Findlay Creek Outfitters

[findlyflats]

Mike Christensen, the guide, sold his Findlay/Doctor Creek operation and because there were no clients that signed up for a hunt this year, all was at a 'standstill'
This is not good, having hunted the Findlay creek area for over 25 years i have seen the elk populations plummet.
Its the same situation where i live, the open hunting for some to hunt male, female and yearlings only results in the animal populations to plummet to a unsustainable level.
Mike hunts the high mountain elk that come down in the winter after the season ends, but this intense off season hunting makes them susceptible to meat hunting.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

So you are blaming the drop in numbers of game populations on hunting?

[Bugle M In]

Mike Christensen, the guide, sold his Findlay/Doctor Creek operation and because there were no clients that signed up for a hunt this year, all was at a 'standstill'
This is not good, having hunted the Findlay creek area for over 25 years i have seen the elk populations plummet.
Its the same situation where i live, the open hunting for some to hunt male, female and yearlings only results in the animal populations to plummet to a unsustainable level.
Mike hunts the high mountain elk that come down in the winter after the season ends, but this intense off season hunting makes them susceptible to meat hunting.

Sorry, but I am confused??
What do you mean by "off-season hunting".
I have met Mike, new his father better however.
I know the area you speak of.
I also know from talking to CO's that another outfitter, where I hunt close by, is also having
troubles finding clients.
Actually, from talking to the guide...he is having trouble finding Elk!
The previous outfitter (and I am glad they are gone...poachers IMO) sold do to no elk.
I have been hunting up there for 35 years now, and have seen the Elk plummet in numbers etc.
The major off season hunting that I am aware of....is from Wolves and more G-Bears.
I am not aware of any major poaching going on, and have even enquired to a CO (who I know well in Invermere),
and he says he is not aware of any serious issues in the area....again, just wolves.
Can you elaborate more?

Also, side note....did big Earl hit the ground (did you have success?)

[325]

Sorry, but I am confused??
What do you mean by "off-season hunting".
I have met Mike, new his father better however.
I know the area you speak of.
I also know from talking to CO's that another outfitter, where I hunt close by, is also having
troubles finding clients.
Actually, from talking to the guide...he is having trouble finding Elk!
The previous outfitter (and I am glad they are gone...poachers IMO) sold do to no elk.
I have been hunting up there for 35 years now, and have seen the Elk plummet in numbers etc.
The major off season hunting that I am aware of....is from Wolves and more G-Bears.
I am not aware of any major poaching going on, and have even enquired to a CO (who I know well in Invermere),
and he says he is not aware of any serious issues in the area....again, just wolves.
Can you elaborate more?

Also, side note....did big Earl hit the ground (did you have success?)

Grizzly bears are a huge factor in declining elk herds. The research has shown ~40% of elk calves are killed by grizzly. Studies of moose mortality in Alaska have similar results. This year alone I witnessed grizzlies chasing elk on two occasions. One grizzly my buddy shot as it was chasing a cow this spring (yes, he had a tag). We saw another grizzly chasing elk this fall. It's a far bigger problem than most realize or will admit. Probably a bigger issue than wolves.

Black bears can also prey heavily on elk calves. One researcher has been studying an elk herd in Alberta that has declined from nearly 4000 animals, to about 200. It turns out that boar black bears are destroying recruitment. Interesting stuff.

[Bugle M In]

Grizzly bears are a huge factor in declining elk herds. The research has shown ~40% of elk calves are killed by grizzly. Studies of moose mortality in Alaska have similar results. This year alone I witnessed grizzlies chasing elk on two occasions. One grizzly my buddy shot as it was chasing a cow this spring (yes, he had a tag). We saw another grizzly chasing elk this fall. It's a far bigger problem than most realize or will admit. Probably a bigger issue than wolves.

Black bears can also prey heavily on elk calves. One researcher has been studying an elk herd in Alberta that has declined from nearly 4000 animals, to about 200. It turns out that boar black bears are destroying recruitment. Interesting stuff.

What Irony!
When speaking to the GO where I go, I asked him about the G-Bear and B-bear in the area.
I told him, I have never in all these years, and my father, longer than I, seen so many Bears as now.
Cougar and obviously Wolf as well.
the GO tells me that part of the reason is....he is not hunting them.....yet....get this....why....
He wants them to be Trophy Sized!
The kicker is....the Bears, especially G-Bear, are right in the same vicinity as were the Cow Elk drop there Calves!
Left me shaking my head....
So, I buy B-Bear Tags now.
And, if a Fall LEH G-Bear ever happens....I'm in.
Also the fact that they are coming into camps now, and aren't very fearful of hunters/humans anymore.
It is a problem....I am sure of it.

[findlyflats]

I have camped in the findlay and about 10 years ago we met some natives , they where not from the area , where impressed with the game and said they where coming back after the snow hits.
That November a local heard shooting up fir mt and went to investigate, the natives where loading 6 elk in the trucks and when they left the local went back.

He said there where blood trails leading down the hill, the human tracks only followed a little way then stopped. the resident heard up fir was about 25 elk back then and could bee seen every morning. if 6 + cows and calfs where shot every year, how long would it take for the heard to get down to the 4 i saw last year.
If you speak to mike, ask him what he thinks about the native hunting affecting the findlay elk herds in the last 15 years.
From what i under stand, the moose population went the same way.
Where i live, the deer population is extremely low, we all know it is from poaching of does, fawns and bucks that are sold.
It is sad to see such poor management and the co from invermere has to be politically correct when asked why the elk numbers are so low.

[Xbow]

Hummm a Native troll perhaps?????? lets get er goin blame the natives

[GOLDEN TOP SNIPER]

Too many Hunters, Not enough Game . Some wolfs.. I mean sure there are G-Bears, But are they the main culprit. I dont think so . The Natives around there dont take that many Elk , some ,but i dont really know for sure how many .Wolves arent the main issue either.. Hard to say . .Up here in Golden the Hunting really sucks . Its too Overhunted. too many moose draws for areas that were good several years ago . Some Elk around, but there pinned downed by wolves,Hunting pressure .. They dont answer much .. We have thicker And steeper Terrain .. Some Deer , But most keep low and deep.. sometimes we head south for Mule and Whitetail later in the season . Thats Hunting so they say..

[325]

Too many Hunters, Not enough Game . Some wolfs.. I mean sure there are G-Bears, But are they the main culprit. I dont think so . The Natives around there dont take that many Elk , some ,but i dont really know for sure how many .Wolves arent the main issue either.. Hard to say . .Up here in Golden the Hunting really sucks . Its too Overhunted. too many moose draws for areas that were good several years ago . Some Elk around, but there pinned downed by wolves,Hunting pressure .. They dont answer much .. We have thicker And steeper Terrain .. Some Deer , But most keep low and deep.. sometimes we head south for Mule and Whitetail later in the season . Thats Hunting so they say..

Why don't you think grizzlies are preying heavily on ungulates?? What evidence do you have to support that belief?

[Fisher-Dude]

Too many Hunters, Not enough Game . Some wolfs.. I mean sure there are G-Bears, But are they the main culprit. I dont think so . The Natives around there dont take that many Elk , some ,but i dont really know for sure how many .Wolves arent the main issue either.. Hard to say . .Up here in Golden the Hunting really sucks . Its too Overhunted. too many moose draws for areas that were good several years ago . Some Elk around, but there pinned downed by wolves,Hunting pressure .. They dont answer much .. We have thicker And steeper Terrain .. Some Deer , But most keep low and deep.. sometimes we head south for Mule and Whitetail later in the season . Thats Hunting so they say..

Can you explain to us how a 6 point elk season results in low elk populations?

[bridger]

[QUOTE=Fisher-Dude;1834402]Can you explain to us how a 6 point elk season results in low elk populations?[/QUOTE

No he can't.. lol

[GOLDEN TOP SNIPER]

i didnt say i could . Its just my opinions .Nothing more . I would say its simply a combination , there is no one overwhelming factor . I have hunted the area , i Have Friends who Hunt the Area . Its just my Opinion. Im not going to argue any of the points .

[Fisher-Dude]

http://akphoto1.ask.fm/279/818/383/-39996998-1snollh-d1foirai6tgapkp/original/file.jpg

[GOLDEN TOP SNIPER]

I think i clearly said it the first time . Hard to say what the main reason is . . personally , i have my opinions on some the stated facts , but i really dont and wont get into them on this site . I prefer to come on this site and review gear , read stories ., cheer people on , give my advice if someone wants it . , i have meet some good people from it . gone hunting with them , had them help me with some questions i have about hunting and gear . i have not or never will claim i know everything , because i dont ..

[findlyflats]

Can you explain to us how a 6 point elk season results in low elk populations?

The 6 point season worked wonders to bring back the bulls from the former 3 point season, the question is , where are all the cows going.

when i hear an account of a eye witness say he saw cow elks loaded into a truck, I can figure out that if you kill off all the cows, it will have a impact on the elk population. If all you harvest is 6 points it will not.

I would like to say , it is not the Columbia valley natives who are doing it, i met some and i know where they are from.

For those who do not think un regulated hunting cant have a impact on elk ,Talk to the guys who live in the flats year round, talk to mike and you will have a better idea about the plummeting elk population.

[GOLDEN TOP SNIPER]

like i said . some things i wouldnt want to get into on this site . I Have no problem with 6point season . and there is bow too for any bull in Sept. . So its hard to put your finger on one cause . I just dont like how this one moose draw spot we have near here , they give out 25 draws when several years ago , they only gave out less than 6 . The area is shot out . sure there is some around . but its not like it used to be . not sure why they feel the need to give out that many draws .. i guess they have there reasons..

[Glenny]

So no one really knows. Do the biologists have any ideas?

[325]

If there is a high level of unregulated harvest, then that may play a huge role in declining populations.

Typically, the level of recruitment (how many calves survive) dictates over-all population.

[Spy]

All predators ( humans included) have played a role in the decline, everywhere in BC! Bad management of the recourse has allowed it. If you want to cut the wolfs share, cull the wolves to a manageable level. If you want too cut the bears share, manage the bears ? Guides and Resident Hunters are already managed! We just need the other piece of the puzzle too get on board and we can, maybe start managing wildlife!

[GOLDEN TOP SNIPER]

Bingo . give that man a cigar .

[LBM]

Can you explain to us how a 6 point elk season results in low elk populations?

Its quit simple, that's just a regulation in the synopsis for those that want to follow it, the majority don't. If you think Elk
of all sizes and sex are not shot all year long then you really don't have a clue or just don't care.
To many are scared to let it be none that humans are a big part of the problem, they are to worried about losing there opportunity
to kill something.
Bugle me in, not taking about Mikes MU but the MU you typically hunt in I no of 18 elk shot of those 6 were illegal/poached, oh and
a moose poached as well and then there was the short sheep again showing FD how point or horn restrictions are not fail safes.
Im sure you or others may walk around there later this fall or next year and find some of there bones and blame it on wolves or cats or bears
but they more then likely just cleaned them up.
Again that's just in the one MU theres other illegal/ poached kills in other MUs as well, more elk, a couple other moose, the 3 other short sheep, a couple black bears oh
and a cougar.
Humans are the worst offenders, way out number the 4 legged predators and do it all year long as well.

[Fisher-Dude]

Its quit simple, that's just a regulation in the synopsis for those that want to follow it, the majority don't. If you think Elk
of all sizes and sex are not shot all year long then you really don't have a clue or just don't care.
To many are scared to let it be none that humans are a big part of the problem, they are to worried about losing there opportunity
to kill something.
Bugle me in, not taking about Mikes MU but the MU you typically hunt in I no of 18 elk shot of those 6 were illegal/poached, oh and
a moose poached as well and then there was the short sheep again showing FD how point or horn restrictions are not fail safes.
Im sure you or others may walk around there later this fall or next year and find some of there bones and blame it on wolves or cats or bears
but they more then likely just cleaned them up.
Again that's just in the one MU theres other illegal/ poached kills in other MUs as well, more elk, a couple other moose, the 3 other short sheep, a couple black bears oh
and a cougar.
Humans are the worst offenders, way out number the 4 legged predators and do it all year long as well.


Did you report those 6 illegal elk?

And the 3 illegal sheep?

And the moose?

[Rob Chipman]

^^^Report them and/or post pictures and details of poaching on the forum.

[Fisher-Dude]

All predators ( humans included) have played a role in the decline, everywhere in BC! Bad management of the recourse has allowed it. If you want to cut the wolfs share, cull the wolves to a manageable level. If you want too cut the bears share, manage the bears ? Guides and Resident Hunters are already managed! We just need the other piece of the puzzle too get on board and we can, maybe start managing wildlife!


Interesting study done in Idaho on mule deer.

They aerial gunned every single wolf, bear, and coyote from a management unit, and shot every single one that dared wander into it after the resident preds were shot off.

Mule deer numbers in that area declined after all the preds were killed.

Surprised me too when the researchers presented their findings.

When asked what was done in the other study areas where mule deer populations actually increased, her answer was "Habitat, habitat, habitat."

[BGA]

Fisher Dude nailed it in my opinion with the habitat comment.

My group hunted Findlay for years(decades). We have not been there in a few years now (2012). Area needs to burn to open it up. Winter and transitional range needs some house keeping to fight off the ingrowth.

Not saying other factors are not at play but habitat I believe is key.

[Bugle M In]

Its quit simple, that's just a regulation in the synopsis for those that want to follow it, the majority don't. If you think Elk
of all sizes and sex are not shot all year long then you really don't have a clue or just don't care.
To many are scared to let it be none that humans are a big part of the problem, they are to worried about losing there opportunity
to kill something.
Bugle me in, not taking about Mikes MU but the MU you typically hunt in I no of 18 elk shot of those 6 were illegal/poached, oh and
a moose poached as well and then there was the short sheep again showing FD how point or horn restrictions are not fail safes.
Im sure you or others may walk around there later this fall or next year and find some of there bones and blame it on wolves or cats or bears
but they more then likely just cleaned them up.
Again that's just in the one MU theres other illegal/ poached kills in other MUs as well, more elk, a couple other moose, the 3 other short sheep, a couple black bears oh
and a cougar.
Humans are the worst offenders, way out number the 4 legged predators and do it all year long as well.

LBM, have you reported this to the CO's.
I remember a previous thread, where we were talking about the area I hunt in, that you were saying there was poaching
going on in the area.
I spoke to the CO in Invermere, thru email (in August), and I asked him if there was in fact "poaching" going on in the area,
because I have noticed a drastic drop in elk numbers, and mentioned to him that someone (I didn't give him your
name or details), on this forum, had made mention of "knowing" and "stating" that there was in fact "poaching going on".
He stated that "not/none to his knowledge, was he aware of any poaching going on, or, no more poaching than anywhere
else"(In other words, nothing out of the ordinary, or anything to be overly concerned with).

Again, I did not pass along to him a "name/call sign", but only that one member on this Forum (HuntingBC) was
saying that poaching was in fact going on.
His advice, was for "you" to contact him directly, and let him know the details of what you are aware of.
He is a great guy, his name is Sergeant Umsonst, in Invermere.
I know he will investigate if you inform him directly.
I hope that you take the time to do so....
Thank you

[Bugle M In]

Interesting study done in Idaho on mule deer.

They aerial gunned every single wolf, bear, and coyote from a management unit, and shot every single one that dared wander into it after the resident preds were shot off.

Mule deer numbers in that area declined after all the preds were killed.

Surprised me too when the researchers presented their findings.

When asked what was done in the other study areas where mule deer populations actually increased, her answer was "Habitat, habitat, habitat."

I understand the habitat issue....believe me, but, here is my concern/confusion.
Where I hunt in the EK, there is "so much logging" that has happened, and a lot of it is in it's "prime" for feed.
Not just there, but thru out the entire area (many watersheds)...yet very little sign of elk.
Granted, I know "Burns" are what is really needed, but I can assure you, even in the park at kootenay crossing
(large prescribed burn), from what I have been told, it still hasn't produced an increase in elk numbers??
That burn is already....what...10 years ago appr.
Most of the Elk I saw, were on the private properties from golden to radium, along the Columbia river.
There's a ton of issues.
As for the 6 pt rule, I can't say it made any difference...IMO.
All it did was make me chase down the "herd bull" more times than not who had a bunch of cows.
Than, after taking that bull, watching a 5pt parade around with those same cows for the rest of the week.
(and if I didn't take down that herd bull, someone else already had, and I watched a 5pt parade around cows all week.)
I know/understand it is in the gene's, not the antlers, but, mother nature had...can I say...intended for that 6 pt
herd bull I shot, or someone else, to do the breeding....not that younger 5pt, who may not have "proven" himself
yet to know whether he would ever be herd bull material.
Now, I can't say whether those 6 pt herd bulls had bred cows by the time they were shot, or not.
But, if they hadn't, I ended up messing up mother natures natural cycle.
I would have been just as happy taking a 3pt.
The only people happy that it became p6t, were GO's.
And they were only happy because, now, there would be "trophy antlered sized" elk for their clients.
As far as I am concerned, "you can't eat the antlers".
The largest impact and rebound that I saw over the years for the elk, was when they got rid of those "massive amounts"
of "cow leh tags".
Once they did that, I started to see way more cows, and bulls with big harems (around year 2000).
I know 6616, felt that this was a big issue for elk decline in the 90's.
But, we had a 6pt rule since when?..1996...I think.
The issue now is bigger and different than at any other time in the past.

[LBM]

Did you report those 6 illegal elk?

And the 3 illegal sheep?

And the moose?

No I did not.

[LBM]

LBM, have you reported this to the CO's.
I remember a previous thread, where we were talking about the area I hunt in, that you were saying there was poaching
going on in the area.
I spoke to the CO in Invermere, thru email (in August), and I asked him if there was in fact "poaching" going on in the area,
because I have noticed a drastic drop in elk numbers, and mentioned to him that someone (I didn't give him your
name or details), on this forum, had made mention of "knowing" and "stating" that there was in fact "poaching going on".
He stated that "not/none to his knowledge, was he aware of any poaching going on, or, no more poaching than anywhere
else"(In other words, nothing out of the ordinary, or anything to be overly concerned with).

Again, I did not pass along to him a "name/call sign", but only that one member on this Forum (HuntingBC) was
saying that poaching was in fact going on.
His advice, was for "you" to contact him directly, and let him know the details of what you are aware of.
He is a great guy, his name is Sergeant Umsonst, in Invermere.
I know he will investigate if you inform him directly.
I hope that you take the time to do so....
Thank you

No I did not report this to them, are they aware of the majority of it, Yes. Many people do not bother reporting most things any more for nothing will or can be done.
When a poached animal is found and reported but not gone to look at for 3 or 4 days, kind of a waste of time. When a person is reported for poaching and then does it again a few months later and reported again and you ask what happened the first time and are told they haven't been looked into yet, kind of seems like a waste of ones time. Can not go out any day here with out seeing some sort of illegal activity/poaching as mentioned above the majority don't care about the regs.
Yes I no Mr Umsonst, does he reveal everything to you I would say not. To bad from what you say to him poaching is nothing to be overly concerned about,
this could be why many don't report stuff to them.

[Fisher-Dude]

No I did not.

If you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

[Elkaholic]

I understand the habitat issue....believe me, but, here is my concern/confusion.
Where I hunt in the EK, there is "so much logging" that has happened, and a lot of it is in it's "prime" for feed.
Not just there, but thru out the entire area (many watersheds)...yet very little sign of elk.
Granted, I know "Burns" are what is really needed, but I can assure you, even in the park at kootenay crossing
(large prescribed burn), from what I have been told, it still hasn't produced an increase in elk numbers??
That burn is already....what...10 years ago appr.
Most of the Elk I saw, were on the private properties from golden to radium, along the Columbia river.
There's a ton of issues.
As for the 6 pt rule, I can't say it made any difference...IMO.
All it did was make me chase down the "herd bull" more times than not who had a bunch of cows.
Than, after taking that bull, watching a 5pt parade around with those same cows for the rest of the week.
(and if I didn't take down that herd bull, someone else already had, and I watched a 5pt parade around cows all week.)
I know/understand it is in the gene's, not the antlers, but, mother nature had...can I say...intended for that 6 pt
herd bull I shot, or someone else, to do the breeding....not that younger 5pt, who may not have "proven" himself
yet to know whether he would ever be herd bull material.
Now, I can't say whether those 6 pt herd bulls had bred cows by the time they were shot, or not.
But, if they hadn't, I ended up messing up mother natures natural cycle.
I would have been just as happy taking a 3pt.
The only people happy that it became p6t, were GO's.
And they were only happy because, now, there would be "trophy antlered sized" elk for their clients.
As far as I am concerned, "you can't eat the antlers".
The largest impact and rebound that I saw over the years for the elk, was when they got rid of those "massive amounts"
of "cow leh tags".
Once they did that, I started to see way more cows, and bulls with big harems (around year 2000).
I know 6616, felt that this was a big issue for elk decline in the 90's.
But, we had a 6pt rule since when?..1996...I think.
The issue now is bigger and different than at any other time in the past.

Too much common sense in this post! 6 pt season just lowers the age class of bulls and now all you see is young bulls running and gunning with their 1-3 cows, its very odd to see an actual harem these days. Its a great short term measure to bring up recruitment but not a long term strategy for elk.

[Seeadler]

Funny, I was watching a herd the last week of elk season, there were a few small 5 points and 1 big 5 point hanging around them, then 3 days after the season ended, there was a big 7x7 with them. I find plenty of 6 point sheds in the spring. IMO, there are plenty of 6 point bulls surviving and they only come out at night.

[Fisher-Dude]

6 point elk really have little to do with the overall elk population.

Calf recruitment determines the elk population.

All that's needed from bulls is a sperm supply. Spikes to 5 points have lots of sperm.

Elk are managed to 20:100 sex ratios, and that's easy to hit with a 6 point season. Even with ratios as low as 8:100, pregnancy rates will be north of 90%. Getting the cows bred isn't a problem.

The problem is calf recruitment. Calf recruitment is not affected by our current hunting seasons with the limited antlerless LEH being largely compensatory mortality on calves.

Calves need habitat and a chance to escape predation. Changing a 6 point elk season isn't going to do one single thing to help that.

[Spy]

6 point elk really have little to do with the overall elk population.

Calf recruitment determines the elk population.

All that's needed from bulls is a sperm supply. Spikes to 5 points have lots of sperm.

Elk are managed to 20:100 sex ratios, and that's easy to hit with a 6 point season. Even with ratios as low as 8:100, pregnancy rates will be north of 90%. Getting the cows bred isn't a problem.

The problem is calf recruitment. Calf recruitment is not affected by our current hunting seasons with the limited antlerless LEH being largely compensatory mortality on calves.

Calves need habitat and a chance to escape predation. Changing a 6 point elk season isn't going to do one single thing to help that.
So I'm sure the Bios know more or less where they drop their calves, how about hitting the preds Bears and Wolves hard in that area before they drop, just an idea.

[Fisher-Dude]

So I'm sure the Bios know more or less where they drop their calves, how about hitting the preds Bears and Wolves hard in that area before they drop, just an idea.

That's part of it.

The other part is habitat. Some on this thread think a bunch of new logging with browse is good habitat - it may have lots of feed, but it doesn't offer thermal cover nor escape terrain.

Habitat is more than just groceries.

[Spy]

That's part of it.

The other part is habitat. Some on this thread think a bunch of new logging with browse is good habitat - it may have lots of feed, but it doesn't offer thermal cover nor escape terrain.

Habitat is more than just groceries.
Agreed but now the damage has being done, so now we have to micro manage all preds if we want more elk deer ect, while we are recreating habitat.

[monasheemountainman]

No I did not report this to them, are they aware of the majority of it, Yes. Many people do not bother reporting most things any more for nothing will or can be done.
When a poached animal is found and reported but not gone to look at for 3 or 4 days, kind of a waste of time. When a person is reported for poaching and then does it again a few months later and reported again and you ask what happened the first time and are told they haven't been looked into yet, kind of seems like a waste of ones time. Can not go out any day here with out seeing some sort of illegal activity/poaching as mentioned above the majority don't care about the regs.
Yes I no Mr Umsonst, does he reveal everything to you I would say not. To bad from what you say to him poaching is nothing to be overly concerned about,
this could be why many don't report stuff to them.

youre kind of making shit up, you don't know it will take 3 or 4 days for a co to follow up with a RAPP call. I've heard of and seen first hand co's respond instantly to a call. For you to decide it's not worth it to call them, to me, is just irresponsible.

[Iltasyuko]

Interesting study done in Idaho on mule deer.

They aerial gunned every single wolf, bear, and coyote from a management unit, and shot every single one that dared wander into it after the resident preds were shot off.

Mule deer numbers in that area declined after all the preds were killed.

Surprised me too when the researchers presented their findings.

When asked what was done in the other study areas where mule deer populations actually increased, her answer was "Habitat, habitat, habitat."

Haven't read this study but there's got to be more to the story. The way this reads - predators were reduced / eliminated and at the same time the habitat in the study area degraded to the point the landscape could no longer sustain the pre-study MD population causing the decline ?

[Bugle M In]

No I did not report this to them, are they aware of the majority of it, Yes. Many people do not bother reporting most things any more for nothing will or can be done.
When a poached animal is found and reported but not gone to look at for 3 or 4 days, kind of a waste of time. When a person is reported for poaching and then does it again a few months later and reported again and you ask what happened the first time and are told they haven't been looked into yet, kind of seems like a waste of ones time. Can not go out any day here with out seeing some sort of illegal activity/poaching as mentioned above the majority don't care about the regs.
Yes I no Mr Umsonst, does he reveal everything to you I would say not. To bad from what you say to him poaching is nothing to be overly concerned about,
this could be why many don't report stuff to them.

I would say I have a very good relation with Sergeant Umsonst (Lawrence).
He is also a hunter, and has told me personally that he has the utmost respect for my hunting ethics.
He does care what is going on, and had there been reports, he would have told me, even if they had not
investigated, but that if there were reports of poaching/illegal activity....he would have told me.....for sure.

The only report he had from last season, was someone shooting a mule buck that was mistaken for a white tail,
thus, the buck didn't meet the 4pt criteria....so illegal kill.
These hunters "self reported" themselves.
As for illegal activity, in regards to road closures, and people breaking that law.....that is nothing new!
I generally report 2 vehicles each year I am up there (and I will continue to do so!).

Do take the time to contact him.
Let him know what you are seeing.

Obviously, you know who I am (not sure if you are one of the truckers?), Alaskan Camper and on mountain bikes.
And yes that 77 year old guy still riding that mountain bike is my father.
So you know what watershed it is.

Just tell Umsonst that Andrew asked you to call in and report what you are seeing.
It's the right thing to do, and worth the effort of a phone call.

[Bugle M In]

6 point elk really have little to do with the overall elk population.

Calf recruitment determines the elk population.

All that's needed from bulls is a sperm supply. Spikes to 5 points have lots of sperm.

Elk are managed to 20:100 sex ratios, and that's easy to hit with a 6 point season. Even with ratios as low as 8:100, pregnancy rates will be north of 90%. Getting the cows bred isn't a problem.

The problem is calf recruitment. Calf recruitment is not affected by our current hunting seasons with the limited antlerless LEH being largely compensatory mortality on calves.

Calves need habitat and a chance to escape predation. Changing a 6 point elk season isn't going to do one single thing to help that.

I am not saying that changing the 6 pt rule is going to change elk populations.
I get the sperm thing....we all have it if you are male.
Just, some of us have better genes in the sperm than others :razz:.
And the only way to know who does from these bulls is to let "mother nature" do it's thing.
Bulls fighting for the right to breed.
That is my one concern....that's all.
I think mother nature has it figured out better than we will ever do.....no??

Anyways, it is only my opinion on the fact that 6pt rule wasn't going to help the problem that was occurring when
it was implemented.
The liberal "cow LEH" at the time was the big big problem...IMO.

Right now, the issues is much much bigger than ever before, and it goes beyond leh tags for sure.
I think you and I, as well as many others are on the same page.
There needs to be something done quickly.
We both know there are many factors.

-explosion in all Preds
-lack of new Scree Slopes (do to low snow levels or lack of snow thru winter)
-Easy Access (legal and illegal)
-Blowdown/Windfall (that windstorm a few years back, that hit the whole kootenay region
made a huge impact where I hunt, and not for the good)
-Fire/Burns and lack of.....in part, do to those blowdowns, we need it more than ever.
Also to revive habitat/feed, without creating more access roads thru logging
-Winter Range Revival
Not sure how that is going to work?
Are we going to tear down developments to restore traditional Winter Ranges again?
Towns are growing, more and more private lands.
-More CO time in the field....
Are we actually going to see more funding?
Are we going actually see "ALL" our money that we pay for tags and licenses go back into Hunting/Rehabilitation?
-Transplants, I see that happening, but we hardly get new opportunities (GOS) from them to disperse Hunters
more thru out the province.
Only ones benefitting fro them at times seems to be FN...IMO.

I know that people have different experiences out in the filed...success or not.
Many that have regular success are locals...they have time to get out more often.
They may also have friendships with some that own private land.
Others are generally in the Forestry Field, they are out and about on a daily basis, and get a good idea to what
is going on in the area they are working.
People like myself, don't have those opportunities, and I have to go up each season, and try to figure out what is
around, and where to concentrate on.....so luck is a big factor for me.
Why people on this forum sometimes debate one persons experiences from another always puzzles me at times.
Basically, the once renowned Palliser Country is just not the same right now.
Some like Ourea, hunted the High Country (from what I have seen on his photos IMO), and the Elk are gone.
I hunt the area between the High Country and Lowlands, and the Elk are declining big time.
The only Elk I see on a regular basis are in the Lowlands, like zone x, and we have been hitting them for the
last bunch of years.
Whats left?

Anyways, I am on the same side as you, and want to see Elk numbers come back.
Not just Elk, but to see others concerns for Moose and Mule Deer thru out the province as well.

Than maybe we can get rid of the 6pt rule, back down to 3pt or better.
The 6pt rule didn't make a huge difference.
Elk are still declining.
And the is the real concern, and nothing is happening.
And, what I suspect what will happen, is a shut down or limited opportunities in the future if the Ministries past is any
indication of the future????

[Walking Buffalo]

Interesting study done in Idaho on mule deer.

They aerial gunned every single wolf, bear, and coyote from a management unit, and shot every single one that dared wander into it after the resident preds were shot off.

Mule deer numbers in that area declined after all the preds were killed.

Surprised me too when the researchers presented their findings.

When asked what was done in the other study areas where mule deer populations actually increased, her answer was "Habitat, habitat, habitat."


Can you provide a link to the study, or the author and studies' name?

Did she discuss any details of the "habitat" issue that caused a population decline?

What would happen if the "habitat" was improved and predators were left alone?

Lots of examples of areas with great habitat that are now void of prey species after high predator populations became established.

[GoatGuy]

Hurley did the work being discussed. The summary isn't quite accurate. They did coyote removal aerially and cougar on the ground.

A presentation he made to BCWF AGM in 2014

http://bcwf.net/images/stories/2014_AGM/presentations/Friday/Idaho%20Mule%20Deer%20Management%20-%20Mark%20Hurley.pdf

[Walking Buffalo]

Hurley did the work being discussed. The summary isn't quite accurate. They did coyote removal aerially and cougar on the ground.

A presentation he made to BCWF AGM in 2014

http://bcwf.net/images/stories/2014_AGM/presentations/Friday/Idaho%20Mule%20Deer%20Management%20-%20Mark%20Hurley.pdf

Thanks. An impressive amount of work must have been involved.
Makes me wonder how people were ever able to maintain wildlife without this detailed analysis. ;)

As is typical, the presentation does not offer the ability to dig into the research and make an opinion of either the techniques or results.

What I get out of it is that FD's post is BS.

[GoatGuy]

Thanks. An impressive amount of work must have been involved.
Makes me wonder how people were ever able to maintain wildlife without this detailed analysis. ;)

As is typical, the presentation does not offer the ability to dig into the research and make an opinion of either the techniques or results.

What I get out of it is that FD's post is BS.
hahaha
just google mark hurley and mule deer something should pop up
If you have access to journals through a university you will have access to a pile

[boxhitch]

not the first time
It began in the 1990s, when state wildlife managers started reporting lower mule deer populations and decreased fawn-to-doe ratios throughout the West.
Across its first four years, the Idaho coyote study “managed” (killed) almost a thousand coyotes (at an average cost of $167 each) — resulting in negligible gains in deer “production.
huffingtonpost.com/david-petersen/the-mule-deer-wars_

[GoatGuy]

Thanks. An impressive amount of work must have been involved.
Makes me wonder how people were ever able to maintain wildlife without this detailed analysis. ;)

As is typical, the presentation does not offer the ability to dig into the research and make an opinion of either the techniques or results.

What I get out of it is that FD's post is BS.

The message coming out of the research down south with regards to mule deer right now is habitat, habitat, habitat. Heavy does drop heavy fawns which have much higher survival rates.

To my knowledge there's only one study on predator management for deer in NA that was successful and it was wolf removal for BTs on VI. There have been dozens of others but the results are generally short-term, weak or negligible.

Abstract from some of the work.
http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1002/wmon.4?journalCode=wmon

[Walking Buffalo]

The message coming out of the research down south with regards to mule deer right now is habitat, habitat, habitat. Heavy does drop heavy fawns which have much higher survival rates.

To my knowledge there's only one study on predator management for deer in NA that was successful and it was wolf removal for BTs on VI. There have been dozens of others but the results are generally short-term, weak or negligible.

Abstract from some of the work.
http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1002/wmon.4?journalCode=wmon


Short term, weak, or negligible....

Yet positive and continuous for the length of the study period....

Still haven't seen any mention of predator densities pre and post reduction application....

If the desire is to influence maximum deer recruitment, of course habitat is a limiting factor.
Habitat management alone will not ensure success if predation is high.
Neither will habitat and predator control combined effect a long term population increase if weather turns for the worse.


I've enjoyed a few conversations recently with a couple of "old timer" biologists that used to run the show.
These guys are shaking their head at the minutiae required to make a determination.
It's really not that complicated.

[LBM]

If you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

You asked If I reported them, which I did not, does not mean they were not reported, no need to tell them what they all ready no.

[LBM]

youre kind of making shit up, you don't know it will take 3 or 4 days for a co to follow up with a RAPP call. I've heard of and seen first hand co's respond instantly to a call. For you to decide it's not worth it to call them, to me, is just irresponsible.
I have seen them respond immediately as well, and have seen them never even go to check out the animal. No need to make any thing up.

[LBM]

I would say I have a very good relation with Sergeant Umsonst (Lawrence).
He is also a hunter, and has told me personally that he has the utmost respect for my hunting ethics.
He does care what is going on, and had there been reports, he would have told me, even if they had not
investigated, but that if there were reports of poaching/illegal activity....he would have told me.....for sure.

The only report he had from last season, was someone shooting a mule buck that was mistaken for a white tail,
thus, the buck didn't meet the 4pt criteria....so illegal kill.
These hunters "self reported" themselves.
As for illegal activity, in regards to road closures, and people breaking that law.....that is nothing new!
I generally report 2 vehicles each year I am up there (and I will continue to do so!).

Do take the time to contact him.
Let him know what you are seeing.

Obviously, you know who I am (not sure if you are one of the truckers?), Alaskan Camper and on mountain bikes.
And yes that 77 year old guy still riding that mountain bike is my father.
So you know what watershed it is.

Just tell Umsonst that Andrew asked you to call in and report what you are seeing.
It's the right thing to do, and worth the effort of a phone call.

Again the COs know, if Lawrence knows and chooses not to tell you that's his choice, and if you believe its happened or not is you choice.
Ive seen and no others that have and reported enough over the years and see whats done to have my opinion as well.

[bearvalley]

Short term, weak, or negligible....

Yet positive and continuous for the length of the study period....

Still haven't seen any mention of predator densities pre and post reduction application....

If the desire is to influence maximum deer recruitment, of course habitat is a limiting factor.
Habitat management alone will not ensure success if predation is high.
Neither will habitat and predator control combined effect a long term population increase if weather turns for the worse.


I've enjoyed a few conversations recently with a couple of "old timer" biologists that used to run the show.
These guys are shaking their head at the minutiae required to make a determination.
It's really not that complicated.
Agreed
Theres a lot of this province where wildlife is in decline and habitat loss can not be blamed for being the main cause.
Lets take a look at what went on back when the "old timer" biologists used to back predator programs that were not just short term and weak.
What were the results?
We can have all the suitable habitat we want but it won't support any more wildlife if the wildlife is all converted to wolf and bear turds before it can be utilized.

[horshur]

sorry but much of the west states data and studies are a real stretch to apply here..they really are different geoclimatic zones only representing small percentage of BC.

[GoatGuy]

Short term, weak, or negligible....

Yet positive and continuous for the length of the study period....

Still haven't seen any mention of predator densities pre and post reduction application....

If the desire is to influence maximum deer recruitment, of course habitat is a limiting factor.
Habitat management alone will not ensure success if predation is high.
Neither will habitat and predator control combined effect a long term population increase if weather turns for the worse.


I've enjoyed a few conversations recently with a couple of "old timer" biologists that used to run the show.
These guys are shaking their head at the minutiae required to make a determination.
It's really not that complicated.

Best to read the whole paper and all the other papers on the topic.

[GoatGuy]

Agreed
Theres a lot of this province where wildlife is in decline and habitat loss can not be blamed for being the main cause.
Lets take a look at what went on back when the "old timer" biologists used to back predator programs that were not just short term and weak.
What were the results?
We can have all the suitable habitat we want but it won't support any more wildlife if the wildlife is all converted to wolf and bear turds before it can be utilized.

Elk/moose/caribou results are much different.

[Fisher-Dude]

Than maybe we can get rid of the 6pt rule, back down to 3pt or better.
The 6pt rule didn't make a huge difference.
Elk are still declining.
And the is the real concern, and nothing is happening.
And, what I suspect what will happen, is a shut down or limited opportunities in the future if the Ministries past is any
indication of the future????

You and I are indeed on the same page.

We need to make more elk, and changing or eliminating hunting seasons has proven in the past not to make more elk.

I used to hunt long 3 point bull seasons. There were loads of elk, and more hunters than there are today. We would get bugled out of bed some nights by 3 or 4 bulls screaming at each other just outside of camp! We did this for close to 50 years in the area my family hunted.

Then wolves started to wake us in the night. And we ran into all kinds of grizzly bears. And they logged the ridge where we hunted the rutting bulls in the thick spruce and balsam jungles.

Now there are no bugles to be heard there. No elk to be seen, for that matter. Very few hunters bother to hunt that area now. I've never seen an elk in the cutblock, but when it was timbered, we chased them every year there.

The season is far more restrictive now. Yet we have fewer elk, even no elk.

Hunters are quick to blame themselves, or other hunters, and call for even further restrictions. But restrictions have proven to be the wrong course of action. We need to learn from that, and do something different.

[boxhitch]

We can have all the suitable habitat we want but it won't support any more wildlife if the wildlife is all converted to wolf and bear turds before it can be exploitedfixed it for ya.
Predators are part of the natural cycle too.

[boxhitch]

Habitat alone won't do it, it has to be safe habitat, safe from development, from competition for food, safe from preds............

[Fisher-Dude]

Habitat alone won't do it, it has to be safe habitat, safe from development, from competition for food, safe from preds............

Yup. A cutblock full of grass or alder won't help ungulates much. A burn full of groceries with escape terrain and some thermal cover will.

[bearvalley]

boxhitch, I don't really need your help fixing much of anything, I wrote it the way I meant it.
i completely agree that habitat correction is the long term fix....predator management is the quick one.

[boxhitch]

No Problem. As always glad to help out.

[Bugle M In]

boxhitch, I don't really need your help fixing much of anything, I wrote it the way I meant it.
i completely agree that habitat correction is the long term fix....predator management is the quick one.

No matter how we slice it......
They both have to happen/start NOW;-)

[horshur]

nothing is static in nature so there will never be a long term fix. 2nd law of thermodynamics.

[findlyflats]

I was asked to go take pictures of 5 elk remains in 2013, the elk where shot by suspected first nation at night and most all meat was taken.
Because it is first nation and all the meat was used, it appears to be ok in the eyes of the public, but the herd was likely about 8 elk strong and i ask you
Is taking 1 bull 3 cows and 1 calf a sustainable way of managing a herd.
This is a similar situation in the finlay creek area with regard to elk and moose.
3 Years ago we met a native who had come from up a mountain where very few moose are, he said he took a moose for meat, we went and looked at the gut pile and they left the moose head in the middle of the road for all to see. it was a cow.
Again i ask , with so few moose how can taking cows help the population.
As for the COs saying FN food hunting is a problem, that would not be politically correct.

[rocksteady]

SO gentleman, a common thread seems to be a lack of fire to create habitat...

How many of you and your clubs have lobbied for funding to do habitat burns?

Called the Dustrict Manager of FLNRO?
Called the habitat biologists?

No calls= nothing happens.. They can not read your minds

[rocksteady]

Get off your duffs, put pressure on the managers to do more habitat burns. I am all in to light shit up, but if the district is not funding it.. it's a no go

[rocksteady]

We burned a lot of country in the Cranbrook area this year... Lakit ridge, Rabbit Mountain, Raymond creek, Donald Creek, Estella mine and Wolf Creek...

if if you ain't gonna push for it there is only so much I can do in my internal role..

[Bugle M In]

We have to get "Christy" to get all the hunting license's, species tags and leh tag revenue, and have 100% go back
into the "Wildlife Habitat Rehabilitation Program"
There is an election coming.
Maybe 100,000 email/letter to her office would have an impact.

[Fisher-Dude]

SO gentleman, a common thread seems to be a lack of fire to create habitat...

How many of you and your clubs have lobbied for funding to do habitat burns?

Called the Dustrict Manager of FLNRO?
Called the habitat biologists?

No calls= nothing happens.. They can not read your minds


Bingo! Many of the loudest belly-achers on these threads don't belong to clubs, don't show up for public meetings, don't show up at rehab projects, and don't bother to connect with their MLAs. Thus, their default is "CLOSE THE SEASON!"

[rocksteady]

I love to light shit on fire for the right reason... Help me out by pressuring the managers to make it happen. In 2014 I was blowing off25 thousand has a day.. 2011 in Alberta, 15k a day

fire is natural and necessary to keep the balance in ecosystems...

i cant ant do it alone without public (HBC ) support

[Ourea]

I love to light shit on fire for the right reason... Help me out by pressuring the managers to make it happen. In 2014 I was blowing off25 thousand has a day.. 2011 in Alberta, 15k a day

fire is natural and necessary to keep the balance in ecosystems...

i cant ant do it alone without public (HBC ) support

Rock, Bio's are acutely aware of what needs to be done.
If they had funding and had gov and industry support .....sh*t would happen.

Without a sustainable funding model, to pay for it, all the pressure in the world will have little impact.
There is no budget....period.
"We" are just one of hundreds of groups with a noble cause that wants gov to pay for and support endless initiatives. Get in line with the rest of them........

Or, a sustainable funding model is created that puts money back into doing for wildlife what wildlife and gov can't. Bring money to the table and fund projects with minimal gov assistance ......sh*t will happen then, and only then.
That concept is in play.



$$$$ is the answer.

[rocksteady]

$$$$ and the will to get it done...

i got the will, somebody has to pressure the managers to find the $

[rocksteady]

We got the $ to do 4 high elevation habitat burns this year... Hctf and fwcp... got our foot in the door

[GoatGuy]

SO gentleman, a common thread seems to be a lack of fire to create habitat...

How many of you and your clubs have lobbied for funding to do habitat burns?

Called the Dustrict Manager of FLNRO?
Called the habitat biologists?

No calls= nothing happens.. They can not read your minds
On it, going a bit higher up looking for bigger dollars.

can't keep piecemealing and one offing.

[findlyflats]

I don't under stand how habitat and predators could decimate the elk and moose population in the findlay creek area in just 10 years.
I could see man doing it but not nature, not in such a short time span.
As for habitat, the second growth forests created from clear cutts are very bad for habitat and the canal flats burn was good for the elk short term, but now the trees have come in way to thick and it is not good habitat..

[GoatGuy]

I don't under stand how habitat and predators could decimate the elk and moose population in the findlay creek area in just 10 years.
I could see man doing it but not nature, not in such a short time span.
As for habitat, the second growth forests created from clear cutts are very bad for habitat and the canal flats burn was good for the elk short term, but now the trees have come in way to thick and it is not good habitat..

Pretty simple. No calves, and high cow mortality means a rapidly declining population.

Typically hunters don't pay attention to how many calves are left by fall or by the following spring. Seems a lot of hunters have missed that the elk around the Flats aren't migrating up the Findlay or Dutch - they spend their lives close to people to avoid predation risk.

Happened to mule deer too. Hasn't been a cow/calf LEH for moose or for mule deer for decades and the pops are declining.

The changes on the landscape - wolves, highway traffic/mortality and habitat loss due to fire suppression. Add it all up and you have ungulate populations that are going down.

Folks in the EK haven't seen the bottom yet - it's still coming.

[BC Cruiser]

I would think all the exclusion fencing partially funded by the prov has changed the game also. I'm not sure if it's significant enough.

[LBM]

Pretty simple. No calves, and high cow mortality means a rapidly declining population.

Typically hunters don't pay attention to how many calves are left by fall or by the following spring. Seems a lot of hunters have missed that the elk around the Flats aren't migrating up the Findlay or Dutch - they spend their lives close to people to avoid predation risk.

Happened to mule deer too. Hasn't been a cow/calf LEH for moose or for mule deer for decades and the pops are declining.

The changes on the landscape - wolves, highway traffic/mortality and habitat loss due to fire suppression. Add it all up and you have ungulate populations that are going down.

Folks in the EK haven't seen the bottom yet - it's still coming.

Cow /calf moose are shot in the EK many don't have to have a season, heck they were shooting them this spring/summer, and
yes for those that are gona ask the COs know about it. Deer are shot out of season as well.

[findlyflats]

FN hunting is ok by Crusty Clark, its tradition, what she does not know is if you shoot all the does calfs and bulls the elk will go the way of the buffalo.

[findlyflats]

Cow /calf moose are shot in the EK many don't have to have a season, heck they were shooting them this spring/summer, and
yes for those that are gona ask the COs know about it. Deer are shot out of season as well.




"Typically hunters don't pay attention to how many calves are left by fall or by the following spring. Seems a lot of hunters have missed that the elk around the Flats aren't migrating up the Findlay or Dutch - they spend their lives close to people to avoid predation risk."

I think you are wrong here, , they dont go live in canal flats or invermere so they can be closer to humans,
the elk from the high area come down and are shot by Crustys hunters.

[Fisher-Dude]

FN hunting is ok by Crusty Clark, its tradition, what she does not know is if you shoot all the does calfs and bulls the elk will go the way of the buffalo.

Actually, the Canadian Constitution guarantees that Christy Clark can't stop it even if she tried.

Ask your friend Trudeau about that.

[Xenomorph]

Actually, the Canadian Constitution guarantees that Christy Clark can't stop it even if she tried.

Ask your friend Trudeau about that.


I'm curious what will happen if they shoot them out of existence. Once reintroduced, couldn't we make an argument as pro-management for all. Unless otherwise band specific places and financial resources are utilized to reintroduce them.

I know, can-o-worms talk here, eventually we'll head over that way, once it's financially burdening people enough to care.

[elch jager]

I keep ruminating on the 6pt season and the statement that the cows are still 90% pregnant... do we know this to be true? I'd like to read that study. From what I have seen, the 6pt gets taken in the first 3 days of the season by someone who has scouted the area and knows exactly where their animal is.... Does this happen well into or after the rut? How many cows have been impregnated? Once the herd bull is shot, do the cows just accept the next bull at the dance? or do they cross their legs and refuse to be serviced? does an inexperienced bull have an adequate success rate with the ladies? I wonder if there are fewer calves dropping because of a 6pt season? Maybe we should manage to a 'slot size' which has proven to be a valid technique with fish? It is pretty obvious that habitat is a primary issue. Logic says that if the calves are eaten they won't be growing into mature animals either.

So we need to curtail the logging, burn some strategic areas, kill off some wolves and bears and perhaps take the crosshairs off the the herd bull. I know the GOS's will moan at the loss of the trophy antlers but suspect (just a hypothesis.. no supporting evidence on this) we could harvest more spikes and under 6pts while we let the big studs work with the ladies....??

[Fisher-Dude]

I keep ruminating on the 6pt season and the statement that the cows are still 90% pregnant... do we know this to be true? I'd like to read that study. From what I have seen, the 6pt gets taken in the first 3 days of the season by someone who has scouted the area and knows exactly where their animal is.... Does this happen well into or after the rut? How many cows have been impregnated? Once the herd bull is shot, do the cows just accept the next bull at the dance? or do they cross their legs and refuse to be serviced? does an inexperienced bull have an adequate success rate with the ladies? I wonder if there are fewer calves dropping because of a 6pt season? Maybe we should manage to a 'slot size' which has proven to be a valid technique with fish? It is pretty obvious that habitat is a primary issue. Logic says that if the calves are eaten they won't be growing into mature animals either.

So we need to curtail the logging, burn some strategic areas, kill off some wolves and bears and perhaps take the crosshairs off the the herd bull. I know the GOS's will moan at the loss of the trophy antlers but suspect (just a hypothesis.. no supporting evidence on this) we could harvest more spikes and under 6pts while we let the big studs work with the ladies....??



Abstract
Mule deer (Odocoileus hemionus) and elk (Cervus elaphus nelsoni) in Colorado showed a decline in post-harvest young:female ratios during 1975-1995. One hypothesized cause of this decline in productivity is a decline in male:female ratios during the breeding period. We examined Colorado Division of Wildlife (CDOW) deer and elk population composition data obtained from helicopter surveys to see whether sex ratios explained variation in young:female ratios. Data for both deer and elk supported a response of young:100 females ratios to the male:100 females ratios during the previous year. The observed ratios were about 0.25 fawns:100 does per 1 buck:100 does for deer (95% CI ± 0.14) and 0.28 calves:100 cows per 1 bull:100 cows for elk (95% CI ± 0.12). However, these effects were not adequate to explain the decline in fawn:doe (1.14 fawns:100 does per year) and calf:cow ratios (0.68 calves:100 cows per year) observed during 1975-1995. Differences in the sex ratio: productivity relationship observed between populations suggest that only some areas might show an increase in young:female ratios in response to an increase in male:female ratios, and then only a small increase in young:females was predicted. We did not detect a threshold of male:female ratios for either species that precipitated a drastic decline in productivity. Based on commonly employed population composition surveys, we conclude that increasing post-season sex ratios will have little if any impact on subsequent population productivity.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272585234_Effect_of_Adult_Sex_Ratio_on_Mule_Deer_a nd_Elk_Productivity_in_Colorado


A bit of Googling on your part will find many more. It has been studied extensively.

[Rob Chipman]

"I'm curious what will happen if they shoot them out of existence. Once reintroduced, couldn't we make an argument as pro-management for all."

I think, at that point, the FNs can sue the government and require them to provide the wildlife, and I further the Supreme Court would back them on that.

Which would mean that the government would be required to raise and spend tax dollars on the project to satisfy the needs of the FNs, but certainly not of any hunters.

We could make any sort of argument we wanted at that point, but unless we convince someone to change how we run the operation it wouldn't make a difference.

I say this because I kind of remember reading somewhere (and sorry, I can't remember where) that the government has a responsibility to maintain the resource for the FNs needs. The resource may vanish, but the government still has the responsibility.

If I'm right you'd think the government would exercise some foresight....wait, wtf was I thinking! :-)

It is becoming increasingly clear, whether we talk about moose, elk, mule deer, mountain caribou, whatever, that there are several issues that need to be addressed: habitat (a more complex subject than it initially appears), predation, FN hunting, industrial activity related mortality, urbanization related, traffic, resident hunting, solid data and management knowledge, an agreed upon goal or target, and, of course, the money.

[findlyflats]

I keep ruminating on the 6pt season and the statement that the cows are still 90% pregnant... do we know this to be true? I'd like to read that study. From what I have seen, the 6pt gets taken in the first 3 days of the season by someone who has scouted the area and knows exactly where their animal is.... Does this happen well into or after the rut? How many cows have been impregnated? Once the herd bull is shot, do the cows just accept the next bull at the dance? or do they cross their legs and refuse to be serviced? does an inexperienced bull have an adequate success rate with the ladies? I wonder if there are fewer calves dropping because of a 6pt season? Maybe we should manage to a 'slot size' which has proven to be a valid technique with fish? It is pretty obvious that habitat is a primary issue. Logic says that if the calves are eaten they won't be growing into mature animals either.

So we need to curtail the logging, burn some strategic areas, kill off some wolves and bears and perhaps take the crosshairs off the the herd bull. I know the GOS's will moan at the loss of the trophy antlers but suspect (just a hypothesis.. no supporting evidence on this) we could harvest more spikes and under 6pts while we let the big studs work with the ladies....??

you are missing the Native hunts as a problem, with that said. i do totally agree what you say about the 6 point season during the rut. maybe a 3 to 5 point season in sept then a 3 week 6 point and up season in oct.
The high mountain herds need to be left alone during the off season.

[GoatGuy]

Cow /calf moose are shot in the EK many don't have to have a season, heck they were shooting them this spring/summer, and
yes for those that are gona ask the COs know about it. Deer are shot out of season as well.

Maybe hunting year round out of helicopters in provincial parks, access management areas areas as well where recruitment rates are low? Same with WK where there's no truck access and very few calves making it through the winter?

Get real.

[GoatGuy]

you are missing the Native hunts as a problem, with that said. i do totally agree what you say about the 6 point season during the rut. maybe a 3 to 5 point season in sept then a 3 week 6 point and up season in oct.
The high mountain herds need to be left alone during the off season.
You wont change anything until you deal with habitat and predation.

No calves means no adults.

I don't buy the FN hunt theory. The issue is ek and wk wide in areas where you won't get access unless you hike or have horses. It is not isolated to Fir mountain.

[LBM]

Maybe hunting year round out of helicopters in provincial parks, access management areas areas as well where recruitment rates are low? Same with WK where there's no truck access and very few calves making it through the winter?

Get real.
Not sure what your trying to say here.

[LBM]

You wont change anything until you deal with habitat and predation.

No calves means no adults.

I don't buy the FN hunt theory. The issue is ek and wk wide in areas where you won't get access unless you hike or have horses. It is not isolated to Fir mountain.

Its not just FN that do it, and it is not isolated to fir mountain , and it is not the only part of the problem, but humans are the no 1 predator.

[hunter1947]

You wont change anything until you deal with habitat and predation.

No calves means no adults.

I don't buy the FN hunt theory. The issue is ek and wk wide in areas where you won't get access unless you hike or have horses. It is not isolated to Fir mountain.

Smack on X2..

[GoatGuy]

Not sure what your trying to say here.

The population decline for elk, and moose is region wide, not isolated to a few areas with roads. In fact most of the elk are actually living right near people nowadays. In the WK moose have dropped right off and productivity is extremely low in very remote areas.

First Nations, unregulated harvest, and poaching are not the issue.

There are no calves - that is the problem and unless all these 'unregulated' harvesters are shooting calves only the theory you are putting forward is completely out to lunch.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

You nailed it GG.
Calf survival is key to increasing populations. There are few areas where unregulated hunting is a factor in cow bull ratios but is definitely not province wide.

[GoatGuy]

Its not just FN that do it, and it is not isolated to fir mountain , and it is not the only part of the problem, but humans are the no 1 predator.


Here is your hypothesis:

Hunters, 'the no.1 predator' are causing the population decline, at least in part. If that were the case we would have seen population declines in easily accessible areas. Instead we are seeing it region wide including areas with no access. In fact your higher density elk populations are now living RIGHT BESIDE PEOPLE to avoid predation risk. Most of the backcountry is seeing declines - areas where First Nations and unregulated hunters are not likely to hunt.

We are also seeing extremely low recruitment rates. I suppose you could change your hypothesis and say hunters, the no.1 predator, are killing ONLY moose/elk calves. Maybe that could be true, but the chances of that is extremely low. Pretty much unbelievable.

Of the collared elk we had, unregulated hunting was not a significant factor - and it should have been if it was such a problem as you suggest.

Of the collared mule deer does we have had cougars, wolves, and cars kill them. Hunting killed 1 doe. The majority of mule deer doe mortality is attributed directly to predation, of the 4 legged variety.

Declining moose and elk populations is a region wide phenomenon in the EK, WK, also in Washington, Idaho, Montana. Pregnancy rate for cows is going down, cow mortality is going up, and calf mortality is going up as well. You have cows that are being chased, aborting pregnancies, being eaten, throwing lighter calves which are also being eaten. The number 1 predator has not done all of that, predators have, principally wolves. There are decades of data behind that. And they are also managing wolves in Idaho and Montana due to elk population declines.

Getting tired of ppl complaining about FN harvest - there are areas where FN harvest is an issue, but in your neck of the woods I know for a fact FN have cut back and are not allowing other bands in to hunt where they traditionally did because of the concern around elk. I also know local band members who hunt 6 pts in the 6 pts season. If you had 30 calves per 100 cows instead of the 15 calves per 100 cows you currently have you wouldn't even be dreaming up these wild theories.

Worth repeating: NO CALVES= NO ADULTS = NO ELK/MOOSE.

[Xenomorph]

Here is your hypothesis:

Hunters, 'the no.1 predator' are causing the population decline, at least in part. If that were the case we would have seen population declines in easily accessible areas. Instead we are seeing it region wide including areas with no access. In fact your higher density elk populations are now living RIGHT BESIDE PEOPLE to avoid predation risk. Most of the backcountry is seeing declines - areas where First Nations and unregulated hunters are not likely to hunt.

We are also seeing extremely low recruitment rates. I suppose you could change your hypothesis and say hunters, the no.1 predator, are killing ONLY moose/elk calves. Maybe that could be true, but the chances of that is extremely low. Pretty much unbelievable.

Of the collared elk we had, unregulated hunting was not a significant factor - and it should have been if it was such a problem as you suggest.

Of the collared mule deer does we have had cougars, wolves, and cars kill them. Hunting killed 1 doe. The majority of mule deer doe mortality is attributed directly to predation, of the 4 legged variety.

Declining moose and elk populations is a region wide phenomenon in the EK, WK, also in Washington, Idaho, Montana. Pregnancy rate for cows is going down, cow mortality is going up, and calf mortality is going up as well. You have cows that are being chased, aborting pregnancies, being eaten, throwing lighter calves which are also being eaten. The number 1 predator has not done all of that, predators have, principally wolves. There are decades of data behind that. And they are also managing wolves in Idaho and Montana due to elk population declines.

Getting tired of ppl complaining about FN harvest - there are areas where FN harvest is an issue, but in your neck of the woods I know for a fact FN have cut back and are not allowing other bands in to hunt where they traditionally did because of the concern around elk. I also know local band members who hunt 6 pts in the 6 pts season. If you had 30 calves per 100 cows instead of the 15 calves per 100 cows you currently have you wouldn't even be dreaming up these wild theories.

Worth repeating: NO CALVES= NO ADULTS = NO ELK/MOOSE.


Message was loud and clear from last year GG, on my way to harvest the second Black bear of the season, then I'll focus on cats and dogs. If only 10% of us would head out and hunt them as hard as we do for ungulates I don't think we'd be having the same conversation 2-3 years from now.

[bearvalley]

The population decline for elk, and moose is region wide, not isolated to a few areas with roads. In fact most of the elk are actually living right near people nowadays. In the WK moose have dropped right off and productivity is extremely low in very remote areas.

First Nations, unregulated harvest, and poaching are not the issue.

There are no calves - that is the problem and unless all these 'unregulated' harvesters are shooting calves only the theory you are putting forward is completely out to lunch.
Thanks Jesse.
That is the message that needs to be put out.

[Walking Buffalo]

The message coming out of the research down south with regards to mule deer right now is habitat, habitat, habitat. Heavy does drop heavy fawns which have much higher survival rates.

To my knowledge there's only one study on predator management for deer in NA that was successful and it was wolf removal for BTs on VI. There have been dozens of others but the results are generally short-term, weak or negligible.

Abstract from some of the work.
http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1002/wmon.4?journalCode=wmon


Here is your hypothesis:

Hunters, 'the no.1 predator' are causing the population decline, at least in part. If that were the case we would have seen population declines in easily accessible areas. Instead we are seeing it region wide including areas with no access. In fact your higher density elk populations are now living RIGHT BESIDE PEOPLE to avoid predation risk. Most of the backcountry is seeing declines - areas where First Nations and unregulated hunters are not likely to hunt.

We are also seeing extremely low recruitment rates. I suppose you could change your hypothesis and say hunters, the no.1 predator, are killing ONLY moose/elk calves. Maybe that could be true, but the chances of that is extremely low. Pretty much unbelievable.

Of the collared elk we had, unregulated hunting was not a significant factor - and it should have been if it was such a problem as you suggest.

Of the collared mule deer does we have had cougars, wolves, and cars kill them. Hunting killed 1 doe. The majority of mule deer doe mortality is attributed directly to predation, of the 4 legged variety.

Declining moose and elk populations is a region wide phenomenon in the EK, WK, also in Washington, Idaho, Montana. Pregnancy rate for cows is going down, cow mortality is going up, and calf mortality is going up as well. You have cows that are being chased, aborting pregnancies, being eaten, throwing lighter calves which are also being eaten. The number 1 predator has not done all of that, predators have, principally wolves. There are decades of data behind that. And they are also managing wolves in Idaho and Montana due to elk population declines.

Getting tired of ppl complaining about FN harvest - there are areas where FN harvest is an issue, but in your neck of the woods I know for a fact FN have cut back and are not allowing other bands in to hunt where they traditionally did because of the concern around elk. I also know local band members who hunt 6 pts in the 6 pts season. If you had 30 calves per 100 cows instead of the 15 calves per 100 cows you currently have you wouldn't even be dreaming up these wild theories.

Worth repeating: NO CALVES= NO ADULTS = NO ELK/MOOSE.


I'm So confused now.

Isn't it a Habitat, Habitat, Habitat issue?

;)

[GoatGuy]

I'm So confused now.

Isn't it a Habitat, Habitat, Habitat issue?

;)

Depends on the species and area. EK it's both, without a doubt. Years away from getting the habitat back into shape though, unless they get a rip roaring fire through that place which could very well happen.

[findlyflats]

"Most of the backcountry is seeing declines - areas where First Nations and unregulated hunters are not likely to hunt".

Are not these areas high in the back country where you are right , man cannot get to them.
the problem is when the november snows push them to the winter range , they are like shooting ducks in a pond.

"If you had 30 calves per 100 cows instead of the 15 calves per 100 cows you currently have you wouldn't even be dreaming up these wild theories."

100 cows plus 15 calfs = 115 cows the in becember when they are all down in the valley bottoms.
shoot 20 cows in december in the winter range and you now have 95 cows.
shoot 3 pregnant cows in dec and you kill 3 cows and 3 to 6 calfs to be.

simple solution, get rid of the winter range hunts for any elk.

:" NO CALVES= NO ADULTS = NO ELK/MOOSE".

year 1 --- 7 elk, = 1 bull and 6 cows.
year 2 --- 1 bull 6 calfs and 6 cows - 2 wolf kills = 11 elk
year 3 --- 1- 6 point 2 spikes 8 cows 8 calfs - 3 wolf kills = 16 elk
year 4 --- 1 - 6 point etc etc etc
my math is as bad as my spelling/
year 33 11 elk poached.
year 35 http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa208/atochaspictures/Eral%20640x530.jpg

[GoatGuy]

"Most of the backcountry is seeing declines - areas where First Nations and unregulated hunters are not likely to hunt".

Are not these areas high in the back country where you are right , man cannot get to them.
the problem is when the november snows push them to the winter range , they are like shooting ducks in a pond.

"If you had 30 calves per 100 cows instead of the 15 calves per 100 cows you currently have you wouldn't even be dreaming up these wild theories."

100 cows plus 15 calfs = 115 cows the in becember when they are all down in the valley bottoms.
shoot 20 cows in december in the winter range and you now have 95 cows.
shoot 3 pregnant cows in dec and you kill 3 cows and 3 to 6 calfs to be.

simple solution, get rid of the winter range hunts for any elk.

:" NO CALVES= NO ADULTS = NO ELK/MOOSE".

year 1 --- 7 elk, = 1 bull and 6 cows.
year 2 --- 1 bull 6 calfs and 6 cows - 2 wolf kills = 11 elk
year 3 --- 1- 6 point 2 spikes 8 cows 8 calfs - 3 wolf kills = 16 elk
year 4 --- 1 - 6 point etc etc etc
my math is as bad as my spelling/
year 33 11 elk poached.
year 35 http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa208/atochaspictures/Eral%20640x530.jpg

Are people shooting them in November in Banff and Jasper as well lol?

If you have 15 calves:100 cows your population is in decline.

This is happening in National Parks and areas where there is no hunting.

It's happening in areas where FN do not hunt.

It is happening in areas where you need a boat to access wildlife 12 months/year.

Many of your local elk are not migrating anymore either - they are sticking close to people all year long.

You can ban hunting if you want, you'll end up with the same outcome.

[findlyflats]

goat guy , this thread is called
(http://bc.ctvnews.ca/first-nations-lose-legal-fight-to-hunt-endangered-elk-1.575182)Findlay Creek Outfitters

It is about the elk and moose decline of the findlay creek watershead and its affects on the outfitter that had to sell his buisness.
I have witnessed and heard stories about in season plus out of season hunting from natives and non natives from the ------- FN band.
With that said, this hunting practice was seen upon as legitimate food hunting, but the reality is , it had a serious affect on the animal populations.
Blame it on the wolfs and bears then shoot them all, then blame it on the enviroment , which is seriously affecting the future of the animals but not so much the present.
This news STORY is just about thouse who got caught ON VANCOUVER ISLAND AND it is not related to the findlay.
http://bc.ctvnews.ca/first-nations-lose-legal-fight-to-hunt-endangered-elk-1.575182 (http://bc.ctvnews.ca/first-nations-lose-legal-fight-to-hunt-endangered-elk-1.575182)

[findlyflats]

September 1, 2015
To All Shuswap Nation Chief, Council and Nation Members:
Re: Elk population in the East Kootenays
At a meeting of concerned parties it was determined that the Elk population in the
Findlay Creek and Skookumchuck area is in serious decline. The Elk herds will
need a minimum two years of restricted hunting to bring the population back to a
healthy number. Present at this meeting, there was representation from Ministry
of Forests, The Columbia Kootenay Conservation Officer and Bob Jam
ieson, a representative involved in the elk count for the East Kootenays.
Shuswap Band Chief and Council ask that all First Nation hunters follow the
regular Elk hunting season for a minimum of two years. It is important that all
concerned, native and non-native, abide by these regulations designed to
preserve the Elk populations for future generations.
We are requesting the Shuswap Communities, by consensus, agree to the rules
in place for the 2015 hunting season. Specifically in the Skookumchuck and
Findlay Creek hunting areas. The rules are as follows:
1.
Permit Only Hunting for all First Nations members wishing to hunt in the
East Kootenays, will be $ 30.00 (thirty) dollars.
For 1 Elk, or 1 moose, and a deer, either Whitetail or Mule deer. These
permits will be issued by the Shuswap Band Titles And Rights Department.
Please contact Rosalita Pascal
at (250) 341-3678
Monday –Friday, or submit written requests to RR#2 3A-
492 Arrow road, Invermere B.C. V0A1K2
. Electronic submissions can be made by request to
rpascal@shuswapband.net
2.
All hunters will be required to report to the Shuswap Band of their
intentions to hunt.
3.
All hunters not permitted; will have their animals removed and given to the
local First Nations for supporting community membership
.
4.
All proper documentation must be provided to local Conservation Officers
at their request.
RR 2 3A
-
492 Arrow. Rd Invermere, BC, V0A
-
1
K2 Ph: 250.341.3678 Fax: 250.341.3683
Email: info@shuswapband.net
5.
A notice of our guidelines along with the statement that: if we do not
regulate hunting; there will be no Elk left to hunt. This will be sent out to
all Bands.
6.
All Elk taken from the East Kootenays must be reported to the Shuswap
Band.
7.
There will be no hunting after December 1 for the 2015/2016 hunting
seasons.
The Shuswap Nation and Ktunaxa Nation are working together and in
cooperation with the Province of BC to maintain the Herds.
It is important that we all understand the urgency and immediately implement a
strategy to save the Elk populations in this region. This is a problem that we all
share and we need to work together on a plan to fix it.
We seek your support in developing a mutually agreed upon course of action so that we may stand united in our negotiations, with the Province of British Columbia and/or other levels of government on this matter.
Shuswap Band
Chief and Council
Invermere B.C.
____________________________
Chief Barbara Cote
_______________________
______
Councillor Tim Eugene
_____________________________
Councillor Rosalita Pasca

[Rob Chipman]

Goatguy:

Questions for you: why are pregnancy rates going down and why are does/cows throwing lighter fawns/calves? I get how predators simply kill an animal, but are male/female ratios off, or is it just more predator stress in general that causes these two things or what?

[GoatGuy]

Goatguy:

Questions for you: why are pregnancy rates going down and why are does/cows throwing lighter fawns/calves? I get how predators simply kill an animal, but are male/female ratios off, or is it just more predator stress in general that causes these two things or what?
Trendy term is landscape of fear.

Getting chased and stressed by predators, particularly wolves it seems. Ranchers are seeing it as well where cattle are exposed to wolves. Pregnancy rate, weining weight, calf survival all go down.

[LBM]

Here is your hypothesis:

Hunters, 'the no.1 predator' are causing the population decline, at least in part. If that were the case we would have seen population declines in easily accessible areas. Instead we are seeing it region wide including areas with no access. In fact your higher density elk populations are now living RIGHT BESIDE PEOPLE to avoid predation risk. Most of the backcountry is seeing declines - areas where First Nations and unregulated hunters are not likely to hunt.

We are also seeing extremely low recruitment rates. I suppose you could change your hypothesis and say hunters, the no.1 predator, are killing ONLY moose/elk calves. Maybe that could be true, but the chances of that is extremely low. Pretty much unbelievable.

Of the collared elk we had, unregulated hunting was not a significant factor - and it should have been if it was such a problem as you suggest.

Of the collared mule deer does we have had cougars, wolves, and cars kill them. Hunting killed 1 doe. The majority of mule deer doe mortality is attributed directly to predation, of the 4 legged variety.

Declining moose and elk populations is a region wide phenomenon in the EK, WK, also in Washington, Idaho, Montana. Pregnancy rate for cows is going down, cow mortality is going up, and calf mortality is going up as well. You have cows that are being chased, aborting pregnancies, being eaten, throwing lighter calves which are also being eaten. The number 1 predator has not done all of that, predators have, principally wolves. There are decades of data behind that. And they are also managing wolves in Idaho and Montana due to elk population declines.

Getting tired of ppl complaining about FN harvest - there are areas where FN harvest is an issue, but in your neck of the woods I know for a fact FN have cut back and are not allowing other bands in to hunt where they traditionally did because of the concern around elk. I also know local band members who hunt 6 pts in the 6 pts season. If you had 30 calves per 100 cows instead of the 15 calves per 100 cows you currently have you wouldn't even be dreaming up these wild theories.

Worth repeating: NO CALVES= NO ADULTS = NO ELK/MOOSE.

No that is your hypothesis not mine I didn't say that.
Cow and calf moose are being shot, as well as elk and deer.
Pretty hard for a moose bull calf to survive for very long with the spike /fork season as well.
I also no local band members that hunt out of the regular season, the one shot 3 6 points in one year and another shot
3 cow moose in 2 years. Dead cows = no calves = no adults = no moose

[LBM]

September 1, 2015
To All Shuswap Nation Chief, Council and Nation Members:
Re: Elk population in the East Kootenays
At a meeting of concerned parties it was determined that the Elk population in the
Findlay Creek and Skookumchuck area is in serious decline. The Elk herds will
need a minimum two years of restricted hunting to bring the population back to a
healthy number. Present at this meeting, there was representation from Ministry
of Forests, The Columbia Kootenay Conservation Officer and Bob Jam
ieson, a representative involved in the elk count for the East Kootenays.
Shuswap Band Chief and Council ask that all First Nation hunters follow the
regular Elk hunting season for a minimum of two years. It is important that all
concerned, native and non-native, abide by these regulations designed to
preserve the Elk populations for future generations.
We are requesting the Shuswap Communities, by consensus, agree to the rules
in place for the 2015 hunting season. Specifically in the Skookumchuck and
Findlay Creek hunting areas. The rules are as follows:
1.
Permit Only Hunting for all First Nations members wishing to hunt in the
East Kootenays, will be $ 30.00 (thirty) dollars.
For 1 Elk, or 1 moose, and a deer, either Whitetail or Mule deer. These
permits will be issued by the Shuswap Band Titles And Rights Department.
Please contact Rosalita Pascal
at (250) 341-3678
Monday –Friday, or submit written requests to RR#2 3A-
492 Arrow road, Invermere B.C. V0A1K2
. Electronic submissions can be made by request to
rpascal@shuswapband.net
2.
All hunters will be required to report to the Shuswap Band of their
intentions to hunt.
3.
All hunters not permitted; will have their animals removed and given to the
local First Nations for supporting community membership
.
4.
All proper documentation must be provided to local Conservation Officers
at their request.
RR 2 3A
-
492 Arrow. Rd Invermere, BC, V0A
-
1
K2 Ph: 250.341.3678 Fax: 250.341.3683
Email: info@shuswapband.net
5.
A notice of our guidelines along with the statement that: if we do not
regulate hunting; there will be no Elk left to hunt. This will be sent out to
all Bands.
6.
All Elk taken from the East Kootenays must be reported to the Shuswap
Band.
7.
There will be no hunting after December 1 for the 2015/2016 hunting
seasons.
The Shuswap Nation and Ktunaxa Nation are working together and in
cooperation with the Province of BC to maintain the Herds.
It is important that we all understand the urgency and immediately implement a
strategy to save the Elk populations in this region. This is a problem that we all
share and we need to work together on a plan to fix it.
We seek your support in developing a mutually agreed upon course of action so that we may stand united in our negotiations, with the Province of British Columbia and/or other levels of government on this matter.
Shuswap Band
Chief and Council
Invermere B.C.
____________________________
Chief Barbara Cote
_______________________
______
Councillor Tim Eugene
_____________________________
Councillor Rosalita Pasca

That's a good start but only if they all follow it. Watched them fire well into the double digits of shots at a heard last year and this was well after Dec.
mind you wasn't in the findlay drainage. They did the same the year before in the same area and someone else walked through the area after and found
dead elk. If the didn't drop on the spot they were not looked for.

[bearvalley]

Trendy term is landscape of fear.

Getting chased and stressed by predators, particularly wolves it seems. Ranchers are seeing it as well where cattle are exposed to wolves. Pregnancy rate, weining weight, calf survival all go down.

Just to add a bit to what GG is trying to point out here, predator harassment is a huge issue when it comes to reproduction and calf growth. In beef cattle a 5% open or non bred rate with another 5% being bred late is standard on large range areas. When predators are targeting cattle those percentages can climb to 30% or greater.
On top of that calf weaning weights can drop by 20% or more.
That is on the calves that survive.
Wildlife is no different and in fact the issue can be even more harsh given the short window ungulates have for breeding to enable the females to calve in the optimum time for high calf survival.
A small group of wolves can do a massive amount of damage if they become target specific. I've seen wolves that have zeroed in on strictly beef calves. One pack of 5 (2adults and 3 pups) killed or maimed over 40 calves in a two month period, feeding once then moving on to another prey victim.
Take a look at the predator load we have in this province right now, apply the math on how much wildlife it takes to keep those same predators fed.
Its not real hard to see we have a problem other than habitat mismanagement.

[findlyflats]

Dead cows = no calves = no adults = no moose

Dead cows = no calves = no adults = no moose and no elk.

The buffalo, hunted to near extinction.
the dodo bird , hunted to extinction.
Sharks
white rino
the list goes on and on.
How hard is it to accept that the Findlay creek elk have been hunted by man to less then 10% of there numbers from 15 years ago.

[GoatGuy]

Dead cows = no calves = no adults = no moose and no elk.

The buffalo, hunted to near extinction.
the dodo bird , hunted to extinction.
Sharks
white rino
the list goes on and on.
How hard is it to accept that the Findlay creek elk have been hunted by man to less then 10% of there numbers from 15 years ago.


Pretty hard to believe for a number of reasons
1) This is happening all over the EK
2) This is happening in the WK where there is little to no access and FN are not hunting
3) This is happening in National Parks where there is no hunting
4) This is happening in Idaho and Montana where FN are restricted mostly to their own land. They have 40 years of collar data and what it shows is the elk are being eaten by wolves.
5) Most of your elk aren't migrating anymore. If they were worried about being shot they would be spending more time in the back country, but instead they are spending their time near people. Many of the backcountry drainages are void of life. The non-migratory component of elk has never been higher.
6) In the 80s hunters were shooting 500-700 elk a year between 420 and 426 including cows/calves - now you're shooting 160. I doubt FN are shooting the other 400-500/year

A few cows and calves being shot by FN is trivial in the big picture. Can guarantee you without a shadow of a doubt your elk are dying before their first birthday and that is because they are being eaten by 4 legged predators.

Here's a good newspaper article on ya ha tinda. Lots of published material on that herd.

http://www.thecragandcanyon.ca/2015/08/27/elk-population-on-ya-ha-tinda-remains-in-low-numbers

You will notice a few things in that report - a big one that is missing is FN 'winter harvest' is not one of the issues they flag.

[GoatGuy]

No that is your hypothesis not mine I didn't say that.
Cow and calf moose are being shot, as well as elk and deer.
Pretty hard for a moose bull calf to survive for very long with the spike /fork season as well.
I also no local band members that hunt out of the regular season, the one shot 3 6 points in one year and another shot
3 cow moose in 2 years. Dead cows = no calves = no adults = no moose

That is your hypothesis when a person follows your line of thinking.

Lol yes it must be the spike-fork season. Moose have been in decline in the EK since the late 80s, spike-fork season in effect for what 5 years? Used to shoot 800-900 moose/year in region 4, now you shoot 150 and the spike fork season is the problem. And your sex ratios are good but there are NO CALVES. And the spike-fork season is to blame? Would love to agree with you - challenge is what the science shows and what you are saying are diametrically opposed.

[Xenomorph]

For the sake of the argument people, why don't we try to get a couple wolves, a cougar and maybe tag our bears ...see if that makes a difference in say 3-5 years. I don't need to be convinced, I've seen more wolf, cougar and bear tracks then human or tire tracks where I've hunted ...and guess what, the animals aren't there anymore.

Not trying to dismiss anyone, I am sure from each perspective something like irregular FN harvest could present a tangent in a study like this, but let's face it, we all agree at the end of the day, we have a predator problem! Do we not?

[Walking Buffalo]

Pretty hard to believe for a number of reasons
1) This is happening all over the EK
2) This is happening in the WK where there is little to no access and FN are not hunting
3) This is happening in National Parks where there is no hunting
4) This is happening in Idaho and Montana where FN are restricted mostly to their own land. They have 40 years of collar data and what it shows is the elk are being eaten by wolves.
5) Most of your elk aren't migrating anymore. If they were worried about being shot they would be spending more time in the back country, but instead they are spending their time near people. Many of the backcountry drainages are void of life. The non-migratory component of elk has never been higher.
6) In the 80s hunters were shooting 500-700 elk a year between 420 and 426 including cows/calves - now you're shooting 160. I doubt FN are shooting the other 400-500/year

A few cows and calves being shot by FN is trivial in the big picture. Can guarantee you without a shadow of a doubt your elk are dying before their first birthday and that is because they are being eaten by 4 legged predators.

Here's a good newspaper article on ya ha tinda. Lots of published material on that herd.

http://www.thecragandcanyon.ca/2015/08/27/elk-population-on-ya-ha-tinda-remains-in-low-numbers

You will notice a few things in that report - a big one that is missing is FN 'winter harvest' is not one of the issues they flag.

Believe me GG, Many Albertans noticed that FN harvest was downplayed in the YaHa Tinda papers.

Publishing that type of assessment just does not help a biologist get new gigs.... ;)
Heck, biologists here have described FN harvest in research papers as "Natural Mortality". :lol:

Sure, when the YaHa herd numbered several thousands, FN harvest was not an issue.
But when the population dropped into the hundreds, FN harvest from those remaining cows, IMO, was and still is a factor limiting any recovery.


Note that the YaHa habitat restoration projects did nothing positive for the elk while predation remains high.
Those new burns turned into a boneyard. Perhaps even contributed to an increased rate of population decline....

YaHA is a great example of how quality "Habitat" is not a safeguard to maintaining populations when predation mortality rates are high.

[Fisher-Dude]

Sure, when the YaHa herd numbered several thousands, FN harvest was not an issue.
But when the population dropped into the hundreds, FN harvest from those remaining cows, IMO, was and still is a factor limiting any recovery.



Why did the population drop from thousands to several hundred?

It seems people are pointing at FN but even you say when the population was robust that FN had little impact.

Have you restored the habitat and done predator control, and the only reason herds don't rebound is FN? Really?

I think it's time we stopped looking for scapegoats (ie the "other guys") and worked to put more animals on the mountain. Fighting over the shrinking pie with other user groups isn't the answer.

[GoatGuy]

Believe me GG, Many Albertans noticed that FN harvest was downplayed in the YaHa Tinda papers.

Publishing that type of assessment just does not help a biologist get new gigs.... ;)
Heck, biologists here have described FN harvest in research papers as "Natural Mortality". :lol:

Sure, when the YaHa herd numbered several thousands, FN harvest was not an issue.
But when the population dropped into the hundreds, FN harvest from those remaining cows, IMO, was and still is a factor limiting any recovery.


Note that the YaHa habitat restoration projects did nothing positive for the elk while predation remains high.
Those new burns turned into a boneyard. Perhaps even contributed to an increased rate of population decline....

YaHA is a great example of how quality "Habitat" is not a safeguard to maintaining populations when predation mortality rates are high.

Think the collar data is the best thing to look at for this stuff.

[Rob Chipman]

GG:

Thanks for "landscape of fear" - I sorta thought that might be the case. Thx!

[Walking Buffalo]

Why did the population drop from thousands to several hundred?

It seems people are pointing at FN but even you say when the population was robust that FN had little impact.

Have you restored the habitat and done predator control, and the only reason herds don't rebound is FN? Really?

I think it's time we stopped looking for scapegoats (ie the "other guys") and worked to put more animals on the mountain. Fighting over the shrinking pie with other user groups isn't the answer.


This reads like your post about complete extirpation of all predators for research purposes....

Stop being so dramatic.

Comprehend what I wrote.

I did not state that FN harvest was "the only reason herds don't rebound"....

I wrote " FN harvest from those remaining cows, IMO, was and still is a factor limiting any recovery."

Ugh....

Enough of this. I am off to the Rez for a hunt, where there are more deer, elk and moose than in the whole Upper Red Deer drainage.... :)

[One Shot]

youre kind of making shit up, you don't know it will take 3 or 4 days for a co to follow up with a rapp call. I've heard of and seen first hand co's respond instantly to a call. For you to decide it's not worth it to call them, to me, is just irresponsible.

x2........

[LBM]

That is your hypothesis when a person follows your line of thinking.

Lol yes it must be the spike-fork season. Moose have been in decline in the EK since the late 80s, spike-fork season in effect for what 5 years? Used to shoot 800-900 moose/year in region 4, now you shoot 150 and the spike fork season is the problem. And your sex ratios are good but there are NO CALVES. And the spike-fork season is to blame? Would love to agree with you - challenge is what the science shows and what you are saying are diametrically opposed.

Again not at all what is being said but you can twist it around all you like as usual. To me a dead animal is a dead animal and it affects things. If there is spike/forks being shot then calves are making it through there first year just don't have a chance in there second.
For the death of animals there is lots of causes, legal hunting, not legal hunting, wolves, other human involvement but you only think its wolves. Because you don't see the other stuff so don't believe it or just don't care.
Lots of animals have been in decline in the EK for years, mule deer since the 80s as well. Its funny how only a few years ago decline in some animal populations in the EK was brought up by others on this site and all you and your group did was attack the people telling them the didn't no anything or didn't no how to hunt etc., now that your studys or science is showing that you jump on it. To bad its to late as usual for some don't like to listen to people that are actually out there. They are to concerned about the posability of losing a chance to kill something then conservation.

[GoatGuy]

Again not at all what is being said but you can twist it around all you like as usual. To me a dead animal is a dead animal and it affects things. If there is spike/forks being shot then calves are making it through there first year just don't have a chance in there second.
For the death of animals there is lots of causes, legal hunting, not legal hunting, wolves, other human involvement but you only think its wolves. Because you don't see the other stuff so don't believe it or just don't care.
Lots of animals have been in decline in the EK for years, mule deer since the 80s as well. Its funny how only a few years ago decline in some animal populations in the EK was brought up by others on this site and all you and your group did was attack the people telling them the didn't no anything or didn't no how to hunt etc., now that your studys or science is showing that you jump on it. To bad its to late as usual for some don't like to listen to people that are actually out there. They are to concerned about the posability of losing a chance to kill something then conservation.

The line of thinking you propose is easy to follow. The difference between science and beliefs are miles apart.

The claims about male only seasons effects on wildlife are just as invalid as they were years ago. The hunting seasons for elk/moose/mule deer are not driving populations. That's been proven all over North America, and here in BC on multiple occasions for moose, mule deer, and elk. Wildlife populations are all about adult female survival and the proportion of offspring that make it to their first birthday - that is what drives the population. When those start to go down wildlife starts to disappear. There hasn't been an antlerless season on mule deer in the EK since the late 90s IIRC; hasn't been one on moose since probably the early 90s (other than revelstoke); elk antlerless has been focused on homesteader elk, and the backcountry elk continue to disappear. Pretty sure the last season on caribou was in the 90s as well, and they continue to circle the drain......

Those elk/moose declines appear to be happening across western NA where wolves have been reintroduced or are increasing. That is happening in National Parks where there is no hunting. The deer/elk and even moose are moving into rural areas and urban areas, taking up 'life in the city'. That is not because they are worried about a hunter's bullet for a season that doesn't exist.

When you put your line of thinking about against all that, things stop making sense in short order.


Didn't think of this, but unfortunately the locals indicate your rub is more about the fact some of the folks living near Invermere have taken up life as a houndsman. Pretty petty.

[Bugle M In]

Think the collar data is the best thing to look at for this stuff.

They need to collar some Elk, some Moose, Mulies, and Whitetails.
They will also need to collar some B-Bear, G-Bear, Cougars and Wolves.
Maybe in an area where it is known to be calving/birthing grounds in a few sectors of the EK.
Than we can see what predators are the ones living in close proximity at that time of the year and
potentially causing the higher casualties.
I suspect it will be more than just wolves.
Bigger problem is....I think that would be a major undertaking to actually put into play.
But in the meantime, the ministry needs to step up to the plate, and remove some Preds.
Also, create some better habitat.
I would hate to see the ministry just say" we are studying the situation"
That would be the thing I fear the most right now.

[GoatGuy]

They need to collar some Elk, some Moose, Mulies, and Whitetails.
They will also need to collar some B-Bear, G-Bear, Cougars and Wolves.
Maybe in an area where it is known to be calving/birthing grounds in a few sectors of the EK.
Than we can see what predators are the ones living in close proximity at that time of the year and
potentially causing the higher casualties.
I suspect it will be more than just wolves.
Bigger problem is....I think that would be a major undertaking to actually put into play.
But in the meantime, the ministry needs to step up to the plate, and remove some Preds.
Also, create some better habitat.
I would hate to see the ministry just say" we are studying the situation"
That would be the thing I fear the most right now.

Agreed.

There are other sources of mortality, but management actions to reduce them are much more challenging. Wolf man. produces results, managing bears/coyotes/cougars is far more challenging and the results not as clear.

They had a pile of elk collared in the EK before and they have a bunch collared in the elk valley right now. The non-migratory component has never been higher. Calf recruitment is in the tank. Elk are sticking close to people to avoid predation risk - that is happening across most of western NA right now.

They are doing these studies in neighbouring jurisdictions. For elk/moose wolves are what are changing the landscape. For mule deer the story is far more about habitat.

Until BC gets a properly funded wildlife management program none of this will happen. Think we all need to get on that band wagon and start pressuring MLAs to dedicate some long-term dollars to wildlife in this province. We are one of the only places in North America that doesn't.

[GoatGuy]

HOt off the press:

https://www.bcfpb.ca/sites/default/files/reports/SR51-Follow-up-Wildlife-and-Cattle-Grazing-in-the-East-Kootenay.pdf

[LBM]

The line of thinking you propose is easy to follow. The difference between science and beliefs are miles apart.

The claims about male only seasons effects on wildlife are just as invalid as they were years ago. The hunting seasons for elk/moose/mule deer are not driving populations. That's been proven all over North America, and here in BC on multiple occasions for moose, mule deer, and elk. Wildlife populations are all about adult female survival and the proportion of offspring that make it to their first birthday - that is what drives the population. When those start to go down wildlife starts to disappear. There hasn't been an antlerless season on mule deer in the EK since the late 90s IIRC; hasn't been one on moose since probably the early 90s (other than revelstoke); elk antlerless has been focused on homesteader elk, and the backcountry elk continue to disappear. Pretty sure the last season on caribou was in the 90s as well, and they continue to circle the drain......

Those elk/moose declines appear to be happening across western NA where wolves have been reintroduced or are increasing. That is happening in National Parks where there is no hunting. The deer/elk and even moose are moving into rural areas and urban areas, taking up 'life in the city'. That is not because they are worried about a hunter's bullet for a season that doesn't exist.

When you put your line of thinking about against all that, things stop making sense in short order.


Didn't think of this, but unfortunately the locals indicate your rub is more about the fact some of the folks living near Invermere have taken up life as a houndsman. Pretty petty.

Again not talking about regular seasons, if you think that is the only time things are killed that is your choice. Habitat and humans directly or indirectly are the number 1 cause if you don't think that then again your choice or beliefs.
and again don't no what your talking about in your last sentence.

[findlyflats]

Goatguy
I am trying to understand you.
"Wildlife populations are all about adult female survival and the proportion of offspring that make it to their first birthday - that is what drives the population."
what drives the population
Lets say there where no bears and wolfs , the cows and calfs are shot by man in the winter and the 6 points and up are shot in the fall, that will not have a impact on the population.

[Rob Chipman]

GG:

Interesting link. Maybe I missed the point, but I saw this "The elk management objective to reduce the population wintering in the South Trench by 20 to 40 percent over 3 to 5 years wasmet". I get that there are competing interests, but am I reading that correctly? FNLR wanted fewer elk and got fewer elk and considers that a success? Also, the tone of the paper seemed to be that the goal was to restore habitat by removing cattle and ungulates. Am I reading that correctly? I don't want to be dense, and I get that restoring forage may be the first step to increasing elk, but I don't think I saw anywhere that restoring elk numbers was an actual goal. Again, thanks for that link.

[GoatGuy]

GG:

Interesting link. Maybe I missed the point, but I saw this "The elk management objective to reduce the population wintering in the South Trench by 20 to 40 percent over 3 to 5 years wasmet". I get that there are competing interests, but am I reading that correctly? FNLR wanted fewer elk and got fewer elk and considers that a success? Also, the tone of the paper seemed to be that the goal was to restore habitat by removing cattle and ungulates. Am I reading that correctly? I don't want to be dense, and I get that restoring forage may be the first step to increasing elk, but I don't think I saw anywhere that restoring elk numbers was an actual goal. Again, thanks for that link.

Correct.

Problems with homesteader elk and impacts on habitat, particularly winter range that homesteader elk were living on 12months/year.

The migratory component not so much of an issue habitat wise but it is also the component that is disappearing.

[findlyflats]

I just want to bring this back one more time because of how disappointing it was to see a specific elk heard from the findlay creek area that was decimated by fn hunting in just 5 years.

Clearly some believe the problem is predators alone, but there are some who accept there is another reason for the decline in some elk and moose populations.

Where i live we have the same problem, the fn hunting takes does fawns and bucks and do it at night, this has decimated the deer populations in the area.
The one good thing is you cant wipe out deer, but sadly you can wipe out the elk.

This statement from the Shuswap band says it very well.

A notice of our guidelines along with the statement that:
if we do not regulate hunting; there will be no Elk left to hunt.
This will be sent out to all Bands.

http://shuswapnation.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Elk-hunt-Draft.pdf

I am impressed with the Shuswap Band Chief and Council from Invermere B.C. for seeing the problem and taking steps to deal with it.
There is a problem with this , is appears they are still allowing the killing of female elk and moose and allowing a late season hunt.



September 1, 2015
To All Shuswap Nation Chief, Council and Nation Members:
Re: Elk population in the East Kootenays
At a meeting of concerned parties it was determined that the Elk population in the
Findlay Creek and Skookumchuck area is in serious decline. The Elk herds will
need a minimum two years of restricted hunting to bring the population back to a
healthy number.

Shuswap Band Chief and Council ask that all First Nation hunters follow the regular Elk hunting season for a minimum of two years. Regular season is from sept 10 to oct 20


It is important that all concerned, native and non-native, abide by these regulations designed to
preserve the Elk populations for future generations.
We are requesting the Shuswap Communities, by consensus, agree to the rules
in place for the 2015 hunting season. Specifically in the Skookumchuck and
Findlay Creek hunting areas. The rules are as follows:
1.
Permit Only Hunting for all First Nations members wishing to hunt in the
East Kootenays, will be $ 30.00 (thirty) dollars.
For 1 Elk, or 1 moose, and a deer, either Whitetail or Mule deer. These
permits will be issued by the Shuswap Band Titles And Rights Department.
Please contact Rosalita Pascal
at (250) 341-3678
Monday –Friday, or submit written requests to RR#2 3A-
492 Arrow road, Invermere B.C. V0A1K2
. Electronic submissions can be made by request to
rpascal@shuswapband.net
2.
All hunters will be required to report to the Shuswap Band of their
intentions to hunt.
3.
All hunters not permitted; will have their animals removed and given to the
local First Nations for supporting community membership
.
4.
All proper documentation must be provided to local Conservation Officers
at their request.
RR 2 3A
-
492 Arrow. Rd Invermere, BC, V0A
-
1
K2 Ph: 250.341.3678 Fax: 250.341.3683
Email: info@shuswapband.net
5.
A notice of our guidelines along with the statement that: if we do not
regulate hunting; there will be no Elk left to hunt. This will be sent out to
all Bands.
6.
All Elk taken from the East Kootenays must be reported to the Shuswap
Band.
7.
There will be no hunting after December 1 for the 2015/2016 hunting
seasons.
The Shuswap Nation and Ktunaxa Nation are working together and in
cooperation with the Province of BC to maintain the Herds.
It is important that we all understand the urgency and immediately implement a
strategy to save the Elk populations in this region. This is a problem that we all
share and we need to work together on a plan to fix it.
We seek your support in developing a mutually agreed upon course of action so that we may stand united in our negotiations, with the Province of British Columbia and/or other levels of government on this matter.
Shuswap Band
Chief and Council
Invermere B.C.
____________________________
Chief Barbara Cote
_______________________
______
Councillor Tim Eugene
_____________________________
Councillor Rosalita Pasca

[limit time]

So 30 buck is going to solve the issue ? Where does it say not to hunt cows ? Almost sounds like an outfitter combo package.

[GoatGuy]

I just want to bring this back one more time because of how disappointing it was to see a specific elk heard from the findlay creek area that was decimated by fn hunting in just 5 years.

Clearly some believe the problem is predators alone, but there are some who accept there is another reason for the decline in some elk and moose populations.

Where i live we have the same problem, the fn hunting takes does fawns and bucks and do it at night, this has decimated the deer populations in the area.
The one good thing is you cant wipe out deer, but sadly you can wipe out the elk.






Here's a bit of info.

A stable population is going to have a calf:cow ratio of around 25 calves:100 cows. With wolves on the landscape and the effect we've seen on adult survival in other jurisdictions it is likely higher than that. So you need at least 25 calves per 100 cows to survive the winter to maintain what you have.

The inventory done in 426 I have showed a recruitment rate of about 36-38 calves:100 cows in 1999 - growing.

IIRC the next inventory wasn't done until 2005 where recruitment was around 14 calves:100 cows, 2009 was around 20 calves:100 cows. That means the population was headed for the gutter back then.

So if you say the herd has been wiped out in the last 5 years that puts us back to 2011??

The inventory shows the population has headed downhill in a hurry in 2005 and likely sooner than that. Either way that's at least 10 years.....

So, again, we come back to the original discussion.

You are blaming FN in the last 5 years. The science says the ship was full of holes at least 10 years ago, likely longer.

Also we saw significant declines in mule deer recruitment through low fawn:doe - are you saying FN were shootin MD fawns as well and leaving does?

You guys gotta get over this stuff.

[Walking Buffalo]

GG

Cow:calf ratios can tell you if there is a Potential for a population to be growing/stable/or declining, but it does not tell you if a population Is growing/stable or declining.

What were the population estimates for those years?

[GoatGuy]

GG

Cow:calf ratios can tell you if there is a Potential for a population to be growing/stable/or declining, but it does not tell you if a population Is growing/stable or declining.

What were the population estimates for those years?mostly comp surveys, don't do srbs very often due to lack of $$.

it's as close as you get to pop traj. And the metrics are based on adult female survival in what was considered normal range which they now don't appear to be. With recruitment in the teens the pop can only be headed in one direction.

[findlyflats]

gg, the fn hunt on the resident elk herd was not in the last 5 years , it happened when the shushwap nation from the kamloops area first started to hunt the vally .
It was probably about 2005 when they found the herd, it was October and they came back when the snow hit, the resident herd had about 20 cows and no less then 6 cows where killed that winter by these guys. The odd thing was there was not that many wolfs around then.
Again i quote.
if we do not regulate hunting; there will be no Elk left to hunt.

[guest]

Gentlemen. If I could just add my 2 cents.

I am happy to see a FN Notice to go out to their people requesting them to do the right thing. At least it is a step in the right direction for management and accountability. That said. I have mentioned the following to many, and SO far it has gone no where, but it would serve to at least help to understand wildlife numbers and aid our wildlife Bio's and managers in counts.

It should be MANDATORY that all licensed hunters, and First Nations, accurately report and disclose ALL harvests.
So my proposal is at the end of hunting seasons, all hunters must report every Moose, Deer, Elk, Wolf Bear etc etc.. Also the same for First Nations hunters. To not report accurately would become a violation.
At present, the random surveys sent out by the Government, Compulsory Inspections and surveys to LEH holders in attempt to get an accurate count, are basically scratching the surface. With this Mandatory reporting, the results would certainly help all Wildlife Biologists and Managers to in the least have more information to help paint the picture of wildlife numbers. How could it do more harm, unless you, I or any one else have something to hide.

Bios budgets are already slim, over the years they have slashed and cut back like crazy....... they need all the help they can get for our Wildlife studies and accurate game count numbers in order to manage wildlife effectively.

I would like like to see the BCWF present this to Government and it become set in stone.

How, would it NOT be beneficial in all regards to good sound management.

CT

[GoatGuy]

I just want to bring this back one more time because of how disappointing it was to see a specific elk heard from the findlay creek area that was decimated by fn hunting in just 5 years.

Clearly some believe the problem is predators alone, but there are some who accept there is another reason for the decline in some elk and moose populations.






gg, the fn hunt on the resident elk herd was not in the last 5 years , it happened when the shushwap nation from the kamloops area first started to hunt the vally .
It was probably about 2005 when they found the herd, it was October and they came back when the snow hit, the resident herd had about 20 cows and no less then 6 cows where killed that winter by these guys. The odd thing was there was not that many wolfs around then.
Again i quote.
if we do not regulate hunting; there will be no Elk left to hunt.

Lol...........................