Well below carrying capacity...consider

[horshur]

I'll take pics if you doubt it...there is a cut block..actually there are a few where forest company is having a heck of a time getting trees to grow. They need to get block to free growing stage in order to harvest adjacent wood. Why won't trees grow?. Mule deer are hard on seedlings.
What I'm getting at is ungulates have a roll in forest cover..they make range. This particular block when more mature will look like most of the fir timber that mulies use all winter....lower density of ungulates will result in tighter forest cover which will be less productive for mule deer long term. It is not just fire that shapes habitat!!. Also begs question regarding rules on stocking standards...

[bearvalley]

Reforestation stocking rates should have been addressed long ago.
The free to grow rating is given on the planted trees, the natural regen that is usually a few years behind falls off the radar.
End result when free to grow is achieved ....the forest company is released from further obligations on the block.
The taxpayer is shouldered with the future management of the weed tree stand.
Wildlife suffers due to lack of forage productivity.

[Stillhunting]

I was very surprised at the number of animals, both moose and deer, that I spooked while surveying thick, 10-15 year old pine stands around Kelowna and Kamloops last Summer and Fall. There was also much more browse than you would expect. Pretty much impossible to hunt them in there though. I do think the stocking standards should be relaxed somewhat to allow for more variability in densities, but most of all it would be nice to see more emphasis on wildlife values in forestry, instead of it being all about profits. Most logging for the last 15 years has been on the plateaus around here, but that is changing now so things could get ugly soon as they move into the winter range which is much more important when it comes to carrying capacity.

[horshur]

I was very surprised at the number of animals, both moose and deer, that I spooked while surveying thick, 10-15 year old pine stands around Kelowna and Kamloops last Summer and Fall. There was also much more browse than you would expect. Pretty much impossible to hunt them in there though. I do think the stocking standards should be relaxed somewhat to allow for more variability in densities, but most of all it would be nice to see more emphasis on wildlife values in forestry, instead of it being all about profits. Most logging for the last 15 years has been on the plateaus around here, but that is changing now so things could get ugly soon as they move into the winter range which is much more important when it comes to carrying capacity.

I don't share your worries as much regarding winter range logging..been watching it last bit and blocks actually are more productive for deer then the standing timber it is easy to see right from year two or three however like my original post if they grow up fast and thick will not be productive for as long as they could. The particular block I refer too they have replanted it at least once ...much of the winter range timber is old cutblock or was a burn at one time. Renewal is good.

[Bugle M In]

I was very surprised at the number of animals, both moose and deer, that I spooked while surveying thick, 10-15 year old pine stands around Kelowna and Kamloops last Summer and Fall. There was also much more browse than you would expect. Pretty much impossible to hunt them in there though. I do think the stocking standards should be relaxed somewhat to allow for more variability in densities, but most of all it would be nice to see more emphasis on wildlife values in forestry, instead of it being all about profits. Most logging for the last 15 years has been on the plateaus around here, but that is changing now so things could get ugly soon as they move into the winter range which is much more important when it comes to carrying capacity.

Going with you on this one!

[Stillhunting]

Planting is never the reason it comes in super thick anyway, that's the natural regen. Perhaps we'll see more juvenile spacing work in the future, to thin some of the really bad stands out and improve wildlife habitat.

[horshur]

Planting is never the reason it comes in super thick anyway, that's the natural regen. Perhaps we'll see more juvenile spacing work in the future, to thin some of the really bad stands out and improve wildlife habitat.
who is responsible for that?

[Boner]

who is responsible for that?

Not a concern for the foresters. It's all about those crop trees overcoming the deciduous naturals that would compete. Aspen, cottonwood, birch etc. While brushing and spacing, even the naturally regenerated subalpine fir gets no respect if it's within x distance of a shitty pine crop tree.

[horshur]

I already know the answer..who is responsible for thinning? It is not the forest company.

[GoatGuy]

I already know the answer..who is responsible for thinning? It is not the forest company.

Thinning done in the 90s was a made work project. Fibre yield similar between thinned and unthined stands.

Obligations to get replanted stands to free to grow up to licensee. No one wants to have to go back in a second time to replant so they overdo it the first time.

Biodiversity is not part of the current equation.

[Stillhunting]

who is responsible for that?

Planted trees average 2.9m intertree distance, but GoatGuy's right, they overdo it the first time so they don't have to go back and spend more money. They usually only need a tree every 3.4m to achieve freegrowing, even 3.8m in the IDF. However, there are lots of different issues affecting trees that can prevent them from achieving freegrowing; diseases, injuries, weather, poor planting, brush competition... It's wise to plant more than you need.

[Sitkaspruce]

Bring back FRBC and super stumpage!!!:wink:

Over all, there is a big disconnect between pre and post harvest and reaching free to grow. Biodiversity is just a big name thrown around by the government and forests companies to the masses to make it looks like they care. At the end of the day, it is all about getting the quickest turn around on stand rotation (60-80 years) for stumpage returns to general revenue. There is no place in forestry biodiversity for fish and wildlife.

Cheers

SS

[Bugle M In]

I sure am glad to see others see it the same way...
It's not like before, and they, the forestry Co. can move fast now.
In some ways, it's a almost as if the pine beetle ended up in the end to be a benefit??
(I know, some areas were hit hard by them)
But, I talked to a forestry person in the area I hunt, and asked why the need to now log so low now,
into the winter range area?
(Yes, the Kamloops Plateaus Region has been logged like crazy, so. not much for them to hit up there any longer).
Anyways, she said...look around, look up there to the right and left mountains....
"See, they are dead".
Yup, they are, but that happened about 10 to 15 years ago, and yes, a lot of pine was killed off.
And some heavy windstorms have knocked many of the big ones to the ground.
(Lots of Fire Wood be cut around there now......rarely heard the general public up their with a chain saw before)
But, since then, No More Trees Have Died Off.
Yet, now they are sayin it is the Fir or Spruce (can't remember which?) that is the beetles next target.
I haven't seen that happening at all, not there, yet, those trees are slated to be cut real soon.
And yes, they don't thin out things, and transplanting is way overkill...nothing natural about it now.

[bearvalley]

Thinning done in the 90s was a made work project. Fibre yield similar between thinned and unthined stands.

Obligations to get replanted stands to free to grow up to licensee. No one wants to have to go back in a second time to replant so they overdo it the first time.

Biodiversity is not part of the current equation.

Growing sole use, weed tree forests has become the norm.

[horshur]

once free growing the block is off the books and no longer the mills responsibility. So any stand tending after free growing would be the BCFS initiative right?

[Timbow]

once free growing the block is off the books and no longer the mills responsibility. So any stand tending after free growing would be the BCFS initiative right?

Depends if it's volume based or area based. Area based such as TFL allows a sole company to invest where as the volume based TSA will likely be the BCFS after free to grow

[ufishifish2]

But, I talked to a forestry person in the area I hunt, and asked why the need to now log so low now,
into the winter range area?
Yet, now they are sayin it is the Fir or Spruce (can't remember which?) that is the beetles next target.
I haven't seen that happening at all, not there, yet, those trees are slated to be cut real soon.
And yes, they don't thin out things, and transplanting is way overkill...nothing natural about it now.

This thread has become very broad now. Bugle M In asked "why log so low now?" The simple answer is that in much of the interior of this province there is very little of the mid elevation wood left to cut. Not only is logging going lower but it is also going higher than ever. The mid elevation pine plateaus are logged off and in order to satiate the appetite of the beast (mill), the wood needs to come from the lower elevation fir as well as the higher elevation balsam and spruce. This act of harvesting low elevation Douglas fir used to occur quite readily 20+ years ago before everybody got wrapped up in harvesting all the mid elevation beetle infested pine. The public has essentially been spoiled and forgotten that logging used to occur "in their back yard." Now that the pine beetles are for the most part gone, and the easy wood has been logged, harvesting is occurring in areas that are more constrained, such as the highly studied and extremely regulated low elevation winter range.
Licensees have a target amount of fibre to cut and it is set by our government. It creates a crapload of tax revenue for the crown.
As for the mention above about Spruce and Fir beetles, this is true to an extent. I have seen many valleys in recent years (especially in the Kamloops area) that have either Spruce or Fir beetles. These beetles look nearly identical to the pine beetles but there is one important difference. The Pine beetles like to target big healthy trees therefore they spread like wildfire through our giant pine plateaus. The Fir and Spruce beetles prefer stressed and dying trees therefore they are somewhat more limited for their ideal host and they don't seem to be spreading with quite as much of an appetite as the pine beetles did. Hopefully the forest industry can deal with it now before the issue grows.
On the topic of thinning, I am glad it isn't done anywhere near as much as it was in the past. What a terrible practice IMO. Time and time again we have proven that nature does it best, not man. We generally just screw it up! What happens after a naturally occurring forest fire?? Generally the ground turns green with a dense carpet of conifers, especially on the pine flats. Over time these areas will space out naturally as the non-dominant trees die out. It's like a time release fertilization project set up by good ole Mother Nature. What happens if you thin? Well, that depends on if you mean commercial thinning of larger trees, or thinning the young stuff. Thinning the big trees generally in the interior is cost prohibitive. As with most things in the world, money is a big driver in the forest industry too. As for the young trees, I'm not a fan of thinning them because it causes too much light in the understorey and the trees tend to grow unnaturally large limbs. What good does that accomplish? I'm all for leaving nature to do the work for us where we can, but at the same time creating jobs and tax revenue for the province.
Forestry itself is a practice that is far from perfect, but as people learn, it is getting better all the time.

[GoatGuy]

This thread has become very broad now. Bugle M In asked "why log so low now?" The simple answer is that in much of the interior of this province there is very little of the mid elevation wood left to cut. Not only is logging going lower but it is also going higher than ever. The mid elevation pine plateaus are logged off and in order to satiate the appetite of the beast (mill), the wood needs to come from the lower elevation fir as well as the higher elevation balsam and spruce. This act of harvesting low elevation Douglas fir used to occur quite readily 20+ years ago before everybody got wrapped up in harvesting all the mid elevation beetle infested pine. The public has essentially been spoiled and forgotten that logging used to occur "in their back yard." Now that the pine beetles are for the most part gone, and the easy wood has been logged, harvesting is occurring in areas that are more constrained, such as the highly studied and extremely regulated low elevation winter range.
Licensees have a target amount of fibre to cut and it is set by our government. It creates a crapload of tax revenue for the crown.
As for the mention above about Spruce and Fir beetles, this is true to an extent. I have seen many valleys in recent years (especially in the Kamloops area) that have either Spruce or Fir beetles. These beetles look nearly identical to the pine beetles but there is one important difference. The Pine beetles like to target big healthy trees therefore they spread like wildfire through our giant pine plateaus. The Fir and Spruce beetles prefer stressed and dying trees therefore they are somewhat more limited for their ideal host and they don't seem to be spreading with quite as much of an appetite as the pine beetles did. Hopefully the forest industry can deal with it now before the issue grows.
On the topic of thinning, I am glad it isn't done anywhere near as much as it was in the past. What a terrible practice IMO. Time and time again we have proven that nature does it best, not man. We generally just screw it up! What happens after a naturally occurring forest fire?? Generally the ground turns green with a dense carpet of conifers, especially on the pine flats. Over time these areas will space out naturally as the non-dominant trees die out. It's like a time release fertilization project set up by good ole Mother Nature. What happens if you thin? Well, that depends on if you mean commercial thinning of larger trees, or thinning the young stuff. Thinning the big trees generally in the interior is cost prohibitive. As with most things in the world, money is a big driver in the forest industry too. As for the young trees, I'm not a fan of thinning them because it causes too much light in the understorey and the trees tend to grow unnaturally large limbs. What good does that accomplish? I'm all for leaving nature to do the work for us where we can, but at the same time creating jobs and tax revenue for the province.
Forestry itself is a practice that is far from perfect, but as people learn, it is getting better all the time.

200,000 HA of spruce bark beetle should help prop the numbers up lol.

Think there's currently about 60 million metres in NC BC.

The next pine beetle epidemic.