caddisguy's ultimate tick experiment

[caddisguy]

So the tick thread on the Van Island section got my wheels spinning.

I have talked to my doctor a few times about Lyme but he tells me it is virtually non-existant West of the Rockies. At the same time, I have seen maps that show places in southwest BC (my hunting spot included) listed as high risk. I am curious who is right, as I get bit several times a year. To date I have had over 50 ticks in me and hundreds on me. Very few engorged for more than a day.

I read about a test kit called "Care Plus Tick Test" and found it at London Drugs. It is going to cost me quite a bit, but why not? This experiment is going to be wicked cool.

I am going to by 15-20 test kits at around $15 each. I am going to collect 15 adult deer ticks from my hunting spot (I can do this just by walking through a little brush in painter gear)

This will either put me at ease or educate a doctor. Either way it is going to be an awesome win.

Downside is it will cost me $200-300 but it will give me something to mess around with this weekend if there are still no bears around my area.

I am excited. Anyone else interested in this experiment or am I just nuts?

[DarekG]

Sounds interesting, would be awesome to hear the results. Where the hell are you that you can collect 15 ticks by walking through a little brush? Must be the humidity or something because they don't seem as common in the Okanagan... Though I have pulled a few off before. Gross.

Also does anyone here have experience with a "Lyme friendly" doctor in BC? I've heard most aren't educated about it and don't generally check for it, or check too late. Apparently you can cure it with antibiotics if you catch it fast enough.

[tuner]

I think it's safe to say that it's both very interesting and flat out nuts.
Good on you though Caddis the results ought to be interesting.

[Spy]

I would find a new Dr ;-)

[Wild one]

I hate ticks sick creepy little Fers

Collect and kill as many as you can

[caddisguy]

My bear spot in Region 2 has loads of ticks. One thing I haven't figured out is why they like me so much. My wife stomps around the same places I do and we have only ever found two ticks crawling on her. She has never been bitten. I was bitten on Saturday while being super careful. I was wearing light blue jeans, tucked into socks, checking every minute or two. I would move branches out of the way with my hands instead of letting them touch me. If one touched me, I would inspect the area it touched me. Then while standing in two feet of snow I felt a pinch on my lower back... touched it and it felt like a pimple. I called my wife over and she pulled the tick out. I was only out of the car for 5 minutes!!

[chris]

I'm definitely curious. It's funny how doctors would rather ignore it because it's not as common out here.

[scoutlt1]

Damn caddisguy, you are one chick...I mean tick magnet!!! :)

[landphil]

Count me in as interested in the results. You must be a magnet for ticks though, fifty+ bites; holy cow man. I've never been bitten, have had one on me (that I know of) that I brushed off, and saw a handful on my bear from a few years ago. That's growing up living in the sticks, and spending lots of time outdoors.

[landphil]

My bear spot in Region 2 has loads of ticks. One thing I haven't figured out is why they like me so much. My wife stomps around the same places I do and we have only ever found two ticks crawling on her. She has never been bitten. I was bitten on Saturday while being super careful. I was wearing light blue jeans, tucked into socks, checking every minute or two. I would move branches out of the way with my hands instead of letting them touch me. If one touched me, I would inspect the area it touched me. Then while standing in two feet of snow I felt a pinch on my lower back... touched it and it felt like a pimple. I called my wife over and she pulled the tick out. I was only out of the car for 5 minutes!!

You sound like my wife with mosquitos. They only start to bug me when you can't breath in without inhaling one. But they swarm to her like mad, and she gets pretty bad reactions from their bites.

[scoutlt1]

Good on ya for doing the experiment for sure!

Curious about the results as well...

[albravo2]

Caddis,

I think you could spend that money much more wisely.

Your doctor does not want to be educated or he/she would already know how prevalent Lyme is in BC. I've spoken to many like him.

If, God forbid, you do get Lyme he will tell you that you are feeling ill because you have a virus that will pass. Then he will tell you that you aren't as young as you used to be. Then he will tell you it is all in your head, and you should maybe talk to a shrink.

My doctor is smart enough to admit that she is baffled by Lyme and by the medical community's head-in-the-sand approach.

[Whonnock Boy]

I'm curious how a 15 dollar test can determine if a tick has Lyme, but it is very difficult to determine if a person a contracted it.

[WesHarm]

Interesting experiment for sure.... bugs usually dont like me so i'd be interested in seeing this spot of yours for ticks ;) hahaha

after myltiple months living in the bush doing geology exploration i still have yet to see a tick let alone be bit by one.... but i was always working well up north so maybe theres less up there??

[caddisguy]

I'm curious how a 15 dollar test can determine if a tick has Lyme, but it is very difficult to determine if a person a contracted it.

The tick is small and contains the bacteria which is easy to test for. We can't crush up a human in a test tube with a solution and put a test strip in. We have to test for antibodies (American style) which can be false positive) or do an ELISA / Western Blot test (Canadian style which is prone to false negatives)

This test is going to be great, as it will show how prevelant Lyme is in my bear honey hole. If I do 20 tests and they are all negative, I would say risk is very low as ticks only transmit Lyme a small fraction of the time even when they carry it.

This information either way will be useful for outdoor users around Chilliwack/Hope and potentially doctors as well. If I get a significant number of positives I am going to educate some doctors, spam it around in the media and make a big issue out of it. This is going to have a positive impact one way of the other.

I just talked to caddisgirl. She is on board and we are happy to bankroll this. We are not rich by any means but in times of lack of bears, a jeep full of test tubes, crushing up ticks and waiting for test strips sounds awesome and worth every penny. Mobile Lyme testing lab this weekend!!

[Lastcar]

Dr. Ernie Murakami out of Hope. At the forefront of Lyme education and treatment.

Fantastic man, doctor and leader in the community for my entire youth, no doubt carried it on after I left in '94.

http://www.murakamicentreforlyme.org/

Oh man...I sound like BgBlkDg more and more every day...and kinda like it.

[Spy]

Caddis,

I think you could spend that money much more wisely.

Your doctor does not want to be educated or he/she would already know how prevalent Lyme is in BC. I've spoken to many like him.

If, God forbid, you do get Lyme he will tell you that you are feeling ill because you have a virus that will pass. Then he will tell you that you aren't as young as you used to be. Then he will tell you it is all in your head, and you should maybe talk to a shrink.

My doctor is smart enough to admit that she is baffled by Lyme and by the medical community's head-in-the-sand approach.
I used less words than you ;-)

[the hopper]

Don't crush em with just your fingers the spirochete can transit through skin good luck.
canlyme is an excellent resource

[Fisher-Dude]

So the tick thread on the Van Island section got my wheels spinning.

I have talked to my doctor a few times about Lyme but he tells me it is virtually non-existant West of the Rockies. At the same time, I have seen maps that show places in southwest BC (my hunting spot included) listed as high risk. I am curious who is right, as I get bit several times a year. To date I have had over 50 ticks in me and hundreds on me. Very few engorged for more than a day.

I read about a test kit called "Care Plus Tick Test" and found it at London Drugs. It is going to cost me quite a bit, but why not? This experiment is going to be wicked cool.

I am going to by 15-20 test kits at around $15 each. I am going to collect 15 adult deer ticks from my hunting spot (I can do this just by walking through a little brush in painter gear)

This will either put me at ease or educate a doctor. Either way it is going to be an awesome win.

Downside is it will cost me $200-300 but it will give me something to mess around with this weekend if there are still no bears around my area.

I am excited. Anyone else interested in this experiment or am I just nuts?

About $7.99 plus taxes.


https://www.acklandsgrainger.com/images/items/zoom/11TJ67_AS01.JPG

Save your money.

[RackStar]

This thread is making me itchy...

[caddisguy]

Spy / Albravo I totally get what you guys are saying. The medical community does have their head in the sand. I totally get it. Doctors face big time scrutiny even testing for Lyme and our doctors are fed BS. Canada can't really support the treatment and disability payouts for Lyme and there is certainly is interest to wait until the tipping point before the vaccine (which exists but is no longer produced due to "lack of demand/necessity") will really sell. I understand the run-around from doctors, but a huge part of that is internal propaganda. I know doctors that are genuine and would go ape-poop if I show them first hand.

This experiment isn't about me or whether or not I have Lyme. It's a Fraser Valley biological experiment driven by curiosity with the bonus being that the results are going to be useful either way. AFAIK no private individual has ever done such a thing with this kind of precision.

This is first hand. This is hunter to hunter. I am doing this for you. This is an HBC exclusive. It's all going to originate here on HBC in this thread.

I do appreciate the interest and encouragement.

I am going to pick up the test kits tomorrow and some white coveralls. I am going to hunt in white coveralls and catch ticks. We are going to film some of this catching and testing. There is a very slight chance you will see us drop a bear in white coveralls which would be pretty neat too.

[caddisguy]

About $7.99 plus taxes.


https://www.acklandsgrainger.com/images/items/zoom/11TJ67_AS01.JPG

Save your money.

That stuff works for me until I step out of the truck lol

[caddisguy]

Don't crush em with just your fingers the spirochete can transit through skin good luck.
canlyme is an excellent resource

Lol dang don't tell me that I crushed dozens with my fingers. They don't die easy though, you have to smush the head/neck.

I imagine these test kits come with a crushing tool to smush it while it's in the test tube.

[Whonnock Boy]

It says that it comes with a wooden stick.

http://www.careplus.eu/en/first-aid/tick-test/care-plus-tick-test-lyme-borreliose/



I imagine these test kits come with a crushing tool to smush it while it's in the test tube.

[Boner]

Not recognized as a workplace hazard either. We find em lots in the burns. I've heard they like to hang out in juniper, but I haven't confirmed that myself. But for sure the burns.

[WesHarm]

Hope to see the video of you fully white suited up dropping ticks and bears all in one video hahaha

[albravo2]

I used less words than you ;-)

I would have said what you said if you hadn't said it first.

[srupp]

Seen a cow moose out past Horsefly 2 weeks ago while bunny hunting..the cow was badly infested with ticks..she was rubbed raw along the neck from rubbing..yuk....
Srupp

[boxhitch]

Just reading their fact sheet and it seems to indicate the test is done on a tick that has bitten in and been removed? Might be worth clarifying

[Asco]

Good on you and thanks Caddisguy, I am really interested in your results.

I frequent the same types of spots as you so I have a stake in this. On the other hand I've never seen a tick othe than on a deer.

[AgSilver]

Be careful...a close friend has Lyme and it's awful. She gets forgetful, exhausted, out of sorts, etc. Kinda sucks when I'm paying her to do work for me!

[blindcast]

Change doctors quickly. Who knows what other misinformation he might be foisting off on you. On your way out the door, hand your doc the March/April issue of Western Woods & Waters magazine or give him the link to the Spring issue North American Deer Hunter Magazine (online). Both have excellent articles on ticks and the diseases they carry. Could prove informative reading for your doctor.

[mastercaster]

I think if I was going to do a test like this I'd be more inclined to hit more than just the one area. It's possible the area you hunt while having a high tick population, they may not be carriers but if you were to go one valley over maybe the tick population there has some culprits that could pass on the Lyme disease. I really think it would be more beneficial if you hit 4-5 area and took 4-5 sample from each of those areas to give you a better cross section.

On a bother note, I'm not taking any chances with my 3 1/2 month old pup. She's already taking the monthly tick and flea pill but she also got a Lyme vaccination the last time we went to the vet a couple of weeks ago. She has to go back in a few weeks to get the booster for it. Even though only 5-10% of dogs get Lyme disease when bitten from ticks I figure why take the chance.

You'd think if there were pills dogs could take to ward off or kill ticks and fleas they'd be able to develop such a pill and a Lyme Disease vaccination for human beings.

[boxhitch]

That stuff works for me until I step out of the truck lolFar better off to use a permethrin product to kill the B@$+@rds , more effective and longer lasting
Can be made at home from concentrate, or bought as a spray for horses and livestock.

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

So the tick thread on the Van Island section got my wheels spinning.

I have talked to my doctor a few times about Lyme but he tells me it is virtually non-existant West of the Rockies. At the same time, I have seen maps that show places in southwest BC (my hunting spot included) listed as high risk. I am curious who is right, as I get bit several times a year. To date I have had over 50 ticks in me and hundreds on me. Very few engorged for more than a day.

I read about a test kit called "Care Plus Tick Test" and found it at London Drugs. It is going to cost me quite a bit, but why not? This experiment is going to be wicked cool.

I am going to by 15-20 test kits at around $15 each. I am going to collect 15 adult deer ticks from my hunting spot (I can do this just by walking through a little brush in painter gear)

This will either put me at ease or educate a doctor. Either way it is going to be an awesome win.

Downside is it will cost me $200-300 but it will give me something to mess around with this weekend if there are still no bears around my area.

I am excited. Anyone else interested in this experiment or am I just nuts?This is a great idea and amazing! You're right to be excited. Thank you for doing this research for us. People blow way more money than that daily. People also live off of way less monthly.

It's all a matter of perspective. Enjoy your research!

[scotty30-06]

I hunt a lot in region 2..probably similar areas as you and never been bite or hell even seen any down here.

[caddisguy]

mastercaster hitting multiple areas in Region 2 crossed my mind as it would certainly be more representative of the entire region. I definitely had some decisions to make about the parameters of the test. The reason we decided to stick with one area is that we did not want the testing to spread too thin. We want to be able to detect Lyme presence as low as 5-10%. My logic could be off, but I believe an area which has a higher concentration of ticks is will also have a higher concentration of Lyme as it has the vehicle to spread.

Also, the reason this area has a high concentration of ticks is because animals from all over use the habitat. Some might have seen my other posts showing this, but despite it being Region 2, the habitat is used by whitetails, moose, along with mules, Blacktails, bobcats, cougars, bears, grouse, etc. There is also a large variety of birds, rodents and lizards. What I am getting at, is the ticks from this one little pocket are coming from all over the place and will hitch rides all over the place. Guaranteed this spot will be fairly representative of Chilliwack, Hope, but will somewhat implicate areas further out like Manning, Princeton, etc by animals with 4 legs alone. Right now those ticks are all waiting around where they nested on trails they picked up animal urine. They are eagerly waiting to hitch rides on the bears. With all the birds, I can't even guess. This is the reason we decided to focus on this one area and be as thorough as possible.

Boxhitch raised a good point about the test saying it is for ticks that have bitten you. I would think this is just so people don't go around testing every tick they catch crawling as there is no point... at least for normal people. I would think the less "food" in the ticks stomach means a higher concentration of bacteria, making the test more accurate. That said, if the test depends on any sort of reaction with said bacteria and blood, this test will be skewed towards false negatives. I would need to get some answers and if necessary we could do a second phase on ticks taken from a bear.

I am going to pick up those test kits today... should get an interesting look!!

[J_T]

I've had a lot of exposure to ticks so consequently, like mosquitoes, I never worry about them. Just pluck em and burn em. I am becoming a bit more aware of the concerns with Lyme disease, so I would be interested in your results.

[albravo2]

Call me a wet rag, but living with Lyme for the past 5 years has made me a bit cranky. I feel like someone should be pointing out that your survey is far from scientific proof of anything. You are talking about sampling a minute number of ticks over a minute time period in a minute portion of a minute corner of BC.

And that assumes your 'test kit' is scientifically accurate to start with.

If you come up with zero incidence of Lyme you would be unwise to stop worrying about it. Similarly, if you come up with a 100% incidence of Lyme you would be unwise to stop going into the woods.

I think those kits are meant to test ticks that you pull off after they have already bitten. If you are bit every time you go into the woods, I'd consider the kit rather than living on antibiotics after every hunting or scouting trip. Weird thing about Lyme is it can live undetected in your system for decades, then hit you like a ton of bricks.

All that said, it sounds like a fun experiment. I just wouldn't count on it as proof or disproof of anything with consequences like Lyme.

[caddisguy]

Be careful...a close friend has Lyme and it's awful. She gets forgetful, exhausted, out of sorts, etc. Kinda sucks when I'm paying her to do work for me!

This testing will be done very safely. The risk of being bitten will be far less than the average day hunting. I will be suited up in white coveralls instead of camo and everything will be sealed up pretty good and caddisgirl will be checking me immediately after quick dips in the brush. I might even get fancy with stick wrapped with a white towel and a hand warmer inside. Urine might or might not be involved.

It is going to be funny if we run into another hunter or any sort of outdoor user this weekend. Very slim change, but it will be particularly funny we down a bear wearing all white. With that in mind, if we do see significant sign, tick catching will become more reactive than proactive and will likely spread across two weekends instead of one.

[caddisguy]

Call me a wet rag, but living with Lyme for the past 5 years has made me a bit cranky. I feel like someone should be pointing out that your survey is far from scientific proof of anything. You are talking about sampling a minute number of ticks over a minute time period in a minute portion of a minute corner of BC.

And that assumes your 'test kit' is scientifically accurate to start with.

If you come up with zero incidence of Lyme you would be unwise to stop worrying about it. Similarly, if you come up with a 100% incidence of Lyme you would be unwise to stop going into the woods.

I think those kits are meant to test ticks that you pull off after they have already bitten. If you are bit every time you go into the woods, I'd consider the kit rather than living on antibiotics after every hunting or scouting trip. Weird thing about Lyme is it can live undetected in your system for decades, then hit you like a ton of bricks.

All that said, it sounds like a fun experiment. I just wouldn't count on it as proof or disproof of anything with consequences like Lyme.

Information, variables, results and conclusions are all different things. The objective we have described is very narrow in scope. Obviously the results of this one test will not be close to conclusive of anything that should change anyones habits. That would be like someone saying there are no Whitetails in Region 2 because they have been out hunting hundreds of times and haven't seen one. Any result will lead to more questions. ie:

All negative. Do these test kits work? Should we try in June next year? Or same month differernt spot?

20% Positive. Is it just this one area? Is it just this time of year? Did it have anything to do with the long winter? Is there a higher rodent population this year?

You have to look at everything and question everything. I am not really looking to alter my habits based on the results. As mentioned previously this is mostly a curiosity. If we came out with a high number of positives, I would certainly use that to provide evidence of one example of a high lyme concentration to those who say lyme is incredibly rare in the area. If the test was all negative, it would put me a little more at ease in this particular spot, but I would still assume every tick has Lyme.

There will be a result to speculate either way. We will learn something. We are not going to come back and say "20% of all ticks in BC are carrying lyme disease 100% of the year" nor will we come back and say "All negative. There is no Lyme in BC". It will be "We tested X number of adult female deer ticks from Y area with Z test kit in B month and C tested D". There are more variables than anyone could imagine aside from a team of biologists working full time or something like this for years. In this case, we are keeping it very simple and specific. I do believe this result will be somewhat representative of Chilliwack/Hope for the present time, but would not alter my own behaviour or suggest anyone else do so.

Maybe the results will inspire others to follow up with other tests in different areas or at different times. Maybe we can make a spark that will start a whole fire that leads to something positive by drawing more attention. I am glad you brought this up though incase anyone has the wrong idea. Nobody should alter their behaviour based on this survey. We will do the survey, specify the exact parameters used to carry out the survey and provide the result.

[35rem]

I think you can save yourself the trouble as the kit has already been tested independently:

https://parasitesandvectors.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1756-3305-6-338

For those that do not want to read whole article; here is the conclusion:

"This self-test is not suitable for reducing the NNT in post-exposure prophylaxis as it missed all the obvious early Lyme borreliosis cases."

[Spy]

What I have found over many years of living with ticks they either like the way you taste or they don't.

[Walking Buffalo]

Caddisguy,

To increase your catch rate, use a tick drag net. It's just some cloth and a rope.

And if you catch a fat one, you can do this experiment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz0pp33BX_E

[caddisguy]

I think you can save yourself the trouble as the kit has already been tested independently:

https://parasitesandvectors.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1756-3305-6-338

For those that do not want to read whole article; here is the conclusion:

"This self-test is not suitable for reducing the NNT in post-exposure prophylaxis as it missed all the obvious early Lyme borreliosis cases."

This is bad. I am re-thinking the use of these tests. Is anyone else able to find any information that shows successful use of the tests? I would be ok with 50% false negative as long as I have a ballpark, but it seems in this case, 0% of 10 confirmed cases were detected by the kit. We might need another means... maybe the ones you mail in. The only other way this will work is if I take every tick the bites me to the doctor lol

Thank you very much for posting this 35rem. You might have saved me some time and money.

[caddisguy]

I engaged a few other hunting groups to see if anyone has any experience with the kit or can refute the material provided by 35rem. I also wrote to Care Plus to give them a chance verify the integrity/accuracy of the kit:

-----
Hello,

We are interested in purchasing 20 of your test kits to conduct a survey/experiment of ticks in our area.

While discussing this with the local hunting community, one of our members posted the following study which indicates that in 10 confirmed and several suspected cases of Lyme, the test resulted in a 0% accuracy: The study can be found here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4235040/

As you can imagine, this is very discouraging. We wanted to reach out to you directly to see if you can refute the findings of this study in any way or provide evidence of consistent success in detecting borrelia burgdorferi in ticks. This would be necessary for us, as we need to be able to support the integrity of our findings.

Thank you.
-----

At most, this is a set-back. I am disappointed but see this as an overall positive situation (ie: results are already in and we are potentially shedding light on a scam) ... as it stands, the experiment might be delayed until we secure another avenue of testing.

[boxhitch]

Don't be too hasty. That report seems to say the kit is poor at predicting the appearance of the rash ring (EM).
CanLyme says the rash only appears in 3% of subjects
CanLyme has some good info

The more I read the more I feel my skin crawl. Found a tick on my scalp this a.m. from a hike Sunday, after two showers and a complete change of clothes and a body inspection (b@$+@rd must have fallen off in the house and then re-attached !!!)

[caddisguy]

Don't be too hasty. That report seems to say the kit is poor at predicting the appearance of the rash ring (EM).
CanLyme says the rash only appears in 3% of subjects
CanLyme has some good info

The more I read the more I feel my skin crawl. Found a tick on my scalp this a.m. from a hike Sunday, after two showers and a complete change of clothes and a body inspection (b@$+@rd must have fallen off in the house and then re-attached !!!)

The way I interpruted the study is that they tested ticks in 10 cases of doctor-confirmed EM and several other cases of suspected EM (in addition to 100+ other ticks where there were no symptoms) In each case the, tick involved tested negative with Care Plus but positive in conventional lab tests.

It certainly does not look good, but I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt by seeking out other users of the product and giving Care Plus a chance to speak to the study.

Btw, we have found a number of the hitch hikers who made it all the way home. We have found them in the car, crawling up the wall and my personal favorite was when that come out of the barrel of my rifle when I put a patch cloth through.

[albravo2]

Caddis,

How about talking to a lab that could process a few dozen smeared ticks?

Not sure if that would be cost effective or not, but if I recall correctly one of my Lyme doctors sent a tick she got off her dog for testing by a friend that is a Lyme researcher. Not sure what the result was, but she apparently took a dose of antibiotics herself, just in case. A few years of treating Lyme patients seems to have made her a bit gun shy;-).

[wideopenthrottle]

wow caddis you are one heck of a tick magnet....in many years of being in the bush I found spring is the worst for ticks and I have only ever once walked through a nest of them where I picked up nearly 50 (29 on one leg and 18 on the other) after walking less than 10 feet into a grassy patch I was clearing branches out of to set up a tent...I was wearing sweats at the time and they seemed to really be able to grab on easy to the sweats.....other than that, I have only ever found one or two at a time and almost all of the time I found them before they were attached/feeding....as kids we used to pull them off the dog and squish them on the sidewalk...sometimes they would be nearly as big as a grape...with the purple colour the blood goes they did look like squashed blueberries/grapes/paintballs

[caddisguy]

Caddis,

How about talking to a lab that could process a few dozen smeared ticks?

Not sure if that would be cost effective or not, but if I recall correctly one of my Lyme doctors sent a tick she got off her dog for testing by a friend that is a Lyme researcher. Not sure what the result was, but she apparently took a dose of antibiotics herself, just in case. A few years of treating Lyme patients seems to have made her a bit gun shy;-).

Working on it. We just need to look around for a reputable independent lab and open up communication with them. We are willing to pay, so as long as the cost isn't outrageous, this is still going to happen. It won't be as much fun as sitting around camp messing with test tubes, but it will still be interesting :)

[Linksman313]

Doc is out to lunch, moved down here a few years ago and cannot believe how many cases of Lyme in young adults, scary!

[caddisguy]

Just an update on Care Plus. I attempted to contact them earlier via the contact form on their website, as well as direct email.

The direct email (info@careplus.eu) bounces back with a "relay denied" error from the host their MX record is pointing too. This basically means that they currently do not have have any email services set up with the company that is supposedly hosting their email.

There is a phone number on the site that is in Europe. I might give that a try if all else fails.

[BigfishCanada]

Canadian doctors still dont even believe in it, get a new doctor Lymes disease is in BC

[caddisguy]

My doctor is pretty good overall, just perhaps a little misguided on Lyme which has only come up casually. This experiment isn't about me at all. It would be cool to show him first hand evidence though.

[boxhitch]

Interesting timing
https://canlyme.com/2017/04/11/canadian-scientists-physicians-and-advocates-unite-in-request-to-minister-philpott-to-insist-upon-an-ethical-process/

[Stillhunt]

Just a little tid bit for you...I have been using vitamin B3 in pill form to keep mosquitoes and ticks from biting. It's the same stuff as in the patches, but only a couple of bucks a bottle at any health/pharmacy. It lasts about 3 hours for a couple pills and water soluble so it won't build up in your system. I can watch the bugs land on me and take right off. It sure beats the stink/film of Deet.

[WesHarm]

Stillhunt that sounds cool, never heard of it before but i often drink things that contain high concentrates of B3, could be why i rarely get bit.... Caddis should test that theory out!!

[caddisguy]

Sorry guys. This has all been put on hold until the testing situation has been figured out.

Some news about the Care Plus Test Kit should be coming out within the next week or so and I will put it here.

I appreciate all the enthusiasm and curiosity... can't wait to share a nifty little science experiment once we get everything in place.

[lostmind]

Just an update on Care Plus. I attempted to contact them earlier via the contact form on their website, as well as direct email.

The direct email (info@careplus.eu) bounces back with a "relay denied" error from the host their MX record is pointing too. This basically means that they currently do not have have any email services set up with the company that is supposedly hosting their email.

There is a phone number on the site that is in Europe. I might give that a try if all else fails.

Wow, that is sad. As a guy who works in the tech industry that just screams scam. :/

[lostmind]

Just a little tid bit for you...I have been using vitamin B3 in pill form to keep mosquitoes and ticks from biting. It's the same stuff as in the patches, but only a couple of bucks a bottle at any health/pharmacy. It lasts about 3 hours for a couple pills and water soluble so it won't build up in your system. I can watch the bugs land on me and take right off. It sure beats the stink/film of Deet.

What dosage are you taking? I take vitamin b pills lately but never while out hunting/camping. Maybe I should start bringing them!

[lostmind]

Sorry guys. This has all been put on hold until the testing situation has been figured out.

Some news about the Care Plus Test Kit should be coming out within the next week or so and I will put it here.

I appreciate all the enthusiasm and curiosity... can't wait to share a nifty little science experiment once we get everything in place.

I am greatly interested. My spring bear hunt had me covered in ticks. Hell, I had a tick land on me while in the truck! I went to bed one night and found two had wriggled their way inside the tent trailer... these things give me the shivers. Imagine getting lyme and becoming allergic to meat?!

[finngun]

Damn caddisguy, you are one chick...I mean tick magnet!!! :)

that is jell bells style...like it ...:cool::eek::D

[Wagonmaster]

Sensitivity of a point of care tick-test for the development of Lyme ... (https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjstqHa6p_TAhWIhVQKHTsLBN4QFggiMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov%2Fpmc%2Fart icles%2FPMC4235040%2F&usg=AFQjCNGfarn3Qhe5W17lQmSPQvUx5CGGAg&bvm=bv.152180690,d.cGw)

Might want to read this before you spend your money. In short, the results showed 0% sensitivity in that confirmed cases still tested negative. The closing statement is "this self-test is not suitable for reducing the NNT in post-exposure prophylaxis as it missed all the obvious early Lyme borreliosis cases." In short, they tested the ticks from over a hundred individuals. All tested negative, even though 14 of the ticks were in fact positive. So, it would appear the test does not work.

[caddisguy]

Sensitivity of a point of care tick-test for the development of Lyme ... (https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjstqHa6p_TAhWIhVQKHTsLBN4QFggiMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov%2Fpmc%2Fart icles%2FPMC4235040%2F&usg=AFQjCNGfarn3Qhe5W17lQmSPQvUx5CGGAg&bvm=bv.152180690,d.cGw)

Might want to read this before you spend your money. In short, the results showed 0% sensitivity in that confirmed cases still tested negative. The closing statement is "this self-test is not suitable for reducing the NNT in post-exposure prophylaxis as it missed all the obvious early Lyme borreliosis cases." In short, they tested the ticks from over a hundred individuals. All tested negative, even though 14 of the ticks were in fact positive. So, it would appear the test does not work.

Yep! This was posted yesterday and there was further discussion. To summarize, our experiment is on hold pending reliable testing. We are exploring a few different avenues.

There should also be some news coming out about the Care Plus test kits in the near future.

[Stillhunt]

What dosage are you taking? I take vitamin b pills lately but never while out hunting/camping. Maybe I should start bringing them!

I will dig the bottle out and let you know. There are many variations on B vitamins and B3 is the type I see used in mosquito patches. Call me cheap but I didn't want to spend $15 on patches when a $6 bottle of the same thing has lasted myself many outings. I have found ticks on my clothes many times but never been bit. (Knock on head (wood)).

[Stillhunt]

Sorry, my bad! I checked the bottle and it is B1 (thiamine) that you want to take. I am 6'1 cut to 195lbs during hunting season, and take 2 100mg pills every 3 hours or so. Off season I weigh 215lbs and will take 2 or 3 pills depending on the area.

[Asco]

Update from me:

never seen a tick before other than in the crotch of a dead animal.
Until today. Spent the day in reg 3 quadding and walking. Got in the truck around 6 pm
Noticed a little critter on my leg after I'd been on the highway half an hour.
Stopped the truck and got out. 18 TICKS on me. Nasty. I will be doing the thiamine as well as horse tick spray.
My research says the good human spray is not allowed in Canada but the horse stuff is. Stays effective on clothing for 6 washes or so. So spray then wash then hunt. I'd rather have to be more aware of my wind than get covered in ticks again.

No ticks bit me, but the one I found in my chest hair freaked me out a bit :)

[caddisguy]

Update from me:

never seen a tick before other than in the crotch of a dead animal.
Until today. Spent the day in reg 3 quadding and walking. Got in the truck around 6 pm
Noticed a little critter on my leg after I'd been on the highway half an hour.
Stopped the truck and got out. 18 TICKS on me. Nasty. I will be doing the thiamine as well as horse tick spray.
My research says the good human spray is not allowed in Canada but the horse stuff is. Stays effective on clothing for 6 washes or so. So spray then wash then hunt. I'd rather have to be more aware of my wind than get covered in ticks again.

No ticks bit me, but the one I found in my chest hair freaked me out a bit :)

Surprise ticks on the highway suck... pun not intended (afterthought)

We did our best to avoid them this weekend and didn't hunt overly hard. caddisgirl noticed a tick on her glove shortly after hugging me lol

We put it in a little tube. It's an adult female deer tick. Interesting to watch. Things I have learned:

- they seem to play dead if you stress them out by shaking to tube
- after being left out in -5C temps, it also looks dead (shriveled up like a spider) but as soon as you touch the tube, it sticks its legs out trying to latch onto whatever is warm
- it can walk across the tube (5 inches) in about 10-15 seconds. Given these beasts can sense heat, co2, ammonia, etc from a good distance, I can see how sitting in the same spot for an hour or even still hunting results in ticks
- I also learned the house rules regarding pet ticks... they must be kept inside of a container, inside of another container. This is the letter of the caddisgirl law. It is not negotiable. Long distance tick races are prohibited in the house. Experiments to see which beer it is more attracted to must be done outdoors.

FIY, on a more serious note: Regarding Care Plus, I have emailed CBC (they ran the article pumping Care Plus last year) as well as London Drugs (one of the biggest retailers carrying the product) and neither have responded, so definitely story-worthy for another news outlet.

I did receive a reply from Care Plus in broken English assuring me they are confident the product works based on "studies from their supplier" (not provided of course)

[Dannybuoy]

Are those deer keds or ticks ? keds have six legs ... tics have 8 . I think only the tics carry the disease

[caddisguy]

@DannyBuoy: 100% adult female black legged deer tick. I can post up some pics of this one and others. I have some pics of male deer ticks as well as dog to ticks too.

Adult female deer ticks have red/orange and black coloration, similar to that of a ladybug. Males are all black but typically smaller in the adult stage. The tick we have running around in our test tube is an adult female but on the smaller side.

FYI they are more attracted to Caribou than Bud Light if anyone wondered ... kind of makes sense...

[delboybc]

I work in health care and the group I work for posted this latest research on our Thursday news letter, interesting timing as it is a research article from one of our doctor's on Lyme Disease in BC. Has some good maps and surveillance data they collected over a few years.

here is the link.
HTML http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/vbz.2015.1854
PDF http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/vbz.2015.1854

[Fella]

I've never had a tick on me yet, my dog has had 2 or 3 since January though, I was able to catch em pretty quick though. Ugly things with greenish asses.

[Rob Chipman]

4 engorged ticks on the dog last weekend, and several that hadn't bit yet. Various areas outside Pemberton.

[caddisguy]

We caught 12 black legged deer ticks this weekend. 4 males and 8 females. None engorged afiak but we just got home and haven't stripped down yet.

We have actually started busting some of these ticks before they get on us. This weekend I noticed two that were both hanging out on the underside of branches. The first one I noticed because I was looking and when I got within 1 foot, I could see two little legs sticking out. I also failed to catch either for my collection. In both cases they were quick to fall off the branch when I tried to get them to latch onto the container. In hind sight it would have been better to let them latch onto my sleeve.

So... I now have a vile with a total of 13 live ticks (one female from last week) ... Interestingly enough, one of the small males appears to have engorged himself into the under side of one of the larger females. It looks like he is biting it, but will need a magnifying glass or zoom lenses to know for sure. I don't think he is just hitching a ride or doing her tick-style.

I am still trying to figure out the whole testing thing. Care Plus claims the study that shows their kits work 0% of the time was an "old study using version 1.0" and that the new improved 2.0 is "95% accurate" ... for real! They provided me with two of their own studies saying so... that said, the studies they provided pre-date the independent study. London Drugs played a proxy in the communication and no surprise they seem OK taking Care Plus / Tropicas word at face value, despite the test kits shady past. I think I need to try and get a hold of the author of the original study and maybe follow up with Tropical for explanation about what is different in the "2.0" kit and what makes them think the 2013 study is "older" than their 2011 study.

[Ohwildwon]

http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/episodes/ticked-off-the-mystery-of-lyme-disease

More info...:)

[Gone_Fishin_]

Have noticed my region 2 spots are loaded in recent years with these little buggers

Caddisguy; usually find about a dozen or more each outing from the area you venture into as well.

Not sure how you go about checking yourself when done hiking but a lint roller does wonders to find/remove them from you. Always keep one in my bag this time of year, pull it out numerous times during a hike and give my pants/arms a quick rub with it. It always amazes me to see how small some are... creeps the heck outta me

[caddisguy]

Have noticed my region 2 spots are loaded in recent years with these little buggers

Caddisguy; usually find about a dozen or more each outing from the area you venture into as well.

Not sure how you go about checking yourself when done hiking but a lint roller does wonders to find/remove them from you. Always keep one in my bag this time of year, pull it out numerous times during a hike and give my pants/arms a quick rub with it. It always amazes me to see how small some are... creeps the heck outta me

That is a really great idea about the lint roller. Will have to try that. The male deer ticks a pretty small and black... very hard to spot. We have found them in the larva and nymph states as well and they look like a poppy seed. You can barely see legs.

In this container I have with 14 ticks I am seeing all these little tiny black things and don't know what the heck they are... maybe poops or something.

[walks with deer]

Hmm my cousin runs a biological testing lab for fish and animals I will give her a call...

I could collect some kamloops ticks for the experiment. Bc wildlife park is full

[caddisguy]

Hmm my cousin runs a biological testing lab for fish and animals I will give her a call...

I could collect some kamloops ticks for the experiment. Bc wildlife park is full

If they are able to test ticks, can you let me know if they would do it for LML ticks and what the cost would be. Not sure if it will be possible to actually ship them lol ... I might need to drive out there, but that is fine. I haven't been to Kamloops in a year and a half.