Elk Population Up To Date EK..

[hunter1947]

http://www.e-know.ca/regions/east-kootenay/where-did-the-elk-go/

[J_T]

Id be cautious with the actual number of elk stated. In the 90's there was no clear count of how many elk existed in the EK so the number 20,000 was used as the starting point. We know through a number of initiatives the trend in population went up. So we said there were 25,000 elk.

More recently accurate determinations of the count put elk numbers at about 14,000. Which for the ranching community were still too many. Gov set an objective to reduce elk numbers by two thirds. And I believe counts now show numbers of around 5000. Objective met.

[adriaticum]

I don't understand the concept of too many elk for the rancher community.

[labguy]

I don't understand the concept of too many elk for the rancher community.

The ranching community has been at odds with elk since as far back as I can remember. Wintering elk eat and cause damage to hay used to feed livestock.

In the late 60's the ranchers pressured government to reduce elk herds. The result was a GOS for any elk. This policy decimated the elk herds in the EK's. Any forest service road had gut piles every every few hundred yards......a complete slaughter.

The elk herds have never returned to anywhere near those levels and the ranching community is still continually pressuring government to maintain low numbers.

If you want to point a finger at declining game populations in this province it should first go towards the BC Cattleman's association. They are a large and powerful lobby in this province that are given enormous concessions at the expense of wildlife and the environment.

Besides having a huge impact on game management, the ranching community is excluded from most regulations regarding the destruction of riparian buffers. Cattle are allowed to trample, urinate in, deficate in and wallow in sensitive wetlands. They trample and befoul high alpine meadows and streams.

I've hunted sheep in the Ashnola where you couldn't find a place to put your sleeping bag down because of all the cow crap. The water was undrinkable and the sheep range overgrazed.

The spread of noxious weeds in the province is directly attributable to range cattle. The weed seeds cling to the coats of cattle and when they are moved to new range, find new homes to thrive when they fall off.

There are many more examples of how the agriculture industry is at odds with wildlife but I'll stop here. The agriculture industry is the single biggest detriment to healthy game populations in much of the province. Predators are a drop in the bucket by comparison.

[Fisher-Dude]

You will find more accurate figures here, compared to an opinion piece from a guy that applies social management desires to elk seasons.

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/management-issues/docs/2014_Provincial%20Ungulate%20Numbers%20Oct%2030_Fi nal.pdf

[338win mag]

The ranching community has been at odds with elk since as far back as I can remember. Wintering elk eat and cause damage to hay used to feed livestock.

In the late 60's the ranchers pressured government to reduce elk herds. The result was a GOS for any elk. This policy decimated the elk herds in the EK's. Any forest service road had gut piles every every few hundred yards......a complete slaughter.

The elk herds have never returned to anywhere near those levels and the ranching community is still continually pressuring government to maintain low numbers.

If you want to point a finger at declining game populations in this province it should first go towards the BC Cattleman's association. They are a large and powerful lobby in this province that are given enormous concessions at the expense of wildlife and the environment.

Besides having a huge impact on game management, the ranching community is excluded from most regulations regarding the destruction of riparian buffers. Cattle are allowed to trample, urinate in, deficate in and wallow in sensitive wetlands. They trample and befoul high alpine meadows and streams.

I've hunted sheep in the Ashnola where you couldn't find a place to put your sleeping bag down because of all the cow crap. The water was undrinkable and the sheep range overgrazed.

The spread of noxious weeds in the province is directly attributable to range cattle. The weed seeds cling to the coats of cattle and when they are moved to new range, find new homes to thrive when they fall off.

There are many more examples of how the agriculture industry is at odds with wildlife but I'll stop here. The agriculture industry is the single biggest detriment to healthy game populations in much of the province. Predators are a drop in the bucket by comparison.
What he said^^^^^

[338win mag]

You will find more accurate figures here, compared to an opinion piece from a guy that applies social management desires to elk seasons.

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/management-issues/docs/2014_Provincial%20Ungulate%20Numbers%20Oct%2030_Fi nal.pdf

Facts can be skewed, these "facts" are only random samplings from an understaffed government entity.

[BgBlkDg]

I agree with Labguy and also want much greater control of predators and especially aboriginals.

[Onesock]

Here I am wrong again. I thought the demise of our game animals in BC was because of the whitetail deer!! It appears most of the cult following on this site believe the lowly whitetail is the root of all our problems.......

[kevan]

I agree with Labguy and also want much greater control of predators and especially aboriginals.

Totally agree, especially the latter part...

[J_T]

Actually the stats presented by FD, pertain to Region 4. The original post was about elk populations in the EK.

Population estimates in the southern area of the trench have been estimated for some time. In 1993, Keith Simpson attempted a compilation to determine the elk population of EK. They used harvest data and hunter reports from 1976 - 1992. Based on harvest data and population ratios, 'back' calculations were used to estimate the number of elk in 1979 at 12,000, and in 1982 at 13,000. Aerial surveys of the EK Trench and Elk Valley in 1992 and 1993 estimated the population to be approximately 11,000.

The post harvest elk population in Kootenay region from 1981 - 1985 was between 16,000 and 18,000. In 1992 the elk population from aerial survey in the trench was 9 - 10,000. Simpson summarized his findings that in the southern Rocky Mtn Trench the elk population was approximately 13,000 elk.

A change in Government staff in the mid 90's saw a different approach to elk management. Money was contributed, donated and partnerships defined, using volunteer hunter labour to develop habitat. A number of thinning, planting and burn projects were carried out. Gov staff monitored the trend of the elk population and saw trends increasing. We had the winter die off in 1996, and since, we've had shifting priorities, increased predators, loss of habitat, increased hunter skills and access to the backcountry. In a conversation with the local biologist about 3 years ago, prior to the determination to reduce the population by 2/3's, the estimate in the trench for elk, was 14,000.

[adriaticum]

Thanks labguy. I see exactly what you are talking about around Douglas Lake in region 3.
They have ranch land the size of Switzerland and yet all their cattle graze outside on public land.
You can't throw a rock without hitting a cow pie.

[rocksteady]

I don't understand the concept of too many elk for the rancher community.


Around here ranchers have high fenced their alfalfa fields because the elk were eating it and even raiding hay barns..... HOWEVER, some ranchers totally over graze the crown land to the point where there is no option...(By the way the high fence was subsidized 50% by the feds).

The way I look at it is "You come to my house and clean my fridge out for breakfast, don't be surprised if I try to raid yours for supper"...

Ranchers and elk have never got along as they seem to be targeting the same precious resource..

[Wild one]

Here I am wrong again. I thought the demise of our game animals in BC was because of the whitetail deer!! It appears most of the cult following on this site believe the lowly whitetail is the root of all our problems.......

WT deer BCs way of avoiding the real issues

[hunter1947]

The Ranchers putting up fences to keep game animals ou the ranchers can have there cattle rome the crown land and eat the habitat the habitat will not recover for game animals for the fall low and hi elevations,,cattlemen have a big say on what they are allowed to do..

[rocksteady]

In all honesty I do not trust the numbers.

The amount of helicopter or airplane funding for MOE to fly the EK trench enough to get an accurate count is lacking..

Flying the valley for 2 or 3 days on December "X" and then saying it is a representative sample of the population , so we will times it by a factor of "XX" to say that the total population is "XX 000" is by no means accurate. More funding is required to get better numbers..

[adriaticum]

Around here ranchers have high fenced their alfalfa fields because the elk were eating it and even raiding hay barns..... HOWEVER, some ranchers totally over graze the crown land to the point where there is no option...(By the way the high fence was subsidized 50% by the feds).

The way I look at it is "You come to my house and clean my fridge out for breakfast, don't be surprised if I try to raid yours for supper"...

Ranchers and elk have never got along as they seem to be targeting the same precious resource..


Well the way I look at it, is if your door is open, and your fridge is open, how could I not.


I don't like the idea of cattle grazing public land period.
If you are a rancher and have cattle you need to have enough land to sustain that cattle.

I also think that ranchers should protect their alfalfa fields too. Maybe the need to start employing dogs and other methods of protecting their fields.

It's a tough one I know, everyone is pushing the price of beef down and wants to get beef for free which puts the ranchers between rock and a hard place.
I just don't think they should expect to be doing nothing and have large herds of cattle.

[Fisher-Dude]

In all honesty I do not trust the numbers.

The amount of helicopter or airplane funding for MOE to fly the EK trench enough to get an accurate count is lacking..

Flying the valley for 2 or 3 days on December "X" and then saying it is a representative sample of the population , so we will times it by a factor of "XX" to say that the total population is "XX 000" is by no means accurate. More funding is required to get better numbers..

The calculation is far more in depth than that. Habitat modelling is a large part of the estimation process, and it's extremely complex. Simple math really doesn't enter the process as you suggest.

Agreed though, we need a LOT more funding for wildlife management in this province.

People need to engage with their MLAs and demand funding for wildlife, rather than wasting energy arguing over hunting regulations that won't change elk populations one bit. It's an election year coming up, make the call and get down to your MLA's office, and present him/her with a 10 minute explanation of what you want to see for wildlife funding.

[hunter1947]

Going back over 40 years when there where lots of EK elk this is what it was..

...............................http://www.cranbrooktownsman.com/ourtown/326042931.html

#1 less road excess
#2 less predators
#3 less slashes
#4 lots of timber
#5 very little quad motorbike activity
#6 no hi fences from cattlemen.
#6 GOS for elk 6 points Sept 10 to the 20
#7 GOS for 3 points or better Sept 21 to Oct 20
#8 I sent a tooth in from my elk year after year.
#9 no GOS for for cow elk in the low elevations
#10 More road closures to motorized units..
#11 logging slashes where burn back then
#12 No junior GOS

I probably missed a few things maybe some other old times can add to my list that hunted back in the day..

[rocksteady]

[QUOTE=adriaticum;1850946]
If you are a rancher and have cattle you need to have enough land to sustain that cattle. Most Ranchers do not care to share the range, as wildlife takes money out of their pockets (elk eating their summer forage) and Don't want elk eating their crops and hay sheds (again, more money out of pocket)..

QUOTE]

I went to a Wildlife/ranching open house to discuss range sharing and it almost ended up in a fist fight...about 20 years ago

Basic rancher sentiments at the meeting "I won't be happy until every elk on the range is dead!!"
Basic hunter sentiments at the meeting (from one of the biggest guide outfitters in the area) "I won't be happy until every beef cow on the range is dead!!!"

Total polar opposites and neither side willing to sit down and come up with a compromise to benefit both sides....

You think it is a coincidence that the open cow/calf elk season and 2 WT doe season came to be under the premise of "crown land is at carrying capacity".... AUM's for grazing have not been reduced.. hmmmm.... Wonder who has a bigger political voice?? BCCA or BCWF???

[adriaticum]

Well rocksteady, if you need help with that fist fight, you can count me in.

I appreciate that they don't want their crops eaten by elk and that's fair they have to ensure they protect their keep.

No doubt that society places greater importance on cattle production and with it gives more importance to BCCA.
For most people, except those who venture into the wild, wilderness habitat is an abstract concept that they can't get their head around.

The problem is that BCCA and Government are both profiting from their joint venture and it will be hard to change that tide.

[Looking_4_Jerky]

What he said^^^^^

X2!

The livestock industry certainly has deep roots in the province. That must be why they continue to be able to cause so many adverse impacts to natural wildlife/habitat in the province and no changes are ever required of them.

I'm not suggesting the Kootenay elk issue is entirely a result of the livestock industry. Admittedly, many of the US states that have thriving elk populations also have large tracts of (private) land used for rearing livestock.

[JIL_24/7]

Is it just me or are the cattle out waaaaay too late this year as well?

[rocksteady]

Is it just me or are the cattle out waaaaay too late this year as well?

Forest management in BC now depends on "Professional Reliance"... harvesting, silviculture etc etc... One Professionals opinion versus another.. No different in range management. The enforcement side of the government is gone...The Forest Practices Code was very prescriptive, now the pendulum has swung back just as far to the other side..

[HarryToolips]

Is it just me or are the cattle out waaaaay too late this year as well?
Yup...any cattle not herded up and still in the bush by Nov 1st should be allowed to be harvested by hunters IMO...it's really sad that the elk numbers are doing that poorly at this time in the EK, I'm guessing there's a lack of critical winter range, mostly due to the ranchers...maybe with increased funding we can restore some winter habitat, and even get a feeding program in place for a few years (in the winter)???

[HarryToolips]

Going back over 40 years when there where lots of EK elk this is what it was..

...............................http://www.cranbrooktownsman.com/ourtown/326042931.html

#1 less road excess
#2 less predators
#3 less slashes
#4 lots of timber
#5 very little quad motorbike activity
#6 no hi fences from cattlemen.
#6 GOS for elk 6 points Sept 10 to the 20
#7 GOS for 3 points or better Sept 21 to Oct 20
#8 I sent a tooth in from my elk year after year.
#9 no GOS for for cow elk in the low elevations
#10 More road closures to motorized units..
#11 logging slashes where burn back then
#12 No junior GOS

I probably missed a few things maybe some other old times can add to my list that hunted back in the day..
It's crazy eh that with the other factors you pointed out under control, hunters back then actually had a GOS for 3 pt or greater Bulls, and like you said, cow elk at higher elevations..shows just how much impact those other factors have toward the overall herd size..

[boxhitch]

Going back over 40 years when there where lots of EK elk this is what it was..

.
.
................
I probably missed a few things maybe some other old times can add to my list that hunted back in the day..Good info Wayne
Now find out how many cattle are using the same area now compared to the olden times.
But wait.....its not the same area now, much has been developed into residential

[adriaticum]

Good info Wayne
Now find out how many cattle are using the same area now compared to the olden times.
But wait.....its not the same area now, much has been developed into residential

56,000 people on the kootenays.
I have that many homeless in Surrey.

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

I am another that disagrees with the numbers cited by Larry in that letter. EK is full of awesome animals. They taste great out of 4-20! Only thing is, seen more and way bigger Moose in 7-2 and 7-3, naturally and there are none of the species that don't live in the Koots, like a King Eider duck or Blacktail deer for instance. :p

I didn't agree with that letter and its rationale in the writing or the management of game here either and rules for BC Resident Hunters. I wish it was still any buck Mulies (see as many or more Mule deer as any other ungulate myself, sometimes 20 a day easy) and that the archery only seasons included all manner of short range specialist instrument such as open sights muzzle loaders and buckshot in shotguns. Also slug guns for Elk and more Elk opportunity across the board. Really wish I didn't have to pass up that 3x4 Elk while hunting deer with some very penetrative 12 bore slugs. But nah, illegal animal et al. Boo! Still the E. Koots is a very nice spot to Hunt. I regard it as good as any!

P.S- Much land development in the entire Kootenay is vacation/secondary properties for the wealthy from elsewhere. Lots more human/development impact than the under 60k would indicate. The density and type of housing is not like the LML in the least.

[338win mag]

I keep reading/hearing about these "facts" I am glad some guys on here dont believe or question the reliability of the "facts".
There are no facts, they are only "good guesses" and some would say not very good one either.

How is it that a random sampling of hunter success can come up with anything factual? Its not manditory to report, "in fact" they dont know how many deer/moose/elk etc, are shot by resident hunters.

Nobody knows how many animals are killed by Wolves and, in fact they dont know how many Wolves that there are, how could they?

The aboriginal harvest is unknown, there is no data, period. Why they are not required to report is ridiculous, its not an infringment of their aboriginal right to report the results of their hunting​.

Road access everywhere, logging around every Moose swamp, Mule deer doe draws where Mule deer pops are in trouble, Whitetail doe general open season, when habitat is renewed via forest fire it is destroyed by roads and access, quads just go over or around deactivated roads and barriers (no legislation).

Its looking good though, it will still look good when there are 1000 deer left and 50-100 are harvested, thats still 5-10%, right.
I know its about Elk in the EK, its the same in all of the province for all game species, almost exactly.

[tinhorse]

The ranching community has been at odds with elk since as far back as I can remember. Wintering elk eat and cause damage to hay used to feed livestock.

In the late 60's the ranchers pressured government to reduce elk herds. The result was a GOS for any elk. This policy decimated the elk herds in the EK's. Any forest service road had gut piles every every few hundred yards......a complete slaughter.

The elk herds have never returned to anywhere near those levels and the ranching community is still continually pressuring government to maintain low numbers.

If you want to point a finger at declining game populations in this province it should first go towards the BC Cattleman's association. They are a large and powerful lobby in this province that are given enormous concessions at the expense of wildlife and the environment.

Besides having a huge impact on game management, the ranching community is excluded from most regulations regarding the destruction of riparian buffers. Cattle are allowed to trample, urinate in, deficate in and wallow in sensitive wetlands. They trample and befoul high alpine meadows and streams.

I've hunted sheep in the Ashnola where you couldn't find a place to put your sleeping bag down because of all the cow crap. The water was undrinkable and the sheep range overgrazed.

The spread of noxious weeds in the province is directly attributable to range cattle. The weed seeds cling to the coats of cattle and when they are moved to new range, find new homes to thrive when they fall off.

There are many more examples of how the agriculture industry is at odds with wildlife but I'll stop here. The agriculture industry is the single biggest detriment to healthy game populations in much of the province. Predators are a drop in the bucket by comparison.

What government was in power at that time. Is there not one party out there that would be willing to help fix some of these issues.

[adriaticum]

What government was in power at that time. Is there not one party out there that would be willing to help fix some of these issues.

That's a tough question. Some parties respond to voter input more than others.
But then when they do it still may not be the right thing to do (according to us)
If they respond to a majority input then BC cattlemen will certainly have a greater impact.
See where I'm going with this...

[Fisher-Dude]

How is it that a random sampling of hunter success can come up with anything factual? Its not manditory to report, "in fact" they dont know how many deer/moose/elk etc, are shot by resident hunters.



I take it you're not educated in the field of statistics and random sampling?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I take it you're not educated in the field of statistics and random sampling?

As an addition....they have conducted random sampling for species that were also compulsory inspected and the results close to identical....and certainly within acceptable limits

[labguy]

What government was in power at that time. Is there not one party out there that would be willing to help fix some of these issues.

I believe it was Social Credit but not positive. Regardless, no government has had the political will to change the status quo since.

The facts are that the agriculture industry and particularly the BC Cattlemans Association is an enormously powerful lobby in this province and has been since seemingly forever.

No government would have the cajones to change things now unless there was a massive public outcry. This is not likely to happen because most of the public live in urban centers and could care less about what's going on the woods.

They are far more concerned with pressing matters like internet speed and having easy access to Starbucks.

[Timbow]

As an addition....they have conducted random sampling for species that were also compulsory inspected and the results close to identical....and certainly within acceptable limits

any literature to back this up? Is there a link?

[338win mag]

I take it you're not educated in the field of statistics and random sampling?

No, but please educate me on how random sampling, (voluntary) is taken as being factual.
Is there a statistic on how many game animals are shot whether it be bow/rifle and are not recovered, or highway deaths by automobiles? , because that would be interesting. Does it matter how they die? It should all be added together to get closer to the facts dont you think?

[j270wsm]

Seen a chopper doing counts yesterday while I was at work. I'm assuming it was for sheep but we seen them hovering above elk in the same spot last year

[Keta1969]

The ranching community has been at odds with elk since as far back as I can remember. Wintering elk eat and cause damage to hay used to feed livestock.

In the late 60's the ranchers pressured government to reduce elk herds. The result was a GOS for any elk. This policy decimated the elk herds in the EK's. Any forest service road had gut piles every every few hundred yards......a complete slaughter.

The elk herds have never returned to anywhere near those levels and the ranching community is still continually pressuring government to maintain low numbers.

If you want to point a finger at declining game populations in this province it should first go towards the BC Cattleman's association. They are a large and powerful lobby in this province that are given enormous concessions at the expense of wildlife and the environment.

Besides having a huge impact on game management, the ranching community is excluded from most regulations regarding the destruction of riparian buffers. Cattle are allowed to trample, urinate in, deficate in and wallow in sensitive wetlands. They trample and befoul high alpine meadows and streams.

I've hunted sheep in the Ashnola where you couldn't find a place to put your sleeping bag down because of all the cow crap. The water was undrinkable and the sheep range overgrazed.

The spread of noxious weeds in the province is directly attributable to range cattle. The weed seeds cling to the coats of cattle and when they are moved to new range, find new homes to thrive when they fall off.

There are many more examples of how the agriculture industry is at odds with wildlife but I'll stop here. The agriculture industry is the single biggest detriment to healthy game populations in much of the province. Predators are a drop in the bucket by comparison.

Agree with this. Also grazing leases that cover huge areas and exclude hunters yet cattle every where but on the leases and I don't know how many miles of barbed wire abandoned. I'm always amazed at where we see cattle or evidence of cattle on crown land. Always wondered how this was allowed to take place.

[Fisher-Dude]

No, but please educate me on how random sampling, (voluntary) is taken as being factual.
Is there a statistic on how many game animals are shot whether it be bow/rifle and are not recovered, or highway deaths by automobiles? , because that would be interesting. Does it matter how they die? It should all be added together to get closer to the facts dont you think?

I guess we should close hunting altogether, on every species.

By your reasoning, everything is at risk because we don't know the EXACT number of animals that die from all causes combined. We better not risk it. Stop the slaughter, now!

[338win mag]

I guess we should close hunting altogether, on every species.

By your reasoning, everything is at risk because we don't know the EXACT number of animals that die from all causes combined. We better not risk it. Stop the slaughter, now!

If we did that for a couple years it would be good times again.

[Fisher-Dude]

If we did that for a couple years it would be good times again.

How do you know?

You don't know how many are killed by preds, by cars, by trains, from starvation, poachers, natives, etc.

How can you say things would be good again when you just admitted a few posts back you don't know how many are killed outside hunting?

You stepped right into it. Most do, so don't feel bad. Thanks for stopping by.

[Ddog]

once again FD is proving himself always right. Thanks for all your posts FD,,your number 1.....

[adriaticum]

once again FD is proving himself always right. Thanks for all your posts FD,,your number 1.....


even a blind chicken gets the corn every once in a while :lol:

[Fisher-Dude]

once again FD is proving himself always right. Thanks for all your posts FD,,your number 1.....

And don't you forget it! ;)

Now you get back there and tell those crossbow guys off!

[Ddog]

And don't you forget it! ;)

Now you get back there and tell those crossbow guys off!

LOL...i can't my daughter is going to be a crossbow hunter in 2yrs,,,,:sad:

[Stone Sheep Steve]

any literature to back this up? Is there a link?

I'm not a wealth of linked info like some but ill see if I can find it again.

[sawmill]

Saw hundreds out in Wycliff yesterday, quit counting at 200.Every bend in the road had 40 to 60 crossing. Wild! One dead on the hiway too.

[Timbow]

I'm not a wealth of linked info like some but ill see if I can find it again.

Thanks, I would appreciate it. I might find it too, so if I do I will post the link.