Studying Contour Maps for Big Buck Spots ?

[Jelvis]

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[steveo32]

Jelly roll it is way easier to just get out in the hills and find the elevation where the big bucks are at and just keep following until you get one. Contour lines are not always right on maps and they dont always show you some pretty country. So your best bet is get off the internet and get out scouting, if that is not possiable well i guess you are sh*t out of luck:wink:

best of luck this season and hope you actually find some big bucks if you ever get off hbc:mrgreen:


As for me my scouting consists of finding clients animals and i will be flying out of kamloops on the 18th so 2 days for another guide season!!!!


steve

[Jelvis]

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[steveo32]

jelly roll yes i am saying even professioinals mess up trust me i have seen some really shitty maps! And yes i am actually a guide so my summer scouting for muleys is over.

Oh well that still does not mean i wont be chasing the big buggers when i get home!

good luck jelvis but scouting actually involves getting out of the city and looking :wink:

steve

[hunter1947]

I just pound the hills there there ,just go get them.

[Jelvis]

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[Steeleco]

IIRC most maps we get are NAD27, North American Datum 1927, that's how old some of the info is 1927 Cartography has improved sine then I hope.

I have one map that with the use of my GPS says I should be in the middle of Chealis lake!!

[Jelvis]

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[SavageShooter]

Steelco, maps made today can still be NAD27. Nad27 is the projection used and not necesarilly when the data was collected or last updated.
It was created in 1927, but is still valid and quite ingenious. A projection allows map makers to take a curved earth and project the features onto a flat map so that the horizontal distances and coordinates are accurate. This projection is very good for traditional maps and users. Nad83 is the newer projection and usually used for projecting GPS coordinates etc.

Hey, I guess those years of survey schooling were good for something, besides membership in the beer of the month club.

SS

[Steeleco]

Thanks SS, I'm always willing to learn new stuff, I really like to get back into orienteering like I used to do with me Dad when I was a kid, but the clock ticks too fast!!

[Jelvis]

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[hunter1947]

I find that white tails like shaded places to rub ,like swamp bottoms.

[Jelvis]

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[gearjunkierob]

IIRC most maps we get are NAD27, North American Datum 1927, that's how old some of the info is 1927 Cartography has improved sine then I hope.

I have one map that with the use of my GPS says I should be in the middle of Chealis lake!!


Steelco - you probably know this already so apologies if this seems like a no brainer. Because the map was made using the NAD27 datum, and most GPS units have the ability to switch from datum to datum (using a complicated set of mathamatical equations), you have to check every map you pick up to find the datum it was produced in and then adjust your gps so that your map and the gps are "talking the same language." The difference in the datum your map is using vs the datum your GPS is converting into can be quite large, resulting in the user being kilometers off the position the GPS "tells" them they are in on the map. Irregardless, GPS's aren't foolproof, and the position of the satellites in the sky, surrounding topography, etc can skew the satellite data your GPS actually recieves. I like my GPS, but I'll never take the GPS out somewhere without having my map and compass! Cheers,

Rob

[Steeleco]

Thanks Rob, that's one thing I did know. :wink: I also use UTM rather than Long/Lat with the plotter on my compass I can place myself on a the map quite accurately.

Like I said, you never do stop learning!!

[Jelvis]

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[JMac]

Jelly Roll in addition to topos I got two words for ya "Google Earth". Check it out you'll feel like "Jel Almighty" lookin down on the world! Nothing beats up to date air photos and Google Earth. Meadows, Slides, basins, passes, timber, creeks etc it's all there and in colour. Recent logging roads show ya new access points to hoof in from as well.

[moosinaround]

Take your topo map and use it in conjunction with the satellite images used in google earth. You can change the sat image to show a 3d profile. If you are somewhat familiar with the area youi can interpret what the veg will look like. You can also order air photos from geometrics companies like douglas photography in prince george. This is a good way of scouting an area. Get steroe pairs and buy a cheap stereo scope from A forestry supply company like Neville crosby or Canadian forestry eqipment. This will show you topography vegetation types, and if you get 1:10000 scale photos you could even see the mulies taking a shi/!!! Anyways these places can direct you into the right data you will need. Moosin

[dana]

I love looking at highcountry in stereo. If you know where to look, you can even see the generational beds in the shale. 8)

[Jelvis]

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Mr. Dean]

Being able to overlay waypoints onto a a good topo is VERY cool.

[Mik]

This is where I think that new Bushnell "ONYX 200CR" GPS would come in handy, with its overlay technology.

Thanks for all the great info, however,I have one question though, what is this "Stereo" that you guys are talkin' about?:confused:

[WoodOx]

In my opinion, best way to start is with iMap BC. that gives you a whole lot of options with layers. After this, order your respective topo maps, or print them from imap. If you need more info you can reference points from iMap to google earth, and back and fourth.

Regardless, I spent 90% of my map time on imap due to its versatility.

Take a peek and tell me if you like the tool: http://maps.gov.bc.ca/imf50/imf.jsp?site=imapbc

[Mr. Dean]

This is where I think that new Bushnell "ONYX 200CR" GPS would come in handy, with its overlay technology.

Thanks for all the great info, however,I have one question though, what is this "Stereo" that you guys are talkin' about?:confused:

I think Dana's talkin about bouncing around in his jeep/truck with the tunes cranked!

[GoatGuy]

Ya if your looking specifically for whitetails you want thicker underbrush so the north facing slopes would be better. Less sunshine, moister and shadier, good point 47. Hunt in the lower portions, the foothills in the valley bottoms. Contour lines on the edges of the valley floor.

North facing slopes for the big whitetails in the thicker underbrush?

Sounds like the perfect spot to be hanging out in mid November hanging out with the chipmunks in waist deep snow.

[Jelvis]

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[Wildman]

In my opinion, best way to start is with iMap BC. that gives you a whole lot of options with layers. After this, order your respective topo maps, or print them from imap. If you need more info you can reference points from iMap to google earth, and back and fourth.

Regardless, I spent 90% of my map time on imap due to its versatility.

Take a peek and tell me if you like the tool: http://maps.gov.bc.ca/imf50/imf.jsp?site=imapbc

iMap is good but MapView is wayyyyyy better. Same thing just more layers and you need to set up a BCEID account.

[Jelvis]

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[bighornbob]

Jellyroll

How the hell do you kill a buck that lives on flat ground?? And how does he sleep if he likes to look down on flat ground. I guess he counts ants until he falls asleep.

You forgot one very important thing about reading lines on contour maps. But since your the expert I will let you tell the people what you forgot.

BHB

[Jelvis]

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[bighornbob]

Jelly

Are the bucks of the north river distincly different from from Mule deer everywhere else??? A buck will use what available to him. A saskatchewan mulie has flat grasslands and river gullies. If Bedding in the river gully, looking down will not work to well for him. I have seen buck bed down 20 ft from roads and they only duck their heads into the grass when a truck drives by.

You still have not mentioned the important thing about reading contour lines. I guess you should maybe take that online Geography 101 course that TRU offers as your missing something big.

BHB

[dana]

Funny Jelly has not heard of looking at airphotos in sterio. I know the technology has been around as long as Jelly has. It really is cool to compare old black and whites with the latest flight lines. Good way to see what has changed in the last 10, 20 or 30 years. Jelly would be advised to try that, change I mean. :)

[Jelvis]

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[bighornbob]

Jelly roll

You still have not told us the most important thing about looking at topo maps. Come on let the rookie topo guys know????

BHB

[Jelvis]

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[bighornbob]

Jelly

Well looks like somebody did some internet research:mrgreen:

The lines on a contour map are lines of elevation not lines of distance. The scale tells you the distance between the lines. The scale is important becuase if you are looking at a 1:250,000 (1 cm on the map equals 250,000cm on the ground or 2.5km on the ground) countour lines may look very close together and you would think it is a cliff and not hunt it. But on a 1:20,000 (1 cm on the map equals 200m) what you thought was a steep cliff is actually a very climable hill where the deer could be hanging out as you put it.

Still trying to figure out where the mule deer in saskatchewan if they only bed on ridges??

BHB

[Jelvis]

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[bighornbob]

That's good bob, but kinda redundant, for this thread, this one's to study contour lines for direction, and, make shapes of elevated land forms on a topo map to find bucks.

That was my whole point to find bucks. If you are using a 1:250,000 scale map you will only see a few lines and it will just look like a staright slope. But if you get a 1:20000 map what you thought was a staright slope is a actually a hill with ridges and gullies and creeks that would not be shown with a 1:250,000 map.


KISS, Keep it simple stupid. This is true but you have to put some detail and thought process in there for stuff to make sence for others. That leads me part of your post, as per usual, I have no idea what you are talking about .

BHB

[GoatGuy]

Jelly

Well looks like somebody did some internet research:mrgreen:

The lines on a contour map are lines of elevation not lines of distance. The scale tells you the distance between the lines. The scale is important becuase if you are looking at a 1:250,000 (1 cm on the map equals 250,000cm on the ground or 2.5km on the ground) countour lines may look very close together and you would think it is a cliff and not hunt it. But on a 1:20,000 (1 cm on the map equals 200m) what you thought was a steep cliff is actually a very climable hill where the deer could be hanging out as you put it.

Still trying to figure out where the mule deer in saskatchewan if they only bed on ridges??

BHB

And to think all this time I thought those lines were game trails?:confused:

[Jelvis]

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[oscar makonka]

Jelly

Still trying to figure out where the mule deer in saskatchewan if they only bed on ridges??

BHB

favorite place they like to bed if theres muleys around handy to canola fields, they like to bed out in the middle of canola fields this time of year, nobody bothers them, fewer bugs, cool soft ground, they disappear when they lie down, sometimes you catch them coming or going but you can glass for hours looking at a sea of yellow flowers hoping one has his head up and you spy some velvet.

[moosinaround]

topo maps are interpretations of the air photos or sat images. If you can see in stereo, it is better than topo maps, more accurate. Sat images are even better these days especially at the larger scales. A 1:5000 to 1:10000 scale air photo, along with a good topo map will work for identificatio of roads swamps, using the topo to get into the general area, and the air photo to pick out game trails, nat. opening in the forest, or fence lines. It could almost be looked at as cheating? i'm not sure how people feel about this, but with a phot and a topo map along with a compass you sure shouldn't get lost out there. Moosin

[Walksalot]

While looking at a map is a very good way to get an idea of the terrain but the only way to really know is to go out and look for yourself. It may look steep but unless it is a vertical there may be game trails or benches. Remember if the contour lines are 100 meters apart any convolutions less than 100 meters within those lines won't show on the map.
Air photos are an excellent way to look at an area. Using a stereoscope(sp) it gives you a very good idea what the terrain and timber type is like. Having said that, air photos are a bit harder to come by and unless you know the flight lines it can be a bit difficult to get the right photos.

[gearjunkierob]

Thanks Rob, that's one thing I did know. :wink: I also use UTM rather than Long/Lat with the plotter on my compass I can place myself on a the map quite accurately.

Like I said, you never do stop learning!!

Figured you probably did, I've just seen so many people making that mistake out there I wanted to make sure! Cheers,

Rob

[Jelvis]

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[mrdoog]

Study all the maps you want.
Sit around and yap about how the maps were developed.
Discuss how many animals should be in the area.

Get a Topo map, get off you arse and go looking.

[Steeleco]

Get a Topo map, get off you arse and go looking.

Now your talking, your eyeballs will prove or disprove your theories. Homework's good, legwork is better :wink::wink:

[horshur]

Hunters should know the importance of the level of elevation. What does elevation affect? If you look at a topo map contour line, you will see a figure written, in numbers, either measured in feet or metres. Every five contour lines in elevation you'll see the number. Each line is 100 ft in elevation on most older topo maps. Since deer especially mule deer and blacktails go up and down in elevation in their habitat. In april they leave winter range and follow the snowline up as it melts. By October 15th even the older bigger bucks start heading lower. Use your topo elevation lines to see the high points in the topo and the lower points. Try to connect where you think the bucks will migrate, on which trail, or contour and check it out. Mule deer will winter under 3900 ft most seasons, in the Kamloops area for instance and live in summer range over 4000 ft and higher. Elevation causes temperature change and humidity change which affects plants nutitional values. Elevation can seperate you from the competition, if you climb higher and leave others behind. You can see what others don't. Elevation is important, to think about, it should be a factor in your hunting plan.

Elevation is misleading---I have found plenty of sheds up high--6000ft even--lot's of places have--for lack of a better discription--micro climates--steepness-wind-south facing--feed --ect can keep deer up much higher than you would suspect--of course many deer will be down--but mule deer continue too surprise me of where they will live. Think outside the box--I was in an area this past winter---deep snow--sled was struggling--could not pull a few hills--last place I would look but some deer were living well--big buck sign too.

[Jelvis]

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[GoatGuy]

Elevation is misleading---I have found plenty of sheds up high--6000ft even--lot's of places have--for lack of a better discription--micro climates--steepness-wind-south facing--feed --ect can keep deer up much higher than you would suspect--of course many deer will be down--but mule deer continue too surprise me of where they will live. Think outside the box--I was in an area this past winter---deep snow--sled was struggling--could not pull a few hills--last place I would look but some deer were living well--big buck sign too.

Your talking about things like thermodynamics, lake effect, mountain effect, orographic effect, convergence, divergence, subsidence, advection and on and on.

Many variables which will effect micro climatology based on prevailing weather ---winds, slope direction, physical characteristics (shape, size, elevation of mountains/hills), introduction of water etc., etc., basically physical geography.

Neat stuff Horshur and you're soooooo right - just looking at elevation only gets you a small part of the story. So many other things to look at if you want to find those pocket valleys that have 12" of snow as opposed to 4 or 15 ft.

Maybe jelly can fill us in on that stuff too.

Glad I got the contour lines all figured out now!:wink:

[Jelvis]

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[BCrams]

. All in fun, GG you're all right in my books!

Does that mean GG gets to go hunting with you !

[Mr. Dean]

Glad yer back Jelvis... I missed this stuff.

[GoatGuy]

Is the dust settling in your attic? Was that a brainstorm, total recall moment? Brought on cuz, you had, your second cup, of coffee? A disertation, on the many variables, that affect, basic physical geography? Micro weather systems, and degrees of angles, with mini eco systems higher, then most hunters, went in high school. Big words, little meaning, on their own. Thermodynamics = air rising, and dropping, or moving, on temperature changes. Experiment; Do the following, eat large amounts of hot chilli, pepperoni sticks, pickled eggs, wash down with beer ( of your choice), then observe affect, the warm air starts to move things. Lake affect = Larger water mass, does things, to surrounding area. Example, Makes me think, how will I get around it? That's besides all the other toungue twisting, tantilizing, chart topping, catagories. KISS, an acronym, for, (Keep It Simple Stupid) That's exactly why, you study topos, and their contour lines. What you forgot, Professor, was, how do you find where the big bucks are, by studying topo contour lines? You get a grade of C, for relevant information, and helpful hints. Displayed difficulty in staying on task pertaining to main topic. Studying contour maps for big buck spots. Attitude, D No need to clarify. All in fun, GG you're all right in my books!

Jelly you're a funny guy.

Must have been that second cup of coffee that woke me up - I've actually been wondering around in a trance all week.

With a C I'm still getting a passing grade!:mrgreen:


What Horshur was saying is correct. There are many factors that affect where critters will be- merely looking for a north facing slope at 5000ft in september ain't gonna do it for you, nor is looking for whitetails in north facing swamps. Localized phenoma will help you study. Case and point is the big whities I've been scouting this week. Up relatively high (4000 ft) on a west facing slope - no swamps/marshes etc., not what you'd consider "big buck topo" but there are other things at play than simply looking at contour lines.

Micro climates give you that much more. Ie one valley at 3000ft will have 10 feet of snow and the next valley at the same evelation will only have 12". Why is the question.

This is particularly true in the late fall early spring. Ie - rut/winter range folks are often speaking of west/south facing slopes to look for the deer. In several areas, due to close proximity to large bodies of water deer will often winter and rut on north east facing slopes. Often being on the west side (weather generally moves east) of large bodies of water is actually drier therefore less snow. The body of water also creates a valley effect which often holds warmer air in, releasing less radiation. There are other factors to look at too include size and shape of the mountains ahead of where you're hunting- they will dictate weather conditions in your area.

Same goes for Grizz in the spring. Folks are always saying going after grizz ain't worth it until May or June but if they knew the few valleys that greened up first --- had little snow due to the rain shadow effect they'd realize the grizz are out in April and they're stacked right up.

Same goes for high elevation goats/sheep on winter range - some areas will have 'em right down low other areas are up on the windswept slope.


Those topos give you much more than elevation and grade if you know what you're looking for. :wink:

[bighornbob]

Jelly Bean

You want it back on topic. Studying topo maps to find big bucks.

To truefully answer I find topo maps all but useless for trying to find animals. Topos give you the lay of the land and thats about it. I use them to find out if I can hike out the back of a valley or over the top for sheep hunting and thats about it. Even when they show crreks there may never have been a creek just dry gully. The way you interpret it is all in the eye of the reader. Yah sure the south facing will be drier and the north cooler and shady but you know that wihout looking at a map.

You talk about ridges and gullies but until you get out you have no clue what the vegetative cover or surficial material. Is it a boulder field where a deer wont step becuase of the fear of a broken foot or is it a landslide chute were the deer always seem to browse. Noth that will appear on a topo map.

Now if your are really gun hoh about maps get yourself a forest cover map. This shows boulder fields, alpine areas, forest stands, age of stands, forest distrubance like fire, wind or insects. These maps are great and I would use one way before I looked at a topo map.

BHB

[dana]

Take it one step furthur. Ortho with FC1 and contour layers turned on. Oh yea, having the LRMP wildlife layers on is also a benefit. Now those are some maps worthy of staring at. ;)

[bighornbob]

Yah its always nice when the maps have mule deer winter range or important mule deer habitat as a layer:mrgreen:

BHB

[Walksalot]

Big bucks play the thermals.

[Wildman]

Yah its always nice when the maps have mule deer winter range or important mule deer habitat as a layer:mrgreen:

BHB

Those UWR etc..are a bunch of bull.........I know I make them up. It's a political thing. The best areas for habitat are not allocated to wildlife, why would a logging co do that? They want to make $$$$ therefore, take the best, leave the rest and call it MAMU or UWR or WHA....looks good in the paper and docs, but in the real world..................

[Walksalot]

Those UWR etc..are a bunch of bull.........I know I make them up. It's a political thing. The best areas for habitat are not allocated to wildlife, why would a logging co do that? They want to make $$$$ therefore, take the best, leave the rest and call it MAMU or UWR or WHA....looks good in the paper and docs, but in the real world..................

The best wildlife habitat is either being logged or developed.:wink:

[Walksalot]

Bar none, the best wildlife habitat is created by Mother Nature in the form of wild fires. We humans can lend a hand by the use of prescribed burns.

[Jelvis]

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[Jelvis]

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[Jelvis]

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[Avalanche123]

TRIM Maps are available at a scale of 1:20000

Contours lines are metric in 10m intervals. TRIM maps are usually more update than the round of 1:50000 NTS maps that exist out there.

Whatever map you have, compare it to Google Earth and you'll start to form a 3D image just by looking at the map.

[Jelvis]

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[Jelvis]

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