Federal and Provincial caribou recovery plan

[bigben]

Just heard in a coffee shop talk that the federal and provincial governments are trying to bring the caribou herd back in the southeast region of British Columbia . The mandate is to make sure that our ungulate population deer elk moose are to crash in population so that the predator will also crash so that they can protect the caribou population . This is essential to bring the herd back to respectable numbers so that we will not deem them extinct. Hence the seasons that are liberal through out the province especially on the cow elk and whitetail deer does .My question is how long are we going to allow this to happen before we will see our management of wildlife increase in numbers so this in turn keeps all the users hunters guides and wildlife enthuisist happy . Coffee shop talk but quite interesting information as there is a report out there that you can obtain threw the ministry and read up on it .

[Fisher-Dude]

Just heard in a coffee shop talk that the federal and provincial governments are trying to bring the caribou herd back in the southeast region of British Columbia . The mandate is to make sure that our ungulate population deer elk moose are to crash in population so that the predator will also crash so that they can protect the caribou population . This is essential to bring the herd back to respectable numbers so that we will not deem them extinct. Hence the seasons that are liberal through out the province especially on the cow elk and whitetail deer does .My question is how long are we going to allow this to happen before we will see our management of wildlife increase in numbers so this in turn keeps all the users hunters guides and wildlife enthuisist happy . Coffee shop talk but quite interesting information as there is a report out there that you can obtain threw the ministry and read up on it .




Stay away from coffee shop talk.

You're in the middle of a lot of bullshit over there.

[Bear Chaser]

Stay away from coffee shop talk.

You're in the middle of a lot of bullshit over there.

Fisherdude have you gotten into the electric lettuce you keep accusing others of?
I've heard variations of the same thing and it was confirmed during a public caribou awareness meeting in Fort St John in the spring of 2015. It was directed at industry stakeholders but I wasn't the only resident hunter in attendance. Besides their conclusion that grizzlies tend not to prey on caribou (something I believe given my own experiences viewing both in close vicinty to each other) the main speaker also stated that efforts were made in the lower regions of the province to significantly reduce moose populations in an effort to starve wolves out of caribou wintering areas. Prior to this admission I had pointed out to a close friend employed by the OGC in a caribou study that whoever thought this was a good policy should be taken out for a good beating as even the dimmest idiot would know when the moose were gone the caribou would be eaten. She did not deny that this policy had been put in place.
I agree that most hunters tend to put too much credence into coffee shop talk but this has been discussed on here before by others more knowledgeable than me.

[Cordillera]

You can read the federal recovery for southern mountain caribou here. http://www.registrelep-sararegistry.gc.ca/virtual_sara/files/plans/rs%5Fwoodland%5Fcaribou%5Fbois%5Fs%5Fmtn%5Fpop%5F0 114%5Fe%2Epdf


The federal plan identifies a need to reduce alternate prey (mostly moose). The science behind this is reasonable. In most caribou herd areas in the south part of the province we have been logging in their ranges and that has improved moose habitat and more food equals more moose. More moose over time supports more wolves and more wolves eat more caribou. There are lots of variables that make this relationship imperfect, but as a general rule it is reasonable.

Over the long haul one option is to manage logging and silviculture so it does not produce as much moose browse. That takes decades though.

The province has introduced measures to reduce moose density in a couple areas such as near Revelstoke but not everywhere.

[Red_Mist]

So from briefly looking that plan we are maintaining the caribou population at 6000 and not much foreseeable increase. Its not like we will have 20k or 40k caribou from this plan, yet we are going to diminish all other ungulate populations....great. Seems like we should have another plan. As far as the wolves, considering that can stretch their territories to 1000 km, well they will just keep moving and killing including the caribou once there is less moose, elk and deer.

[bigben]

Stay away from coffee shop talk.

You're in the middle of a lot of bullshit over there.

Bull shit or not i read the plan and it seems that is what the attempt is made to be done reduce ungulate population around the purcell range to allow the predator population and if you had any sense of scientific apathy you would see it when you talk to the cat hunters and trappers in this southeastern area that the predator population is down and ask yourself why they put a mortorium on grizzly hunting in the zones region 4 22,21 ,21 the mandate is for all of canada in the federal level but here in the southeastern of our province we are protecting the caribou by decreasing the ungulate population to keep wolves and cats away from the critical habitat in the west kootenay but when you read the report you will see that it comes up into the rockies and it is protected by the idaho fish and game as they want the caribou to exist going back and forth across the border the discussion was very interestingr, and if your paying attention you will know that in the ST Marys valley it is of limit to ski doos as it is their prime wintering range and if the federal government gets involved that user group will probably will not be able to use that valley again , tinkering with our wildlife management year after year has to stop and long range plans have to be put in to place to allow future generations to enjoy what we had in the pass Have a nice day Mr Fischer

[bigben]

Fisherdude have you gotten into the electric lettuce you keep accusing others of?
I've heard variations of the same thing and it was confirmed during a public caribou awareness meeting in Fort St John in the spring of 2015. It was directed at industry stakeholders but I wasn't the only resident hunter in attendance. Besides their conclusion that grizzlies tend not to prey on caribou (something I believe given my own experiences viewing both in close vicinty to each other) the main speaker also stated that efforts were made in the lower regions of the province to significantly reduce moose populations in an effort to starve wolves out of caribou wintering areas. Prior to this admission I had pointed out to a close friend employed by the OGC in a caribou study that whoever thought this was a good policy should be taken out for a good beating as even the dimmest idiot would know when the moose were gone the caribou would be eaten. She did not deny that this policy had been put in place.
I agree that most hunters tend to put too much credence into coffee shop talk but this has been discussed on here before by others more knowledgeable than me.
Thank
you Bear Chaser I am happy to know that we drink the same coffee

[bearvalley]

You can read the federal recovery for southern mountain caribou here. http://www.registrelep-sararegistry.gc.ca/virtual_sara/files/plans/rs%5Fwoodland%5Fcaribou%5Fbois%5Fs%5Fmtn%5Fpop%5F0 114%5Fe%2Epdf


The federal plan identifies a need to reduce alternate prey (mostly moose). The science behind this is reasonable. In most caribou herd areas in the south part of the province we have been logging in their ranges and that has improved moose habitat and more food equals more moose. More moose over time supports more wolves and more wolves eat more caribou. There are lots of variables that make this relationship imperfect, but as a general rule it is reasonable.

Over the long haul one option is to manage logging and silviculture so it does not produce as much moose browse. That takes decades though.

The province has introduced measures to reduce moose density in a couple areas such as near Revelstoke but not everywhere.

The province already has reduced moose densities in an attempt to reduce wolves and recover caribou.
The recovery has been a fail even with the moose gone.
Wolves find alternate prey sources.
The Quesnel Highlands Caribou Recovery is a classic example.....millions spent....moose numbers reduced...caribou population still struggling and the wolves doing fine.
When the project was peer reviewed it was stated that the one step nessasary for the caribou to recover was not done.
That step was wolf removal.

[Wild one]

The province already has reduced moose densities in an attempt to reduce wolves and recover caribou.
The recovery has been a fail even with the moose gone.
Wolves find alternate prey sources.
The Quesnel Highlands Caribou Recovery is a classic example.....millions spent....moose numbers reduced...caribou population still struggling and the wolves doing fine.
When the project was peer reviewed it was stated that the one step nessasary for the caribou to recover was not done.
That step was wolf removal.

really wish these kind of plans for predator issues would come to an end

[bownut]

The province already has reduced moose densities in an attempt to reduce wolves and recover caribou.
The recovery has been a fail even with the moose gone.
Wolves find alternate prey sources.
The Quesnel Highlands Caribou Recovery is a classic example.....millions spent....moose numbers reduced...caribou population still struggling and the wolves doing fine.
When the project was peer reviewed it was stated that the one step nessasary for the caribou to recover was not done.
That step was wolf removal.

Your right on the money BV, seems like most of the management practice lately has catered to the hunting opportunity of the ungulates and less on the predators.
Many have listen to the science that is built around this Alternative Prey Study and Line Of Site defence. Management can't wrap their head around the fact
that wolves need to eat and they can pretty much out run anything in BC.

The funds have been there for proper management studies of the caribou and nothing has changed toward prey management, open hunting season on wolves is a joke and
its time to fire up those helicopters and get their population were it belongs.
Starving out the wolf will result less hunting opportunity of all ungulates if management continues on the path that we are taking.

You want to hear hunters bitching about the lack of hunter opportunity, wait until there is nothing left to hunt.

[horshur]

..there is no social licence to deal with Wolves. It is a politicians nightmare. The finger pointing needs to be at the sentimental general public.

[two-feet]

There was a helicopter wolf removal in the SE, NE as well. Around 175 wolves in total I think? The bios most certainly do understand that to recover caribou the wolves need to be managed, and to the govt credit they put up some $ and some social capital to remove a number of packs that were eating caribou.

I prefer to see this method applied instead of reducing moose populations.

[GoatGuy]

Your right on the money BV, seems like most of the management practice lately has catered to the hunting opportunity of the ungulates and less on the predators.
Many have listen to the science that is built around this Alternative Prey Study and Line Of Site defence. Management can't wrap their head around the fact
that wolves need to eat and they can pretty much out run anything in BC.

The funds have been there for proper management studies of the caribou and nothing has changed toward prey management, open hunting season on wolves is a joke and
its time to fire up those helicopters and get their population were it belongs.
Starving out the wolf will result less hunting opportunity of all ungulates if management continues on the path that we are taking.

You want to hear hunters bitching about the lack of hunter opportunity, wait until there is nothing left to hunt.


The researchers/managers/biologists and stakeholder committees all recommended wolf management.

The politicians didn't support it.

That was pushed down through the various levels of government, all the way down to the line managers.

You seem to blame your issues on biologists, or management as you call it, when in this case they are the ones who know the issues and solutions, but do not have the tools to implement them. The politicians have been holding this process up since the 1990s; the only reason wolf management is moving forward is because of SARA and some extremely heated meetings.

Hard to understand you blame this on biologists, when there isn't a shred of evidence that would support your claim. Not one.

Feel your posts are often misleading, untruthful, uninformed, or just blatant lies. You seem to make things up without evidence, and often what you say contradicts all of the evidence/data/paper trail/meeting minutes/briefings/inventory that is available, yet you state your 'opinion' as fact.

What kind of response do you expect from people when what you say cannot be substantiated or corroborated by a single piece of evidence? How do you expect people to react to what you say when everything they read, hear, see, from biologists, managers, researchers, committee members, stakeholders, experts, and everyone "involved" is not supported by what you say?

The world of alternate facts isn't one where a person gets a lot of mileage. If you're going to make things up, expect to get called on it.

[bownut]

The researchers/managers/biologists and stakeholder committees all recommended wolf management.

The politicians didn't support it.

That was pushed down through the various levels of government, all the way down to the line managers.

You seem to blame your issues on biologists, or management as you call it, when in this case they are the ones who know the issues and solutions, but do not have the tools to implement them. The politicians have been holding this process up since the 1990s; the only reason wolf management is moving forward is because of SARA and some extremely heated meetings.

Hard to understand you blame this on biologists, when there isn't a shred of evidence that would support your claim. Not one.

Feel your posts are often misleading, untruthful, uninformed, or just blatant lies. You seem to make things up without evidence, and often what you say contradicts all of the evidence/data/paper trail/meeting minutes/briefings/inventory that is available, yet you state your 'opinion' as fact.

What kind of response do you expect from people when what you say cannot be substantiated or corroborated by a single piece of evidence? How do you expect people to react to what you say when everything they read, hear, see, from biologists, managers, researchers, committee members, stakeholders, experts, and everyone "involved" is not supported by what you say?

The world of alternate facts isn't one where a person gets a lot of mileage. If you're going to make things up, expect to get called on it.

Who has been using the Alternative prey studies and Line of Site defence Modes as a tool to counter the wolves, the Ministry or Biologist?

Its all about the science for sure and the politicians don't support the cull so do we continue watching things decline and add to it with shooting the moose and the white tails?
Is that all we have to go on?

[RiverOtter]

Lotsa pieces to the wildlife puzzle, but any plan that doesn't directly deal with preds, especially wolves(Aerial shooting, serious trapping and hopefully poison) is going to come up way short, if we're hoping to see results in our lifetime.

Suitable habitat, which plays a vital role in growing herds via fawn/calf recruitment, is obviously another critical piece. The "Line of Sight" that you're obviously hung up on is to further enhance survival chances in a reduced predator environment.

[GoatGuy]

Who has been using the Alternative prey studies and Line of Site defence Modes as a tool to counter the wolves, the Ministry or Biologist?

Its all about the science for sure and the politicians don't support the cull so do we continue watching things decline and add to it with shooting the moose and the white tails?
Is that all we have to go on?

We went through this two weeks ago.

You seem to want to rehash your issues when the science/fact/evidence doesn't support your views. Instead of adding to the conversation you come up with a rhetorical question.

If you are going to make a decision without any of the evidence, then defend your position when none of the evidence supports your decision, having a conversation is pointless.

Decision-based evidence making and alternate facts make having a discussion nearly impossible. Despite the best science you will still come up with rhetoric every time because you are entrenched in your beliefs. You will say things like "it's all about the science", but when the science is 100% opposite of your pre-conceived opinion you will fire out a rhetorical question, blame "management nowadays", or blame some other nebulous agent. It's always someone else's fault, and despite having none of the evidence, your opinion in absence of any evidence is all that counts.


Going to have to add you to the special list.

[bownut]

We went through this two weeks ago.

You seem to want to rehash your issues when the science/fact/evidence doesn't support your views. Instead of adding to the conversation you come up with a rhetorical question.

If you are going to make a decision without any of the evidence, then defend your position when none of the evidence supports your decision, having a conversation is pointless.

Decision-based evidence making and alternate facts make having a discussion nearly impossible. Despite the best science you will still come up with rhetoric every time because you are entrenched in your beliefs. You will say things like "it's all about the science", but when the science is 100% opposite of your pre-conceived opinion you will fire out a rhetorical question, blame "management nowadays", or blame some other nebulous agent. It's always someone else's fault, and despite having none of the evidence, your opinion in absence of any evidence is all that counts.


Going to have to add you to the special list.

Then lets continue the path that you seem to back so strongly and see how it plays out. Hope your attitude toward wildlife turns up something better that a bunch of wolf turds.
People are watching! Your on many peoples special lists in case you wanted to know.

[RiverOtter]

Horses can only be led to water....

If politicians nix any meaningful wolf reduction or fail to fund any recommendations, does the fall out from that "wisdom" get dumped on the bios who recommended it???

[Xenomorph]

Horses can only be led to water....

If politicians nix any meaningful wolf reduction or fail to fund any recommendations, does the fall out from that "wisdom" get dumped on the bios who recommended it???


Of course it would, have you ever seen one of them come out and honestly say "Mea Culpa"?!?
On the other hand, one could hope, we pick up the slack and tag those coyotes, wolves and cats as diligently and as successful as possible.

[GoatGuy]

Horses can only be led to water....

If politicians nix any meaningful wolf reduction or fail to fund any recommendations, does the fall out from that "wisdom" get dumped on the bios who recommended it???


Wolf reduction has been recommended since the 90s. Politicians didn't support it. It's happening now because COSEWIC has recommended an endangered listing to SARA. If the critical habitat net drops it will mean huge changes for BC.

You're correct, seems sometimes the coffee shop dumps the fall-out on researchers. People have a habit of beating up on managers/researchers when the problem is political. Works well for politicians.

[bigben]

Wolf reduction has been recommended since the 90s. Politicians didn't support it. It's happening now because COSEWIC has recommended an endangered listing to SARA. If the critical habitat net drops it will mean huge changes for BC.

You're correct, seems sometimes the coffee shop dumps the fall-out on researchers. People have a habit of beating up on managers/researchers when the problem is political. Works well for politicians.
So
Mr Goatguy what s your recommendations to fix it always seems that you have the inside scoop on everything Better question when is it going to get fixed ???

[GoatGuy]

So
Mr Goatguy what s your recommendations to fix it always seems that you have the inside scoop on everything Better question when is it going to get fixed ???

How
Talk to all the candidates in your area before the provincial election. Tell them fish and wildlife is in trouble, that you want to see fish and wildlife increased and that you will vote on it.

Ask the candidates two questions:
1) What will you do for fish and wildlife?
2) What will you do to ensure I have access to fish, wildlife and BC's backcountry?

When

Election mode starts pretty soon - once it gets running you will have until May.

[Bugle M In]

I sorta feel done talking.
I'd rather just stat finger pointing at the politicians.
If it means out in the open, on public airwaves so be it.
Just like CO's, I think the Biologists (most of them) have the right intent, but remember, this is
also their "livelihood".
There is only so much "speaking out" they can do, without reprimand, especially if they speak out
thru media against the government themselves.
They have to put food on the table, for them and their families.
I think it's our part, to take this science, and their recommendations to tv and radio.
Just can't see that writing a letter will make a difference.
I will right my MLA, but, I have already contacted one tv news station, about all our problems
with wildlife and declines due to government mismanagement, and little funding.
So far, no reply.
Will try with another soon.

[GoatGuy]

I sorta feel done talking.
I'd rather just stat finger pointing at the politicians.
If it means out in the open, on public airwaves so be it.
Just like CO's, I think the Biologists (most of them) have the right intent, but remember, this is
also their "livelihood".
There is only so much "speaking out" they can do, without reprimand, especially if they speak out
thru media against the government themselves.
They have to put food on the table, for them and their families.
I think it's our part, to take this science, and their recommendations to tv and radio.
Just can't see that writing a letter will make a difference.
I will right my MLA, but, I have already contacted one tv news station, about all our problems
with wildlife and declines due to government mismanagement, and little funding.
So far, no reply.
Will try with another soon.

You are on the right track, keep up the great work!

Politicians care about two things: Money and votes.

Need to convince all of the politicians that fish and wildlife are a top priority for you, your friends and family. Writing is good, but meeting is so much better!

[HarryToolips]

Just heard in a coffee shop talk that the federal and provincial governments are trying to bring the caribou herd back in the southeast region of British Columbia . The mandate is to make sure that our ungulate population deer elk moose are to crash in population so that the predator will also crash so that they can protect the caribou population . This is essential to bring the herd back to respectable numbers so that we will not deem them extinct. Hence the seasons that are liberal through out the province especially on the cow elk and whitetail deer does .My question is how long are we going to allow this to happen before we will see our management of wildlife increase in numbers so this in turn keeps all the users hunters guides and wildlife enthuisist happy . Coffee shop talk but quite interesting information as there is a report out there that you can obtain threw the ministry and read up on it .




Seasons that are liberal on cow elk and wt does? The only cow elk season in the south east part of the province is in certain agricultural zones, to reduce agricultural conflict...and the wt doe seasons were implemented more to help decreasing mule deer pops in region 4, as well as to curb the whitetails rapidly increasing numbers, while maximizing hunter opportunity, as whitetails have repeatedly proven that they can sustain such a harvest...and the wt doe limit has been decreased to 1 per licence on the last regulation cycle in region 4, so I would take all this coffee shop talk with a grain of salt...

[bigben]

How
Talk to all the candidates in your area before the provincial election. Tell them fish and wildlife is in trouble, that you want to see fish and wildlife increased and that you will vote on it.

Ask the candidates two questions:
1) What will you do for fish and wildlife?
2) What will you do to ensure I have access to fish, wildlife and BC's backcountry?

When

Election mode starts pretty soon - once it gets running you will have until May.
Doing

just that J will see where it takes us

[GoatGuy]

Doing

just that J will see where it takes us


Awesome, good to hear!

[bigben]

How
Talk to all the candidates in your area before the provincial election. Tell them fish and wildlife is in trouble, that you want to see fish and wildlife increased and that you will vote on it.

Ask the candidates two questions:
1) What will you do for fish and wildlife?
2) What will you do to ensure I have access to fish, wildlife and BC's backcountry?

When

Election mode starts pretty soon - once it gets running you will have until May.


Some interesting stuff at the forum here in cranbrook on the plight of our wildlife all users group want the same thing good time to get the fire stoked and bring on the red flames so to say hopefully will get the politicians to understand how important this resource is to us the taxpayers and to the business people so they can start to dig in to internal revenue and make this province what it once was ,,,,,,,,,,I would recommend that all you hunters and wildlife enthusis out there get on the computer phone pen and paper and right your MLA and tell no demand them we need a change and only this way we can accomplish these goals of bring our wildlife back to what they were in the early years for everyone to enjoy but more importantly for the future generation to come



bigben

[bigben]

Seasons that are liberal on cow elk and wt does? The only cow elk season in the south east part of the province is in certain agricultural zones, to reduce agricultural conflict...and the wt doe seasons were implemented more to help decreasing mule deer pops in region 4, as well as to curb the whitetails rapidly increasing numbers, while maximizing hunter opportunity, as whitetails have repeatedly proven that they can sustain such a harvest...and the wt doe limit has been decreased to 1 per licence on the last regulation cycle in region 4, so I would take all this coffee shop talk with a grain of salt...

If and only if your drinking the same coffee the talk is all good and will make a differance

[BC Cruiser]

I know I don't post much. But I thought I'd share this link with everyone
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/frpa/uwr/index.html
It gives a brief description of ungulate winter ranges and GAR orders. These can take years to implement though. But they are one of the tools that land managers utilize to try to achieve habitat goals. Hopefully it's helpful to some people.

[GoatGuy]

Some interesting stuff at the forum here in cranbrook on the plight of our wildlife all users group want the same thing good time to get the fire stoked and bring on the red flames so to say hopefully will get the politicians to understand how important this resource is to us the taxpayers and to the business people so they can start to dig in to internal revenue and make this province what it once was ,,,,,,,,,,I would recommend that all you hunters and wildlife enthusis out there get on the computer phone pen and paper and right your MLA and tell no demand them we need a change and only this way we can accomplish these goals of bring our wildlife back to what they were in the early years for everyone to enjoy but more importantly for the future generation to come



bigben



Good stuff, keep it going!!!!!!!!

[HarryToolips]

^^^^i agree as well bigben, lets all get that petition that's going around signed, so all our wildlife $$$ goes back into wildlife...

[HarryToolips]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?135499-BCWF-Sign-the-Petition&highlight=BCWF+petition

[HarryToolips]

Share the link with everyone you know folks...