Replanting Logged Areas

[Arctic Lake]

Hello Fellas

When they replant areas that have been logged do they plant some areas in ways as to not encourage growth of species that would be moose browse ? Hunting this year I saw conifers about 8 feet tall with almost no space between them . Has this subject been covered on HBC' if so could someone provide a link .

Thanks
Arctic Lake

[Caribou_lou]

I find areas I hunt in region 6 the trees are planted too close together also. But appears to be great moose habitat. Lots of the roads you drive you can't see 30 yards into the thick re growth that is a challenge for us to walk through. But force your way through and it often opens and that's where I find the moose. Like I said before. That's what I have found where I hunt.

[Bonz]

i notice their tonight also, but during winter for me if found alot of deer bedding and trails in that, isnt moose but their in there
maybe once they get certain hight it may effect them and travel so they go elsewhere?. just a guess. deer arent so big and get hung up on trees as a moose would im sure

[Stillhunting]

On average, trees are planted about 2.9 meters apart in BC, a little tighter up north and a little wider on the coast. Natural regen. is mostly responsible for high density stands. Unfortunately, there is no value placed on wildlife habitat from a planting perspective, the site is viewed as crop. The issue is the requirement for licensees to meet free-growing standards which have been set by MOF..... In other words if there are not 1000 stems per hectare on average over the site the licensee is going to have to spend a bunch more money to make it so. Most licensees plant 1400 stems per hectare to be on the safe side.
We're seeing more drag scarification these days, where they don't plant at all, except maybe in the uglier areas like gullies or steep slopes. This seems to make for pretty thick regen. based on what I've surveyed, but it's much cheaper than planting. One thing planting has going for it is that it shortens rotation times, thus creating more logging jobs. Logging volumes have decreased substantially over most of the interior of the province to make up for the overharvesting that occurred in response to the MPB, so there will be fewer new cutblocks in the coming years.

[Bugle M In]

I find areas I hunt in region 6 the trees are planted too close together also. But appears to be great moose habitat. Lots of the roads you drive you can't see 30 yards into the thick re growth that is a challenge for us to walk through. But force your way through and it often opens and that's where I find the moose. Like I said before. That's what I have found where I hunt.

You can see 30 yrds into that stuff!!??
Wow, where I go in Reg 3, you cant even see 8 ft into the Regrowth!
It so thick, it's ridiculous. (meaning, far from "natural" IMO, definetly not like a fire regrowth, and much tighter
than was there previously)

[Bonz]

ive always wondered whats the reasons for leaving random clusters of trees in middle of cuts? natural replanting? or???

[takla1]

Think it has to do with leaveing oasis of natural habitat for animals
takla

[Bugle M In]

On average, trees are planted about 2.9 meters apart in BC, a little tighter up north and a little wider on the coast. Natural regen. is mostly responsible for high density stands. Unfortunately, there is no value placed on wildlife habitat from a planting perspective, the site is viewed as crop. The issue is the requirement for licensees to meet free-growing standards which have been set by MOF..... In other words if there are not 1000 stems per hectare on average over the site the licensee is going to have to spend a bunch more money to make it so. Most licensees plant 1400 stems per hectare to be on the safe side.
We're seeing more drag scarification these days, where they don't plant at all, except maybe in the uglier areas like gullies or steep slopes. This seems to make for pretty thick regen. based on what I've surveyed, but it's much cheaper than planting. One thing planting has going for it is that it shortens rotation times, thus creating more logging jobs. Logging volumes have decreased substantially over most of the interior of the province to make up for the overharvesting that occurred in response to the MPB, so there will be fewer new cutblocks in the coming years.

Yes, that is good info there.
I just wish that 2.9m was the reality between trees.
Yes, there are some areas that are planted like that ( only thing is, there is a lot of other "shrubs" that fill in really quick,
granted, as the trees grow, they will die off I suppose? )
But as my previous post, there are areas that to me, are way way overplanted, and I don't think they will ever be thinned out.
So, to be natural looking again would take years, but by then or even before then, these stands are up for harvesting
again I suppose.
Yes, the Pine Beetle has definitely created an impact to BC, and in more ways then I could have imagined
(the amount of logging, and the changes in practices, and not all of those changes appear to be positive IMO).
Definitely doesn't have Wildlife Habitat as the priority.
And now, since much of the trees affected by the PB have been cut down, the Companies are now back to
cutting some of the Good Timber still remaining (some in Winter Range Areas).
I understand, they have to keep people employed.
I don't want to bash anyone in the Forestry sector who is trying to make a living.
I am glad they can put food on the table and provide for their families.....wouldn't want to see that change.
Just saying, some of what I have seen just isn't positive for Wildlife.
And right now, Wildlife is being pounded (IMO) on so many different fronts, and habitat which they need has now
really been altered due to PB ( and let's not forget all the access roads that have been created).
Just my opinion here on this subject, not wanting to blame anyone directly for it, but only wish some changed could be
made that are, to me, more positive.

[Bonz]

Think it has to do with leaveing oasis of natural habitat for animals
takla

ok thx, sorta along same ideas i had, also see them stems left standing in rows in some areas, i assume also for habitat, seem to see birds always perched on top doing their hunting

[moosinaround]

Trees are planted at densities that will provide a certain volume in a certain amount of time. Ive been out of the loop, forestry wise, for several years now, but if you really want to get a good idea of what our planting densities at stand reestablishment look like as it goes from the seral stage to the intermediate stage of growth, look no further than the Hagen/Bowron area of the province.

[Bonz]

for some of the older people. maybe some where around with the last pine beetle issue...this isnt the first time.
did anyone see any effect to wildlife back then? or to what degree, obvious;ly diff times with more game in general.

[rocksteady]

The beetle epidemic years ago (70's, 80's and 90's) were all limited on scale compared to the latest epidemic. There were significant outbreaks but in smaller scales... Tweedsmuir, Pasayton Valley, Flathead... wiped out most of those drainages but never really ventured further..

[Arctic Lake]

Thanks to all of you so far for your insight and knowledge to this question I had !
Thanks Again
Arctic Lake

[Bonz]

thx, i worked for forest fire guys and hadnt even known till then that we had previous bouts of the beetle. as a new guy in that, was hard to be told just stand there and let it burn. its doing good. was old kill on the ground and what was burning from the current fire. bella coola, anahiem lake area,

just trying to compare any game issue from back hen to the beetle issue now

[takla1]

I traveled all over the province as a kid with my dad who worked for BC forestry,he drove a 5 ton truck and the program was called "trees for tomorrow",we grew up on 500 acres in south Surrey that was designated as a provincial Tree Farm to grow seedlings for gov reforestation.
The facility grew millions of seedlings annually for area's affected by forest fire ,in all those travels we seldom seen beetle kill in the 60's/70's .Winters in those yrs were substancially colder not only on the coast but the interior so far less beetle kill
We often talked about how the huge interior fires in those days opened up large tracks of land that was actually great for the local game numbers

takla

[Stillhunting]

I had a brushing contract for a woodlot in Barrier last Fall, and asked the owner about the nice fir vets all over his block. He said he wasn't allowed to cut them because they were too big, over 24 inches. He wasn't happy about it. They are seed trees and often wildlife trees, but they tend to blow down without the protection of a surrounding forest.


ive always wondered whats the reasons for leaving random clusters of trees in middle of cuts? natural replanting? or???

[rocksteady]

just trying to compare any game issue from back hen to the beetle issue now

Another thing you have to look at is after the beetle event, if there is a fire, when (timing of year) did it occur and what was the intensity?

Look at OK Mtn Park Fire... Started in Beetle in the Park and blew hard into Kelowna. very intense fire, significant damage to the ecosystem, so therefore takes more time for Ma Nature to heal herself. If that size of fire would have occurred as a light intensity spring prescribed burn, the impact would have been more of a refreshing burn for habitat, rather than a big old kick in the ecosystem.

That is the reason when we do prescribed burns for ecosystem restoration we do them as light to moderate intensity (depending on the objectives of course).

The current beetle epidemics impacts will heal itself, it just takes time... Give it a few more years and you will see an ingrowth of shrubs, then regen, then the regen will become dominant and shade out the brush.

You also have to look at what critters use what areas for what purpose.. A thick overgrown, from regen, area may not be used as a feeding area, but more as escape cover or hiding cover. Moose may use it, deer maybe not...

The clumps of trees left in cutblocks usually are called Wildlife Tree Patches... Somewhere, undisturbed that wildlife of all sorts can use as it is how the old area used to be prior to the disturbance (be it logging or fire)...


You have to remember that the forests of BC have been evolving over the past 10K years. This is not the first time a significant forest health issue has occurred, nor impacts from fire on those issues.. The forests always come back and the game has always been here...

[Bonz]

the fires are good in that sence for the game..the carbon from the burn adds nitrogen to the plant life an it will be more nutritional for the game. but also in mean time, they lost their cover

[Bonz]

I had a brushing contract for a woodlot in Barrier last Fall, and asked the owner about the nice fir vets all over his block. He said he wasn't allowed to cut them because they were too big, over 24 inches. He wasn't happy about it. They are seed trees and often wildlife trees, but they tend to blow down without the protection of a surrounding forest.

oh ok. never thought of a size of tree thing.

[Bonz]

Another thing you have to look at is after the beetle event, if there is a fire, when (timing of year) did it occur and what was the intensity?

Look at OK Mtn Park Fire... Started in Beetle in the Park and blew hard into Kelowna. very intense fire, significant damage to the ecosystem, so therefore takes more time for Ma Nature to heal herself. If that size of fire would have occurred as a light intensity spring prescribed burn, the impact would have been more of a refreshing burn for habitat, rather than a big old kick in the ecosystem.

That is the reason when we do prescribed burns for ecosystem restoration we do them as light to moderate intensity (depending on the objectives of course).

The current beetle epidemics impacts will heal itself, it just takes time... Give it a few more years and you will see an ingrowth of shrubs, then regen, then the regen will become dominant and shade out the brush.

You also have to look at what critters use what areas for what purpose.. A thick overgrown, from regen, area may not be used as a feeding area, but more as escape cover or hiding cover. Moose may use it, deer maybe not...

The clumps of trees left in cutblocks usually are called Wildlife Tree Patches... Somewhere, undisturbed that wildlife of all sorts can use as it is how the old area used to be prior to the disturbance (be it logging or fire)...


You have to remember that the forests of BC have been evolving over the past 10K years. This is not the first time a significant forest health issue has occurred, nor impacts from fire on those issues.. The forests always come back and the game has always been here...

that fire i reffered to was massive. took both camp to set up to accomodate the guys an lasted for months, believe it was prime lghting season beginning to mid aug?
my season was the one after the big kelowna issue

and ya i know its a long healing thing. had no clue about most of this when i started that work, wasnt a hunter then either to pay attention to game effects, back then all i knew is they didnt like it and saw tons running away for cover.


im not looking at any blames or for anything specific. just knowledge on what goes on

[Citori54]

the fires are good in that sence for the game..the carbon from the burn adds nitrogen to the plant life an it will be more nutritional for the game. but also in mean time, they lost their cover
Carbon does not add nitrogen to plant life.Nitrogen is released into the soil and atmosphere as nitrates and ammonia following a fire and is then available to plants. It is not produced from carbon.The length of time the elevated nitrogen persists is dependent on the intensity of the fire.

[Stillhunting]

Alder adds nitrogen to the soil, but with planting and brushing, it doesn't last as long as it otherwise would.