8 and am OK with the season as it is for the most part. I usually hunt the 4 point season (less hunters out there) and if I get skunked I concentrate on a meat buck during the late bow season. Interesting reading Steelpulse's comment. It reminded me of when REG 8-3 in the Ashnola was 4 point only from Sept 10 to Oct 31 and that was it, it was considered a trophy area. I saw more bucks in those years than does. Some times you would see groups of 12 or more from spikes to non typical too many to count points. We would be hunting sheep and watch a couple of 4x4s off to the side for entertainment. Go shed hunting- you could pick up more massive sheds then you could carry, I have many. When they harmonized this area to the rest of REG 8 years ago the population seemed to vanish and the big boys seemed to be few and far between. The winter shed hunting grounds dried up. A certain group also helped with the population demise as well though.

So I guess is what I'm saying is in that area the 4 point limited season seemed to work and had a healthy population of bucks with no degenerating effect on genetics. I always saw massive 4-5-7 point bucks if you knew where and when to look, some times it was just the case of going in the rut (off season) just to see what was out there. But then again that was then and this is now, things change.

[Gamebuster]

For those who didn't receive a letter, they should email or call Ted Zimmerman, the Manager of Resource management in Kamloops. Bantering back and forth on here won't do any good. Let him know that a big picture approach to mule deer management is need and the knee jerk season tinkering is flaky at best.

Knee jerk season tinkering? Where is that occurring? And having regions adjacent to 3 extending their seasons a little bit (big picture thinking) to distribute pressure..is that knee jerk and flaky?

[one-shot-wonder]

I haven't seen the survey but it sounds like season tinkering is being considered and potentially used instead of dealing with the real issues and thinking big picture. An overall mule deer management plan needs to be actioned for the Southern Interior. The focus needs to be on more funding, ecosystem restoration and growing the resource.
Regions 4,5 and 8 are just as guilty in passed years/decades... Restrictions imposed on hunters and yet the mule deer declines continue to ebb along....

[Bugle M In]

Another issue, is not when the seasons are, or what the restrictions are etc.
The biggest change I see in all the regions is, the amount of logging that has happened.
All in the name of beetle kill, and the race to cut every tree down before it is hit by the beetle.
That along with the ever increasing wolves, are probably, in my opinion, the 2 main things that have
changed out there.
I have hunted a long time out there now, and those are the factors that are so obviously different from
years ago.
Even lakes, Roche Lake as an example, was impacted from the beetle kill and the extensive logging in the area.
Just an example of the impact this has had.
Not trying to put people down who are in the industry, it's not their fault, but, it has had an impact.
Some is good, but too much, is not.

That the ministry is considering playing around with the seasons yet again, makes me mad.
It's been shown that time after time...it does not work.
So you have to ask yourself...."what else has changed"?

It's not hard to see, and they need to change, not us.
As stated, now they are (logging) going into the main winter ranges to log that out....
It's just my opinion, but I think it is going to get worse all around.

[horshur]

Hunter pressure doesn't matter.

Sex ratios and fawn recruitment matter.

If they don't tell you what those are, then you have zero info to make an informed decision.

Hunter pressure is a social issue and has nothing to do with conservation or game management.

I think this is the real issue..we had it too good for a number of years things are more normal now and people are bitching...There are a few outlying areas that took a hit winterkill, predation, forest encroachment, longer winters but the majority of region 3 is still very productive but maybe not so good for larger bucks( be honest a stinky dink 4 point 99.8 % of time) with the increased pressure. This is mostly an "Ego" issue.

[Bugle M In]

So far, in Region 3 where I hunt, I can honestly say I can take a 4 point, in 4 point season, every year.
It's very doable.
What is hard, is to find a "trophy sized" buck, which was easier years ago, in that same area.
They are still there, but, I would have to say it is harder.
And as stated, I have noticed a "dramatic" increase in hunter #'s in this area, right when Reg 5 is closed!
I noticed it "right away", the 1st year it happened!
As soon as R5 opens, things go back to normal, as it was for years.
Open up 5, and you take that extra pressure of R3, especially in the areas close to R5.

As for 4 point restriction, does it really work??.....I don't think it does.
Same as 6pt restriction for elk in EK.....it hasn't helped.

As far as I am concerned, it has only put "more pressure" on "trophy sized" game.
I would take a 3 pt elk, if it crossed my path, but no, I have to chase down a 6pt, and usually the
"herd bull", which I think is deserving to be the "real breeding stock".

Ministry has got it all backwards if yo ask me.
How many would take a 2 or 3 point, when it is usually 4 pt restriction time, if it were open??
How many more 4 pt would not be taken, because someone already "tagged out" on a 3 pt??

[boxhitch]

I haven't seen the survey but it sounds like season tinkering is being considered and potentially used instead of dealing with the real issues and thinking big picture.You would be wrong

An overall mule deer management plan needs to be actioned for the Southern Interior.you would be right


That the ministry is considering playing around with the seasons yet again, makes me madReg 3 has no plans of changing seasons at all, most due to no apparent reason.

As said, the survey is about hunter satisfaction, and no doubt info will be shared with other offices to maybe try and build a consensus and/or maybe more harmonization

[2chodi]

I haven't seen the survey but it sounds like season tinkering is being considered and potentially used instead of dealing with the real issues and thinking big picture. An overall mule deer management plan needs to be actioned for the Southern Interior. The focus needs to be on more funding, ecosystem restoration and growing the resource.
Regions 4,5 and 8 are just as guilty in passed years/decades... Restrictions imposed on hunters and yet the mule deer declines continue to ebb along....

You've got it. Question 18 of the survey gives the opportunity to choose this option.

[boxhitch]

Mule deer habitat, the rights and wrongs and fixes, is a whole other topic, that would make an interesting thread of itself. Fire it up.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Does anyone have any recent buck:doe ratios from region 3?
Are there any issues?

[Dannybuoy]

Does anyone have any recent buck:doe ratios from region 3?
Are there any issues?

I think we covered the irrelevance of that statistic on its own .

[HarryToolips]

I think we covered the irrelevance of that statistic on its own .
You got it wrong again dude...he wants to know if there has been any surveys done recently, showing buck:doe ratios below the provincial minimum - if the ratios are below the minimum, then hunting may be having an impact on the overall populations, if not, it's the other primary drivers that are the concern..

[Jelvis]

-- With Reg 3 for me and the many hunters in Kammy know it's more about food supply for mule deer and habitat for hiding in. Say for instance a farmer has 30 acres of prime fertile grassland and has a herd to eat it. Now the farmer has to know how many cattle he can have on that 30 acres to maintain the grass from being eaten by too many cows. Then nothing for any and they all die.
So farmer John says, I can have one cow per acre to have a sustainable crop and herd.
So he stays as close to 30 as he can.
-- just an easy example
The herds need food, too many animals eat food and get starving, interbreeding, not migrating and so on.
Buck doe ratio for proper felatio is 10 % (mature bucks) studs, able to do the twirl.
-- Remember this important fact -- mule deer does have a single fawn usually first birth, then after if good food available will have twins after until it get's to be old.
So first year mule does will have a single baby first time. Normally.
-- Mature doe, twins when in healthy habitat.
Jelly ( Cage ) MMA --- Muley Mayhem Absolutely ---

[Dannybuoy]

You got it wrong again dude...he wants to know if there has been any surveys done recently, showing buck:doe ratios below the provincial minimum - if the ratios are below the minimum, then hunting may be having an impact on the overall populations, if not, it's the other primary drivers that are the concern..

If that's your story ...
This thread is just going in circles .... over and out .

[boxhitch]

Does anyone have any recent buck:doe ratios from region 3?
Are there any issues?Other than a couple of small localized less-than-ideal spots, things are good. Some areas reported to be 40/100
Problem spots seem to be near wolf haunts, maybe its the water
Problem spots to be looked at again this fall hopefully to gauge fawn recruitment

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I think we covered the irrelevance of that statistic on its own .

Even if the ratios are lower than the provincial target, they are most likely not affecting the population of mule deer. The other reasons that we manage to a minimum of 20:100 are social reasons...hunter satisfaction and wildlife viewing.

[boxhitch]

remembering that in BC for most species the target management ratios are more than double of what science says is the minimum to get the job done.
Conservative and all around better conditions

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Other than a couple of small localized less-than-ideal spots, things are good. Some areas reported to be 40/100
Problem spots seem to be near wolf haunts, maybe its the water
Problem spots to be looked at again this fall hopefully to gauge fawn recruitment

So the survey is purely for social reasons? Interesting

[boxhitch]

I kinda questioned it when I first heard of it, but its an exercise to gauge hunters on a larger scale than just the ones that make their voices heard.
Likely to be viable for more than just the local office.

[the bear]

Access, Access, Access, road closures would be the most effective way to increase all buck numbers

[Wild one]

Access, Access, Access, road closures would be the most effective way to increase all buck numbers

I would agree and disagree

it would increase in areas with closures but it would also increase pressure on areas with access having the opposite effect there.

one hunter management trick I have experienced with WT is leaving some MUs as archery only for the first 2 months of the season than rifle for the last month of the season. A portion of the surrounding MUs still opened early for rifle.

The Mus with the more restrictive season seemed to hold higher % of bucks and a great late season hunt. Also seemed some of the surplus bucks from these Mus spread into surounding MUs. I definitely noticed the best hunting in the MUs that had the early season were closer to the border of the MUs with the restrictive season.

Tons of options that can keep yearly hunter opurtunity and reasonable access

Road closures would not be a bad idea but still need to keep reasonible access to spread pressure

[Jelvis]

It's expensive to keep up, but I like seeing migrating routes for mules by Kammy to Lil Fort.
Some come from Bonaparte Lake,
1. Plant some devices on different herds and see where and why they go where they go and why they choose it. ie -- terrain and access, predator hang outs, pressures of life, food available etc etc
2. manage each unit in reg 3 for mules with individual goal or two over a planned time.
3. Carry on with Skull Mountain plan which the Ministry developed many moons ago
Kamloops is noted for having thee top staff over many years for wildlife mangement. C.O.s r edumickated. Seriously these men and women are cool.
Jelly in dah centre of dah mule deer habby tats. Seeing deer already.

[Fisher-Dude]

I would agree and disagree

it would increase in areas with closures but it would also increase pressure on areas with access having the opposite effect there.

one hunter management trick I have experienced with WT is leaving some MUs as archery only for the first 2 months of the season than rifle for the last month of the season. A portion of the surrounding MUs still opened early for rifle.

The Mus with the more restrictive season seemed to hold higher % of bucks and a great late season hunt. Also seemed some of the surplus bucks from these Mus spread into surounding MUs. I definitely noticed the best hunting in the MUs that had the early season were closer to the border of the MUs with the restrictive season.

Tons of options that can keep yearly hunter opurtunity and reasonable access

Road closures would not be a bad idea but still need to keep reasonible access to spread pressure


That has nothing to do with conservation or wildlife management.

What you're promoting is social management, and that's where we make all the wrong decisions on what's best for wildlife.

[Wild one]

That has nothing to do with conservation or wildlife management.

What you're promoting is social management, and that's where we make all the wrong decisions on what's best for wildlife.

Agree nothing to do with population growth

This is merely managing hunt quality an opurtunity

[Wild one]

Changes to managing bucks in BC has little to do with population

it is about what hunters want to see for hunting opurtunity nothing more

[Jelvis]

The Ministry has to be in control of BC's outdoors. All of it, skiing, fishing, hunting, camping spots etc and on and onnn

-- individual groups on the side can talk with the Ministry if they set up an appointment
-- Ministry sends out stuff, fill it out and buy an envelope and stamp and send it off
-- Ministry staff, bio's and c o's will be the ones who deal with wildlife and fish too and trapping
-- Try to obey all rules and regs, if you make a mistake, own up to it, instead of hiding etc.
-- Ministry should set up a donation address for people who want the money go to help reg 3 mule deer.
-- Just some qwicky's
Jel in dah Loopy Town

[Caribou_lou]

Changes to managing bucks in BC has little to do with population

it is about what hunters want to see for hunting opurtunity nothing more

So it's about what hunters want? Well just in this thread alone we have a variety of wants for what hunters would like to see.

-Total LEH
-Trophy management areas
-Shortened any Buck season
-No changes

What will they really gather from this? Are they sending the survey out to hunters that live out of the region? I harvested a good 4 point in region 3 this fall and never received a survey.

[Wild one]

So it's about what hunters want? Well just in this thread alone we have a variety of wants for what hunters would like to see.

-Total LEH
-Trophy management areas
-Shortened any Buck season
-No changes

What will they really gather from this? Are they sending the survey out to hunters that live out of the region? I harvested a good 4 point in region 3 this fall and never received a survey.


No matter what is put forth season wise not all hunters will agree. I can only speak for what I would like to see and know many would not agree with my views

I don't see a need for change my self but only see change justified if the goal is to improve hunt quality

[Bugle M In]

QUESTION 19, SCENERIO 3

that one bother's me.
I really don't like any of that, and yet, I have to check one of those.
That is the issue I have. and that I have not other choice.
So then what...later they tell us that is what we

[Caribou_lou]

No matter what is put forth season wise not all hunters will agree. I can only speak for what I would like to see and know many would not agree with my views

I don't see a need for change my self but only see change justified if the goal is to improve hunt quality

Define hunt quality. It's meaning is different to every hunter. How many hunters are out October 1st for any buck and shoot the first one they see. Just to fill the freezer. Lots of hunters out there will hold out for a big mature buck. I do that myself but if my freezer is low I'm not slow to pull the trigger.

I feel guys that are wanting trophy areas with LEH draws are just being... (I know I'll catch grief for this one!) Just Being lazy! Guys are out taking huge bucks every season, year after year, with the season as is. They didn't just stumble on these areas where they harvest these big mature deer. They put the boot leather on and set trail cameras out and invested many, many hours! And often pass up many respectable deer through the season. Guys that harvest big bucks. More often then not. Work their ass off for them!

[Wild one]

Define hunt quality. It's meaning is different to every hunter. How many hunters are out October 1st for any buck and shoot the first one they see. Just to fill the freezer. Lots of hunters out there will hold out for a big mature buck. I do that myself but if my freezer is low I'm not slow to pull the trigger.

I feel guys that are wanting trophy areas with LEH draws are just being... (I know I'll catch grief for this one!) Just Being lazy! Guys are out taking huge bucks every season, year after year, with the season as is. They didn't just stumble on these areas where they harvest these big mature deer. They put the boot leather on and set trail cameras out and invested many, many hours! And often pass up many respectable deer through the season. Guys that harvest big bucks. More often then not. Work their ass off for them!


Not in support of LEH or point restrictions

myself I would like to see thing managed for higher buck ratio which in my opinion can benefit both styles of hunter

only true restriction I would like to see put in place in BC is a 1 mule deer buck prov bag limit. Personally hate the use of 4pt season and reasons I posted in this thread. Would much rather see it replaced with a different style of restriction that did not involve age class and had limited impact on hunting days

[Mulehahn]

So it's about what hunters want? Well just in this thread alone we have a variety of wants for what hunters would like to see.

-Total LEH
-Trophy management areas
-Shortened any Buck season
-No changes

What will they really gather from this? Are they sending the survey out to hunters that live out of the region? I harvested a good 4 point in region 3 this fall and never received a survey.

I disagree. I think all hunters agree that they want healthy deer populations. How we get there is up for debate. The only thing that has been proven again and again is that once a season is shortened or altered it is never coming back.

In my opinion no decisions should be made until proper scientific studies of population are conducted...More than buck/doe ratios! The Buck/Doe ratio is useless stat without knowing the total population. A ration of 15/100 sounds great, hunt away until realize those are the last 115 deer in the region. Same for the opposite with a doe ration of 7/100 but if there is 5,000 deer in an area that can only support 2,500 than the lower ratio is better. BC has mismanaged wildlife for so long that many people have forgotten what proper science is like. Without it we are shooting in the dark!

[Caribou_lou]

The only thing that has been proven again and again is that once a season is shortened or altered it is never coming back.

In my opinion no decisions should be made until proper scientific studies of population are conducted...More than buck/doe ratios! The Buck/Doe ratio is useless stat without knowing the total population. A ration of 15/100 sounds great, hunt away until realize those are the last 115 deer in the region. Same for the opposite with a doe ration of 7/100 but if there is 5,000 deer in an area that can only support 2,500 than the lower ratio is better. BC has mismanaged wildlife for so long that many people have forgotten what proper science is like. Without it we are shooting in the dark!

I agree 100%. Well put

[afflicted 1]

I have to agree. There are certain areas that are easily accessible that young bucks are getting hammered and some areas there are definitely better ratios. I can't think of another way then to shorten the any buck season and possibly push some of these hunters into areas they might find higher densities and maybe that will help maintain a better overall population ratio throughout the region

[wos]

As your filling out your survey please keep in mind we don't need to make any season changes in regon 3. We need 8 and 5 or at least bordering parts of 8 and 5 to match the season in 3. Let's not lose any more seasons.

[HarryToolips]

^^^^totally agree...

[Fisher-Dude]

I have to agree. There are certain areas that are easily accessible that young bucks are getting hammered and some areas there are definitely better ratios. I can't think of another way then to shorten the any buck season and possibly push some of these hunters into areas they might find higher densities and maybe that will help maintain a better overall population ratio throughout the region

That won't result in one more mule deer on the landscape nor any more big bucks.

Science is where it's at.


CONCLUSIONS
After decades of use and many evaluations reporting disappointing results, most western states and provinces
have discontinued statewide antler point restrictions. The two main reasons for abandoning widespread antler
point restrictions are (1) unacceptable accidental-illegal kill, and (2) harvest mortality was increased (focused) on
the very age classes they intended to promote. Available data and experience suggest antler point restrictions result
in no long-term increase in either the proportion or number of mature bucks, or the total deer population.

https://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/pdf/mdwg/mdwg-6_point_restrictions.pdf

[Bugle M In]

Exactly^^^FD

I do also agree with WOS also however.
The areas I hunt in R3, there has been a significant jump in hunter#'s, all because of the closure in
Nov in R5.
Especially areas that border R5.
There are other things that are of just as big in importance that need to be addressed as well.
We all know that....
but that is where I am really disappointed with this survey....
It asks us really nothing on those issues...other then atv/road closure.
Again, this only is geared to ask about leh/shorter season/bag limits/closures etc....
Just the same old same old.....no real shift in direction on the bigger issues.....

[boxhitch]

Like I said before..........

Also, this is a simple survey of hunters sentiment, no more, no less

[wos]

^^If that were the case they wouldn't bother with the survey. I have never heard them ask how's everything? are you happy ?I hope you are killing enough deer! what can we do to help? They always ask loaded questions.

[RadHimself]

this survey concerns me....

limiting harvest isnt going to fix it if the habit is trashed.

im totally in agreeance that there should be a few specific zones designated for LEH hunting of "trophy" animals... but thats just from what i understand of american conservation


we all know that in order to chase big mature animals, they have to be left to grow... but the genetics need to be there as well.

screwing with the seasons will not stop poachers that WILL take an animal regardless of season or region because they feel it is their god givin right to harvest. let alone all the guys who have a "friend" who will say that they shot it (you bet your ass that was an FN reference, i see it every year in region 3)

there is a massive amount of terrain n region 3 decimated by logging and very little of the roads have been properly deactivated. it's a road hunters wet dream


we all know the wolves are on a HUGE increase, but how many of us actually hunt them?


this survey is totally geared towards cutting down on hunting in that region.... but i dont think its truly the answer

im having a hard time filling it out because it seems totally loaded....

[Jelvis]

-- No body likes changes to the norms of anything it seems but change causes attention to boost, focus on subject and try to get hunters together with the Ministry's plans and projects.
-- trust is important to have in the Ministry that they will try their dangest to get things right
I've been in BC since birth and hunted all my life in region 3 up north thompson valley.
-- The management has been good so far all my life so I don't expect it to take a sudden dive.
It's history to look at, all the data ever done and collected over a hundred years on Kammy country mule deer, by hunters themselves who know where they hunt.
-- As long as the migration routes are good from back n forth to keeping our water good.
Protect Dewdrop out of Kammy, the whole north side of Kamloops Lake, and from Kammy to Clearwater keep that North Thompson River system pure and natural as possible.
Jel -- Reg 3 is the most pleasant region to hunt for multitudes who love mule deer hunting --

[horshur]

this survey concerns me....

limiting harvest isnt going to fix it if the habit is trashed.

im totally in agreeance that there should be a few specific zones designated for LEH hunting of "trophy" animals... but thats just from what i understand of american conservation


we all know that in order to chase big mature animals, they have to be left to grow... but the genetics need to be there as well.

screwing with the seasons will not stop poachers that WILL take an animal regardless of season or region because they feel it is their god givin right to harvest. let alone all the guys who have a "friend" who will say that they shot it (you bet your ass that was an FN reference, i see it every year in region 3)

there is a massive amount of terrain n region 3 decimated by logging and very little of the roads have been properly deactivated. it's a road hunters wet dream


we all know the wolves are on a HUGE increase, but how many of us actually hunt them?


this survey is totally geared towards cutting down on hunting in that region.... but i dont think its truly the answer

im having a hard time filling it out because it seems totally loaded....

Rad, I don't know where ashton creek bridge is but if that is where you live and if there is good hunting imagine your backyard going to LEH to appease some small (minded) hunters.

[Caribou_lou]

we all know the wolves are on a HUGE increase, but how many of us actually hunt them?


How many wolves are harvested while out hunting other species compared to going out and targeting them? Probably close to 100% I'd bet. Not including the trappers.

That at is a main reason we need more hunters in the bush. Knock the predators back. Coyotes do more damage than wolves when it comes to fawns also. Shoot'em all

[Caribou_lou]

Rad, I don't know where ashton creek bridge is but if that is where you live and if there is good hunting imagine your backyard going to LEH to appease some small (minded) hunters.

LEH seems to attract attention to certain areas. I hope people don't think that because they are local they will have better odds at drawing these "Trophy Tags". Hunters province wide will be applying for those tags if they ever were to be pushed through. Hope not

[Seeker]

LEH seems to attract attention to certain areas. I hope people don't think that because they are local they will have better odds at drawing these "Trophy Tags". Hunters province wide will be applying for those tags if they ever were to be pushed through. Hope not

Agree 100%, and the bigger and more frequent trophies start coming out of the LEH area's the more applicants will apply, thus potentially reducing odds even more.

I believe in scientific management with targeted population goals/numbers in place. I also believe based on my anecdotal experience that big deer will be found in quality habitat where there is limited human access.

[Seeker]

How many wolves are harvested while out hunting other species compared to going out and targeting them? Probably close to 100% I'd bet. Not including the trappers.

That at is a main reason we need more hunters in the bush. Knock the predators back. Coyotes do more damage than wolves when it comes to fawns also. Shoot'em all

I'm all for helping out a few ungulates here and there with some predator control, but the researchers that presented on the proposed mule deer study near Westbridge cited research that illustrates, wolves, coyotes, cougars, etc (predators) are not the limiting factor in "deer" population dynamics. Once again, that honour goes to habitat. Larger ungulates such as elk are reportedly more prone to the predators, but deer are resilient. Hopefully this study over the next few years will verify those findings and provide BC wildlife managers with valuable knowledge in order to develop initiatives to aid in reestablishing mule deer populations in regions that have seen recent declines.

[Fisher-Dude]

I'm all for helping out a few ungulates here and there with some predator control, but the researchers that presented on the proposed mule deer study near Westbridge cited research that illustrates, wolves, coyotes, cougars, etc (predators) are not the limiting factor in "deer" population dynamics. Once again, that honour goes to habitat. Larger ungulates such as elk are reportedly more prone to the predators, but deer are resilient. Hopefully this study over the next few years will verify those findings and provide BC wildlife managers with valuable knowledge in order to develop initiatives to aid in reestablishing mule deer populations in regions that have seen recent declines.

True dat.

In 21 studies on the effects on mule deer of predator reduction, only one study showed a positive MD population response.

Interestingly, one study also showed a MD population decrease after the preds were gunned to miniscule numbers. The researchers' comments: habitat, habitat, habitat.

[M.Dean]

The only way to bring the deer numbers up is to first find out whats killing them, and get rid of what ever it is. Cougar, Wolves and Coyotes and you and me. If you closed a area completely down for deer hunting, they'd come back big time, but so would the predators, so now, to get rid of the predators you have to get rid of the idiots that stand up and scream every time there's a animal cull! If we humans want to eat meat, we have to get rid of the animals that like a fine deer roast too, there's simply not enough animals to go around the way I see it. We need more Cat hunters, Wolf hunters and Coyote hunters, so get out and do your part!

[Jelvis]

-- The Ministry got Skull Mtn happening, that in itself was a winner, b4 it got ruined by human activity's.
-- let's keep these types of special habitat for wintering mules wild as possible, no residents or ranchers. Keep it rock solid as natural as possible.
-- Keep it Crown for the control, limit cattle to a minimum lease and it can't stop hunters access if they have one
-- With new high technology and devices with aps and hook-ups try some new connections with mules and the new tech, devices, cameras, id, origin, follow, end, back etc.
Jel -- let's hone in haha on the monster mules -- reg 3 mules --

[RadHimself]

I grew up in 3-12. yes im local


we all know and agree sumthin needs to change.

cutting back on the october killing spree might help.

knocking back the predation, and improving destroyed habitat will CERTAINLY help more

bjg deer dont grow up in cutblocks. The dumb ones gettin harvested by road hunters arnt the entire genetic pool.

but where do the ones with the genes for "trophy" antlers end up?

the deepest darkest hell hole in the area...

[Fisher-Dude]

cutting back on the october killing spree might help.



We just heard that the sex ratios are fine in the latest surveys.

Changing buck regs won't grow one more deer nor one more big deer.

Stick with the science.

[Wild one]

We just heard that the sex ratios are fine in the latest surveys.

Changing buck regs won't grow one more deer nor one more big deer.

Stick with the science.


Wont grow more deer agree 100% there

but it is proven you can manage for a higher % of mature deer

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Wont grow more deer agree 100% there

but it is proven you can manage for a higher % of mature deer


Yes. It's called LEH. Do we really need to go there?

[Wild one]

Yes. It's called LEH. Do we really need to go there?

Leh is one way and no I am not for it

it still comes down to restricting the number of bucks harvest

[boxhitch]

So restrict the opportunities for most hunters in the hopes of satisfying the few ?
There's a name for that.......

[Wild one]

So restrict the opportunities for most hunters in the hopes of satisfying the few ?
There's a name for that.......

nope not into that either

it don't matter too many fear change for anything to be supported. So BC will manage with the same style same tools.


I will only hope habitat enhancement goes through and helps improve numbers/quality

[Fisher-Dude]

Wont grow more deer agree 100% there

but it is proven you can manage for a higher % of mature deer

No it won't. Read the article referenced above.

[Wild one]

No it won't. Read the article referenced above.

Artical is about pt restrictions posted on this forum and this thread I do not support them

it is how ever effective reducing overall buck harvest LEH being the extreme but shorter GOS and lower bag limit is another tool. This would be negative to apply a shorter season throughout BC as it would be too much of a loss in opurtunity

like I said too much fear of change in BC so we will not see anything but GOS, LEH, or pt restriction. There is a huge variety of management systems in North America some better than BC some worse

to ignore the fact there is no other way to manage hunting in BC is merely close minded.


Hope we see possitive and a huge improvement in habitat enhancement because if things don't improve for mule deer we will see more restrictions. Unfortunately it will just be a new combination of the same tools as because BC will stick to the same style it has since I started hunting as a kid

crossing my fingers for mild winters and a huge increase in habitat improvement the ? Is how many years before we see results and will it be on a grand enough scale to see large improvement

[wideopenthrottle]

I still strongly believe we should all have to report our hunting activities and harvests when we put in for our new tags-doing it online makes this easy...
Some have said harvest has nothing to do with managing game but it is a variable that could help quantify the effects of the previous winter kill... especially combined with spring surveys ....ultimately, habitat is the final driver of deer pops but spring survival, habitat carrying capacity (that changes with forestry, development, road building or other large scale activity) fawn recruitment all work together to determine the best pop levels to optimize numbers as well as ratios. As noted before, 5000 under crowded well fed healthy breading does may produce perhaps as many as 10,000 fawns and high winter survival even in tough winters....in the same habitat if 10000 does was too many, they might be in poor health and have poor winter survival as well as producing less fawns than the 5000 health ones.....In this context the following year harvest success rates might help determine a more optimum (for deer herd health) number of deer and hunters can help with this a lot...by hunting more and killing more deer we may increase the number available the following year....This is the fundamental concept of sustainablity

[HarryToolips]

^^^bingo.....

[Jelvis]

-- Too many variables that occur over a life span of an average mule deer to cover and protect with management and enforcement and with kid gloves.
-- from b4 birth, it's herd, it's dna
-- location
-- intermingling, one buck or doe from different herd breeds togedder ok copulation.
-- weather
-- topography
-- new roads
-- new logging
-- new forest fires
-- water
-- edible foods
-- access to deer herd
-- hunting season
-- road kill
-- parasites
-- sickness
-- buck doe ratio wrong no felatio
-- too many deer for habitat to sustain
-- snow depth
Jel -- we still try to learn and succeed with plans for sustainable conservation despite the tree men dess challenges.

[250 sav]

-- Too many variables that occur over a life span of an average mule deer to cover and protect with management and enforcement and with kid gloves.
-- from b4 birth, it's herd, it's dna
-- intermingling, one buck or doe from different herd breeds togedder ok copulation.
-- weather
-- topography
-- new roads
-- new logging
-- new forest fires
-- water
-- edible foods
-- access to deer herd
-- hunting season
-- road kill
-- parasites
-- sickness
-- buck doe ratio wrong no felatio
-- too many deer for habitat to sustain
-- snow depth
Jel -- we still try to learn and succeed with plans for sustainable conservation despite the tree men dess challenges.

Jel you forgot a major factor, unlicensed hunting ( FN, poachers etc.)

[Caribou_lou]

I still strongly believe we should all have to report our hunting activities and harvests when we put in for our new tags-doing it online makes this easy...

I don't see why it can't be reported within 10 days after harvest.

But let's be honest, if this were to happen it would take the guess work out of harvest data. Which I see as being a good thing but others may not. I'm interested to know how much money used to conduct this survey? From start to finish, coming up with questionnaire and sending out by post. I don't think it's useful information either. Waste of money. It's not science based. But ministry is great at making decisions not science based...

[Jelvis]

-- Status Indian, the Status Indian has rights and is entitled for sustenance across Canada.
Status Indians are Indians under The Indian Act which is Federal Jurisdiction --
-- Federal and Provincial and Bands work together to sustain a good working relationship
-- .250, I see your idea about not known factor about how many exactly were killed.
-- a poacher is (not obeying the Ministry and needs to be corrected) b4 going over board.
Jel --
I understand what your trying to say about hard to count numbers -- mule deer r strong --

[250 sav]

-- Status Indian, the Status Indian has rights and is entitled for sustenance across Canada.
-- .250, I see your idea about not known factor about how many exactly were killed.
-- a poacher is not obeying the Ministry and needs to be corrected b4 going over board.
Jel --
I understand what your trying to say about hard to count numbers -- mule deer r strong --
They have a huge influence on the population in many areas.

[Fisher-Dude]

I don't see why it can't be reported within 10 days after harvest.

But let's be honest, if this were to happen it would take the guess work out of harvest data. Which I see as being a good thing but others may not. I'm interested to know how much money used to conduct this survey? From start to finish, coming up with questionnaire and sending out by post. I don't think it's useful information either. Waste of money. It's not science based. But ministry is great at making decisions not science based...


We did a good test of the harvest survey data in region 8. Elk were on compulsory inspection for many years. Before removing them from CI the bios did a comparison of the CI data and the harvest survey data. Surprise, the CI and the survey data were statistically the same.

If Dr Val Geist says our survey data is great, then it's good enough for me.

[boxhitch]

I don't think it's useful information either. Waste of money. It's not science based.Why, because it doesn't conform to your picture of science, or management?
Survey results will paint a picture, to be called upon when needed in ways the managers can use, if and when they want, possibly to quell a disagreement among other uses. A tool in the box.

[horshur]

It may weigh the reliability of hunter perceptions vs actual observable numbers. A benchmark of sorts. Frig bitch that they don't listen to hunters and bitch that they are trying....

[Jelvis]

Region 3: - Thompson-Nicola - Mule deer

-- easy access to hunting spots, thru out Region 3.
-- mule deer are found all thru Region 3.
-- North west of Kamloops off Tranquille road area, Savona, Red lake, Deadman Creek.
-- super mule deer hunting country along with gorgeous scenery to boot.
- Greenstone Mtn, and so much more to protect, manage, enforce and sustain over decades.
Jelvis in dah Loops -- South central interior -- just minutes from the Lower Strangeland --

[Caribou_lou]

Why, because it doesn't conform to your picture of science, or management?
Survey results will paint a picture, to be called upon when needed in ways the managers can use, if and when they want, possibly to quell a disagreement among other uses. A tool in the box.

In my opinion, I don't think hunters sentiment is a form of science or management. I think solid harvest numbers are a form of science based management.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Results of this survey are out....although they are in PDF and I don't know how to convert them to a format that would work here.

Anyone else technically savvy???

[bownut]

Only that hunter pressure has nearly doubled in "recent" years.
Survey says "Hunting Has Little Effect On game Populations"
In yet Access is a top Driver.

I am so confused.........

[bownut]

I don't see why it can't be reported within 10 days after harvest.

But let's be honest, if this were to happen it would take the guess work out of harvest data. Which I see as being a good thing but others may not. I'm interested to know how much money used to conduct this survey? From start to finish, coming up with questionnaire and sending out by post. I don't think it's useful information either. Waste of money. It's not science based. But ministry is great at making decisions not science based...

Hurley Report

MANDATORY REPORTING1

[boxhitch]

the nut shell

The overarching management direction we take from this survey is that hunters are generally satisfied with the status quo but are also generally dissatisfied with hunter crowding and the abundance of bucks, but recognize that a trade-off exists between hunting opportunity and the abundance of bucks. When considering buck harvest management approaches for Region 3 the majority of hunters would prefer to see current seasons maintained and focus on implementing other management actions (e.g., access management, habitat enhancement, winter range protection and predator management, etc.) to benefit mule deer and mule deer hunting. If hunting pressure and buck harvests need to be reduced through regulatory options, modification of the provincial bag limit was the preferred approach.
The following are a summary of the main conclusions derived from the survey:
Current Management Considerations
1. The majority of Region 3 mule deer hunters are dissatisfied with the abundance of bucks in Region 3, and Bonaparte GMZ hunters are more satisfied than Nicola GMZ hunters, but the majority of hunters are satisfied with their hunting success and nearly 70% desired to maintain current buck ratio objectives and current seasons for bucks, likely in recognition of the trade-off that exists between hunting opportunity and buck abundance. A high proportion of those hunters (~50%) also identified that non-regulatory and regulatory management actions (habitat enhancement, access management, and predator management) should be implemented to benefit buck hunting. Further, although hunters expressed dissatisfaction with the number of bucks and mature bucks, very few hunters desired to see buck harvest management approaches that would promote a high abundance of mature bucks (i.e., trophy management) or provide for an overall lower abundance of bucks.
2. The majority of Region 3 mule deer hunters are dissatisfied with the level of hunter crowding they experience in Region 3 but only 45% of hunters desired to see more access management in the region. We suspect there was difficulty in interpreting this term because we did not define what access management encompasses (i.e., physical road management vs. Wildlife Act regulation). Future hunter surveys of this nature should clearly define this term to better understand hunter desires.
3. The highest level of support for broad management approaches to assist with managing buck harvests was for modification of provincial bag limits. The patterns of buck harvest suggest that black-tailed deer harvest should be considered when developing provincial bag limits designed to reduce mule deer buck harvests to have maximum effect. A relatively high proportion of Region 3 mule deer hunters (> 40%) indicate they hunt mule and/or black-tailed deer bucks in
24
multiple regions, which is important to understand to assess effects of provincial bag limits on harvests and pressure.
4. The majority of Region 3 mule deer hunters are satisfied with current “Any Buck” and “ 4 Point Buck” season structures and do not want to see them shorter or longer. The majority of Region 3 mule deer hunters do not want to see a longer youth season for mule deer.
5. The majority of Region 3 mule deer hunters desire to see maintenance of current levels of antlerless hunting for mule deer in Region 3 but a relatively high proportion (nearly 30%) desired to see increased antlerless hunting.
6. The majority of Region 3 mule deer hunters are satisfied with the number of deer they see in Region 3 and the overall quality of mule deer hunting in Region 3. Satisfaction is higher for hunters in the Bonaparte GMZ than the Nicola GMZ.
7. The majority of Region 3 mule deer hunters are satisfied with current harvest levels for white-tailed deer and over 50% of hunters believe more should be harvested. Approximately 15% of Region 3 mule deer hunters believe harvests of white-tailed deer should be reduced.
Future Management Considerations
1. The majority of Region 3 mule deer hunters believe more management focus should be directed at habitat protection and management (i.e., winter range), habitat enhancement and predator management.
2. The majority of Region 3 mule deer hunters would rather see adjacent regions liberalize their seasons to harmonize as opposed to Region 3 restricting mule deer seasons, but if season restrictions were to be implemented in Region 3, the highest level of support was to modify November seasons as opposed to October seasons. Within November, the highest support was for implementing a rut closure from November 11th-20th as opposed to shortening seasons to November 10th (similar to Region 4 & 8) or 30th(similar to Region 5).
3. The age distribution of Region 3 mule deer hunters suggest mule deer hunter numbers could significantly decline in the future (~8% under age of 30; ~65% over the age of 50).

4. Trail cameras appear to be used by a minor number of hunters and not likely to be of management concern at this point.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Thanks for posting up the summary boxhitch.

Overall, it seems like the majority of surveyed hunters understand the driving factors on mule deer.

[Wild one]

Truth is it is what I say all the time BC hunters fear change and the loss of even a day in the field


Hence why BC is behind most of North America

[Salty]

Truth is it is what I say all the time BC hunters fear change and the loss of even a day in the field


Hence why BC is behind most of North America

Not trying to be a dick but iirc you moved here recently from Alberta yet all you do is complain about how ****ed up things are and a long list of what's wrong with BC hunters. Maybe try looking for a little positive once in a while? Or ... /rant

[boxhitch]

Hence why BC is behind most of North AmericaCare to post up some examples? Behind in what? Habitat? Growing monster mulies? Woof culls?
Not many landscapes compare to BC , if any. Stuff for another thread maybe.

[Bugle M In]

Boxhitch....thanks for posting up the info.
I was wondering what the outcome was, and agree, some of the questioning was a little confusing from what I remember.
Glad that "they" saw that as well.
What I didn't like was being "forced" to answer that question on:
"I you had to choose, would you choose closing days in November or altering October" etc.
I just wanted to say..."neither"....
Don't force me to give a response to something I would never want to in the 1st place...that one sucked...IMO
I am glad to see that many hunters however did concur that habitat and pred is the major concern...AND....
that other Regions should be open at the same time etc.

[Bugle M In]

Truth is it is what I say all the time BC hunters fear change and the loss of even a day in the field


Hence why BC is behind most of North America

How about we "actually try to enhance habitat first" this time, before we go the route you think would be most beneficial.??
Sorry, but, it used to be that there were "burns" that happened in the 70's to help wildlife from what a retired
Kamloops Bio told me.
Something that rarely happens now....and now, I think they will just let Mother Nature do what it did this past
summer.
Or maybe they will smarten up, and see that doing prescribed burns are actually cheaper then the costs are to
fight them like it did!!??....if they smart enough to figure that out??
But, again....lets try a different approach then what has been happening for 30+ years.
Instead of Restrictions and closures.....how about "fixing it up" and dropping some dogs first.

[blacklab]

Looks to me they got the answers they wanted.
I filled mine out like a good boy, a waste of my time. I said at the time the answer will be kill more whitetail, restrict access, and brow beat the other regions to fall in line with region 3.

[Wild one]

Not trying to be a dick but iirc you moved here recently from Alberta yet all you do is complain about how ****ed up things are and a long list of what's wrong with BC hunters. Maybe try looking for a little positive once in a while? Or ... /rant


Actually I was born in BC and majority of my hunting has been in BC. I moved away from BC for a few years and have been back since 2007

I was raised to think BC was the greatest hunting around and believed it for along time. After I moved away I experienced a big difference in hunting quality. Over the years I also got to know hunters from different provs and states. Then started to realize the southern 2/3 of B.C. the hunting is a mess. We can brag about long seasons and that’s about it

Hunters say how seasons have no impact and B.C. Really we have always had long seasons that did not change. Instead point restrictions were add and some populations dropped to the point of LEH. To those who say we tried different hunting restrictions well not really it’s just a slightly different paint job

I am frustrated whatching BC be a shadow of what it could be. I do watch BC hunters fight like dogs to not loose one day. I do watch them fight any possible thing that may change there hunting rather then look at long term possibilities

[Wild one]

Care to post up some examples? Behind in what? Habitat? Growing monster mulies? Woof culls?
Not many landscapes compare to BC , if any. Stuff for another thread maybe.

The truth is the true difference in BC is the variety oh habitat. There is not place with the variety of habitat but there are many places that share habitat just like portions of B.C.

Biggest mistake in BC harmonization of management regardless of habitat and populations. Yes BC is different for the example I have given. Rather then saying BC is different open our eyes to the similarities to portions of BC many places share. Open our eyes to the fact that with all the micro habitats BC needs to pay closer attention to each area

Everyone preaches habitat but yet ignores we manage it all like it’s the same

I am about to head to work so can’t dig for examples truth is they are there and if you don’t see them now it’s because you have chosen not to

[Wild one]

How about we "actually try to enhance habitat first" this time, before we go the route you think would be most beneficial.??
Sorry, but, it used to be that there were "burns" that happened in the 70's to help wildlife from what a retired
Kamloops Bio told me.
Something that rarely happens now....and now, I think they will just let Mother Nature do what it did this past
summer.
Or maybe they will smarten up, and see that doing prescribed burns are actually cheaper then the costs are to
fight them like it did!!??....if they smart enough to figure that out??
But, again....lets try a different approach then what has been happening for 30+ years.
Instead of Restrictions and closures.....how about "fixing it up" and dropping some dogs first.

All for habitat enhancement but we need to manage the habitat we have now. Can always change as things improve

I am all for Pred management but I have also hunted areas with higher wolf numbers that had higher game numbers

In my opinion BC needs a complete over haul but it’s not going to happen. We also need to work with what we have instead of relying only on habitat enchancement and Pred control because these projects are great long term but take years to get results. More so nothing has even started on these issues or even a date when work will start on these

[Gamebuster]

Looks to me they got the answers they wanted.
I filled mine out like a good boy, a waste of my time. I said at the time the answer will be kill more whitetail, restrict access, and brow beat the other regions to fall in line with region 3.

why was it a waste of time? Because your views dont align with others? Would it have been a waste of time if others aligned with your views?

[guest]

Looks to me they got the answers they wanted.
I filled mine out like a good boy, a waste of my time. I said at the time the answer will be kill more whitetail, restrict access, and brow beat the other regions to fall in line with region 3.


Well now, your negativity will certainly help GROW wildlife won't it ?

[2chodi]

The full report. (http://http://nprg.ca/region-3-mule-deer-hunter-survey-final-report-december-2017/)

[Fisher-Dude]

Looks to me they got the answers they wanted.
I filled mine out like a good boy, a waste of my time. I said at the time the answer will be kill more whitetail, restrict access, and brow beat the other regions to fall in line with region 3.


why was it a waste of time? Because your views dont align with others? Would it have been a waste of time if others aligned with your views?

You nailed it Gamebuster.

People are often of the view that their small minority MUST be right. And when managers cave to small, vocal minorities, we see decisions that aren't in the interests of wildlife nor hunters. In the past, that was very prevalent, and is a large part of the pickle we find ourselves in in some areas now.