Planned response to an Anti

[steve-r]

Hi all, looking for some feedback.
Had some folks over for dinner last night, and got to describing my recent successful elk hunt and our planned mule deer hunt.
One of our guests made a comment about how cruel it is to kill defenseless animals. He didnt back it up. To preserve the night, and to please my better half, I just bit my lip and changed the subject so as not to create an uncomfortable situation for the rest of our guests. Yes, I know, many of you will say you would have tossed him out on his ass before dessert....but sometimes you just cant do what your emotions suggest.

So I've been stewing all day about this, and I refuse to let it slide. I'm a hunter and proud of it.
I will not see this individual anytime soon in person, so I plan to send him the following email.
I want to educate him, without making it pissy...if thats possible.
Here is what I've drafted so far... I used some material I found in various online blogs and tried to massage it into the right message.....if you have something valuable that makes the case stronger, please suggest away.

Part 1 (post was too long)

Hi Xxxx
Your comment last night about how killing defenseless animals is cruel gives me cause for concern. While I certainly respect the notion that everyone is entitled to their opinion, as a hunter, I want to make sure you have all the facts before you judge what I do to put meat on my family's table.
If you were totally vegan then I can understand your anti-hunting perspective, however you eat steaks and pork chops from Thriftys, and so it seems somewhat hypocritical to be a meateater and then condemn what I do. So here are some facts for you to consider. Whether your opinion changes or not doesn't matter to me, I just want you to be informed.

First, lets consider what is truly a humane way for an animal to die. Cattle, raised in crowded stock pens, in their own squalor and piss, endure a lot of stress during the slaughter process. Hundreds of them are packed in a corral, being herded to their deaths, and while cows may not be the smartest creatures, when they smell the blood of their own they know what is about to happen is not good. Fear causes stress, and stress releases cortisol adrenaline, which taints the meat, meat that you ingest.

When a deer or elk is shot, he is standing somewhere in a field, minding his own business, maybe checking out a doe or cow he wants to breed, totally not privy to the fact he is about to die. The animals I hunt die almost instantly, without stress, and typically go down right where they stand, leaving no chance for the cortisol to taint the meat.

Second, game meat tastes better. Deer eat acorns, grass, and wild vegetation. They are not fed random foods that have been chemically treated with growth hormones, anti-biotics, steroids, or pesticide toxins, nor are they starved and fed only water just before death to cause weight gain for the market. Venison is the utmost all-natural, organic food you can put in your body. It is the purest form of protein possible.

Ever wonder why the meat companies and fast food restaurants are now advertising "all natural , hormone free, preservative free" products? Maybe its because the informed public have figured out that that crap they have putting in our food isn't very good for you.

Third, deer and elk meat is far healthier to eat. It is leaner, has significantly less fat, less calories, and 3 times less cholesterol than store bought beef or pork. So if your cholesterol is too high from store bought meat, there is an alternative. Ask your doctor.

Fourth, when I kill a deer, I know exactly how the animal has been killed, field dressed, and how the meat has been treated from the field to my table because I've done it myself with a level of care that is not matched with any confidence derived from the way commercial slaughterhouses treat their product despite regular inspection. There are some really disgusting videos online that show the filthy conditions in stock pens, chicken pens, slaughterhouses, and processing plants.
But, since your are not "connected" to the store bought meat the way I am connected to game I have harvested, you don't think about how it got to your table.

To me personally, I get a huge sense of accomplishment and satisfaction when I eat what I have harvested. This applies to more than just wild game, I also enjoy the tuna, salmon, and trout that I catch using my skills. I am directly connected to the food I eat, which is something that simply cannot be said for store bought meat consumption.

It takes a huge investment in equipment, physical and mental preparation, and training, to be a successful hunter. But once this investment is made, there are additional economic benefits to harvesting your own food. My wife and I do not have to buy beef or pork for the next year.

Getting out into the wild natural adventurous landscapes is what it takes to find wild game. But it requires way more than just going out to the wilds. Wild game have many defenses. They have superior eyesight, their ability to smell is 1000 times better, they have superior hearing, they have natural camouflaging outer coats, and they are smart. They spend 365 days a year in the bush, with instincts honed to survive and avoid predators like bears, wolves, coyotes, and cougars. Whereas a hunter only spends 7-14 days a year in the bush trying to find them, and we bring the most unnatural sounds and smells to give ourselves away.
Hunting and killing is not a slam dunk. I hunted hard for 15 hours a day for 10 days to get that elk. When I eat it, I don't just savour the taste, I get to re-live the whole experience, both the highs of success, and the lows of failure.
To be a successful hunter, I have to learn the ways of my prey, and understanding how they fit into the vast landscape requires dedication to my craft. This is unequivocally harder than cruising down the meat section of Thriftys and picking up a package of plastic wrapped protein. I think you would agree its pretty difficult to get the same experience from a trip to Thriftys. There is a strong argument to be made that without that intimate connection to the source of our food, we are robbing ourselves of knowledge and reverence that makes a person and society stronger.


See next post for part 2.

[steve-r]

Part 2
Last but not least, the sport of hunting contributes more to the well being and conservation of a healthy wildlife population than all the groups of anti-hunters combined, not only financially in terms of habitat preservation but through game management as well. Scientific evidence confirms that wildlife populations need to be managed to remain healthy. Hunting is an active component of that management strategy. Without hunting , game populations grow out of control. There is only so much habitat to support wild game. If there are too many deer, elk and moose in a given area, they all compete for the available food source. Then they starve, weakening the herd. This in turn promotes the increase in predators to prey on the weaker animals. More wolves, bears, coyotes and cougars then decimate the game numbers. Once the game is wiped out in an area, the predators move on to the next area, and do the same thing over again. Without hunting, those poor defenseless animals you expressed concern about are instead being slaughtered by predators, and cars, trucks, and trains. For example, A wolf needs 10-20 lbs of game a week minimum to survive. A pack of 10 wolves will eat a deer or two per week...52 weeks per year. There are thousands of wolves in BC. You can do the math, but 100,000 hunters in BC are not nearly as successful nor as proficient as wolves at killing our game. And when we do connect, the death of the animal by a bullet is a lot more humane than getting ripped apart by a pack of wolves or a grizzly bear, crushed by a train, or starving to death.
Hunting doesnt eliminate a game population, or weaken it, in fact it strengthens it, as the strongest survive, perpetuating their DNA throughout the herd.

Hopefully I have given you some food for thought, and regardless of whether your opinion of what I do changes or not, at least you are better informed about the merits of hunting.

[Whonnock Boy]

Looks good to me, except for the second page. Don't know what rr is. "Scientific evidence confirms that wildlife populations need to be rr to remain healthy."

[steve-r]

Typo, thanks for catching

[LupieHunter]

Good info but quite long, especially if being sent in an email. I'd consider shortening it, more likely the recipient will read it in its entirety.

[Pinewood]

Were you guys eating game when he made the comment?

[Drillbit]

A little long. But covers everything pretty well.


The same argument can be said for gardening, which you might want to make that connection as well.

ie. "Fourth, when I kill a deer, I know exactly how the animal has been killed, field dressed, and how the meat has been treated from the field to my table because I've done it myself with a level of care that is not matched with any confidence derived from the way commercial slaughterhouses treat their product despite regular inspection. There are some really disgusting videos online that show the filthy conditions in stock pens, chicken pens, slaughterhouses, and processing plants.
But, since your are not "connected" to the store bought meat the way I am connected to game I have harvested, you don't think about how it got to your table.

To me personally, I get a huge sense of accomplishment and satisfaction when I eat what I have harvested. This applies to more than just wild game, I also enjoy the tuna, salmon, and trout that I catch using my skills. I am directly connected to the food I eat, which is something that simply cannot be said for store bought meat consumption."

[Buckmeister]

I like it. I don't think you need to worry about the length. You did fail to mention that the animals we hunt are FAST, another advantage.

I laugh at how your guest says its cruel to hunt "defenseless" animals. Like as if the cows, chicken, pigs and whatnot that he eats somehow are able to defend themselves from the inevitable demise that they were purposely raised for and that it isn't cruel at all. The term "hypocritical" comes to mind.

[mastercaster]

Not sure about BC ungulates eating acorns,,,probably a food source out east,,,,not that it's very important. I would also bring up the point that hunting is an excellent social activity for you and your family (relatives) and friends and that the meat is often a bonus to high quality time spent together. You get to enjoy all that BC has to offer in terms of terrain and scenery. Plus it's a great way to get physically fit without having to hit the gym or running in the fumes of automobiles.

Send him a youtube of a cow being put down with the device (don't know its name) they use when they slaughter them, as well as a barn that is so crowded with chickens that they don't have the strength to stand on their own. Maybe that might change his mind a tad.

[Gateholio]

These days when someone says something like that, I just laugh at them. Politely, but I still laugh.

I laugh and say "come on now, you eat meat, have leather shoes, leather belts....Don't be a hypocrite."

Next they might say that the pigs and cows were raised to be eaten. So I tell them so were deer and elk and everything else. They will all be food at one point, that's the circle of life.

Then I might point out that the only difference between them and me is that I take responsibility for my food.

And finally, I will tell them that being a vegetarian is disrespectful to their family.

They ask why

I tell them that their ancestors didn't claw their way to the top of the food chain so they could eat a carrot.:)

Anyways, I understand not wanting to disrupt a dinner party, but I like to nip things in the bud, and educate everyone at the table at the same time. And I am more than happy to dismiss their opinions as foolish. At one time I used to try top "explain" things and I am still happy to do so to an open mind. But if someone persists in the "cruel, immoral etc" stuff, I will definitely treat them as silly children. Antis are pretty high and mighty, and they don't like being talked down to.

Anti's will expect you to go on the defensive, backpedal and "justify" why you hunt. I refuse to play that game, I don't need to justify my actions to anyone. I'll turn it back on them and make them explain why they contribute to the cruel meat industry instead of providing healthy, wild organic meat to their family.

[Pemby_mess]

I'll echo that its a little long and overwhelming for someone resistant to your point of view in the first place. Particularly the second page: too detailed and could be seen as kind of shaky reasoning. Everything else above is a pretty solid argument but I suggest distillation to your top ten. Perhaps frame it like that too. EG:

"I enjoyed having you as my guest the other night for dinner. I respect your entitlement to personal opinion but what you said about my method of putting food on my family's table has me thinking about why it's misinformed. So, I would like you to know why I and others like me may choose to hunt what we eat:

1. .......Health
2. .......Humanity
3. .......Sustainability
4. ......Learning and Knowledge
5. .......Challenge
6. .......Economics

etc

In conclusion........etc"

Don't tell your recipient that you don't care what he thinks or if he changes his opinion and that you only wish to educate him in your introduction. Save that for the conclusion if you must.

I hope we here can help and good luck!

Otherwise good on you for going through your reasons with someone that disagrees with you. With enough practice it can be done even while in polite company over dinner, lol. A disagreement like that should never be seen as reason to toss someone out - but an opportunity. He was only telling you how he feels, and often those feelings can come from a place they have never even critically thought about before. Well done for taking the time to make a reasoned well thought out response.

[steve-r]

Partially. Store bought turkey and wild albacore tuna I caught.

[twoSevenO]

What if they bring up trapping? I honestly have no good rebuttal for that one. While i don't participate in trapping the (very) little I know about it does seem kind of cruel to me especially in an era where no one gives a sh** about pelts and furs anymore, really.

[Falken]

I think you've hit most of the major points non hunters fail to consider when judging hunting.

One thing you may want to add is the fact that hunting in BC encompasses a 'fair chase' philosophy that steers away from unfair pursuit and entrapment. The animals generally have plenty of opportunity to get away. The animals are born free and can live free providing they make good decisions (which is no different than the good decisions they must make to escape predation by wolves, etc).

This as opposed to animals such as cows, pigs, sheep, chickens, etc who are birthed and raised in bondage solely to harvest their milk, eggs, and their meat ( Which means killing them on an industrial scale).

What is crueller and more ethical? I think it's crueller to selfishly bring life into this world unnaturally (forced breeding), keep it enslaved, use it, and then kill it without it having a chance at a free independent life. Just because supermarket shoppers don't do the corralling and the killing doesn't mean they aren't complicit in the act. The industry wouldn't exist without their demand.

of course, any suggestion that anti hunting meat eaters should look at their own actions and lifestyle must be done gingerly as they can be emotional, irrational creatures. Sadly, that's the burden of hunters everywhere 😉

[guest]

Does your guest fish. Do they like fishing. Do they keep what they catch. Some will argue fish are cold blooded and feel no pain. Sure. This is why they run, swim fast and jump. Fight for their lives. Then, maybe your guest nets said fish. As it flips and goes crazy in the net, struggling for its life. Then your guest ........ Clubs it to death. Wow. Far more humane then then hunting isn't it. Not!

I rest my case.

Gone huntin ...... CT

[boxhitch]

an era where no one gives a sh** about pelts and furs anymore, really. No, not 'really', or their wouldn't be a market for the products. In many segments of cultures furs are still worn, and in many articles fur or hair are superior to man-made products. The scene has changed, yes, but the demand creates the market.

[Spy]

Ha ha I would have dished up his/her plate with only vegetables, or asked how the meat tastes :-) Don't bother sending an email, its not even worth the time you have spent pondering it. Just be ready next time and give your ol lady the heads up that you won't be insulted in your house again..

[Dash]

Well said!

[brian]

My take, it is cruel to kill defenseless animals, but there are no defenseless animals... that is an absurd statement. Evolution has provided animals with all sorts of incredible defenses. But regardless of their state of defense, the cruelty of killing is innate to nature. It is evolution at its finest. We define it as cruelty only because of our culture. To think you are above cruelty and yet survive in our society is the height of blindness, especially if you eat meat.

[webley]

I had the same thing happen to me several years ago, sitting at the dinner table eating chicken and her husband asked if I had been hunting, His wife perked up and called me cruel and would not shut up.
I looked at my wife and she knew what was coming. I told that women that I see you are eating an animal and that the only difference between me and her is that I do my own dirty work and you have to have someone do it for you. She stared at me for a minute and went quiet, My wife smiled and we carried on with dinner, the women never did say anything about hunting in our house again. Steve !

[adriaticum]

If you write a novel about this they win.
Do what Gatehouse says. Laugh.
And never invite them to your house again.
Let some other sucker get the meat for them.

[two-feet]

I started this a while back for just this kind of situation. The thread went sideways right away, as happens some times. But I 100% stand by it and hopefully some of the arguments can be usedul to you.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?130116-In-defence-of-wild-food

[nature girl]

I liked your first post. Or you could just say next time you are over for dinner you are getting wild game meat.
I just tell people that know I hunt and don't like it I say atleast I see the animal first before I kill it.

[ajr5406]

I like your response. The fact that you take the time to think and craft a response should show this person that you care deeply about hunting and the outdoors. It's not too long, we read it in less thank 3 minutes...

Also remember that when a person makes a statement, the onus of proof is on THEM to defend their position, not you!

if they asked me the same question, I would have said "what makes you thinking hunting an animal in its natural environment cruel?" And then, "how did you come to that conclusion?"

if if they are gonna throw out the "cruel" defence, make them defend it!

[two-feet]

We all MUST be able to justify and defend hunting or we risk losing the support of the majority. Hunting is under attack in our society, educating people with the facts is our best way forward.

[Wild one]

A simple response I have used

i prefer to take full responsibility and experience the whole process that is involved in putting meat on my table. When it comes to the animals I hunt for food the process of the hunt increase the level of respect I have for the meat on my table. I had to go out and earn this meat with a combination of hard work, knowledge, and time because going to the bush to get meat is not as simple as a trip to Costco.

without going out and experiencing it first hand it maybe hard to understand. When I eat the meat from my hunt it is not just looked at as food. I remember the hunt which can involve seeing things in nature most overlook, time spent with friends/family, the animal it self not just its flesh, and so much more.

When most non hunters eat a steak from the store they only see food. When a hunter eats meat from a hunt most remember that animal and the experience bringing A higher level of respect for the meat on our plate.

What a non hunter may see as shooting poor defenceless animals has a lot more meaning to those that hunt.

[steve-r]

Appreciate the feedback and suggestions. I just cant laugh it off, I really feel I need to take a stand with this person.
I will try to incorporate the additional points, but also try to be less wordy...was always a fault of mine with email.
Just thinking about the response has helped as I feel better prepared to respond the next time. Much thanks!

[adriaticum]

Appreciate the feedback and suggestions. I just cant laugh it off, I really feel I need to take a stand with this person.
I will try to incorporate the additional points, but also try to be less wordy...was always a fault of mine with email.
Just thinking about the response has helped as I feel better prepared to respond the next time. Much thanks!

By laughing it off you do take a stand.
By engaging an idiot in a conversation you sink to their level and you defend yourself which automatically assigns fault to you.
You are giving them exactly what they want.
If you can't answer it in 1 sentence, don't answer it at all.

[adriaticum]

Hunters are cruel (not my picture)


http://www.thealaskalife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Alaska-Dall-Sheep-Hunt-23.jpg

[adriaticum]

He is not a hunter.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-scyTH9W54yk/UUCRiQvwYlI/AAAAAAAAAGk/lE1gQHt56Fc/s1600/fat-man.jpg

[Wild one]

By laughing it off you do take a stand.
By engaging an idiot in a conversation you sink to their level and you defend yourself which automatically assigns fault to you.
You are giving them exactly what they want.
If you can't answer it in 1 sentence, don't answer it at all.

You can never change an idiots mind but if you take the time to speak in a manner that is non offensive to those who are uneducated you can cause them to think about there stance

Most often people reach opinions by talking to others. If people only hear one side that is all they know. Laughing it off or ignoring it changes nothing but talking can cause people to think before they speak

Ran into those who will never understand but have caused others to change what they think of hunting and hunters

[adriaticum]

You can never change an idiots mind but if you take the time to speak in a manner that is non offensive to those who are uneducated you can cause them to think about there stance

Most often people reach opinions by talking to others. If people only hear one side that is all they know. Laughing it off or ignoring it changes nothing but talking can cause people to think before they speak

Ran into those who will never understand but have caused others to change what they think of hunting and hunters



Don't take the bait.
The only reason there is a conversation about hunting is because we keep taking the bait.
Every piece of meat on the table goes through a process.
I prefere to do the whole process myself.

Some animals fetch their own food, some don't.
For example, domestic pigs never fetch their own food.

The only response I have to anti hunters is an allergic reaction.

[fuzzy 63]

as stated by a few already , do not engage a ignorant in conversation , they will only bring you to their level , and then they will beat you with experience .
Enuff said .
Consider the source and then move on .
lots of people are hypocrites without even knowing that they are . your energy is best spent elsewhere .
good thread , cya and enjoy your day

[VLD43]

There is a very important and simple concept you have missed in your otherwise well written response. Ask your dinner guest if they have ever killed a bug, mouse, rat, or any other "pest". When they respond that more than likely they have, ask them want makes one life more important than another. Then tell them, that as a hunter, you respect all life equally, and take your responsibility as a hunter very seriously. Add that you do not kill any wild game based on the "cuteness factor", or because it annoys you, but harvest wild game as a food resource. Ask them if they ate the last wasp they killed, or just left it on the ground, and wasted that food resource. People like your dinner guest suffer from what I call the "GOD SYNDROME". They decide another life forms fate, based on fear or annoyance level.

[Wild one]

Don't take the bait.
The only reason there is a conversation about hunting is because we keep taking the bait.
Every piece of meat on the table goes through a process.
I prefere to do the whole process myself.

Some animals fetch their own food, some don't.
For example, domestic pigs never fetch their own food.

The only response I have to anti hunters is an allergic reaction.

I will continue to speak when I feel the person maybe worth the time and walk from those who are true idiots

I have had positive results many times so it has been far from a waste

to each there own

[adriaticum]

I will continue to speak when I feel the person maybe worth the time and walk from those who are true idiots

I have had positive results many times so it has been far from a waste

to each there own

That's true too.
Response also has to be in accordance with one's personality.

[Wild one]

That's true too.
Response also has to be in accordance with one's personality.

It can be tough to judge if someone is an idiot or uneducated at times lol

often it is those who are willing to ask ? On why we hunt that can be reached. Those that only respond with insults will never listen enough to learn a thing.

you are correct judging the personality you are dealing with is the key

[Pemby_mess]

By laughing it off you do take a stand.
By engaging an idiot in a conversation you sink to their level and you defend yourself which automatically assigns fault to you.
You are giving them exactly what they want.
If you can't answer it in 1 sentence, don't answer it at all.

Nothing the guy described about the anti makes him an "idiot". He was offering up an emotionally driven opinion that is grossly misinformed. He could very well be otherwise bright and articulate, making him a potential evangelical asset in the war of opinion. His experience is what lead him to his belief and the OP is seizing the opportunity to give him a new experience and therefore potentially a new point of view.

A sense of humour is a great tool to communicate with in the moment, but sometimes the situation dictates a more delicate approach. The OP missed the opportunity to correct him in the moment and wishes instead to do it after a short time of carefully thinking about a thoughtful response. Hunters should commend him for that.

If the guy truly is an idiot, and after a well reasoned counter argument, still doesn't see a problem with his previous point of view, than I agree, talking more about it changes nothing and does more harm than good. Best to leave it at that point.