Cougar Bag Limits - Regional, Provincial and MU's - MU Clusters!

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

For some time now, I have been wondering about Cougar Bag limits. Specifically, my question has been that while clearly the BC Provincial Bag limit (as of this writing - As always, regulations are subject to change at anytime and I am posting what is valid right now as I type) is 2 and I now am living and doing most of my Hunting in Region 4 which has a Regional Bag Limit of 2. That said many MU's in this Region have a bag limit of 1.

With some help from a CO, I have discovered that there is actually a reason why MU's are clustered together in the Regulations Synopsis! Using Region 4 Cougar Hunting (not including Pursuit Only as that's not applicable here as nothing's taken - Pursuit Only is only for running the hounds on Game. Also not included are potential MU closures due to excess female harvest) as an example the clusters are -

4-1 to 4-4, 4-21 to 4-26, 4-34 t0 4-36 Bag Limit of 1. Sept 10-Jan 31
4-5, 4-20 bag limit of 1. Sept 10-Feb 28
4-6 to 4-8, 4-28 to 4-31, 4-38, 4-39 Bag Limit of 2. Sept 10-Mar 31
4-9 to 4-19, 4-27, 4-32, 4-33, 4-37, 4-40 Bag Limit of 1

My question was can I kill a Cougar in 4-20 then take another out of 4-4? The answer is yes as they are different clusters. Can I kill a Cougar in 4-33 and then another in 4-32? No, because they are the same cluster. Two cats can be killed for the entire bag limit in any of the MU's from the 2 Cougar Bag Limit.

Turns out this is why the MU's are clustered up together as they are! Anyone else know this? Thoughts, comments?

[butthead]

i don't hunt cougar the 4 legged kind any ways
so don't read those regs
don't need to clutter my scattered mind with stuff i don't need to know

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

Fair enough!

Of course, the MU clusters thing may well apply elsewhere so it could be of use sometime. In fact anytime there is multiple animals available in the regional Bag Limit, it does.

Plus ya never know, might take it up some year?

[Gateholio]

i don't hunt cougar the 4 legged kind any ways
so don't read those regs
don't need to clutter my scattered mind with stuff i don't need to know

Great input. Thanks for coming out.

[Ddog]

didn't know it,,,and don't care,,thats my thought and comment

[r106]

I didn't know that as I've never hunted cougar. is it only cougar or other species as well?

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

Alright

I tried to make "alright" my entire post... Too short, needs to be 10 characters! (this was in response to Ddog).

Never had a too short post before. Another new thing learned.

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

r106 - It applies in any instance wherein multiple animals of the same Big Game species can be harvested in the Province/Region. So let's use this example -

Region 2 Columbia Blacktail Bucks 2-5, 2-12 Sept 10-Nov 30 Bag Limit 1. Regional Bag Limit is 2. If you kill a Buck in 2-12, then it appears to be a no go for 2-5. Just like EK Cougar, I figure.

[Looking_4_Jerky]

didn't know it,,,and don't care,,thats my thought and comment

Geez. More brilliant feedback.

Here's something that might elicit some input from you:
A six-pac of no-name beer just went up in price by a nickel.

[HarryToolips]

I had no clue, I don't have hounds to hunt em, but I buy a tag anyway so if I see one I can save a lot of deer..and cougar meat balls are good tasty mmmmm....

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

Excellent, that's awesome!

Even without dogs, you might just cut a track in fresh snow sometime. Also, for Coyote Hunters these big cats have been known to come in to calls! Hope you get one

[5jackz]

Did not know.
Thanks for the info.

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

Glad the thread has been useful for you 5jackz. You are very welcome!

[Ddog]

Geez. More brilliant feedback.

Here's something that might elicit some input from you:
A six-pac of no-name beer just went up in price by a nickel.

didn't know that either as i don't drink beer, so don't care about that either, ..hows that for more feedback for you whom obviously likes to to drink no-name beer,, does that upset you ? might i suggest that you try drinking some homemade beer, that way it'll keep the price down for you.

[dracb]

Here is something else you may not know if you failed to read the synopsis from cover to cover. Those Region 4 cougars have to be compulsory inspected within four days of the kill and must be inspected within Region 4

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

Very true dracb! I personally was aware of that, yet did indeed fail to mention it here.

An excellent contribution! Thank You

[LBM]

Region 4 cougars are over harvested in many MUs
Should be managed by MU with a 2 to 4 cat quota for each MU, possible more depending on MU
To many kittens left to starve to death or to become deemed problem cats because people are
shooting females with young.
Bag limit should be 1 and even go to 1 in 5, that could be said for other species as well such as goats.

[Wild one]

Personally I have had no issue understanding regs laid out this way but it could be written in a clearer fashion.

[Elkaholic]

I was under the understanding that the 2 bag limit only applied in the west koots and/or the caribou recovery zone, the East koots is 1. All of the other MU's get shut down when the female quota has been hit, except for a few. But if a trusty CO told you so I still wouldn't believe him, it just seems counter productive on what they are trying to do. As well as I have on numerous occasions got two different stories out of two different co's on some issues. As LBM has stated most MU's are over harvested on cougar here, you might not think so, but any cat over i would say 70lbs usually takes a bullet. If people still think cougar are a problem here in the EK they have their head in the sand.

[bigredchev]

Didn't know and thanks for the info

[GoatGuy]

Region 4 cougars are over harvested in many MUs
Should be managed by MU with a 2 to 4 cat quota for each MU, possible more depending on MU
To many kittens left to starve to death or to become deemed problem cats because people are
shooting females with young.
Bag limit should be 1 and even go to 1 in 5, that could be said for other species as well such as goats.

Over-harvested based on what?

What should the objective be for cougars?

[Elkaholic]

Over-harvested based on what?

What should the objective be for cougars?

Well you cannot say anything that is being done is based on science as the bio's fully admit they have no idea what is out there. So how would you prove your point that they are under-harvested?

[GoatGuy]

Well you cannot say anything that is being done is based on science as the bio's fully admit they have no idea what is out there. So how would you prove your point that they are under-harvested?
D
Didn't say they were being under-harvested.

Asked why LBM thinks they are being over-harvest.

And secondly what the objective is for cougar management.

Guess the second question would be a good one for you as well.

[horshur]

Not numbers of animals but age class and structure. Current regs are for sustained harvest.

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

I was under the understanding that the 2 bag limit only applied in the west koots and/or the caribou recovery zone, the East koots is 1. All of the other MU's get shut down when the female quota has been hit, except for a few. But if a trusty CO told you so I still wouldn't believe him, it just seems counter productive on what they are trying to do. As well as I have on numerous occasions got two different stories out of two different co's on some issues. As LBM has stated most MU's are over harvested on cougar here, you might not think so, but any cat over i would say 70lbs usually takes a bullet. If people still think cougar are a problem here in the EK they have their head in the sand.

Everyone's free to express their opinion, all are welcome. But I do disagree with LBM and yourself.

For a guy that was under an incorrect impression concerning what the bag limit even is to go on to say that any cat over 70lbs are usually killed by Hunters in the EK strikes me as a total load of nonsense and a truly absurdist, hyperbolic statement at best. Please back this up with legit data if you can, that's nutzo! I presume you're just being colorful?

[LBM]

Over-harvested based on what?

What should the objective be for cougars?

#1 personal observation, harvest data, talking with biologists that say the same thing
#2 A more rounded age class of cats. Managed by MU with a realistic Quota for them
Quota on Toms should have been implemented years ago, more realistic quota on females
Regional bag limit of 1, go to a 1 in 5 limit
Pursuit till the end of March in the EK
That would be a start

[GoatGuy]

#1 personal observation, harvest data, talking with biologists that say the same thing
#2 A more rounded age class of cats. Managed by MU with a realistic Quota for them
Quota on Toms should have been implemented years ago, more realistic quota on females
Regional bag limit of 1, go to a 1 in 5 limit
Pursuit till the end of March in the EK
That would be a start
So not managing cougars, more like a natural, un-hunted structure.

Fair enough.

Certainly some polarizing opinions in the EK, as always.

[houndogger]

#1 personal observation, harvest data, talking with biologists that say the same thing
#2 A more rounded age class of cats. Managed by MU with a realistic Quota for them
Quota on Toms should have been implemented years ago, more realistic quota on females
Regional bag limit of 1, go to a 1 in 5 limit
Pursuit till the end of March in the EK
That would be a start
What's the average age of cats ci in region 4?

[r106]

r106 - It applies in any instance wherein multiple animals of the same Big Game species can be harvested in the Province/Region. So let's use this example -

Region 2 Columbia Blacktail Bucks 2-5, 2-12 Sept 10-Nov 30 Bag Limit 1. Regional Bag Limit is 2. If you kill a Buck in 2-12, then it appears to be a no go for 2-5. Just like EK Cougar, I figure.

hmm I always thought that it just ment you can only take 1 from one of those mu's but you could still take one from another as long as you don't go over regional or provincial bag limits. If what your saying is true I bet there are a lot of people taking some illegal deer

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

So not managing cougars, more like a natural, un-hunted structure.

Fair enough.

Certainly some polarizing opinions in the EK, as always.

I figure polarized opinions are all over the place! I also figure that the Region 4 Cougar Hunt is just fine and is being managed well and in a sustainable way.

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

hmm I always thought that it just ment you can only take 1 from one of those mu's but you could still take one from another as long as you don't go over regional or provincial bag limits. If what your saying is true I bet there are a lot of people taking some illegal deer

Thought the same myself!

[LBM]

What's the average age of cats ci in region 4?

don't no, not sure if they even send a tooth in any more, and from what I have been
told if they do depends to what lab.

[Elkaholic]

Everyone's free to express their opinion, all are welcome. But I do disagree with LBM and yourself.

For a guy that was under an incorrect impression concerning what the bag limit even is to go on to say that any cat over 70lbs are usually killed by Hunters in the EK strikes me as a total load of nonsense and a truly absurdist, hyperbolic statement at best. Please back this up with legit data if you can, that's nutzo! I presume you're just being colorful?

You stated you are new to the area correct? Well guys that have lived here and hunted here their whole life have a little better of an idea on whats going on with cats than a guy here 1 year. No offense. If you do not think there are guy here that kill practically every cat they tree you have the blinders on. Its not everybody but there is a group that just go to kill every cat. Talk to any old time cat hunter from the area, you might get an education.

[RadHimself]

Im assuming this is the same for other species suh as deer and bear?

[Linksman313]

didn't know it,,,and don't care,,thats my thought and comment
So why did you and Butthead even click on this thread??

[GoatGuy]

I figure polarized opinions are all over the place! I also figure that the Region 4 Cougar Hunt is just fine and is being managed well and in a sustainable way.

Cougars currently being managed for kitty mill. While likely sustainable, there are no real objectives, nothing about cougars, human-wildlife conflict, or ungulates.

Lots of anecdotes, which are likely unsupported by data, but they sound good when people say them lol.

[GoatGuy]

You stated you are new to the area correct? Well guys that have lived here and hunted here their whole life have a little better of an idea on whats going on with cats than a guy here 1 year. No offense. If you do not think there are guy here that kill practically every cat they tree you have the blinders on. Its not everybody but there is a group that just go to kill every cat. Talk to any old time cat hunter from the area, you might get an education.


Lol, yes some education - seems to depend on the individual.

BS seems to run rampant in that part of the world.

[Elkaholic]

Lol, yes some education - seems to depend on the individual.

BS seems to run rampant in that part of the world.

You seem to have a massive chip on your shoulder when it comes to this area, always with your nose up thinking you are better. What ever make you sleep at night GG. You are not the end all be all of bc wildlife, I know you think it but come on pull your head our of your arse. This stuff I am talking about does happen here, believe it or not thats your call. Cat hunting is a gong show here now with any tom pretty well being shot because its "decent" that is what it has come to, I can honestly say I have killed 2 cougars in 13 years, many I let go were killed by the next hound guy to come along. Cats don't live a long and prosperous life here. The moe is working on collecting info with the help of the local hound club here. So I hope all the data that is being collected is going to go to work for the management of the cats.

[GoatGuy]

You seem to have a massive chip on your shoulder when it comes to this area, always with your nose up thinking you are better. What ever make you sleep at night GG. You are not the end all be all of bc wildlife, I know you think it but come on pull your head our of your arse. This stuff I am talking about does happen here, believe it or not thats your call. Cat hunting is a gong show here now with any tom pretty well being shot because its "decent" that is what it has come to, I can honestly say I have killed 2 cougars in 13 years, many I let go were killed by the next hound guy to come along. Cats don't live a long and prosperous life here. The moe is working on collecting info with the help of the local hound club here. So I hope all the data that is being collected is going to go to work for the management of the cats.

Don't disagree on most of that. Agree you have some major issues.

The problem is there is no objective for cougars.

Under that is people who want so many different things, it is almost impossible to manage. Then there's the anecdotes.

[GoatGuy]

You seem to have a massive chip on your shoulder when it comes to this area, always with your nose up thinking you are better. What ever make you sleep at night GG. You are not the end all be all of bc wildlife, I know you think it but come on pull your head our of your arse. This stuff I am talking about does happen here, believe it or not thats your call. Cat hunting is a gong show here now with any tom pretty well being shot because its "decent" that is what it has come to, I can honestly say I have killed 2 cougars in 13 years, many I let go were killed by the next hound guy to come along. Cats don't live a long and prosperous life here. The moe is working on collecting info with the help of the local hound club here. So I hope all the data that is being collected is going to go to work for the management of the cats.


As far as the personal stuff goes, there are lines in the sand that seem to be crossed regularly.

Death threats, threatening to 'punch people in the head', shooting collared cougars, calling the COS and making false reports, spreading unsubstantiated rumours all cross that imaginary line. Then there's the people cussing others out for hunting in certain parts of Region 4, only to be found in those areas later with a client in the truck.

Certainly not pointing the finger at you, just informing you what comes out of that part of the world regularly. One thing to have a discussion, a whole 'nother to threaten someone, or make false reports to the COS.

Hope this gives you a bit different perspective/understanding.

[dracb]

don't no, not sure if they even send a tooth in any more, and from what I have been
told if they do depends to what lab.

All cougar are required to be CI'ed. A tooth and DNA sample are integral parts of CI process.Cougar CI's in region 4 are on an accelerated schedule, i.e. local CI within region 4 and within 4 days of kill.

[LBM]

All cougar are required to be CI'ed. A tooth and DNA sample are integral parts of CI process.Cougar CI's in region 4 are on an accelerated schedule, i.e. local CI within region 4 and within 4 days of kill.
Thanks no all that, I said I don't no if they even send the teeth in any more. Oh and all cougars are not CI

[LBM]

So not managing cougars, more like a natural, un-hunted structure.

Fair enough.

Certainly some polarizing opinions in the EK, as always.

No not like that at all, again you just make stuff up.
You say there is 2 trains I would say 3 there is the one you conduct, the Narrcissist train and there is a few that like to ride in your caboose.
Heck I wouldn't be surprised if this thread is actually your doing.
Its to bad you wont listen to others, the only one that loses is the wildlife but some are concerned about conservation while others have another agenda.

[LBM]

As far as the personal stuff goes, there are lines in the sand that seem to be crossed regularly.

Death threats, threatening to 'punch people in the head', shooting collared cougars, calling the COS and making false reports, spreading unsubstantiated rumours all cross that imaginary line. Then there's the people cussing others out for hunting in certain parts of Region 4, only to be found in those areas later with a client in the truck.

Certainly not pointing the finger at you, just informing you what comes out of that part of the world regularly. One thing to have a discussion, a whole 'nother to threaten someone, or make false reports to the COS.

Hope this gives you a bit different perspective/understanding.

This doesn't just apply to the cat world, you really don't have a clue what really goes on. Or you may make it sound that way.
After some of your comments in other threads and who you may associate with may make things clearer. I can see why some of
this does not concern you. Quit sad that's what hunting and outdoor recreation have come to.
I no your game and what your trying to get out of this.

[Salty]

:roll: :roll:

[604Stalker]

Popcorn anyone?

[GoatGuy]

No not like that at all, again you just make stuff up.
You say there is 2 trains I would say 3 there is the one you conduct, the Narrcissist train and there is a few that like to ride in your caboose.
Heck I wouldn't be surprised if this thread is actually your doing.
Its to bad you wont listen to others, the only one that loses is the wildlife but some are concerned about conservation while others have another agenda.


There are a few different perspectives as it relates to wildlife management, and in this case cougar management.

The question is: What are we managing cougars for? To minimize human-cougar conflict, balance ungulates/predators, maximizing cougar population growth, maximize cougar age for hunter harvest? Or maybe not manage at all, kind of like grizzly bears where you harvest a couple of year with the only objective that you don't impact the population.

The follow-up from question one would be: What kind of density should the cougar population be managed at?


Your response to that is: Quota on toms, more realistic quota on females, regional bag limit 1, 1 in 5 harvest, and extend pursuit season until March.

The questions about wildlife management/cougar management are left completely unanswered by the response. It's always prescriptive, kind of like a patient going into the doctors office asking for oxy..... won't tell the doctor why, medical history, pain levels, just "I need oxy".

Personally, don't mind if your opinion is you'd like to see minimal harvest on cougars, or other species - at least that's honest.

The rest of the personal stuff is situation normal.

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

You stated you are new to the area correct? Well guys that have lived here and hunted here their whole life have a little better of an idea on whats going on with cats than a guy here 1 year. No offense. If you do not think there are guy here that kill practically every cat they tree you have the blinders on. Its not everybody but there is a group that just go to kill every cat. Talk to any old time cat hunter from the area, you might get an education.

You may have a point... Or it may be more along with my local experience of 2+ years coupled with decades of experience being elsewhere all over the map in various Provinces and States for varying time periods. Eeverywhere I've been there are those nutters trying to kill everything they see and another contingent of old timers who are stuck in their ways to the extent that they go do the same thing in the same place in the same way year after year. Whatever the game species is, it doesn't make a living by being killed. In short - Game patterns Hunters and adapts. Sometimes, a fresh approach is what it takes!

Nothing wrong with trying various areas and/or moving about. The old time Cat Hunters in 7A I talked to around the time I first went on a Hunt as a kid haven't been all that different when it comes to ideas about what they do than the few Kootenay guys I've talked to about it in person, who are mostly way younger than an "old timer" but stated they basically grew up hunting over hounds here.

My point - I see tonnes of Cougar sign about, they are out there! If there used to be more, okay... But that just seems WAY overpopulated for the area. If the case and coupled with the attitudes of guys thinking Cougars are hurting their Deer/Elk hunts or whatever - Easy to see why some may take a kill any cat attitude, which is not an attitude I care to promote.

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

Thanks no all that, I said I don't no if they even send the teeth in any more. Oh and all cougars are not CI

All Cougars Hunted in BC are in fact CI! Even in the Kootenay, Omineca everywhere province wide. Koots just so happen to be on an excellent schedule. It's a well managed Game Species here.

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

No not like that at all, again you just make stuff up.
You say there is 2 trains I would say 3 there is the one you conduct, the Narrcissist train and there is a few that like to ride in your caboose.
Heck I wouldn't be surprised if this thread is actually your doing.
Its to bad you wont listen to others, the only one that loses is the wildlife but some are concerned about conservation while others have another agenda.

Nonsense and ad hominem attacks are not appreciated. Please be sure to keep it civil and respectful here. You are insulting myself big time as I am not a GoatGuy alterego, front or puppet. You are TOTALLY lacking in balls and spirit right now.

Furthermore, come back with some legit data please! I have yet to read anything from yourself that includes any valid data or anything to back up what you've been saying here. If you've got a point - make it! Otherwise, all you've been doing is trolling this thread and bothering folks.

[LBM]

All Cougars Hunted in BC are in fact CI! Even in the Kootenay, Omineca everywhere province wide. Koots just so happen to be on an excellent schedule. It's a well managed Game Species here.

You can go back and read what I wrote if you want, if you knew what goes on you would no not all dead cats are CI

[LBM]

Nonsense and ad hominem attacks are not appreciated. Please be sure to keep it civil and respectful here. You are insulting myself big time as I am not a GoatGuy alterego, front or puppet. You are TOTALLY lacking in balls and spirit right now.

Furthermore, come back with some legit data please! I have yet to read anything from yourself that includes any valid data or anything to back up what you've been saying here. If you've got a point - make it! Otherwise, all you've been doing is trolling this thread and bothering folks.

What data do you want. Have you posted any. Or does saying you see tonnes of sign count, which doesn't mean there is lots of cats.

[LBM]

There are a few different perspectives as it relates to wildlife management, and in this case cougar management.

The question is: What are we managing cougars for? To minimize human-cougar conflict, balance ungulates/predators, maximizing cougar population growth, maximize cougar age for hunter harvest? Or maybe not manage at all, kind of like grizzly bears where you harvest a couple of year with the only objective that you don't impact the population.

The follow-up from question one would be: What kind of density should the cougar population be managed at?


Your response to that is: Quota on toms, more realistic quota on females, regional bag limit 1, 1 in 5 harvest, and extend pursuit season until March.

The questions about wildlife management/cougar management are left completely unanswered by the response. It's always prescriptive, kind of like a patient going into the doctors office asking for oxy..... won't tell the doctor why, medical history, pain levels, just "I need oxy".

Personally, don't mind if your opinion is you'd like to see minimal harvest on cougars, or other species - at least that's honest.

The rest of the personal stuff is situation normal.

Again you only make up responses in your mind. I realize it is a disease and as I said a shame its at wildlifes expense, again some don't think it is just a game.

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

What data do you want. Have you posted any. Or does saying you see tonnes of sign count, which doesn't mean there is lots of cats.

Your reverse onus arguments and ad hominem model for approaching threads is nothing shy of trollism. What data do I want? Let's start with -

Where in BC and which Cougars are not on CI?

Furthermore, please answer the questions concerning EK Cougar numbers posed to you by others here. That'd be a fine start. If you have any specific questions for myself, please ask. I am not going to just post up random EK Cougar info for your amusement. You're getting real tedious, do it up or GTFO

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

Again you only make up responses in your mind. I realize it is a disease and as I said a shame its at wildlifes expense, again some don't think it is just a game.

WTF?!! Now you are saying GoatGuy is responsible for wildlife management in the province? Ridiculous.

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

Im assuming this is the same for other species suh as deer and bear?

Indeed, see my responses to this question as posed by r106 earlier in this thread.

[LBM]

Your reverse onus arguments and ad hominem model for approaching threads is nothing shy of trollism. What data do I want? Let's start with -

Where in BC and which Cougars are not on CI?

Furthermore, please answer the questions concerning EK Cougar numbers posed to you by others here. That'd be a fine start. If you have any specific questions for myself, please ask. I am not going to just post up random EK Cougar info for your amusement. You're getting real tedious, do it up or GTFO

Again cougars are killed and not CI can show you were one was throwing if you want the carcass.
Didn't see any question concerning EK cougar numbers posed to me by others where is it and will see if can answer it.
Last year there was aprox 144 cats killed in region 4 83 males and 61 female for your MU of 4-20 there was 6 male and 5 female
Any other questions.

[LBM]

WTF?!! Now you are saying GoatGuy is responsible for wildlife management in the province? Ridiculous.

Nope didnt say that all.

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

You can go back and read what I wrote if you want, if you knew what goes on you would no not all dead cats are CI

The point of this thread is the current regulations for Cougar Hunting as they stand in Region 4 at the time of this writing. Poaching, Cats that die from age disease or other causes including roadkill or status Indians are not governed by the regs that apply to BC Resident Hunters, which are the aspects being discussed here. Wildlife in conflict killings are reported to CO's and those cats are inspected.

You've stated your opinion concerning management, which is welcome! Those Harvest numbers you've expressed are interesting and constructive, thank you! Can you post the source (ideally a web link where others can find the info)? Those numbers sound sustainable and good harvest.

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

Again you only make up responses in your mind. I realize it is a disease and as I said a shame its at wildlifes expense, again some don't think it is just a game.

Here it reads to be that you are saying that this poster's opinion actually is at "wildlifes expense" which is the same as saying as it is GoatGuy that runs BC's wildlife resources! Hence my comment about that.

[GoatGuy]

There are a few different perspectives as it relates to wildlife management, and in this case cougar management.

The question is: What are we managing cougars for? To minimize human-cougar conflict, balance ungulates/predators, maximizing cougar population growth, maximize cougar age for hunter harvest? Or maybe not manage at all, kind of like grizzly bears where you harvest a couple of year with the only objective that you don't impact the population.

The follow-up from question one would be: What kind of density should the cougar population be managed at?


Your response to that is: Quota on toms, more realistic quota on females, regional bag limit 1, 1 in 5 harvest, and extend pursuit season until March.

The questions about wildlife management/cougar management are left completely unanswered by the response. It's always prescriptive, kind of like a patient going into the doctors office asking for oxy..... won't tell the doctor why, medical history, pain levels, just "I need oxy".



Again you only make up responses in your mind. I realize it is a disease and as I said a shame its at wildlifes expense, again some don't think it is just a game.

Back a few pages ago..................


#1 personal observation, harvest data, talking with biologists that say the same thing
#2 A more rounded age class of cats. Managed by MU with a realistic Quota for them
Quota on Toms should have been implemented years ago, more realistic quota on females
Regional bag limit of 1, go to a 1 in 5 limit
Pursuit till the end of March in the EK
That would be a start

Unless I'm logging in as LBM, Bayou, or whatever the latest handle is and using your account it appears that what was stated is exactly what you said. Perhaps someone hijacked your account and posted those things under your LBM account and you didn't read it while going through this thread? Alternatively, maybe you wrote that, in which case "you only make things up in your mind" probably wouldn't be accurate.

These are the two questions:

What are we managing cougars for? What kind of density should the cougar population be managed at?

Best to figure that out first, then worry about the seasons, bag limits, or quotas.

[GoatGuy]

This doesn't just apply to the cat world, you really don't have a clue what really goes on. Or you may make it sound that way.
After some of your comments in other threads and who you may associate with may make things clearer. I can see why some of
this does not concern you. Quit sad that's what hunting and outdoor recreation have come to.
I no your game and what your trying to get out of this.

If these are facts that are not accurate about 'what really goes on', please feel free to correct them.

Can't say I've seen this from other hunters - have seen it from anti-hunters though, so I guess this doesn't 'just apply to the cat world'. I will make it clear - this is not everyone, or a majority, but quite frankly there are some major issues and a pile of BS.

If you condone this type of behaviour, that's your choice.

[LBM]

If these are facts that are not accurate about 'what really goes on', please feel free to correct them.

Can't say I've seen this from other hunters - have seen it from anti-hunters though, so I guess this doesn't 'just apply to the cat world'. I will make it clear - this is not everyone, or a majority, but quite frankly there are some major issues and a pile of BS.

If you condone this type of behaviour, that's your choice.

What you mentioned in post #40, plus a heck of a lot more you didn't mention, doesn't just happen in the cat world as said but unfortunately in all hunting.
And no I do not condone it at all, as said find it sad that's what hunting and outdoor recreation have come to, people will and are willing to do a lot in there need
to kill something. Just because you are not there and don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

[LBM]

The point of this thread is the current regulations for Cougar Hunting as they stand in Region 4 at the time of this writing. Poaching, Cats that die from age disease or other causes including roadkill or status Indians are not governed by the regs that apply to BC Resident Hunters, which are the aspects being discussed here. Wildlife in conflict killings are reported to CO's and those cats are inspected.

You've stated your opinion concerning management, which is welcome! Those Harvest numbers you've expressed are interesting and constructive, thank you! Can you post the source (ideally a web link where others can find the info)? Those numbers sound sustainable and good harvest.
So what are you basing it on to say these numbers are sustainable. Again not all kills are CI, not all wildlife conflict killings are reported to COs and COs do not go check every one that is.
If certain user groups do not report there kills how does one really no what is being taken. What magical number do they pull out of the air for these other kills.

[Elkaholic]

Your reverse onus arguments and ad hominem model for approaching threads is nothing shy of trollism. What data do I want? Let's start with -

Where in BC and which Cougars are not on CI?

Furthermore, please answer the questions concerning EK Cougar numbers posed to you by others here. That'd be a fine start. If you have any specific questions for myself, please ask. I am not going to just post up random EK Cougar info for your amusement. You're getting real tedious, do it up or GTFO

Take yourself up to the MoE office in Cranbrook ask for the harvest numbers, they will give them to you. I have a sheet from 2 years back I misplaced the one from this past year.

[LBM]

Back a few pages ago..................



Unless I'm logging in as LBM, Bayou, or whatever the latest handle is and using your account it appears that what was stated is exactly what you said. Perhaps someone hijacked your account and posted those things under your LBM account and you didn't read it while going through this thread? Alternatively, maybe you wrote that, in which case "you only make things up in your mind" probably wouldn't be accurate.

These are the two questions:

What are we managing cougars for? What kind of density should the cougar population be managed at?

Best to figure that out first, then worry about the seasons, bag limits, or quotas.

Don't no who you are logging in as these days, that's up to you, yes the comment is accurate for you only high light certain things and exclude some.
If you look at the last one even says that would be a start.

[GoatGuy]

So what are you basing it on to say these numbers are sustainable. Again not all kills are CI, not all wildlife conflict killings are reported to COs and COs do not go check every one that is.
If certain user groups do not report there kills how does one really no what is being taken. What magical number do they pull out of the air for these other kills.

Not all, but the overwhelming majority are.

Are we supposed to collar every cougar when it's born so we know when it's killed?

Get real.

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

Take yourself up to the MoE office in Cranbrook ask for the harvest numbers, they will give them to you. I have a sheet from 2 years back I misplaced the one from this past year.

Will do! I was just there the other day so will get 'em at my leisure! Good advice, cheers.

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

Not all, but the overwhelming majority are.

Are we supposed to collar every cougar when it's born so we know when it's killed?

Get real.

+1

At this point the guy is being ridiculous, shy of the user being somehow mentally incapacitated and/or under the age of 10 years old.

Lbm the question you ask of me is self explanatory. Decade after decade after decade (ad infinum, just about) Cougar are taken and there's still plenty of them about. If you wish to debate Cougar management feel free to start your own thread about it right here on HBC or wherever else, not what this thread is about.

[GoatGuy]

Will do! I was just there the other day so will get 'em at my leisure! Good advice, cheers.

Which harvest stats would you like? MU/year/sex

Can post them

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

Which harvest stats would you like? MU/year/sex

Can post them

Do you have a link to a list of such data available? In other words - All of the above.

[LBM]

Not all, but the overwhelming majority are.

Are we supposed to collar every cougar when it's born so we know when it's killed?

Get real.

Its quit simple some say all cats are CI, I just stated there not.
Why get all worked up about it.
I never said any thing about collaring kittens.

[LBM]

+1

At this point the guy is being ridiculous, shy of the user being somehow mentally incapacitated and/or under the age of 10 years old.

Lbm the question you ask of me is self explanatory. Decade after decade after decade (ad infinum, just about) Cougar are taken and there's still plenty of them about. If you wish to debate Cougar management feel free to start your own thread about it right here on HBC or wherever else, not what this thread is about.
Interesting You wont really answer the question, don't like what others say, and throw out insults, that sounds familiar. So I think you have answered post #43 Thank you.
So what is this thread about you asked for thoughts and comments.

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

Interesting You wont really answer the question, don't like what others say, and throw out insults, that sounds familiar. So I think you have answered post #43 Thank you.
So what is this thread about you asked for thoughts and comments.

Thoughts and comment on the MU Clusters and reg interpretations, not what qoutas should be et al or whether the Cougar Hunt should be a thing. Mentioning your opinion on that or outside stuff is fine, yet not page after page of tedious cyclical rhetoric.

Straight up - you are not for real and are simply trolling this thread. You've nothing to thank me for, anyone with even a hint of brain can see a troll. Enough, you had your say about wanting to ban cougar hunting or whatever. GTFO

[LBM]

Thoughts and comment on the MU Clusters and reg interpretations, not what qoutas should be et al or whether the Cougar Hunt should be a thing. Mentioning your opinion on that or outside stuff is fine, yet not page after page of tedious cyclical rhetoric.

Straight up - you are not for real and are simply trolling this thread. You've nothing to thank me for, anyone with even a hint of brain can see a troll. Enough, you had your say about wanting to ban cougar hunting or whatever. GTFO
Again just get tired of people making stuff up in there head, where did I say want cougar hunting banned. Better regulated YES. Since looking for cats is pretty much all I do in the winters for around the last 30 years, why would I want it banned, if you would read I would like the pursuit season longer. So when you say you have been here for 2 years and say everything is fine it gets a bit old. How do you talk about MU clusters and reg interperations with out talking about quotas etc. Your fine with how things are Im not so that upsets you.

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

We have different ideas of what "better regulated" is, not a big deal. You are the one advocating for negative change in a highly ineffectual manner. What I am saying is that the regs are great as is. Ministry responsible agrees that the current regs are good or the regs would read differently. Pursuit seasons are the kind of things antis argue for and your style and approach strikes me as that of an anti hunter, not a real cat person.

As I said - If you want Cougar regs changed go start your own thread about it, write your MLA complain to the ministry or whatever.. I do not have time to feed trolls and explain reality and everything under the sun to you. This is not an anti hunting forum and you did not despute being other users in the past such as bayou who are banned from HBC.

[LBM]

We have different ideas of what "better regulated" is, not a big deal. You are the one advocating for negative change in a highly ineffectual manner. What I am saying is that the regs are great as is. Ministry responsible agrees that the current regs are good or the regs would read differently. Pursuit seasons are the kind of things antis argue for and your style and approach strikes me as that of an anti hunter, not a real cat person.

As I said - If you want Cougar regs changed go start your own thread about it, write your MLA complain to the ministry or whatever.. I do not have time to feed trolls and explain reality and everything under the sun to you. This is not an anti hunting forum and you did not despute being other users in the past such as bayou who are banned from HBC.

Again just gets to hard disputing what people make up in there heads. You haven't explained any thing actually .
Hope you get want out of this thread GG. Have a good night.

[GoatGuy]

Reg 4-04 1977-2014



Total
Male
Female
Unknown


1
0
0
1


1
1




0
0




2
2




0
0




1
1




0
0




3
1
2



2
2




2
2




2
1
1



0





3
3




3
3




5
5




4
2
2



7
5
2



6
3
2
1


1

1



1
1




0





1
1




4
3
1



1
1




4
4




3
2
1



0





0





0





4
2
2



1
1




3
3




3
3




2
2

[GoatGuy]

420 Resident Hunter Cougar Harvest


Res Har
Male
Fem
UK


2
2
0
0


0
0
0
0


10
5
5
0


6
4
2
0


8
3
5
0


1
1
0
0


2
0
2
0


1
1
0
0


2
2
0
0


1
1
0
0


1
1
0
0


2
2
0
0


3
3
0
0


0
0
0
0


0
0
0
0


3
3
0
0


1
1
0
0


8
7
1
0


2
2
0
0


4
3
1
0


15
11
4
0


11
7
4
0


7
5
2
0


9
6
3
0


4
3
1
0


3
3
0
0


3
1
2
0


4
4
0
0


1
0
1
0


4
3
1
0


5
5
0
0


3
3
0
0


4
3
1
0


6
5
1
0


7
7
0
0


0
0
0
0


10
8
2
0


4
2
2
0


8
4
4
0

[GoatGuy]

NR har 4-20 1976-2014


NR Har
Male
Fem
UK


0
0
0
0


0
0
0
0


0
0
0
0


0
0
0
0


0
0
0
0


0
0
0
0


0
0
0
0


0
0
0
0


0
0
0
0


0
0
0
0


0
0
0
0


0
0
0
0


0
0
0
0


1
1
0
0


1
0
1
0


1
1
0
0


0
0
0
0


0
0
0
0


0
0
0
0


3
3
0
0


1
0
1
0


3
2
1
0


4
0
4
0


1
0
1
0


2
2
0
0


3
2
1
0


1
0
1
0


1
1
0
0


0
0
0
0


0
0
0
0


0
0
0
0


3
3
0
0


3
3
0
0


3
2
1
0


7
2
5
0


2
2
0
0


7
6
1
0


5
3
2
0


3
2
1
0

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

Again just gets to hard disputing what people make up in there heads. You haven't explained any thing actually .
Hope you get want out of this thread GG. Have a good night.

I actually did that long before you came through and started messing about with it. There's no onus on me to explain anything in the least as that was done in my first and previous posts. Furthermore, GoatGuy has just come through with Cougar harvest data for all to see. Everyone can make up their own mind per the qaulity of Hunt... Mine says Cougar harvest in these MU's has been anything but excessive!

[GoatGuy]

Hope you get want out of this thread GG.

Can't say anything new has come out of it.

Eight pages later you've told us what you want for hunting regulations, quota, and that people are shooting cats and not reporting/ci them, including the COS.

Still haven't said what you think the objective is for cougar management, and what the population objectives should be.

Not that productive.

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

GoatGuy,

Thanks for the data! Tried to say so via PM but your inbox is full.

Very good stuff! Looks like a great time to be out Hunting Cougar. BC populations appear to be thriving and most awesome animals are taken each year all around the Province, including Region 4.

[LBM]

Can't say anything new has come out of it.

Eight pages later you've told us what you want for hunting regulations, quota, and that people are shooting cats and not reporting/ci them, including the COS.

Still haven't said what you think the objective is for cougar management, and what the population objectives should be.

Not that productive.
Again quit making things up I never said the COs are shooting cats and not reporting them, I said not all wildlife conflicts are reported to them and that they don't go check every one that is.
If you also read not allowed to discuss objectivies for cougar management and population objectivies , well at least Im not so maybe you explain your thoughts. You do say its managed for a kitty mill so maybe you can explain that or how you come up with that. Show the data etc

[LBM]

NR har 4-20 1976-2014


NR Har

Male

Fem

UK

















































































1

1





1


1




1

1























3

3





1


1




3

2

1




4


4




1


1




2

2





3

2

1




1


1




1

1























3

3





3

3





3

2

1




7

2

5




2

2





7

6

1




5

3

2




3

2

1






Not to sure about your data here, so guessing the last line is 2014. The cougar season covers 2 years so the data is usally for both but yours may be broken into one.
For MU 4-20 the 2012/13 season there was 17 known kills
2013/14 season there was 15 known kills
2014/15 season there was 9 known kills

[GoatGuy]

Not to sure about your data here, so guessing the last line is 2014. The cougar season covers 2 years so the data is usally for both but yours may be broken into one.
For MU 4-20 the 2012/13 season there was 17 known kills
2013/14 season there was 15 known kills
2014/15 season there was 9 known kills

NR harvest means non-resident, res means resident.

[GoatGuy]

Again quit making things up I never said the COs are shooting cats and not reporting them, I said not all wildlife conflicts are reported to them and that they don't go check every one that is.
If you also read not allowed to discuss objectivies for cougar management and population objectivies , well at least Im not so maybe you explain your thoughts. You do say its managed for a kitty mill so maybe you can explain that or how you come up with that. Show the data etc

Apologies.

COS does not check every cougar that is reported through wildlife conflict and as a result they are not reported - understood.

Leave the management and population objectives up to people. Not sure where the interest is on the issue. Should we be managing for human-wildlife conflict, ungulates, low density populations/high density populations, so people with dogs can chase cats, or people with dogs can shoot big cats? All different objectives, management strategies and different outcomes.

Currently managing for nothing other than young cougar production.

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

The poll never closes! *BUMP*

It's about the M.U. Clusters (way of grouping M.U.'S into a common bag limit within a region). Used Region 4 Cougar as an example but it's in other places for other species in the regs, too.

[horshur]

Apologies.

COS does not check every cougar that is reported through wildlife conflict and as a result they are not reported - understood.

Leave the management and population objectives up to people. Not sure where the interest is on the issue. Should we be managing for human-wildlife conflict, ungulates, low density populations/high density populations, so people with dogs can chase cats, or people with dogs can shoot big cats? All different objectives, management strategies and different outcomes.

Currently managing for nothing other than young cougar production.

no point managing for ungulate populations..no habitat.

[houndogger]

no point managing for ungulate populations..no habitat.

Lmao bam case closed!

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

Thnaks to all who've voted it up!!!

If you haven't please do.

[GoatGuy]

Lmao bam case closed!


no point managing for ungulate populations..no habitat.




Sounds great, then what is the value/role/purpose of cougar hunting?

[horshur]

Sounds great, then what is the value/role/purpose of cougar hunting?

what's the meaning of life??

[horshur]

All it takes is a google search to see the "Science" from down south. Did you know that traffic incidents go down and thus insurance claims when cougar populations are high?. Probably using sportsmens money for the study too. A poor houndsmen could be found at fault for killing the Tom that would have killed the fawn that grew up and jumped in front of the minivan killing a family of 4...I can't sleep at night thinking about it.

[GoatGuy]

All it takes is a google search to see the "Science" from down south. Did you know that traffic incidents go down and thus insurance claims when cougar populations are high?. Probably using sportsmens money for the study too. A poor houndsmen could be found at fault for killing the Tom that would have killed the fawn that grew up and jumped in front of the minivan killing a family of 4...I can't sleep at night thinking about it.
Lol,

Things to think about.

The work in the US is based on the fact that many jurisdictions cannot manage their wt population through hunting (things like a tag a day have been tried) and cougars have been extirpated through much of their range. Too much supply not enough demand.

Hunters, and in particular houndsmen, are all over the map on this stuff. There was a time where hunters were integral to wildlife management, and conservation. In some circles hunters role is changing, often it is self-induced.

The question I keep coming back to is: What is the role of cougar hunting in wildlife management?

[LBM]

NR harvest means non-resident, res means resident.

Yes I realize that, but as stated the season is split between 2 years so is that what your data shows or is it
for just one year. Is the last line for 2014 only or for the 2013/14 season or 2014/15 season.

[LBM]

Apologies.

COS does not check every cougar that is reported through wildlife conflict and as a result they are not reported - understood.

Leave the management and population objectives up to people. Not sure where the interest is on the issue. Should we be managing for human-wildlife conflict, ungulates, low density populations/high density populations, so people with dogs can chase cats, or people with dogs can shoot big cats? All different objectives, management strategies and different outcomes.

Currently managing for nothing other than young cougar production.
Again could you explain why they are currently managing for nothing other then young cougar production, and how you come up with this.
thanks

[Elkaholic]

Lol,

Things to think about.

The work in the US is based on the fact that many jurisdictions cannot manage their wt population through hunting (things like a tag a day have been tried) and cougars have been extirpated through much of their range. Too much supply not enough demand.

Hunters, and in particular houndsmen, are all over the map on this stuff. There was a time where hunters were integral to wildlife management, and conservation. In some circles hunters role is changing, often it is self-induced.

The question I keep coming back to is: What is the role of cougar hunting in wildlife management?

Really what is the role of managing cougars in regards to wildlife? How about we manage the rest of the pie, so we cannot let other portions on the pie get out of whack so to speak. It gives hunter opportunity, it helps manage the population and makes people happy (sort of lol). That would be my take on the role of cougar hunting anyways. The bio here told me last week they are managing for density. That's it.

[GoatGuy]

Again could you explain why they are currently managing for nothing other then young cougar production, and how you come up with this.
thanks

Harvest, quota, age, density estimate, movement

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

"Management entails the protection and maintenance of existing cougar populations, with due consideration for human safety and the legitimate protection of domestic stock. The importance of the cougar as an integral part of the wildlife of British Columbia cannot be overemphasized, and careful management must be maintained. The cougar's importance is two fold:
(a) As a legitimate form of outdoor recreation for the hunter and non-hunter alike; and
(b) As a regulator of its major prey populations."

This is what the BC government states concerning Cougar management. The qoute is taken from Cougar in British Columbia ( http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documents/cougar.htm ). A document from 1994, this has been the practice and idea concerning management in this Province for many many years now.

I support these ideas and do believe it to be working out quite well.

[LBM]

Harvest, quota, age, density estimate, movement

Interesting some of that could be used to show over harvest, declining numbers amoung other things as well.
Could you post up the data for the density estimate by MU for the EK
as well as the age data, hounddogger had asked about that earlier.
Thanks

[GoatGuy]

Interesting some of that could be used to show over harvest, declining numbers amoung other things as well.
Could you post up the data for the density estimate by MU for the EK
as well as the age data, hounddogger had asked about that earlier.
Thanks

You'll have to ask other folks in the know.

Interest level in getting threatened by a wingnut = very low.

[LBM]

You'll have to ask other folks in the know.

Interest level in getting threatened by a wingnut = very low.

Its all right didn't expect you to provide anything that's usual, when you do its not accurate or can contradict what you say.
To much of what you say is based on emotion, social issues or personal agenda which = no help to wildlife.

[houndogger]

I know the average age for region 1 can ask for the region your interested in if you want?

[GoatGuy]

Its all right didn't expect you to provide anything that's usual, when you do its not accurate or can contradict what you say.
To much of what you say is based on emotion, social issues or personal agenda which = no help to wildlife.

Data is data.

Just being honest - interest in getting threatened is very low.

You can ask gov, but no guarantees. Dealing with the wingnuts is a wide ranging problem.

Sounds like there's a few people who plan on 'punching people in the head'..........

[LBM]

Data is data.

Just being honest - interest in getting threatened is very low.

You can ask gov, but no guarantees. Dealing with the wingnuts is a wide ranging problem.

Sounds like there's a few people who plan on 'punching people in the head'..........

Don't have a clue what your saying, but name calling and threats are pretty coming from you.

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

Hey man - If folks go around challenging to matches and other decline or get KO'd, that's just the way it goes! lol For boxing forums google Floyd Mayweather.

Vote in the pole!

Thank You

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

I know the average age for region 1 can ask for the region your interested in if you want?
Ask if you'd like! What do you figure the Region 1 age to be? I'll ask too when it is convenient for me to do so. Haven't been by the Ministry office lately.

[LBM]

Hey man - If folks go around challenging to matches and other decline or get KO'd, that's just the way it goes! lol For boxing forums google Floyd Mayweather.

Vote in the pole!

Thank You

As I have said before its a shame what hunting and outdoor recreation have come to, but if you and GG think violence and making threats to people because of there views is ok that is your choice,

[GoatGuy]

As I have said before its a shame what hunting and outdoor recreation have come to, but if you and GG think violence and making threats to people because of there views is ok that is your choice,

Want and have no part of it.

Seems to be a few bad apples who are cougar hunters that have taken it up and do it regularly.

As a result, no talkie, no data. Gov probably in the same boat.

As said before, the only other folks I've been threatened by are antis. Good company.

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

As I have said before its a shame what hunting and outdoor recreation have come to, but if you and GG think violence and making threats to people because of there views is ok that is your choice,
Troll! I never threatened anybody. I'd never do that online! It's ball-less and shows no spirit. From here on on out, you'll be ignored by I.

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

Thank you, Thank You!!!

I have asked for votes and am very pleased to see more fine folks responding in the poll.

Again, please do so if you haven't.

Cheers!

[GoatGuy]

http://missoulian.com/lifestyles/recreation/mountain-lion-count-goes-digital-in-montana/article_beeb9e42-c4f2-57d6-82b8-2f44ba8c4128.html

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

what's the meaning of life??

To have, develop or otherwise obtain the ability to love without judgement. Also to go Hunting!

Votes please everyone! :D

They can be a belated HBC xmas present.

Thanks!

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

Going for the thread bump here in my 666'th HBC post!

*VOTES*

?

:D

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

It's a new year and this poll could use some new voters!

Thanks again to all have contributed thus far.

:arrow: VOTE