First Nation rights

[ridge walker]

Three First Nations hunters today trespassed on private property close to Naramata and shot a cow elk with a unborn baby calf along with another yearling elk, what's your thoughts?http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/webkit-fake-url://4baf17c0-714f-4e8c-8ff9-adfd9666f0fa/imagejpeg

[ridge walker]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/webkit-fake-url://15c6402a-0ee7-4163-9fa3-6fad25b3dc6a/imagejpeg

[hoochie]

What did the CO say?

[Gateholio]

I think you should call the CO's and give them any information you may have, including photos and lic plate numbers, and they will determine if charges are required.

[ridge walker]

The RCMP/CO'S basically watched them gut the elk and left the full form baby elk in the gut pile while the property owner looked helpless as they drove away with the elk in the back of there truck. If I could figure out how to post pictures I would?

[takla1]

Pretty brazen especially on private property and dischargeing firearms in a residential area>??Seems somewhat out of control if you ask me even given first nations rights

takla

[ridge walker]

wildlife .

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/94A5EF66-C40E-4F37-99F5-4C71CFCEAACA

[jimi g]

Send your story and photos to the media? They typically wouldn't cover it- but this is pretty outrageous. Otherwise social media the story?

[Bonz]

thoughts?...,make sure it goes public. keep the ball rolling with that polition that made race war statements. show them who is inciting the war...and has been for years

[Wild one]

The one I know 100% is not part of FN rights is access to private land

They did break the law trespassing and hunting private land without permission

[Bonz]

i have a buddy in that general area. also says theirs been lots of slaughtering going on.

[BgBlkDg]

IF, this IS FACTUAL and the COs/RCMP DID attend, witness such an atrocity and allow the minority group members to act in this manner, what does this tell you about Canada's future as a peaceful, law-based democracy????????

I think my feelings toward and opinions of this minority group are well known here, so, won't reiterate them, but, I do believe in the RIGHT of "self defence" as a fundamental aspect of freedom and support ANY action by those impacted by such outrageous behaviour.

I also firmly support total disarmament for any and all members of this minority group. Guns are NOT one of their "traditional" artifacts and ONLY WE whose ancestors invented rifles have the moral birthright to own them. After all, we all want to be *traditional*, eh................

[Bonz]

i wouldnt go as far as dissarming them. more have the laws in place enforced better and not so scared of the race card crap and all this politicaly correct garbage.

just as someone mentioned about illegal guns for crime and take a look at border issues. we havre all these rule and laws in place for all these issues, but arent use as they should be.
the usual i hear..oh, to hard to determine traditional land or other..in plain english...i couldnt be bothered cause they get off easy in courts

[plumberjustin]

A guy posted this story yesterday on the huntingBC Facebook page. It contained many photos, quite graphic, made me sick to hear this news. We can't allow these atrocities to go on any longer. Something must be done.

[Bonz]

i see a few blank posts here. im assuming they were images as well

[Weatherby Fan]

Oh it's going to go on and it's going to get a lot worse, this is just the tip of the iceberg

The judicial system has given them the right to do anything they want when they want and they're doing it.

The part that baffles me is why in anywhere in the world does one person have any more right to food than the next person, if you ask me that's as racist as it gets.

[Ride Red]

Poachers and trespassers are "Not Hunters"

[Bonz]

wow, brutal, just saw a buddy post pics from the scene..disgusting. shared on my group
unreal, even though busted and are being charged according to reports, the6 still got to keep the dam meat...wtf?

[takla1]

wow, brutal, just saw a buddy post pics from the scene..disgusting. shared on my group
unreal, even though busted and are being charged according to reports, the6 still got to keep the dam meat...wtf?

You or me with the slightest infraction of the wildlife act would have had any and all game confiscated.Yrs ago I was crabbing and had my limit and size all under control and lawfull.They emptied my bucket while my kids stood there and watched and found one crab undersize by 1/4 inch,it may have been one my son measured,well you know it they were emptied on the spot to die in the sand and I got a 80.00 ticket..Yet an egregious flaunting of the law like this will hardly see punishment

takla

[Bonz]

oh hell ya. and no way would we be allowed to keep the meat...as these clowns where.funny. race war? dam straight you started one, call it what they ant. nut thats exactly what they have started, minus the politicly correct garbage
it was my buddy that lives in that area that i found the pics on hi page..lol

[358mag]

A guy posted this story yesterday on the huntingBC Facebook page. It contained many photos, quite graphic, made me sick to hear this news. We can't allow these atrocities to go on any longer. Something must be done.

Can you post the pictures on HBC for the rest of us to see ??

[ajr5406]

As I understand it, FN hunters can hunt anytime of year for "traditional" purposes as long as its within their "Traditional Territory" (or if outside, they must be granted permission from the tribe of that particular area) - correct?

If this is on Private land but WITHIN their traditional territory, does that mean traditional territory overrides private land ownership???

[wideopenthrottle]

I am guessing the reality of the situation is that the land owner has to press charges against the poachers ..if not they walk...when you have a family and live next door to these criminals do you risk your family for a few elk.....it should not be up to the landowner to press charges, it should be up to the crown!!!!

[Bonz]

this is the same band that was causing issue with the lady in OK falls for fishing to
this to will be a fight over land rights. i havent found anything yet that they were granted the traditional lands. only reserves, and that is different
charges have been paid. not sure what ones other than trespassing id assume

ive got the pics also, not sure why they got taken down here. ill wait to see an ok before ill post them up, i can pm them if anyone wants

[Bonz]

is their open season for elk in that area? if not i do think their not allowed unless they have an leh, or their open season there

[wideopenthrottle]

http://indigenousfoundations.arts.ubc.ca/home/government-policy/royal-proclamation-1763.html

I think this is worth a read to understand some of the complexities of the situation...

[Bonz]

this is the same group. the fishing issues


http://www.castanet.net/news/Penticton/170828/Fishing-dispute-heats-up

[358mag]

is their open season for elk in that area? if not i do think their not allowed unless they have an leh, or their open season there

Yes there's a GOS for 6 point bulls , but no LEH for cows in that region .

[Whonnock Boy]

What's the point to this thread Mr. Hubbard? Attempting to rile the rh's to help protect YOUR elk? We all know what emotions these types of situations conjure up with rh's, and there's no need inflame them.

[Bonz]

so us others that hunt there cant be angry about this?

[BgBlkDg]

What's the point to this thread Mr. Hubbard? Attempting to rile the rh's to help protect YOUR elk? We all know what emotions these types of situations conjure up with rh's, and there's no need inflame them.

Can you clarify the above as I think that concern over such situations IS most definitely a legitimate concern for all *rhs* and any other Canadian, who supports true democracy.

[Mosin]

Three First Nations hunters today trespassed on private property close to Naramata and shot a cow elk with a unborn baby calf along with another yearling elk, what's your thoughts?http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/webkit-fake-url://4baf17c0-714f-4e8c-8ff9-adfd9666f0fa/imagejpeg

My thoughts are, pics or its bs. Im sure you can email them to a member here who knows how to post them. Also like gatehouse mentioned report to CO, but always ask their name so you know who u were dealing with so the powers that be (public) can email this individual and his superior and ask why "nothing" was done.

[Bonz]

i can load them. but im waiting to here an ok by staff. dont know if they removed them, or the poster did

[guest]

No surprise here, a gutless provincial government, and a gutless federal government that really doesn't understand the term discrimination. Both run with two sets of laws ....... Completely out if touch with modern times.

This is going on all across Canada, and needs to be addressed, giving us all the same playing field, one LAW for all.

How pathetic, there goes more hope for a rebuild of the Okanagan Elk Herd, three more dead, for a special group, we all hope your real proud to help build the future herd ....... More heros in the news, great.

[Whonnock Boy]

Go for it, but I believe the OP has ulterior reasons for posting this thread.
so us others that hunt there cant be angry about this?

I'm not saying it isn't. Read above.....


Can you clarify the above as I think that concern over such situations IS most definitely a legitimate concern for all *rhs* and any other Canadian, who supports true democracy.

[Bonz]

pic of the no trespass sign and their truck. other with truck an cops in view. am of the people involved, and a few other disgusting ones


http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/16426090_10211546750242117_6200884755215351793_n.j pg

[Bonz]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/16427701_10211546713841207_3639994517296318285_n.j pg
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/16426220_10211546727601551_7922697127895218513_n.j pg

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/16406766_10211546748802081_498550322780641525_n.jp g

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/16388293_10211546735161740_2953428373291407839_n.j pg

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/16387866_10211546470635127_773071883631867852_n.jp g

[Bonz]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/16265281_10211546731201641_8253628878935680007_n.j pg

[Bonz]

might be couple more in my albums/..but we get the picture here

[358mag]

Thks Bonz for posting the pictures .

[finaddict]

Such a proud and noble people............and our national police just stand there and watch. I am embarrassed to call myself Canadian when sh*t like this happens.

[jassmine]

IF, this IS FACTUAL and the COs/RCMP DID attend, witness such an atrocity and allow the minority group members to act in this manner, what does this tell you about Canada's future as a peaceful, law-based democracy????????

I think my feelings toward and opinions of this minority group are well known here, so, won't reiterate them, but, I do believe in the RIGHT of "self defence" as a fundamental aspect of freedom and support ANY action by those impacted by such outrageous behaviour.

I also firmly support total disarmament for any and all members of this minority group. Guns are NOT one of their "traditional" artifacts and ONLY WE whose ancestors invented rifles have the moral birthright to own them. After all, we all want to be *traditional*, eh................

So should we also stop using gunpowder (which is most certainly not an invention of Europeans)?

[DeepJeep]

This drives me nutts!

Its on private land. Shouldn't it have same implications as any other person? If it was crown land, I could still understand...but not on private land. With RCMP there as a witness, there is an easy case of tresspassing (to begin with...).

[Fisher-Dude]

The law of trespass in Canada is made up of tort law, provincial legislation, and criminal law.

Tort law
Trespass to land is one of the oldest torts known in law. Historically, it has been held to occur whenever there has been an unauthorized physical intrusion onto the private property of another. Trespass also occurs when a person remains on an individual’s land after permission has been withdrawn.

Trespass to land is actionable “per se”. That means that someone can be sued and found liable for trespassing even if there is no proof of damage. In a trespass case, if the incident was for particularly malicious purposes, such as to intimidate the land owner, even punitive damages may apply.

That said, however, any person can go onto the private property of another during daylight hours if permission to do so is implied. For example, if there is a path up to the front door of a residence and there are no signs warning people to stay off the land, there is implied permission for people to enter, such as a letter carrier. This implied permission can, of course, be revoked instantly by the person in charge of the property. If you are told to leave, you must leave or you could be sued for trespass.

Provincial regulation
Every province in Canada has trespass legislation, such as Nova Scotia’s Protection of Privacy Act, the British Columbia Trespass Act, the Trespass to Property Act in Saskatchewan and PEI, and the Trespass to Premises Act in Alberta. Only the territories rely on common law. In some provinces, Privacy Acts, Motor Vehicle Acts, Fish and Wildlife Acts, and even All Terrain Vehicle Acts may give a legal right to an owner to prosecute trespassers.

The purpose of any trespass legislation is to give greater control over entry to or use of an owner’s or tenant’s premises, to provide penalties and remedies for breaches of the Act, and to facilitate the recreational use of private lands.

The law, in most cases, does not take away an owner’s or tenant’s right to sue for trespass, but usually grants the government the authority to seek its own sanctions as a way to control this sort of behaviour.

While trespassing is usually defined as the unlawful entry onto the private land of another, it also includes performing an unlawful activity on the land and refusing to leave when told to do so.

In some provinces there is a reverse onus provision. This means a person is presumed to be trespassing if he or she is found in a private garden, field, or other land under cultivation, inside lands that are fenced for livestock or cultivation, and on lands where notice has been posted. It is noteworthy that trespass is not presumed in privately owned natural areas if it is not posted as prohibited. This point is in line with the philosophy of encouraging recreational activity on privately held lands.

Offenders may be fined, in some cases up-to several thousand dollars.

There are a number of defences available to a person charged under provincial trespass legislation. If there is a fair and reasonable supposition that an accused had a right to be on the land, an accused may be acquitted. As noted, there is also an implied permission to approach a door of a building unless there is a notice that warns people to stay away.

Criminal law
Entering onto private land at night is treated much differently, and implied permission does not extend to trespassing at night, which is a criminal offence. The Criminal Code makes it an offence to loiter or prowl at night on the property of another person near a dwelling-house situated on that property. “Night” is defined by the Criminal Code as between 9:00 p.m. and 6:00 a.m. “Dwelling-house” is defined as a permanent or temporary residence and anything attached to it.

The essence of loitering is wandering about apparently without precise destination. It is conduct that essentially has nothing reprehensible about it as long as it does not take place on private property where the loiterer has no business. The substance of prowling is to move about stealthily, furtively, secretly, and clandestinely or move in small degrees.

The prosecutor does not have to prove that the accused was looking for an opportunity to carry out an unlawful purpose. Where prowling is proved, the accused is required to prove he or she had a lawful excuse for being there.

For legal advice and assistance, contact a lawyer.


http://www.legalline.ca/legal-answers/trespassing-on-someones-property/

[edgar11]

Can you clarify the above as I think that concern over such situations IS most definitely a legitimate concern for all *rhs* and any other Canadian, who supports true democracy.Sorry to say BgBlkDg that your "true democracy" is what built these laws in which these Aboriginal Person(s) are following. That is why the RCMP and Co 's are doing nothing about it. What you should be asking yourself is why your democratic system has done nothing to amend or improve this ruling after this many years? Don't you think they are a little outdated and that there is room for improvement? I disagree with harvesting females too but I seem to get grouped in with all other FN's saying that we hunt anything without any regard for conservation. Why don't they implement a system where if you have legit reasons to harvest an animal(sustenance purposes) then why can't you apply for it so it can be monitored? Then those who abuse it can be penalized. The problem is that you and me are not decision makers and this system that we must live under makes it difficult to get through to. People need to stop ranting and start looking at constructive ways to solve the problem if we want change and blaming the FN people is not going to help or change anything.

[Grizzlydick]

RCMP an the CO were most likely in conversation with their respected offices, as to what to do.
Bet ya the answer from both was "we don't want to touch that".
Round and round we go.................

Regardless of ones view, you have to draw the line when there is a unborn involved.

[Gateholio]

So should we also stop using gunpowder (which is most certainly not an invention of Europeans)?

.


The powder you would use in a .270 is of European descent. French, actually.

[jassmine]

.


The powder you would use in a .270 is of European descent. French, actually.

That's the point, the technology of humans is not reserved for one particular people.

. Guns are NOT one of their "traditional" artifacts and ONLY WE whose ancestors invented rifles have the moral birthright to own them. After all, we all want to be *traditional*, eh................

We only advance as a people by sharing our advances in science and technology. Not boxing them away for one particular group of people.

[jassmine]

.


The powder you would use in a .270 is of European descent. French, actually.


Guns are NOT one of their "traditional" artifacts and ONLY WE whose ancestors invented rifles have the moral birthright to own them. After all, we all want to be *traditional*, eh................


But if you think that only the French should be allowed to use smokeless gun powder, that is definitely your prerogative

[Gateholio]

That's the point, the technology of humans is not reserved for one particular people.


.
People have never been 100% transparent with technology. It's usually shared when it becomes common and there is no point of concealing it anymore, or if it benefits the creators of the technology to share it.

This is getting off topic, but yes, people of European descent have been very generous sharing technology to native people in north america.

[HighCountryBC]

What's the point to this thread Mr. Hubbard? Attempting to rile the rh's to help protect YOUR elk? We all know what emotions these types of situations conjure up with rh's, and there's no need inflame them.

Give your head a shake, Troy. This is something that absolutely should rile us up. Give the personal stuff a rest. If you can't see the major issue here then I'm not sure what to say. This is a big problem in that area and should get the attention it deserves.

[edgar11]

That's the point, the technology of humans is not reserved for one particular people.We only advance as a people by sharing our advances in science and technology. Not boxing them away for one particular group of people.The whole argument reminds of the little kid who picks up his Tonka Truck and goes home because he doesn't want to share with the other kids in the sandbox. With the process of evolution in over a hundred years and most likely contact with another immigrant over those years, they would most likely introduce different technologies (through trade and barter for e.g.) so the whole argument is moot.

[Gateholio]

But if you think that only the French should be allowed to use smokeless gun powder, that is definitely your prerogative

.I see you have been Googling! You are very good at that. But technically it's not "smokeless gun powder" It's propellant.

The British developed cordite, which was also an early smokeless propellant.

A Canadian designed the USA M1 Garand.

And so on.....

[jassmine]

.I see you have been Googling! You are very good at that. But technically it's not "smokeless gun powder" It's propellant.

The British developed cordite, which was also an early smokeless propellant.

A Canadian designed the USA M1 Garand.

And so on.....

Sorry for the mistake.
But I disagree with BgBlkDg and your desire to limit the use of particular technologies to the people who invented/discovered them.


Guns are NOT one of their "traditional" artifacts and ONLY WE whose ancestors invented rifles have the moral birthright to own them. After all, we all want to be *traditional*, eh................

[huntcoop]

I sure hope this poacher is not cutting down the landowners fence post..........

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/16388293_10211546735161740_2953428373291407839_n.j pg

[Gateholio]

But I disagree with your desire to limit the use of particular technologies to the people who invented/discovered them.

.
Where did I say that?

Or, as you would say "feel free to show where I said that"
:roll:

[wideopenthrottle]

jassy..that was a classic redirect.....
Q#1 Do you think FN hunting rights should extend to private property?
Q#2 Do you think FN should have the right to kill any animal anytime regardless of sex, population health numbers or during the hardest part of winter
Q#3 Do you think that this case should result in charges under existing laws

[jassmine]

.
Where did I say that?

Or, as you would say "feel free to show where I said that"
:roll:

Well the point I was making was in reference to BgBlkDg wanting to ban FNs from having firearms.


IGuns are NOT one of their "traditional" artifacts and ONLY WE whose ancestors invented rifles have the moral birthright to own them. After all, we all want to be *traditional*, eh................


So should we also stop using gunpowder (which is most certainly not an invention of Europeans)?

Then you chimed in, to indicate that the propellant currently in use is not chinese.

So being the moderator and all, I believed that you would be following along in the conversation that was happening who's topic was FN rights (or what turned into a removal of rights to own firearms).
Being a moderator, I assumed that you would not be posting something off-topic or extraneous (key elements of the definition of an Internet troll), and believed you joined this particular discussion outlining the origin of propellant to stay on topic, hence, being more targeted with the ban on key technologies only to particular people.

But if not, and you simply wanted to post something extraneous or off-topic to the conversation at hand, sorry my mistake.

[DeepJeep]

This is what its actually about...



Q#1 Do you think FN hunting rights should extend to private property?
Q#2 Do you think FN should have the right to kill any animal anytime regardless of sex, population health numbers or during the hardest part of winter
Q#3 Do you think that this case should result in charges under existing laws

[jassmine]

jassy..that was a classic redirect.....

Where's the redirect?
I was simply responding to posts that posted before me or in response to me.

[BgBlkDg]

The whole argument reminds of the little kid who picks up his Tonka Truck and goes home because he doesn't want to share with the other kids in the sandbox. With the process of evolution in over a hundred years and most likely contact with another immigrant over those years, they would most likely introduce different technologies (through trade and barter for e.g.) so the whole argument is moot.


"little kid", well, about what 50+ years of contact/experience with your ilk have taught me to expect.

The actual source of "gunpowder" is generally considered to be the "Grecian Fire" used by the various city states and peoples of antiquity, EUROPEANS, although there were probably Asian formulae of a similar nature in the same era.

I absolutely favour total disarmament of ALL of the minority persons of the contemporary "status" groups. There is NO valid reason to share with them in view of their violent, aggressive and extremely racist behaviour.

That, is all I have to say on the matter as I must mount a scope on my No2. Dakota 76-.338WM.

[Ourea]

Sorry to say BgBlkDg that your "true democracy" is what built these laws in which these Aboriginal Person(s) are following. That is why the RCMP and Co 's are doing nothing about it. What you should be asking yourself is why your democratic system has done nothing to amend or improve this ruling after this many years? Don't you think they are a little outdated and that there is room for improvement? I disagree with harvesting females too but I seem to get grouped in with all other FN's saying that we hunt anything without any regard for conservation. Why don't they implement a system where if you have legit reasons to harvest an animal(sustenance purposes) then why can't you apply for it so it can be monitored? Then those who abuse it can be penalized. The problem is that you and me are not decision makers and this system that we must live under makes it difficult to get through to. People need to stop ranting and start looking at constructive ways to solve the problem if we want change and blaming the FN people is not going to help or change anything.

Some valid points edgar11 about stereotyping FN and their hunting practices and simply playing the blame game.
Bitching fixes nothing.
Having said that, there are some big BUTS, and I mean some BIG BUTS in your comments.
Every effort to regulate FN hunting rights with some form of regulated harvest and accountability HAS BEEN FAUGHT TOOTH AND NAIL BY FN!

Firstly, no person has the right to trespass on someone else's property.
No one has the right to discharge firearms on someone's private property.
No one has the right to kill wildlife on someone's private property.
(Guaranteed if anyone showed up on FN land and killed an animal royal shit would hit the fan with legal repercussions!!!)

The reason there is no enforcement is because FN HAS PUSHED AND FAUGHT THIS ISSUE TO THE LIMITS!!
Despite the fact that science is the basis for controlled harvest for sustainability, FN wants no part or accountability on this issue.....trumping the fact it is their "rights".

There are efforts being made for regulated hunters to have their harvest reduced in support of FN's "rights" for the best chunk of the pie with unregulated harvest. This is not democracy, this is exploitation.

When less than 3% of the hunting community becomes responsible for over 75% of the harvest in some areas, on some species .....problems will arise.

Bigger picture.......
They are taking a natural resource outside of regulation and law.
If a group of people are allowed to kill wildlife on posted private property with no repercussions .......
What's next..... they want the timber....they want the minerals.....they want the water.

Not being chicken little here but there are members within the FN community that are pushing for just this.
The line in the sand keeps getting erased.

Sad part is the wildlife resource we both cherish so much is taking the brunt of it.
Truly sad.

[wideopenthrottle]

Where's the redirect?
I was simply responding to posts that posted before me or in response to me.

not addressing specifics in this case but rather focusing in on irrelevant history of who invented what and when

can you answer my 3 questions directly pertaining to the case at hand

[DeepJeep]

BgBlkDg, Those are your beliefs and you you are absolutely entitled to them, however, I am sure not ALL of them are doing this. Even though I do get upset at events like these, blaming an entire particular group or any similar extreme measure of that sort is not going to sit well with any group, let alone in the media. Especially in today's day and age. Politicians are just not going to touch that.

In my opinion, more regulations around hunting in the winter/off season, regardless of who you are, would help. One set of regulations for all. Not sure if that going to be possible though.

If some one really needs food that bad, they can get a job and go buy it a grocery store. They wont starve.

As wideopenthrottle mentioned, to me, its about this:

Q#1 Do you think FN hunting rights should extend to private property?
Q#2 Do you think FN should have the right to kill any animal anytime regardless of sex, population health numbers or during the hardest part of winter
Q#3 Do you think that this case should result in charges under existing laws

[Gateholio]

Well the point I was making was in reference to BgBlkDg wanting to ban FNs from having firearms.





Then you chimed in, to indicate that the propellant currently in use is not chinese.

So being the moderator and all, I believed that you would be following along in the conversation that was happening who's topic was FN rights (or what turned into a removal of rights to own firearms).
Being a moderator, I assumed that you would not be posting something off-topic or extraneous (key elements of the definition of an Internet troll), and believed you joined this particular discussion outlining the origin of propellant to stay on topic, hence, being more targeted with the ban on key technologies only to particular people.

But if not, and you simply wanted to post something extraneous or off-topic to the conversation at hand, sorry my mistake.


So basically, you just "decided" I said something that I didn't.

You could have just come out and said "sorry, I made a mistake, you didn't actually say that, I was wrong"

Would have saved lots of time.

[jassmine]

Every effort to regulate FN hunting rights with some form of regulated harvest and accountability HAS BEEN FAUGHT TOOTH AND NAIL BY FN!

The reason there is no enforcement is because FN HAS PUSHED AND FAUGHT THIS ISSUE TO THE LIMITS!!
Despite the fact that science is the basis for controlled harvest for sustainability, FN wants no part or accountability on this issue.....trumping the fact it is their "rights".



The primary reason is, is because FN often have little say in the formulation of laws or policies involved with the harvest.

We see the same thing in Conservation Biology all the time. We make decisions and formulate methodologies to protect particular species and then try to force them upon these communities, saying that we know best.
What we forgot are these communities have a Nation to Nation relationship with Canada (being proven increasingly in courts), and as such any regulations and laws we try to force upon them often don't hold up to the tenets of treaties and FN rights which allow FN self-governance.

I believe we are going to make very little progress until we FN into the decision making process at all levels (enforcement, public service/policy analyst, government decision making). We are only now beginning to do this in our conservation work and through these types of partnerships we've managed to secure better protection and potential increases in land for some species.

[jassmine]

So basically, you just "decided" I said something that I didn't.


I decided based on you being a moderator that you would not be posting something extraneous or off-topic to the conversation/response that was taking place, yes.
Sorry, I was wrong, I assumed wrongly that you would follow normal internet forum protocol and stay on topic.
Again, my mistake, apologies.

[Gateholio]

I decided based on you being a moderator that you would not be posting something extraneous or off-topic to the conversation/response that was taking place, yes.
Sorry, I was wrong, I assumed wrongly that you would follow normal internet forum protocol and stay on topic.
Again, my mistake, apologies.

I guess it was too much to expect that you wouldn't just simply admit you made a little mistake. All this effort just to avoid that. That's pretty interesting, and says volumes about you.

[willyqbc]

Dont neccesarily think law enforcement and govt are "gutless" on this issue, really caught between a rock and a hard place. Consider what would happen if they are charged/convicted and the court system in some level of appeal overturns the conviction?? Now suddenly it is above the board legal for fn to tresspass to hunt. ..not charging them may be an attempt to keep such rulings from ever getting on the books. I believe some fn people do this sort of thing purposefully hoping it will result in a day in court that may deliver them a favorable ruling.

Chris

[jassmine]

I guess it was too much to expect that you wouldn't just simply admit you made a little mistake. All this effort just to avoid that. That's pretty interesting, and says volumes about you.

I apologized on post #54, as well as my last post.
Attempting to characterize me in a particular way, by saying I didn't apologize also says just as much about you.

[Ourea]

The primary reason is, is because FN often have little say in the formulation of laws or policies involved with the harvest.

We see the same thing in Conservation Biology all the time. We make decisions and formulate methodologies to protect particular species and then try to force them upon these communities, saying that we know best.
What we forgot are these communities have a Nation to Nation relationship with Canada (being proven increasingly in courts), and as such any regulations and laws we try to force upon them often don't hold up to the tenets of treaties and FN rights which allow FN self-governance.

I believe we are going to make very little progress until we FN into the decision making process at all levels (enforcement, public service/policy analyst, government decision making). We are only now beginning to do this in our conservation work and through these types of partnerships we've managed to secure better protection and potential increases in land for some species.

You make me want to stick a rusty fork in my eye sometimes.

Wildlife is suffering.
The resource is shrinking.
It takes some form of control to help manage the resource to minimize negative impacts.
Uncontrolled harvest of the breeding population of most species has detrimental affects on health and numbers.

The science behind this is sound.

Talk and reference all you like about treaties and political ideologies.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, wildlife is being killed to the detriment of the population.

[Gateholio]

I apologized on post #54, as well as my last post.
Attempting to characterize me in a particular way, by saying I didn't apologize also says just as much about you.

That's even more interesting that you consider that an apology or admission that you made a simple mistake. This is actually fascinating.

[Piperdown]

You make me want to stick a rusty fork in my eye sometimes.

Wildlife is suffering.
The resource is shrinking.
It takes some form of control to help manage the resource to minimize negative impacts.
Uncontrolled harvest of the breeding population of most species has detrimental affects on health and numbers.

The science behind this is sound.

Talk and reference all you like about treaties and political ideologies.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, wildlife is being killed to the detriment of the population.

Can't agree more with you, but the line in red is the best line i have read on this site ever :)

[jassmine]

You make me want to stick a rusty fork in my eye sometimes.

Wildlife is suffering.
The resource is shrinking.
It takes some form of control to help manage the resource to minimize negative impacts.
Uncontrolled harvest of the breeding population of most species has detrimental affects on health and numbers.

The science behind this is sound.

Talk and reference all you like about treaties and political ideologies.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, wildlife is being killed to the detriment of the population.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all.
It's similar to climate change, the science is also quite sound (in many cases moreso), but until all stakeholders buy in - political parties, levels of government, citizenry, etc - nothing at all will get accomplished and we'll continue to fight over half-measures that do nothing to solve the ultimate problem.

We know there is a problem but no one is doing anything about it because each side has their own perspective and all groups are not willing to make concessions to appease the concerns of others. This polarity is what keeps things from going forward. Only by bringing every one to the same decision making table do things ever get accomplished.

[dellis]

The primary reason is, is because FN often have little say in the formulation of laws or policies involved with the harvest.


/\ This is not a true statement.
When laws regarding harvest of wildlife are being considered, FN(I hate that term and do not believe it is accurate) actually have veto power over the implementation of new seasons, etc.

Example. In the central interior, there was a proposal put forward for an archery, 3 point elk season, which was accepted by all parties, until it got to the FN who stopped it in it's tracks. Their reasoning was, the moose population was down so the need to start harvesting more elk to compensate. Or, to simplify that a bit.......We want them, you can't have them. End of story, no new season for the general public.

That also applies to fishing, mining, logging, pipe-line right of ways, and all sorts of land use decisions as well.

Private property rights need to be upheld, or there will be very troubled times ahead.

Darcy

[wideopenthrottle]

I'm not disagreeing with you at all.
It's similar to climate change, the science is also quite sound (in many cases moreso), but until all stakeholders buy in - political parties, levels of government, citizenry, etc - nothing at all will get accomplished and we'll continue to fight over half-measures that do nothing to solve the ultimate problem.

We know there is a problem but no one is doing anything about it because each side has their own perspective and all groups are not willing to make concessions to appease the concerns of others. This polarity is what keeps things from going forward. Only by bringing every one to the same decision making table do things ever get accomplished.

Until science finally proves that it is pollution (especially airborn particulate) rather than the CO2 red herring, we will continue to fiddle while Rome burns.... that IS the problem

[Xenomorph]

This is so ridiculous I don't even know where to start. Meanwhile, as the squabble goes on, wildlife is shot down illegally and nothing's being done to charge the culprits, or to protect the landowner and game from further damage.

Give me a break with sorry discourses, this is poaching, pure and simple. You can be an ethical hunter as much as you like, let's see who's going to be blamed 20 years from now when no more game is to be had no more.

Seriously though, some of you shouldn't even be around this site. If those are the lessons you teach your children, then **** outta here and leave us alone.

On a serious note, since the RCMP, COs and government does nothing, what I am wondering is WHEN will BCWF open up a suit against the band and when will you people smarten up and stop wasting your breath here. It's the courts and the voting polls that the real change will be effected.

As to the OP, could you please PM your number. I want to talk to you.

[Fisher-Dude]

There are efforts being made for regulated hunters to have their harvest reduced in support of FN's "rights" for the best chunk of the pie with unregulated harvest. This is not democracy, this is exploitation.




Already happened.

Resident hunters lost 862 animals to FN allocation just last month.


http://bcwf.net/images/stories/ResidentPriorityProgram/Allocation%20impact%20assessment%20tables_dec22-1.pdf

[Ourea]

I'm not disagreeing with you at all.
It's similar to climate change, the science is also quite sound (in many cases moreso), but until all stakeholders buy in - political parties, levels of government, citizenry, etc - nothing at all will get accomplished and we'll continue to fight over half-measures that do nothing to solve the ultimate problem.

We know there is a problem but no one is doing anything about it because each side has their own perspective and all groups are not willing to make concessions to appease the concerns of others. This polarity is what keeps things from going forward. Only by bringing every one to the same decision making table do things ever get accomplished.

Sweet baby Jesus girl....there are endless discussions going on about this with the stakeholders!!!!
Some are wanting to only play the game as long as there are no rules for them.

There is a plan and an understanding of what needs to be done.
It will take a lot of sustainable funding OUTSIDE OF GOVERNMENT.
It will take education for FN and RH's.
It will take getting the message out to the average BC citizen.
Wildlife is at a critical crossroads in this province.

Wildlife is arguably our biggest resource.
It agonizes me to listen to people fight in the mud.
The blame game never ends.

Look in the f*cking mirror people.
The solution starts there when asked.

[jassmine]

There is a plan and an understanding of what needs to be done.


Well what is the plan that has a chance to get everyone on board (asking earnestly, because I have never seen a good one elaborated)?

[finngun]

Merry we go around,,,around,,,,white man can talk,,,and thats ALL,,unless we united ,,and really push political people to do something radical..
WHO?WHEN?WHERE?That's gonna happen?
Are our grandchildren in same 'jam'...than we are?:frown:

[Ourea]

Well what is the plan that has a chance to get everyone on board (asking earnestly, because I have never seen a good one elaborated)?

Stay tuned.

[REMINGTON JIM]

Ah ! " KEEPERS " of the land at it again - :icon_frow Prob all Starving down there and really needed the meat ! :roll: RJ

[REMINGTON JIM]

Well what is the plan that has a chance to get everyone on board (asking earnestly, because I have never seen a good one elaborated)?

So Little Miss Know it All :lol: What your IDEA's on how to fix things - Share your REAL thoughts with us Please ! :biggrin:

Cheers RJ

[ridge walker]

Well whonnock Boy you just took this out of the box to a higher level naming me, so u hiding behind your username I my assume that you might be one of the hunters? Which one. Cole, Fred or Felix Kruger these r the three hunter. I ask you what was the real point of shooting these elk right in front of my driveway if I was home you think I woud of just sat there and maybe invited you in for coffee, I believe there was a lot of more reason behind this. I tell you of some of my thoughts but if I had a goal it would be to sit down with your elders/chief and concel and have a productive discussion on the future of our wildlife population within the Okanagan Nation for all user groups and there children. Other First Nations in this province are realizing that there is not a sustainable population of wildlife without rules and regulations within their communities. We need to get together and talk about all our issues and concern and try and partner together for everybody best interest and family. One may have the court protected rights to do something but that does not mean it should be thrown into people faces and not expect a reaction when it's not publicly excepted. The ministry of environment manager wildlife with seasons/sex and horn restrictions for a reason and that is to have a stastainabke wildlfe population for all user groups future generations. But when one group with no will to respect the government management it become a unmanageable resource with no future. You now as well as all the other local hunters that there is a overharvest going on on our wildlife look at the deer population, moose are almost destroyed on the east side of the valley, elk r next. For your information I have harvested 2 bull elk in 7 yes 7 years and 3 Mule deer. I have to report my harvest to the government. We have lost our all age class in Our Mule deer/elk and moose these animals no longer have any guidance I ask you what would happen if you lost all your elders and how would the rest of the comunitee

[Ourea]

Merry we go around,,,around,,,,white man can talk,,,and thats ALL,,unless we united ,,and really push political people to do something radical..
WHO?WHEN?WHERE?That's gonna happen?
Are our grandchildren in same 'jam'...than we are?:frown:

What's the leverage to make change?

Answer.....
$$$ and votes.
This is the only currency Gov understands.

Wildlife's future needs non hook and bullet people to get behind conservation projects.
More numbers aligned behind the cause.

Projects take $$$
Gov will not pay for this message nor fund projects.

[LeverActionJunkie]

Wildlife is at a critical crossroads in this province.

Wildlife is arguably our biggest resource.
It agonizes me to listen to people fight in the mud.
The blame game never ends.

Look in the f*cking mirror people.
The solution starts there when asked.

110% agree with this statement. Very well put.

Hope we don't look back on this time as the chance we "had" but couldn't make happen.

[Whonnock Boy]

As I have said in another reply, I'm not saying that we shouldn't be riled up. I question what the motive is for a guy to post such an inflammatory topic after having not posted in almost 3 years, especially considering his business ownership, one of which involves wildlife allocation and his "fair" share. If that doesn't make you go hmmmmm...., carry on.


Give your head a shake, Troy. This is something that absolutely should rile us up. Give the personal stuff a rest. If you can't see the major issue here then I'm not sure what to say. This is a big problem in that area and should get the attention it deserves.

[wideopenthrottle]

The sad part about the management of resources is that, often, we let thing get real bad before we finally make a change...perhaps we will need to ride to hell in a handcart for awhile longer before we actually get change for the better

[REMINGTON JIM]

jassy..that was a classic redirect.....
Q#1 Do you think FN hunting rights should extend to private property?
Q#2 Do you think FN should have the right to kill any animal anytime regardless of sex, population health numbers or during the hardest part of winter
Q#3 Do you think that this case should result in charges under existing laws

My answer to #1 NO !
""""""""""""""" #2 NO !
""""""""""""""" #3 YES !

We need One Law for everyone ! and the FN Special needs laws need to go away ! :( jmo RJ

[westcom]

Damn that was at least 20feet off the road! I am surprised they still shot them, quick the pack out for them. White man road, rifle and truck. Get on foot and use a damn bow

[Dannybuoy]

What's the leverage to make change?

Answer.....
$$$ and votes.
This is the only currency Gov understands.

Wildlife's future needs non hook and bullet people to get behind conservation projects.
More numbers aligned behind the cause.

Projects take $$$
Gov will not pay for this message nor fund projects.

"grand chief" Stuart Phillips is running the show down there . I would think that he supports these criminals (poachers) 100%

[Ourea]

"grand chief" Stuart Phillips is running the show down there . I would think that he supports these criminals (poachers) 100%

I have no respect for Chief Phillips as a human being

[wideopenthrottle]

Well what is the plan that has a chance to get everyone on board (asking earnestly, because I have never seen a good one elaborated)?

sorry jass, if I had said "asking earnestly" would you have answered my 3 very clear questions to you?

[1899]

That's the point, the technology of humans is not reserved for one particular people.


We only advance as a people by sharing our advances in science and technology. Not boxing them away for one particular group of people.

The flaw in your reasoning is that not everyone has special Rights, entrenched in the Charter, that allows them to use technology in a non-traditional way to the detriment of all others in society, not to mention the detriment to nature.

The sharing of, and use of, technology only advances "us as people" if it is used responsibly.

[ridge walker]

Whonnock Boy (Troy Halliday) u got to try and spin it your way but bottom line is that this needs to come to a head and I extend the invitation to your Eldrs, chief and council to sit down and have a productive conversation for the betterment of all the wildlife populations in the Okanagan Nation before some of these populations are beyond recovery. Marc Hubbard ( wildlife stewardship is our priority)

[Whonnock Boy]

You've made the wrong assumptions. I was named in another post on this very thread. I just find it interesting that you of all people are coming for some sort of support from RH's after having been one of the greatest defenders of guide allocation. What did you get this go around for allocation? 2 extra sheep for what? Another 100K in your pocket? Who needs elk when you have sheep? Call me a conspiracy theorist, don't matter to me. I don't believe for a second that your only intention was to shed light onto to something that we all already know so much about. Yes, this sucks. Yes, wildlife is hurting. Yes, we need to do better. No, I don't trust you.


Well whonnock Boy you just took this out of the box to a higher level naming me, so u hiding behind your username I my assume that you might be one of the hunters? Which one. Cole, Fred or Felix Kruger these r the three hunter. I ask you what was the real point of shooting these elk right in front of my driveway if I was home you think I woud of just sat there and maybe invited you in for coffee, I believe there was a lot of more reason behind this. I tell you of some of my thoughts but if I had a goal it would be to sit down with your elders/chief and concel and have a productive discussion on the future of our wildlife population within the Okanagan Nation for all user groups and there children. Other First Nations in this province are realizing that there is not a sustainable population of wildlife without rules and regulations within their communities. We need to get together and talk about all our issues and concern and try and partner together for everybody best interest and family. One may have the court protected rights to do something but that does not mean it should be thrown into people faces and not expect a reaction when it's not publicly excepted. The ministry of environment manager wildlife with seasons/sex and horn restrictions for a reason and that is to have a stastainabke wildlfe population for all user groups future generations. But when one group with no will to respect the government management it become a unmanageable resource with no future. You now as well as all the other local hunters that there is a overharvest going on on our wildlife look at the deer population, moose are almost destroyed on the east side of the valley, elk r next. For your information I have harvested 2 bull elk in 7 yes 7 years and 3 Mule deer. I have to report my harvest to the government. We have lost our all age class in Our Mule deer/elk and moose these animals no longer have any guidance I ask you what would happen if you lost all your elders and how would the rest of the comunitee

[finngun]

[QUOTE=Ourea;1874642]What's the leverage to make change?

Answer.....
$$$ and votes.
Yes i vote always...but i never see politician yet who promises huge chance with indian act,,,equal rights,,,equal laws,,i'm still waiting:-)
This is the only currency Gov understands.

[1899]

You make me want to stick a rusty fork in my eye sometimes.

...

Talk and reference all you like about treaties and political ideologies.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, wildlife is being killed to the detriment of the population.


She is tainted by her university indoctrination. Her posts reflect a lack of real life experience - she approaches these problems through the lens of academia - it's obvious in the way she answers questions. Hopefully she will mellow and come around once she gains some wisdom, and hopefully she will put her brains to use for finding pragmatic solutions.

[wideopenthrottle]

She is tainted by her university indoctrination. Her posts reflect a lack of real life experience - she approaches these problems through the lens of academia - it's obvious in the way she answers questions. Hopefully she will mellow and come around once she gains some wisdom, and hopefully she will put her brains to use for finding pragmatic solutions.

that is how I fell as well.....we need jassmines on our side.....not to be condescending jass but when you get older and more experienced in life, you will find not all truth comes from a book...and to be earnest, I feel you will reach that point some day soon (once your experience catches up to your education

[AgSilver]

She is tainted by her university indoctrination. Her posts reflect a lack of real life experience - she approaches these problems through the lens of academia - it's obvious in the way she answers questions. Hopefully she will mellow and come around once she gains some wisdom, and hopefully she will put her brains to use for finding pragmatic solutions.


that is how I fell as well.....we need jassmines on our side.....not to be condescending jass but when you get older and more experienced in life, you will find not all truth comes from a book...and to be earnest, I feel you will reach that point some day soon (once your experience catches up to your education

You guys aren't wrong in that "real stuff" needs to be done; however, a significant amount of credit has to be conveyed to Jass. We can't solve problems until we know WHY they're problems. Otherwise, they're band-aids that don't get to the issue at hand and create even bigger problems.

I, personally, haven't had time to read the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's reports (the summary is a 535 page PDF); however, I understand them to be quite scathing.

On the surface, one law for all is very appealing. But are we able to do that while maintaining our human rights, rule of law, and ethnic diversity obligations? I'd like to think we can find a way.

[jassmine]

The flaw in your reasoning is that not everyone has special Rights, entrenched in the Charter, .

Special rights accorded to them due to the fact that their communities were here long before Canada came along and removed many of their human rights and subjugated them to Canadian laws and Policies.
Rights that are in line with the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People.

[jassmine]

She is tainted by her university indoctrination. Her posts reflect a lack of real life experience - she approaches these problems through the lens of academia - it's obvious in the way she answers questions.

When you're job is a researcher/scientist there aren't many other ways to look at conservation biology problems than through the lens of academia.
What is the lens of academia? Evidence based policy and methodology? To me that doesn't sound all that bad.

Not sure why or how that you think education taints someone. In fact the scientific method specifically allows you to analyze and interpret the evidence to free yourself from whatever political/cultural beliefs you may have.
I have only been involved working on the front line in conservation biology with government and local stakeholders for the past 5 , so I probably do need more experience. But equally I think you could use a few years of some "indoctrination" and allow some of your experience to be tainted by some actual education.

[boxhitch]

Cole, Fred or Felix Kruger these r the three hunter

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/16387866_10211546470635127_773071883631867852_n.jp g

La vendetta es una minestra che se mangia fredda, my friend,
..........................

[Fisher-Dude]

When you're job is a researcher/scientist there aren't many other ways to look at conservation biology problems than through the lens of academia.


Academia is failing us all with the illiterate snowflakes they are releasing into the real world.

[sawmill]

When you're job is a researcher/scientist there aren't many other ways to look at conservation biology problems than through the lens of academia.
What is the lens of academia? Evidence based policy and methodology? To me that doesn't sound all that bad.

Not sure why or how that you think education taints someone. In fact the scientific method specifically allows you to analyze and interpret the evidence to free yourself from whatever political/cultural beliefs you may have.
I used to know a guy who we used to say was so smart that he was stupid. Very well school educated ,did not have the first goddamn clue about life it`s ownself. But he had degrees and was one of the most arrogant SOB`s you will ever meet. Also had teachers like that. Those ass heads would die in the first 3 days of a power outage.
Don`t EVER mistake school learning for Education.

[REMINGTON JIM]

I know a Brain Surgeon who could not get a fire going with a Gal of Shell Gas and a Box of Eddys Matches but could prob save your life in the operating room - We Know What we Know ! :lol: jmo RJ

[jassmine]

I used to know a guy who we used to say was so smart that he was stupid. Very well school educated ,did not have the first goddamn clue about life it`s ownself.

So...
Yes and I know dozens of hunters/outdoorsmen/ cousins and friends with low to no post highschool education who all have an opinion on resource management but who I would not trust for a second on crafting any wildlife management policy.
So you're coming to a hasting generalization that can apply to anyone (and is also a logical fallacy).

[BgBlkDg]

Special rights accorded to them due to the fact that their communities were here long before Canada came along and removed many of their human rights and subjugated them to Canadian laws and Policies.
Rights that are in line with the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People.

Do you actually believe that the attitudes, beliefs, opinions and cultural practices of the SCORES of very different pre-contact peoples in just what is now Canada, were what the UN policy is as stated in their "Declaration"? Can, anyone, even you, actually be that obtuse, ahistorical and totally wrong?

The vile UN is NOT the source for we CANADIANS to draw OUR policies from and WE should withdraw from it as should the UK, the USA, Australia and New Zealand ASAP.

I will NOT be told by the foul UN what MY country will do, so, kindly learn some factual Canadian history and watch your mouth about "subjugate" as insults to my, among others, pioneer ancestors rile me a mite.

[BgBlkDg]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/16387866_10211546470635127_773071883631867852_n.jp g

La vendetta es una minestra che se mangia fredda, my friend,
..........................


My favourite Italian proverb, "Revenge is a meal best eaten cold"......another, British, at Waterloo, from The Iron Duke, "UP Guards and at 'em"!!!! My last English ancestor, GGF, was an officer in the Grenadier Guards, so, the sentiment is MY "tradition"....... :)

[jassmine]

I will NOT be told by the foul UN what MY country will do, so, kindly learn some factual Canadian history and watch your mouth about "subjugate" as insults to my, among others, pioneer ancestors rile me a mite.

It's quite hard to pioneer something, when there are scores of other people, languages (at least 60, not counting the many dialects likely lost), culture and nations in the place you are pioneering (i.e. Canada a word that pops up in Huron, and Haudenosaunee languages_.
So kudos.

Pioneering: a person who is among the first to explore or settle a new country or area.

[AgSilver]

Do you actually believe that the attitudes, beliefs, opinions and cultural practices of the SCORES of very different pre-contact peoples in just what is now Canada, were what the UN policy is as stated in their "Declaration"? Can, anyone, even you, actually be that obtuse, ahistorical and totally wrong?

The vile UN is NOT the source for we CANADIANS to draw OUR policies from and WE should withdraw from it as should the UK, the USA, Australia and New Zealand ASAP.

I will NOT be told by the foul UN what MY country will do, so, kindly learn some factual Canadian history and watch your mouth about "subjugate" as insults to my, among others, pioneer ancestors rile me a mite.

With all due respect (which isn't really necessary, as you won't read this anyhow), do you honestly believe that indigenous peoples were not subjugated by our ancestors? If so, what is the basis of belief for that?

That's not to say that the people that are here now don't need to alter conduct to coincide with the reality of the current situation, but can you honestly deny subjugation?

[Steeleco]

I see the court of public opinion has hung these three guys. And I'd have to agree in some respects. BUT if the courts allow this to go unpunished why wouldn't they do these things. It's the courts as some have mentioned that need to held to account. Quit pandering to the minority groups of all walks and make one set of rules for all people.

Experience has taught me this thread can only go one direction, so!!