White Tail And Mule Deer According to Valerius Geist

[blacklab]

I was going to attach this to the other white tail thread. As a lot of people her are quick to quote Geist as the all knowing deer authority.
It is obvious they have never read what he actually has to say about the relationship between white tail and mule deer.

In chapter one of his book "Mule Deer Country" he states, and I quote:

"The mule deer (Odocoileus hemionus) is a flashy newcomer on the North American scene, a descendant of the successful old-timer, the white-tailed deer. And, because of unusual circumstances in its evolution, we say that the mule deer descended not once, but twice, from the whitetail, as will be explained. We suspect, too, that the white-tailed deer may ultimately be responsible for the mule deer's demise as a species. The paradox of two separate genetic origins is but one remarkable and peculiar aspect of the mule deer's story and of how this deer came to be. No less intriguing is the idea that the whitetail, the mule deer's progenitor, may cause its genetic oblivion. In any discussion of the life of the mule deer, then, it is essential to look first at the history of its ancestor, the white-tailed deer."
"The white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) is the oldest of all the deer species in the western hemisphere, and that by a very large margin...."

In the final chapter of his book Geist writes:

"What can be done to save the mule deer?
There are a number of responses possible, all hard decisions and none very palatable. Exterminating white-tailed deer on mule deer ranges or manipulating habitat on a massive scale to deprive white-tailed deer of security are neither practical nor feasible solutions. Likewise, promulgating hunting regulations that would affect a decrease in the number of large white-tailed bucks and allow a relatively large number of large mule deer bucks is hardly a cheerful prospect for hunters. It would mean foregoing virtually all hunting of large mule deer bucks where mule and white-tailed deer overlap. Clearly, gaining public support for such a management policy would require a herculean effort. In the meantime, however, we can assuredly expect mule deer will continue to lose ground to the whitetail."

If you can read and comprehend what Geist has written, you will realize the white tail deer is not a newcomer or an invasive species,
It is the "Real Deer of North America".

As far a trying to exterminate the white tail to save the mule deer, then you have to follow what he says about stopping the hunting of large mule deer bucks.
You can't have your cake and eat it too!

[adriaticum]

Yes, the same guys who are shedding tears over mule deer would probably do the same over neanderthals and make sure to shoot human females a lot :mrgreen:

[Ddog]

its a very good read, and obvious a lot of people haven't read it as they believe mule deer are our only indigenous species. some of it may not make exact sense to people but a very good read that i suggest people do.

[Wild one]

Going to make some popcorn lol

[ACE]

Also explained fully in the biology textbook ...... 'Mule and Black-tailed Deer of North America' ​
Developed in cooperation with U.S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE, FOREST SERVICE
Compiled and edited by Olaf C. Wallmo
ISBN 0-8032-4715-X

[HarryToolips]

By having a wt doe season, were actually making the whitetail population healthier overall, and not allowing them to increase at an out of control rate...meanwhile, they are still expanding their range in BC, so no, were not exterminating them..

[Whonnock Boy]

Interesting comments, but is Mr. Gheist not speaking in terms related to thousands of years with words like "evolution", "ancestor", and "descendants"? I suspect he is, and I question how much humans have impacted the increased spread of whitetail populations.

[blacklab]

My other white tail thread has pretty much hit bottom. Went a lot further than I expected, and did what I wanted it to do.

Now I think it's time people went back and read the entry to this one, particularly the part that asks "what can be done to save mule deer"?
Geist is the leading and most quoted Mule deer scientist, in North America. Unfortunately BC wildlife managers will only quote him when it fits their political agenda.
Funny this thread only went one page. I guess people don't want to look at science that might stop them from taking a big mule deer.
A lot of people are all in favour of reducing white tail numbers.
How does everybody feel about not hunting large Mule deer bucks?

[GoatGuy]

Geist is not the leading and most quoted mule deer scientist in North America.

If you want to be up on the latest on hybridization and mule deer ecology check out Jim Heffelfinger and Mark Hurley................... they are a couple of the folks leading the science on mule deer.

Val is a great guy and has done great work, but what we have today with modern science is miles ahead of anything even possible with the tools/technology Val had in his day.

And what you are selling today is not necessarily supported with today's science.

[Brez]

For the few who care to read this, I have noticed in regions 4 and 8 that the whitetail have followed the logging to the higher elevations and are in places that I've never seen them before. Whitetails living their summers in the 6000' to 6500' elevations was unheard of, to me and my mates, 30 years ago. Now, they dominate on our trail cams and early season hunting observations. We used to hunt mule deer exclusively and in the alpine and sub-alpine and would never see whitetails there.
I believe that humans have impacted and accelerated wildlife movements greatly, as can be seen by the spread of wolves.

[Chuck]

My personal opinion regarding the disappearance of Mule deer from their former range isn't so much the Whitetail itself, rather a combination of circumstances, as I see it. Human encroachment on their habitat I place at the top of the list. This entails everything that I can imagine; from clear cut logging to just passing by and jumping them out of their beds. I've watched Mulies and Whities near each other on the same slope and they seemed alright with that. I also have seen where a herd of elk have moved into a Mulie winter range, and overbrowsed it, thus moving out the wintering Mulies to someplace else that probably wasn't to their requirements. I think that the two deer species fill two different niches, whereas the elk conflict more directly with their winter food supply.

[GoatGuy]

Here is a very easy to read article by Heffelfinger:

http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/blogs/hybridization-tail-whitetails-mule-deer

This is some hardcore science wrapped up in a very short summary.


And FYI, if you talk to Val about mule deer he will also tell you HABITAT, HABITAT, HABITAT in the absence of white-tailed deer. He will also point the finger very squarely at white-tailed deer. He is not a big fan of white-tailed deer and not supportive of 4 pts mule deer seasons either - something that is debated endlessly on here lol.

[Dannybuoy]

I personally find it difficult to believe the Mule deer descended from Whitetails .... it took a few seconds to find that not all science agrees with Geist . An example quote
" Of course, we need more study to see if Geist is actually correct. All the studies on deer molecular evolution have examined mitochondrial DNA, which can lead to massive errors. "

[Brez]

I have been hunting northern Alberta (Slave Lake and east) for the past 20 years and have never seen a mule deer there even though my hunter host, who has lived there all of his 62 years, said that the whitetails are new comers and that it was exclusively mule deer in his younger days. Apparently they were confused the first time they shot a whitetail and thought it was some crossbreed with a moose or something.

[Bugle M In]

For the few who care to read this, I have noticed in regions 4 and 8 that the whitetail have followed the logging to the higher elevations and are in places that I've never seen them before. Whitetails living their summers in the 6000' to 6500' elevations was unheard of, to me and my mates, 30 years ago. Now, they dominate on our trail cams and early season hunting observations. We used to hunt mule deer exclusively and in the alpine and sub-alpine and would never see whitetails there.
I believe that humans have impacted and accelerated wildlife movements greatly, as can be seen by the spread of wolves.

Yup, I see exactly what you are seeing as well, totally agree.
As much as I know that logging is important to our province's economy, and to the many that work in this field,
and I know that there are many on here, who work in the industry, but, I think "logging" has added some "major effects" to our wildlife
and the problems they are having now.
Yes, at 1st it was a benefit, due to "fire suppression".
But now, over years and years of logging happening, day in and day out, roads crisscrossing all over the place like "spider webs", allowing access everywhere.
And now since the late 90's, due in part to the beetle kill, huge swaths of land literally logged away.
Hate to say it, but, I really do believe "logging" has now attributed to a large degree, the other problems we are seeing.
It's helped the Preds, it's helped the hunter, it's allowed some wildlife to venture into areas they never would have.
And it has also lead to a change to the way some migrate.
Don't wish to bash anybody in the filed of forestry, as I have a friend in it, and we all need to work, and they don't mean to directly
be a cause of the problem.
But, IMO, logging is not what it once was.

[.264winmag]

Yup, I see exactly what you are seeing as well, totally agree.
As much as I know that logging is important to our province's economy, and to the many that work in this field,
and I know that there are many on here, who work in the industry, but, I think "logging" has added some "major effects" to our wildlife
and the problems they are having now.
Yes, at 1st it was a benefit, due to "fire suppression".
But now, over years and years of logging happening, day in and day out, roads crisscrossing all over the place like "spider webs", allowing access everywhere.
And now since the late 90's, due in part to the beetle kill, huge swaths of land literally logged away.
Hate to say it, but, I really do believe "logging" has now attributed to a large degree, the other problems we are seeing.
It's helped the Preds, it's helped the hunter, it's allowed some wildlife to venture into areas they never would have.
And it has also lead to a change to the way some migrate.
Don't wish to bash anybody in the filed of forestry, as I have a friend in it, and we all need to work, and they don't mean to directly
be a cause of the problem.
But, IMO, logging is not what it once was.

If we stopped logging all together I believe game #ers would decrease. Unless we let the natural fires burn. We wouldn't be talking beetle kill at all if the forest fires had kept em at bay. Logging does improve habitat and game #rs, seen it far too many times to believe otherwise.

[GoatGuy]

If we stopped logging all together I believe game #ers would decrease. Unless we let the natural fires burn. We wouldn't be talking beetle kill at all if the forest fires had kept em at bay. Logging does improve habitat and game #rs, seen it far too many times to believe otherwise.


Logging can improve habitat (not does), for sure for some species - but it depends on the species.

Are there better ways to log if we are concerned about wildlife, particularly ungulates? Yes, absolutely.

[ACE]

Think of the logger the next time you reach for the toilet paper .....

[Whonnock Boy]

Yes Ace, I think we all understand where our $hit tickets come from, along with a myriad of other products, but that doesn't negate the impact that logging has on our ecosystem.
Think of the logger the next time you reach for the toilet paper .....

[Bugle M In]

Yes Ace, I think we all understand where our $hit tickets come from, along with a myriad of other products, but that doesn't negate the impact that logging has on our ecosystem.

x2,

I know my comments would be opposed by some, if not many on here.
Like I said, I understand the economics, and ya, what I wipe with etc.
Just saying, some of the logging practices are not the best for wildlife in BC.
And for thinking about the logger, hell, I watch 1 machine and "1 Operator" tear down a whole hillside in 1 day.
How many "old school loggers/ tree fallers" were hired years ago.
Anyways, back to the OP, and some of the things GG is saying Heffelfinger is saying.
And again, I do care about the loggers.

[Salty]

If we stopped logging all together I believe game #ers would decrease. Unless we let the natural fires burn. We wouldn't be talking beetle kill at all if the forest fires had kept em at bay. Logging does improve habitat and game #rs, seen it far too many times to believe otherwise.

I'll second that. It also makes a shit load of roads unfortunately which helps 2 and 4 legged predators. But they're getting a lot better at completely nuking a lot of the minor spur roads when they're done, as in digging them up with a hoe and planting trees. A lot of bad things happened before anyone gave a shit about the environment but today's methods are pretty damn good IMO, always room for a little improvement just like anything else.

[Bugle M In]

It's not so much the methods that are at the issue of logging, although I liked the way they did it pre-96 or was it pre-98(cleaner)
The bigger problem is since the Pine Beetle, and the logging that has resulted from that.
You can't call them "Cut Blocks" anymore.
1 here and 1 there, with a lot of "old growth" in between.
If I were to show people where I hunt for Mule Deer in Reg 3 (which I won't), with images from google earth.....
It is beyond the imagination at this point.
I see more timber gone than still growing or replanted....and they ain't done.
I think they call it the "Fir Beetle" now.
too much of one thing is...too much.
If it had been fire, my god, the countless miles you could have walked, and no vehicle in site.
No vehicles, less 2 legged Preds.
But, it is just 1 of the problems of many for the wildlife, but boy, those wolves sure like to use the roads as well.

[Salty]

Ya the beetle kill is another kettle of fish. That's dramatically changed much of BC. But nature does that kind of thing once in a while I guess. Not that we weren't a big part of it happening by putting out every forest fire for decades leading to massive areas of over mature and a lot of dead pine.

[Rattler]

What can be done to save mule deer? Some thoughts:
1. Somehow remove politics from wildlife management? Stop managing for single species only such as Caribou.
2. Improve summer and winter range habitat. Perhaps either increase tag or hunting lic costs to pay for assoc costs( burning).
3. Reduce access... Increase AMA's in critical habitat areas. Not popular, but a culture change is needed...tones of areas to atv IMO.
4. Stop managing EK and WK the same. Completely different habitats and animal pops.
5. Start aggressive predator control programs(helicopter). Should be okay to shoot wolves to save MD and not just Caribou.

[HarryToolips]

^^^^^all very good points IMO...they will all take $$$, but hopefully one day it will happen..

[HarryToolips]

If we stopped logging all together I believe game #ers would decrease. Unless we let the natural fires burn. We wouldn't be talking beetle kill at all if the forest fires had kept em at bay. Logging does improve habitat and game #rs, seen it far too many times to believe otherwise.
I agree, logging in moderation is good for ungulates, it creates a lot of forage for them- I even had a regional biologist tell me logging is 2nd best only to forest fires in that it's good for deer, moose, and elk..but like everything, it's got to be in moderation - it would be nice if they left a little more old growth, and deactivated more spur roads better..

[Bugle M In]

Sadly, I found out now, that my favorite Mule Deer area, which is "Definitive Winter Range" is going to be logged and cleared.
What worries me, is where are the deer to go from there????
They need that forest canopy, to escape deep snow cover at times.
Plus, from November on, I see many of them eating the lichen from the north face of standing trees.
Something I suspect these deer feed on quite a bit during the winter.
Once those trees are gone, so is that lichen, and then????
The plateau above has very little old growth, and most of the replants are only about 15 ft high at best now, with most of the
area leveled clean.
I was actually shocked that this area was not protected from logging.
FN Band in the area is also trying to prevent it, as they too know the importance of the area.
Oddly, the area about 6 to 8 years ago, had ribbons all over saying "Wildlife Management Area" (or something to that effect).
But, now, it will be a full scale operation, talking to the girl who was in there from the Company.
Mule Deer in that area must be shaking their heads as well....
Every time they turn around, another stand of trees is gone, and it has been going that way since '85, and many hunters and
FN in the area, have also seen how the deer have changed the way they migrate.
Generations of one hunting family, who have hunted there for years, are starting to abandon the area, looking for "greener" pastures.
And the patches of old growth that are standing, are now overcrowded with "windfall", and yes, due to logging and to some degree
pine beetle.
Photographs wouldn't due it justice, only 360 video I suppose, of the plateau.
What is done is done, now I am wondering, will anyone come back to "thin out" the new transplants?
Or, do we have to wait til mother nature allows some to grow while other die off??
They seem to be planted to 3 feet apart.
Doesn't seem overly "natural" to me.
A lot different than a "fire".

[dougan]

Sadly, I found out now, that my favorite Mule Deer area, which is "Definitive Winter Range" is going to be logged and cleared.
What worries me, is where are the deer to go from there????
They need that forest canopy, to escape deep snow cover at times.
Plus, from November on, I see many of them eating the lichen from the north face of standing trees.
Something I suspect these deer feed on quite a bit during the winter.
Once those trees are gone, so is that lichen, and then????
The plateau above has very little old growth, and most of the replants are only about 15 ft high at best now, with most of the
area leveled clean.
I was actually shocked that this area was not protected from logging.
FN Band in the area is also trying to prevent it, as they too know the importance of the area.
Oddly, the area about 6 to 8 years ago, had ribbons all over saying "Wildlife Management Area" (or something to that effect).
But, now, it will be a full scale operation, talking to the girl who was in there from the Company.
Mule Deer in that area must be shaking their heads as well....
Every time they turn around, another stand of trees is gone, and it has been going that way since '85, and many hunters and
FN in the area, have also seen how the deer have changed the way they migrate.
Generations of one hunting family, who have hunted there for years, are starting to abandon the area, looking for "greener" pastures.
And the patches of old growth that are standing, are now overcrowded with "windfall", and yes, due to logging and to some degree
pine beetle.
Photographs wouldn't due it justice, only 360 video I suppose, of the plateau.
What is done is done, now I am wondering, will anyone come back to "thin out" the new transplants?
Or, do we have to wait til mother nature allows some to grow while other die off??
They seem to be planted to 3 feet apart.
Doesn't seem overly "natural" to me.
A lot different than a "fire". wow.... best bet would be to chain yourself to one of the trees and stop the madnesses .

[Bugle M In]

wow.... best bet would be to chain yourself to one of the trees and stop the madnesses .

No...no thanks.
Maybe I'll hit Merrit again next season.
It's been about 20+ years now.....
So maybe the trees have grown back around Peter Hope/Dardenellies by now????:tongue:

[Dannybuoy]

No...no thanks.
Maybe I'll hit Merrit again next season.
It's been about 20+ years now.....
So maybe the trees have grown back around Peter Hope/Dardenellies by now????:tongue:

If its been 20 years , you wont recognise the area ... between the beetlekill and logging . It was almost pristine 20 years ago in comparison .

[horshur]

Does are starting to use the blocks in daylight now that hunting season has been over for a week...they are not comfortable yet but getting there. They will use them all winter because the feed is much better then in the standing timber. As well they need far less time to "Fill up" because of the high quality feed they don't need to exposed very long in the open either.

[Bugle M In]

If its been 20 years , you wont recognise the area ... between the beetlekill and logging . It was almost pristine 20 years ago in comparison .

I know ;-)......

[.264winmag]

Some of my best hunts have been in nice, straight, spaced and thinned second growth stands. Especially on the island. They grow back boys. I bet lots of the 'old growth' that gets hunted has old stumps if ya look hard enough, not first gen...

[GoatGuy]

Some of my best hunts have been in nice, straight, spaced and thinned second growth stands. Especially on the island. They grow back boys. I bet lots of the 'old growth' that gets hunted has old stumps if ya look hard enough, not first gen...
Spacing is good, high stocking densities of pine means a desert for wildlife 25 years down the road....

[horshur]

Spacing is good, high stocking densities of pine means a desert for wildlife 25 years down the road....

with respect you have that in a fire as well...all ready well on the way in the Mclure fire.

[wideopenthrottle]

pine is a pioneer species and is well suited to heavy competition..it needs to grow thick for awhile to ensure minimal lower branching and tall straight trunks...that is how it naturally grows....they do need to be thinned and spaced (free to grow) in order to maximize wood production....we need some forests to be wood farms with intensive silviculture and managed with short rotations so others can be left in more natural states with much longer rotation periods (500, 1000, or longer years)

[GoatGuy]

with respect you have that in a fire as well...all ready well on the way in the Mclure fire.

Absolutely, some areas you will post fire, depends on ecosystem.

Many of our more recent fires are on areas which would have had frequent stand maintaining fires, but due to lack of fire seedlings get a foothold and grow like weeds.

Not the way it's supposed to be.

[GoatGuy]

pine is a pioneer species and is well suited to heavy competition..it needs to grow thick for awhile to ensure minimal lower branching and tall straight trunks...that is how it naturally grows....they do need to be thinned and spaced (free to grow) in order to maximize wood production....we need some forests to be wood farms with intensive silviculture and managed with short rotations so others can be left in more natural states with much longer rotation periods (500, 1000, or longer years)

Yeah, would be nice but it seems the concept and the application are far apart.

[Bugle M In]

Some of my best hunts have been in nice, straight, spaced and thinned second growth stands. Especially on the island. They grow back boys. I bet lots of the 'old growth' that gets hunted has old stumps if ya look hard enough, not first gen...

Most of what I hunt are really, really old fire regrowth areas.
And it consist of very old large pines and fir.
The difference is, any new trees grow in clumps...here an there.
So, you have an area, with all different ages of trees and types.

But, what is see now, in transplanted areas, are way different than what occurs after a fire.
Generally, only 1 type of tree is planted.
Obviously, all the same age.
All planted as close together as possible.
Rarely do I see them being "thinned out" after a certain amount of time.
Plus, the mess of debris left around now, is way worse than back before '98.
Old, old cut blocks, look a lot more "natural" than they do now.
If there are doubters, I will take photos of these "so called cut blocks of the past 20 years" and photos a cut blocks done
30 + years ago in the same area.
And then, there are the roads left behind, and even after deactivation, quads find away.
Again, I can show pics of roads that I thought were thoroughly deactivated....but nope, they found a way.

[Dannybuoy]

Most of what I hunt are really, really old fire regrowth areas.
And it consist of very old large pines and fir.
The difference is, any new trees grow in clumps...here an there.
So, you have an area, with all different ages of trees and types.

But, what is see now, in transplanted areas, are way different than what occurs after a fire.
Generally, only 1 type of tree is planted.
Obviously, all the same age.
All planted as close together as possible.
Rarely do I see them being "thinned out" after a certain amount of time.
Plus, the mess of debris left around now, is way worse than back before '98.
Old, old cut blocks, look a lot more "natural" than they do now.
If there are doubters, I will take photos of these "so called cut blocks of the past 20 years" and photos a cut blocks done
30 + years ago in the same area.
And then, there are the roads left behind, and even after deactivation, quads find away.
Again, I can show pics of roads that I thought were thoroughly deactivated....but nope, they found a way.

I would doubt it .... the old forest fire sites are always more densely treed ..those lpine sprout like weeds after a fire ....
as for quads "finding a way" so what ? if it was a road why not use it as a road

[GoatGuy]

I would doubt it .... the old forest fire sites are always more densely treed ..those lpine sprout like weeds after a fire ....
as for quads "finding a way" so what ? if it was a road why not use it as a road

Overview on natural disturbance types

https://www.for.gov.bc.ca/tasb/legsregs/fpc/fpcguide/biodiv/chap2.htm

Quick read on NDT-3

https://www.for.gov.bc.ca/tasb/legsregs/fpc/fpcguide/biodiv/chap2b.htm#nad

Quick read on NDT-4

https://www.for.gov.bc.ca/tasb/legsregs/fpc/fpcguide/biodiv/chap2c.htm


Good reading....

[Dannybuoy]

Not quite sure of the point GG ? I realize that BC has very diverse forests ... my point was there are very few virgin or old growth forests . at least in the interior , Okanagan or kootenays .

[GoatGuy]

Not quite sure of the point GG ? I realize that BC has very diverse forests ... my point was there are very few virgin or old growth forests . at least in the interior , Okanagan or kootenays .

Not all old forest fire sites are, or are supposed to be heavily treed with pine.

That's often induced by people and fire suppression. That is particularly important in places ppl are hunting deer in Nov.

[.264winmag]

Most of what I hunt are really, really old fire regrowth areas.
And it consist of very old large pines and fir.
The difference is, any new trees grow in clumps...here an there.
So, you have an area, with all different ages of trees and types.

But, what is see now, in transplanted areas, are way different than what occurs after a fire.
Generally, only 1 type of tree is planted.
Obviously, all the same age.
All planted as close together as possible.
Rarely do I see them being "thinned out" after a certain amount of time.
Plus, the mess of debris left around now, is way worse than back before '98.
Old, old cut blocks, look a lot more "natural" than they do now.
If there are doubters, I will take photos of these "so called cut blocks of the past 20 years" and photos a cut blocks done
30 + years ago in the same area.
And then, there are the roads left behind, and even after deactivation, quads find away.
Again, I can show pics of roads that I thought were thoroughly deactivated....but nope, they found a way.

Know a few planters and talked to them often. My sister is a scaler and does waste/residue assessment in the bush. From what I know from them and spending most of my spare time in the woods and a dozen or so working there
I understand there's always a mix of species required for reforestation. Thinning and spacing doesn't often happen for many years after planting. Burns are a different story, likely where the tighter looking patches appear, planters have a required distance to place trees?

[Bugle M In]

I would doubt it .... the old forest fire sites are always more densely treed ..those lpine sprout like weeds after a fire ....
as for quads "finding a way" so what ? if it was a road why not use it as a road

Yup, it's a road alright!
Or should I be saying, roads upon roads.
That's my point.....
There are so many roads everywhere now, that a hunter can access many areas now.
Look at Scottie Creek Region.
Look at what is happening to the south of Princeton.
Look at Merrit.
Notice how these areas are also where mule deer migrate into come winter.
Look at how much logging has created roads.
They never existed before....that is what or why it matters to me....

[brian]

Some people here are talking about clear cutting like it is an either or... Either you are for clear cutting or you should go chain yourself to a tree (you hippy). There are other ways. A week ago I was talking to a German forester and he was just shaking his head at how we do it. Germany is a small country with a dense population yet is also densely forested and has a vibrant forestry economy. They used to clearcut but it became abundantly clear that wholesale clear cutting was not a sustainable practice for them. Meanwhile there were large private land forests owned by the old aristocratic families where they were selectively harvesting trees. They were finding that these selective harvest sites were producing larger better quality timber, making more money overall, while encouraging sustainable forest and habitat growth. So the public lands went the way of the private lands and now there is almost no clear cutting in Germany but it still generates somewhere around 1.3 million jobs* and is one of the top 10 wood products exporters world wide. My German friend says this is all possible because they view their forests as a very precious resource, which is something we clearly do not with our abundance. I think we need a perspective shift in how we manage our forests.
* It really helps that Germany does not permit the exporting of raw timber.

[Dannybuoy]

Yup, it's a road alright!
Or should I be saying, roads upon roads.
That's my point.....
There are so many roads everywhere now, that a hunter can access many areas now.
Look at Scottie Creek Region.
Look at what is happening to the south of Princeton.
Look at Merrit.
Notice how these areas are also where mule deer migrate into come winter.
Look at how much logging has created roads.
They never existed before....that is what or why it matters to me....

If it was the access to deer winter range that's the problem then Easy fix .... shorten the hunting season ... esp the bow season ...
If its just access to Our great outdoors for those that wont otherwise get to enjoy those area's ... then I say more access = a good thing !

[Whonnock Boy]

One of the points made several times throughout this discussion has been the changing or shortening of seasons has not resulted in more wildlife. There has been a steady decline for decades. The shortening of bow season will fall into that category even though it is a season that has minimal impact on populations.

More access does not equal a good thing, and is one of, if not the most influential cause of wildlife decline in our Province, regardless if the access is utilized by hunters, or any other outdoor recreational users. Access impacts all wildlife.
If it was the access to deer winter range that's the problem then Easy fix .... shorten the hunting season ... esp the bow season ...
If its just access to Our great outdoors for those that wont otherwise get to enjoy those area's ... then I say more access = a good thing !

[Dannybuoy]

I should have added curtail the FN harvest ... that would be one of the most influential cause of wildlife decline in any of the area's I have been to , the other being loss of winter range ( valley bottoms) neither of which we have any control over ....

[Bugle M In]

Some people here are talking about clear cutting like it is an either or... Either you are for clear cutting or you should go chain yourself to a tree (you hippy). There are other ways. A week ago I was talking to a German forester and he was just shaking his head at how we do it. Germany is a small country with a dense population yet is also densely forested and has a vibrant forestry economy. They used to clearcut but it became abundantly clear that wholesale clear cutting was not a sustainable practice for them. Meanwhile there were large private land forests owned by the old aristocratic families where they were selectively harvesting trees. They were finding that these selective harvest sites were producing larger better quality timber, making more money overall, while encouraging sustainable forest and habitat growth. So the public lands went the way of the private lands and now there is almost no clear cutting in Germany but it still generates somewhere around 1.3 million jobs* and is one of the top 10 wood products exporters world wide. My German friend says this is all possible because they view their forests as a very precious resource, which is something we clearly do not with our abundance. I think we need a perspective shift in how we manage our forests.
* It really helps that Germany does not permit the exporting of raw timber.

Yes, I have hunted in Germany, and yes the forests are in better shape the way they do it IMO.
And yes, shipping Raw Log is a Major Mistake.