Opinions on white tails.

[Fella]

So it seems that Whitetails get a bad rap from some hunters, and I'm curious as to why? I've heard them referred to as "vermin" or "coarse deer". So what's your opinion on them?

[325]

I love whitetails. A big whitetail buck is way more challenging to kill than a big mule deer. Plus the meat is much better.

[wideopenthrottle]

largely viewed as an "eastern" species and we hate most of them "back-easters" especially those easterners from alberta....oh wait, these things are delicious...nevermind

[adriaticum]

People are afraid of new things. Most distributed ungulate species in the world.
Plus what 325 said.
I'm hoping that whitetails and mulies can strike a deal and each stay in their own habitats without too much mixing.
So we can continue to have 2 distinct species, which prefer different habitats and behave differently.
I think on the great Darwin's timeline mule deer is a relative newcomer.

[hoochie]

I love whitetails. A big whitetail buck is way more challenging to kill than a big mule deer. Plus the meat is much better.

agreed.
I really enjoy the challenge of WT hunting. I often wondered if the saying "high tail it out of here" was in reference to WT. I never fully appreciated that phrase until WT hunting.

[HarryToolips]

I love em, an incredible adaptable animal, I love hunting them, and they taste great...I hope they're numbers are kept under control as to not put too much strain on other ungulates, but at the same time, seeing them in moderately healthy numbers I think is a good thing..

[Mulehahn]

I love whitetails. A big whitetail buck is way more challenging to kill than a big mule deer. Plus the meat is much better.

Though I agree about the meat, I disagree about a large whitetail being harder, just different. Whitetail are creatures of habit, and usually a much smaller home. If you know where a large whitetail lives, you can get him. It may take a few tries and a lot of adapting but if you really want him it can be done, even if it takes years. For most truly trophy Mule deer on the other hand, you get one encounter! If you miss you will probably never see him again. Both hunts are enjoyable, just different. Mule deer hunting is cover ground glassing, Cover ground and glass. Whitetails hunting is the opposite. If you cover a mile in a day you covered to much.

As to why they are hated, it is mostly because they are taking over Mule deer territory. Or I should say that they are able to adapt to changes that mule deer can't. Combined with their penchant for rapid breeding many areas have become over populated. Just because people don't see them doesn't mean they are not there. They adapt very quickly to hunting pressure to. BC is traditionally Mule Deer territory. That is what people are used to hunting, hiking and glassing. People are reluctant to change, but they are starting to.

[Wild one]

Great deer to hunt personally WT and BT are a toss up on which is my fav deer to hunt

Guys in BC have been brain washed mule deer numbers are dropping do to WT. Reality is there is a lot of factors for the numbers dropping but WT are easy to blame rather than focuse on other big issues

[boblly1]

i grew up with coastal black tail have had lots of mule deer and in the last 4 or 5 years white tail have been on the menu more often. In my opinion on a grade scale 1 to 3 in a pan or a slow cooker ratings would be as such 1 white tail way out in front, coastal bt number 2, muley number 3.( Im just saying)

[Dannybuoy]

Though I agree about the meat, I disagree about a large whitetail being harder, just different. Whitetail are creatures of habit, and usually a much smaller home. If you know where a large whitetail lives, you can get him. It may take a few tries and a lot of adapting but if you really want him it can be done, even if it takes years. For most truly trophy Mule deer on the other hand, you get one encounter! If you miss you will probably never see him again. Both hunts are enjoyable, just different. Mule deer hunting is cover ground glassing, Cover ground and glass. Whitetails hunting is the opposite. If you cover a mile in a day you covered to much.

As to why they are hated, it is mostly because they are taking over Mule deer territory. Or I should say that they are able to adapt to changes that mule deer can't. Combined with their penchant for rapid breeding many areas have become over populated. Just because people don't see them doesn't mean they are not there. They adapt very quickly to hunting pressure to. BC is traditionally Mule Deer territory. That is what people are used to hunting, hiking and glassing. People are reluctant to change, but they are starting to.

Bang on ! Couldn't agree more .

[Cyrus]

from my limited experience the meat on a whitetail is way better.

[.264winmag]

Just starting targeting mule deer. Easy to find a young buck, as are wt, but tough to find a good one just like wt.
Wt gets the nod for me, the table fare is #1. I think getting into the mule deer hunting more will stop me from whacking young bucks, but they're just so delicious!

[Fisher-Dude]

I enjoy hunting both, equally.

As for taste - when I'm thinking I should have added some more spices to the steaks from the mule deer that the wife shot this year because the meat is so mild, wellllllll...........

[wideopenthrottle]

I enjoy hunting both, equally.

As for taste - when I'm thinking I should have added some more spices to the steaks from the mule deer that the wife shot this year because the meat is so mild, wellllllll...........

other peoples deer always taste better......or is it bear...no I remember now..its beer....heheheheheh

[swampthing]

Great!!! A place I can vent about my hatred of COARSE deer more commonly known as whiteails. I consider them in the same class as squawfish hence me calling them coarse deer. I grew up in Kamloops and have always been around mule deer. I didn't start hunting them until I was in my late teens but grew up in the bush and have always admired a nice muley buck. There was always a guy who found a whity shed or said he saw one but I never paid much attention to them as they weren't common. As my hunting career progressed mule deer became my main target and I studied them constantly. I noted that whitetails were becoming more common in my muley hunting spots. When I read Valerius Geists book about mule deer and their road to extinction I began to hate whitetails. I always figured mule deer were the king of all deer but I learned that whitetails were a vastly more aggressive deer and would out compete mule deer on their own turf. I recall one time watching a small whity buck run off a couple larger muleys and try to breed the muley does. I tried to kill that dammed buck but he got away. My hatred grew . Although whiteys are harder to hunt through my style of spot and stalk hunting I feel there are way more trophy class whiteys than muleys out there. I read an article about life after a nuclear event and it was of the opinion that coyotes and whiteys would be two of the only animals left. I cant really explain it but I cant stand whitetail deer. I will kill any whitey I legally can to try to help out my beloved mule deer. They taste better than squawfish too. I feel better after venting about this. I wish they would move on and leave my mule deer habitat to the mule deer. Whiteys have ugly racks as well.

[325]

Great!!! A place I can vent about my hatred of COARSE deer more commonly known as whiteails. I consider them in the same class as squawfish hence me calling them coarse deer. I grew up in Kamloops and have always been around mule deer. I didn't start hunting them until I was in my late teens but grew up in the bush and have always admired a nice muley buck. There was always a guy who found a whity shed or said he saw one but I never paid much attention to them as they weren't common. As my hunting career progressed mule deer became my main target and I studied them constantly. I noted that whitetails were becoming more common in my muley hunting spots. When I read Valerius Geists book about mule deer and their road to extinction I began to hate whitetails. I always figured mule deer were the king of all deer but I learned that whitetails were a vastly more aggressive deer and would out compete mule deer on their own turf. I recall one time watching a small whity buck run off a couple larger muleys and try to breed the muley does. I tried to kill that dammed buck but he got away. My hatred grew . Although whiteys are harder to hunt through my style of spot and stalk hunting I feel there are way more trophy class whiteys than muleys out there. I read an article about life after a nuclear event and it was of the opinion that coyotes and whiteys would be two of the only animals left. I cant really explain it but I cant stand whitetail deer. I will kill any whitey I legally can to try to help out my beloved mule deer. They taste better than squawfish too. I feel better after venting about this. I wish they would move on and leave my mule deer habitat to the mule deer. Whiteys have ugly racks as well.

why don't you tell us how you really feel?!?

[Wild one]

Great!!! A place I can vent about my hatred of COARSE deer more commonly known as whiteails. I consider them in the same class as squawfish hence me calling them coarse deer. I grew up in Kamloops and have always been around mule deer. I didn't start hunting them until I was in my late teens but grew up in the bush and have always admired a nice muley buck. There was always a guy who found a whity shed or said he saw one but I never paid much attention to them as they weren't common. As my hunting career progressed mule deer became my main target and I studied them constantly. I noted that whitetails were becoming more common in my muley hunting spots. When I read Valerius Geists book about mule deer and their road to extinction I began to hate whitetails. I always figured mule deer were the king of all deer but I learned that whitetails were a vastly more aggressive deer and would out compete mule deer on their own turf. I recall one time watching a small whity buck run off a couple larger muleys and try to breed the muley does. I tried to kill that dammed buck but he got away. My hatred grew . Although whiteys are harder to hunt through my style of spot and stalk hunting I feel there are way more trophy class whiteys than muleys out there. I read an article about life after a nuclear event and it was of the opinion that coyotes and whiteys would be two of the only animals left. I cant really explain it but I cant stand whitetail deer. I will kill any whitey I legally can to try to help out my beloved mule deer. They taste better than squawfish too. I feel better after venting about this. I wish they would move on and leave my mule deer habitat to the mule deer. Whiteys have ugly racks as well.

I think I might stop targeting WT and only shoot mule deer in BC lol

[Bear Chaser]

Anybody that says they like mule deer meat better than whitetail is either mentally handicapped or full of shit.
True trophy mulies are far less common than trophy whitetails probably owing to their vastly inferior intellect and propensity for standing around waiting to be shot during their development years by people used to looking at coastal blacktails.

[HarryToolips]

Great!!! A place I can vent about my hatred of COARSE deer more commonly known as whiteails. I consider them in the same class as squawfish hence me calling them coarse deer. I grew up in Kamloops and have always been around mule deer. I didn't start hunting them until I was in my late teens but grew up in the bush and have always admired a nice muley buck. There was always a guy who found a whity shed or said he saw one but I never paid much attention to them as they weren't common. As my hunting career progressed mule deer became my main target and I studied them constantly. I noted that whitetails were becoming more common in my muley hunting spots. When I read Valerius Geists book about mule deer and their road to extinction I began to hate whitetails. I always figured mule deer were the king of all deer but I learned that whitetails were a vastly more aggressive deer and would out compete mule deer on their own turf. I recall one time watching a small whity buck run off a couple larger muleys and try to breed the muley does. I tried to kill that dammed buck but he got away. My hatred grew . Although whiteys are harder to hunt through my style of spot and stalk hunting I feel there are way more trophy class whiteys than muleys out there. I read an article about life after a nuclear event and it was of the opinion that coyotes and whiteys would be two of the only animals left. I cant really explain it but I cant stand whitetail deer. I will kill any whitey I legally can to try to help out my beloved mule deer. They taste better than squawfish too. I feel better after venting about this. I wish they would move on and leave my mule deer habitat to the mule deer. Whiteys have ugly racks as well.
Lol,cmon, mature whitey bucks have cool looking racks, and you gotta respect how adaptable and resilient as a species they really are..

[lovemywinchester]

Did you know that WT are one of the national animals of Costa Rica? They can live from the frozen north to the jungles of central America. I love 'em. I barely hunt mulies with any effort anymore. I get em every year but getting a big one is tough. I believe the last two weeks of Nov are the only time you'll see a bruiser unless you get lucky somewhere. Look at certain threads in Oct this year where people are complaining about not seeing any WT and populations are crashed. November comes and pics of nice whiteys getting killed are all over FB, here and come in on my phone. No more complaining. They are sneaky, sketchy animals and so god to eat.

[GoatGuy]

Anybody that says they like mule deer meat better than whitetail is either mentally handicapped or full of shit.
True trophy mulies are far less common than trophy whitetails probably owing to their vastly inferior intellect and propensity for standing around waiting to be shot during their development years by people used to looking at coastal blacktails.

This is funny.

[hunter1947]

I love whitetails. A big whitetail buck is way more challenging to kill than a big mule deer. Plus the meat is much better.

X2 Good wording couldn't agree more on your post and yes its a way more challenging to take a big old
mossy back whitetail buck and better meat on the dinner plate..

Many of times I got outsmarted by a mechure WT buck when they are out of the rut..

[blacklab]

Great!!! A place I can vent about my hatred of COARSE deer more commonly known as whiteails. I consider them in the same class as squawfish hence me calling them coarse deer. I grew up in Kamloops and have always been around mule deer. I didn't start hunting them until I was in my late teens but grew up in the bush and have always admired a nice muley buck. There was always a guy who found a whity shed or said he saw one but I never paid much attention to them as they weren't common. As my hunting career progressed mule deer became my main target and I studied them constantly. I noted that whitetails were becoming more common in my muley hunting spots. When I read Valerius Geists book about mule deer and their road to extinction I began to hate whitetails. I always figured mule deer were the king of all deer but I learned that whitetails were a vastly more aggressive deer and would out compete mule deer on their own turf. I recall one time watching a small whity buck run off a couple larger muleys and try to breed the muley does. I tried to kill that dammed buck but he got away. My hatred grew . Although whiteys are harder to hunt through my style of spot and stalk hunting I feel there are way more trophy class whiteys than muleys out there. I read an article about life after a nuclear event and it was of the opinion that coyotes and whiteys would be two of the only animals left. I cant really explain it but I cant stand whitetail deer. I will kill any whitey I legally can to try to help out my beloved mule deer. They taste better than squawfish too. I feel better after venting about this. I wish they would move on and leave my mule deer habitat to the mule deer. Whiteys have ugly racks as well.

The anti hunting crowd must pee down both legs when they see a post like this.
Maybe you could post some pictures of the 35 pound fawns that are taken in antlerless season.
I'm sure it would help bring a lot more support our way.

[one-shot-wonder]

One of Big and Rich's most popular songs " Save a mule, shoot a whitey"

[one-shot-wonder]

The anti hunting crowd must pee down both legs when they see a post like this.
Maybe you could post some pictures of the 35 pound fawns that are taken in antlerless season.
I'm sure it would help bring a lot more support our way.
The anti crowd has a fit when any legal animal is killed, what's your point?

Years later and your still bitching about whitetail harvest..... How's that working for you, they continue to expand and create great hunter opportunity.

I see your from reg 3, how have whitetail numbers changed over the last 25 years?

[roymil]

ditch deer, thrash deer, cannon fodder, and the list goes on haha

[lovemywinchester]

Didn't you quit this site a few weeks ago?

[Looking_4_Jerky]

This is funny.

Agreed! I love the looks of a big mature MD as much as the next guy. Iconic of rugged country! But he's not far from the truth on the small muley bucks. Which is why people dislike WTs. Road hunting a small mulie buck can be like going out to pick a handful of dandelions. Even getting big ones is just a matter of letting a good number of them grow old and then following does around in the rut, which is easy to do. Getting even a little WT from the road is far less common, and the occasional one that doesn't exhibit the behavioral trait of running like a cheetah when it hears vehicles gets culled from the gene pool in short order. You can't even easily follow does around in the rut because even the does run from vehicles, taking the following bucks with them.

No wonder dudes don't like them. The species that challenges hunters is displacing the species that practically wanders to its death!

[Wild one]

I would agree young mule deer bucks are probably the easiest to kill. When it comes to big bucks of any deer species I would not call any of them easier than the other. They all come with different challenges and flaws

Could also be I am better at hunting WT/BT and suck compared to others with mule deer lol

[blacklab]

ditch deer, thrash deer, cannon fodder, and the list goes on haha
Yes I took a break for awhile.
Comments like this remind me why.

The only area of region 3 I can comment on is the Logan Lake, Tunkwa Lake area, I live here.
Yes numbers are down from what they were 6 to 8 years ago, I wasn't here 25 years ago, so no comment there.
I'm still waiting for Chris Proctor to tell me what kind of numbers they during their flights last winter.

[one-shot-wonder]

I won't speak for Chris but I gather the flight was much similar to region 8 flights in recent years ....stopped keeping track of whitetail 30 mins into the flight, high and low elevation in good numbers. No need to focus on them as they weren't even the target species for the flight.

Interesting observation, i have buddies who take bucks out that area every year usually requiring 1-2 days. Pretty good hunter effort / day I would say. Appears to me the whitetails have adapted to pressure, why havent certain hunters???

[blacklab]

Your buddies must have a lot of good pictures of all those bucks, I gather!

[one-shot-wonder]

They frequent this site and can post if they wish....

[REMINGTON JIM]

I love whitetails. A big whitetail buck is way more challenging to kill than a big mule deer. Plus the meat is much better.

I really like hunting whitetails and some of the best deer meat ever eaten is from grain feed Whitetail deer ! BUT to say they are way more challenging to KILL then a Big Mule Deer is a Real STRETCH of your Imagination ! :roll: Sorry but very True ! :wink: RJ

[REMINGTON JIM]

Great!!! A place I can vent about my hatred of COARSE deer more commonly known as whiteails. I consider them in the same class as squawfish hence me calling them coarse deer. I grew up in Kamloops and have always been around mule deer. I didn't start hunting them until I was in my late teens but grew up in the bush and have always admired a nice muley buck. There was always a guy who found a whity shed or said he saw one but I never paid much attention to them as they weren't common. As my hunting career progressed mule deer became my main target and I studied them constantly. I noted that whitetails were becoming more common in my muley hunting spots. When I read Valerius Geists book about mule deer and their road to extinction I began to hate whitetails. I always figured mule deer were the king of all deer but I learned that whitetails were a vastly more aggressive deer and would out compete mule deer on their own turf. I recall one time watching a small whity buck run off a couple larger muleys and try to breed the muley does. I tried to kill that dammed buck but he got away. My hatred grew . Although whiteys are harder to hunt through my style of spot and stalk hunting I feel there are way more trophy class whiteys than muleys out there. I read an article about life after a nuclear event and it was of the opinion that coyotes and whiteys would be two of the only animals left. I cant really explain it but I cant stand whitetail deer. I will kill any whitey I legally can to try to help out my beloved mule deer. They taste better than squawfish too. I feel better after venting about this. I wish they would move on and leave my mule deer habitat to the mule deer. Whiteys have ugly racks as well.

You probably could get HELP from a DOCTOR about your problem ! ;-) lol RJ

[steel_ram]

They've all got their merits. If I was guiding trophy bucks, I think BT would be the toughest.

[swampthing]

One of Big and Rich's most popular songs " Save a mule, shoot a whitey"

Excellent. I knew my opinion on whiteys wouldn't be popular but hey, its just MY opinion. I like kuiu gear and drive a ford too, so to some I am a "coarse" dude.

[HarryToolips]

I won't speak for Chris but I gather the flight was much similar to region 8 flights in recent years ....stopped keeping track of whitetail 30 mins into the flight, high and low elevation in good numbers. No need to focus on them as they weren't even the target species for the flight.

Interesting observation, i have buddies who take bucks out that area every year usually requiring 1-2 days. Pretty good hunter effort / day I would say. Appears to me the whitetails have adapted to pressure, why havent certain hunters???
Yup, they are there, right under people's noses...

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

Whitetails are phenomenal beasts. I love them, awesome Deer.

[Chuck]

I'm an old mule deer hunter, and love their meat. In fact the finest meat that I've ever eaten was a mule deer doe I took years ago on a farm near Kersley. White tail are okay too, but I somehow prefer the mule deer for eating. I enjoy hunting whitetails though and it seems that they will always present a challenge if they are on to you. Mule deer not so. They're just a hike and spot shoot and haul. We have nice Muleys in 4, but not as plentiful as 40 years ago. Lots of Whiteys too...they even live in town and harass my dogs. Lol.

[adriaticum]

Mule deer habitat presents a challenge more than the deer themselves.
But I'm glad different people prefer different deer.
Imagine if we all liked mule deer or white tail deer.

[Salty]

I love white tails. And Columbia BT and Mule deer. No experience with Stitkas.

Coarse deer. phhht... what a ridiculous notion that is :roll:

[REMINGTON JIM]

I love white tails. And Columbia BT and Mule deer. No experience with Stitkas.

Coarse deer. phhht... what a ridiculous notion that is :roll:

Exactly ! :smile: RJ

[Ddog]

pfffttt coarse deer,,what a pathetic statement that is,,just for that i am going to target as many as i can legally target of those dirty stinky mulies. ;)

for all species of deer i love em, i love all deer, i am a big fan of the mature bucks of all species, i personally LOVE tree stand hunting WT's,, that being said, its because i live, work, hunt the East Kootenays. I live for the archery seasons, although i hunt all seasons with a bow. My favourite season is late archery season for WT deer, for as long as i have hunted there was a season for WT either sex, but as of late the numbers have severely dropped especially in the EK, i don't care what you have read, when you hunted here, and how well you did. FACT is the numbers have been seriously reduced with the general open season on antlerless WT deer here in the EK, AGAIN i don't care what the hunter survey's say,,again fact is you can pretty much go anywhere in BC with a rifle and harvest a doe of any species. which makes hunter surveys a joke. If the survey says 100% success rate then there must be good numbers still. its just not a good way of determining the amount of deer in certain areas. neither is scat counts or aerial surveys. you need serious manpower and time to do walks and estimates that way, still isn't a guarantee on numbers because of the fact that there will never be 100% accurate counts no matter how its done. I love deer and deer hunting all of the species, Its really to bad that there is such liberal seasons in certain areas that is honestly eradicating a species. If there were to be a winter kill like in 96, the hunting would be put on hold for a few areas i know of.
Today is the first day in 11 yrs of tree stand hunting in the EK that i never seen a deer, in a very well known wintering zone on a salt lick/ baited area.
whats that say? I know lots of people are going to chip in with their own opinions but when you walk a mile where i have and seen what has happened you would agree. i have cams all over zones on bait and migration trails and routes, and the numbers just aren't there this year to support a continued GOS for public. IMO there should remain youth seasons and archery seasons and those that have reached 65 or older. These seasons for the past couple decades have shown to not eradicate a species, but to help in hunter recruitment and the older generation that still enjoy the hunt and harvest.
JMO....D

[Fisher-Dude]

You probably could get HELP from a DOCTOR about your problem ! ;-) lol RJ

Doctors don't cure lack of sentence structure and failure to use paragraphs.

[todbartell]

I like them both. A whitetail is a gorgeous animal, so sleek. Like they just got their hair done everytime I see one

[adriaticum]

I like them both. A whitetail is a gorgeous animal, so sleek. Like they just got their hair done everytime I see one


Lol, ok.....

--------

[.264winmag]

Wt definitely are the handsomest

[Wild one]

I like them both. A whitetail is a gorgeous animal, so sleek. Like they just got their hair done everytime I see one

So many comments to this I had to delet to keep things PG lol

[Rhyno]

Today is the first day in 11 yrs of tree stand hunting in the EK that i never seen a deer, in a very well known wintering zone on a salt lick/ baited area.

I feel your pain. Buddy and I were each on a well established baits, 35 hours of sitting between us to seen 6 bucks and 2 does! Of course we had both filled our buck tags already.

[Ddog]

8am to 4:15 pm today, in a stand ,,one doe ran by with a small buck on her heels,,grunting all the way,,was kinda funny to watch. other than that, nothing, NOTHING!
hmmm i wonder if the population is ok,,according to some its just fine. i beg to differ

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

I feel your pain. Buddy and I were each on a well established baits, 35 hours of sitting between us to seen 6 bucks and 2 does! Of course we had both filled our buck tags already.

These EK WT Deer are no dummies! They will avoid baits even. Change patterns.... Hop from a game trail way over 12 ft sideways into the bush (Over Junipers*). Personally I vouch for these animals doing this kind of stuff around here. It's awesome!

That said, love all deer but only mentioned WT as that what this particular thread calls for.

[tuner]

I like them both. A whitetail is a gorgeous animal, so sleek. Like they just got their hair done everytime I see one
This is an awesome comment, could'nt agree more!:mrgreen:

[Tifferly]

I've been 'hunting' many times with my dad when I was very young, but just as his spotter. I hadn't pulled the trigger on anything bigger than a grouse, until this season. After clocking 40+ hours (most of it alone and in -25C weather), I got my first deer, a nice chunky 5 X 5! (My husband made a separate post for me with pics).

I have this love/hate for WT already. After watching them from TCs for over a year at our new property, I respect that the bigger bucks are very smart and calculate their every move. But seeing my guy on camera late at night, then nothing during the day definitely weighed on me for weeks. We hung for 1.5 weeks, and butchered/tasted the meat last night. It's delicious, and tender. I'm humbled and pretty thankful for the outcome.

[Bear Chaser]

I've been 'hunting' many times with my dad when I was very young, but just as his spotter. I hadn't pulled the trigger on anything bigger than a grouse, until this season. After clocking 40+ hours (most of it alone and in -25C weather), I got my first deer, a nice chunky 5 X 5! (My husband made a separate post for me with pics).

I have this love/hate for WT already. After watching them from TCs for over a year at our new property, I respect that the bigger bucks are very smart and calculate their every move. But seeing my guy on camera late at night, then nothing during the day definitely weighed on me for weeks. We hung for 1.5 weeks, and butchered/tasted the meat last night. It's delicious, and tender. I'm humbled and pretty thankful for the outcome.

Congratulations on a great buck. You definitely worked for it.
Whitetails will humble you and make you feel like a fool every time you think you have them figured out.

[GoatGuy]

Went out yesterday with Coach for a couple hours in the morning and then in the afternoon for an hour with another buddy to get him set up for this morning.

Probably saw around 50-60 mule deer and 20-30 wt in one of the hardest hunted parts of the province. Good habitat mind you, and the wolves haven't taken off, yet.

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

I've been 'hunting' many times with my dad when I was very young, but just as his spotter. I hadn't pulled the trigger on anything bigger than a grouse, until this season. After clocking 40+ hours (most of it alone and in -25C weather), I got my first deer, a nice chunky 5 X 5! (My husband made a separate post for me with pics).

I have this love/hate for WT already. After watching them from TCs for over a year at our new property, I respect that the bigger bucks are very smart and calculate their every move. But seeing my guy on camera late at night, then nothing during the day definitely weighed on me for weeks. We hung for 1.5 weeks, and butchered/tasted the meat last night. It's delicious, and tender. I'm humbled and pretty thankful for the outcome.

Congratulations!

I'm enjoying these feild reports... My Whitetail Season for this year has been for awhile now. It was some!

[Looking_4_Jerky]

I like them both. A whitetail is a gorgeous animal, so sleek. Like they just got their hair done everytime I see one

I agree that WT look sleek and quite beautful, but a heavy-antlered MD with a picturesque backdrop on a cold day (when their fur looks clean and is a bit puffy) is practically heart-stopping.

[.264winmag]

I agree that WT look sleek and quite beautful, but a heavy-antlered MD with a picturesque backdrop on a cold day (when their fur looks clean and is a bit puffy) is practically heart-stopping.

I think it's the smell of em that is almost stopping the heart HA.
But I agree, it's a picture that belongs on a dinner plate!

[blacklab]

8am to 4:15 pm today, in a stand ,,one doe ran by with a small buck on her heels,,grunting all the way,,was kinda funny to watch. other than that, nothing, NOTHING!
hmmm i wonder if the population is ok,,according to some its just fine. i beg to differ

You got to know you're beating a dead horse on this site!
Your going to be beat up by the experts that have all the answers, see all the deer, but never provide any pictures.
Maybe they don't take pictures of the hanging pole full of does and fawns.

[hunter1947]

My experience on hunting mule deer and WT deer is when the mule deer buck is in full rut there stupid and easy to shoot same goes for the big WT buck before the rut
a big aged mule deer and WT buck are both smart and hard to hunt..

As for not liking WT deer to some of you that's your choice my choice is there both beautiful animals and I am proud to have both on my walls..

[Fisher-Dude]

My experience on hunting mule deer and WT deer is when the mule deer buck is in full rut there stupid and easy to shoot same goes for the big WT buck before the rut
a big aged mule deer and WT buck are both smart and hard to hunt..

As for not liking WT deer to some of you that's your choice my choice is there both beautiful animals and I am proud to have both on my walls..


I disagree.

Deer don't get stupid.

They just travel more during the rut so they become more visible to stupid humans that don't have the ability to see them outside the rut.

[wideopenthrottle]

I disagree.

Deer don't get stupid.

They just travel more during the rut so they become more visible to stupid humans that don't have the ability to see them outside the rut.

holy semantics batman.....bucks in the rut "make mistakes" no questions....

[Seeker]

Of all the ungulates that we are able to hunt in BC, the whitetail deer is the ONLY one that I honestly feel we will be able to hunt in GOS for the duration of my life. The rest I can hope for, but I am skeptical. Don't worry about whitey....he'll be ok. Great to eat and fun to hunt. Beautiful animal.

For those of you who feel that big Mule deer are easy targets, how many of you have taken a 180+ class buck and if so, how many of them? I have hunted a lot of years and have not....... so I totally disagree. Otherwise we would all have great trophy rooms!

[hunter1947]

I disagree.

Deer don't get stupid.

They just travel more during the rut so they become more visible to stupid humans that don't have the ability to see them outside the rut.

Pat You don't get it do you bucks let their guard down big time during the rut many times I see a mule deer,,Wt does in a cutblock in the rut the big bucks most the time will not present themselves in cut blocks as much when out of the rut there back in the big timber they don't get big by being stupid now do they..

Mule and WT bucks are real stupid but out of the rut you don't see the bigger bucks much and if you do see a big buck WT or mule out of the rut as soon as they see you they peg it for the timber,,I have a good idea on the behavior of WT deer Mule deer reason being is..

I have hunted them for many years and for long periods of time meaning almost everyday during the hunting season I spend thousand hours scouting and seeing their behaviour from June to Dec,,Pat I don't agree with you on 90% of your past post..

One thing I do agree with you is that yes a mule deer or WT buck will travel long distance in search for does in estrus and that when you can catch the small and big bucks out in the openings..

[wideopenthrottle]

I did an end of day hunt in about a foot of new snow tracing out about a 2km loop...the next morning as it got light out I cam across my tracks and there was a good set of buck tracks in my boot prints....I decided to follow and see how really fresh they were...after about 1 km I cam up on a nice big buck and when he saw me turned broadside and just let out a big breath....he knew I was there and didn't care....he was a nice 3x4 and when I butchered him there was almost no fat...I have referred to him as stupid but I guess you could argue he was just exhausted...

[325]

Females always seem to mess with the otherwise rational actions of males, species doesn't seem to matter.

[guest]

I disagree.

Deer don't get stupid.

They just travel more during the rut so they become more visible to stupid humans that don't have the ability to see them outside the rut.

or could you just say ..... They get too Horny, and drop all sence of judgement and ability to think clearly, therefore, exposing themselves to certain death, but not from stupidity.

To funny, got to agree with Wayne's findings here, yup they get a Stupid with an overdose of Male Hornyness Homrmones for Does like ..... Faleen, and Clarice.

LOL

CT

[Harvest the Land]

"Of all the ungulates that we are able to hunt in BC, the whitetail deer is the ONLY one that I honestly feel we will be able to hunt in GOS for the duration of my life. The rest I can hope for, but I am skeptical."

You don't think you'll be able to hunt Blacktails in GOS for the duration of your life?

[gunpower]

The anti hunting crowd must pee down both legs when they see a post like this.
Maybe you could post some pictures of the 35 pound fawns that are taken in antlerless season. Blacklab;
I'm sure it would help bring a lot more support our way. When I grew up in the Chase, Kamloops country back in the 50-60 to 1970, all we ever saw was WHITE TAIL DEER. I consider a Muley to be a coarse deer. I have only taken one muley and had to chuck it in the garbage years ago, as soon as it hit the frying pan look out !!

[HarryToolips]

Of all the ungulates that we are able to hunt in BC, the whitetail deer is the ONLY one that I honestly feel we will be able to hunt in GOS for the duration of my life. The rest I can hope for, but I am skeptical. Don't worry about whitey....he'll be ok. Great to eat and fun to hunt. Beautiful animal.

For those of you who feel that big Mule deer are easy targets, how many of you have taken a 180+ class buck and if so, how many of them? I have hunted a lot of years and have not....... so I totally disagree. Otherwise we would all have great trophy rooms!

Depends, if we make our Government do their due diligence and make logging companies de-activate a decent percentage of clear cuts, and we start putting money back into wildlife and preserve and make good habitat, the wildlife will be just fine...

[Seeker]

"Of all the ungulates that we are able to hunt in BC, the whitetail deer is the ONLY one that I honestly feel we will be able to hunt in GOS for the duration of my life. The rest I can hope for, but I am skeptical."

You don't think you'll be able to hunt Blacktails in GOS for the duration of your life?

Doh!....You may be right. I am not really exposed to them here in the Okanagan, and I am not overly familiar with their health and durability as a species... It would be nice to have a "couple" of options.

[Seeker]

When I grew up in the Chase, Kamloops country back in the 50-60 to 1970, all we ever saw was WHITE TAIL DEER. I consider a Muley to be a coarse deer. I have only taken one muley and had to chuck it in the garbage years ago, as soon as it hit the frying pan look out !!

I'll trade you my whitetail for your Muley! I love Mulies and at this point am impartial to Whities.


Depends, if we make our Government do their due diligence and make logging companies de-activate a decent percentage of clear cuts, and we start putting money back into wildlife and preserve and make good habitat, the wildlife will be just fine...

You are absolutely right however, a lot of "if's" and "and's" in order for that to happen, not to mention the guide outfitters and the expectations of the FN's and the fall out from the Tsilhqot'in ruling. Based on that and this governments' track record and their perceived value of wildlife in the recent past, it does not get me overly excited. It has taken YEARS to get the green light for a single controlled burn in the Ashnola. It is simply lip service to the amount we truly need to be effective. I have heard biologists claim road deactivation is going to be at the forefront as a management tool as we go forward. I fully support it. I am hopeful 2 lips, but not overly optimistic.

[Dannybuoy]

I'll trade you my whitetail for your Muley! I love Mulies and at this point am impartial to Whities.



You are absolutely right however, a lot of "if's" and "and's" in order for that to happen, not to mention the guide outfitters and the expectations of the FN's and the fall out from the Tsilhqot'in ruling. Based on that and this governments' track record and their perceived value of wildlife in the recent past, it does not get me overly excited. It has taken YEARS to get the green light for a single controlled burn in the Ashnola. It is simply lip service to the amount we truly need to be effective. I have heard biologists claim road deactivation is going to be at the forefront as a management tool as we go forward. I fully support it. I am hopeful 2 lips, but not overly optimistic.
Hrm ? In the Okanagan where can you go and not find mule deer ? The coastal blacktail are just midget or dwarf Mulies .

[HarryToolips]

I'll trade you my whitetail for your Muley! I love Mulies and at this point am impartial to Whities.



You are absolutely right however, a lot of "if's" and "and's" in order for that to happen, not to mention the guide outfitters and the expectations of the FN's and the fall out from the Tsilhqot'in ruling. Based on that and this governments' track record and their perceived value of wildlife in the recent past, it does not get me overly excited. It has taken YEARS to get the green light for a single controlled burn in the Ashnola. It is simply lip service to the amount we truly need to be effective. I have heard biologists claim road deactivation is going to be at the forefront as a management tool as we go forward. I fully support it. I am hopeful 2 lips, but not overly optimistic.
And the good thing about road deactivation is it limits FN harvest as well...

[.264winmag]

When I grew up in the Chase, Kamloops country back in the 50-60 to 1970, all we ever saw was WHITE TAIL DEER. I consider a Muley to be a coarse deer. I have only taken one muley and had to chuck it in the garbage years ago, as soon as it hit the frying pan look out !!

Interesting! Funny the old timers' here say the same thing except reverse the species. Who's to say what species is supposed to be where and how many of them?

[blacklab]

Went out yesterday with Coach for a couple hours in the morning and then in the afternoon for an hour with another buddy to get him set up for this morning.

Probably saw around 50-60 mule deer and 20-30 wt in one of the hardest hunted parts of the province. Good habitat mind you, and the wolves haven't taken off, yet.
You sound just like a buddy of mine. Always sees lots of deer but no pictures.
I know you're one of the heroes on here but put up some pictures or I'm calling BS!

[GoatGuy]

You sound just like a buddy of mine. Always sees lots of deer but no pictures.
I know you're one of the heroes on here but put up some pictures or I'm calling BS!

Lol, you want to see pictures of deer?

Maybe take a paintball gun and mark recapture them so you don't think they are double posts?

[Bugle M In]

And the good thing about road deactivation is it limits FN harvest as well...

I fully support road deactivation.....BUT......
I don't think it will work!!
Yes , there are roads that have been deactivated, or, due to "drainage" in a new cut block, they carve in deep trenches into the
road, that will stop the normal 4x4 truck....
But, I have seen roads that nothing can go thru, that are deactivated the best they can, but, Quads find a way thru!
Deactivation won't really work, it will just cause greater sales of Quads.
And then, there will be more guys attempting to get into areas they never could also.
I have seen areas, where there was no roads, and you had to hike into....it was awesome hunting...than along came the quads,
and they made there own trails, and now the area is nothing like it once was.
There is just way to many roads due to logging....period.
Just look at google time lapse....it's a real "eye opener"!, and you can see that just about every area in BC is within reach of a hunter with
quads, due to all the logging and the roads that come with the operation.

Better, to make areas "vehicular free zones" (although there will be plenty of guys who will still disobey), or certain roads where
vehicles can only drive, and spur roads "off limits"!
That would be a big endeavor, and wouldn't stop all the "use groups"!

Sorry to go off track here...as for whities.
I like them, they have great looking racks etc.
But I am concerned that due to all the present issues the wildlife face right now, and their declining populations, I do worry that
we could loose the "iconic" mule deer.

In the end, I don't think we can stop the whitetail from expanding... (do wish the elk could expand as exceptionally as Whities!)
But in the end, White tails might be BC hunters "prime resource" to continue hunting for generations.

But, at the expense of loosing the Mule deer....What to do??????

[GoatGuy]

I fully support road deactivation.....BUT......
I don't think it will work!!
Yes , there are roads that have been deactivated, or, due to "drainage" in a new cut block, they carve in deep trenches into the
road, that will stop the normal 4x4 truck....
But, I have seen roads that nothing can go thru, that are deactivated the best they can, but, Quads find a way thru!
Deactivation won't really work, it will just cause greater sales of Quads.
And then, there will be more guys attempting to get into areas they never could also.
I have seen areas, where there was no roads, and you had to hike into....it was awesome hunting...than along came the quads,
and they made there own trails, and now the area is nothing like it once was.
There is just way to many roads due to logging....period.
Just look at google time lapse....it's a real "eye opener"!, and you can see that just about every area in BC is within reach of a hunter with
quads, due to all the logging and the roads that come with the operation.

Better, to make areas "vehicular free zones" (although there will be plenty of guys who will still disobey), or certain roads where
vehicles can only drive, and spur roads "off limits"!
That would be a big endeavor, and wouldn't stop all the "use groups"!

Sorry to go off track here...as for whities.
I like them, they have great looking racks etc.
But I am concerned that due to all the present issues the wildlife face right now, and their declining populations, I do worry that
we could loose the "iconic" mule deer.

In the end, I don't think we can stop the whitetail from expanding... (do wish the elk could expand as exceptionally as Whities!)
But in the end, White tails might be BC hunters "prime resource" to continue hunting for generations.

But, at the expense of loosing the Mule deer....What to do??????

In a word: manage....



(BTW elk are expanding in Region 3, 5, and 8 - just contracting in Region 4 in a big way.)

[IronNoggin]

Deer don't get stupid...

Thus sayeth the self anointed Road Killer! http://forum.flybc.ca/style_emoticons/default/rotflmao.gif


or could you just say ..... They get too Horny, and drop all sense of judgement and ability to think clearly, therefore, exposing themselves to certain death, but not from stupidity.

LOL! Hell of a lot better understanding than the previous poster! http://bigshotsbc.ca/images/smilies/Pozitive.gif

Cheers,
Nog

[HarryToolips]

I fully support road deactivation.....BUT......
I don't think it will work!!
Yes , there are roads that have been deactivated, or, due to "drainage" in a new cut block, they carve in deep trenches into the
road, that will stop the normal 4x4 truck....
But, I have seen roads that nothing can go thru, that are deactivated the best they can, but, Quads find a way thru!
Deactivation won't really work, it will just cause greater sales of Quads.
And then, there will be more guys attempting to get into areas they never could also.
I have seen areas, where there was no roads, and you had to hike into....it was awesome hunting...than along came the quads,
and they made there own trails, and now the area is nothing like it once was.
There is just way to many roads due to logging....period.
Just look at google time lapse....it's a real "eye opener"!, and you can see that just about every area in BC is within reach of a hunter with
quads, due to all the logging and the roads that come with the operation.

Better, to make areas "vehicular free zones" (although there will be plenty of guys who will still disobey), or certain roads where
vehicles can only drive, and spur roads "off limits"!
That would be a big endeavor, and wouldn't stop all the "use groups"!

Sorry to go off track here...as for whities.
I like them, they have great looking racks etc.
But I am concerned that due to all the present issues the wildlife face right now, and their declining populations, I do worry that
we could loose the "iconic" mule deer.

In the end, I don't think we can stop the whitetail from expanding... (do wish the elk could expand as exceptionally as Whities!)
But in the end, White tails might be BC hunters "prime resource" to continue hunting for generations.

But, at the expense of loosing the Mule deer....What to do??????
Yes in many instances they have to do a much better job of deactivation, but I have several spots where they did do a good job and/or the bush has regrown on the fringes too thick so quads just can't get in...

[Seeker]

Hrm ? In the Okanagan where can you go and not find mule deer ? The coastal blacktail are just midget or dwarf Mulies .

Right now Mule deer are plentiful , but should provincial and western trends continue and more people come here to hunt them along with declining habitat quality (which is almost a certainty in this valley and region), the prognosis, in my opinion , is not rosie. I have my doubts for the long haul. I do not worry about whitetail. They have proven themselves. Repeatedly.

You may get some people on this website that will argue about the comparison of hunting between mule deer and blacktails. Sounds like blacktails by comparison are a little tougher to hunt. I wouldn't know.

[wideopenthrottle]

On the road deactivation point, it has to be complete road reclamation not just some ditches at the beginning...the wolves and others can still use the road bed after navigating the ditches

[GoatGuy]

Right now Mule deer are plentiful , but should provincial and western trends continue and more people come here to hunt them along with declining habitat quality (which is almost a certainty in this valley and region), the prognosis, in my opinion , is not rosie. I have my doubts for the long haul. I do not worry about whitetail. They have proven themselves. Repeatedly.


Truth..........

[Linksman313]

mmmmmmm!! tasty Whitetails, no vendetta against Mule's here though, just do not have as much time with a two year old to get to their specific habitat and hunt them with any efficiency.

[mpotzold]

mmmmmmm!! tasty Whitetails, no vendetta against Mule's here though, just do not have as much time with a two year old to get to their specific habitat and hunt them with any efficiency.

A few years ago shared a camp just north of Gang with a German-Russian butcher & his Croat hunting partner. One evening he cooked WT sausage for all & it was something to die for. It was shot just recently somewhere east of CC.

What I don't understand is that they have WT GOS in 5-03. Been hunting the area for about 50 years & never saw one. But I always get a tag just in case I shoot the wrong one!
Saw lots of WT in the farming areas south of Vanderhoof.

[HighCountryBC]

Thus sayeth the self anointed Road Killer! http://forum.flybc.ca/style_emoticons/default/rotflmao.gif



LOL! Hell of a lot better understanding than the previous poster! http://bigshotsbc.ca/images/smilies/Pozitive.gif

Cheers,
Nog

Except that FD is right. Bucks move more during the rut out of necessity, not stupidity and thus are more visible. If they were stupid, you'd be seeing every 200" buck get dropped instead of the 140-150 class bucks. Funny how the truly mature bucks manage to avoid most hunters even when they're "stupid", eh?

[Bugle M In]

Except that FD is right. Bucks move more during the rut out of necessity, not stupidity and thus are more visible. If they were stupid, you'd be seeing every 200" buck get dropped instead of the 140-150 class bucks. Funny how the truly mature bucks manage to avoid most hunters even when they're "stupid", eh?

Sort of both, more movement absolutely! and at times some pussy stupidity! (us guys should all relate to that at one time or another)
Want to get laid, go to the bar.
Bar is nothing but a "sword fight", so you high tail it out of there, and "hit the next bar"!! and so on and so forth.
Boys will be Boys!

[Bugle M In]

A few years ago shared a camp just north of Gang with a German-Russian butcher & his Croat hunting partner. One evening he cooked WT sausage for all & it was something to die for. It was shot just recently somewhere east of CC.

What I don't understand is that they have WT GOS in 5-03. Been hunting the area for about 50 years & never saw one. But I always get a tag just in case I shoot the wrong one!
Saw lots of WT in the farming areas south of Vanderhoof.

"But I always get a tag just in case I shoot the wrong one!"
that made me laugh!, as I tell my relatively new hunting partner to buy a white tail tag as well.
I just never tell him that that is the reason:smile:

[IronNoggin]

Except that FD is right. Bucks move more during the rut out of necessity, not stupidity and thus are more visible.

No actually, he is wrong. :lol:


... at times some pussy stupidity!

While they do indeed travel a much wider area, and often do so in daylight hours (instead of exclusively at night), they also tend to get C***-Struck - aka "Stupid".

Case in point: The fellow I guide for in Alberta from time to time (and btw I did guide for Sask whitetails for many years) focuses his efforts on the rut. As have I - always. Yes we do see more good / great bucks then than any other time of year. And I can state from direct personal observation they get downright STUPID. Paying attention to ONLY the doe you are with, and openly ignoring an armed rifleman at less than 100 yards is simply nothing but.

If you knew the number of 190 - 200" bucks that outfit has dropped over the past three decades you would likely puke.
Suffice it to say that number is staggering.
22 Book Whitetail Heads in the Lodge alone.
Basically all shot in the rut.
And basically all doing something that put them in direct jeopardy.
Something they would never do any other time of year.
And something that is called STUPID quite correctly.

Have a Great Day! ;-)

Cheers,
Nog

[walks with deer]

I would agree whitetail buck in full rut can be ******ed I have walked between him and a doe with his nose to the ground trailing her..until he walks right up to me..I whistle and he doesn't even lift his head than he dies...lol..whitetails are doing well in bc just ask my wall.

[walks with deer]

Most whitetails I have shot where less than 60yds except for 2 they like it thick and nasty.

[GoatGuy]

There's plenty of collar data from the states on buck movement, home range size etc during the rut.

Read, understand.

[blacklab]

There's plenty of collar data from the states on buck movement, home range size etc during the rut.

Read, understand.
And how does this relate to migratory white tail?
Did you ever see the migration trail down the kettle?

[swampthing]

Most whitetails I have shot where less than 60yds except for 2 they like it thick and nasty.

I have started seeing more and more whitetails in the sagebrush country! During the rut that is.

[Dannybuoy]

And how does this relate to migratory white tail?
Did you ever see the migration trail down the kettle?

Yup , you cant compare those American states where they say the whitetail live their whole lives in a square mile with our BC bucks ....

[GoatGuy]

And how does this relate to migratory white tail?
Did you ever see the migration trail down the kettle?


I think read, then understand.

There are migratory WT in the US as well.

[blacklab]

I didn't say there wasn't migratory deer in the US.
Migratory deer don't have a home range, they rut on the move.
Did you ever see or hunt the Kettle river migration trail?

[GoatGuy]

I didn't say there wasn't migratory deer in the US.
Migratory deer don't have a home range, they rut on the move.

Not really the way it works.

There are seasonal uses of an animals 'home range'. Multiple factors which drive it.

To say deer don't have a home range is not consistent with reality.


Did you ever see or hunt the Kettle river migration trail?

No, was not aware there was a Kettle river migration trail.

Have seen deer push down both the west kettle and main kettle watersheds, and hunt the spots they hang up on the way, but missed the "Kettle river migration trail" lol.


Lots of wives tales in the thread. GPS collars on bucks shows what they do, when, why, and how. Read, understand, or don't bother reading at all and argue anecdotal points.

Science vs beliefs.

[Fisher-Dude]

Science is only useful if it backs up old wives' tales.

[horshur]

A google search found Nebraska and texas gps data......longest migration was 30 km(doe)
Some of our whitetails have to migrate considerably further then 30km.

[Whonnock Boy]

Genuinely curious, and I am not asking because I do not believe you. How far do they migrate? What would some of their routes be, not specific, but in general? What have you witnessed to make you come to this conclusion?
A google search found Nebraska and texas gps data......longest migration was 30 km(doe)
Some of our whitetails have to migrate considerably further then 30km.

[Dannybuoy]

Genuinely curious, and I am not asking because I do not believe you. How far do they migrate? What would some of their routes be, not specific, but in general? What have you witnessed to make you come to this conclusion?

Not answering for horshur but the whitetails that head to the Christian valley via the kettle river would have to be traveling in excess of 100 km 's

[Whonnock Boy]

Are the deer migrating south down into the states, or north to cherryville and lumby? The valley is a 120km's from highway 6 to highway 3.


Not answering for horshur but the whitetails that head to the Christian valley via the kettle river would have to be traveling in excess of 100 km 's

[Dannybuoy]

Are the deer migrating south down into the states, or north to cherryville and lumby? The valley is a 120km's from highway 6 to highway 3.
? Not sure if you are tugging my chain or ? But If you didn't know a huge % of the whitetails in the monashee's ie keefer lake area etc winter in the Christian valley .... I don't know about now but a person used to be able to see thousands of deer . With the right winter conditions hunters used to just find a spot to watch the trail that they follow and wait for the buck that they wanted .
Anyway given that its 120 km from hiway to hiway it would be safe to say some of those deer travel 150 km?

[Dannybuoy]

So it seems that Whitetails get a bad rap from some hunters, and I'm curious as to why? I've heard them referred to as "vermin" or "coarse deer". So what's your opinion on them?

Sorry that I have helped to lose sight of the original purpose of your post .... BTW I like whitetails .... not as challenging as Mulies in some ways but harder in others so basically it evens out .

[horshur]

North of Tum Tum lake to head of Adams is 70 km but few whitetails winter at the head add at least 30 kms
Bone creek to Valmount is 80km. Bone creek to homestead is 95 km marginal for them to winter there bulk winter Vavenby

The GPS data is for actual kms traveled not as crow flies.

[Whonnock Boy]

No, I'm not tugging your chain. I have heard many times of a migration in the Christian valley, but I am curious as to how someone might actually know based on facts that these deer are migrating. I don't doubt it, just looking for evidence. I know I have seen piles of deer in Lumby and Cherryville come winter time, but are these deer local, or have they come down through the valley and out to the agricultural land?


? Not sure if you are tugging my chain or ?

[Dannybuoy]

No, I'm not tugging your chain. I have heard many times of a migration in the Christian valley, but I am curious as to how someone might actually know based on facts that these deer are migrating. I don't doubt it, just looking for evidence. I know I have seen piles of deer in Lumby and Cherryville come winter time, but are these deer local, or have they come down through the valley and out to the agricultural land?

You can see a lot of those same deer year around in lumby/Cherryville . Of course some will "migrate" to where the food and does are in the winter from the local hills . Also the whitetails are expanding their range .

[J_T]

No, I'm not tugging your chain. I have heard many times of a migration in the Christian valley, but I am curious as to how someone might actually know based on facts that these deer are migrating. I don't doubt it, just looking for evidence. I know I have seen piles of deer in Lumby and Cherryville come winter time, but are these deer local, or have they come down through the valley and out to the agricultural land? As the snow accumulates up top most of the drainages in the Monashees, Purcells and Rockies have a flushing out migration of some sort. It's quite obvious to the avid whitetail hunter. Migration is not limited to whitetail though. Evidence of a migration movement is readily discerned from that of a feeding bedding movement. For many hunters, this is the start of their concern about populations. They've hunted a long time and often the same place same time. Repeatability in the observation. They annually see a downward trend in the population of the movement. Not trying to stir things up here. Simply answering your question.

[Whonnock Boy]

No worries... This somewhat brings us full circle to the crux of the problem. Hunters like yourself are seeing a decline in many species, including the whitetail (the jury is still out on the latter). What I don't understand is, why are so many people concerned with a species that is the most adaptive, and the most prolific breeder of them all, when Mule deer and Elk numbers are a concern, especially in the Kootenays, and Moose populations are tanking in a majority of the Province? Where are the threads with people voicing their concerns about these animals? Where is the thread about Caribou??? I simply don't get it, in fact, I am dumbfounded by it.



As the snow accumulates up top most of the drainages in the Monashees, Purcells and Rockies have a flushing out migration of some sort. It's quite obvious to the avid whitetail hunter. Migration is not limited to whitetail though. Evidence of a migration movement is readily discerned from that of a feeding bedding movement. For many hunters, this is the start of their concern about populations. They've hunted a long time and often the same place same time. Repeatability in the observation. They annually see a downward trend in the population of the movement. Not trying to stir things up here. Simply answering your question.

[J_T]

^^^Good reply. Thanks. I do think you raise a valid point. A few thoughts I would offer; it was made very clear to most hunters that Whitetailed Deer would be the designated 'recruitment' species to entice new hunters into the world of hunting. Which is in large part why some supported the idea of more liberal seasons. While at the same time, there was a group that felt, if you reduce your prey species, predator numbers will drop. And another group that felt the carrying capacity of the land was compromised by the population of whitetail. And lastly, there is also that group that feel the mule deer is negatively impacted by the whitetail deer. While we manage WT populations based on buck harvest trends, there is that group of hunters that say, you just have to look harder. So the evil whitetail suffers from all sides. Becomes the focus of attention in many threads. The culprit caught up in the circle. When we look at Caribou, Moose, elk, Sheep, goats, deer, whitetail might just have the least amount of financial support for monitoring and application of management strategies. They are resilient, so we let them be just that, making the most of what we do for everything else.

As for populations of other ungulates, Elk are a large visible species, it doesn't take looking into the darkest depths of the forest to know their population is lower. When we look at moose, I would actually suggest my observations are that in this area, they are coming back. I know others feel the same. But, moose have been the forgotten species here for so long, hardly anyone thinks about them. Until now with the Moose Enhancement Program.

[Dannybuoy]

^^^Good reply. Thanks. I do think you raise a valid point. A few thoughts I would offer; it was made very clear to most hunters that Whitetailed Deer would be the designated 'recruitment' species to entice new hunters into the world of hunting. Which is in large part why some supported the idea of more liberal seasons. While at the same time, there was a group that felt, if you reduce your prey species, predator numbers will drop. And another group that felt the carrying capacity of the land was compromised by the population of whitetail. And lastly, there is also that group that feel the mule deer is negatively impacted by the whitetail deer. While we manage WT populations based on buck harvest trends, there is that group of hunters that say, you just have to look harder. So the evil whitetail suffers from all sides. Becomes the focus of attention in many threads. The culprit caught up in the circle. When we look at Caribou, Moose, elk, Sheep, goats, deer, whitetail might just have the least amount of financial support for monitoring and application of management strategies. They are resilient, so we let them be just that, making the most of what we do for everything else.

As for populations of other ungulates, Elk are a large visible species, it doesn't take looking into the darkest depths of the forest to know their population is lower. When we look at moose, I would actually suggest my observations are that in this area, they are coming back. I know others feel the same. But, moose have been the forgotten species here for so long, hardly anyone thinks about them. Until now with the Moose Enhancement Program.

Well written , covers it all . I would say though there are area's where the elk population is expanding , not only in numbers but in area . I would talking west kootenays and reg 8

[Bugle M In]

No worries... This somewhat brings us full circle to the crux of the problem. Hunters like yourself are seeing a decline in many species, including the whitetail (the jury is still out on the latter). What I don't understand is, why are so many people concerned with a species that is the most adaptive, and the most prolific breeder of them all, when Mule deer and Elk numbers are a concern, especially in the Kootenays, and Moose populations are tanking in a majority of the Province? Where are the threads with people voicing their concerns about these animals? Where is the thread about Caribou??? I simply don't get it, in fact, I am dumbfounded by it.

I think the most of us feel those species are in the "Tank" now, and might be for a long time, if not forever.
(considering the current status of "All" the issues facing those species)
So, now the last remaining ungulate that is in abundance, or at least not in a dramatic decline compared to the others, is a concern
for those that enjoy pursuing them.
In one way, considering the current state of our wildlife management etc etc.....
you can't hardly blame some of them....the ones in support of not reducing white tail numbers.

But like a few have stated....if we don't get our shit together and start "rallying" behind each other for support....
There will be "No road to Recovery" for much of BC's wildlife.
And.....
No wildlife means "Less or No Hunting Opportunities in the Future"....think about that.

[Whonnock Boy]

It's my understanding that "feel"ings weren't brought into the management strategy. We know that WT populations are spreading. We know that they have fared very well regardless of the liberal seasons. We know that competing ungulate populations have suffered. We know that we have to look at the big picture, a picture that will provide success for all wildlife. It's unfortunate that some "feel" that WT are getting the bad rap, but science is telling us that they, of all ungulates, can handle the pressure and harvest. This again comes full circle. What needs to be done to benefit all wildlife? IMO, if that means are liberal harvest of WT for the betterment of all, that is what should be done. At the end of the day, discussion and perspective is a good thing. We all may not agree on the journey, but we all agree on the destination. It's all good....

I don't doubt that Moose populations in the Koots are up, as the last time I was there a few years ago, I witnessed many animals. This is a good thing, but based on historical harvest stats, we are no where near where they could be.



^^^Good reply. Thanks. I do think you raise a valid point. A few thoughts I would offer; it was made very clear to most hunters that Whitetailed Deer would be the designated 'recruitment' species to entice new hunters into the world of hunting. Which is in large part why some supported the idea of more liberal seasons. While at the same time, there was a group that felt, if you reduce your prey species, predator numbers will drop. And another group that felt the carrying capacity of the land was compromised by the population of whitetail. And lastly, there is also that group that feel the mule deer is negatively impacted by the whitetail deer. While we manage WT populations based on buck harvest trends, there is that group of hunters that say, you just have to look harder. So the evil whitetail suffers from all sides. Becomes the focus of attention in many threads. The culprit caught up in the circle. When we look at Caribou, Moose, elk, Sheep, goats, deer, whitetail might just have the least amount of financial support for monitoring and application of management strategies. They are resilient, so we let them be just that, making the most of what we do for everything else.

As for populations of other ungulates, Elk are a large visible species, it doesn't take looking into the darkest depths of the forest to know their population is lower. When we look at moose, I would actually suggest my observations are that in this area, they are coming back. I know others feel the same. But, moose have been the forgotten species here for so long, hardly anyone thinks about them. Until now with the Moose Enhancement Program.

[J_T]

It's my understanding that "feel"ings weren't brought into the management strategy. We know that WT populations are spreading. We know that they have fared very well regardless of the liberal seasons. We know that competing ungulate populations have suffered. We know that we have to look at the big picture, a picture that will provide success for all wildlife. It's unfortunate that some "feel" that WT are getting the bad rap, but science is telling us that they, of all ungulates, can handle the pressure and harvest. This again comes full circle. What needs to be done to benefit all wildlife? IMO, if that means are liberal harvest of WT for the betterment of all, that is what should be done. At the end of the day, discussion and perspective is a good thing. We all may not agree on the journey, but we all agree on the destination. It's all good....

I don't doubt that Moose populations in the Koots are up, as the last time I was there a few years ago, I witnessed many animals. This is a good thing, but based on historical harvest stats, we are no where near where they could be.
Touche. You're right. Feelings aren't or shouldn't be a part of the management strategy. I used the term 'felt' as a statement of position. Some were of the position that it best to.... blah blah blah. I think it's been stated on here many times. Wildlife need attention. We operate on trends, rather than real data. We need the operational and strategic budgets to support initiatives. Data capture, data analysis. We operate a large land base, unique to most every jurisdiction. It isn't a one size fits all. We need to know how many wolves/cougars/grizzlies/bears/coyotes (predators) constitutes balance. How do we want to manage our elk? By area? Or by herd? We need to stay focused on habitat. I'd suggest transitional range is more important. In the areas I monitor, there is a lot of critical winter range for the number of animals we have. What we have, is too many highways and roadways in that winter range. Can't be avoided. So some strategies to get people driving slower. (saw a nice sheep dead on the side of the road last week). Bottom line and you see it all the time on here. Hunters have passion for their pursuit. Most hunters have strong opinions. Want to get everyone pointed in the same direction? Be less confrontational and derogatory online (I'm not pointing the finger) with each other and find ways to put hunters side by side on a volunteer project. Habitat, counts, collaring. Whatever. Hunters show up for burns. Until Gov took that away and said everyone had to be certified. Government can help, bring hunters together and use them as an asset, rather than have an adversarial relationship with them.

[Spy]

Touche. You're right. Feelings aren't or shouldn't be a part of the management strategy. I used the term 'felt' as a statement of position. Some were of the position that it best to.... blah blah blah. I think it's been stated on here many times. Wildlife need attention. We operate on trends, rather than real data. We need the operational and strategic budgets to support initiatives. Data capture, data analysis. We operate a large land base, unique to most every jurisdiction. It isn't a one size fits all. We need to know how many wolves/cougars/grizzlies/bears/coyotes (predators) constitutes balance. How do we want to manage our elk? By area? Or by herd? We need to stay focused on habitat. I'd suggest transitional range is more important. In the areas I monitor, there is a lot of critical winter range for the number of animals we have. What we have, is too many highways and roadways in that winter range. Can't be avoided. So some strategies to get people driving slower. (saw a nice sheep dead on the side of the road last week). Bottom line and you see it all the time on here. Hunters have passion for their pursuit. Most hunters have strong opinions. Want to get everyone pointed in the same direction? Be less confrontational and derogatory online (I'm not pointing the finger) with each other and find ways to put hunters side by side on a volunteer project. Habitat, counts, collaring. Whatever. Hunters show up for burns. Until Gov took that away and said everyone had to be certified. Government can help, bring hunters together and use them as an asset, rather than have an adversarial relationship with them.
Great post JT. It's time we all put our differences aside and work together. :-)

[Whonnock Boy]

Yes.... yes it is.


Great post JT. It's time we all put our differences aside and work together. :-)

[Spy]

Yes.... yes it is.
We need a like button on HBC, Merry Christmas Troy :-)

[Whonnock Boy]

Cheers. All the best to you as well.
We need a like button on HBC, Merry Christmas Troy :-)

[blacklab]

J-T some really good posts to this thread, and the other white tail thread.
I agree it would be nice if there was the wherewithal to do all the inventory and study that needs to be done, but it isn't going to happen.
The money just isn't and won't be there.
In light of the fact we lack hard data I think it is imperative we manage conservatively. I think we can do that and still provide opportunity
and the likelihood of success.
Having a throwaway species to keep hunter interest and numbers up will only last so long. When the numbers of that species decline,
we, like the wolves, will look to the next opportunity.
I will second Spys motion, that we have to quit dumping on anyone with an opposing view.
There are people on here that may not have a degree, but have a wealth of knowledge and experience and may know something about the state of our wildlife populations, because they live with it around them. We live where the rest of you hunt, and see these animals all year, not just on the occasional weekend visit, or annual hunting trip.
Maybe if people are willing to listen we can provide some of the data that is so badly needed. It may be anecdotal, but better than nothing.

[Ourea]

I agree it would be nice if there was the wherewithal to do all the inventory and study that needs to be done, but it isn't going to happen.
The money just isn't and won't be there.

blacklab, I respect and appreciate some of your points, albeit not all of them.
I also support a conservation first mindset.

Not trying to run your life but the "I quit, things will never get better attitude" I find troublesome.

All the things you are asking for take $$$ to understand and fix, you simply say it will never happen.
So, let's regulate.
Short term play boss.

[blacklab]

Where do you think the money will come from?
I have no intention of quitting until things do get better! I would have thought that would have been obvious by now.

[Whonnock Boy]

We have been attempting to lobby government into dedicating all funds collected from license fees to go directly back into the resource just like fishing licenses. Several federation members presented to the Select Standing Committee on finance advocating for this, and they in turn recommended it to government in their final report. Will it happen? I'm going to be optimistic and say yes considering the way the Liberals have been throwing money around lately. With that said, if the Federation is given the reigns with those funds, we should be able to double the 14-15 million in license fees with in kind donations from other like minded organizations, bringing total funds closer to 30 million. Cross your fingers.


Where do you think the money will come from?

[HarryToolips]

^^^^thats right, some of us are currently working on this, if it happens it will be a massive step in the right direction..

[blacklab]

We have been attempting to lobby government into dedicating all funds collected from license fees to go directly back into the resource just like fishing licenses. Several federation members presented to the Select Standing Committee on finance advocating for this, and they in turn recommended it to government in their final report. Will it happen? I'm going to be optimistic and say yes considering the way the Liberals have been throwing money around lately. With that said, if the Federation is given the reigns with those funds, we should be able to double the 14-15 million in license fees with in kind donations from other like minded organizations, bringing total funds closer to 30 million. Cross your fingers.

Federation, you mean BCWF? Like minded organization You mean GOABC by any chance?

[GoatGuy]

^^^Good reply. Thanks. I do think you raise a valid point. A few thoughts I would offer; it was made very clear to most hunters that Whitetailed Deer would be the designated 'recruitment' species to entice new hunters into the world of hunting. Which is in large part why some supported the idea of more liberal seasons. While at the same time, there was a group that felt, if you reduce your prey species, predator numbers will drop. And another group that felt the carrying capacity of the land was compromised by the population of whitetail. And lastly, there is also that group that feel the mule deer is negatively impacted by the whitetail deer. While we manage WT populations based on buck harvest trends, there is that group of hunters that say, you just have to look harder. So the evil whitetail suffers from all sides. Becomes the focus of attention in many threads. The culprit caught up in the circle. When we look at Caribou, Moose, elk, Sheep, goats, deer, whitetail might just have the least amount of financial support for monitoring and application of management strategies. They are resilient, so we let them be just that, making the most of what we do for everything else.

Re prey reduction, habitat management, apparent competition, are/were not feelings, that is science. I think that is part of the challenge, people treat science like it is an anecdotal observer, and that aerial inventory, GPS collars, and habitat sampling is somehow trumped by anecdotal observations which are based only on deer seen (yes, that was a pun). When hunters see deer that is only one very small piece of a very large puzzle. The baseline shifts and instead of asking what should it be, it's what was it.

There is empirical evidence attached to all of those issues. It was a few short years ago people were screaming about mule deer - the only thing you can do is improve survival/productivity which is by improving habitat or reducing predation. As you know there is no interest in managing cougars through hunting in the EK or WK, so the only thing you are left with is managing cougars by reducing wt numbers. There was a reason for the 2 doe bag limit in the EK, and that is it.

There was supposed to be a monitoring program attached to the antlerless season which gov did not follow through on. We have been discussing monitoring tools, but that might be an application for next year. A cheap mark-recap with a tooth program should do it.


As for populations of other ungulates, Elk are a large visible species, it doesn't take looking into the darkest depths of the forest to know their population is lower. When we look at moose, I would actually suggest my observations are that in this area, they are coming back. I know others feel the same. But, moose have been the forgotten species here for so long, hardly anyone thinks about them. Until now with the Moose Enhancement Program.

Also because they are at so low density. Moose pop in EK crashed 26 years ago, people forgot about it. Generally speaking still low density/poor recruitment although there are a few signs of light it isn't at a meaningful scale.

[J_T]

Re prey reduction, habitat management, apparent competition, are/were not feelings, that is science. I think that is part of the challenge, people treat science like it is an anecdotal observer, and that aerial inventory, GPS collars, and habitat sampling is somehow trumped by anecdotal observations which are based only on deer seen (yes, that was a pun). When hunters see deer that is only one very small piece of a very large puzzle. The baseline shifts and instead of asking what should it be, it's what was it.
Please read my additional reply. I wasn't suggesting feelings, but I was suggesting the influence of positions held by various groups. But your comment about inventory, does raise the question, if we look at how Grizzlies populations are studied using relatively random bait sites and hair samples - comparatively, if you have 10 guys, running 10 cameras each in the same location/bait site each year over a 5 year period. That information is more than an opinion of say a whitetail population. It can be quantified in a valid observation. Whether its wolves, moose, elk or deer, cameras do provide information. And Government could be considering that as an asset. I understand there is much to be thought about, this is just out of the box contributory thinking, if it were formalized, we could feel like we're working together.


There is empirical evidence attached to all of those issues. It was a few short years ago people were screaming about mule deer - the only thing you can do is improve survival/productivity which is by improving habitat or reducing predation. As you know there is no interest in managing cougars through hunting in the EK or WK, so the only thing you are left with is managing cougars by reducing wt numbers. There was a reason for the 2 doe bag limit in the EK, and that is it. Agree that mule deer are most vulnerable with poor habitat and they do suffer predation more readily than most. I understand from knowing the WK biologist years ago, the wt removal was the plan to save the caribou. Never agreed with it. I understand the logic. But it tends to move in a direction that takes hunters out of the equation and if science means hunters are not a valued part of finding balance, I think that's a slippery slope. (his active opinion was he didn't need hunters to manage wildlife by science)


There was supposed to be a monitoring program attached to the antlerless season which gov did not follow through on. We have been discussing monitoring tools, but that might be an application for next year. A cheap mark-recap with a tooth program should do it. We do know that you can't tell the age of mature ungulate with a tooth. Right. Ask a dentist. I keep asking them, they all say the same thing. You can tell looking in their mouth, at their gums and the plaque, but there are no rings on a tooth to determine age once it is an adult. It would be submission of an object to quantify harvests. I'd rather have a submit the heart project.... just kidding.


Also because they are at so low density. Moose pop in EK crashed 26 years ago, people forgot about it. Generally speaking still low density/poor recruitment although there are a few signs of light it isn't at a meaningful scale. Totally low density. I think most R4 hunters have simply accepted moose are a novelty. it's been so long since a viable population really presented any opportunity. Agree, still a long ways to go. But I am buying a moose tag the past 3 years.

[Whonnock Boy]

Yes, the BCW 'Federation'. No. Ducks Unlimited, Natures Trust of BC, etc.....


Federation, you mean BCWF? Like minded organization You mean GOABC by any chance?

[GoatGuy]

Please read my additional reply. I wasn't suggesting feelings, but I was suggesting the influence of positions held by various groups. But your comment about inventory, does raise the question, if we look at how Grizzlies populations are studied using relatively random bait sites and hair samples - comparatively, if you have 10 guys, running 10 cameras each in the same location/bait site each year over a 5 year period. That information is more than an opinion of say a whitetail population. It can be quantified in a valid observation. Whether its wolves, moose, elk or deer, cameras do provide information. And Government could be considering that as an asset. I understand there is much to be thought about, this is just out of the box contributory thinking, if it were formalized, we could feel like we're working together..

Camera trapping does work and we actually have a project on the go in BC, more to follow, but there is a science to it and you need a number of cameras to do it properly.

So far as DNA mark-recap for grizzly bears and 10 trail cameras, there is a huge difference. Taking hair for mit dna analysis is world's apart from putting trail cameras out and baiting them.


Agree that mule deer are most vulnerable with poor habitat and they do suffer predation more readily than most. I understand from knowing the WK biologist years ago, the wt removal was the plan to save the caribou. Never agreed with it. I understand the logic. But it tends to move in a direction that takes hunters out of the equation and if science means hunters are not a valued part of finding balance, I think that's a slippery slope. (his active opinion was he didn't need hunters to manage wildlife by science).

We never did do wt management for caribou. But there is plenty of data to support it, as they were finding wt right up into the alpine in the summer and cougars go right up there behind them.

Agree on your points.


We do know that you can't tell the age of mature ungulate with a tooth. Right. Ask a dentist. I keep asking them, they all say the same thing. You can tell looking in their mouth, at their gums and the plaque, but there are no rings on a tooth to determine age once it is an adult. It would be submission of an object to quantify harvests. I'd rather have a submit the heart project.... just kidding..

We can get a very good idea - it's actually fairly accurate and would give a good trend.

There is a significant difference in people's diets, deer don't really have that choice. Compares people's wear patterns with wildlife is apples/oranges.


Totally low density. I think most R4 hunters have simply accepted moose are a novelty. it's been so long since a viable population really presented any opportunity. Agree, still a long ways to go. But I am buying a moose tag the past 3 years.

8)

[LBM]

Camera trapping does work and we actually have a project on the go in BC, more to follow, but there is a science to it and you need a number of cameras to do it properly.

So far as DNA mark-recap for grizzly bears and 10 trail cameras, there is a huge difference. Taking hair for mit dna analysis is world's apart from putting trail cameras out and baiting them.



We never did do wt management for caribou. But there is plenty of data to support it, as they were finding wt right up into the alpine in the summer and cougars go right up there behind them.

Agree on your points.



We can get a very good idea - it's actually fairly accurate and would give a good trend.

There is a significant difference in people's diets, deer don't really have that choice. Compares people's wear patterns with wildlife is apples/oranges.



8)

So who is this we you always talk about, you are involved in all these studys.
It seems apparent to me you don't like cougars are have been seeming to be trying to blame them for declines in other animal populations.
so could you post the studys that have been done on cougars in the EK in the last 15 years.
Whitetails heading up high has been going on for years so nothing new there.
How many whitetails are collared in this study, how many cougars followed them up there, and how many whitetails did they kill while there.
How do you no they followed the whitetails up there. Some of the Data showing on collared cats heading south and crossing the boarder what
were they following?
Thanks