Bang-flop vs deer bolting

[caddisguy]

With a vital shot (rifle) how often do deer just drop vs bolting? And if they do take off, how often is it more than 10-15 yards?

I just read a bunch of articles about tracking deer and was pretty surprised to read that even with a double lung shot, often there will be no hair or blood for 30-50 yards.

Made me think of some of the crap we hunt in and an incident I had a few years back with what I'll never know was a hit or not (but I found the deer mostly eaten in some reprod 200-250M away a week later)

Not to start a huge debate or anything, but it also makes me wonder if head/neck shots might have their place for close shots in thick stuff.

Or maybe reading this stuff just brought back a bad memory and I am over-reacting with worst case scenarios in mind?

[Omenator]

Last three bucks I've shot have been lung shots and all have gone 30 to 80 yards or so. Blood trails on two of the three were pretty thin as almost all the blood pooled in the body cavity. Head shots are a bad idea unless you can hit a golf ball consistently at whatever range you are shooting.

[ruger#1]

I have shot whitetails that run 50yrds or more. I look for blood, Find none. Then I look for tracks. If that isn't there. I do a big circle.

[albravo2]

I wonder if it has anything to do with caliber. Probably not, but worth asking others.

My deer gun for the past few years has been a 7mm Rem Mag shooting 160 grain Nosler Accubond bullets and there has been no tracking involved with boiler room shots and no need for a mercy shot either.

[ruger#1]

The guy I helped track his deer this year, He was using a 30-06. I use a 7m mag 160grn NP. and a 6.5x55.140grn. And have the same results.

[caddisguy]

I also wonder how much ammo makes a difference. That incident a few years back was with some lead-free ammo we grabbed by mistake. That said, I still don't know if I hit the deer, let alone where. I just know I searched the site where the deer was standing as well as the path it took into the reprod and never found any blood or hair, despite searching an entire day and a half.

Both bears I shot dropped like a sack of rocks, but one was a head shot and the other took out both lungs and the spine (not even sure how... magic bullet)

I'd like to minimize the chances of losing an animal... just thinking that 100 yards is a needle in a haystack where we hunt... without a good blood trail it might not be a sure thing.

[takla1]

I wonder if it has anything to do with caliber. Probably not, but worth asking others.

My deer gun for the past few years has been a 7mm Rem Mag shooting 160 grain Nosler Accubond bullets and there has been no tracking involved with boiler room shots and no need for a mercy shot either.

There a lot of shook to go with the bullet placement with a magnum rifle.With lung shots the lung is filling with blood so essentially drowned the animal,thier adrenalin pumping , flight response can move them away many 10's of yrds.
I generally try for neck/head shots if theres a risk of the animal getting away especially down hill where access is tough
The BT buck in my avatar I dropped with a single neck shot,375HH.He just collapse and he had 4 doe's with him breaking for the timber line
Moose ive shot generally don't go more than 30-40 yrs with a double lung shot

takla

[Dirt Road King]

i shot a white tail once, bullet broke front right leg right at shoulder, and somehow managed too break the other front leg, and it still made it 50+ yards. not the same as a vital shot but just goes to show anything can happen. every deer that i have shot in the heart has dropped on the spot, never made it even 5 yards.

[Fisher-Dude]

Pretty rare to do a double-lunger and not have a lot of brilliant red blood spray.

But then again, I don't use pencil-hole monos on deer. 8)

[Wild one]

Tracking deer is not bad bears can suck. Sometimes animals can cover more ground than expected

No need for head neck shots just take your time tracking and look for more than just blood

[Omenator]

My three bucks were all 30-06. 165 grn Hornaday SST did lots of damage on a spike buck, took out both shoulders and left a wide blood trail. Range was about 40 yards. Buck went about 40 yards, pretty far with a broken leg and the other shoulder was mush.
180 grn Federal blue box was a lung and liver hit at about 60 yards. Went in and out with moderate damage and buck went about 100 yards. Minimal blood trail.
Latest was a bigger buck at 110 yards with 165 grn GMX Hornaday Superperformance. High and a bit back double lung shot. Went about 40 yards. Again minimal blood trail.

[ruger#1]

Tracking deer is not bad bears can suck. Sometimes animals can cover more ground than expected

No need for head neck shots just take your time tracking and look for more than just blood They also crawl into thick brush.

[wos]

Bust a shoulder or spine it's going down on the spot. Boiler room and they will run a ways 100yds or so.
Sometimes with a blood trail sometimes nothing for a ways. Lots of csi work needs to be done after the shot to determine if you hit it and have more work ahead of you. Nothing worse than running the cariboo marathon.

[kilometers]

The moose my dad double lunged with a bow( arrow passed right thru) this year only went 50 yards or so we knew it's exact path it took and he watched it fall over. We couldn't find any blood when we retraced the path. When we gutted it, the whole chest cavity was full of blood. The moose had bled out entirely inside the animal.

[dougan]

Don't use barns bullets you won't have to track . I now shoot ballistic hunting tips and bang flop!

[Gateholio]

The biggest blood trail PG66 and I had ever seen was from a deer I shot with the excellent 150gr TTSX. Looked like someone had splashed a few gallons of red paint all over the snow. Due to the angle of the shot I had hit only one lung so it went for about 75 yards but there was no trouble finding that deer. Was almost gruesome the amount of blood spraying out of that deer!

Most animals I have shot with a Barnes bullet bang flops or goes a very short distance.

But if you want a guaranteed bang flop, the high shoulder or 1/3 up from the chest on the shoulder shots will do it for you.

[takla1]

Gate: Looked like someone had splashed a few gallons of red paint all over the snow

That reminds me of a very large BB boar I lung shot one yr,my son hit him as well but in the front leg.He turned and dove into the tree line and expired after moaning for a minite or 2.When we got up to the spot it looked like someone thru a couple five gallon pails of blood all over the brush for about 15 ft..he was shot with my handloaded nosler partition 165 gr with my weatherby 300mag
Lots of blood in those big northern Black bears

takla

[savagecanuck]

My last 3 buck's all bang flop. 2 neck shots 1 head. All 3 went straight down. Calibers were 223 last year @80yds, 25wssm the other 2.I use to go boiler room and they usually go 25-50 yds. I've been doing a lot of precision shooting the last few years so I'm pretty confident in my shot placement. If I was shooting 200 yds and more I would go boiler room.

[Wild one]

They also crawl into thick brush.

Crawling around through bear trails in 7ft regrowth on Van island looking for a bear after only finding a pin drop of blood sucks lol. Even more so when your not the shooter and did not see the shot lol

[ruger#1]

Crawling around through bear trails in 7ft regrowth on Van island looking for a bear after only finding a pin drop of blood sucks lol. Even more so when your not the shooter and did not see the shot lol Had it happen in hat creek. Hit the bear. It took off. Three of us looking for it. Then I see hind legs. And we pull it out. It was a heart shot. Clean threw.

[Dougielightning]

The last four years for me and my daughter were:

Whitetail buck 70 yds 7-08 remington reduced load spined and dropped follow up shot required

whitetail doe 50 y 7-08 rem reduced load shot too far back went 200 yds follow up shot required

whitetail buck 70 yds 7-08 rem reduced load double lung went 20 yards.

Mulie buck 80 yards 300 wsm nosler accubond Double lung dropped on spot

white tail buck 150 yards 300 wsm Barnes tsx double lung went 50 yards moderate blood trail

whitetail doe 80 yards 7-08 Barnes tsx double lung went 50 yards or more moderate bloods trail

whitetail buck 220 yards 300 wsm barnes tsx double lung went 100 yrds moderate blood trail

whitetail buck 300 wsm Barnes tsx broke both front shoulders 5-10 yards

whitetail buck 7-08 Barnes tsx 80 yds double lung no blood went 60 yards took awhile to find

this years Mulie buck 300 wsm nosler accubond 100 yards high shoulder and spine dropped on the spot
sat inside of hide on other side

300 wsm is 180 grains. 7-08 is 140 grains what I've found is everything kills deer dead the accubonds seem to be a awesome deer round doing mass damage I am a big Barnes fan but on small game where bones aren't hit they seem to poke holes however making jelly of the insides and the deer goes a bit further than the accubond or the Remington ammo, just what I've seen in the last little bit. Sorry to be long winded just thought we had a ton of different results with different guns and ammo.

[Salty]

The biggest blood trail PG66 and I had ever seen was from a deer I shot with the excellent 150gr TTSX. Looked like someone had splashed a few gallons of red paint all over the snow. Due to the angle of the shot I had hit only one lung so it went for about 75 yards but there was no trouble finding that deer. Was almost gruesome the amount of blood spraying out of that deer!

Most animals I have shot with a Barnes bullet bang flops or goes a very short distance.

But if you want a guaranteed bang flop, the high shoulder or 1/3 up from the chest on the shoulder shots will do it for you.

That was my experience last fall centre punched both lungs on a blacktail about a 60 yd off hand shot in the weeds, 150 gr ttsx out of a 308 left a blood and chunks of lung trail a blind man could have followed. Deer went about 100 feet.
I've never had a bang flop but I've always chose a chest shot they've all made it from 20 to 100 yds and everywhere in between. I have had a couple that didn't bleed much and one that didn't bleed a drop although the chest cavity was full of blood these were with cup and core bullets. I've always had a blood trail with ttsx though they tend to take about a two-nee sized chunk out of the off side of a deer.

[cyalatte]

I would be interested to hear from those who specified they took neck shots...if you have the choice where on the neck, do you target the lower neck where it joins into the top of the shoulder or at the end closer to where the neck joins the head? I would think the lower neck provides more real estate to hit than the upper.

[westcoaster222]

My first buck two years ago was 15 yards, with 00 Buck. Double far back lung, jumped strait up and bolted maybe 30 yards. Second was 15 feet, same load, double lung through shot, jumped strait up and made it 80 yards. No blood outside, filled right up in the cavity. My last of this year was a doe, 80 yards heart/lung with 165 Spear soft point 30-06. Did the funky chicken for 10 feet and tipped over, lots of blood spray.

[skuntor]

More room on lower neck to hit the deer but vital areas are the same size there. I've used it once on a small deer at 80 yards and I went just below head. 180 gr from 300wm blew out 3 vertebra and it dropped on the spot obviously. Kind of nice clean up job when there is not blood in the chest cavity. I might use the shot again when the right opportunity presents but have stuck with boiler room otherwise.

[caddisguy]

Thanks for all the replies... feel free to keep them coming. This is all very educational in setting expectations for after the shot. I have heard a number of stories from hunting friends about missed shots and I think sometimes people just shoot and see the deer run off like nothing happened and assume miss. Good for all to know it is possible to double lung a deer, have it run off like nothing happened and not leave a blood trail. Grid search 100 yards no matter what. A spotter watching through binos is useful too. Not sure about you guys, but when the 30-06 barks I miss what happens for a couple seconds so I can't see for myself.

[RackStar]

My moose this year, shoulder lung shot, he went about 30 yards into hell.
Couple deer last year, neck shot, dead and down instantly.

[Salty]

caddis have a look at westcoaster222's post a few above. If you go with a chest shot this is what you want to see they jump straight up land and take off. When this happens I just wait and listen its a good shot. Always watch like a hawk obviously after the shot, even if you're reloading watch what it does and where it goes if anywhere.

[scottwh]

Shot a 4x4 mulie this year at a touch over 300 yards with a 300wm and a 180g ttsx. Deer didnt run at all. At first, I thought I may have missed but the deers rear legs just lowered a bit and didnt move. Knew I hit him and just got ready for another shot. After a few seconds he just fell over. Hiked up to him and got him ready to pack out and found I lung shot him and entrance and exit were both between ribs..... Dont think he even knew he was shot, where as if I hit a rib, he probably would have run.....

[Xenomorph]

I would be interested to hear from those who specified they took neck shots...if you have the choice where on the neck, do you target the lower neck where it joins into the top of the shoulder or at the end closer to where the neck joins the head? I would think the lower neck provides more real estate to hit than the upper.

I find it extremely easy to take neck shots or head shots especially when still hunting or having plenty of time to get solid rest. What I do is I wait for the broadside, that moment when they look straight at you and aim for mid neck.

[.264winmag]

Had perfect heart shot deer run like a ******* up to 100 yds, once on a blacktail in the snow there was not a single speck of blood or hair for 70yds. Lung shot they'll go just as far sometimes. You want bang/flop punch em through the shoulders, the meat you save from wrecking the neck via neck shot more than makes up for trimming a bit off the shoulder(s). That is if you're worried about tracking. Shot my fair share in the head/neck too if that's all there is to look at but it's not foolproof. A poor head/neck shot he's gone potentially suffering, a flopping around jaw also a grizzly sight. I'm a boiler room man through n through...

[AgSilver]

My extensive experience (one shot) suggests that if you hip shot a deer in the femoral artery with a 300 WSM 150gr Win Extreme Points at 75'ish yards, he won't go far. And there will be an awful lot of blood inside the cavity, but not that much on the ground around him.

[Gateholio]

Thanks for all the replies... feel free to keep them coming. This is all very educational in setting expectations for after the shot. I have heard a number of stories from hunting friends about missed shots and I think sometimes people just shoot and see the deer run off like nothing happened and assume miss. Good for all to know it is possible to double lung a deer, have it run off like nothing happened and not leave a blood trail. Grid search 100 yards no matter what. A spotter watching through binos is useful too. Not sure about you guys, but when the 30-06 barks I miss what happens for a couple seconds so I can't see for myself.


I think almost every shot needs to be followed up,especially if they run off. When they look confused and sorta just walk off, that's probably a miss. :)

If an animal shows any reaction at all-including bolting off after the shot, assume a hit.

Several years ago PG66 and I were hunting moose with our friend who was a relatively new hunter. He took the shot while PG66 filmed it. The bull had a visible reaction, then trotted off into the forest. We spent a couple of hours looking for blood, hair-anything! But nothing at all. Finally it was getting late and we were somewhat convinced it must have been some sort of grazing shot, since there was no sign of a hit at all, but we planned on coming back the next day to look for ravens or any other sign.

Back at the cabin, we put the film onto a screen and watched the shot and the bulls reaction several times before we realized the bullet had hit an antler! :)

We called him the pierced ear bull after that, and of course heckled our buddy about aiming for the lungs, not the horns! :)

A few days later we had a nice bull on the ground, so he was redeemed! :)

[caddisguy]

Video is definitely handy tool to figure out what you are dealing with. I think PG was looking back an an arrowed moose this year too... handy to have video for sure.

Also read that a shot too far back will make the deer hunch up.

Hard to see that split second after a shot though as it can happen within a blink.

[Wild one]

In my opinion double lung is always a good choice biggest vital area less likely to screw up. Yes at times they run a little ways and others they drop on the spot. This is why tracking skills are important as well as taking the time to confirm a miss is actually a miss. Anyone who has hunted for a good amount of time has either had a shot go wrong or been with someone who has. To me the ability to track/blood trail game is more vital than knowing what shots can drop them on the spot.

got no issue with head/neck shots I have used them and deer dropped every time. But I only use these shots short range easy shots

really 50-100yard recover is really not that bad not uncommon bow hunting and lots do it. Drop in sight is nice but no matter the shot you choose it is a matter of time before an animal goes farther than intended

[Gateholio]

My extensive experience (one shot) suggests that if you hip shot a deer in the femoral artery with a 300 WSM 150gr Win Extreme Points at 75'ish yards, he won't go far. And there will be an awful lot of blood inside the cavity, but not that much on the ground around him.

Some poor shots end up ok in the end...

PG66 and I had hunted in the morning and were about to go somewhere else in the afternoon when we got a call from another guy who was a pretty new hunter. He had shot a deer, but couldn't find it after hours of looking and could we help?

So we go meet him and he had done everything right. He had flagged the blood trail and it was easy to follow. But it was a bit of weird blood trail, and we found out why later. Finally we go to where the trail disappeared, near a little drop off, but it looked like he had headed up a bit. We looked around and then PG66 goes back and climbs down the cliff a bit...Eureka! :)

Anyways, the new hunter knew to "shoot behind the shoulder" but the deer was quartering towards him and was downhill from him. That's when you should NOT aim behind the shoulder, of course...The bullet took out the rear bottom of the closest shoulder, traveled under the bottom of the deer and blew off his balls!

Turns out the balls have lots of blood supply, as the deer bled out quite quickly. It was probably only alive a minute and on a dead run before he bled out and toppled off the little cliff.

We can all learn from stuff like this and lucky femoral artery shots etc. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. Follow up diligently no matter what.

Remember, following up for a few hours on an animal you think you hit is less effort than going hunting to try to find another animal.

[TreeStandMan]

My experience with boiler room shots is that they run 2/3 of the time. The mulie I took three years ago I shot through the heart and still went 50 yards. This year's mulie I hit just above the heart, severing the coronary arteries, and he dropped instantly.

My theory is that it all depends on the speed of the bleed: even with a heart shot they still have some blood pressure for a few seconds, but pulverize the coronary arteries and their blood pressure drops instantly which equals bang flop.

I think it doesn't hurt that I use a fast expanding 180gr bullet out of my 300 win mag... I've never shot something with that rifle that didn't die, even if it took a few steps before falling.

[Antwonmh]

I've been shooting Barnes 120 ttsx out of my 7mm-08 the last few years. Last blacktail I shot was bedded at 125 yards quatering towards me and below me. I shot neck and it's head just lowered to the ground... didn't move an inch. That was my first neck shot on a deer and the rest have been lung/heart. I would prefer to take a lung shot but sometimes the opportunity isn't there.

[Gateholio]

I've been shooting Barnes 120 ttsx out of my 7mm-08 the last few years. Last blacktail I shot was bedded at 125 yards quatering towards me and below me. I shot neck and it's head just lowered to the ground... didn't move an inch. That was my first neck shot on a deer and the rest have been lung/heart. I would prefer to take a lung shot but sometimes the opportunity isn't there.

That's the nice thing about the Barnes bullets- IF you can put the crosshairs on where the vitals are positioned, you can take the shot. The Barnes will get there, from any angle!

[whognu]

for the newly minted hunters out there.......

my education on the topic of 'deer eating lead' started about 15 years ago

prior to that I had killed maybe 15+ deer and never shot at anything I did not recover

till that point, most were head shots because I hunt the timber and they were all 40 -60 yds

the fateful snowy day I was in the thick and nasty at timothy mtn and about noon came upon a dandy muley buck

terrain determined decision, boom, right behind the shoulder

upon the shot I see we weren't alone.........at least 4 other big bucks cleared the zone!

either way, my guy pogo's off and then (subconsciously) it strikes me that he quickly breaks stride and canters into the thick and with all the commotion (bone everywhere), I lose him about 80 -100 yds

seemed like they all pretty much went the same general direction

so I sit for 15 mins, then slowly make my way to the spot where I shot him

nothing, no blood, no fur and I see where the bullet hit the ground and kicked up the snow and leaves (I was above him on a small knoll)

so I follow each track about 150 yds until I 'figure' each was not my guy

about an hour after shooting I head back to ground zero and figure it must have been a clean miss

take my surveyors tape off the shooting tree and the hit area and follow along one set of tracks

I walk out the same 150 yds

at 160 yds I smell deer

there another 20 yds in the middle of the buck brush mr big is bedded down looking at me

the bullet went thru and thru behind the shoulder; no bone/ribs

ever since that day, if I shoot I assume I hit and I will spend a couple hours looking

I owe it to the animal

- my grid is 150 yds each direction from the hit zone; ie out 150, back 150 with 10-15 ft between passes
this covers about 4 football fields and if outside that it was likely a miss

- injured animals often go downhill

- seems to me injured whities initially flag then drop the tails fairly quickly

- and as mentioned they will crawl into the thick shit

- my longest recovery with no snow was only 2hrs

- my longest recovery in the snow was 7 hours (long story, I was not the shooter)

as a hunter I have shot at two deer I did not recover; I might have missed yet I doubt it; 10 years later I still think about it

my personal parameters

- I have never shot at a moving deer

- never shot out past 200yds

- the majority of my shots are at the heart/lung

- but........I shot a fork muley last week at 40 yds right between the eyes

- never considered a neck shot- thinking its either close enough to put one in his ear, or go with the guaranteed H/Lung

so to all you newbies out there.......have respect for the animals, only take shots that you have practiced and think
how bad you'd feel if someone shot your dog in the guts or the back leg, or the......

it's not a game

whognu

[tinbird]

Can't remember the website, I'll try and find it and post, but the article involved a wildlife biologist being interviewed regarding this matter and after many years as well as performing necropsies, the biologist believed the cause for dead on the spot heart shots were the result of bullet impact while the heart was full of blood just prior to being pumped whereas deer that ran were after the blood had been pumped. Caliber/bullet selection is this case made little if any difference.

[jvezina]

Last deer I took was in the woods and the shot was approx at 50 yards, it was a neck shot which severed his spine. He dropped exactly where he was standing, so I was very lucky and thankful for that. I've had other deer take off after a lung shot but never further than 20 or 30 paces away.

[boxhitch]

Can't remember the website, I'll try and find it and post, but the article involved a wildlife biologist being interviewed regarding this matter and after many years as well as performing necropsies, the biologist believed the cause for dead on the spot heart shots were the result of bullet impact while the heart was full of blood just prior to being pumped whereas deer that ran were after the blood had been pumped. Caliber/bullet selection is this case made little if any difference.
Read something similar.
Systolic and diastolic pressures, hit them when bp is highest makes for best results.......its all in the timing )

some writers will write anything

[boxhitch]

But then again, I don't use pencil-hole monos on deer. 8)Just measured two pencils, .280..........AI's I think

[SR80]

I used to shoot 140 gr barnes tsx's in my 270wsm. After an animal was shot with those in the lungs they would go 50ish yards most times. I switched to 140 berger vlds when i couldnt find tsx a year ago. And ive shot, 1 bear, 3 bucks, and a caribou with them and they have all dropped right there and didnt move.

[swampthing]

High shoulder shot with a high velocity small for caliber fragile bullet usually wrecks their day on the spot. You are not losing a quarter, you are gaining 3!!

[rocksteady]

Depends on if the bullet hits bone or anything vital, depends on what state of mind the deer is in (head down feeding or alert to your presence), depends on the distance,

depends
depends
depends

No one rule to follow, except, if you shoot at something, you spend the time looking for blood/hair/bone etc and then look some more...

[Wild one]

Depends on if the bullet hits bone or anything vital, depends on what state of mind the deer is in (head down feeding or alert to your presence), depends on the distance,

depends
depends
depends

No one rule to follow, except, if you shoot at something, you spend the time looking for blood/hair/bone etc and then look some more...


Agree 100%

[Linksman313]

This years WT - 150grain win powermax bonded .308 win - 50 yards spine shot quartering away - bang flop
Last year WT - shotgun slug (grain?) - 50 yards heart shot, dang buck went down, stood up and ran 70yds then flopped for good
we gutted out and found heart was pretty much mush but Buck ran anyway, we were all quite amazed when we found what was left of the heart after a slug went through at close range and still managed to get up and run. Good heart

[Surrey Boy]

http://m.theoutdoorforum.net/features/the-shot-that-drops-deer-on-the-spot/article_f18dbfc1-a667-57c7-9c43-91d86317d8b1.html

Interesting study there about stunning the brachial simplex, preventing deer from running.

[Ron.C]

In my experience, there is no consistent answer. I only shoot for heart and lungs and Ive seen deer bangflop and seen them run hard and fast after being hammered. I shot my biggest black tail with a 250 gr Barnes from my muzzleloader at 40 yards.Devistating amount of damage to his vitals. He went over 100 yards.

[smallfry14]

Last year:
4x4 mulie, 60 yards. Double lung, ran about 30 yards before I hit him with a neck shot on the run
5x5 white tail, 300+ yards, ran about 40 yards. Not one drop of blood at all, frontal shot through the heart

yesterday:
10 yard shot, buck was facing me. Aimed about 1" below his chin, dropped him in his tracks, was still breathing so gave him a follow up mercy shot within a couple seconds.

[HarryToolips]

I double lung shot a WT buck 6 years ago that still ran 100 yards...I neck shot from 250 yards another WT buck the following year, he ran about 200 yards before dropping, other than that, every animal I've shot has dropped on the spot..

[adriaticum]

Just practice chooting more

[1899]

I've had deer drop on the spot with double lung and I've had them run a short distance with double lung shots. Both has happened with the same rifle, same load. Can't tell you why it happens that way. One theory might be that a high velocity bullet hitting at the moment the lungs are full, or blood pressure is at peak may affect the animal differently. But like I said, I don't really know.

[savagecanuck]

I would be interested to hear from those who specified they took neck shots...if you have the choice where on the neck, do you target the lower neck where it joins into the top of the shoulder or at the end closer to where the neck joins the head? I would think the lower neck provides more real estate to hit than the upper.
Right about dead center on the neck is where I shoot,gives me a few inchs either way if i,m out.

[Jovesque]

I'm not near as field experience as many of you when it comes to big game, but not long ago I happened upon the research of Nathan Foster who's devoted his career towards Ballistic studies and hunting. His website (www.ballisticstudies.com) includes a comprehensive library of wound research which illustrates several considerations in terminal ballistics. His book “The practical guide to long range hunting cartridges” goes into further detail on the differences between cartridges, bullet, load, velocity, and general expectations to wound research at different distances, respectably. Research on brachial plexus in deer and other animals is covered in detail as well as how to achieve hydraulic shock over mechanical(slower) given your cartridge choice and shot placement. To say the least the book was an excellent read filled with a staggering amount of data, especially helpful in harvesting wild game.

I'd be interested to see more research in close range hunting, but I'm sure a lot of what he's covered can be equally applied to our circumstances with a thoughtful approach. Either way the brachial plexus seems to be the favour in his remarks when it comes to dropping them on the spot.

[brian]

I use buckshot @ 30 yards. Aim for the middle of the neck and usually shatter a vertebra or two. They never move from the spot. I would be a little leary taking head shots. I have to put down lambs for harvest and their brains are a lot smaller target than people think. If I were a really good shot then I would consider it, but not with my current shooting skills.

[375shooter]

Caddisguy, don't listen to anybody who condone head and neck shots. They've either only done it once or twice, or are only telling you about the successful outcomes, and not of the unsuccessful ones, or of the ones they think they missed. Stick to lung shots. When making the shot, look at the angle of the animal and try to visualize the path of the bullet. Direct it to as close to the center of both lungs as possible, and like I mentioned in another one of your threads, consider using a bullet that guarantees complete pass-throughs. Two hole are always better than one, for making blood trails. Shoot only if 100% confident of a good hit. Don't rush the shot, don't shoot if the animal is moving if in the bush, and don't use a marginal caliber. Your 30-06 should be fine for pretty much anything, as long as you can shoot it well. And heavier bullets are better for bigger animals, like elk and moose.

IME, if you make a good hit through the lungs, especially with a complete pass-through, there WILL be blood. You just have to find it. Don't just look on the ground, but also on the vegetation up to the level of where the bullet hole would be on the animal. Anything that the animal brushes against as it runs, will have blood on it. Speaking of head and neck shots, can you imagine how difficult it would be to find blood if one of those shots were botched? Those wounds bleed a lot less. There's a good chance that animal will never be found, and then you'll be even more frustrated.

I've made lots of lung shots on deer, black bear and moose, and can't recall one ever going passed about 60 yards, but there has always been blood to find. Bang flops are pretty rare.

[wideopenthrottle]

my last deer was lying down at about 75 yards and it was looking away from me...it got one through the spine and out the chest complete pass through...it never got up...30-06 165 gr ballistic tip...

[.308SLAYER]

Bull elk this year 50 yards right under the kisser dropped on the spot .308....but I guess I should of waited for him to walk by me and lung him have him run down the mountain into the thickest steepest shit known to man got him in the truck whole...

[.308SLAYER]

Every situation is different every hunt is different I think it's up to the person which knows his/her capabilities to judge what is best range...caliber...shooting efficiency....size of the animal being taken...

[AlexPdHJ]

My last whitetail was double lung, shot from 20m distance with 180gr Barnes TTSX bullet from my .30-06. No blood at all and ground was covered in fresh snow. He ran into the bush and collapsed 20m away. One blood drop the size of a quarter 2 feet from where he lay.

[todbartell]

I've found if a deer doesn't drop in its tracks, they only go 40 yards and then pile up. 50% of the ones I've shot have dropped in their tracks with cartridges ranging from the 221 Fireball up to 416 Rem Mag

[buckhunter76]

Depends on your confidence really how you shoot game, for deer if it less than 100 yards im shooting the head if I can, if not I go for upper neck, have taken a lot of deer this way and they don't move, over 100 yards I go for vitals, bigger game always vitals, only neck/head if close, I don't suggest head or neck if you are not confident in it though, I just do it because I am confident and no meat is really wasted. I think anyone starting out though always vitals, always be confident of your shot before you take it, if it bolts stay calm wait minimum 15 minutes and go look for sign, just because you don't see blood right away doesn't mean it's not hit or wasn't a good shot, have had a few double lungs that didn't start leaking for the first 30-40 yards from where the shot was taken, when I take people just getting into hunting out and teach them my rule is if it ain't broadside and your crosshairs aren't behind the shoulder you ain't taking it. Long story short it's all about your experience, your confidence in accuracy

[Ourea]

Talked at length to me friend about taking "the shot" prior to sitting in the blind.
Really like the high shoulder spine shot.
If executed properly.....they simply bounce right there.
Here's a kill from one of my blinds that demonstrates said shot.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9wb6NUatTU

[ryanb]

Blacktail i shot last year was at about 40 yards in old growth timber . After the shot it bolted downhill. Gave it 20 minutes and walked down to where it had been standing. I was shocked to see no blood at all. There was snow on the ground but a mess of tracks leading everywhere. I followed what I guessed to be my bucks tracks based on the direction it ran. Went 100 yards and became convinced I had somehow missed. Kept following the tracks and was pleasantly surprised to find a dead buck after another 50 yards. The bullet had entered just behind the shoulder and the shoulder muscle had covered the entry and there was zero blood. Both lungs and the top of the heart were hit.

Had there not been snow on the ground I'm not confident I ever would have found that buck.

[Linksman313]

I am used of chewing on some less than good eaters as a result of chasing older class animals.
After coming to realize the lack of a conservation concern with killing WT does .....I killed one last year.
The quality and texture ...the "clean" taste....wow.
Exceptional.

Having said that I am amping up and getting pretty stoked over the approaching WT rut.

The 3 yr old+ bucks will make their inaugural return in the next week or so.
Very much looking forward to pulling cards then and seeing the arrival of quality bucks.

Side note -
A lot of people criticize the "trophy hunting" attitude.
I am sure the definition reads differently for each person.

I live to find and hunt trophy deer and elk.
It floats my boat, stimulates my brain and I enjoy the process and the amount of time and effort it requires.
I doesn't make my dick bigger or make me feel like I need to beat my chest.
(yet to post a story or enter a B&C kill of mine in the books)

I simply embrace the challenge and enjoy every inch of the process.

People can criticize the "trophy fag" mindset all they want.
To each their own.

The part I find interesting is that whenever someone posts up a hard earned trophy caliber animal, the views and excitement expressed is high.... "deer of a lifetime and such".

Hunting, and the opportunity it affords, speaks to people in different ways and at different levels.
To each their own.

It is a great sport.
It is a healthy interest from a lifestyle perspective.


WT can tick so many of those boxes for hunters.
* easy access
* great eating
* challenging to kill in pressured areas despite good numbers
* little conservation concerns with aggressive harvest (studied to death}
* still affords trophy buck opportunity in easily accessed areas (for the most part) come late season.

Here's his proof people, fine looking table fare there and no need to run 100yds to track it down







Talked at length to me friend about taking "the shot" prior to sitting in the blind.
Really like the high shoulder spine shot.
If executed properly.....they simply bounce right there.
Here's a kill from one of my blinds that demonstrates said shot.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9wb6NUatTU

[Ourea]

To be clear.....friend of mine killed this buck out of one of my blinds.....not me.

His shot was perfect.
It demonstrates the effectiveness of the high shoulder shot.

Hopefully I will do the same on one of my target bucks this month.
Conditions are certainly not ideal however.

Will be great to share a video of a large WT going down in his tracks.

[mikeman20]

On deer I've only ever had bang flops, I've had moose run though after a double lung shot.

I'm not sure why my deer just drop when double lunged vs running when others do it.

[bacon_overlord]

Filled my LEH mule doe tag last week,
40 or so yard shot, double lung with 7mm RM using 150gr TSX. She ran about 40 yards and then lay down.
My brother in law was watching thru binos, saw the bullet hit and a shockwave go thru the animal, then blood sprayed with every heartbeat.
IMO double lung shot may not be the fastest kill shots, but are definitely the surest.
I love the TSX, first time using them, barely any meat damage. Switched from 140gr SSTS after losing all the rib and chest meat of a deer and bear to fragment damage.

[Gateholio]

Talked at length to me friend about taking "the shot" prior to sitting in the blind.
Really like the high shoulder spine shot.
If executed properly.....they simply bounce right there.
Here's a kill from one of my blinds that demonstrates said shot.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9wb6NUatTU

Good video, same shot I took recently with my Tavor .223. Deer reaction the same.

[Norwestalta]

Over the years I've shot quite a few whitetail near and far using 243(don't know which bullets), 30-06( 165 hornady btsp, 165 sst),338 wm (185 ttsx,225 sst), 257 wby(can't remember 115 tsx?) and 25-06(117 Berger). Some head shots,some neck shots and some boiler room. I would figure 98% have been one hop then dead. I can't remember ever having to track a deer to recover it.

Elk is a different story all together. Lol