P&Y For Crossbow

[hunter1947]

I did not want to hijack a thread on the mainland section so I started a thread on allowable entry on P&Y using a crossbow.

10 years ago I entered a island deer buck that entered the P&Y it scored just under the 100 score has the P&Y changed
that if a animal is shot with a crossbow that not allowable for the P&Y book ???..

[Cyrus]

arrows an arrow...should be the same.

[hunter1947]

I searched the enternett and found this ...http://www.excaliburcrossbow.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9086&start=0....https://pope-young.org/bowhunting/position_statement.asp

..................http://www.crossbownation.com/community/threads/do-crossbow-kills-qualify-for-pope-and-young.28573/

[Onesock]

Arrow is an arrow....bolt is a bolt. If they were the same they wouldnt have different names.

[Blockcaver]

P&Y has not changed as they never have allowed animals shot with a crossbow (or airbow, rifle, muzzleloader or pickups) to be entered. Attached is their crossbow policy from their website:

Crossbow Policy Statement

The Pope and Young Club was founded to promote bowhunting and to record for posterity the outstanding examples of North American big game animals taken solely with the hunting bow.

For the purpose of the Pope and Young Club, a bow shall be defined as a longbow, recurve bow or compound bow that is hand-held and hand-drawn, and that has no mechanical device to enable the hunter to lock the bow at full or partial draw. Other than the energy stored by the drawn bow, no device to propel the arrow will be permitted.

Consequently, the Pope and Young Club does not consider the crossbow to be a hunting bow and will not accept any trophies collected by crossbow hunters. Further, the Pope and Young Club considers the use of crossbows during bowhunting seasons to be a serious threat to the future of bowhunting.

The Pope and Young Club therefore recommends the crossbow should not be considered for use in any bowhunting only season. Also, the Club strongly recommends that crossbow hunting be abolished from all existing bowhunting only seasons. We encourage all states and provinces which desire to allow use of crossbows for hunting big game, to require mandatory crossbow specific education, licensing, seasons and reporting requirements.

[Bonz]

Arrow is an arrow....bolt is a bolt. If they were the same they wouldnt have different names.

name means nothing. they are the same thing. same design same tech and same flights. one is short, other long. same deal. sizes or diameter dont change what they are. its archery ego that has diff names is all lol
the item flinging them is diff, but the arrows are basicly the same.

[Wild one]

P&Y has restrictions on let off, lighted sights, and even nocks along with other technology restrictions that effect vertical bows even.

It should be no surprise crossbows are not included. P&Y is a club that was created by bow hunters with their view on what bow hunting should be not crossbow hunters. Like stated above they restrict tools used by some vertical bows even. P&Y is no more than a clubs view on what bow hunting should be

Yes crossbows are allowed in archery seasons in some places. The reality is crossbows do share simularities to vertical bows but in many ways they are very different. This does not make them inferior or bellow vertical bows but instead they are just a different short range weapon.

This is no disrespect to crossbows but instead of trying to push to be viewed just like those who use a vertical bow just enjoy crossbow hunting for what it is. I have owned and hunted with crossbow, compound, and recurve I have no issue with any of them. I fully understand these weapons and respect them for what they are

Just go out and enjoy your hunt if it is a crossbow or vertical bow.

[warnniklz]

Why don't crossbow hunters start their own club?

I don't think animals taken with a crossbow should be allowed in the P&Y. But at the same time I think crossbow hunters have every right to hunt during archery season. Kind of a tuna nut situation

[Brez]

Why don't crossbow hunters start their own club?

I don't think animals taken with a crossbow should be allowed in the P&Y. But at the same time I think crossbow hunters have every right to hunt during archery season. Kind of a tuna nut situation
It's Christmas so I'll get the ball rolling...
IMO, I believe the great majority of hunters using crossbows (other than those who have physical limitations) do so to take advantage of the archery seasons, whereas hunters using bows (traditional and compound) do so for the added challenge. At least that is my reason.

[Dannybuoy]

I did not want to hijack a thread on the mainland section so I started a thread on allowable entry on P&Y using a crossbow.

10 years ago I entered a island deer buck that entered the P&Y it scored just under the 100 score has the P&Y changed
that if a animal is shot with a crossbow that not allowable for the P&Y book ???..
Are you going to ask them to revise ( remove) your entry as it does not qualify ? ;-)

[Linksman313]

P&Y has not changed as they never have allowed animals shot with a crossbow (or airbow, rifle, muzzleloader or pickups) to be entered. Attached is their crossbow policy from their website:

Crossbow Policy Statement

The Pope and Young Club was founded to promote bowhunting and to record for posterity the outstanding examples of North American big game animals taken solely with the hunting bow.

For the purpose of the Pope and Young Club, a bow shall be defined as a longbow, recurve bow or compound bow that is hand-held and hand-drawn, and that has no mechanical device to enable the hunter to lock the bow at full or partial draw. Other than the energy stored by the drawn bow, no device to propel the arrow will be permitted.

Consequently, the Pope and Young Club does not consider the crossbow to be a hunting bow and will not accept any trophies collected by crossbow hunters. Further, the Pope and Young Club considers the use of crossbows during bowhunting seasons to be a serious threat to the future of bowhunting.

The Pope and Young Club therefore recommends the crossbow should not be considered for use in any bowhunting only season. Also, the Club strongly recommends that crossbow hunting be abolished from all existing bowhunting only seasons. We encourage all states and provinces which desire to allow use of crossbows for hunting big game, to require mandatory crossbow specific education, licensing, seasons and reporting requirements.

What about a spear??
J.J.

[Wild one]

What about a spear??
J.J.

Still does not go P&Y

[knighthunter]

I am also on an Ontario site and that province has a crossbow record book. Anybody want to check it out, here is the link. www.frow.ca/deer/typical/crossbow

[dblung]

I am also on an Ontario site and that province has a crossbow record book. Anybody want to check it out, here is the link. www.frow.ca/deer/typical/crossbow (http://www.frow.ca/deer/typical/crossbow)That's a hell of a buck taken with the arrow gun

[Caribou_lou]

Is there diffetent scoring for Boone and Crocket with Muzzleloaders/Bolt action rifles? Not Hijacking. Just figure it's a similar comparison.

[Wild one]

Is there diffetent scoring for Boone and Crocket with Muzzleloaders/Bolt action rifles? Not Hijacking. Just figure it's a similar comparison.

No difference even if taken with a bow But B&C is hunting record nothing weapon related

[fuzzybiscuit]

It's Christmas so I'll get the ball rolling...
IMO, I believe the great majority of hunters using crossbows (other than those who have physical limitations) do so to take advantage of the archery seasons, whereas hunters using bows (traditional and compound) do so for the added challenge. At least that is my reason.


Almost every bow hunter I know puts their bow away when rifle season starts up so I'm not sure that is the case...

[Spy]

Almost every bow hunter I know puts their bow away when rifle season starts up so I'm not sure that is the case...
I sold all my rifles, bow only for me. ;-)

[greybark]

Almost every bow hunter I know puts their bow away when rifle season starts up so I'm not sure that is the case...

Sorry Fb , I agree with Brez on this one . Most bowhunters I know are dedicated to bows only and attend many 3-D events thruout the year.
Terminology for Crossbow is just that and not Arrowgun or crossgun . The lack of respect contributs nothing to the discussion .

Sorry for the hi-jack H47.

[Gateholio]

P&Y is an archaic institution with outdated regulations. It's nonsense that they will allow the most high tech 2016 compound bows yet disallow a simple crossbow from 1985.

It's all elitist bullshit, and B&C is not immune to this either.

P

[Wild one]

Almost every bow hunter I know puts their bow away when rifle season starts up so I'm not sure that is the case...

Most of my hunting is with a bow even in GOS yes I will pick up my muzzleloader or rifle at times. Personally know a fair number of hunters who use a bow or crossbow in GOS. I know there is a good number that put down the crossbow/bow in GOS as well

all depends on the circle of hunters you know

[fuzzybiscuit]

Most of my hunting is with a bow even in GOS yes I will pick up my muzzleloader or rifle at times. Personally know a fair number of hunters who use a bow or crossbow in GOS. I know there is a good number that put down the crossbow/bow in GOS as well

all depends on the circle of hunters you know


I would agree with that last line...

The point I was trying to make is that to make a general statement like...

"IMO, I believe the great majority of hunters using crossbows (other than those who have physical limitations) do so to take advantage of the archery seasons, whereas hunters using bows (traditional and compound) do so for the added challenge."

...is simply not true. It depends very much on the group you run with but in the end there is probably many more people who hunt with a bow because it extends their season than those who hunt with a bow because of the challenge. Almost every bow hunter I know does so to a certain extent because it extends their season and once rifle season starts the only time their bow comes out is to hunt in a bow only zone. I'm in no way saying that there is anything wrong with that either...

[quadrakid]

i am all for using whatever weapon you choose. That being said a crossbow is a lot different than archery gear,its point and shoot as oppposed to draw and shoot.As for the trophy books,burn them all,who needs to see there name in a book for self approval? Hunting should not be about competing with others,its about you and the critters.

[Bonz]

seems maybe some of the disagreeing on archery gear is because of book rules, seems they might be the ones that started it with their rules for entries maybe.
personaly i could care less about entries. i have a couple bear here for bc book and wont enter bother to enter them.

i stared off in archery with compound, then added rifle to my choice, and id have no issue using a crossbow. wont use trad archery as im not good enough for that. never could get it, lol, hurt the arm to much..lol

[greybark]

Just to keep things going , interesting that some who are against Record Books quickly point out their qualifying trophys and refusel to enter them. Those who have entered such books are quiet.
Also interesting , I know of several so called self qualifiers that when actually measured failed . Due to geo limitations and genetics it is tough to qualify . Now having said that I don't like the inference of the word trophy . The effort and drama in taking a spike can be more satisfactory than a mature one .
Cheers

[rocksteady]

I would agree with that last line...

The point I was trying to make is that to make a general statement like...

"IMO, I believe the great majority of hunters using crossbows (other than those who have physical limitations) do so to take advantage of the archery seasons, whereas hunters using bows (traditional and compound) do so for the added challenge."

...is simply not true. It depends very much on the group you run with but in the end there is probably many more people who hunt with a bow because it extends their season than those who hunt with a bow because of the challenge. Almost every bow hunter I know does so to a certain extent because it extends their season and once rifle season starts the only time their bow comes out is to hunt in a bow only zone. I'm in no way saying that there is anything wrong with that either...

AGREED.. Of the 25 hunters I know, only 1 or 2 are hardcore bow only guys..

[warnniklz]

...
I have "kills" that would go into both P&Y (longbow deer) and B&C (3 black bear and 2 deer) and I have never entered them, as I think both organizations have lost their sight.

There'salotofcrittersi

There's a lot of critters not entered into record books, sure you know that. It's not very hard to get a 20" black bear in BC. I do however like the B&C as a bit of a measuring stick.

[uraarchr]

Why get upset about a club someone has with its own rules?Start your own!No different than joining a any other club they have their own rules.take a look around

[knighthunter]

name means nothing. they are the same thing. same design same tech and same flights. one is short, other long. same deal. sizes or diameter dont change what they are. its archery ego that has diff names is all lol
the item flinging them is diff, but the arrows are basicly the same.

Seems to me that most crossbows I see advertised for sale on different sites have scopes on them, but can't ever remember seeing a regular bow sporting a scope. I would think that hunting with archery equipment would take a lot more skill to hit what their aiming at than someone shooting a crossbow with a mounted scope.
I don't hunt with a crossbow but to each their own. I agree that crossbow kills should never be allowed in the P&Y records. In some provinces crossbows are only allowed in the rifle seasons and rightly so.

[Bonz]

Seems to me that most crossbows I see advertised for sale on different sites have scopes on them, but can't ever remember seeing a regular bow sporting a scope. I would think that hunting with archery equipment would take a lot more skill to hit what their aiming at than someone shooting a crossbow with a mounted scope.
I don't hunt with a crossbow but to each their own. I agree that crossbow kills should never be allowed in the P&Y records. In some provinces crossbows are only allowed in the rifle seasons and rightly so.

the comment was about the arrow. not the bow though. the arrows are all basicly same, other than length, weight and diameter.
the tool that throws them is diff is all. like a shot gun vs a rile vs a hang gun. all diff. but same

[Gateholio]

There'salotofcrittersi

There's a lot of critters not entered into record books, sure you know that. It's not very hard to get a 20" black bear in BC. I do however like the B&C as a bit of a measuring stick.

Big black bears are abundant in BC so it's probably the easiest to make book with. Although I was actually mistaken as only 2 bears would make B&C. The other makes the BC book which only requires 19" IIRC. It's been some time since I looked at the rules for records :)

IIRC B&C was originally as much about being a measuring stick for wildlife health as anything. Now it seems that the record books are for measuring hunters :)

P&Y disqualifies guys that use illuminated nocks too. Another archaic silly rule.

[Bonz]

do they have calibre resrictions for firearm records? would think they should to be even to the judging bows

[Brez]

Almost every bow hunter I know puts their bow away when rifle season starts up so I'm not sure that is the case...
I tend to agree with you but there are a few of us that are more committed to bow-hunting. I do hunt with a rifle as well, but mainly in Alberta. For years, I did not pick up a rifle as there was so much game around, I had no problem getting the meat I needed (wanted) with a bow. Now, not so much, but still possible. The reason my partner and I restarted using rifles, was to get a big whitey in Alberta.

[Bonz]

used to all be muzzle loaders for rifles to wasnt it? seem to be ok to add modern firearms though

[Brez]

P&Y is an archaic institution with outdated regulations. It's nonsense that they will allow the most high tech 2016 compound bows yet disallow a simple crossbow from 1985.
It's all elitist bullshit, and B&C is not immune to this either.
I have "kills" that would go into both P&Y (longbow deer) and B&C (3 black bear and 2 deer) and I have never entered them, as I think both organizations have lost their sight.

P&Y is not immune to hunter pressure and that is why most changes regarding technology gets done.My opinion is that they should have tougher rules. Fingers and lower let-off, for me. Again, I believe bow-hunting is for the added challenge. I don't think that is elitist, just staying true to the initial intent.

[Bonz]

pretty obvious how to fix it all. new catagories with new tech. books need to keep up, not hold tech back

[Brez]

Big black bears are abundant in BC so it's probably the easiest to make book with. Although I was actually mistaken as only 2 bears would make B&C. The other makes the BC book which only requires 19" IIRC. It's been some time since I looked at the rules for records :)

IIRC B&C was originally as much about being a measuring stick for wildlife health as anything. Now it seems that the record books are for measuring hunters :)

P&Y disqualifies guys that use illuminated nocks too. Another archaic silly rule.


Sorry, but you are wrong on the nocks

[Gateholio]

Why get upset about a club someone has with its own rules?Start your own!No different than joining a any other club they have their own rules.take a look around

Thats very true. And I think plenty of hunters opt out of the record books for various reasons.

[Brez]

do they have calibre resrictions for firearm records? would think they should to be even to the judging bows
Apples to oranges. B&C was formed to keep records of and honor the animal. P&Y is more to recognize the hunter.

[Gateholio]

Sorry, but you are wrong on the nocks

Did they change that? I recsll a big uproar over a bow hunter that had illuminated nocks not allowed to enter a big ram.

[Bonz]

Apples to oranges. B&C was formed to keep records of and honor the animal. P&Y is more to recognize the hunter.

kinda the point actualy. its gotten to be more about ego than the animal,

[Gateholio]

Apples to oranges. B&C was formed to keep records of and honor the animal. P&Y is more to recognize the hunter.

Thats an interesting distinction. Good point.

[Brez]

I would agree with that last line...

The point I was trying to make is that to make a general statement like...

"IMO, I believe the great majority of hunters using crossbows (other than those who have physical limitations) do so to take advantage of the archery seasons, whereas hunters using bows (traditional and compound) do so for the added challenge."

...is simply not true. It depends very much on the group you run with but in the end there is probably many more people who hunt with a bow because it extends their season than those who hunt with a bow because of the challenge. Almost every bow hunter I know does so to a certain extent because it extends their season and once rifle season starts the only time their bow comes out is to hunt in a bow only zone. I'm in no way saying that there is anything wrong with that either...

I did say "IMO"....and that comes from the people I know in the hunting community.
The archery seasons and zones are there because of the few dedicated bow-hunters who lobbied hard for them in the 80's and 90's. No one foresaw the changes that have taken place here in B.C. because of additional lobbying by people with other interests.

[Brez]

i am all for using whatever weapon you choose. That being said a crossbow is a lot different than archery gear,its point and shoot as oppposed to draw and shoot.As for the trophy books,burn them all,who needs to see there name in a book for self approval? Hunting should not be about competing with others,its about you and the critters.

THIS, I do agree with. Thanks for saying it.

[Spy]

So let me get this right, I'm sure I will be corrected. ;-) If you hunt exclusively with a bow you are an elitist ? It is the company you keep, that makes you an elitist? So what are you if you hunt with a bow "alone" 90% of the season? What are you if you are the only one hunting with a bow while your friends use rifles? Im confused as to what makes you elite?
What are you if you have harvested two BTs with a bow that will make the books, but you have not bothered to have them measured, because you don't give a ****? Who decides who is an elite and who is not, please explain the "label" ? How does the company you keep get you labeled as an elite?

[Brez]

Did they change that? I recsll a big uproar over a bow hunter that had illuminated nocks not allowed to enter a big ram.
Our local scorer told me that they changed it as it does not advantage the hunter in the shooting of the animal but in the retrieval of the animal. This is a good thing. I believe the initial rule was to ban all electronics to try to limit the technologies. Lighted nocks use batteries. This is why they have gone to fiber-optics on sights and not batteries.

[Bonz]

they have fiber optic sights. but most use a light or have the hole to mount it to light the plastic up..mine do anyways

[Gateholio]

Our local scorer told me that they changed it as it does not advantage the hunter in the shooting of the animal but in the retrieval of the animal. This is a good thing. I believe the initial rule was to ban all electronics to try to limit the technologies. Lighted nocks use batteries. This is why they have gone to fiber-optics on sights and not batteries.

So would using a rangefinder exclude someone as its electronics? Or is it just stuff on the bow/arrow ?

[Brez]

kinda the point actualy. its gotten to be more about ego than the animal,
It's the world we live in. Pics are posted from cell phones before the animal's heart has stopped beating.

[Brez]

So would using a rangefinder exclude someone as its electronics? Or is it just stuff on the bow/arrow ?
Stuff attached to the bow. I shot way more before rangefinders and honestly, rarely use mine as it takes too much time. Actually got mine to range prairie mulies.

[greybark]

So let me get this right, I'm sure I will be corrected. ;-) If you hunt exclusively with a bow you are an elitist ? It is the company you keep, that makes you an elitist? So what are you if you hunt with a bow "alone" 90% of the season? What are you if you are the only one hunting with a bow while your friends use rifles? Im confused as to what makes you elite?
What are you if you have harvested two BTs with a bow that will make the books, but you have not bothered to have them measured, because you don't give a ****? Who decides who is an elite and who is not, please explain the "label" ? How does the company you keep get you labeled as an elite?

Good post Spy , I sure as hell do not know . Any judgement of someone being an elitest was dispelled with a discussion over an appropreiate beverage .

[J_T]

I have no issue with P&Y rules. "They" created the organization, they determine the purpose and the rules. You want to play with them, you do so by their rules. Nothing elitist about it. If you really truly know and understand your history of Saxton, Art and Ishi. Two white men who be-friended an aboriginal first nation person and in return, he shared his hunting style. What a novelty.

I'm so tired of the low brow $hit that goes on on this site. Passing judgement seems more frequent than passing wind.

I've taken animals that qualify, but don't submit. It's important to me that I honour those animals in the field. Not in a book. We took some nice animals this year, but you won't see the pictures on the internet as most of my hunting partners aren't interested in self gratification.

[uraarchr]

Muzzleloader also have a record book? Longhunters society?or Longhunters Big Game record book?
Some crossbow hunters should start a record book for crossbows......then they will be happy too.

[Boner]

Why get upset about a club someone has with its own rules?Start your own!No different than joining a any other club they have their own rules.take a look around


Thats very true. And I think plenty of hunters opt out of the record books for various reasons.



I have no issue with P&Y rules. "They" created the organization, they determine the purpose and the rules. You want to play with them, you do so by their rules.


This sums it up for me. No one wants to stick their neck out and start something new. People just want to fight over the rules of what exists. I guess because everyone respects the credibility of P&Y. I think it's pointless now because of how widespread social media is. If a hunter wants to share pics (or claim bragging rights) of an impressive animal, it's out there for the world to see in a matter of minutes.

[Gateholio]

Crossbow Policy Statement

The Pope and Young Club was founded to promote bowhunting and to record for posterity the outstanding examples of North American big game animals taken solely with the hunting bow.

For the purpose of the Pope and Young Club, a bow shall be defined as a longbow, recurve bow or compound bow that is hand-held and hand-drawn, and that has no mechanical device to enable the hunter to lock the bow at full or partial draw. Other than the energy stored by the drawn bow, no device to propel the arrow will be permitted.

Consequently, the Pope and Young Club does not consider the crossbow to be a hunting bow and will not accept any trophies collected by crossbow hunters. Further, the Pope and Young Club considers the use of crossbows during bowhunting seasons to be a serious threat to the future of bowhunting.

The Pope and Young Club therefore recommends the crossbow should not be considered for use in any bowhunting only season. Also, the Club strongly recommends that crossbow hunting be abolished from all existing bowhunting only seasons. We encourage all states and provinces which desire to allow use of crossbows for hunting big game, to require mandatory crossbow specific education, licensing, seasons and reporting requirements.


This is the elitist part.

Its one thing to not allow crossbows in your club. It's a whole other thing to lobby against their use in bow seasons.

[warnniklz]

Did they change that? I recsll a big uproar over a bow hunter that had illuminated nocks not allowed to enter a big ram.

https://www.pope-young.org/information/news_detail.asp?news=14

[J_T]

Crossbow Policy Statement


Its one thing to not allow crossbows in your club. It's a whole other thing to lobby against their use in bow seasons. I think it's important to realize the context though. In small states where hunter numbers are very high, back in the day, if you increased the range at which an animal can be taken, it has the potential to become a conservation issue. Both from the effective range question and when you combine when a season occurs with the potential number of users (increasing with xbows) conservation can and is a real issue. Yes, of course I realize in today's world many would suggest that compounds and crossbows are not that different in effective range, but based on my experience there are plenty of differences in terms of advantage wildlife. What is important is that jurisdictions evaluate the impacts and make appropriate decisions. If we're talking BC, I think there are very few who don't acccept xbows as archery tackle.

[greybark]

I agree with J-T, It`s been a lot years since I`ve heard any slagging of crossbows Heck last year with an Excaliber (Tony`s) I got an 11 on target 14 at a LML 3-d . LOL.
However photos and Book entries are not necessary "self gratification" but can represent pride of accomplishment of a personnel goal or presenting a point .

[Spy]

So let me get this right, I'm sure I will be corrected. ;-) If you hunt exclusively with a bow you are an elitist ? It is the company you keep, that makes you an elitist? So what are you if you hunt with a bow "alone" 90% of the season? What are you if you are the only one hunting with a bow while your friends use rifles? Im confused as to what makes you elite?
What are you if you have harvested two BTs with a bow that will make the books, but you have not bothered to have them measured, because you don't give a ****? Who decides who is an elite and who is not, please explain the "label" ? How does the company you keep get you labeled as an elite?
Crickets, chirp chirp , lol, Just edited posts lol, still no answers too my questions in the above^^^^^^^^ ??????

[rocksteady]

If we're talking BC, I think there are very few who don't acccept xbows as archery tackle.

If you look back at all of the old crossbow threads I think you will see differently..:rolleyes:

[greybark]

Time to announce I`m getting a new Chek-mate Stamp River Longbow ! 41 lb at 28in and 64in in length . Tamu Ash in the limb veneers and black phenolic riser . Being shipped on Wed .
Cheers All and Merry Christmas !!!!!

[Gateholio]

Time to announce I`m getting a new Chek-mate Stamp River Longbow ! 41 lb at 28in and 64in in length . Tamu Ash in the limb veneers and black phenolic riser . Being shipped on Wed .
Cheers All and Merry Christmas !!!!!

Do you have any pics? :)

[Spy]

Time to announce I`m getting a new Chek-mate Stamp River Longbow ! 41 lb at 28in and 64in in length . Tamu Ash in the limb veneers and black phenolic riser . Being shipped on Wed .
Cheers All and Merry Christmas !!!!!
You are such an Elitist ;-)

[J_T]

If you look back at all of the old crossbow threads I think you will see differently..:rolleyes: I'd suggest those old threads are proof that good conversation can shift peoples perspective, and that less people are opposed. It's very important that you don't lump all those old threads into one conclusion. There is a difference between target archery and bowhunting. Many of them reflected opinions on target.

[Gateholio]

However photos and Book entries are not necessary "self gratification" but can represent pride of accomplishment of a personnel goal or presenting a point .

I agree, it's a personal choice and up to the individual. I may have issue with record book clubs, but none at all with hunters that want to enter their animals in the books. I like looking at the pictures, too. :)

[J_T]

Time to announce I`m getting a new Chek-mate Stamp River Longbow ! 41 lb at 28in and 64in in length . Tamu Ash in the limb veneers and black phenolic riser . Being shipped on Wed .
Cheers All and Merry Christmas !!!!! Pussy. 41lbs!!

[greybark]

Gosh Darn , only one lb on the legal side . Lose that and have to go crossbow . LOL
Cheers

[J_T]

^^ Now there you go. Sounds like a nice bow Ken. I traded for a short Beaver Creek longbow last year at Rock Cr. I've hunted with it all fall. I really like it.

[greybark]

Do you have any pics? :)

Not yet Gate but will post pics as this is bowyer Marc Moriez latest bow and like a classic rifle looks and performs well .
Cheers

[greybark]

^^ Now there you go. Sounds like a nice bow Ken. I traded for a short Beaver Creek longbow last year at Rock Cr. I've hunted with it all fall. I really like it.

By far Marc`s best selling bow and for good reasons.
Cheers

[Bowzone_Mikey]

Thats an interesting distinction. Good point.


Boone and Crocket is still an elitest group and recognizes the hunter more than the animal

SCI in my opinion is the closest in my opinion that honours the animal ... as they score what they grow, ie no deductions for being out of place etc ....

That all said I don't need my name in a book to stroke my ego as that's what all the clubs do


P&Y ... is just like any other club out there it has its rules ...

Imagine owning an FJ 40 Landcruiser and getting pissed off because the Willys Jeep club wont let you in

[Bowzone_Mikey]

Time to announce I`m getting a new Chek-mate Stamp River Longbow ! 41 lb at 28in and 64in in length . Tamu Ash in the limb veneers and black phenolic riser . Being shipped on Wed .
Cheers All and Merry Christmas !!!!!

Sounds Sexy!!!!

[Brez]

I think it's important to realize the context though. In small states where hunter numbers are very high, back in the day, if you increased the range at which an animal can be taken, it has the potential to become a conservation issue. Both from the effective range question and when you combine when a season occurs with the potential number of users (increasing with xbows) conservation can and is a real issue. Yes, of course I realize in today's world many would suggest that compounds and crossbows are not that different in effective range, but based on my experience there are plenty of differences in terms of advantage wildlife. What is important is that jurisdictions evaluate the impacts and make appropriate decisions. If we're talking BC, I think there are very few who don't acccept xbows as archery tackle.
I agree with you on almost everything. Most archery seasons are there for management purposes. To allow hunting when the species are most vulnerable and not over harvest, to have as many recreational hours available to hunters without over harvesting, to allow hunting in close proximity to urban centers, and the reasons go on...
I do disagree with your last statement. I think if you poll bow-hunters, and I mean those that strictly use bows, not cross-bows, you will find many don't accept cross-bows as archery tackle. I, for one, do not. We bow-hunters fought long and hard for our seasons on the basis of management with maximizing recreational time and minimal wildlife impact. I would hate to see our seasons shortened or worsened in any way due to high harvest rates because of technology. I may be a dinosaur.

[J_T]

Well Brez, with all due respect Ive been involved actively in this discussion for a long time and while I represent bowhunters on committee, and hunt only with a bow, Im a hunter first. I have had this discussion for years with bowhunters and 'most' have come around to realize, at the present time, in BC, crossbows - as legal archery tackle -have no negative impact on the bow season, or the establishmment of bow seasons and present no conservation concern.

I certainly dont see bowhunting opportunity trending down.

[Boner]

Seems to me that most crossbows I see advertised for sale on different sites have scopes on them, but can't ever remember seeing a regular bow sporting a scope. I would think that hunting with archery equipment would take a lot more skill to hit what their aiming at than someone shooting a crossbow with a mounted scope.


https://www.leupold.com/hunting-shooting/rangefinders/vendetta-bow-rangefinders/vendetta-2-archery-rangefinder/

I never thought they would make a compound bow mounted optic, but here's a rangefinder.

[coach]

Well Brez, with all due respect Ive been involved actively in this discussion for a long time and while I represent bowhunters on committee, and hunt only with a bow, Im a hunter first. I have had this discussion for years with bowhunters and 'most' have come around to realize, at the present time, in BC, crossbows - as legal archery tackle -have no negative impact on the bow season, or the establishmment of bow seasons and present no conservation concern.

I certainly dont see bowhunting opportunity trending down.


Well said, JT!

H47 - you opened a bit of a can of worms here. Are you going to contact P&Y about your entry into their book?

[Big Lew]

So let me get this right, I'm sure I will be corrected. ;-) If you hunt exclusively with a bow you are an elitist ? It is the company you keep, that makes you an elitist? So what are you if you hunt with a bow "alone" 90% of the season? What are you if you are the only one hunting with a bow while your friends use rifles? Im confused as to what makes you elite?
What are you if you have harvested two BTs with a bow that will make the books, but you have not bothered to have them measured, because you don't give a ****? Who decides who is an elite and who is not, please explain the "label" ? How does the company you keep get you labeled as an elite?

Good post....good rebuttal!

[Big Lew]

Time will tell over the next few years. There seems to be a trend toward more hunters using
modern crossbows rather than other types of bows, including modern compounds. I've shot
both, and yes, there isn't a huge difference in range or lethal effect, but there is a huge difference
in the learning curve to be consistently accurate. It takes a long time for someone using any types
of conventional bows to be consistently accurate at ranges beyond 30 yds. It only takes a few
days to become consistently accurate at ranges well beyond 40 yds when using a good modern crossbow.
With this trend, and conservation issues in mind, it's quite possible the rules or seasons might be adjusted
sometime down the road.

[Brez]

Well Brez, with all due respect Ive been involved actively in this discussion for a long time and while I represent bowhunters on committee, and hunt only with a bow, Im a hunter first. I have had this discussion for years with bowhunters and 'most' have come around to realize, at the present time, in BC, crossbows - as legal archery tackle -have no negative impact on the bow season, or the establishment of bow seasons and present no conservation concern.

I certainly dont see bowhunting opportunity trending down.

Well then we are not in disagreement - yet. Hey, I said, or meant to say, I hope it doesn't happen. I too am a hunter first and wish for sound management of our wildlife to allow for all types of hunting. I'm nearing the end of my hunting career so as with most of our concerns, it will affect me least. I wish to leave the situation the best as possible for future hunters, my sons and grandchildren especially.
I still don't think Cross-bow killed game should not be allowed in the P&Y. P&Y was formed (probably) before compounds were on the market and with specific rules. No need to change it. It's a club, organization, or whatever. It is not elitest. It is what it is and accept it for what it is - or not. Enter or not, that is every hunters' perogative. Doesn't make anyone better than anyone else. If you are happy doing what you are doing and it's legal, knock yourself out. Just don't bring race car to a go-cart race.
I would like healthy populations of hunting quarry to maximize hunting opportunities for all.

[J_T]

Time will tell over the next few years. There seems to be a trend toward more hunters using
modern crossbows rather than other types of bows, including modern compounds. I've shot
both, and yes, there isn't a huge difference in range or lethal effect, but there is a huge difference
in the learning curve to be consistently accurate. It takes a long time for someone using any types
of conventional bows to be consistently accurate at ranges beyond 30 yds. It only takes a few
days to become consistently accurate at ranges well beyond 40 yds when using a good modern crossbow.
With this trend, and conservation issues in mind, it's quite possible the rules or seasons might be adjusted
sometime down the road.
And increased users and concerns of conservation is the basic fear that a lot of hunters have. Bow "Only" seasons typically occur when animals are vulnerable, or in small pockets were safety might be a concern. In the United states, the risk with weapons users presented a concern with having xbows in bow seasons. Increased harvests due to increased hunter numbers and accurate weapons. Using good data and collaboration you make hard decisions to find balance.

I think the current trend we see here toward xbow is for two primary reasons, an aging demographic (Greybark is down to a 41lb longbow) and rifle hunters taking advantage of additional shoulder seasons. My Dad is 88 soon, and he still hunts, because, he has a xbow. He stopped being accurate with a recurve long ago. His passion to be out there is completely there. His passion to harvest an animal, not so much. He still buys licence and tags. When I look at great people like Ken/Greybark and my Father, I'm just glad they still hunt. I don't care what they use.

[J_T]

I thought I might just toss this up for perspective. With the late season Whitetail hunt just about over, I've broken camp and returned home. In a 10 day period we had 11 hunters in camp, 3 xbows, 6 longbow/recurve and 2 compound shooters.

1 out of 3 xbow shooters took an animal.
1 out of 2 compound shooters took an animal. Although the one was being very selective.
5 of 6 traditional shooters took game

Among the bucks taken, two very nice bucks (probably make P&Y if anyone cared) were taken with recurve and longbow.
The fastest recoveries (quickest kills) on animals were all with traditional gear.

[brian]

Pope and Young history lesson.

Pope and Young refers to two men, Saxton Pope and Arthur Young. They studied with Ishi, the last of the 'truly wild' Yahi Indians. He taught them how to make bows and arrows and to hunt as the Yahi did. After Ishi died in 1916 Pope and Young continued to make and hunt extensively with these primitive weapons. Their writing and lectures inspired more people to take up the challenge of bow hunting. Fred Bear was one of their young devotees who went onto film his exploits. Although bow hunting was growing in popularity the bows themselves were perceived by hunters and game managers as mere toys and not suitable weapon for taking wildlife. Bow hunters were struggling for acceptance in an era dominated by firearms. So in the 1950's a record system was adopted to demonstrate how effective bows could be in the field. It was used as a tool to demonstrate to game managers that archery tackle was effective and to push for archery only seasons. The Pope and Young Club was officially formed in 1961 (pre compound bow) out of these efforts.

[Spy]

I thought I might just toss this up for perspective. With the late season Whitetail hunt just about over, I've broken camp and returned home. In a 10 day period we had 11 hunters in camp, 3 xbows, 6 longbow/recurve and 2 compound shooters.

1 out of 3 xbow shooters took an animal.
1 out of 2 compound shooters took an animal. Although the one was being very selective.
5 of 6 traditional shooters took game

Among the bucks taken, two very nice bucks (probably make P&Y if anyone cared) were taken with recurve and longbow.
The fastest recoveries (quickest kills) on animals were all with traditional gear.
Sounds like a happy camp, congrats Jim, can't wait to see the pics...

[J_T]

.... can't wait to see the pics... haha, nice.

[Spy]

haha, nice.
.......... ;-)

[brian]

Seems to me that most crossbows I see advertised for sale on different sites have scopes on them, but can't ever remember seeing a regular bow sporting a scope. I would think that hunting with archery equipment would take a lot more skill to hit what their aiming at than someone shooting a crossbow with a mounted scope.

This is a technical matter. Traditional medieval crossbows were not shouldered as modern ones are, they were brought right up to the shooters face and the archer used the arrow point as the front sight. They could do this because the string was released by a roller nut positioned under the string. Almost all modern crossbows have a trigger system where the string is released from above. This works well from a consistency stand point, but the trigger housing blocks the archer from being able to simply look down the rail and use the arrow as a front sight like a shotgun or rifle. So the easiest solution is to mount the sighting system on the trigger housing itself. The problem with mounting traditional sights then is all the different planes everything is sitting on and the fact that the arrow itself has to travel through the best place to put the sights. Optics are the easiest solution to this problem. In many crossbow competitions optics are not allowed so competition crossbows have all kinds of ungainly sighting systems that would be impractical to use hunting. Modern compounds use sights as the pin combined with the string or peep give you a consistent long sighting plane wheras mounting most optics on the riser alone is awkward or impractical for shooting. For crossbows it is the opposite, conventional sights are more difficult to mount than optics. Hence why modern compounds mostly use pins and crossbows mostly use scopes.

The question of the speed at which one develops skill is a self defeating one. A typical crossbow has an easier learning curve over a compound bow, true. But a compound bow has an easier learning curve over a recurve with sights which has an easier learning curve than a bare bow. Somewhere way down the line is a stick and string shot off your knuckle without a knock point on the string. At what arbitrary point does easier to learn become a negative when your are talking about a string propelling an arrow?

[rocksteady]

I'd suggest those old threads are proof that good conversation can shift peoples perspective, and that less people are opposed. It's very important that you don't lump all those old threads into one conclusion. There is a difference between target archery and bowhunting. Many of them reflected opinions on target.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?132932-Updated-Thoughts-on-Crossbows-vs-Vertical-Bows&highlight=ddog
Here is one of the latest.. Would not call it an "old" one, but if you read the comments, you can see quite a few people do not want crossbows allowed as archery only weaponry..

[J_T]

Mike, on the contrary, I'd suggest that discussion was for the most part a respectful discussion on archery tackle. People may have their opinions and that's fine. What I find I like about the discussions on archery tackle on HBC, is for the most part, when you remove a few of the normal haters and shit disturbers, people can have a good discussion.

I wouldn't take DDogs comment as hateful toward xbows, but rather a discouraged view of last minute hunters hoping to take advantage of it. Which leads to the entire discussion about when is a hunter ready to hunt with archery tackle? When he can shoot it accurately? Or when he knows not to shoot?

Anyone hoping to, wanting to or actively hunting with a bow, should avail themselves of the IBEP. I have rifle hunters who clearly admit, they have become better hunters because of IBEP.

[greybark]

I thought I might just toss this up for perspective. With the late season Whitetail hunt just about over, I've broken camp and returned home. In a 10 day period we had 11 hunters in camp, 3 xbows, 6 longbow/recurve and 2 compound shooters.

1 out of 3 xbow shooters took an animal.
1 out of 2 compound shooters took an animal. Although the one was being very selective.
5 of 6 traditional shooters took game

Among the bucks taken, two very nice bucks (probably make P&Y if anyone cared) were taken with recurve and longbow.
The fastest recoveries (quickest kills) on animals were all with traditional gear.

Well done to the "T" and associates group on a great season ! Thoughts and memories always lead to next year .
Cheers

[Big Lew]

Another perspective J_T. At one time I had negative feelings toward 'John Doe' deciding
at the last minute, so to speak, that he/she wanted to go out hunting during the archery
only seasons, so rushed in and bought a crossbow before heading out. Of course this
still is a problem, but I realize that many people also do that with compound bows, or any
other bows, and they do it with rifles as well during firearm seasons. There's no specific
difference in the type of weapon those that are less than responsible or conscientious decide
to choose.

[greybark]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?132932-Updated-Thoughts-on-Crossbows-vs-Vertical-Bows&highlight=ddog
Here is one of the latest.. Would not call it an "old" one, but if you read the comments, you can see quite a few people do not want crossbows allowed as archery only weaponry..

I counted only three specific negative posts of over 80 . Majority were supportive . A great and welcome improvement of distance past .
Cheers and Merry Christmas Mike and Family .

[rocksteady]

Mike, on the contrary, I'd suggest that discussion was for the most part a respectful discussion on archery tackle. People may have their opinions and that's fine. What I find I like about the discussions on archery tackle on HBC, is for the most part, when you remove a few of the normal haters and shit disturbers, people can have a good discussion.

I wouldn't take DDogs comment as hateful toward xbows, but rather a discouraged view of last minute hunters hoping to take advantage of it. Which leads to the entire discussion about when is a hunter ready to hunt with archery tackle? When he can shoot it accurately? Or when he knows not to shoot?

Anyone hoping to, wanting to or actively hunting with a bow, should avail themselves of the IBEP. I have rifle hunters who clearly admit, they have become better hunters because of IBEP.

I have no problem with the x-bow haters, they have an opinion too... I just resent the fact that some say you should only be able to use if you have a certified disability... Its a free country.. It is legal in BC, get over it... If you wish to only hunt by archery, year round, good on you, but that is your choice.. Don't frown on others who take advantage of different technology to achieve the same personal goal (meat in the freezer).. If they had a special "spear only" season for a certain species... I may even give it a try and sure as hell would not look down on others that do..

Getting back to the last minute purchases of crossbows or compounds for that matter, it take skill and practice to hunt via any archery equipment , those that do the last minute purchases find out that it is not as easy as they thought, so they either hone their skills or sell their gear..


I know of some states that have a blackpowder only season and the traditional muzzleloader types (Hawken etc) got all up in arms when the new "in lines" came out with great accuracy and scopes... If you can't beat them, may as well join them... No use whining about what everyone else has versus what you have... Life is too short..

[rocksteady]

I counted only three specific negative posts of over 80 . Majority were supportive . A great and welcome improvement of distance past .
Cheers and Merry Christmas Mike and Family .

This is only the latest thread, if you go further back you will see more.... Used it as an example....

I use whatever weapon I want (x-bow, compound, rifle, non magnum rifle, magnum rifle, Savage, Mossberg, Marlin, open sights, scoped, shotgun ....) and could not care less what everyone else is using, as long as they are getting out and having fun...

[Spy]

This is only the latest thread, if you go further back you will see more.... Used it as an example....

I use whatever weapon I want (x-bow, compound, rifle, non magnum rifle, magnum rifle, Savage, Mossberg, Marlin, open sights, scoped, shotgun ....) and could not care less what everyone else is using, as long as they are getting out and having fun...
Sounds like everyone is in agreement :-)

[Brez]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?132932-Updated-Thoughts-on-Crossbows-vs-Vertical-Bows&highlight=ddog
Here is one of the latest.. Would not call it an "old" one, but if you read the comments, you can see quite a few people do not want crossbows allowed as archery only weaponry..
I did not comment on this thread as my opinion is moot. If it's legal and you are responsible, have at her and have fun and good luck. This thread was about cross-bow kills being entered in the P&Y records. I probably derailed or rerailed this thread onto the other one and I'm sorry for that. Any animal taken with archery tackle speaks to the skill of the hunter in getting close and knowing his/her quarry. I applaud that. J_T you make some very good comments, as do many others.

[GoatGuy]

Could care less what the requirements are.

The "record takers" and "record makers" seem to have lost touch with the point of keeping records in the first place (success of conservation movement).

Different strokes for different folks, but would say the number of ppl not participating in 'record books' in BC is on the rise.

Seems this stuff can bring the worst out in the hunting community.

[RiverOtter]

Where did Wayne go???:twisted:

[Ddog]

probably went shed hunting,,,

[rocksteady]

Saw a whitey buck yesterday that had already shed his bones..

[knighthunter]

Here is a link to Canada's coast to coast hunting reg's for crossbow. Sure hope it works.
www.outdoorcanada.ca/crosslaw