Deer in Western North America

[GoatGuy]

A thread things deer.

Lots of data inside so you can analyze it how you think is best.

Will break it down by jurisdiction.


Idaho Fish and Game Budget

https://dfm.idaho.gov/publications/bb/eb/eb2017/sectionb/natural/fishgame.pdf

Idaho Forest Maps

http://www.ce.utexas.edu/prof/maidment/tmpaper/spring97/mcadammj/gifs/idforest.gif

Idaho Ecoregions:

ftp://newftp.epa.gov/EPADataCommons/ORD/Ecoregions/id/id_eco_lg.pdf

US Hunting License Sales:

https://wsfrprograms.fws.gov/subpages/licenseinfo/HuntingLicCertHistory20042015.pdf

Idaho Mule Deer Management Plan

https://idfg.idaho.gov/old-web/docs/wildlife/planMuleDeer.pdf

Idaho WT Deer Management Plan

https://idfg.idaho.gov/old-web/docs/wildlife/planWhiteTailDeer.pdf

Idaho Hunting Seasons

https://idfg.idaho.gov/sites/default/files/seasons-rules-big-game_2015-2016.pdf

Idaho 2015 Deer Hunting Statistics

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/ifwis/huntplanner/stats.aspx

[GoatGuy]

Montana Fish, Wildlife Parks Budget 2014-17

http://leg.mt.gov/content/Publications/fiscal/Budget-Books/2017/Fiscal-Report/section_c/5201-00summary.pdf


Montana Ecosystem Map

http://fwp.mt.gov/education/ecosystem/home.html

Montana Ecoregions

http://www.flatheadwatershed.org/natural_history/biodiversity.shtml

US Hunting License Sales:

https://wsfrprograms.fws.gov/subpage...ry20042015.pdf (https://wsfrprograms.fws.gov/subpages/licenseinfo/HuntingLicCertHistory20042015.pdf)

Montana Mule Deer and WT Managment Plans and Distribution

http://fwp.mt.gov/fishAndWildlife/management/deer/

Map of Hunting Units

http://fwp.mt.gov/gis/maps/huntPlanner/?bma=true

2017 Hunting Seasons

http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/planahunt/huntingGuides/dea/

Harvest Statistics

http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/planahunt/harvestReports.html

[GoatGuy]

Washington State F&W Budget Request 2017-19
http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01850/wdfw01850.pdf

Washington State Ecoregions (tough to sift through)

http://www.landscope.org/washington/natural_geography/ecoregions/

Washington State Mule Deer Man Plan

http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01755/wdfw01755.pdf

Washington State WT Deer Man Plan

http://wdfw.wa.gov/conservation/white-tailed_deer/

Washington State Hunting Regulations - includes Maps

http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01799/wdfw01799.pdf


Washington State Deer Harvest (interactive tab on right)

http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2015/deer_general.html

[GoatGuy]

BC Fish and Wildlife Budget

Not available - will be somewhere around $25M between Fish and Wildlife branch and Freshwater Fisheries Society of BC

BC Ecosystems

https://www.for.gov.bc.ca/HRE/becweb/resources/classificationreports/provincial/

BC Mule Deer Management Plan

doesn't really exist

Kootenay-Boundary MD Plan: http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/management-issues/docs/kb_mule_deer_managementplan.pdf

BC White-tailed Deer Management Plan

Doesn't really exist

WT Deer issues document http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/management-issues/docs/white_tailed_deer_prov_review.pdf


BC Hunting Regs

http://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/sports-culture/recreation/fishing-hunting/hunting/regulations-synopsis


Harvest Statistics available online (2013)

http://residentpriority.ca/2015/05/1976-2013-big-game-harvest-stats/

[GoatGuy]

Licence Type
05/06
06/07
07/08
08/09
09/10
10/11
11/12
12/13
13/14
14/15
15/16


MOE HUNT RESIDENT
72,273
73,051
73,269
75,656
76,847
79,570
78,599
80,761
83,434
86,370
90,288


MOE HUNT RESIDENT SENIOR
11,895
12,605
12,820
13,550
13,805
14,440
14,630
15,437
16,056
16,946
17,899


MOE HUNT JUNIOR RESIDENT
1,465
1,524
1,633
1,661
1,583
1,668
1,497
1,630





HUNT YOUTH RESIDENT








2,165
2,652
2,662


HUNT INITIATION RESIDENT








458
874
862


Total "Resident Basic Licences"
85,633
87,180
87,722
90,867
92,235
95,678
94,726
97,828
102,113
106,842
111,711


MOE BISON
88
118
263
276
358
308
327
356
309
373
367


MOE BEAR BLACK RES
14,362
14,762
15,601
17,294
17,487
19,135
19,421
20,496
21,836
24,124
26,713


MOE BOBCAT RESIDENT
331
372
375
388
397
484
508
531
568
579
628


MOE CARIBOU RESIDENT
1,145
1,145
1,217
1,226
1,212
1,192
1,088
1,274
1,334
1,292
1,434


MOE COUGAR RESIDENT
920
960
1,077
1,159
1,297
1,402
1,528
1,788
1,988
2,093
2,341


MOE ELK RESIDENT
15,847
17,425
19,236
21,302
22,384
24,502
24,152
24,833
24,748
25,655
27,605


MOE BEAR, GRIZZLY RESIDENT
1,074
1,242
1,520
1,545
1,609
1,518
1,694
1,656
1,699
1,431
1,696


MOE LYNX RESIDENT
380
343
424
468
455
450
490
572
598
695
823


MOE MOOSE RESIDENT
35,465
35,883
35,920
36,242
38,867
39,369
38,859
38,924
39,049
38,067
39,556


MOE MOUNTAIN GOAT RESIDENT
1,857
1,928
1,954
2,086
2,319
2,223
2,163
2,414
2,285
2,393
2,434


MOE MOUNTAIN SHEEP RESIDENT
1,724
1,829
1,954
2,124
2,173
2,204
2,199
2,368
2,420
2,437
2,523


MOE DEER MULE RES
70,112
71,488
73,987
75,241
74,164
77,029
75,707
79,134
81,596
84,981
90,377


MOE DEER QCI RES
2,976
2,333
2,601
2,758
2,785
2,942
2,727
2,752
3,157
3,496
3,884


MOE DEER WHITE TAIL RES
33,365
35,364
37,505
40,563
42,010
49,505
47,725
51,265
52,346
56,752
61,711


MOE WOLVERINE RESIDENT
100
107
117
132
77
112
127
147
134
153
151


Total "Resident Species Licences"
179,746
185,299
193,751
202,804
207,594
222,375
218,715
228,510
234,067
244,521
262,243

[GoatGuy]

MOE HUNT NON RES
663
737
774
883
877
917
992
966
986
1,109
1,159


MOE HUNT JUNIOR NON RES
5
9
12
4
4
7
9
5





HUNT YOUTH NON RES








18
12
22


MOE HUNT ALIEN GAME
5,711
5,483
5,097
4,724
4,218
3,922
3,835
3,668
3,477
3,662
3,589


MOE HUNT JUNIOR ALIEN
8
15
8
9
13
20
15
19





HUNT YOUTH ALIEN








10
13
12


Total "Non-resident Basic Licences"
6,387
6,244
5,891
5,620
5,112
4,866
4,851
4,658
4,491
4,796
4,782


MOE UPLAND GAME BIRDS NON RES
424
462
452
452
450
439
439
422
452
564
606


MOE FW MUO BISON NON RES
11
9
32
21
32
32
17
27
19
22
25


MOE BEAR BLACK NON RES
3,367
3,044
2,867
2,732
2,423
2,218
2,211
2,134
1,999
2,174
2,104


MOE BOBCAT NON RES
111
91
90
98
94
112
79
109
124
108
118


MOE CARIBOU NON RES
432
446
405
377
363
329
306
310
319
367
353


MOE COUGAR NON RES
165
143
168
198
207
201
190
224
208
192
192


MOE ELK NON RES
1,008
1,149
1,076
918
817
773
766
777
666
722
599


MOE BEAR GRIZZLY NON RES
314
291
299
295
290
265
272
243
229
266
224


MOE LYNX NON RES
139
110
132
135
117
125
111
145
133
146
143


MOE MOOSE NON RES
2,683
2,618
2,381
2,209
1,959
1,813
1,821
1,685
1,548
1,656
1,651


MOE MOUNTAIN GOAT NON RES
859
774
696
683
666
648
676
654
632
687
641


MOE MOUNTAIN SHEEP NON RES
385
344
344
330
315
313
302
289
272
294
292


MOE DEER MULE NON RES
1,412
1,459
1,269
1,101
834
782
819
664
627
634
603


MOE DEER QCI NON RES
111
20
18
24
28
11
17
3
15
24
9


MOE DEER WHITE TAIL NON RES
458
576
485
450
348
399
393
294
259
267
273


MOE WOLVERINE NON RES
108
53
42
44
33
29
46
40
34
41
47


MOE WOLF NON RES
2,459
2,300
2,186
2,129
1,972
1,920
1,987
1,911
1,904
2,228
2,180


Total "Non-resident Species Licences"
14,446
13,889
12,942
12,196
10,948
10,409
10,452
9,931
9,440
10,392
10,060

[bearvalley]

Thanks for the links GG.
I haven't had time to read them but I will.
The last two posts of our provincial stats are interesting.
I may be anecdotal but it appears there's a lot of increased opportunity and possibly extra pressure being put on some species.
What do you think?

[GoatGuy]

Thanks for the links GG.
I haven't had time to read them but I will.
The last two posts of our provincial stats are interesting.
I may be anecdotal but it appears there's a lot of increased opportunity and possibly extra pressure being put on some species.
What do you think?

Certainly more licenses being sold over the last 10 years - some places the harvest is going up, other places it is going down. Overall well below what it has historically been if you use a baseline in the 70s, 80s, or 90s.

The general long-term downward trend in hunter harvest and wildlife populations becomes more evident every year.... least from my perspective.

[Timbow]

Thanks for posting the information. Lots to read

Can we get this stickied?

[Linksman313]

Thanks for this posting GG, will digest over the weekend and comment back on the MD thread.

[GoatGuy]

North America Mule Deer Conservation Plan

https://wildlife.utah.gov/pdf/NA_mule_deer_plan.pdf

[bownut]

Thanks Goat guy, this will give all concerned readers something to absorb.

I was wondering if the license numbers of the 70s-90s being higher than our present numbers . Good or bad?
If we factor Habitat Loss, Large increases in Access, and High Predation, should Hunting Opportunity be reviewed?
Could it be more of a factor than the formulas add up to. ( Game Populations Vs Hunter Harvest)
Not that any studies have been done, but could we be driving game out of traditional zones and creating competition leading us to believe that we need to control the imports. ( Mule Deer vs White Tail)

With the declining harvest and increased hunters numbers and opportunity I think the warning bells are going off everywhere and that is why your seeing concerned groups popping up everywhere

[bownut]

Thanks Goat guy, this will give all concerned readers something to absorb.

I was wondering if the license numbers of the 70s-90s being higher than our present numbers . Good or bad?
If we factor Habitat Loss, Large increases in Access, and High Predation, should Hunting Opportunity be reviewed?
Could it be more of a factor than the formulas add up to. ( Game Populations Vs Hunter Harvest)
Not that any studies have been done, but could we be driving game out of traditional zones and creating competition leading us to believe that we need to control the imports. ( Mule Deer vs White Tail)

With the declining harvest and increased hunters numbers and opportunity I think the warning bells are going off everywhere and that is why your seeing concerned groups popping up everywhere

[horshur]

bownut. Ungulates are a crop to be harvested. You do not get more grain by not cutting it. The harvest is dependant on environmental conditions,soil quality etc. To increase crop you amend soils, irrigate, fertilize . As well you rotate,give the soil a rest. You also have to deal with pests to protect the crop. Then reapeat it all again.

[Dannybuoy]

bownut. Ungulates are a crop to be harvested. You do not get more grain by not cutting it. The harvest is dependant on environmental conditions,soil quality etc. To increase crop you amend soils, irrigate, fertilize . As well you rotate,give the soil a rest. You also have to deal with pests to protect the crop. Then reapeat it all again.

Bad analogy IMO , crops can be wiped out by Mother nature and there is nothing we can do about it. With wildlife , higher populations allow for "bad" winters or other natural selection occurrence's .

[GoatGuy]

Thanks Goat guy, this will give all concerned readers something to absorb.

I was wondering if the license numbers of the 70s-90s being higher than our present numbers . Good or bad?
If we factor Habitat Loss, Large increases in Access, and High Predation, should Hunting Opportunity be reviewed?
Could it be more of a factor than the formulas add up to. ( Game Populations Vs Hunter Harvest)
Not that any studies have been done, but could we be driving game out of traditional zones and creating competition leading us to believe that we need to control the imports. ( Mule Deer vs White Tail)

With the declining harvest and increased hunters numbers and opportunity I think the warning bells are going off everywhere and that is why your seeing concerned groups popping up everywhere

Read what the population drivers are out of those links, compare to what we are doing in BC. Look at what they are managing for sex ratios compared to what we have in BC.

Your questions will answer themselves.

[horshur]

Bad analogy IMO , crops can be wiped out by Mother nature and there is nothing we can do about it. With wildlife , higher populations allow for "bad" winters or other natural selection occurrence's .
I don't even know what you are trying to say. Higher populations of wildlife do not allow for bad winters at all..in fact makes things worse..

[bownut]

Thanks Goat guy, this will give all concerned readers something to absorb.

I was wondering if the license numbers of the 70s-90s being higher than our present numbers . Good or bad?
If we factor Habitat Loss, Large increases in Access, and High Predation, should Hunting Opportunity be reviewed?
Could it be more of a factor than the formulas add up to. ( Game Populations Vs Hunter Harvest)
Not that any studies have been done, but could we be driving game out of traditional zones and creating competition leading us to believe that we need to control the imports. ( Mule Deer vs White Tail)

With the declining harvest and increased hunters numbers and opportunity I think the warning bells are going off everywhere and that is why your seeing concerned groups popping up everywhere


Will do thanks.

[bownut]

Read what the population drivers are out of those links, compare to what we are doing in BC. Look at what they are managing for sex ratios compared to what we have in BC.

Your questions will answer themselves.


Will do. Thanks.

[Fisher-Dude]

Bad analogy IMO , crops can be wiped out by Mother nature and there is nothing we can do about it. With wildlife , higher populations allow for "bad" winters or other natural selection occurrence's .


I don't even know what you are trying to say. Higher populations of wildlife do not allow for bad winters at all..in fact makes things worse..

Horshur is 100% correct.

The massive die off in the 97 winter was due to game being over carrying capacity.

When there is a 40% shortfall in food, it does not mean 40% of animals die. It means all animals go 40% short of food and we get 75% die offs like we saw in 97.

Driving up the number of animals on winter range absolutely exacerbates the situation, and results in much higher winter death rates.

[Ourea]

Horshur is 100% correct.

The massive die off in the 97 winter was due to game being over carrying capacity.

When there is a 40% shortfall in food, it does not mean 40% of animals die. It means all animals go 40% short of food and we get 75% die offs like we saw in 97.

Driving up the number of animals on winter range absolutely exacerbates the situation, and results in much higher winter death rates.

Increase the quality and amount of winter range and the carrying capacity goes up.

[Fisher-Dude]

Increase the quality and amount of winter range and the carrying capacity goes up.

And here I thought antler restrictions was the answer. :rolleyes:

[Ourea]

And here I thought antler restrictions was the answer. :rolleyes:

For those of us that prefer age over numbers ..........:D

The simple reality is wildlife is habitat driven.
All the summer range in the world will not compensate for a lack of quality winter range.

[Dannybuoy]

Horshur is 100% correct.

The massive die off in the 97 winter was due to game being over carrying capacity.

When there is a 40% shortfall in food, it does not mean 40% of animals die. It means all animals go 40% short of food and we get 75% die offs like we saw in 97.

Driving up the number of animals on winter range absolutely exacerbates the situation, and results in much higher winter death rates.

I couldn't disagree more , it wasnt the first or the last tough winter.... it would have been much worse if the populations were not as high as they were , that's just the way nature works ... If the population is kept artificially low that's where the problems will occur as the surviving stock will have trouble or take longer to repopulate .You make it sound like there was a overpopulation which I am sure wasn't the case .
If I recall correctly the WT were hit hard that winter as well and I would hope the studies show that the WT numbers have increased dramatically since then because anecdotally I think they have . IMO.
I am going to continue to read the links posted by GG , there is a lot of good information there .

[Dannybuoy]

And here I thought antler restrictions was the answer. :rolleyes:

Read some of the studies .. you have as much to learn as I do grasshopper !
*hint* Its part of the equation for a diverse & healthy population .

[Fisher-Dude]

I couldn't disagree more , it wasnt the first or the last tough winter.... it would have been much worse if the populations were not as high as they were , that's just the way nature works ... If the population is kept artificially low that's where the problems will occur as the surviving stock will have trouble or take longer to repopulate .You make it sound like there was a overpopulation which I am sure wasn't the case .
If I recall correctly the WT were hit hard that winter as well and I would hope the studies show that the WT numbers have increased dramatically since then because anecdotally I think they have . IMO.
I am going to continue to read the links posted by GG , there is a lot of good information there .


Lots of research on this. Best level is 70 - 75% of CC for proper over winter survival even when the big snows hit.

Managing at or over CC results in huge die offs, depredation of winter range, increased transmission of disease, and high predator loads.

If you spend all your paycheque every two weeks and have no food supplies in the fridge, what happens when you get laid off for a couple of months? Death. Same with ungulates.

The goal is to expand the CC - get a bigger fridge full of food.

[bownut]

Have we had any quality studies of the winter range lately, I know that the South Okanagan has some projects on the go.
Invasive studies are on going, has there been any replant projects on a provincial level.

[Dannybuoy]

Lots of research on this. Best level is 70 - 75% of CC for proper over winter survival even when the big snows hit.

Managing at or over CC results in huge die offs, depredation of winter range, increased transmission of disease, and high predator loads.

If you spend all your paycheque every two weeks and have no food supplies in the fridge, what happens when you get laid off for a couple of months? Death. Same with ungulates.

The goal is to expand the CC - get a bigger fridge full of food.

That's not the issue I have with your logic (science) Although what's wrong with a bit higher CC ? The issue is, what is CC and what was CC in 97 ? I believe it was at normal or average . I am speaking of the N Okanagan as I have no knowledge of other MU's or regions . Was there even an above average "winterkill" elsewhere ?

[Fisher-Dude]

That's not the issue I have with your logic (science) Although what's wrong with a bit higher CC ? The issue is, what is CC and what was CC in 97 ? I believe it was at normal or average . I am speaking of the N Okanagan as I have no knowledge of other MU's or regions . Was there even an above average "winterkill" elsewhere ?


Region 4 was decimated by that winter. 40+ years of forest ingrowth along with exclusion fencing programs, and high ungulate populations was a recipe for disaster.


https://lifeonabccattleranch.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/figure2.gif


Want to get a better survival rate? Burn this shit.

[2chodi]

Here are some notes I took when Mark Hurley from Idaho spoke at the 2013 BCWF AGM:




There have been major peaks and valleys in populations over the last 30 years but every peak is lower.


Mandatory harvest reporting.


3% difference in adult survival can mean a difference between a population increasing or decreasing.


Wolves like elk over deer, but mountain lions are a different story.


Fawns: Severe winter most mortality from starvation and coyotes.


Effects of Predator Control


Arial gunning, trapping and hunting.


Lion control -


Money for coyote control - up to 70% were killed


Winter survival was impacted by lion removal and summer survival most by coyote removal.


Weather is the major limiting factor.


Early winter precipitation is a major factor, more so than snow that comes later.


No forage meets the protein requirements in the winter - the longer the winter, the worse shape the deer will be in.


Forage quality:


Mule deer typically stay over summer where they fawn.


Late fall nutrition is critical.


Aspen habitat (higher elevation) holds fewer coyotes and lower mortality.


Mule deer are very territorial (more so than elk) so the more deer there are, the more that will be kicked out of the best habitat and forces them to try and survive on poorer quality habitat.


Just because you have animals living in a habitat does not mean it's the best habitat, so focus enhancement efforts on the best habitat.


Multistoried stands of aspen are critical.


If you have fewer deer over a 10 year period it's likely a weather issue, if it is over 30 years, it's likely a habitat issue.


Feeding - Chad Bishop Colorado - it helps, but in Idaho feeding deer has been a big issue because it stops migration. Also increases adult survival rates but decreases fawn survival. Mule deer need to migrate to survive.


Controlled burns are good but be careful about too large a burn. Fire on winter range is bad - fire on summer range is good.


White-tailed deer will always out compete with mule deer because of twinning rates.

[bownut]

Thats probably why the Okanagan is hurting so badly, shit kicked the winter range all over the valley.
Predation is crazy for one and quality shelter is spread out too thin.
Hot burns also cooked the soil good.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Here are some notes I took when Mark Hurley from Idaho spoke at the 2013 BCWF AGM:




There have been major peaks and valleys in populations over the last 30 years but every peak is lower.


Mandatory harvest reporting.


3% difference in adult survival can mean a difference between a population increasing or decreasing.


Wolves like elk over deer, but mountain lions are a different story.


Fawns: Severe winter most mortality from starvation and coyotes.


Effects of Predator Control


Arial gunning, trapping and hunting.


Lion control -


Money for coyote control - up to 70% were killed


Winter survival was impacted by lion removal and summer survival most by coyote removal.


Weather is the major limiting factor.


Early winter precipitation is a major factor, more so than snow that comes later.


No forage meets the protein requirements in the winter - the longer the winter, the worse shape the deer will be in.


Forage quality:


Mule deer typically stay over summer where they fawn.


Late fall nutrition is critical.


Aspen habitat (higher elevation) holds fewer coyotes and lower mortality.


Mule deer are very territorial (more so than elk) so the more deer there are, the more that will be kicked out of the best habitat and forces them to try and survive on poorer quality habitat.


Just because you have animals living in a habitat does not mean it's the best habitat, so focus enhancement efforts on the best habitat.


Multistoried stands of aspen are critical.


If you have fewer deer over a 10 year period it's likely a weather issue, if it is over 30 years, it's likely a habitat issue.


Feeding - Chad Bishop Colorado - it helps, but in Idaho feeding deer has been a big issue because it stops migration. Also increases adult survival rates but decreases fawn survival. Mule deer need to migrate to survive.


Controlled burns are good but be careful about too large a burn. Fire on winter range is bad - fire on summer range is good.


White-tailed deer will always out compete with mule deer because of twinning rates.


Thanks for posting up your notes Tuchodi. Wish I had the foresight to do the same so I would remember all those presentations.

That last point is pretty significant.

[bownut]

Mandatory harvest reporting, thats a for sure, but goat guy said that it would cost too much.
My comment was that we were already spending too much on our present questionnaire and that as much as it was consistent, it wasn't enough.
Too Random in so many ways.

How long have we been using the present H/Q?

The more I read this one the better it gets.
Mark Hurley Rocks.

[GoatGuy]

Mandatory harvest reporting, thats a for sure, but goat guy said that it would cost too much.
My comment was that we were already spending too much on our present questionnaire and that as much as it was consistent, it wasn't enough.
Too Random in so many ways.

How long have we been using the present H/Q?

The more I read this one the better it gets.
Mark Hurley Rocks.


Under the current system I said mandatory reporting would be too expensive. I also said it can be done under electronic licensing which we are currently transitioning to.

The harvest questionnaire and sampling design was built in the 1970s.

Reporting how many bucks are shot will not, however, increase the mule deer population.

[bownut]

Under the current system I said mandatory reporting would be too expensive. I also said it can be done under electronic licensing which we are currently transitioning to.

The harvest questionnaire and sampling design was built in the 1970s.

Reporting how many bucks are shot will not, however, increase the mule deer population.

So if we are still using the systems that were designed in the 70's and you have stated that Management for the past 40 years has screwed up so badly.
How can the present management practices be moving in the right directions without a better way to determine what gets taken and what is truly left standing in the spring?
Hurley did suggest a mandatory reporting of harvest, and the e licence will be a great step in the right direction.

I am not quite convinced that we should even look at other studies until we have a True benchmark.
If the white tails aren't doing as well as everyone thinks could we be going in the wrong direction with our thinking?

Question:
What was the total elk count for region 8-8 and 8-9 in 2001?
What was the elk count in 2004 for the same areas?

[GoatGuy]

So if we are still using the systems that were designed in the 70's and you have stated that Management for the past 40 years has screwed up so badly.
How can the present management practices be moving in the right directions without a better way to determine what gets taken and what is truly left standing in the spring?
Hurley did suggest a mandatory reporting of harvest, and the e licence will be a great step in the right direction.

I am not quite convinced that we should even look at other studies until we have a True benchmark.
If the white tails aren't doing as well as everyone thinks could we be going in the wrong direction with our thinking?

Question:
What was the total elk count for region 8-8 and 8-9 in 2001?
What was the elk count in 2004 for the same areas?

Best you start a region 8 elk thread.

No sense in cluttering a thread on deer in North America with localized minutia for a different species.