Never again?

[blacklab]

A couple of pictures of what white tail hunting was like before the current extermination program began.
These are southern BC bucks.
My grandson starts hunting next year I doubt he will have this kind of opportunity.
http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc36/jmlay/20161212_071417_zps6faooari.jpg?1481643962570&1481643970400&1481643985256&1481643992718&1481644013211

[blacklab]

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc36/jmlay/20161212_071417_zps6faooari.jpg?1481644833024&1481644845886&1481644853982&1481644871935

[blacklab]

Sorry for the double post, I can't seem to get photo bucket to cooperate.

[blacklab]

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc36/jmlay/20161212_070754_zpssu8eyljs.jpg?1481645318196&1481645330009&1481645330373&1481645346220&1481645362730&1481645365863

[russm]

Perhaps if there wasn't 2 guys taking 5 big bucks there would still be the opportunity.

[Fella]

Welp, better get the popcorn out.

[ghunter4x4]

These pictures remind me of the old photos of guys standing beside an alpine lake with stringers full of fish. Then complaining that there are no fish left.
Just memories now!

[604Stalker]

Sorry extermination program? please enlighten those of us that are younger or newer?

[Andrewh]

I see it as a lesson learned for you, more hunters back then taking multiple trophy class bucks equals fewer for next generation...

[guest]

My own opinion.
you will see pics or results like this again.

Only difference, five bucks like that could have five hunters behind them . One buck each, mind you, these five hunters will have to be far more educated on the modern BC whitetail, dedicated, strong willed and willing to pass on the many dink bucks that walk by previous to crackers like these.

great pic from the past ........ But a far deeper subject then the extermination you so claim. Please do tell though, many are listening.

ct

[blacklab]

I've got pictures like this up to the last 3 or 4 years, so us old guys didn't kill them all.
Funny some of the comments. The experts say you can't hurt whitetail by hunting.
The extermination program I refer to, is the antlerless seasons and bag limits.
One of the pictures was from the fall of 96, before the crash during the bad winter of 96/97.
It took about 5 years to get back to second picture, and continued until the open antlerless season began.
We can have this again with proper management.

[Whonnock Boy]

How are the Mulie populations doing?

[albravo2]

Not sure why so many people jump to the conclusion that this was anything but an epic, legal and ethical hunting trip.

And then they ask why nobody posts stuff anymore.

Awesome photo.

[blacklab]

How are the Mulie populations doing?
Read my Valerius Geist thread again!

[Whonnock Boy]

Yes, I remember, but did you give any thought to what I commented?

"Interesting comments, but is Mr. Gheist not speaking in terms related to thousands of years with words like "evolution", "ancestor", and "descendants"? I suspect he is, and I question how much humans have impacted the increased spread of whitetail populations."


Read my Valerius Geist thread again!

[blacklab]

Not sure why so many people jump to the conclusion that this was anything but an epic, legal and ethical hunting trip.

And then they ask why nobody posts stuff anymore.

Awesome photo.
Thank you.
There were more than the two hunters in the photos. We could take 2 bucks in those days, but we rarely did.

[Keta1969]

Not sure why so many people jump to the conclusion that this was anything but an epic, legal and ethical hunting trip.

And then they ask why nobody posts stuff anymore.

Awesome photo.

x2. It's a great pic. As for the comments, it's good that some guys would let bucks like these walk.(yeah right)

[Whonnock Boy]

A couple of pictures of what white tail hunting was like before the current extermination program began.

He opened the flood gates on himself.


Not sure why so many people jump to the conclusion that this was anything but an epic, legal and ethical hunting trip.

And then they ask why nobody posts stuff anymore.

Awesome photo.

[MichelD]

No comment.

I have been hunting since 1967 and I have never seen a whitetail buck.

[Linksman313]

Wow 1996 is considered way back when, holy sh%^t now I feel old. My family hunts never came close to looking like this photo in '96 (more like one decent buck and a pile of grouse and rabbit to make up the difference. The comment that "we could take two bucks, but rarely did" does not hold water my friend, especially with this photo to preface the comment.

[604Stalker]

I somehow doubt based on buck to doe ratio studies that it is a matter of antlerless hunting and a bag limit of a doe and buck that caused a lack of deer like this being ' common ' as much as habitat destruction and their adaptation to the pressure. Im sure they are out there they just probably aee us more than we see them nowdays.

[Bugle M In]

Hey Guys....Relax...
There was a time when hunters could go out and hit everything in site.
That no longer exists, so lets not dwell in the past.

Blacklab....I am impressed...those are some awfully nice bucks!
I am impressed that bucks like that exist in BC!.
I do remember the die off of deer in 96/97.
Even spoke to the CO at the time.
Up in the Kettle Valley back then, they estimated that at least 50% of the Mulies died due to the weather elements that year.
Not sure if that was the area you took these bucks in, and I don't exactly know how the weather of 96/97 impacted
whitetail at that time, as whitetails tend to roam and live in lower elevations compared to the Mulies in that area that spend
much of their time in the alpine/sub alpine areas.

One question, is that land that you hunted back then private land/ranch land now, or was it already the case back then, or
is it still crown land.

Any other reason you can think of for their decline.
As said, not sure where you took these deer, or at what time, but many areas now are off limits to hunt as they are farmland etc,
and off limits or should I say, no permission given, and those type of bucks only show up late in the season, in such areas, thus
the reason at times, we don't see deer like that taken any longer.

Just my opinion, but thanks for the photo's......nice bucks....congrats!

[BCHunterFSJ]

I've got pictures like this up to the last 3 or 4 years, so us old guys didn't kill them all.
Funny some of the comments. The experts say you can't hurt whitetail by hunting.
The extermination program I refer to, is the antlerless seasons and bag limits.
One of the pictures was from the fall of 96, before the crash during the bad winter of 96/97.
It took about 5 years to get back to second picture, and continued until the open antlerless season began.
We can have this again with proper management.

I agree with blacklab about poor management. Up here in Region 7b the season for whitetails used to open Nov.1st and there were lots of nice bucks around. Then they opened up the season from Sept until the end of Nov. and threw in a doe season. Deer were now being harvested during the moose and elk seasons. Along with predation, I believe that this has been an important factor in the decline in the quality of whitetail hunting in this region

[dwayne26]

The Beaverdell bar had several pictures on the wall just like the pictures posted above. They pictures were on the wall above the pool table. I used to look in "awe" of the row of 10-12 whitey's lined up on the ground. Seemed like there was a lot more animals back in "The day". I miss that bar.. Home of the "Horny Beaver".

[Whonnock Boy]

No need to take this to PM's. I read the Val Gheist article, and came to a conclusion, which if true, nullified your point to posting it. I'm curious as well in regards to a question asked by another poster. Were these bucks harvested on private, or crown lands?

[blacklab]

I'll try to respond to some of the comments.
I said we rarely took two bucks, it wasn't because we didn't try. We didn't shoot many little bucks.
I've hunted white tail since 1985 in regions 4 and 8. I've taken thirty five to 40 bucks.
I've never shot one in a farmers field, never shot one road hunting. The longest shot I've made is about eighty yards, most under 50 yards.
I hunt public access crown land.

[GoatGuy]

To get age there's a couple things you can do.

1) Turn up productivity (ie more fawns/100 does). This can be done by managing the population down (if possible), reduce juv mortality from predation, or increasing habitat productivity.

2) Turn down buck harvest by reducing the bag limit or season length - particularly during the rut for wt.


Thing no one mentions about CV, Rock Creek, Beaverdell is the change in habitat productivity. Most of the old hot spots are either over-browsed, logged, or both. By and large habitat productivity on winter range is way down. Browse species are old and decadent in many of the old 'hot spots'. There are a few spots on the fringe that were mechanically thinned when logging took a downturn (see make work project) where there was a positive response by browse communities. That is where you now find age, and higher density deer pops but it is tougher to hunt than those old fir stands/fringe areas.

Course this discussion is strictly about wt and mentions nothing about the landscape level decline in Mule deer in that country, of which a pile of the research points at white-tailed deer as a primary cause of the decline.

WTs are expanding their range throughout BC, particularly in Region 3 and 5.

Not sure people recognize they are making conscious decisions, or have made conscious decisions in the past ie in the RC, CV, Beaverdell/Boundary country in terms of mule deer through white-tailed deer.......

[IronNoggin]

... My grandson starts hunting next year I doubt he will have this kind of opportunity.


He will, but he may have to work a little harder for those opportunities IMHO.

Just returned from the late archery season in Region 8. Saw many bucks, a handful of decent up & comers, and two that would literally blow all of those you posted right out of the water. Seriously. They still exist, and certainly don't do that by allowing hunters such as myself & my partner to get within bow range... :lol:

Also saw one hell of a lot of does for an "exterminated species".
Ended up coming home with a nice little three point, and an older dry doe.

Cheers,
Nog

[blacklab]

Yup, lets make as difficult as we can for kids and new hunters so that the heroes can sit in a farmers field and shoot a big buck.
Most kids that don't live in hunting country may if they're lucky get a long weekend a year to hunt.
Let them shoot does and fawns as long as we can have the big ones.

[Steve W]

Nice. There were other areas like that too. Prior to the bad winters of 96-97 and 97-98 we had exceptional white-tail hunting in those regions. Use to see bucks like those fairly regularly being taken and some big mulies. Next years were pretty bleak.

[monasheemountainman]

beauty bucks great picture....I donno there have been quite a few decent whitetails posted on this site this fall...

[gutpile]

Maybe ICBC has something to do with the decline in deer population in the Rockcreek area !

[Linksman313]

Maybe ICBC has something to do with the decline in deer population in the Rockcreek area !
In my experience the fact that every piece of deer habitat in and around Rock Creek is now private ranch land may have a bigger impact. The amount of fences and signs have increased 100 fold since I began hunting that area 15 years ago. Quite depressing as it was great Mule country years back.

[gutpile]

you would think private land would actually help the deer population !

[Surrey Boy]

These pictures remind me of the old photos of guys standing beside an alpine lake with stringers full of fish. Then complaining that there are no fish left.
Just memories now!

Back when Kitsilano was summer homes for residents of Vancouver.

[kennyj]

Nice photos! Lots of great bucks still out there.
thanks for posting.
kenny

[goatdancer]

Nice. There were other areas like that too. Prior to the bad winters of 96-97 and 97-98 we had exceptional white-tail hunting in those regions. Use to see bucks like those fairly regularly being taken and some big mulies. Next years were pretty bleak.

The crazy part was those areas still had 200 doe draws per year immediately after the killing winters.

[Grumpa Joe]

Great bucks! I am envious of all of those bucks. I've never seen any close to that in real life.

Curious if there is any science on what impact the increase in the wolf population has had on ungulates? They are eating machines. Just need to look at the decimation created by the re-introduction of wolves to the Yellowstone area. A healthy 20,000 head elk population reduced to 6,000 in short order. I'm not blaming any declines, if there have been any, in total whtietail populations, solely on 4 legged predators. As a species we do tend to screw things up. There is also the question of whether they have expanded their areas out of the OP's historical range to avoid pressure or for easier forage?

Not looking for a fight just posing some questions.

[Whonnock Boy]

This is an entertaining thread. Not so much the comments, but the overall concern for a species of ungulate that has proven to be the most prolific ungulate in North America. Shouldn't we be concerning ourselves with decreased moose and mule deer populations, habitat degradation, and predator numbers, rather than the size of some wt deer antlers?

[horshur]

This is an entertaining thread. Not so much the comments, but the overall concern for a species of ungulate that has proven to be the most prolific ungulate in North America. Shouldn't we be concerning ourselves with decreased moose and mule deer populations, habitat degradation, and predator numbers, rather than the size of some wt deer antlers?

you ever hunt back then?

[blacklab]

The crazy part was those areas still had 200 doe draws per year immediately after the killing winters.
200 draws was a hell of a lot better than the 71 day antlerless killing spree in regions 4 and 8, we have now.

[Whonnock Boy]

Yes, but I must admit, it was very early in my hunting career. Where do you want to go with this?


you ever hunt back then?

[Whonnock Boy]

Have you been taking classes with the anti-hunting fraternity? Killing spree.... Extermination..... Next up. Slaughter..... lol


antlerless killing spree

[Stone Sheep Steve]

200 draws was a hell of a lot better than the 71 day antlerless killing spree in regions 4 and 8, we have now.

71 days killing spree? Do you mean the 21 day antlerless whitetail season? Plus the 30 day youth season in November? Still doesn't add up? Or are you including the archery seasons too??

[northof49]

I agree with blacklab about poor management. Up here in Region 7b the season for whitetails used to open Nov.1st and there were lots of nice bucks around. Then they opened up the season from Sept until the end of Nov. and threw in a doe season. Deer were now being harvested during the moose and elk seasons. Along with predation, I believe that this has been an important factor in the decline in the quality of whitetail hunting in this region

Bingo.....and then along comes 1 or 2 cold winter or lots of snow, more wolves and everyone is surprised numbers are down. Another poor decision up there was removing the early morning ATV restriction.

[Hunterguy]

Nice picks, in 83 took the horses in for a 3 week trip south gang. Area split to regions so we could take two deer. Not two moose so our meat divided by four was not a waste. We're awesome trips with our horses, even took a day off to chase cattle out of the valley with Ray Rocette. We weren't road hunting as there was not as many roads that have opened up unlimited areas now a days. Nothing lasts forever whether it be hunting or fishing.

[Salty]

Never again because as said the bag limits don't allow that many deer for 2 guys. But those class of bucks are still with us we see pics of them taken here for instance most years. The next generations will still be taking nice white tail deer throughout BC.

[blacklab]

71 days killing spree? Do you mean the 21 day antlerless whitetail season? Plus the 30 day youth season in November? Still doesn't add up? Or are you including the archery seasons too??
You think bow hunters don't kill antlerless?

[Surrey Boy]

My grandfather told me that in the 1940s everyone poached as meat was so expensive. He shot a lynx in 1943 and sold it to the army for $3.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

You think bow hunters don't kill antlerless?

Yes. It's an absolute killing spree out there right now! Lol! You need to
grab a bow and go hunt.

[BgBlkDg]

When, I was a young man, several of the old timers I was trained by in the BCFS and privately, 50+ years ago, had been "professional" poachers in the "Dirty 30s" and into the war years of the 1940s.

Some now would carp about this, but, times were VERY tough, people actually starved in Canada, and the game taken was EATEN by local folks. It was OUR game, not that of rich foreign trophy collectors and WHY NOT?

There were few vehicles, roads or GOs and this was survival for the people who lived in the Kootenays and OWNED the game. I would have done the same thing and it was morally correct, IMO.

It is a different world in BC now and we need to manage things far more than was the case in past times.

[adriaticum]

Have you been taking classes with the anti-hunting fraternity? Killing spree.... Extermination..... Next up. Slaughter..... lol


it's a ****ing genocide lol

I don't understand the point of your thread blacklab.
You are showing me pictures of 5 dead deer in one day and at the same time blaming something else for the lack of deer in your area?
Am I getting this correctly?

[Sitkaspruce]

I agree with blacklab about poor management. Up here in Region 7b the season for whitetails used to open Nov.1st and there were lots of nice bucks around. Then they opened up the season from Sept until the end of Nov. and threw in a doe season. Deer were now being harvested during the moose and elk seasons. Along with predation, I believe that this has been an important factor in the decline in the quality of whitetail hunting in this region

We can thank the Cattlemans Ass. and the Peace Farmers for these seasons, same as the elk and MD. They put so much pressure on the Gov to have these seasons due to crop predation that we are now in a free fall for MD. This year we saw tons of WT, moose and elk and the hunting group as a whole saw many more WT deer and good bucks than in the last 10 years. But it still not even close to what it was prior to 96 and 06.

Blacklab

The reason we don't see these pictures any more is because most people hold their deer close and only share to their friends. I have quite a few picts of good WT bucks that will never hit the web and not all from up here.

You need to relax and stop worrying about WT deer and channel your energy towards MD and the habitat that will sustain these deer so that your grandchildren will still be able to hunt them. Election time is come up and now is the time to be asking the hard questions to the politicians and want to be politicians about your worries etc.

Nice picts of some good bucks is always nice to see, thanks for posting!!!

Cheers

SS

[horshur]

Yes, but I must admit, it was very early in my hunting career. Where do you want to go with this?

buck hunting then was better then doe hunting now....

[blacklab]

It's not me I worry about, I've had a good run, and still kill some good bucks, just like the old days.
I worry people have been convinced we can get more mule deer if we reduce white tail numbers.
Don't get the idea I don't care about mule deer.
I think the whitetail antlerless season is putting added pressure on mule dear.
We have an antlerless white tail season concurrent with the any buck mule deer season in regions 3 and 8.
I don't think anybody is going to pass on a mule deer buck if they're out for the antlerless white tail season.

[darrin6109]

So I haven't been on this site for many years, and now I remember why. A fellow hunter posts some great looking buck pictures that were taken legally and all the trolls come out of the wood work and cut him down. Its unfortunate that these losers are still on here.

[guest]

So I haven't been on this site for many years, and now I remember why. A fellow hunter posts some great looking buck pictures that were taken legally and all the trolls come out of the wood work and cut him down. Its unfortunate that these losers are still on here.

Ya But But But ........ You used to contribute to the Female Appreciation Thread ........ All the time. We miss you.

Lol

CT

[darrin6109]

Thats funny Curly! does that thread even exist?

[Rhyno]

Thats funny Curly! does that thread even exist?

Not to derail this thread, but the female appreciation thread is the most viewed and appreciated in HBC history:)

[guest]

Thats funny Curly! does that thread even exist?

besides ........ Some a Big Whities for YA ....... And ......... Before and After threads .......... It's right up there ...... Still

Darrin, your good contributions continue:lol::lol::lol:

[Whonnock Boy]

Did you actually read his post? He was not posting them to show his success. He was posting them to complain about management decisions.


So I haven't been on this site for many years, and now I remember why. A fellow hunter posts some great looking buck pictures that were taken legally and all the trolls come out of the wood work and cut him down. Its unfortunate that these losers are still on here.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Did you actually read his post? He was not posting them to show his success. He was posting them to complain about management decisions.

Yep. Thread after thread with the same complaint. Leave HBC. Come back and complain some more.

This thread isn't about a couple pics of some nice whitetail bucks....unfortunately.

SSS

[GoatGuy]

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/R4wtd.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/R8WTD.jpg

[GoatGuy]

I don't care about mule deer.


Then this all makes sense.

Just agree to disagree is all.

[HarryToolips]

Never again because as said the bag limits don't allow that many deer for 2 guys. But those class of bucks are still with us we see pics of them taken here for instance most years. The next generations will still be taking nice white tail deer throughout BC.
Exactly, look at how many awesome wt bucks have been posted on this site just this season...in fact, a wt antlerless season will actually produce MORE mature bucks, just so you know Blacklab, an antlerless season takes some pressure off of the bucks, and as GoatGuy said, you will see a better fawn:doe ratio...I know it's hard to convince you out of your old beliefs, but you really should educate yourself, buy the book 'Whitetail Advantage' or look into other literature done on the science behind proper wt management....the main difference in hunting now from back then, however, is forest service road access, this is where I agree it needs to be managed - this IMO should be part of habitat restoration, that will hopefully be funded for in the future by hopefully allocating ALL wildlife and hunting $$$ back into wildlife and creating good habitat...

[darrin6109]

I guess it all depends how you read the post?

[Islandeer]

Well read this. In 1996 our crew slayedi whites in the ek.
7 bucks 2 trophy class 140 to 150. It crashed a bit for a few years.
we hunted hard in timber for all of our bucks that year. So since then our group has taken 1 buck per hunter, with no trophy class bucks. However we have not hunted for trophy class bucks taking what the ridges gave us.

Flash forward to this season my bro and crew take 4 great white tails from our old haunts. Same as in 96, 4 hunters 4 great bucks.
So the hunt is still on, it's pure and full of hope.

[Seeker]

One morning, one afternoon for whities this year. A total of around 9 hours. Two beautiful bucks. One dead. 13 does. Mostly driving. Minimal effort.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/bbrobertson/20161128_131318_zpsncjncof8.jpg (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/bbrobertson/media/20161128_131318_zpsncjncof8.jpg.html)

No cameras this year, three last year...... again minimal effort.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/bbrobertson/th_EK000022_zpsdy12wyee.mp4 (http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/bbrobertson/EK000022_zpsdy12wyee.mp4)

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/bbrobertson/th_EK000008_zps10wfsbcf.mp4 (http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/bbrobertson/EK000008_zps10wfsbcf.mp4)

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/bbrobertson/th_EK000006_zpspzkvrbzu.mp4 (http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/bbrobertson/EK000006_zpspzkvrbzu.mp4)

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/bbrobertson/th_EK000015_zpsw9zbxku3.mp4 (http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/bbrobertson/EK000015_zpsw9zbxku3.mp4)

Whities are fine......don't worry, Love mulies! They need your help more.

[horshur]

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/R4wtd.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/R8WTD.jpg


so I killed LEH doe in region 8 few years before 87 so I don't know where the zero in 87 comes from?? Thinking 1983 I would have been 13. The other issue I have with the graph...show the hunter days .

[Chopper]

One morning, one afternoon for whities this year. A total of around 9 hours. Two beautiful bucks. One dead. 13 does. Mostly driving. Minimal effort.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/bbrobertson/20161128_131318_zpsncjncof8.jpg (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/bbrobertson/media/20161128_131318_zpsncjncof8.jpg.html)

No cameras this year, three last year...... again minimal effort.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/bbrobertson/th_EK000022_zpsdy12wyee.mp4 (http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/bbrobertson/EK000022_zpsdy12wyee.mp4)

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/bbrobertson/th_EK000008_zps10wfsbcf.mp4 (http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/bbrobertson/EK000008_zps10wfsbcf.mp4)

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/bbrobertson/th_EK000006_zpspzkvrbzu.mp4 (http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/bbrobertson/EK000006_zpspzkvrbzu.mp4)

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/bbrobertson/th_EK000015_zpsw9zbxku3.mp4 (http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/bbrobertson/EK000015_zpsw9zbxku3.mp4)

Whities are fine......don't worry, Love mulies! They need your help more.

i didnt read the whole thread , so im a bit lost on whats going on here , but ... Thats a nice BC whitetail right there

great pic

[Whonnock Boy]

First time trying to figure out the program. I think it's right. :) Region 4 hunter days.

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/15497908_10154211460102194_165530126_n.png?oh=c237 43b5bb81045996b2cdd1d6ee3273&oe=58528F3D

Region 8 hunter days.

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/15577757_10154211466512194_1044110151_n.png?oh=220 eefaf955ae609b5f603a24daa2d8d&oe=58529639

[hunter1947]

Believe it or not there still are a few places within BC where you can still have the same results few and fare between ,,I like seeing older pictures the likes of the ones posted..

[blacklab]

Then this all makes sense.

Just agree to disagree is all.
Too bad you couldn't post the whole sentence.
About what can be expected.

[GoatGuy]

so I killed LEH doe in region 8 few years before 87 so I don't know where the zero in 87 comes from?? Thinking 1983 I would have been 13. The other issue I have with the graph...show the hunter days .

There was only a 'deer tag' prior to 1987, not a wt or md tag. Makes data analysis tough.

There is antlerless harvest in 1987 just so small that it is hard to see on that scale.

[Jack Russell]

Not sure why so many people jump to the conclusion that this was anything but an epic, legal and ethical hunting trip.

And then they ask why nobody posts stuff anymore.

Awesome photo.

Couldn't agree more.

Great pic of nice bucks. And from the not so distant past, either.

[GoatGuy]

Too bad you couldn't post the whole sentence.
About what can be expected.

Why post the whole sentence?

If you don't care about mule deer, there is really no sense in talking about white-tailed deer management as a part of overall wildlife management. There have always been people who don't supported science-based wildlife management. Nothing new to that.

[Whonnock Boy]

Don't feel bad. You're the third person who didn't read the original post.


Couldn't agree more.

Great pic of nice bucks. And from the not so distant past, either.

[GoatGuy]

The number of days it took hunters on average to harvest a white-tailed deer. This is not a perfect metric as we cannot parse out changes in seasons/access/sightability that easily but it is the 'best' metric we currently have.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/R8wtdcpue.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/R4wtdcpue.jpg

[horshur]

First time trying to figure out the program. I think it's right. :) Region 4 hunter days.

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/15497908_10154211460102194_165530126_n.png?oh=c237 43b5bb81045996b2cdd1d6ee3273&oe=58528F3D

Region 8 hunter days.

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/15577757_10154211466512194_1044110151_n.png?oh=220 eefaf955ae609b5f603a24daa2d8d&oe=58529639


So about half as many bucks are being shot as the banner years for a similar hunter days...and a liberal doe season which should have shortened hunter days and raised overall harvest.

[Knute]

Why post the whole sentence?

If you don't care about mule deer, there is really no sense in talking about white-tailed deer management as a part of overall wildlife management. There have always been people who don't supported science-based wildlife management. Nothing new to that.

Qoute from blacklab "Don't get the idea I don't care about mule deer."

To be fair I think he's asking why people don't think he cares about mulw deer???

[GoatGuy]

Qoute from blacklab "Don't get the idea I don't care about mule deer."

To be fair I think he's asking why people don't think he cares about mulw deer???


Looked like he was referring to 'don't get the idea' of apparent competition. That's a science vs. belief issue.

Not the grammar police, maybe he can rewrite so the rest of us can understand it.

[Knute]

Looked like he was referring to 'don't get the idea' of apparent competition. That's a science vs. belief issue.

Not the grammar police, maybe he can rewrite so the rest of us can understand it.

I know, when I first read it I did a double take and then I thought differently about what he was trying to say. Perhaps he'll clarify.

[boxhitch]

200 draws was a hell of a lot better than the 71 day antlerless killing spree in regions 4 and 8, we have now.Any idea on how many does are actually killed in your extermination scenario ?
Probably lots, so there are probably lots of hunters happy to go home with some venison. Do they spend time complaining about not getting a large buck? Not likely, or they could spend more time hunting and instead of filling the freezer, hold out for the big ones. Nice to have choices huh?

[Going Hot]

Absolutely Blacklab, the open Doe is a joke which most thought would have been cancelled with the latest synopsis, the decrease in the population has been extremely visible as we've been hunting the same area for the last ten years in the Christian Valley with the use of trail camera's etc. to get the best intel on the population. The last few years its been really noticeable; smaller population of Does=less estrous and bucks in a given area. Also have had Wolves on camera which adds to the mix as they make quick work on the fawns who have had their mothers shot.

[Brez]

X2, X3,......great photo. Thanks for posting and don't worry about them that like to stir the pot. They can't cook anyway!
Not sure why so many people jump to the conclusion that this was anything but an epic, legal and ethical hunting trip.

And then they ask why nobody posts stuff anymore.

Awesome photo.

[Brez]

Speaking of stirring the pot, how about bow (not cross-bow) season instead of rifle season during the peak rut and no doe season....for all deer and elk.

[HighCountryBC]

Absolutely Blacklab, the open Doe is a joke which most thought would have been cancelled with the latest synopsis, the decrease in the population has been extremely visible as we've been hunting the same area for the last ten years in the Christian Valley with the use of trail camera's etc. to get the best intel on the population. The last few years its been really noticeable; smaller population of Does=less estrous and bucks in a given area. Also have had Wolves on camera which adds to the mix as they make quick work on the fawns who have had their mothers shot.

A lot of coffee shop talk in this post...

Interesting you mention the CV. 2 of my partners checked out an old haunt there this year and it was business as usual. Several camps with multiple deer hanging, couple decent bucks in the 150" class and a pair of them that would throw up some serious numbers.

Sounds like the whitetails have adjusted their habits and some hunters have figured it out and continue to have success while others complain about regulations and go home empty handed.

[walks with deer]

speaking with my uncle a old time rancher and hunter I think it was 95 or 96 when the weather hit real bad and the migration was epic he said bucks hit the dirt like mad just sit on the road and they would come buy..

he said its never happened that hard again..

some things are timing some are adaptation. different crops and food sources can really change things up.

[Bugle M In]

I'll step in here for a second.
I don't think Blacklab doesn't care about the Mule Deer, I think he does.
We all have our own "target animal" each season.
For me it's obvious, Elk.
For other's like Blacklab, it is white tail.
Obviously from his perspective, things have changed.
I have seen the same, when it comes to my "special areas".
But for me, I think the factors are many.
I think for some, they support the reduction of white tails, so as to "protect" the mule deer that seem to be declining.
For others, they are quite happy to hunt white tail, although they care about mule deer, they still rather hunt whities in the end.
So, in that case, we "all agree to disagree", as there are some of us on 1 side of the fence, and others on the other side.

Curious, has anybody seen the tv program " why are elk missing in Yellowstone" (I think that is what it was called)
It was "very interesting" and a "must watch", if this sort of stuff interest you.
Was it because of Wolves and their introduction into Yellowstone, which interestingly enough was when the decline of Elk started??
Was it another Predator, such as Bears or Cougars??
Something Else??
If you watch, you will be surprised what they found, and how one factor and it's change can cause a chain reaction.
Elk dropped from highs of 20,000, to around a quarter of that when the study started.
If you can't watch, I will follow up with the answer later.
Does it relate to us in BC....no....but....it shows how things can change... quickly.

[Elkaholic]

So about half as many bucks are being shot as the banner years for a similar hunter days...and a liberal doe season which should have shortened hunter days and raised overall harvest.

Horshur you are reading those wrong, those are hunter days not buck harvest. I was just at the MoE this week and the Bio there said look at the buck harvest numbers, they are not changing at all really. If it really bothers people about WT deer, which IMO can bounce back like rabbits can, then DONT HARVEST ONE. When there is less does, the bucks have to enter into competition for those does, which gets them moving around. From everything I have read on WT you want the competition for doe's it makes for a healthier herd. There is zero conservation concern in regards to the WT deer right now. Just social pressure.

[Brez]

Common mistake that lots of people, especially in government, make is that what happens in other jurisdictions does not relate to what happens in B.C. It make not be 100% but there is usually some parallel if we are tyalking the same species and concerns.
I'll step in here for a second.
I don't think Blacklab doesn't care about the Mule Deer, I think he does.
We all have our own "target animal" each season.
For me it's obvious, Elk.
For other's like Blacklab, it is white tail.
Obviously from his perspective, things have changed.
I have seen the same, when it comes to my "special areas".
But for me, I think the factors are many.
I think for some, they support the reduction of white tails, so as to "protect" the mule deer that seem to be declining.
For others, they are quite happy to hunt white tail, although they care about mule deer, they still rather hunt whities in the end.
So, in that case, we "all agree to disagree", as there are some of us on 1 side of the fence, and others on the other side.

Curious, has anybody seen the tv program " why are elk missing in Yellowstone" (I think that is what it was called)
It was "very interesting" and a "must watch", if this sort of stuff interest you.
Was it because of Wolves and their introduction into Yellowstone, which interestingly enough was when the decline of Elk started??
Was it another Predator, such as Bears or Cougars??
Something Else??
If you watch, you will be surprised what they found, and how one factor and it's change can cause a chain reaction.
Elk dropped from highs of 20,000, to around a quarter of that when the study started.
If you can't watch, I will follow up with the answer later.
Does it relate to us in BC....no....but....it shows how things can change... quickly.

[Xenomorph]

Yup, lets make as difficult as we can for kids and new hunters so that the heroes can sit in a farmers field and shoot a big buck.
Most kids that don't live in hunting country may if they're lucky get a long weekend a year to hunt.
Let them shoot does and fawns as long as we can have the big ones.


I'm sorry if I come across as impertinent, but if it's easy peasy shoot-in-the-barrel deer you want for your nephew, then why don't you take him to Queen Charlotte, Texada etc. Plenty of spots and game for that, plenty of spots and game in a lot of the areas, even for a new and inexperienced hunter as myself. I can sit here and bitch and complain about the wasted opportunities of investment into Apple and Facebook, but instead I'd like to talk about how to instill good behaviour/personality/wisdom/know-how to my kids ...or if I should extrapolate to this, how about we talk about habitat, habitat, habitat. And then when we tired enough, we talk some more habitat.

[Bugle M In]

Horshur you are reading those wrong, those are hunter days not buck harvest. I was just at the MoE this week and the Bio there said look at the buck harvest numbers, they are not changing at all really. If it really bothers people about WT deer, which IMO can bounce back like rabbits can, then DONT HARVEST ONE. When there is less does, the bucks have to enter into competition for those does, which gets them moving around. From everything I have read on WT you want the competition for doe's it makes for a healthier herd. There is zero conservation concern in regards to the WT deer right now. Just social pressure.

That is probably the simplest understanding, and the best way to present the issue and explanation...bravo.

[Going Hot]

Don't visit the coffee shops much but have spent countless hours in the woods hunting the forementioned areas and sure there are 150 class bucks out there still but overall the numbers appear to way down bud. And no I didn't go home empty handed. Hahaha.

You've been shouting from your soapbox about this for awhile and calling it science....ridiculous:wink:

http://huntingbc.ca/forum/images/shades_of_green/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by HighCountryBC http://huntingbc.ca/forum/images/shades_of_green/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1847098#post1847098) This has been beaten to death. Whitetail are the most studied ungulate in North America. A very conservative doe season like we have in BC is a drop of water in the bucket.

Whitetails are a resilient species that can adapt to pretty much any environment. Many states allow the harvest of multiple does and there are several jurisdictions that require the harvest of a doe before a tag for a buck will even be issued. Even with wide open doe seasons like that, they can't knock the numbers back.

Time to get off the social management train. Yes, now it is difficult to cruise the fsr's and catch one dumb enough to stand around long enough to get shot. Again - whitetails are resilient and adapt better to pressure than any other species we hunt in BC.

[Seeker]

i didnt read the whole thread , so im a bit lost on whats going on here , but ... Thats a nice BC whitetail right there

great pic

Blacklab thinks we are blowing smoke about seeing and harvesting quality whitetail bucks....he keeps asking for pictures to prove it! I will be the first to admit some luck was involved with the buck above, but I saw plenty of deer for one day of hunting. Anywhere I place a trail camera, I get at least one respectable buck(5+ point) visit the cam site. I still don't think it will influence his opinion. I respect the passion. The complete disregard for sound scientific management however leaves something to be desired.

[horshur]

Looking at the charts.

1991- 6100 hunter days gave back 3500 bucks and 500 does in region 8.

2013- 8000 hunter days gave back 2000 bucks and 1000 does.

The difference between the two years 1900 more hunter days to kill 1500 less bucks and 500 more does. In 91 4000 whitetails killed compared to 3000 in 2013.

1000 less deer 1900 more hunter days......why would anyone notice??.

[Whonnock Boy]

I'll go back to one of my original comments. How's the mulie population doing? I'll add, what is the carrying capacity, and what shape is the habitat in?

We can talk in circles about how it used to be, but when we get down to the nuts and bolts of it, maybe "used to be" was an abnormality. Maybe it wasn't. Has it not been said that harvesting through all age classes, and both sexes is most beneficial for the herd? And that's what appears to be happening. Look at the hunter days versus harvest in 1987. A lot of days with few harvests, but that didn't slow down their reproduction rate to the peak in 94-95.


Looking at the charts.

1991- 6100 hunter days gave back 3500 bucks and 500 does in region 8.

2013- 8000 hunter days gave back 2000 bucks and 1000 does.

The difference between the two years 1900 more hunter days to kill 1500 less bucks and 500 more does. In 91 4000 whitetails killed compared to 3000 in 2013.

1000 less deer 1900 more hunter days......why would anyone notice??.

[GoatGuy]

Looking at the charts.

1991- 6100 hunter days gave back 3500 bucks and 500 does in region 8.

2013- 8000 hunter days gave back 2000 bucks and 1000 does.

The difference between the two years 1900 more hunter days to kill 1500 less bucks and 500 more does. In 91 4000 whitetails killed compared to 3000 in 2013.

1000 less deer 1900 more hunter days......why would anyone notice??.


It's all about baselines.........

[Ourea]

Time to put away the fax machines, rotary phones, VHS cassettes folks .....times have changed.

We have changed the landscape in this province....and continue to do so.....at accelerated and unprecedented levels.
Yet a lot of us want to focus on the past.....try and make things the way they were "back then".
It is a ridiculous position to take knowing that hunting numbers are growing and most want more hunting opportunity.
WT are the only species that can keep pace with the changing landscape and hunter demands yet still maintain a viable population.

Yet here we are crawling thru the mud on this topic.
Ridiculous.

[Backwoods]

Right on! Thanks for sharing!! You boys done good! Great bucks, As for some comments, just say "yah hate us because you ant us!" It not like you go out stone sheep hunting every year and shoot 6-7yr even small 8yr old Rams good breeder Rams like some shoot year after year hurting stone sheep population but some choose too! :( Whitetails don't come easy as we all know, those are some great bucks I doubt they came easy!!

[Salty]

Is just me or is the percentage of posters that don't read most of the thread at an all time high here :confused: No one is bad mouthing the photo and success of the bucks shown from decades ago. Many are challenging the doom and gloom scenario of white tails in BC put forward by the OP and a few others. Does the title not give a clue? sheesh..

[Ourea]

Is just me or is the percentage of posters that don't read most of the thread at an all time high here :confused: No one is bad mouthing the photo and success of the bucks shown from decades ago. Many are challenging the doom and gloom scenario of white tails in BC put forward by the OP and a few others. Does the title not give a clue? sheesh..

Most on this site have the attention span of a chipmunk on Red Bull
They knee jerk to a post rather than read thru a thread and understand the spirit in which it was intended.

Salty, you are getting mad at midgets for being short.

[blacklab]

If anyone thinks I'm not still taking whitetail bucks, they're wrong. Never did I say I can't still kill bucks like the ones in the pictures at the opening of this thread.

Yes I keep harping on this topic. It's not about me! I can't understand why we can't have a population of white tail to provide some quality hunting.

[Salty]

If anyone thinks I'm not still taking whitetail bucks, they're wrong. Never did I say I can't still kill bucks like the ones in the pictures at the opening of this thread.

Yes I keep harping on this topic. It's not about me! I can't understand why we can't have a population of white tail to provide some quality hunting.

So you agree that there's still quality hunting but you want a population to provide quality hunting. That makes no sense to me.

[Whonnock Boy]

Contradiction at its finest. I think it's been covered a few times here, and on other threads. WT population encroachment, habitat, mule deer populations, harvest of all age classes and sexes, quality hunting without antlers viable and warranted, prolific breeders, access X 100, times have changed, range rats, field carp....


If anyone thinks I'm not still taking whitetail bucks, they're wrong. Never did I say I can't still kill bucks like the ones in the pictures at the opening of this thread.

Yes I keep harping on this topic. It's not about me! I can't understand why we can't have a population of white tail to provide some quality hunting.

[blacklab]

Is just me or is the percentage of posters that don't read most of the thread at an all time high here :confused: No one is bad mouthing the photo and success of the bucks shown from decades ago. Many are challenging the doom and gloom scenario of white tails in BC put forward by the OP and a few others. Does the title not give a clue? sheesh..

Some times it takes a bit of a poke to get people stirred up. The title was that poke.

The last time I looked, there is nothing on this site that is required reading. If you don't want to read it don't look.
Put me on ignore or get me banned you won't hurt my feelings either way.

[Bugle M In]

Blacklab,

If you ever retire from hunting, feel free to pm me the GPS Co-ordinates from where you hunted those whities:mrgreen:

[Brez]

For what it's worth, I get you and a lot of my hunting buddies get you and the others can't. We are thinking about the future (our grandsons) and the others don't get that.
If anyone thinks I'm not still taking whitetail bucks, they're wrong. Never did I say I can't still kill bucks like the ones in the pictures at the opening of this thread.

Yes I keep harping on this topic. It's not about me! I can't understand why we can't have a population of white tail to provide some quality hunting.

[Brez]

All some of us want is to mitigate the changes you mentioned, not compound them, to have a healthy population of ungulates that carry a good proportion of quality animals. I totally understand that a lot of folks will take any animal to make a few sausages, but for some of us, the quality of the animal and hunt is more important. Don't get me wrong, I love those sausages too.\

Time to put away the fax machines, rotary phones, VHS cassettes folks .....times have changed.

We have changed the landscape in this province....and continue to do so.....at accelerated and unprecedented levels.
Yet a lot of us want to focus on the past.....try and make things the way they were "back then".
It is a ridiculous position to take knowing that hunting numbers are growing and most want more hunting opportunity.
WT are the only species that can keep pace with the changing landscape and hunter demands yet still maintain a viable population.

Yet here we are crawling thru the mud on this topic.
Ridiculous.

[Ourea]

All some of us want is to mitigate the changes you mentioned, not compound them, to have a healthy population of ungulates that carry a good proportion of quality animals. I totally understand that a lot of folks will take any animal to make a few sausages, but for some of us, the quality of the animal and hunt is more important. Don't get me wrong, I love those sausages too.\

You're talking to a trophy fag.
I get it in spades

[GoatGuy]

Blacklab,

If you ever retire from hunting, feel free to pm me the GPS Co-ordinates from where you hunted those whities:mrgreen:


MUs close enough?

8-14 and 4-32 lol.

[REMINGTON JIM]

If anyone thinks I'm not still taking whitetail bucks, they're wrong. Never did I say I can't still kill bucks like the ones in the pictures at the opening of this thread.

Yes I keep harping on this topic. It's not about me! I can't understand why we can't have a population of white tail to provide some quality hunting.

READ it all blacklab :( - Bet you WISH you had not posted this up Now ! :shock: If you want to get banned just tell them all GFY ! ( Good For You ) lol

Cheers RJ

[BgBlkDg]

RJ-laffin'......:) :) :)!!!!!!!!!

[blacklab]

I guess I screw up again!
Let me define what I consider quality hunting.
It's being able to spend a day in the bush and see enough deer so you don't feel bad if you take one.
To be able to take a kid, or new hunter out and teach them to hunt. I mean "hunt" as in still hunting, calling, sitting on a stand.
To be able to take my old friend out, help him to a stand a couple of hundred yards from the road and him have a chance to shoot a deer.
To see enough deer so this same person can decide what deer they want to take.

We had all this in this province with white tail deer and it wasn't that long ago.

[Whonnock Boy]

You're a lost cause. lol Have you ever taken time to think about why hunting is not called killing? Have you considered any of the points brought up in this thread, and others, pertaining to wildlife management? I don't think you have due to the fact that you have put your own self interest ahead of all others. Time to think big picture, not me picture.


I guess I screw up again!
Let me define what I consider quality hunting.
It's being able to spend a day in the bush and see enough deer so you don't feel bad if you take one.
To be able to take a kid, or new hunter out and teach them to hunt. I mean "hunt" as in still hunting, calling, sitting on a stand.
To be able to take my old friend out, help him to a stand a couple of hundred yards from the road and him have a chance to shoot a deer.
To see enough deer so this same person can decide what deer they want to take.

We had all this in this province with white tail deer and it wasn't that long ago.

[Squamch]

Dang it's a good thing you don't hunt black tails or you'd figure they were nearly extinct!

[Ron.C]

I guess I screw up again!
Let me define what I consider quality hunting.
It's being able to spend a day in the bush and see enough deer so you don't feel bad if you take one.
To be able to take a kid, or new hunter out and teach them to hunt. I mean "hunt" as in still hunting, calling, sitting on a stand.
To be able to take my old friend out, help him to a stand a couple of hundred yards from the road and him have a chance to shoot a deer.
To see enough deer so this same person can decide what deer they want to take.

We had all this in this province with white tail deer and it wasn't that long ago.

I agree with everything you said in this post with the exception of the last sentence. Every point you made that in your words define " quality hunting" still exists. Not a single point you mention has anything to do with antler size, or the definition would be quality trophy whitetail hunting

[horshur]

The open doe seasons were sold as a recruitment tool...but really they are a whitetail deer cull. It was promoted as an opportunity(self interest). Short term probably has been long term not so much.
You guys selling the hunting isn't about killing. Get over it! Going hunting and not getting anything is a luxury the next generation might not be able to afford...And it is not much of a recruitment strategy!

In my opinion hunting deer is about putting meat in the freezer I don't have the luxury of coming home again and again with nothing to show......If I wanted to do that I'd be a trophy hunter!

[HighCountryBC]

I guess I screw up again!
Let me define what I consider quality hunting.
It's being able to spend a day in the bush and see enough deer so you don't feel bad if you take one.
To be able to take a kid, or new hunter out and teach them to hunt. I mean "hunt" as in still hunting, calling, sitting on a stand.
To be able to take my old friend out, help him to a stand a couple of hundred yards from the road and him have a chance to shoot a deer.
To see enough deer so this same person can decide what deer they want to take.

We had all this in this province with white tail deer and it wasn't that long ago.

There's not a place in BC that holds whitetail where what you described isn't possible.

As Ourea said, the landscape has seen dramatic change. Time to stop talking about "back then" and start adapting.

[blacklab]

I will agree quality hunting still exists, if you live close to where you hunt or have private land access, and lots of time.
How many kids or working young people can take unlimited time from work or school to hunt.

Whonnock, did you bother to read my post you quoted?
Do you think what is happening now is sound wildlife management?

[blacklab]

READ it all blacklab :( - Bet you WISH you had not posted this up Now ! :shock: If you want to get banned just tell them all GFY ! ( Good For You ) lol

Cheers RJ
No Jim I don't regret starting this thread at all.
It takes an hour or two for my shop to warm up in the morning so I some time on my hands.
I think it' good to get some diverse opinions some time.
So far I think it's working, Fisher Dude said I was a special fellow, and Whonnock Boy said I am a lost cause.

[Brez]

You say "trophy hunting like it's a bad term. Show me the meat hunter who shoots a "trophy" animal and is not over the moon about it. To a lot of hunters it's not about putting meat on the table. Their families may not prefer wild meat, their families may be small and not require the meat. These hunters still like to get out and hunt though. Myself, and lots of others want the meat but would like a mature animal if possible. I call these guys "selective" hunters. Different strokes. None are less than the other. I like to see "quality" animals when I go out and by quality, I mean mature. Show me the guy who can't stop talking about the 2-pt he caught a glimpse of - not there, but if they saw a monster mature buck...By the way, some of us do have a lot of time to be selective. Not a bad thing. Oh, and "trophy" and Quality" are different to everyone.
I don't mind coming home with nothing as long as I've seen lots and had opportunities. That's the way it was and not so much any more. Where I live, there were LOTS of deer one time. Now, I don't hunt deer here much if at all. I go to Alberta for my quality deer hunt. Having said that, the elk, bear, and turkey hunting here is phenomenal. Still miss the deer though.
Couple more things. I prefer to not see another hunter, other than my partner if I have one. I do not like to hear a truck, bike, or atv either. It's all part of what makes up a "quality" hunt for me.


The open doe seasons were sold as a recruitment tool...but really they are a whitetail deer cull. It was promoted as an opportunity(self interest). Short term probably has been long term not so much.
You guys selling the hunting isn't about killing. Get over it! Going hunting and not getting anything is a luxury the next generation might not be able to afford...And it is not much of a recruitment strategy!

In my opinion hunting deer is about putting meat in the freezer I don't have the luxury of coming home again and again with nothing to show......If I wanted to do that I'd be a trophy hunter!

[Whonnock Boy]

No I don't. I believe in historic mule deer ranges, w/t should be a GOS all season, either sex. In areas with mixed species where Mule deer numbers are of a concern, w/t should be a GOS all season, either sex. Thousands of kilometers of access roads need to be wiped off the map. Habitat enhancement projects throughout the province need to be done. Predator bag limits need to be increased. Funding needs to be increased for science.

Based on the stats, w/t harvest has been somewhat constant. The only difference between now, and "back then", is age class and sex, and a half million people, and pine beetle coming out of our azz, and deforestation, and conservation funding shortfalls, and access everywhere, and every tom, dick, and henry has a quad, and long range shooting, and anti hunting orgs attacking at every corner, and land claims, and climate change, and technology (gps, google maps, epirbs, cell/sat phones), and wolf pops skyrocketing, and..... and..... and......

And you're worried about the last ungulate that will remain if the shit really hits the fan??? C'mon man. Big picture.




Whonnock, did you bother to read my post you quoted?
Do you think what is happening now is sound wildlife management?

[horshur]

is it historical or hysterical???

[Xenomorph]

Dang it's a good thing you don't hunt black tails or you'd figure they were nearly extinct!

Took the words out of my mouth. :mrgreen:


I guess I screw up again!
Let me define what I consider quality hunting.
It's being able to spend a day in the bush and see enough deer so you don't feel bad if you take one.
To be able to take a kid, or new hunter out and teach them to hunt. I mean "hunt" as in still hunting, calling, sitting on a stand.
To be able to take my old friend out, help him to a stand a couple of hundred yards from the road and him have a chance to shoot a deer.
To see enough deer so this same person can decide what deer they want to take.

You can still do all that, easily, just maybe not in your backyards, that's all.



We had all this in this province with white tail deer and it wasn't that long ago.

I think that basically says everything; who cares about management or recovery of the rest -MD, elk etc- as long as the white rabbits multiply and offer shooting opportunities. With this way of thinking we should have a couple thousand ferral pigs released, just because the opportunity will be there.

[Whonnock Boy]

Ok smart guy. What do you think needs to be done?


is it historical or hysterical???

[spock]

Before the season in question started I talked to a now retired MoE staff person. He told me he was opposed to does going GOS and it was an entirely political decsion and nothing he could do about it. I'm guessing the government was throwing resident hunters a bone to soften the impact of transfering allowable harvest to guides and a bunch of gullable resident hunters that figured they were doing their part for conservation by slaughtering breeding age females took the bait. Everytime this topic comes up anyone that notices less deer in the woods is shouted down as a poor hunter, a nimby or whatever and a bunch of tired cliches about the deer have just gone nocturnal, whitetail are the most adaptable ungulate, you can shoot six deer a year in texas, pennsylvania etc why not here, you need to harvest all age classes for a healthy herd. I don't think I've seen one post on this website in the last 3 years with anyone stating they were seeing more whitetail, in fact I've seen many comments from posters that had no trouble filling whitey tags in the past saying it's the worst year they've seen in 10, 20 or 30 years. As to the points commonly brought up to justify this season.
1. Harvest across all age class; There were 300 doe lehs in 8-12 and 8-14 before it went to GOS. We did not need to open up a GOS on does to achieve this, it was being done before albeit in a controlled fashion.
2. Comparison to eastern us states to B.C. is like comparing apples to oranges. Most land in those states is private putting another limit beside hunting regulation on pressure. Those states have a lot of agriculture, and a gentler landscape allowing for higher carrying capacities and recruitment. Less predators and little to no FN factor. Maybe we should compare ourselves to Washington state, or Montana last time I checked seasons on whitetail were no where as liberal as up here.
3. We are going to save the mule deer. Whitetail have expanded because of changes to the landscape if this were not the case they would have beat the white man to B.C. Eradicating one deer species to save one that cannot exist at the levels it once did is going to ultimately lead to less hunter opportunity and by that I mean not just a legal opening but actually seeing game while you are out there and not just hunting invisible deer.
I was part of a group lobbying to have this season ended and I would do it again no question. The primary reason goes back to my first sentence it was a political not a scientific decision.

[Salty]

^ A one month one doe season is eradicating? Give me a fakin break. I talked to a guy the other day too he was a retired trucker.

[Ourea]

I am tuning out of this thread.
It is another example of the level of ignorance displayed by us as hunters.

As long as we continue to look at the world thru a tiny hole in the fence many will only see their little view and refute decades of science and studies.
The i'm right, the science is wrong argument.......wtf seriously!?

Can't believe some of us are allowed to vote.

[labguy]

Too much reliance on science has been mans downfall in many an instance. Many many examples have shown that the best science of the day is often incorrect.

Tracks don't lie. I've been hunting whitetail in BC for 50 years. The quality of the hunt, both in terms of numbers and antlers has gone seriously downhill except for a few honey holes......mostly on private land.

Ourea, I believe you've been to my place on the Commonage a few years back with Coach who was buying tire chains from me. I've been living here since the early eighties. This was a world class whitetail area. I could count 80 plus deer every night in the neighbors alfalfa field. There were quality bucks galore. I know all the spots on this range.

This year, I've seen about 20 does in total and three or four dink bucks. Now that the snow is here, I go on my daily walks and see almost no track.

My partner who used to guide around Carmi and hunts every year since said this is the worst year he's ever seen in 30 years of hunting that area. Probably just another crappy hunter who doesn't put the time and effort into it.

Maybe the deer have all gone nocturnal........yeah right. Tracks don't lie.

I wont drink the science cool aid any longer. I call bullshit.........

[Ourea]

If ever we suffered an apocalyptic event three things would probably survive and still thrive....
Cock roaches
My in-laws
Whitetail deer

[Ourea]

My partner who used to guide around Carmi and hunts every year since said this is the worst year he's ever seen in 30 years of hunting that area. Probably just another crappy hunter who doesn't put the time and effort into it.

Funny, we took 6 WT out of that area with little effort

[Salty]

If ever we suffered an apocalyptic event three things would probably survive and still thrive....
Cock roaches
My in-laws
Whitetail deer

You forgot hard wired contrarians ignoring every bit of evidence, history and study on a subject because they're smarter than all that and have it cased.

[Ourea]

You forgot hard wired contrarians ignoring every bit of evidence, history and study on a subject because they're smarter than all that and have it cased.

They are usually the first to go....

[GoatGuy]

Before the season in question started I talked to a now retired MoE staff person. He told me he was opposed to does going GOS and it was an entirely political decsion and nothing he could do about it.


These are some of my HBC favorites.

What kind of credentials did that 'retired' MoE staff person have?

[whognu]

If ever we suffered an apocalyptic event three things would probably survive and still thrive....
Cock roaches
My in-laws
Whitetail deer


classic, well done

[blacklab]

spock
Good post, careful they'll start calling you names too.
People should also consider the southern interior white tail have little or no commercial value.
How many guided whitetail hunts can an outfitter sell in the southern interior?
I agree they were a bone thrown to the resident hunter to keep the harvest numbers up.

[blacklab]

Now boys and girls I'll say again if you don't want to look at this thread, don't look Ethel!
This is not grade 6 English class, it's not compulsory reading and there won't be a quiz on Friday!

[labguy]

The point is that given the history of the gross mismanagement of wildlife in this province in my lifetime, I have ZERO faith in anything the MOE puts forth as " good science".

The other problem lies in individual perception. Every person who arrives on this planet thinks that what's here is the normal. They have no basis of comparison to what it was like twenty years before they were here.

So, to one person, newely arrived on the hunting scene, there's "lots of game, just need to put the effort in, put the boots on the ground, deer have gone nocturnal, blah blah blah", to the other person it's a pittance of what once was.

And I don't give a shit how many deer you shot down there, it's a fraction of the number and quality of deer that were there a few years back. Anyone whose been hunting that area for the last 40 or so years will tell you the same thing I'm telling you. There are still good bucks to be had but there is a fraction of what there once was.

And speaking of " good science" what happened to that small herd of Caribou near Mica that the MOE, in its infinite, science based wisdom, decided that killing off all the Moose in that area would cause the wolves to move on and not bother the Caribou.......how'd that all work out?

[labguy]

I've also heard that these Whitetail have evolved to the point that they're able to move around above the ground so as to not leave any track......highly adaptable......

[Ourea]

I have ZERO faith in anything the MOE puts forth as " good science".


To be clear, when some refer to science, they are not being specific to the MOE.
Thousands and thousands of researchers have studied WT deer to death all over North America
There are endless books written on the species.
The data is endless.

Now, in defense of what you are saying, I am sure that the doe season has had a negative impact on overall numbers in some areas. I learned early on that every area has it's nuances.
The doe season has definitely had an impact on behavior ......that's a given.

Here's something to ponder........
Our hands down best WT spot was continually showing awesome bucks and consistent numbers.
It was an off the radar spot.
One access point.
Never saw a vehicle ..... never saw a boot track.
There are no roads other than the access point.
Hunting pressure was a none factor.

The area literally dried up over two years to the point we pulled all our cams out and focused elsewhere.
Oh, and this happened 3 yrs before the WT doe season.

[HighCountryBC]

If you want to talk about how good the hunting was "back then" maybe you should also mention the wide open seasons and thousands of more hunters "back then" as well...

How is it that we used to have even more liberal seasons with nearly twice as many hunters and had wildlife populations flourish but now whitetails, the most resilient ungulate in North America, can't handle a month long doe season?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Not sure what's up with the 'lab' component of usernames?

[Dannybuoy]

Too much reliance on science has been mans downfall in many an instance. Many many examples have shown that the best science of the day is often incorrect.

Tracks don't lie. I've been hunting whitetail in BC for 50 years. The quality of the hunt, both in terms of numbers and antlers has gone seriously downhill except for a few honey holes......mostly on private land.

Ourea, I believe you've been to my place on the Commonage a few years back with Coach who was buying tire chains from me. I've been living here since the early eighties. This was a world class whitetail area. I could count 80 plus deer every night in the neighbors alfalfa field. There were quality bucks galore. I know all the spots on this range.

This year, I've seen about 20 does in total and three or four dink bucks. Now that the snow is here, I go on my daily walks and see almost no track.

My partner who used to guide around Carmi and hunts every year since said this is the worst year he's ever seen in 30 years of hunting that area. Probably just another crappy hunter who doesn't put the time and effort into it.

Maybe the deer have all gone nocturnal........yeah right. Tracks don't lie.

I wont drink the science cool aid any longer. I call bullshit.........

Curious what you would credit the decline in whitetails on the commonage to ? It probably has a lot less hunting pressure in the last 10 years (cuz I'm not there :smile:) Its just about all private property .

[GoatGuy]

The point is that given the history of the gross mismanagement of wildlife in this province in my lifetime, I have ZERO faith in anything the MOE puts forth as " good science".

The other problem lies in individual perception. Every person who arrives on this planet thinks that what's here is the normal. They have no basis of comparison to what it was like twenty years before they were here.

So, to one person, newely arrived on the hunting scene, there's "lots of game, just need to put the effort in, put the boots on the ground, deer have gone nocturnal, blah blah blah", to the other person it's a pittance of what once was.

And I don't give a shit how many deer you shot down there, it's a fraction of the number and quality of deer that were there a few years back. Anyone whose been hunting that area for the last 40 or so years will tell you the same thing I'm telling you. There are still good bucks to be had but there is a fraction of what there once was.

And speaking of " good science" what happened to that small herd of Caribou near Mica that the MOE, in its infinite, science based wisdom, decided that killing off all the Moose in that area would cause the wolves to move on and not bother the Caribou.......how'd that all work out?


That's the trouble with the 'baseline'.

If you look back 40 years ago you will see habitat that looks nothing like what it does today.

You will not find wolves on the landscape.

You will not find wildlife exclusion fencing.

You will talk to old time outfitters that said it would sometimes take a week or more to find a cougar track - now some houndsmen can run a cougar every day and they cut tracks all the time.

You will find fewer highway collisions.

You will also find way more mule deer.

You will also find places in Region 8, Region 3, and Region 5 that now have WT and never did back then.

So, no, it isn't the same and everyone has a different baseline. Times are changing and quite frankly so are the deer.

For the people who have been hunting the thick stuff things haven't changed. We've always hunted areas with thick regen (where there's browse) or old stands without roads - one or maybe two shooting lanes which are 20-50 yards. The hunting has not changed for us, but recognize it has in areas where sightability is high.

Are you going to get hunting in 8-12 and 8-14 like you had in the 70s, 80s or 90s? No, it's simply not going to happen. Even a blind man could see how poor condition the winter range is but it seems most hunters seem to have no idea how bad it really is. "Just put more deer, like it was 40 years ago," on a chunk of ground with a fraction of the productivity isn't realistic. Running deer up near carrying capacity makes no sense at all either.

You might get hunting like the last 10 years, but given the condition of range and the recolonization of wolves you can probably expect your 'best days' to be behind you.

40 years ago BC had it good, but over time things changed. Until the 70s you had a widespread predator management program, wolves were off the landscape, cougars by and large were also, grizzlies had been removed from the majority of 'wt deer areas', you had controlled burns, hangover from burns in the 30s, fewer highway mortalities, less habitat fragmentation and range which was way more suitable to ungulate production then it is today.

Changing hunting regulations won't solve those issues. Sure you can cancel the doe season for wt deer, and you might see more in your old 'hot spots' in the short-term, but you will continue to see mule deer, elk, moose, and habitat suffer and in the long-run you'll end up worse than when you started. You have probably already seen it.

Find it unreal how myopic the view is from 40 years ago. Yes, you had it great, but right now you're holding a turd because people just thought changing the regulations would solve their issues. Nobody advocated for the resource and over time BC went from the best place to hunt in North America to a pittance of its former self.

Changing the regs didn't fix elk in the Ek, didn't fix moose in the EK, didn't fix MD in the EK, didn't fix deer in the WK, didn't fix mule deer in the boundary, didn't fix moose in the central interior, and didn't fix deer on VI. Didn't really fix much of anything - but it sure must have felt good.

Folks need to start thinking about the big picture.

We're treating our landscape like a christmas tree farm and starving our fish and wildlife programs at the same time. It doesn't matter what you do with hunting regulations - the outcome 40 years ago is the same as the last 40 years: LESS WILDLIFE.

Hunting regs didn't solve your problems in the past and it won't in the future.

So let's talk about the doe seasons, and the any buck season while we're at it, and continue the short-term view on the long-term downward slide.

It never worked before so we should definitely try it again.

[Whonnock Boy]

Someone is talking nonsense.... :lol:

[spock]

regional biologist

[LeverActionJunkie]

That's the trouble with the 'baseline'.

If you look back 40 years ago you will see habitat that looks nothing like what it does today.

You will not find wolves on the landscape.

You will not find wildlife exclusion fencing.

You will talk to old time outfitters that said it would sometimes take a week or more to find a cougar track - now some houndsmen can run a cougar every day and they cut tracks all the time.

You will find fewer highway collisions.

You will also find way more mule deer.

You will also find places in Region 8, Region 3, and Region 5 that now have WT and never did back then.

So, no, it isn't the same and everyone has a different baseline. Times are changing and quite frankly so are the deer.

For the people who have been hunting the thick stuff things haven't changed. We've always hunted areas with thick regen (where there's browse) or old stands without roads - one or maybe two shooting lanes which are 20-50 yards. The hunting has not changed for us, but recognize it has in areas where sightability is high.

Are you going to get hunting in 8-12 and 8-14 like you had in the 70s, 80s or 90s? No, it's simply not going to happen. Even a blind man could see how poor condition the winter range is but it seems most hunters seem to have no idea how bad it really is. "Just put more deer, like it was 40 years ago," on a chunk of ground with a fraction of the productivity isn't realistic. Running deer up near carrying capacity makes no sense at all either.

You might get hunting like the last 10 years, but given the condition of range and the recolonization of wolves you can probably expect your 'best days' to be behind you.

40 years ago BC had it good, but over time things changed. Until the 70s you had a widespread predator management program, wolves were off the landscape, cougars by and large were also, grizzlies had been removed from the majority of 'wt deer areas', you had controlled burns, hangover from burns in the 30s, fewer highway mortalities, less habitat fragmentation and range which was way more suitable to ungulate production then it is today.

Changing hunting regulations won't solve those issues. Sure you can cancel the doe season for wt deer, and you might see more in your old 'hot spots' in the short-term, but you will continue to see mule deer, elk, moose, and habitat suffer and in the long-run you'll end up worse than when you started. You have probably already seen it.

Find it unreal how myopic the view is from 40 years ago. Yes, you had it great, but right now you're holding a turd because people just thought changing the regulations would solve their issues. Nobody advocated for the resource and over time BC went from the best place to hunt in North America to a pittance of its former self.

Changing the regs didn't fix elk in the Ek, didn't fix moose in the EK, didn't fix MD in the EK, didn't fix deer in the WK, didn't fix mule deer in the boundary, didn't fix moose in the central interior, and didn't fix deer on VI. Didn't really fix much of anything - but it sure must have felt good.

Folks need to start thinking about the big picture.

We're treating our landscape like a christmas tree farm and starving our fish and wildlife programs at the same time. It doesn't matter what you do with hunting regulations - the outcome 40 years ago is the same as the last 40 years: LESS WILDLIFE.

Hunting regs didn't solve your problems in the past and it won't in the future.

So let's talk about the doe seasons, and the any buck season while we're at it, and continue the short-term view on the long-term downward slide.

It never worked before so we should definitely try it again.

Thank you for wonderfully summing up my thoughts on not only this thread, but the state of wildlife & habitat management in this province. I knew I couldn't be the only one.

The whole time I've followed this thread my reoccurring thought has been "Think of how pissed everyone's gonna be in 5-10 yrs from now." The provinces forests have been raped by forest companies and polices suited to please them forever, no big deal till the beetle killed all the pine and it turned into a free for all to try and mill as much pine as possible before it was gone. Guess what? It's pretty well gone, and by that I mean readily harvestable pine stands. The amount of mature fir blocks I see being laid out and or harvested is alarming to me. But as a timber cruiser I know put it "There's nothing left, and the govt ain't gonna let those jobs go till there's no choice". Again if we look back 40yrs it's not as big a deal, but I've contracted in quite a few mills and I don't remember the last one that wasn't doin 1million board feet a day or much more.

Like has been said we pissed it away worrying about hunter success rates and seasons/limits instead of rallying for habitat. In the 30's they found without habitat, there's almost no ducks, provide habitat, grow ducks. For any #of reasons ungulates and other big game are expected to flourish because we only harvest bucks or have limited seasons.

Sorry that post really needs some paragraphs and probably some grammer but I gotta put kids to bed

[labguy]

Curious what you would credit the decline in whitetails on the commonage to ? It probably has a lot less hunting pressure in the last 10 years (cuz I'm not there :smile:) Its just about all private property .

I truly don't know for sure. There are lots of local people who sneak deer by trespass and a few that shoot off the roads ( also illegal).

The illegal guys used to shoot bucks but since the doe seasons came into effect I expect there is a lot more pressure on anything that moves. I hear lots of shooting from my back door from September to the end of November.

There doesn't appear to be more predators. Very seldom do you see a cat track and the coyote population is kept in check by the ranchers.

The decline , from my myopic perspective, has coincided precisely with the advent of liberal GOS on does. No science behind this but based on personal observation living here, day in and day out, for 30 plus years.

[spock]

the outcome 40 years ago is the same as the last 40 years: LESS WILDLIFE

So lets kill of our breeding age females and whack any buck that has the potential to grow antlers like the pictures at the beginning of this thread so we can get enough meat off them to fit in an empty beer case. If hunting regulations aren't the problem why don't we have GOS on moose elk and mule deer if we did that it would spread the pressure around. Heres some science for all you doe season supporters. Dead does don't have fawns. Funny when I wrote my letter to minister Thompson about the guide allocation, his reply pointed out that his government had actually created more hunting opportunities specifically citing the whitetail doe GOS. Like I said you guys took the bait and are hanging on for dear life to the one morsel the government threw you, even if it comes at the expense of our deer herd.

[LBM]

That's the trouble with the 'baseline'.

If you look back 40 years ago you will see habitat that looks nothing like what it does today.

You will not find wolves on the landscape.

You will not find wildlife exclusion fencing.

You will talk to old time outfitters that said it would sometimes take a week or more to find a cougar track - now some houndsmen can run a cougar every day and they cut tracks all the time.

You will find fewer highway collisions.

You will also find way more mule deer.

You will also find places in Region 8, Region 3, and Region 5 that now have WT and never did back then.

So, no, it isn't the same and everyone has a different baseline. Times are changing and quite frankly so are the deer.

For the people who have been hunting the thick stuff things haven't changed. We've always hunted areas with thick regen (where there's browse) or old stands without roads - one or maybe two shooting lanes which are 20-50 yards. The hunting has not changed for us, but recognize it has in areas where sightability is high.

Are you going to get hunting in 8-12 and 8-14 like you had in the 70s, 80s or 90s? No, it's simply not going to happen. Even a blind man could see how poor condition the winter range is but it seems most hunters seem to have no idea how bad it really is. "Just put more deer, like it was 40 years ago," on a chunk of ground with a fraction of the productivity isn't realistic. Running deer up near carrying capacity makes no sense at all either.

You might get hunting like the last 10 years, but given the condition of range and the recolonization of wolves you can probably expect your 'best days' to be behind you.

40 years ago BC had it good, but over time things changed. Until the 70s you had a widespread predator management program, wolves were off the landscape, cougars by and large were also, grizzlies had been removed from the majority of 'wt deer areas', you had controlled burns, hangover from burns in the 30s, fewer highway mortalities, less habitat fragmentation and range which was way more suitable to ungulate production then it is today.

Changing hunting regulations won't solve those issues. Sure you can cancel the doe season for wt deer, and you might see more in your old 'hot spots' in the short-term, but you will continue to see mule deer, elk, moose, and habitat suffer and in the long-run you'll end up worse than when you started. You have probably already seen it.

Find it unreal how myopic the view is from 40 years ago. Yes, you had it great, but right now you're holding a turd because people just thought changing the regulations would solve their issues. Nobody advocated for the resource and over time BC went from the best place to hunt in North America to a pittance of its former self.

Changing the regs didn't fix elk in the Ek, didn't fix moose in the EK, didn't fix MD in the EK, didn't fix deer in the WK, didn't fix mule deer in the boundary, didn't fix moose in the central interior, and didn't fix deer on VI. Didn't really fix much of anything - but it sure must have felt good.

Folks need to start thinking about the big picture.

We're treating our landscape like a christmas tree farm and starving our fish and wildlife programs at the same time. It doesn't matter what you do with hunting regulations - the outcome 40 years ago is the same as the last 40 years: LESS WILDLIFE.

Hunting regs didn't solve your problems in the past and it won't in the future.

So let's talk about the doe seasons, and the any buck season while we're at it, and continue the short-term view on the long-term downward slide.

It never worked before so we should definitely try it again.

So were you around 40 yrs ago to witness any of this or just going on what others say.

[GoatGuy]

regional biologist

One that could do wildlife inventory, both do the aerial and write it up, understand research design, harvest statistics, herd composition, population dynamics and understand the difference between social and wildlife issues?

Or one that fudged LEHs based on a whim, and used the word 'conservation concern' when the fundamentals of wildlife management were 'over the head'?

If it's the second, best thing is to get a different source.

[GoatGuy]

So lets kill of our breeding age females and whack any buck that has the potential to grow antlers like the pictures at the beginning of this thread so we can get enough meat off them to fit in an empty beer case. If hunting regulations aren't the problem why don't we have GOS on moose elk and mule deer if we did that it would spread the pressure around. Heres some science for all you doe season supporters. Dead does don't have fawns.

Good summary of the 40 year problem.

[GoatGuy]

So were you around 40 yrs ago to witness any of this or just going on what others say.


Going off pictures, harvest stats, age records, reports, and what others have to say - but reputable folks..........

[labguy]

That's the trouble with the 'baseline'.

If you look back 40 years ago you will see habitat that looks nothing like what it does today.

You will not find wolves on the landscape.

You will not find wildlife exclusion fencing.

You will talk to old time outfitters that said it would sometimes take a week or more to find a cougar track - now some houndsmen can run a cougar every day and they cut tracks all the time.

You will find fewer highway collisions.

You will also find way more mule deer.

You will also find places in Region 8, Region 3, and Region 5 that now have WT and never did back then.

So, no, it isn't the same and everyone has a different baseline. Times are changing and quite frankly so are the deer.

For the people who have been hunting the thick stuff things haven't changed. We've always hunted areas with thick regen (where there's browse) or old stands without roads - one or maybe two shooting lanes which are 20-50 yards. The hunting has not changed for us, but recognize it has in areas where sightability is high.

Are you going to get hunting in 8-12 and 8-14 like you had in the 70s, 80s or 90s? No, it's simply not going to happen. Even a blind man could see how poor condition the winter range is but it seems most hunters seem to have no idea how bad it really is. "Just put more deer, like it was 40 years ago," on a chunk of ground with a fraction of the productivity isn't realistic. Running deer up near carrying capacity makes no sense at all either.

You might get hunting like the last 10 years, but given the condition of range and the recolonization of wolves you can probably expect your 'best days' to be behind you.

40 years ago BC had it good, but over time things changed. Until the 70s you had a widespread predator management program, wolves were off the landscape, cougars by and large were also, grizzlies had been removed from the majority of 'wt deer areas', you had controlled burns, hangover from burns in the 30s, fewer highway mortalities, less habitat fragmentation and range which was way more suitable to ungulate production then it is today.

Changing hunting regulations won't solve those issues. Sure you can cancel the doe season for wt deer, and you might see more in your old 'hot spots' in the short-term, but you will continue to see mule deer, elk, moose, and habitat suffer and in the long-run you'll end up worse than when you started. You have probably already seen it.

Find it unreal how myopic the view is from 40 years ago. Yes, you had it great, but right now you're holding a turd because people just thought changing the regulations would solve their issues. Nobody advocated for the resource and over time BC went from the best place to hunt in North America to a pittance of its former self.

Changing the regs didn't fix elk in the Ek, didn't fix moose in the EK, didn't fix MD in the EK, didn't fix deer in the WK, didn't fix mule deer in the boundary, didn't fix moose in the central interior, and didn't fix deer on VI. Didn't really fix much of anything - but it sure must have felt good.

Folks need to start thinking about the big picture.

We're treating our landscape like a christmas tree farm and starving our fish and wildlife programs at the same time. It doesn't matter what you do with hunting regulations - the outcome 40 years ago is the same as the last 40 years: LESS WILDLIFE.

Hunting regs didn't solve your problems in the past and it won't in the future.

So let's talk about the doe seasons, and the any buck season while we're at it, and continue the short-term view on the long-term downward slide.

It never worked before so we should definitely try it again.

Excellent post. i agree with most of it.

It's never going to get better as long as fish and wildlife are at the bottom of the budgetary barrel.

Until the political will is there the future isn't looking too bright.

[GoatGuy]

Excellent post. i agree with most of it.

It's never going to get better as long as fish and wildlife are at the bottom of the budgetary barrel.

Until the political will is there the future isn't looking too bright.

The only hunters will get political will is by creating it.

[labguy]

The only hunters will get political will is by creating it.

So where does this will get created? BCWF? What is wrong with creating a strong political lobby through this organization???? It works for the GOABC.

[Ourea]

So where does this will get created? BCWF? What is wrong with creating a strong political lobby through this organization???? It works for the GOABC.

Here's a shocker.
While many sit here in the weeds arguing endlessly about regulation this....mismanagement that.....back in the day...
Sweet baby Jesus people .......it will never fix the challenges wildlife face.

There is a plan in place and a funding model to support it.
Hopefully it comes to fruition.

Once the knuckle draggers understand they need to pull their head out of the mud and look at how to fix the bigger problem, we might just get somewhere.
Wildlife conversation needs $$$

[Ourea]

I am not directing this following iconic comment to anyone on HBC.
But it does summarize the ignorance of our culture and attitude as hunters.


"Death, you never know when you have died.
Only those around you take notice.
It's just like being stupid"

[LeverActionJunkie]

It probably won't labguy. Unlike our cousins to the south, we never exterminated our game species to the brink with market hunting. Almost completely losing their game, I believe, gave them a much greater appreciation of and dedication to the sport of hunting and game it relies on. It's pretty rare in my experience to see people here dedicated to conservation of game & habitat. It's much more common to see an attitude of expectation that an individual deserves his share and or opportunity for more. I'll bet for example you'd find it much easier to find 100sqkms without road access in western states than you could from pg south to the border. Those lands in the states where set aside by sportsmen pressuring their govt to preserve the places and species they enjoy.

[GoatGuy]

It probably won't labguy. Unlike our cousins to the south, we never exterminated our game species to the brink with market hunting. Almost completely losing their game, I believe, gave them a much greater appreciation of and dedication to the sport of hunting and game it relies on. It's pretty rare in my experience to see people here dedicated to conservation of game & habitat. It's much more common to see an attitude of expectation that an individual deserves his share and or opportunity for more. I'll bet for example you'd find it much easier to find 100sqkms without road access in western states than you could from pg south to the border. Those lands in the states where set aside by sportsmen pressuring their govt to preserve the places and species they enjoy.
This is good stuff.

agree apathy an issue....

[LBM]

Here's a shocker.
While many sit here in the weeds arguing endlessly about regulation this....mismanagement that.....back in the day...
Sweet baby Jesus people .......it will never fix the challenges wildlife face.

There is a plan in place and a funding model to support it.
Hopefully it comes to fruition.

Once the knuckle draggers understand they need to pull their head out of the mud and look at how to fix the bigger problem, we might just get somewhere.
Wildlife conversation needs $$$
So were can some one see this plan and funding model to support it and which organization is running it.
Yes wildlife conservation needs help, can you give some names of organizations that are truly out there for conservation purposes.
Thanks

[labguy]

Here's a shocker.
While many sit here in the weeds arguing endlessly about regulation this....mismanagement that.....back in the day...
Sweet baby Jesus people .......it will never fix the challenges wildlife face.

There is a plan in place and a funding model to support it.
Hopefully it comes to fruition.

Once the knuckle draggers understand they need to pull their head out of the mud and look at how to fix the bigger problem, we might just get somewhere.
Wildlife conversation needs $$$

You are right. I look foreward to the plan. We sure do need one.

[spock]

The regional bio that I talked to is a reputable guy. Why couldn't you respond to the original point that the doe GOS was a political decision not a scientific one without trying to divert to character assasination.

[HarryToolips]

the outcome 40 years ago is the same as the last 40 years: LESS WILDLIFE

So lets kill of our breeding age females and whack any buck that has the potential to grow antlers like the pictures at the beginning of this thread so we can get enough meat off them to fit in an empty beer case. If hunting regulations aren't the problem why don't we have GOS on moose elk and mule deer if we did that it would spread the pressure around. Heres some science for all you doe season supporters. Dead does don't have fawns. Funny when I wrote my letter to minister Thompson about the guide allocation, his reply pointed out that his government had actually created more hunting opportunities specifically citing the whitetail doe GOS. Like I said you guys took the bait and are hanging on for dear life to the one morsel the government threw you, even if it comes at the expense of our deer herd.
We don't have a GOS season on female moose, elk and MD because they are a completely different animal...read the science behind proper WT management - it's ok to educate yourself....remember folks: if it wasn't for science, we'd still be cave men...

[REMINGTON JIM]

Holy Phuck ! Theres a Bunch on here who really know SFA ! :shock: and some that know a BIT ! :-( But NOBODY ! :eek: (INCLUDING MYSELF) on here really knows what to do about the LOW deer population problem ! :-( jmo BUT ? What are we going to do ? RJ

[Chopper]

In the U.S , Lots of M.U's are LEH for bucks ... which sucks... But look at the quality of bucks that get shot in places like Utah. You pull a Utah mule draw, they drive by 180 bucks like they are dinks. 280 inch bucks getting shot down there. Its unreal.

The groups of bachelor bucks are a sight to be seen ...

[Drillbit]

Holy Phuck ! Theres a Bunch on here who really know SFA ! :shock: and some that know a BIT ! :-( But NOBODY ! :eek: (INCLUDING MYSELF) on here really knows what to do about the LOW deer population problem ! :-( jmo BUT ? What are we going to do ? RJ

Stop shooting does, stop shooting young bucks. Start shooting black bears, start shooting coyotes, apply for grizzley LEH, be ready to shoot a wolf if you see one when you're out and about. I'm sure somebody will say I'm wrong,but to me that's the best as a regular Joe can do to maybe make a small difference.

I think habitat is a big part of the problem.

I dunno either tho RJ, I just can make an educated guess.

[blacklab]

The regional bio that I talked to is a reputable guy. Why couldn't you respond to the original point that the doe GOS was a political decision not a scientific one without trying to divert to character assasination.

It's the way it goes on this site. If people start to voice there concerns about deer populations, the elite circle the wagons, and start name calling.
Then say MOE needs more money, and join the BCWF and all will be well.
I spent 25 years as a MOE employee and belonged to the federation most of my life. I don't think either organization really gives a sh-- about resident hunters anymore.
As long as there is a problem, they will sing the same tune, give us more staff and more money and we'll fix it.
If there isn't a problem then they'll create one.
White tail deer were doing just fine till MOE decided to experiment and create a problem resident hunters are going to have to live with.

[GoatGuy]

The regional bio that I talked to is a reputable guy. Why couldn't you respond to the original point that the doe GOS was a political decision not a scientific one without trying to divert to character assasination.
Because it wasn't a political decision.

secondly, the quality of information and 'reputability' is all about the source. There are/were some great bios, but there were also a couple that were not technically competent. If you get your info from a bad source you get bad information. That simple.

[GoatGuy]

In the U.S , Lots of M.U's are LEH for bucks ... which sucks... But look at the quality of bucks that get shot in places like Utah. You pull a Utah mule draw, they drive by 180 bucks like they are dinks. 280 inch bucks getting shot down there. Its unreal.

The groups of bachelor bucks are a sight to be seen ...


Utah has spent hundreds of millions on habitat restoration, wildlife underpasses, predator management etc.

Size is a quarter of BC, fraction of the diversity and a budget of $85m/year. BC budget is $20m if you pool it all together.

[horshur]

First off I don't believe the current regs are hurting whitetails........But I am totally stumped at the short arm guys who didn't see this coming. Reduce a herd of huntable animals and make them harder to hunt and people complain.....duhh.

[Elk-Aholic]

Start shooting black bears, start shooting coyotes, apply for grizzley LEH, be ready to shoot a wolf if you see one when you're out and about. I'm sure somebody will say I'm wrong,but to me that's the best as a regular Joe can do to maybe make a small difference.

I think habitat is a big part of the problem..

Finally, someone hits the nail on the head! Predator management starts with us hunters. We are the first line of defense and the easiest way to put a dent in those populations, and those GOS seasons are so liberal that there are no excuses. Funny we killed 121 coyotes one winter, funny how the deer population flourished in that area.....

Habiat enhancement, protection, and expanding winter range are beyond the obvious! Huge huge chunk of the pie and the forces are working on protecting vital areas as well as restricting access and road removal. Wildlife should come first, then us second if we want our kids to be able to hunt any creature in the future.

[Whonnock Boy]

Another criticism, and nothing about what you would do with the current regulations. You're so smart, and I'm curious what you have to say.


First off I don't believe the current regs are hurting whitetails........But I am totally stumped at the short arm guys who didn't see this coming. Reduce a herd of huntable animals and make them harder to hunt and people complain.....duhh.

[Piperdown]

Boy hunting season must be over already :mrgreen:

[bearvalley]

Utah has spent hundreds of millions on habitat restoration, wildlife underpasses, predator management etc.

Size is a quarter of BC, fraction of the diversity and a budget of $85m/year. BC budget is $20m if you pool it all together.

Utah has been a success story in growing wildlife.
Should we get Don Peay to give us some advice on growing more here?

[Husky7mm]

Its stands to reason that if hunting can affect the age class of what ever is GOS, it can affect the total population if it is GOS, or has very liberal leh tags.
A lot of talk about science, what about math? The elk numbers, whitetail numbers and the mulie bucks all dropped considerably when the seasons got loose and liberal in the EK, and that is a fact. Meanwhile there have been controlled burns, fires, mechanical thinning, numbers continue to drop and much of the enhanced habitat has not been recolonized. Are people actually seeing way more wolves than 5-8 yrs ago, has the harvest gone up on them?
I believe hunting has a much bigger effect on the game populations than people think, I also believe there was less ungulates than they estimated and the corrections for unsighted, uncounted ungulates are flawed. What has changed in the last 10-15 years is technology and access, both have tipped the scale to have a negative impact on the game population, and the access in favour of the wolf.
I also run many cams year round and I am certain that I have every whitetail doe in the area visiting them, if a few of them were shot it would be notable, if a large group of hunters came along and shot 6 or 8 of them that spot would be pretty much finished for a good number of years. With today's mentality those hunters think they are doing everyone including the whitetail a favour. I am all for reducing the whitetail somewhat IF it has a positive effect on mule deer but a line needs to be drawn so we don't have all these peaks and valleys. I said it before and still believe it, hunter "opportunity " will cost hunters their opportunity. People need to learn to be happy with 1 or 2 animals a year.

[GoatGuy]

Utah has been a success story in growing wildlife.
Should we get Don Peay to give us some advice on growing more here?

Lol, we have, just a matter of opening some ears.

Seems lots of 'ppl' have heard his message, but very few do anything about it........ (not a shot at you)

[GoatGuy]

Its stands to reason that if hunting can affect the age class of what ever is GOS, it can affect the total population if it is GOS, or has very liberal leh tags.
A lot of talk about science, what about math? The elk numbers, whitetail numbers and the mulie bucks all dropped considerably when the seasons got loose and liberal in the EK, and that is a fact. Meanwhile there have been controlled burns, fires, mechanical thinning, numbers continue to drop and much of the enhanced habitat has not been recolonized. Are people actually seeing way more wolves than 5-8 yrs ago, has the harvest gone up on them?
I believe hunting has a much bigger effect on the game populations than people think, I also believe there was less ungulates than they estimated and the corrections for unsighted, uncounted ungulates are flawed. What has changed in the last 10-15 years is technology and access, both have tipped the scale to have a negative impact on the game population, and the access in favour of the wolf.
I also run many cams year round and I am certain that I have every whitetail doe in the area visiting them, if a few of them were shot it would be notable, if a large group of hunters came along and shot 6 or 8 of them that spot would be pretty much finished for a good number of years. With today's mentality those hunters think they are doing everyone including the whitetail a favour. I am all for reducing the whitetail somewhat IF it has a positive effect on mule deer but a line needs to be drawn so we don't have all these peaks and valleys. I said it before and still believe it, hunter "opportunity " will cost hunters their opportunity. People need to learn to be happy with 1 or 2 animals a year.

When the data rolls in on elk valley elk and wolves the conversation will change.

[Buckmeister]

Stop shooting does, stop shooting young bucks. Start shooting black bears, start shooting coyotes, apply for grizzley LEH, be ready to shoot a wolf if you see one when you're out and about. I'm sure somebody will say I'm wrong,but to me that's the best as a regular Joe can do to maybe make a small difference.

I think habitat is a big part of the problem.


You forgot to mention cougar. Shoot the kitties too.

[LeverActionJunkie]

Just learning about Don Peay and must say I'm embarrassed that I didn't already know more about him. First bit of this article has some info on things he was able to institute and accomplish. I realize it's not about Whitetails but if those gains can be made with sheep it can be done with any species.
http://www.fullcurl.org/assests/Karl_Malones_Story.pdf

Really quite impressive what people can do when the motivation is sufficient.

[spock]

What makes you a more credible source than the regional bio. Whether or not you agree with his competence or not a ministerial order overuling those charged with managing game at a regional level is a political decision. I seriously have to question your credibility and competence. You are claiming on one had that we have more predator, highway and other issues causing more mortality of our game herds and that somehow the remedy to this or a benign move is having open seasons on the breeding age females. Its pretty simple math really if the mortality by whatever source, dead is dead occurs faster than recruitment you are going to get a declining population of whatever animal.

[Ourea]

What makes you a more credible source than the regional bio. Whether or not you agree with his competence or not a ministerial order overuling those charged with managing game at a regional level is a political decision. I seriously have to question your credibility and competence. You are claiming on one had that we have more predator, highway and other issues causing more mortality of our game herds and that somehow the remedy to this or a benign move is having open seasons on the breeding age females. Its pretty simple math really if the mortality by whatever source, dead is dead occurs faster than recruitment you are going to get a declining population of whatever animal.

With the exception of WT
They are unique.

They are the only non predator that remains healthy and can continue to thrive in most areas of BC despite the ever changing landscape and harvest.

[Dannybuoy]

You forgot to mention cougar. Shoot the kitties too.

Wow ! I hope this is sarcasm !

[GoatGuy]

What makes you a more credible source than the regional bio. Whether or not you agree with his competence or not a ministerial order overuling those charged with managing game at a regional level is a political decision. I seriously have to question your credibility and competence. You are claiming on one had that we have more predator, highway and other issues causing more mortality of our game herds and that somehow the remedy to this or a benign move is having open seasons on the breeding age females. Its pretty simple math really if the mortality by whatever source, dead is dead occurs faster than recruitment you are going to get a declining population of whatever animal.

From my perspective managing wt below carrying capacity makes a lot of sense.

In a nutshell: because you have garbage winter range, which is degrading and has been for 40+ years. And you have increased predator loading and resulting negative impacts on mule deer and other wildlife species. The issues with moose in other parts of NA have also been linked to brain worm which comes with WT. It also makes sense to try to limit their distribution as there are other values/species on the landscape --- not to mention mountain caribou. Also wtd are far more cryptic and resilient than other species and are much more suited to handle high harvest rates.

So that is not a political decision, that is a multi-use decision.

Your approach is wtd management in isolation. Don't get that at all.

You will NEVER get the wtd hunting of the 80s/90s back, it simply will not ever happen. Times changed, habitat changed, predators changed.

Agree wt are down in some areas from the combination of all issues, in others they are not.

First issue here is money - you have none, so you can't do anything. That needs to be fixed. Once you have money the question: What do we want the habitat to look like? Second is how many predators/prey do we want to see on that landscape? To you there are no questions - just get rid of the doe season.


Feel free to question credibility/competence - won't be the first or the last. Think anyone incapable of performing core function of their job (ie wildlife inventory, distinguishing the difference between conservation/social issues) should be questioned regularly.

To throw out 'it was a political decision' based on one individuals comments is garbage especially if you weren't a part of the conversation.

[Ourea]

There doesn't appear to be more predators. Very seldom do you see a cat track and the coyote population is kept in check by the ranchers.

Yikes.
I run up to 22 trail cams any given day.
They capture an quantify the animals in a given area I target.

I keep accurate records of what I get on cam.
I am always looking at recruitment, number of single fawns, twins, triplets.

I also take special note of preds as I get them on cam daily.

In my WT areas I had never seen a wolf track in 20 yrs.
Now, they are common place and I am 20 mins from town.

This yr I got the most black bears on cam ever.

Cougars have, and still, remain common place.

I can't hike in and yank a cam most days without cutting coyote, wolf or cat tracks.
To say the current ranching generation is taking care of preds....nonsense.

The areas I hunt have zero ranchland.

Here is an average walk for me pulling cams...

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/wolf_zpsiavlhqfx.jpg (http://s1219.photobucket.com/user/browndog100/media/wolf_zpsiavlhqfx.jpg.html)

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/cat2_zpsgroxf3dm.jpg (http://s1219.photobucket.com/user/browndog100/media/cat2_zpsgroxf3dm.jpg.html)

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/cat_zpsaho3qc1r.jpg (http://s1219.photobucket.com/user/browndog100/media/cat_zpsaho3qc1r.jpg.html)

[Ourea]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDJ7EhldJLI

[Ourea]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXS_kEJkJo8

[Ourea]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9lJBKI3hHk

[LBM]

Yikes.
I run up to 22 trail cams any given day.
They capture an quantify the animals in a given area I target.

I keep accurate records of what I get on cam.
I am always looking at recruitment, number of single fawns, twins, triplets.

I also take special note of preds as I get them on cam daily.

In my WT areas I had never seen a wolf track in 20 yrs.
Now, they are common place and I am 20 mins from town.

This yr I got the most black bears on cam ever.

Cougars have, and still, remain common place.

I can't hike in and yank a cam most days without cutting coyote, wolf or cat tracks.
To say the current ranching generation is taking care of preds....nonsense.

The areas I hunt have zero ranchland.

Here is an average walk for me pulling cams...

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/wolf_zpsiavlhqfx.jpg (http://s1219.photobucket.com/user/browndog100/media/wolf_zpsiavlhqfx.jpg.html)

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/cat2_zpsgroxf3dm.jpg (http://s1219.photobucket.com/user/browndog100/media/cat2_zpsgroxf3dm.jpg.html)

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/cat_zpsaho3qc1r.jpg (http://s1219.photobucket.com/user/browndog100/media/cat_zpsaho3qc1r.jpg.html)
You keep saying you see good numbers of whitetail, yet you have predators, so we can eliminate them as being a problem for any of the decline.

[Ourea]

We have a doe season.

Preds kill 365.
Their numbers have been on the increase. (to the point I abandoned my best elk valley)
That is not opinion, it is quantified evidence in the areas I hunt based on cam evidence and endless days in the field.

Yet many come back to regulation as the solution.

An average day in that elk area we could look over 30+ elk a day....now....crickets.
Regulation had nothing to do with the implosion.

[Ourea]

You keep saying you see good numbers of whitetail, yet you have predators, so we can eliminate them as being a problem for any of the decline.

Do preds eat granola?
A quantified increase in preds means more mouths to feed.

I have never said I see good numbers of WT in the areas I hunt.
(have never seen a WT while checking cams in 3 yrs...think about that)
I simply find the ones that are there...quantify them.....in areas where most bitch they are shot out.

[blacklab]

From my perspective managing wt below carrying capacity makes a lot of sense.

In a nutshell: because you have garbage winter range, which is degrading and has been for 40+ years. And you have increased predator loading and resulting negative impacts on mule deer and other wildlife species. The issues with moose in other parts of NA have also been linked to brain worm which comes with WT. It also makes sense to try to limit their distribution as there are other values/species on the landscape --- not to mention mountain caribou. Also wtd are far more cryptic and resilient than other species and are much more suited to handle high harvest rates.

So that is not a political decision, that is a multi-use decision.

Your approach is wtd management in isolation. Don't get that at all.

You will NEVER get the wtd hunting of the 80s/90s back, it simply will not ever happen. Times changed, habitat changed, predators changed.

Agree wt are down in some areas from the combination of all issues, in others they are not.

First issue here is money - you have none, so you can't do anything. That needs to be fixed. Once you have money the question: What do we want the habitat to look like? Second is how many predators/prey do we want to see on that landscape? To you there are no questions - just get rid of the doe season.


Feel free to question credibility/competence - won't be the first or the last. Think anyone incapable of performing core function of their job (ie wildlife inventory, distinguishing the difference between conservation/social issues) should be questioned regularly.

To throw out 'it was a political decision' based on one individuals comments is garbage especially if you weren't a part of the conversation.

I'd be happy to see white tail hunting like it was 5 or 6 years ago.
And your right about one thing, it isn't going to happen.
Not as long we keep treating them like a pest.

[Ourea]

I'd be happy to see white tail hunting like it was 5 or 6 years ago.
And your right about one thing, it isn't going to happen.
Not as long we keep treating them like a pest.

Or ignoring the big picture

[wideopenthrottle]

Do preds eat granola?
A quantified increase in preds means more mouths to feed.

I have never said I see good numbers of WT in the areas I hunt.
(have never seen a WT while checking cams in 3 yrs...think about that)
I simply find the ones that are there...quantify them.....in areas where most bitch they are shot out.

not to mention the effect that predators have on deer stress levels and the ultimate effect that stress has on reproductive sucess (apart from the actual animals killed by them)

[wideopenthrottle]

A story about a smart WT

Where I grew up, we would often see a deer from the water and drop 2 or 3 hunters at one of a narrow point or island and put a shooter at the other end of the island or the tip of the point....

There was this one time where we pushed a relatively small island with very minimal cover and 2 of us were able to see almost everything as we pushed the island.... we got to the end and the shooter says I heard him coming then he stopped and I didn't hear anything after that.....as we approached him (not hearing a shot) we thought he must have gone to sleep and missed the deer swim off to a new island but that was not the case.....

As there was a light dust of snow, we went to look where he had heard it...we found its tracks and followed them back towards the direction we had just come from.....when we got to where it must have slipped past us we noticed tracks and belly rubs in the dusting of snow....The deer had actually ducked and crawled past us at less than 50 yards...

By the time we caught up to him he had already swam across a narrow patch of water into some nasty thick endless stuff (as in GONE!)

Most people wont believe the story when we have retold it

[Dannybuoy]

A story about a smart WT

Where I grew up, we would often see a deer from the water and drop 2 or 3 hunters at one of a narrow point or island and put a shooter at the other end of the island or the tip of the point....

There was this one time where we pushed a relatively small island with very minimal cover and 2 of us were able to see almost everything as we pushed the island.... we got to the end and the shooter says I heard him coming then he stopped and I didn't hear anything after that.....as we approached him (not hearing a shot) we thought he must have gone to sleep and missed the deer swim off to a new island but that was not the case.....

As there was a light dust of snow, we went to look where he had heard it...we found its tracks and followed them back towards the direction we had just come from.....when we got to where it must have slipped past us we noticed tracks and belly rubs in the dusting of snow....The deer had actually ducked and crawled past us at less than 50 yards...

By the time we caught up to him he had already swam across a narrow patch of water into some nasty thick endless stuff (as in GONE!)

Most people wont believe the story when we have retold it

I have seen whities crawl under fences .... and someone told me he had seen a whitetail buck sneeking away in the tall grass belly crawling .... so I believe you !

[horshur]

you guys extended the cougar season (region8) under the pretense of pred control it said that when the regulation review was open for comment....ridiculous!!! There is no point extending the season to kill a couple more Toms. killing toms is not pred control....You got to kill females. So how I see it you have open season on Does closed season on the preds. A female cougar with < 6 month kits need to kill nearly every day, primarily she kills fawns. Read the regulations..you cannot hunt a cougar accompanying a cougar kitten(cat under 0ne year old) females are nearly always accompanying!. But what is the point there is no habitat anyway right?

The old time knuckle dragger I know shot females and kits left the Big Toms alone mostly...but what did he know?

[Ourea]

you guys extended the cougar season (region8) under the pretense of pred control it said that when the regulation review was open for comment....ridiculous!!! There is no point extending the season to kill a couple more Toms. killing toms is not pred control....You got to kill females. So how I see it you have open season on Does closed season on the preds. A female cougar with < 6 month kits need to kill nearly every day, primarily she kills fawns. Read the regulations..you cannot hunt a cougar accompanying a cougar kitten(cat under 0ne year old) females are nearly always accompanying!. But what is the point there is no habitat anyway right?

The old time knuckle dragger I know shot females and kits left the Big Toms alone mostly...but what did he know?

He knew how to deal with a problem.

[GoatGuy]

you guys extended the cougar season (region8) under the pretense of pred control it said that when the regulation review was open for comment....ridiculous!!! There is no point extending the season to kill a couple more Toms. killing toms is not pred control....You got to kill females. So how I see it you have open season on Does closed season on the preds. A female cougar with < 6 month kits need to kill nearly every day, primarily she kills fawns. Read the regulations..you cannot hunt a cougar accompanying a cougar kitten(cat under 0ne year old) females are nearly always accompanying!. But what is the point there is no habitat anyway right?

The old time knuckle dragger I know shot females and kits left the Big Toms alone mostly...but what did he know?
The region 8 change was to allow g/os to book moose/cougar combos - nothing to do with 'management'.

Most of what you say makes sense from a wl man perspective.

[LBM]

you guys extended the cougar season (region8) under the pretense of pred control it said that when the regulation review was open for comment....ridiculous!!! There is no point extending the season to kill a couple more Toms. killing toms is not pred control....You got to kill females. So how I see it you have open season on Does closed season on the preds. A female cougar with < 6 month kits need to kill nearly every day, primarily she kills fawns. Read the regulations..you cannot hunt a cougar accompanying a cougar kitten(cat under 0ne year old) females are nearly always accompanying!. But what is the point there is no habitat anyway right?

The old time knuckle dragger I know shot females and kits left the Big Toms alone mostly...but what did he know?

Well in region 4 they do kill females, but also kill to many Toms, if some toms were left to get abit older may help manage the cougar population on there own.

[Ourea]

Well in region 4 they do kill females, but also kill to many Toms, if some toms were left to get abit older may help manage the cougar population on there own.

Mature Toms keep subordinate males in check.....ie kill a good chunk of them.
Who targets mature Tom's at a high level of success?

And the wheel goes round and round...

[horshur]

Well in region 4 they do kill females, but also kill to many Toms, if some toms were left to get abit older may help manage the cougar population on there own.

According to Johanthan Keehner.
" It is complex because some areas are "sources" and some areas are "sinks" but generally speaking-To maintain cougar population harvest young Toms-To lower cougar population harvest females and older Toms.

[horshur]

Mature Toms keep subordinate males in check.....ie kill a good chunk of them.
Who targets mature Tom's at a high level of success?

And the wheel goes round and round...

not really true..there is an issue of sexual segregation however which can put isolated ungulate populations at higher risk because females keep there kits away from cannibalistic young Toms.

[labguy]

Yikes.
I run up to 22 trail cams any given day.
They capture an quantify the animals in a given area I target.

I keep accurate records of what I get on cam.
I am always looking at recruitment, number of single fawns, twins, triplets.

I also take special note of preds as I get them on cam daily.

In my WT areas I had never seen a wolf track in 20 yrs.
Now, they are common place and I am 20 mins from town.

This yr I got the most black bears on cam ever.

Cougars have, and still, remain common place.

I can't hike in and yank a cam most days without cutting coyote, wolf or cat tracks.
To say the current ranching generation is taking care of preds....nonsense.

The areas I hunt have zero ranchland.

Here is an average walk for me pulling cams...



Good lord man, I'm talking about the Commonage specifically....... Not the area you hunt.....If you're going to quote me at least respond appropriately.

[303savage]

There is 2 guys in the pic and the shadow of one preson taking the pic and only 4 big bucks an one dink

[LBM]

Mature Toms keep subordinate males in check.....ie kill a good chunk of them.
Who targets mature Tom's at a high level of success?

And the wheel goes round and round...
Don't no what a mature Tom is in your mind, they don't get a chance to get very old in many areas.

[bearvalley]

And the wheel goes round and round...

Isn't that the truth.....

[Dannybuoy]

There is 2 guys in the pic and the shadow of one preson taking the pic and only 4 big bucks an one dink

And your point is ? There was a WT buck and no doe season back in the day (reg 8)

[HarryToolips]

I'd be happy to see white tail hunting like it was 5 or 6 years ago.
And your right about one thing, it isn't going to happen.
Not as long we keep treating them like a pest.
Talked to a hunting buddy today who has property in 8-14, he hunts it frequently and has t cams setup - we all know 8-14 sees a tonne of pressure, and wolves are around now..from his observations, the wt pops are "stable" with more mature bucks..sure 15 years ago, when wt does weren't being shot at and pressured, he would see a 100 wt in his neighbors field, with very few being bucks, and usually those were just little dinks - is that a healthy deer pops with good biodiversity? and I doubt the fawn:doe ratio was very high with that little amount of sperm - all the pressure was on the bucks..

And an example of how they adapt: every t cam pick of wt movement by the end of November/early December, was nocturnal - every. single. one...and more positive news: he's seeng more mule deer now in the area, including a few mature bucks..until this year he hadn't seen a mule deer on his property in about 10 years..

[GoatGuy]

he's seeng more mule deer now in the area, including a few mature bucks..until this year he hadn't seen a mule deer on his property in about 10 years..


This, imo, is very, very good news.

[horshur]

The answer to the cougar management(other thread) . BC's objective is to maintain the cougar population. "See Kheener quote ". Read regs.

Where cougar hunting is popular the population is going to be young..very few local cats are going to reach 2.5 years except females..the Older Toms will primarily be migrants from a source population and skew the harvest data age numbers. I don't have to see the numbers to know this. It is straight logic. We have recorded collared cats from Idaho treed in the Adams think about it? Most of the larger cats in the Ok will be migrants from the south the big cats in the koots dispersed from Alberta.
The areas of heavy harvest will not have many Toms left in them come season close which mitigate natural mortality of kits by transient Toms keeping a higher population. Where a young Tom has managed to evade harvest he is going to be quikly hunting for a female and if she has kits they are in peril thus why some areas the cougar population is going to be lacking where it was not in the past this probably will be a remote area or have topography that is hard to hunt. The reality is the more remote areas tend to have less cats
which is counter intuitive.
The old dominant Tom and killing mature Toms? Rare. But he will protect his females and compete for breeding maybe. Lot's of old time cougar lore is not holding up to gps data.

[Whonnock Boy]

Still don't want to answer my question...... Criticize other comments, with no answers or recommendations is the way to go I guess.


The answer

[horshur]

Still don't want to answer my question...... Criticize other comments, with no answers or recommendations is the way to go I guess.

Page 94 BC trappers manual.

Management objectives

1 Substitute harvest for natural mortality whenever possible
2 minimize catch of adult females
3 controlling animal numbers to reduce pressure on prey population
4 controlling animal numbers to prevent or reduce habitat degradation and promote renewal
5 controlling animal numbers to minimize negative ecological and economical effect applicable to class 3 carnivores removal of transients and some resident adults may help maintain a prey base that can provide for
6 better survival of remaining animals
7 less chance of remaining animals being in poor condition and subject to disease
8 less competition with and predation on local species that may be at risk or otherwise important and
9 reduced human conflict situations.

[Husky7mm]

This, imo, is very, very good news.

Good news indeed, albeit anecdotal.

[Whonnock Boy]

The best you could come up with is a copy and paste with no solutions? What a pile of hors......

You criticize everyone who is advocating for change, science, growing wildlife, and habitat. Maybe it's time to work with people, instead of fighting with them at every turn.
Page 94 BC trappers manual.

Management objectives

1 Substitute harvest for natural mortality whenever possible
2 minimize catch of adult females
3 controlling animal numbers to reduce pressure on prey population
4 controlling animal numbers to prevent or reduce habitat degradation and promote renewal
5 controlling animal numbers to minimize negative ecological and economical effect applicable to class 3 carnivores removal of transients and some resident adults may help maintain a prey base that can provide for
6 better survival of remaining animals
7 less chance of remaining animals being in poor condition and subject to disease
8 less competition with and predation on local species that may be at risk or otherwise important and
9 reduced human conflict situations.

[horshur]

The region 8 change was to allow g/os to book moose/cougar combos - nothing to do with 'management'.

Most of what you say makes sense from a wl man perspective.

the extension was for feb 15th to march 31st....they really hunting moose then?

[mpotzold]

No comment.

I have been hunting since 1967 and I have never seen a whitetail buck.

Same here!
The only place I've seen WT is around ranches, farming areas south of Vanderhoof.
WT map
http://linnet.geog.ubc.ca/efauna/Images/Maps/mammal/big/Odocoileus%20virginianus%20map.png

[GoatGuy]

the extension was for feb 15th to march 31st....they really hunting moose then?
Sorry, Was referring to nov extension.

[scottwh]

I see it as a lesson learned for you, more hunters back then taking multiple trophy class bucks equals fewer for next generation...

So... Kinda like going to the same sheep spot and getting double headers year after year..... Wont be any sheep left either!

[GoatGuy]

Good news indeed, albeit anecdotal.
True story, need money, do it properly.

[Husky7mm]

I hold anecdotal pretty high, boots and eyes on the ground, barely seen a bio in the woods, especially during the season.

[HarryToolips]

^^^^speaking of boots and eyes on the ground, today I went out with my recurve for about 5 hours, and only covering a small area of winter range that I hunt, in a very heavily pressured area of R8 - in that small area I saw about 15 WT and 10 muleys, one of the muleys being a doe with triplet yearlings, and 2 of the WT were mature bucks (couldn't rattle em in quite close enough:x) and loads of sign - every December bow season I frequent this area, and I'm always impressed at how many wt survive the heavy hunting pressure in this area, year after year..

[J_06]

Sorry extermination program? please enlighten those of us that are younger or newer?Look at the picture :p

[blacklab]

The first picture in this thread, 1987, 4 bucks 7 hunters.
Next picture, 2014.
Somebody will twist this around to the meet their own agenda, so be it.

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc36/jmlay/PB260712_zpsxpbobfiy.jpg?1482070523223&1482070534941&1482070547325&1482070565030&1482070582701

[labguy]

I hold anecdotal pretty high, boots and eyes on the ground, barely seen a bio in the woods, especially during the season.

Anecdotal is fine except observation is confined to one small area and doesn't look at the big (MU) picture. There will always be small pockets of good/healthy populations.

Anecdotal is not an accurate measurement of overall population.

[Sitkaspruce]

I hold anecdotal pretty high, boots and eyes on the ground, barely seen a bio in the woods, especially during the season.

Husky, not to argue, but do Bio's and wildlife techs have special signs to tell us they are out and about?? Not sure how you know when they are out or not?? I see these comments all the time from the armchair Bio's and its BS as far as I am concerned.

I know personally that right now, the local bio and team are flying moose counts right now and will move on to other species during the year up here in the Peace. Plus they have been out all season doing what we all love to do!!

Just remember, MOE has the smallest budget of the dirt ministries and is held back but not only budgets, but also by political crap, lobbied but some of the strongest lobbyist in the province (farmers, ranchers etc.), constantly fighting and losing to the other dirt ministries when it comes to fish and wildlife protection and are trying to apply science to an ever changing landscape in BC. Would not be a fun job when everyone is breathing down their necks!!!

Cheers

SS

[Salty]

Stop making sense Ken ^ this thread is for armchair prophets to manufacture hysteria :mrgreen:

[Ourea]

Husky, not to argue, but do Bio's and wildlife techs have special signs to tell us they are out and about?? Not sure how you know when they are out or not?? I see these comments all the time from the armchair Bio's and its BS as far as I am concerned.

I know personally that right now, the local bio and team are flying moose counts right now and will move on to other species during the year up here in the Peace. Plus they have been out all season doing what we all love to do!!

Just remember, MOE has the smallest budget of the dirt ministries and is held back but not only budgets, but also by political crap, lobbied but some of the strongest lobbyist in the province (farmers, ranchers etc.), constantly fighting and losing to the other dirt ministries when it comes to fish and wildlife protection and are trying to apply science to an ever changing landscape in BC. Would not be a fun job when everyone is breathing down their necks!!!

Cheers

SS

Quite an accurate summary.
First nations is another ingredient in the mix that consumes their time.
Endless meetings with logging, mining, special interest and development representatives.....most here have zero idea just how political their job is. No one picks up the ph to call and wish them well.

They have next to no budget.
Their hands are tied in many situations from above yet the ignorant simply point the finger at "bios" mismanaging.

Regulation changes will not counter or rebalance the endless loss of old growth timber to logging and the increased access to the back country.
Regs will not counter the loss and destruction of winter range.
Regs will not address the rapid expansion of wolf populations.
Regs will not address the escalating FN harvest.
Habitat destruction = wildlife destruction.

Yet, here we are, another thread arguing down in the mud.
The icing on the cake is the out right refuting of decades of study on WT deer by some......that hundreds of peer reviewed papers and book....they are all wrong

We wonder why hunters, as a user group, have little respect and are known for our ignorance.
We demonstrate this daily.

[Bugle M In]

Quite an accurate summary.
First nations is another ingredient in the mix that consumes their time.
Endless meetings with logging, mining, special interest and development representatives.....most here have zero idea just how political their job is. No one picks up the ph to call and wish them well.

They have next to no budget.
Their hands are tied in many situations from above yet the ignorant simply point the finger at "bios" mismanaging.

Regulation changes will not counter or rebalance the endless loss of old growth timber to logging and the increased access to the back country.
Regs will not counter the loss and destruction of winter range.
Regs will not address the rapid expansion of wolf populations.
Regs will not address the escalating FN harvest.
Habitat destruction = wildlife destruction.

Yet, here we are, another thread arguing down in the mud.
The icing on the cake is the out right refuting of decades of study on WT deer by some......that hundreds of peer reviewed papers and book....they are all wrong

We wonder why hunters, as a user group, have little respect and are known for our ignorance.
We demonstrate this daily.

Well said...

[Dannybuoy]

Quite an accurate summary.
First nations is another ingredient in the mix that consumes their time.
Endless meetings with logging, mining, special interest and development representatives.....most here have zero idea just how political their job is. No one picks up the ph to call and wish them well.

They have next to no budget.
Their hands are tied in many situations from above yet the ignorant simply point the finger at "bios" mismanaging.

Regulation changes will not counter or rebalance the endless loss of old growth timber to logging and the increased access to the back country.
Regs will not counter the loss and destruction of winter range.
Regs will not address the rapid expansion of wolf populations.
Regs will not address the escalating FN harvest.
Habitat destruction = wildlife destruction.

Yet, here we are, another thread arguing down in the mud.
The icing on the cake is the out right refuting of decades of study on WT deer by some......that hundreds of peer reviewed papers and book....they are all wrong

We wonder why hunters, as a user group, have little respect and are known for our ignorance.
We demonstrate this daily.

Only thing I would disagree with is that I would hope that most hunters do not think like a lot of the more vocal HBC members as I am a hunter and know a lot of hunters (not on this forum) . But then what do I know ....

[LeverActionJunkie]

Quite an accurate summary.
First nations is another ingredient in the mix that consumes their time.
Endless meetings with logging, mining, special interest and development representatives.....most here have zero idea just how political their job is. No one picks up the ph to call and wish them well.

They have next to no budget.
Their hands are tied in many situations from above yet the ignorant simply point the finger at "bios" mismanaging.

Regulation changes will not counter or rebalance the endless loss of old growth timber to logging and the increased access to the back country.
Regs will not counter the loss and destruction of winter range.
Regs will not address the rapid expansion of wolf populations.
Regs will not address the escalating FN harvest.
Habitat destruction = wildlife destruction.

Yet, here we are, another thread arguing down in the mud.
The icing on the cake is the out right refuting of decades of study on WT deer by some......that hundreds of peer reviewed papers and book....they are all wrong

We wonder why hunters, as a user group, have little respect and are known for our ignorance.
We demonstrate this daily.

Very well said. Couldn't agree more. This thread has been surmised perfectly and unless someone has a suggestion for how to increase funding, organization and action on and for habitat repair and improvement. I don't see a valid path (for this thread)

[winbuckhunter]

The extermination he talks about is perhaps the 1 month long antlerless season we have province wide. Perhaps the changes made is MU-3 that allows hunters to harvest 2 whitetails, either sex. Meaning hunters can harvest either two bucks or two does. Or perhaps it's the fact that they've changed the aggregate limit in MU-8 from 2 to 3, allowing hunters to harvest a whitetail buck and doe, while still harvesting a Muley buck.

IMO, though it probably has to do with third party organizations. For example ICBC, who are lobbying against the preservation of our deer herds, in order to save money on motor vehicle collisions with ungulates. I think it also has to do with the fact that our crown land is extremely more accessible then it once was, with the amount of logging roads and new logging roads all the time. I think the regulations on returning the environment back to its natural state (deactivating more forestry roads) should be a lot more strict.

Remember driving from Kelowna to beaverdell on hwy-33 15 years ago, you'd see 40+ whitetails. Now you're lucky to see a few.

[Ourea]

Very well said. Couldn't agree more. This thread has been surmised perfectly and unless someone has a suggestion for how to increase funding, organization and action on and for habitat repair and improvement. I don't see a valid path (for this thread)

I will put my business hat on.....

Firstly, let's define the problem.
Pretty obvious what most of the key drivers are.
-Habitat destruction/degradation.
-Preds.
-Ever increasing access.
-Uncontrolled harvest.
-No strategic long term plan/resolution
-No funding

It all starts with and ends with $$$$$$
Gov only listens to 2 things and that is $$$ or votes.
We, as hunters, are just one of endless groups knocking on the door of Gov looking for them to pay for and finance our noble cause. We all know how well that has gone over the years.

Solution
A face.
A voice.
$$$$
Engage industry and business to create a long term sustainable funding model.
Any entity that derives income off crown land pays into trust that is outside of Gov.
Obviously Gov needs to support and be on board.

Leverage.
As $$$ are secured from industry and the private sector .....leverage Gov for access to all hunting license and tag revenues.
Again, held outside GOv.

It is key for the support of Gov in this scenario but they cannot control the $$$.
Govs come and go, and if they are in charge of your business model or $$$....you are not sustainable.

At the end of the day we need a solid solution that brings $$$ to the table.
Wildlife is at a critical crossroads.

[Dannybuoy]

I will put my business hat on.....

Firstly, let's define the problem.
Pretty obvious what most of the key drivers are.
-Habitat destruction/degradation.
-Preds.
-Ever increasing access.
-Uncontrolled harvest.
-No strategic long term plan/resolution
-No funding

It all starts with and ends with $$$$$$
Gov only listens to 2 things and that is $$$ or votes.
We, as hunters, are just one of endless groups knocking on the door of Gov looking for them to pay for and finance our noble cause. We all know how well that has gone over the years.

Solution
A face.
A voice.
$$$$
Engage industry and business to create a long term sustainable funding model.
Any entity that derives income off crown land pays into trust that is outside of Gov.
Obviously Gov needs to support and be on board.

Leverage.
As $$$ are secured from industry and the private sector .....leverage Gov for access to all hunting license and tag revenues.
Again, held outside GOv.

It is key for the support of Gov in this scenario but they cannot control the $$$.
Govs come and go, and if they are in charge of your business model or $$$....you are not sustainable.

At the end of the day we need a solid solution that brings $$$ to the table.
Wildlife is at a critical crossroads.

Well thought out !

[LeverActionJunkie]

I will put my business hat on.....

Firstly, let's define the problem.
Pretty obvious what most of the key drivers are.
-Habitat destruction/degradation.
-Preds.
-Ever increasing access.
-Uncontrolled harvest.
-No strategic long term plan/resolution
-No funding

It all starts with and ends with $$$$$$
Gov only listens to 2 things and that is $$$ or votes.
We, as hunters, are just one of endless groups knocking on the door of Gov looking for them to pay for and finance our noble cause. We all know how well that has gone over the years.

Solution
A face.
A voice.
$$$$
Engage industry and business to create a long term sustainable funding model.
Any entity that derives income off crown land pays into trust that is outside of Gov.
Obviously Gov needs to support and be on board.

Leverage.
As $$$ are secured from industry and the private sector .....leverage Gov for access to all hunting license and tag revenues.
Again, held outside GOv.

It is key for the support of Gov in this scenario but they cannot control the $$$.
Govs come and go, and if they are in charge of your business model or $$$....you are not sustainable.

At the end of the day we need a solid solution that brings $$$ to the table.
Wildlife is at a critical crossroads.

Very well thought out indeed! It is very encouraging to see this kind of thinking and talk going on. Very encouraging indeed. Hopefully we will find, if we haven't already, that face who can speak with the voice of all hunters, and dare I say wilderness users to help change the path of $$$'s to where it needs to be spent in order to do the work necessary. All of us as citizens of this province and indeed this country need to realize that the govt works for us with our $$$. If we do not feel our $$$ is being spent as we wish we should have it changed. This is obviously where the face and the voice you speak of are so important. I believe these things being talked about are very much possible and hope that the apatite is there to begin making things much more a reality than ideas.

[blacklab]

When I read your last post I think you and I may agree on something, "there is a problem".
It looks obvious to me, most of the posters to this thread think there is a problem, not enough deer or not enough money.
I'm not sure throwing money at it will help. Government is always wanting more money.
When they get it they spend it on those that are making the most noise.
Most of us as hunters aren't making any noise as individuals, and we don't have an organization that will go to bat for us as resident hunters.
Government, native groups, anti hunters and guide outfitters love it when we fight amongst ourselves. They get what they want, we get a bone thrown our way once in awhile.
Right now I think the white tail deer is considered a throwaway species and has been sold as such. What will they give us when the white tail are gone?

[Ourea]

When I read your last post I think you and I may agree on something, "there is a problem".
It looks obvious to me, most of the posters to this thread think there is a problem, not enough deer or not enough money.
I'm not sure throwing money at it will help. Government is always wanting more money.
When they get it they spend it on those that are making the most noise.
Most of us as hunters aren't making any noise as individuals, and we don't have an organization that will go to bat for us as resident hunters.
Government, native groups, anti hunters and guide outfitters love it when we fight amongst ourselves. They get what they want, we get a bone thrown our way once in awhile.
Right now I think the white tail deer is considered a throwaway species and has been sold as such. What will they give us when the white tail are gone?

Blacklab I am trying to pull this out of the mud and shine a light.

You may have missed some of my points, key points.
Monies raised from industry would/should go to a trust held outside of Gov.
Think of them as a 3rd party administrator.
Gov would pay license revenues into this trust as well.
Our leverage for this would be...."if you want us to invest 10's of millions into wildlife you need to step up and gives us back what we put into license revenues".
Maximum dollars are now leveraged.

Amazing how quick Gov can get on board when you pay the bill.

[Husky7mm]

Husky, not to argue, but do Bio's and wildlife techs have special signs to tell us they are out and about?? Not sure how you know when they are out or not?? I see these comments all the time from the armchair Bio's and its BS as far as I am concerned.

I know personally that right now, the local bio and team are flying moose counts right now and will move on to other species during the year up here in the Peace. Plus they have been out all season doing what we all love to do!!

Just remember, MOE has the smallest budget of the dirt ministries and is held back but not only budgets, but also by political crap, lobbied but some of the strongest lobbyist in the province (farmers, ranchers etc.), constantly fighting and losing to the other dirt ministries when it comes to fish and wildlife protection and are trying to apply science to an ever changing landscape in BC. Would not be a fun job when everyone is breathing down their necks!!!
Cheers
SS

Ya that's right , every 5 or 10 years they do a count on some wildlife....Yawn
Then one year they do a study on some frogs, then in another year the spruce grouse, maybe collar a 1/2 dozen mule deer, maybe a few cats. Yawn
Ya I know they are on a shoestring budget. That gets regurgitated all the time , doesn't change the fact that very little gets done and because of that it's impossible for them to have their finger on the pulse of the wildlife populations in BC and all of Canada for that matter.
Yes they have signs...... yes they create reports we can read
Quailifyed anecdotal info is important. The logger that's been hauling from the same area for 30yrs , his observations shouldnt be disqualified. The forestry person that works in the same area year after year, if he notes the population of WT are down in his area , they likely are. The hunting group that goes to the same area every year and has been doing it for a decade. They know something about the population and dynamics of that area too. If they share a concern it doesn't need to be discredited. Its many of the shared concerns that initiated the study in the first place.
I work in the bush surveying , scouting and mapping , pipelines , roads and leases. 300 plus days a year, the other 65 I am hunting and scouting. I have quailifyed observations for the area I frequent , why wouldn't others. I don't appreciate being talked down too. I don't want to say what I really think about it.

[Wild one]

Ya that's right , every 5 or 10 years they do a count on some wildlife....Yawn
Then one year they do a study on some frogs, then in another year the spruce grouse, maybe collar a 1/2 dozen mule deer, maybe a few cats. Yawn
Ya I know they are on a shoestring budget. That gets regurgitated all the time , doesn't change the fact that very little gets done and because of that it's impossible for them to have their finger on the pulse of the wildlife populations in BC and all of Canada for that matter.
Yes they have signs...... yes they create reports we can read
Quailifyed anecdotal info is important. The logger that's been hauling from the same area for 30yrs , his observations should be disqualified. The forestry person that works in the same area year after year, if he notes the population of WT are down in his area , they likely are. The hunting group that goes to the same area every year and has been doing it for a decade. They know something about the population and dynamics of that area too. If they share a concern it doesn't need to be discredited. Its many of the shared concerns that initiated the study in the first place.
I work in the bush surveying , scouting and mapping , pipelines , roads and leases. 300 plus days a year, the other 65 I am hunting and scouting. I have quailifyed observations for the area I frequent , why wouldn't others. I don't appreciate being talked down too. I don't want to say what I really think about it.


There is some who are humble enough to take reports and info from those they know have knowledge on areas do to time in the field. Unfortunately there is also those that have an ego do to being educated and believe they are above you

From my experience if you can provide well collected data and evidence to those that are humble they may listen. If you can provide info in this manner you stand a chance being heard. Remember they can't bring up a concern just on hear say as they will be judged by piers.

You can be heard as 1 man but you need to be able to provide more than this is what I seen. You need a indepth report of what you observe. Outside of this cross your fingers you can bring your findings to a humble man not one with an ego. Present your concerns or findings with respect is very important

Never hurts to try you may put in a lot of effort and get ignored or you may get heard

[Ourea]

There are lots of credible eyes and ears out in the field that simply observe.

What is lacking is a means, a conduit, to help solve the challenges many see.

[blacklab]

There are lots of credible eyes and ears out in the field that simply observe.

What is lacking is a means, a conduit, to help solve the challenges many see.

I agree, and until we have one voice or conduit, we are going to sit an flap our gums and get nowhere.
Contacting MOE staff as an individual is a joke, they listen for 5 minutes, tell you they know best, don't waste our time.

[Whonnock Boy]

Do you belong to either the BCWF or GOABC? Of course an individual is not going to be heard, but working within the system, and an organization, will certainly gain one more traction.
I agree, and until we have one voice or conduit, we are going to sit an flap our gums and get nowhere.
Contacting MOE staff as an individual is a joke, they listen for 5 minutes, tell you they know best, don't waste our time.

[Ourea]

I agree, and until we have one voice or conduit, we are going to sit an flap our gums and get nowhere.
Contacting MOE staff as an individual is a joke, they listen for 5 minutes, tell you they know best, don't waste our time.

That's why playing in the mud doesn't work.

Bigger efforts are being made.

[bearvalley]

Solution
A face.
A voice.
$$$$
Engage industry and business to create a long term sustainable funding model.
Any entity that derives income off crown land pays into trust that is outside of Gov.
Obviously Gov needs to support and be on board.

Leverage.
As $$$ are secured from industry and the private sector .....leverage Gov for access to all hunting license and tag revenues.
Again, held outside GOv.

It is key for the support of Gov in this scenario but they cannot control the $$$.
Govs come and go, and if they are in charge of your business model or $$$....you are not sustainable.

What Ourea is saying right here is the direction wildlife management needs to go.

[Wild one]

Do you belong to either the BCWF or GOABC? Of course an individual is not going to be heard, but working within the system, and an organization, will certainly gain one more traction.

Dissagree

harder to be heard yes but you are also likely to be drowned out by politics with both organizations mentioned

[Whonnock Boy]

Hate the game, not the players. One just has to learn how to be effective.
Dissagree

harder to be heard yes but you are also likely to be drowned out by politics with both organizations mentioned

[Ourea]

Dissagree

harder to be heard yes but you are also likely to be drowned out by politics with both organizations mentioned


Back in he mud we go

[LeverActionJunkie]

Back in he mud we go

Sometimes the roads muddy and long. Sometimes the ruts keep pullin ya in. But If the wheels keep turnin eventually you get to where you're goin.

[blacklab]

Do you belong to either the BCWF or GOABC? Of course an individual is not going to be heard, but working within the system, and an organization, will certainly gain one more traction.

No I don't belong to the BCWFGOABC.