Lillooet City Council Not Concerned about Destroying the Alpine

[GoatGuy]

http://www.lillooetnews.net/news/local-news/wildlife-biologist-grilled-by-council-members-1.3465693

[David Heitsman]

Seems odd that the Gov't official wouldn't have mentioned the erosion and invasive plant species issues in this discussion as they are non-refutable and don't require a battery of 'test and studies'. I assisted with a helisheep count with the Ministry in 09? in the Shulaps and Tyoughten regions. We were shocked at the alpine degradation from careless ATV and motorcycles ripping through the highest habitats.

[GoatGuy]

Seems odd that the Gov't official wouldn't have mentioned the erosion and invasive plant species issues in this discussion as they are non-refutable and don't require a battery of 'test and studies'. I assisted with a helisheep count with the Ministry in 09? in the Shulaps and Tyoughten regions. We were shocked at the alpine degradation from careless ATV and motorcycles ripping through the highest habitats.

The reporter was not at the meeting and probably wrote the article out of meeting minutes. A lot of what was presented was not reported on.

The evidence is graphic - the councillor has head burried firmly in sand.

[Whonnock Boy]

This issue is only going to get worse, before it gets better. Big picture....

[rides bike to work]

Sounds like the councilor likes to go for a rip in the alpine. And has absolutely no clue about wild life

[SWRO]

Another viewpoint: http://www.lillooetnews.net/opinion/letter-of-the-week/letter-back-country-deserves-consideration-protection-and-respect-1.3464310

[GoatGuy]

Another viewpoint: http://www.lillooetnews.net/opinion/letter-of-the-week/letter-back-country-deserves-consideration-protection-and-respect-1.3464310


Great stuff!!!!!!!!!

[Dannybuoy]

This issue is only going to get worse, before it gets better. Big picture....
I agree , its getting so a person wont be able to access any of BC's remote area's if he/she cant hike hour after hour and pack supplies etc . The ATV closure's are a crock of sh*t
I am not talking about hunting either ....plain old access for the average Canadian !

[GoatGuy]

I agree , its getting so a person wont be able to access any of BC's remote area's if he/she cant hike hour after hour and pack supplies etc . The ATV closure's are a crock of sh*t
I am not talking about hunting either ....plain old access for the average Canadian !

I don't think you and Whonnock Boy are reading off the same script.

Just saying.

[Whonnock Boy]

You have assumed that I am in favour of habitat destruction by ORV's.


I agree , its getting so a person wont be able to access any of BC's remote area's if he/she cant hike hour after hour and pack supplies etc . The ATV closure's are a crock of sh*t
I am not talking about hunting either ....plain old access for the average Canadian !

[Dannybuoy]

You have assumed that I am in favour of habitat destruction by ORV's.

You have assumed I was in favour of habitat destruction as well ... I was talking about limiting access to only those able to hike or helicopter/ fly into remote area's .

[Whonnock Boy]

Fair enough. The question is, how do we curtail, or stop habitat destruction by ORV's without implementing all out closures? Pretty tough to do without full on closures. I understand that there are responsible users out there, unfortunately, irresponsible users have brought us to this point. Although, in order for it to be fully effective, we need enforcement.


You have assumed I was in favour of habitat destruction as well ... I was talking about limiting access to only those able to hike or helicopter/ fly into remote area's .

[Husky7mm]

I don't think people should be able to rip up the alpine but exclusion areas will lead to over use and exploitation of other accessible areas. If I was one of the people that lived in the sleepy little town of lillooet and they closed a bunch of access off I think it's understandable that people want to be consulted. I think it's important that rural people be able to recreate in their back yard. Whistler is right around the corner if you don't like atvers. There are thousands of kms of roadless back country in every direction from there if you want pristine country to walk in.

[Jeff77]

How bout close it off for cattle too .. 100 cows living up in the I frequent have destroyed the alpine ...like I mean torn to hell..
So before they worry so much about me going up there they should stop the cattle first

[Whonnock Boy]

I think we should be worried about every user of the resource destroying sensitive habitat. Your attitude will not fix it. Solutions, not finger pointing. Big picture....



How bout close it off for cattle too .. 100 cows living up in the I frequent have destroyed the alpine ...like I mean torn to hell..
So before they worry so much about me going up there they should stop the cattle first

[Wild one]

Seen enough scars on the alpine atvs need to stay on roads or trail. As for motor vehicle ban it only works if enforced. Just go to the Telkwa range in 6 near Huston go for a hike and see all the atv tracks well passed the gas stop

[BgBlkDg]

I agree , its getting so a person wont be able to access any of BC's remote area's if he/she cant hike hour after hour and pack supplies etc . The ATV closure's are a crock of sh*t
I am not talking about hunting either ....plain old access for the average Canadian !

No, further such regulation is essential, based on what I have experienced in the West Kootenays and other areas of BC. So many ATV users ARE very negligent, destructive and arrogant in their pursuits of their *sport* and the backcountry suffers as a result.

I think that banning ATVs for day use in hunting, allowing ONLY meat retrieval at dusk and perhaps certain other restrictions would help and should be enforced.

Altittude limits should be another such policy.

[Wild one]

No doubt there is hunters that are part of the problem but some areas joy riders are a huge part

area I mentioned has a ban already but has a ton of damage I know big part is joy riding no doubt some hunters. Even with the ban and even signs does nothing do to lack of enforcement

Education and enforcement I think is the main thing needed

[souwester]

I would think that as the recent phone app introduced by the BCWF gains momentum reporting atv use/abuse will become a top priority,having a license plate that can be photographed and reported makes for easy CO work.

[Husky7mm]

A restriction on elevation is good and sticking to existing trails is paramount. I totally get that there are many hunters and joyriders that don't give a fack, some actually do it on purpose. That said I am not one to support shutting things down to everyone for the actions of a few.(That's a terrible trend) It really takes some of the joy out of life. We need enforcement, and education. Figure out ways to restrict the rule breakers.

[Sunzuki]

Stiff penalties to the offenders.
Confiscate units, trucks, equipment if necessary.

[Gateholio]

I don't see why it's so hard or unreasonable to stay to existing roads and trails. In my opinion mountain bikes should be included in this. They have really done lots of damage, and they are now transported by helicopters. Sticking to the trails and not cutting new ones shouldn't be that hard.

[Jeff77]

Why is it only me who mentions the cattle .. has anyone seen the mess they make ..they found one my camera spots that borders the alpine and the timber .. it went from nice little mossy spot..grass . Rotten stumps to just a pile of mud and shit .. it doesn't even look like the same area

[HarryToolips]

I agree , its getting so a person wont be able to access any of BC's remote area's if he/she cant hike hour after hour and pack supplies etc . The ATV closure's are a crock of sh*t
I am not talking about hunting either ....plain old access for the average Canadian !
Unfortunately a few morons ruin it for everybody else...

[horshur]

Why is it only me who mentions the cattle .. has anyone seen the mess they make ..they found one my camera spots that borders the alpine and the timber .. it went from nice little mossy spot..grass . Rotten stumps to just a pile of mud and shit .. it doesn't even look like the same area

you had a salt block out..

[Jeff77]

Yes I did ...

[HarryToolips]

I would think that as the recent phone app introduced by the BCWF gains momentum reporting atv use/abuse will become a top priority,having a license plate that can be photographed and reported makes for easy CO work.
This is exactly it, and we all have to be diligent when we're out in these areas to take pics of offenders if we see an offence being committed..

[HarryToolips]

A restriction on elevation is good and sticking to existing trails is paramount. I totally get that there are many hunters and joyriders that don't give a fack, some actually do it on purpose. That said I am not one to support shutting things down to everyone for the actions of a few.(That's a terrible trend) It really takes some of the joy out of life. We need enforcement, and education. Figure out ways to restrict the rule breakers.
Your bang on, a restriction to existing roads and trails above a certain elevation is a good thing, and it's now the law in region8....

[Wild one]

Why is it only me who mentions the cattle .. has anyone seen the mess they make ..they found one my camera spots that borders the alpine and the timber .. it went from nice little mossy spot..grass . Rotten stumps to just a pile of mud and shit .. it doesn't even look like the same area

Cattle is no doubt another destructive problem

[BChunter]

The Kootenay mountains east of Nakusp are heavily infiltrated by Heli skiing that has reportedly reduced goat numbers. This may be just a rumour but has this been studied to at least be substantiated? Recently we were in an area and goat numbers there are much lower, possibly predation, less snow, etc. I know its not overhunting, toughest country in British Columbia! A friend in Revelstoke said its helicopters in the winter alpine. has to be partially true!

[ryanb]

The Kootenay mountains east of Nakusp are heavily infiltrated by Heli skiing that has reportedly reduced goat numbers. This may be just a rumour but has this been studied to at least be substantiated? Recently we were in an area and goat numbers there are much lower, possibly predation, less snow, etc. I know its not overhunting, toughest country in British Columbia! A friend in Revelstoke said its helicopters in the winter alpine. has to be partially true!

It has been studied, and yes there is a huge impact... But as with all things in this world it's all about the $'s.

[Sirloin]

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[Buck]

Seen the same thing this year out at Trout lake near Nakusp.Confronted the offenders they assured us they would stay on trail but that did not last long.No plates on the bikes was the problem or we would have reported them.
I don't think Banning access to the alpine is going to help we need more good samaritans reporting the abusers carry a camera and report them.

[5jackz]

Education only works on people willing to be educated. Fines/confiscating vehicles will definitely bring about change in attitude. As for cattle, of course a 1400 - 1600lbs cow will inflict much more damage than a 300lb deer or even a 900lb moose.

[RadHimself]

..... cows destroy more terrain then dirtbikes and quad ever have and probably ever will....

a few ruts here and there dont contaminate a watershed

BC Cattlemens club has WAY too much pull for that to ever change

but thank god the govnt made us register our bikes/quads and fired up a cash grab ORV park like Bear Creek


this issue will never change... people hate on bikes and quads... anytime a word is said about the cows roaming the alpine, shitting in drainages and destroying landscapes the thread gets deleted


when you grew up somewhere, and slowly over the last 10 years youve seen it change from pristine wilderness to a glorified pasture, clean creek water filled with trout turned into brown foaming cow shit infested run-off going straight from the mountain down into okanagan lake. you know what caused it... and its not the ****in dirtbikers

[HarryToolips]

^^^^i agree about the cows being a problem, but so are some of the users of bikes/quads, if they can catch and fine the ignoramuses that do this, the better, don't want a few wrecking it for the many responsible users out there..

[Sitkaspruce]

..... cows destroy more terrain then dirtbikes and quad ever have and probably ever will....

a few ruts here and there dont contaminate a watershed

BC Cattlemens club has WAY too much pull for that to ever change

but thank god the govnt made us register our bikes/quads and fired up a cash grab ORV park like Bear Creek


this issue will never change... people hate on bikes and quads... anytime a word is said about the cows roaming the alpine, shitting in drainages and destroying landscapes the thread gets deleted


when you grew up somewhere, and slowly over the last 10 years youve seen it change from pristine wilderness to a glorified pasture, clean creek water filled with trout turned into brown foaming cow shit infested run-off going straight from the mountain down into okanagan lake. you know what caused it... and its not the ****in dirtbikers

Then you really don't understand how erosion works in the alpine!! A "few ruts here and there" is all that is needed for the water to start eroding the landscape and causing slides, slumps and water contamination.

As for the Bush Maggots......no argument there. More long term wetland and stream side damage is down by them then anything else!! But the Cattlemen's association is a very strong voice in BC!!!

Cheers

SS

[Whonnock Boy]

Pointing at each other with crooked fingers is not going to fix the issue.

[Wild one]

Pointing at each other with crooked fingers is not going to fix the issue.

Agree when both are an issue no point saying " well those guys are worse" when in reality both are damaging

[ruger#1]

Then you really don't understand how erosion works in the alpine!! A "few ruts here and there" is all that is needed for the water to start eroding the landscape and causing slides, slumps and water contamination.

As for the Bush Maggots......no argument there. More long term wetland and stream side damage is down by them then anything else!! But the Cattlemen's association is a very strong voice in BC!!!

Cheers

SS Hey. Those bush maggots fertilize the country sides. Cant say that for quads and other vehicles.

[Salty]

I've seen the Lillooet council in the news quite a few times through the years and its always a WTF moment.

[wos]

Alpine

I was up in the alpine this year in the that area, it was a no-motor vehicle area. Not even permitted on existing trails at the elevation we were at. We watched a group of 7 or 8 dirtbikes come ripping through the alpine. They stopped on a tree line below us and we tried to make our way down to them, and they saw us, panicked and took off, they knew they were breaking the law. The ground was wet after a recent snow melt and this convoy absolutely tore up the alpine skidding around off trail on the steep slopes. None of these trail braids were there before they came through, they tore up the ground everywhere.

Also this area needs a grizzly LEH. Every basin had a grizzly. One basin had 3 bears working it. We saw 4 different grizzly in a small area with 6 encounters. We saw a big sow and cub jump on the trail of two other hunters just a few minutes behind them, at last light, sniffing the trail and hauling ass towards the hunters. Also saw the big sow and cubs prints in the snow 10 feet behind these other hunters tent, passed by in the night. Seemed to be following them for a few days.


I had the exact same experience. The damage they caused in such a short time over a very large area was mind boggling. It went from pristine alpine to looking like a dirt bike track in a couple hrs. What got me was the speed and size of an area they were able to destroy. And we need a grizz LEH in that reg.

[horshur]

you guys see what they did to the rivers there near town???

When you take something from one group(steal freedom) what do you suppose that groups reaction will be when your own freedoms are in peril?

[Salty]

Freedom stops when your version of it causes destruction. Pretty simple concept especially when in this case an atv can cause damage to the high country can take decades to heal.

[horshur]

Freedom stops when your version of it causes destruction. Pretty simple concept especially when in this case an atv can cause damage to the high country can take decades to heal.

Freedom stops when your version of it causes destruction. Pretty simple concept when in this case it kills a grizzly bear for sport, which will be gone forever.

[frenchbar]

I've seen the Lillooet council in the news quite a few times through the years and its always a WTF moment.

Quite comical at times for sure..��

[Hunter gatherer]

^^^ actually most councils in most towns are quite comical. I won't say that the riders in Lillooet wouldn't damage alpine but the ones I know stick to trails. Some ( most) of the problem lies with these uneducated coasties coming up here and for them it's a free for all,goes for hunting also. Sorry if a struck a nerve.

[GoatGuy]

you guys see what they did to the rivers there near town???

When you take something from one group(steal freedom) what do you suppose that groups reaction will be when your own freedoms are in peril?

The differences between responsible use and irresponsible can often be grey. In this case they are not.

Parts of that area look like the backside of the moon completely covered in trials bike tracks.

The local people were consulted numerous times.

This is a social license issue - something all of us should be aware of.

[Downtown]

If it does not depend on Legs to get around it should not be allowed in the Alpine anywhere in BC and that should include also any kind of Bike Motorized or not.

Cheers.

[horshur]

The differences between responsible use and irresponsible can often be grey. In this case they are not.

Parts of that area look like the backside of the moon completely covered in trials bike tracks.

The local people were consulted numerous times.

This is a social license issue - something all of us should be aware of.

It has to happen but every time this happens , everyone just lost. No win here when social licence turns on you. Piss off quad riders or mnt bikers guess who is going for your horses?. And they have a lot of ammo. Goats and Camelids first step. We need allies not enemies. 

[honeyman76]

Jeff77 hit it with the range lands. For years cows have been destroying the hell out of the alpine etc. Having said that, maybe there should be a mountain range set aside for unfettered ATV etc use. Let people go crazy, then restrict the rest of it, just a thought.

[GoatGuy]

It has to happen but every time this happens , everyone just lost. No win here when social licence turns on you. Piss off quad riders or mnt bikers guess who is going for your horses?. And they have a lot of ammo. Goats and Camelids first step. We need allies not enemies. 

Have to put environment first.

Education/enforcement are the keys but that takes money.... where does the money come from? .....no one wants a tax even if it is to promote their own interests..... what's left??

[dino]

How bout close it off for cattle too .. 100 cows living up in the I frequent have destroyed the alpine ...like I mean torn to hell..
So before they worry so much about me going up there they should stop the cattle first

Horses and cows do more damage to all the alpine I've ever hunted. I totally agree with you.

[Whonnock Boy]

Well, it looks like we all can agree that ORV's and livestock damage alpine, especially if they are attracted with salt. What are the solutions? I will stand with GG on this and say, funding, education, and enforcement are our top priorities. How do we get that? Go speak with your MLA.....

[markomoose]

Yup Jeff 77 hit the nail on the head. Friggen cattle destroy vast alpine areas. I used to hunt Hogback Mtn for years until the cattle almost wiped out the Alpine.Hey I enjoy a good beef steak but not at the expense of what used to be a great Mule Deer Range!!

[RadHimself]

Have a peak out around sugar and mable lakes... 100km circle around douglas lake ranch, west kelowna. East kelowna, christian valley.

its going on eveywhere. Half these places hardly even see dirtbike/atv traffic anywhere but on the main roads and spurs. Yet damn near every one of these drainages is crawling with cows. Not a word is said.

i hiked up to twin lakes on northfork fsr, just past cherryville. Cows in the basins on the pinnacles.. Wtf are they doin up there? Why?

[Looking_4_Jerky]

Jeff77 hit it with the range lands. For years cows have been destroying the hell out of the alpine etc. Having said that, maybe there should be a mountain range set aside for unfettered ATV etc use. Let people go crazy, then restrict the rest of it, just a thought.


Yes, livestock compromise valuable habitats and are an intentionally overlooked source of impacts from riparian areas to valley bottom grasslands to alpine meadows.


NO! We do not need to give the ATVers a stitch of alpine given that they already have every backroad in the god damn province to burn around on, they already transcend every gate and deactivation created to try to preclude motorized access, they are already present within every motor-vehicle closure.


I enjoy responsible ATVing as much as the next guy, but they're everywhere now. Get them out of sensitive habitats and devote the C & E resources to keep them out. Increase contravention penalties. I'd love to see the implementation of an initiative where the Crown seizes and liquidates any equipment used in the contravention of ORV closure regulations. The councillor from Lillooet would have a friiggin bird!