Scarce moose? First Nations chief says 'no moose' in large part of Chilcotin

[Ohwildwon]

Hmmm, very interesting indeed!


Any talk on wildlife conservation in the media is a good thing, but...





http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/scarce-moose-first-nations-chief-says-no-moose-in-large-part-of-chilcotin (http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/scarce-moose-first-nations-chief-says-no-moose-in-large-part-of-chilcotin)


An effort by the B.C. government to determine how many moose are killed by hunters in the Chilcotin may be too little, too late, according to the head of the Tsilhqot’in National Government (http://www.tsilhqotin.ca/).
For years, First Nations in B.C.’s Interior have worried about the growing impact of the mountain pine beetle on moose, a traditional food source. The province’s decision to open up vast tracts of dead forests for harvest led to a network of roads that gave greater access for hunters. The Chilcotin area west of the Fraser River and between Quesnel and Williams Lake is a popular area for B.C.’s resident hunters.
Now, as the moose population declines, the government has begun a mandatory reporting system for hunters (http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/ci.html), in part to study the moose population and help co-manage the area with the Tsilhqot’in.
The study is one outcome of the Nenqay Deni accord (http://www.tsilhqotin.ca/PDFs/Nenqay_Deni_Accord.pdf)signed earlier this year between the province and the Tsilhqot’in after a 2014 court decision that awarded 4,400 square kilometres of the Chilcotin to the First Nation.
But Chief Joe Alphonse, the Tsilhqot’in tribal chair, doubts the effort will be successful because there are few moose left in the area.


“My main concern is always about the health of the moose population, and it seems the concern is greater now than it has ever been,” he said. “We’re not finding them. I guess they’re not going to have a very successful study because there is not going to be very many samples provided because there is no more moose left.”
Alphonse said the government estimates there are 360 bull moose alone in his community between Hanceville and Alexis Creek on Highway 20.
“Three-hundred and sixty bull moose in my area? I don’t even think we have 30 bull moose,” he said.
There is no question moose have been hit hard by the pine beetle kill, said Mike Pedersen, the regional executive director for the Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations (http://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/governments/organizational-structure/ministries-organizations/ministries/forest-and-natural-resource-operations) in the Cariboo region.
“There was an urgency to deal with the moose population in the Tsilhqot’ins’ traditional territory. There has been close to 15 years of (pine beetle) harvest in the Chilcotin, which is predominantly lodgepole pine,” he said.
“So now we are trying to understand how to move forward with moose management with the Tsilhqot’in. It is centred around understanding what the harvests are. We are collaboratively trying to understand how to manage this piece with them.”
The new rules require hunters who bag a moose to submit their animal for inspection, so that data can be collected on the size and age of the moose as well as location. The rule also applies to guides and outfitters. It is a change from the past, when hunters were encouraged — but not required — to report their kills.
Moose in the Cariboo region can only be hunted through a “limited entry hunting” lottery. This year the province estimated it would issue nearly 1,000 LEH tags in the management units covering Tsilhqot’in traditional territory, which are subject to the compulsory reporting requirements.
But Alphonse said he’s seen little effort by the government to reduce hunting pressure on moose even as it sped up harvest of the forests by putting in many more logging roads.
And he says the province’s land management bureaucrats don’t take into consideration all of the factors affecting the moose population, whether it is logging roads, increased public hunting pressure, the guiding industry and First Nations’ needs.
“They never look at anything from a holistic view,” he said. “When you combine all those things it spells devastation for the moose population in the Chilcotin.”
Pedersen said that earlier this year the province shortened the general hunting season in the west Cariboo, closing September to all but First Nations hunters in an effort to give the Tsilqot’in more opportunities to bag a moose.
“If there is no moose in the forest it makes no difference,” said Alphonse.
jefflee@postmedia.com (jefflee@postmedia.com)
twitter.com/sunciviclee (http://Twitter.com/sunciviclee)

[Whonnock Boy]

Traditional food source, or traditional since European settlers arrived?

[RiverOtter]

Be curious to know what the cow/calf rifle mortality was since the tribe first became concerned about declining moose numbers....

[Ry151]

So if all hunters must report, does this also include First Nation harvests?

[Whonnock Boy]

0 cow moose have been harvested by resident hunters since 1992. In that same time, a rough and dirty estimate of bulls harvested by resident hunters has averaged 80 per year. If there were less than 10 bulls for every 100 cows, I would agree, resident hunting has contributed to the decline. Does the evidence suggest that? I don't think so.

[REMINGTON JIM]

0 cow moose have been harvested by resident hunters since 1992. In that same time, a rough and dirty estimate of bulls harvested by resident hunters has averaged 80 per year. If there were less than 10 bulls for every 100 cows, I would agree, resident hunting has contributed to the decline. Does the evidence suggest that? I don't think so.

EXACTLEY ! guess who killed all the moose that the bears and wolves did not ? :shock: RJ

[300wsmBrowning]

Wonder if they have to count all the ones FN shot and left to rot along side the road or left in the back yard for the dogs to eat or just cut the back strap out and leave the rest.

[HarryToolips]

0 cow moose have been harvested by resident hunters since 1992. In that same time, a rough and dirty estimate of bulls harvested by resident hunters has averaged 80 per year. If there were less than 10 bulls for every 100 cows, I would agree, resident hunting has contributed to the decline. Does the evidence suggest that? I don't think so.
Exactly....love how they try to point the blame on us, when they are the primary reason for the decline...until they wake up and take accountability for their own actions, we will still have the same problems...

[180grainer]

FN don't have to report any of their kills as far as I know. How do you effectively manage any wildlife species when one of the biggest impacts, FN hunting, is never factored in? Blame the pine beetle?

[bearvalley]

EXACTLEY ! guess who killed all the moose that the bears and wolves did not ? :shock: RJ


Wonder if they have to count all the ones FN shot and left to rot along side the road or left in the back yard for the dogs to eat or just cut the back strap out and leave the rest.


Exactly....love how they try to point the blame on us, when they are the primary reason for the decline...until they wake up and take accountability for their own actions, we will still have the same problems...


Hmmm, very interesting indeed!


Any talk on wildlife conservation in the media is a good thing, but..

And he says the province’s land management bureaucrats don’t take into consideration all of the factors affecting the moose population, whether it is logging roads, increased public hunting pressure, the guiding industry and First Nations’ needs.
“They never look at anything from a holistic view,” he said. “When you combine all those things it spells devastation for the moose population in the Chilcotin.”
Pedersen said that earlier this year the province shortened the general hunting season in the west Cariboo, closing September to all but First Nations hunters in an effort to give the Tsilqot’in more opportunities to bag a moose.
“If there is no moose in the forest it makes no difference,” said Alphonse.
jefflee@postmedia.com (jefflee@postmedia.com)
twitter.com/sunciviclee (http://Twitter.com/sunciviclee)

The way I read it he blames the moose decline on a combination of issues.
The one he failed to note was predation, probably on purpose to not draw media attention.
Our provincial bureaucrats love it when we keep pointing our fingers at the other guy instead of being accountable for our own actions.
We need to remember that as long as someone else is taking the heat the bureaucrats can duck out on taking any blame for wildlife mismanagement.
The senior biologist for Region 5 seems to think the Chilcotin/Cariboo moose population is fine.
Maybe we need to stop blaming each other and get to the root of the problem?

[mpotzold]

"Pedersen said that earlier this year the province shortened the general hunting season in the west Cariboo, closing September to all but First Nations hunters in an effort to give the Tsilqot’in more opportunities to bag a moose."

Don't understand!:confused::confused:
Isn't 24/7 enough?? And that includes the very young & cow!

Last 2 years hunting in the Farwell, Big Creek, Gang area we did not see any moose while covering extensive ground. The black bears were everywhere.
I blame the declining numbers mostly on the bears. The indiscriminate 24/7 slaughter doesn't help.

[Whonnock Boy]

There's no doubt that the article touched base on several factors but, let's make sure everyone knows all of the factors. It get's pretty tiresome seeing continual fingers pointed at resident hunters with nobody else stepping up to the plate taking part of the blame. Calling a spade, a spade, is the first step of recovery.



Maybe we need to stop blaming each other and get to the root of the problem?

[Spy]

There's no doubt that the article touched base on several factors but, let's make sure everyone knows all of the factors. It get's pretty tiresome seeing continual fingers pointed at resident hunters with nobody else stepping up to the plate taking part of the blame. Calling a spade, a spade, is the first step of recovery.
X2 I could not agree more enough of this political correctness crap. Time to start calling a spade a spade, time for the keepers of the land to be called out for their slaughter. Enough of this ceremonial crap. We want more moose then we need to start working together. I do think that the article chose not to say anything about the wolves and bears, that just does not fit their narrative.

[dougan]

Bucket heads suck snivelling piles of dung and nothing more

[Mosin]

EXACTLEY ! guess who killed all the moose that the bears and wolves did not ? :shock: RJ

Starvation? Disease? Poachers?

[HarryToolips]

X2 I could not agree more enough of this political correctness crap. Time to start calling a spade a spade, time for the keepers of the land to be called out for their slaughter. Enough of this ceremonial crap. We want more moose then we need to start working together. I do think that the article chose not to say anything about the wolves and bears, that just does not fit their narrative.
Your exactly right....obviously the BCWF would not help us in calling FN's out, maybe the pred problem they would though..how could we as resident hunters start calling out the 'stewards of the land'? Do we need another group or federation to represent us to start calling them out in the media, or would we be liable to get sued?

[Elk-Aholic]

0 cow moose have been harvested by resident hunters since 1992. In that same time, a rough and dirty estimate of bulls harvested by resident hunters has averaged 80 per year. If there were less than 10 bulls for every 100 cows, I would agree, resident hunting has contributed to the decline. Does the evidence suggest that? I don't think so.

Well said WB! sounds to me like someone needs to educate "postmedia" with the Vancouver Sun for their post. Best get all the facts before they write an article about a declining moose population. Doesn't hurt to educate the uneducated in a matter like this, opposed to listening to one individual/group and thinking everything they say is all truth. 1+1=2 scenario lol.

We live in the 21st century and sadly, there is a lot of take take take. Everyone wants a piece of the pie and will cut any chunks off another plate if it benefits them. I'm not solo'ing any one group here as I think they are all guilty of
it in one way or another and some point. But who speaks up for the moose? Who's willing to close or drastically reduce seasons down to help a population rebound? Now I know on LEH this is very manageable for residents and non-residents, but there's another big factor in there and are they willing to also limit harvest to help a population out? How about predation management to help a species....I see some of these groups helping the cause but aren't they a sacred species too.....In today's era, finger pointing is a way to order food from Boston Pizza, but as hunters, time to step up to the plate and maybe admit wrong and be there for wildlife. We are the first line of conservationists, and like most, I hope my kids, kids, kids are able to hunt in BC and that there's actually animals to hunt for them. Time for me to dust off the work gloves and make a phone call or 2

[Whonnock Boy]

Just to clarify, 0 cow moose have been harvested in the area that has been mapped out in the land claim. If their traditional area includes regions 5-3, 5-4, 5-5, 5-12, 5-13, and 5-14, roughly 140 cow moose have been harvested since 92. In 2001, the last cow was harvested by resident hunters in 5-13.

[Surrey Boy]

I'll have to stock the area with feral hogs. Not a traditional food source so the Indians can't claim them.

Never out of season, no bag limit. Life will be good.

[Red_Mist]

Just to clarify, 0 cow moose have been harvested in the area that has been mapped out in the land claim. If their traditional area includes regions 5-3, 5-4, 5-5, 5-12, 5-13, and 5-14, roughly 140 cow moose have been harvested since 92. In 2001, the last cow was harvested by resident hunters in 5-13.

I witnessed the "keepers" poach a cow last week in one of the above MU's. From what I saw i honestly don't think wolves are the main problem at all, at least in the area i was.

[REMINGTON JIM]

Starvation? Disease? Poachers?

Yea Yea u bet ! Prob for sure ! Yup ! :roll: thks
Cheers RJ

[Fisher-Dude]

Your exactly right....obviously the BCWF would not help us in calling FN's out, maybe the pred problem they would though..how could we as resident hunters start calling out the 'stewards of the land'? Do we need another group or federation to represent us to start calling them out in the media, or would we be liable to get sued?

You go start a group that fights the natives.

Let us know how that works out for you.

[Surrey Boy]

You go start a group that fights the natives.

Let us know how that works out for you.

Sure seems to be enough demand. Whiteys want equality, not a second-class citizenship.

[Mosin]

Sure seems to be enough demand. Whiteys want equality, not a second-class citizenship.

So you signing up?

[Mosin]

I witnessed the "keepers" poach a cow last week in one of the above MU's. From what I saw i honestly don't think wolves are the main problem at all, at least in the area i was.

Did you get pics or was ur cell phone battery dead? Did you get plate numbers or was your pen and paper not in ur glove compartment?

[Red_Mist]

Pictures taken. Plate taken. It's been passed along.

[emerson]

Just to clarify, 0 cow moose have been harvested in the area that has been mapped out in the land claim. If their traditional area includes regions 5-3, 5-4, 5-5, 5-12, 5-13, and 5-14, roughly 140 cow moose have been harvested since 92. In 2001, the last cow was harvested by resident hunters in 5-13.
Hmmm. That doesn't fit with the accepted version of reality. You must be a radical fringe neocon.

[emerson]

Did you get pics or was ur cell phone battery dead? Did you get plate numbers or was your pen and paper not in ur glove compartment?

I get what you are putting down. Any "unacceptable" narrative must be attacked and belittled. Facts much less critical, eh?

[HarryToolips]

Sure seems to be enough demand. Whiteys want equality, not a second-class citizenship.

And this is exactly it, enough is enough, we gotta do something, maybe if someone spoke on behalf of all 'resident hunters', then they couldn't sue all of us??

[Xenomorph]

Pictures taken. Plate taken. It's been passed along.


Would making that public ever be an option? I'm thinking the only real pressure for change will be public call for change, and that cannot come with information. The perception is already skewed ...what else is to do?

[Xenomorph]

And this is exactly it, enough is enough, we gotta do something, maybe if someone spoke on behalf of all 'resident hunters', then they couldn't sue all of us??


I wonder when people will chime in on all those "my buddy FN guided hunt" that keeps happening. Funny thing is reading the FB page on the Klappan was a lot of mention of that. Some of you more experienced here probably already know what I am talking about ...so I'll leave it at that. Chew on that tobacco, eh?!?

[Mosin]

Pictures taken. Plate taken. It's been passed along.

Good job, do se get to see the pics.? Just blur ouy the face and license plates. Im curious to see this

[Mosin]

I get what you are putting down. Any "unacceptable" narrative must be attacked and belittled. Facts much less critical, eh?

Show the facts then

[Spy]

He told you he passed the info on to the authority's???

[Red_Mist]

Mosin, I don't think discussing a matter in any more detail like this is appropriate on a public forum. Especially if it could possibly harm the ability of the investigators.

[Fisher-Dude]

And this is exactly it, enough is enough, we gotta do something, maybe if someone spoke on behalf of all 'resident hunters', then they couldn't sue all of us??

Go for it.

Start the group and lead the charge. Don't wait for someone else to do it.

[Mosin]

He told you he passed the info on to the authority's???

Whats ur point? Am i not allowed to ask any questions pertaining to a heinous crime like poaching which affects the rest of us? I wanna see the poachers prosecuted but we may never know what came of this situation if it isnt publicized. Iy would be comforting to know they got punished

[Spy]

Whats ur point? Am i not allowed to ask any questions pertaining to a heinous crime like poaching which affects the rest of us? I wanna see the poachers prosecuted but we may never know what came of this situation if it isnt publicized. Iy would be comforting to know they got punished
My point is he handed all info on to the authority's.

[Surrey Boy]

So you signing up?

Where do I sign up?

End Indian Privelege!

[HarryToolips]

Go for it.

Start the group and lead the charge. Don't wait for someone else to do it.
Great, I know you have lots of experience with this sort of thing...PM me and give me some suggestions please, would it be wise to start with just say, a letter to the editor in a newspaper??

[walks with deer]

I think we are loosing track of the issues here..essentially beattle kill has opened up the forest...we need to decomission these roads to avoid predation... the more motor vehicle closures the better.

[Fisher-Dude]

I think we are loosing track of the issues here..essentially beattle kill has opened up the forest...we need to decomission these roads to avoid predation... the more motor vehicle closures the better.

Is LEH bull only the cause of decline? Sex ratios are good in the area, so please explain how restricting access to bull only LEH holders aids calf recruitment.

[Whonnock Boy]

Before ASSuming, maybe he was talking about locals, not resident hunters. ;)


Is LEH bull only the cause of decline? Sex ratios are good in the area, so please explain how restricting access to bull only LEH holders aids calf recruitment.

[Xenomorph]

Where do I sign up?

End Indian Privelege!

A bit of maturity and common sense looking at all this would serve a better purpose. Don't mean to be disrespectful, but if we start a conversation on that tone, we ain't changing anything, nor gaining any support for the management programs that need both hunters and public alike to ensure right methods are utilized for the benefits of -you've guessed it- wildlife.

Call me old fashioned, call me a boob, but I always say the calm voice before the bitchslap is the best way to avoid a fight degenerate.

We're not asking for this to change because of "privilege envy", we're calling for a change because these harvest methods are unsustainable, not logical, and it makes all of us suffer the lack of game opportunities, and that my dear sir is what our discourse should be.

[two-feet]

A bit of maturity and common sense looking at all this would serve a better purpose. Don't mean to be disrespectful, but if we start a conversation on that tone, we ain't changing anything, nor gaining any support for the management programs that need both hunters and public alike to ensure right methods are utilized for the benefits of -you've guessed it- wildlife.

Call me old fashioned, call me a boob, but I always say the calm voice before the bitchslap is the best way to avoid a fight degenerate.

We're not asking for this to change because of "privilege envy", we're calling for a change because these harvest methods are unsustainable, not logical, and it makes all of us suffer the lack of game opportunities, and that my dear sir is what our discourse should be.

yes the science and the reality on the ground are completely left out of the picture the media paints. Blaming resident hunters for the lack of moose in region 5 may be intuitive to some but the facts are much different. I suppose no one else will tell our side of the story so it is up to us collectively to get the points across.

[Ohwildwon]

How about flying over certain towns and drop leaflets of propaganda?

Worked for the military..:mrgreen:

[Phreddy]

When one gets to the bottom line of this whole mess, they claim it's their traditional right to hunt whatever they want to hunt 24/7/365, they forget to add that it was done on foot with pine pitch torches and either spears or arrows, NOT on quads or pickup trucks, with reach out and touch something firearms. It was also called sustenance (survival) hunting. Only problem is, many of these clowns work in mills, etc., making $30+ an hour. Time for our politicians to quit playing the "Gee I'm sorry that _____ happened a couple hundred years ago and we'll give you special right because of it. I am a multi generational native Canadian. I'm white, and my ancestors were white, but they were born here and helped build this country to be a place one can be proud to call home. I really don't give 2 shits about who was here first, but then the self professed first nations seem to forget (conveniently) that there is very strong evidence that the clovis folks were here when they arrived along with some Polenesian migrants in the south. The point is, we're all here now and lets cut the crap and work together with equal rights for everyone. At the rate it's going, because of all the "special" right demands from different segments of our country's population,,it won't be long before we're all kneeling on prayer mats and bowing to Mecca or being beheaded as infidels.

[1899]

A bit of maturity and common sense looking at all this would serve a better purpose. Don't mean to be disrespectful, but if we start a conversation on that tone, we ain't changing anything, nor gaining any support for the management programs that need both hunters and public alike to ensure right methods are utilized for the benefits of -you've guessed it- wildlife.

Call me old fashioned, call me a boob, but I always say the calm voice before the bitchslap is the best way to avoid a fight degenerate.

We're not asking for this to change because of "privilege envy", we're calling for a change because these harvest methods are unsustainable, not logical, and it makes all of us suffer the lack of game opportunities, and that my dear sir is what our discourse should be.

The point you may be missing is that certain groups feel they have a right to 100% of the sustainable harvest before even considering conservation methods that reduce total harvest. And even then I doubt there is an interest for reducing harvest, or an interest in enforcement of reduced harvest. If you get my drift.

[tinhorse]

Just got back from 5-14. Had our 2 bulls down after 2 days hunting. Saw a larger third bull while looking for deer. I think there are moose, you just need to go where they are in the mu

[Deer_Slayer]

Kinda funny for 1st Nations to be crying about declining moose populations. 1st Nations hunt them year round and take whatever they want, whenever they want. 1st Nations people don't even have a name for moose because moose were never in these areas until they started migrating south, so they are NOT a traditional food source! Time to stand up and take notice about all the 1st nation rumblings in BC regarding our rights to hunt.

[Deer_Slayer]

Unfortunately I think we will see a decline in our game numbers now that Chinese are swarming into the interior and taking up "poaching" errrrrrrr I mean hunting. When game checks are catching Chinese with a cube van loaded with deer and moose we are in trouble. For every one that is caught I am sure 100 get thru to lower mainland. This is NOT racist...it is fact.

[tipper]

Kinda funny for 1st Nations to be crying about declining moose populations. 1st Nations hunt them year round and take whatever they want, whenever they want. 1st Nations people don't even have a name for moose because moose were never in these areas until they started migrating south, so they are NOT a traditional food source! Time to stand up and take notice about all the 1st nation rumblings in BC regarding our rights to hunt.
Very true, they migrated south after the mega fire and were never in these southern areas before then.

[Iltasyuko]

Unfortunately I think we will see a decline in our game numbers now that Chinese are swarming into the interior and taking up "poaching" errrrrrrr I mean hunting. When game checks are catching Chinese with a cube van loaded with deer and moose we are in trouble. For every one that is caught I am sure 100 get thru to lower mainland. This is NOT racist...it is fact.

Is there a news story about this somewhere? I like to share this stuff to my email list.

[JAGRMEISTER]

No mention of overharvest of cows by local bands? Moose need those clearcuts for feed so harvesting pine would appear to be a bullchit excuse! Moose were first seen in the Chilcotin about 1905, so how can anybody claim an ancestral right to harvest them?

[Wild one]

since moving north I can say the amount of bs moose are facing no shock moose numbers are dropping.

Yes beetle kill opened access but so did increase in atv use. Access is not an issue abuse of moose harvest is. Issue with beetle kill is lose of wintering areas

The amount of bs I hear about living here is nuts. Natives are part of the problem some shoot beyond there needs, yes some are selling meat and yes some are wasting. No lack of white guys pulling bs as well, using a fn so they can cover them self poaching, straight up poaching, and rifle during some archery moose seasons. The amount of A hole scum is huge and in all colours. Not enough enforcement and hard for most to be caught and charged

predators no doubt have an impact but changes to the habitat and humans are way more of a problem

human aspect needs to be addressed and race should not be a factor

[Phreddy]

I agree wild one. Race should not be a factor. Everyone, white,red,black orange, pink, and purple should be subject to the same laws and limitations and penalties for breaking them.

[HarryToolips]

Is LEH bull only the cause of decline? Sex ratios are good in the area, so please explain how restricting access to bull only LEH holders aids calf recruitment.
It's not just about restricting LEH holders, it's more about restricting FN's.....how else can we put a bit of a curb in their harvests..

[Spy]

This would be pretty easy to solve if we all followed the same rules and there were NO special rights for anyone to abuse. But hey one can only dream. I dream that my kids can one day have equal rights in Canada. A pipe dream I know, might as well light it up and dream some more. Can these people not see the resentment they are causing, by their greedy actions. Im not alone I have spoken to many first nations who feel the same way. Once again if numbers are so low, shut the hunt down for everyone, until numbers are healthy enough to hunt.

[Phreddy]

It's not just about restricting LEH holders, it's more about restricting FN's.....how else can we put a bit of a curb in their harvests..
If you believe for one minute it will restrict the first (?) nations I've got some prime waterfront real estate to sell you in White Rock. It can best be viewed at low tide.

[HarryToolips]

If you believe for one minute it will restrict the first (?) nations I've got some prime waterfront real estate to sell you in White Rock. It can best be viewed at low tide.
Ya limiting road access is a great way to limit their harvest, do you think all FN's are hike in hunters?

[Phreddy]

Ya limiting road access is a great way to limit their harvest, do you think all FN's are hike in hunters?
only if they can "hike" in with their quads, searchlites, and canons at dark. lol

[Phreddy]

No mention of overharvest of cows by local bands? Moose need those clearcuts for feed so harvesting pine would appear to be a bullchit excuse! Moose were first seen in the Chilcotin about 1905, so how can anybody claim an ancestral right to harvest them?
Actually, the Clovis folks that were here when they arrived could probably make that claim. Unfortunately, it would appear that they were wiped out when the "second who call themselves first" nations arrived. lol

[Phreddy]

You all might find the info at this site interesting:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070223-first-americans.html

[Wild one]

Ya limiting road access is a great way to limit their harvest, do you think all FN's are hike in hunters?

The issue with dealing with road access is not that simple. Deactivation only stops stock trucks not much of a lift is need for a truck to get through and atv's are not effected. The cost is another issue yes logging outfits have some roads they already need to deactivate within a set amount of time but some roads are to left usable. Increasing the severity and the amount of roads involves man power equipment and time. Now add in existing roads who is responsible for them. One of the reasons roads are not deactivated to a level they are not usable at all is future plans of logging. Often deactivated roads are reopened to access new logging blocks. This is just one industry building roads.

as long as BC continues to harvest natural resources this cycle will continue wether it is lumber, mineral, oil, or natural gas.

It may seem simple to just destroy access roads but it comes with many issues. These roads are not just used by hunters and poachers. They were built by some of the major industries that make up BC's economy especially for rural comunities.

bush roads are not killing the moose those that use them to poach/over harvest moose are

[Surrey Boy]

How is advocating a single class of citizenship and the same application of law to everyone racist?

[Bugle M In]

How is advocating a single class of citizenship and the same application of law to everyone racist?

From where I stand....it's not racists at all. (same law for everyone)

Separation and different rules for different classes of people is.

[Rob Chipman]

It's not racist. It's just a waste of time in this context. We live in a country with legislation going back hundreds of years based on race. That legislation still exists and is in force. It ain't about to change. There are too many people and groups benefitting from it. If you want to spin it in a way that will make some peoples' heads explode you could say that we live in a country with legislated racism (Canada? No way! We're too nice. You must be talking about Donald Trump!)


If you want to address hunting and wildlife issues by levelling the playing field for all people regardless of race, fly at 'er. However, be clear about who your opponents are:

First Nations themselves, who have good reason to want to even things up;
a substantial legal industry with both a huge profit motive as well as a sincere belief that they are doing the right thing that work for FNs and are largely funded by your tax dollars;
the government, for whom FN matters are a big justification for existence;
a sizeable segment of the non-native population who think that differential rights are the correct method of governing ourselves.

Think about the recent Tsilqotin land settlement issue referred to in the post. That took years of legal wrangling through the court system. Imagine how much time and effort and cash was expended to accomplish it. The BC hunting community doesn't spend even 1% of that on our goals. If you think that arguing about what's fair will bring the kind of change we want to see with moose populations and hunting...um...with all due respect, you're dreaming.

So, it's not racist to want one law for all people regardless of race, agreed. I think we can also agree that in 2016 you can be labelled a racist for saying that. Crazy, I know, but I think it's factual. We need to pick our battles as well as our allies.

We'd be better off, I think, making allies with FNs on the subject of wildlife management and hunting. It can't be that tough to imagine illegal blockades simply becoming access restrictions based on legal proceedings. In other words, we could see, within one or two decades, large parts of the province off limits to resident hunters, with the force of law supporting it.

The more we argue about how we cut up a dwindling pie the more likely it is that resident hunters will get no slice at all. We need a bigger pie, in the form of more animals, and we need more bakers to help us create it.

[emerson]

This differential system will fall from its own weight when our levels of govt run out of our money. Too many have their livelihood depending on this system for planned change to be actioned.

[HarryToolips]

The issue with dealing with road access is not that simple. Deactivation only stops stock trucks not much of a lift is need for a truck to get through and atv's are not effected. The cost is another issue yes logging outfits have some roads they already need to deactivate within a set amount of time but some roads are to left usable. Increasing the severity and the amount of roads involves man power equipment and time. Now add in existing roads who is responsible for them. One of the reasons roads are not deactivated to a level they are not usable at all is future plans of logging. Often deactivated roads are reopened to access new logging blocks. This is just one industry building roads.

as long as BC continues to harvest natural resources this cycle will continue wether it is lumber, mineral, oil, or natural gas.

It may seem simple to just destroy access roads but it comes with many issues. These roads are not just used by hunters and poachers. They were built by some of the major industries that make up BC's economy especially for rural comunities.

bush roads are not killing the moose those that use them to poach/over harvest moose are
Yes I am well aware of these issues and implications with FSR deactivation, it's definitely all about the $$$ I agree.. And I also agree that it's not the roads killing the moose, it's about the poachers and unethical FN's who shoot all moose they see, not just bulls and obviously don't understand the conservation problems they create by doing so, and many of them probably don't care like we do.. In my area, FSR's going to good forage cutbblocks that I have found that are deactivated properly ie quads also cannot access into these blocks, are showing excellent moose and deer sign, as few actually want to pack out an animal from these areas, especially the culprits of these problems described above..

[HarryToolips]

only if they can "hike" in with their quads, searchlites, and canons at dark. lol
Lol glad you agree;)

[Wild one]

Yes I am well aware of these issues and implications with FSR deactivation, it's definitely all about the $$$ I agree.. And I also agree that it's not the roads killing the moose, it's about the poachers and unethical FN's who shoot all moose they see, not just bulls and obviously don't understand the conservation problems they create by doing so, and many of them probably don't care like we do.. In my area, FSR's going to good forage cutbblocks that I have found that are deactivated properly ie quads also cannot access into these blocks, are showing excellent moose and deer sign, as few actually want to pack out an animal from these areas, especially the culprits of these problems described above..

I agree that old roads can make good habitat and understand the goal is to impact those who are the problem. I just see this as a basically impossible to reach solution in many areas. I only started to touch on some of the issues why it is not a common practice and it goes beyond $. Only good thing is many of the new roads are built to have a shorter life span and winter roads are more commonly used now.

Unfortanatly the only way I see this problem ending is if people choose to change there ways. Some bands are getting better and do set limits within there own band. Others are out of control and some even do it to try and screw whitey. I have no hope in laws changing regarding FN so better off trying to educate and work with FN. Now only if there was enough Chiefs will to look conserving moose numbers so all can use the resource

As for the other poacher more CO's and much higher penalties are needed. Public beatings would be nice to see but it is only a dream lol

The PC mentality in this country and the govt will not make us all equal so better off pushing harder towards negotiating with FN's to solve this issue. Fight and we will get nothing accomplished but no moose for either group to hunt

[spikeforklake]

I saw a really nice COW moose in the back of a pickup on a facebook post of a member of the Tsilhqot’in Nation, maybe that has a bit of a factor on it, bet it wasn't reported either

[Bugle M In]

Only way to start fixing the FN issue is by starting to have their funding cut off that we as tax payers give them thru "our governments".
And than make them pay taxes on any product that "whitey's make"....like we do.

But before that can happen....you have to convince the whiteys who think we need to take care of them all the time...
The same whiteys that voted "trudeau" in.
The same people who's father's and mother's voted in trudeau sr...I suppose.

Until another great depression happens, and all the money is gone for everyone.....we whiteys are F'd.

[nelsonob1]

How is advocating a single class of citizenship and the same application of law to everyone racist?
Your right, Hitler made the same argument . Screw cultural and historical differences, we are all the same, as long as we get to establish the baseline. And just because your beating on the FN that's not racist, your really fighting for equality. Is that about right?
Just the usual nigger hating BS on this forum. They get to shoot more moose than me so I hate them. Really not a deep understanding of the issues.

[HarryToolips]

Do you think that you, a white guy, can lobby to infringe on the charter rights of FN?

Do you realize that widespread road closures would apply to white guys only, and FN will still have access because Trudeau Sr gave it to them? Ever wonder why the local bands have keys to the gates in the Okanagan's "off limits" watershed areas?

You have an oversimplified view of the problem. You call for things that are going to turn around and bite you squarely in the ass.

The law of unintended consequences has never been greater than when we're dealing with FN issues.
A road closure is different than a road deactivation...if a road leading to a cut block is deactivated, they can't go in unless they hike in...these areas, due to far less hunting pressure, have far greater abundance of ungulates, and ungulate sign, from my observations...if more deactivation occurs on more spur FSR's, I doubt they can really bitch about that unless they want to assume the liabilities of said road....

[Surrey Boy]

Your right, Hitler made the same argument . Screw cultural and historical differences, we are all the same, as long as we get to establish the baseline. And just because your beating on the FN that's not racist, your really fighting for equality. Is that about right?
Just the usual nigger hating BS on this forum. They get to shoot more moose than me so I hate them. Really not a deep understanding of the issues.

What reality do you live in?

People have more money, bigger trucks, younger wives, and better health than me but I don't hate them for it. Largely I'm happy for them; it gives me hope that there is more to attain.

The Hitler part is ridiculous.

Thanks for showing we can say nigger on HBC. I never knew we were so free here.

[Looking_4_Jerky]

Rob Chipman, good post. FN have a lot of clout, and allying ourselves with them is more likely to amount in positive change (for everyone) than having them see that we are gunning to limit their harvest so we can increase ours. Considering that the "aboriginal right to hunt" is not only entrenched in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, but in the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, I'm skeptical that resident hunters will be getting much of a share of the pie if FN are shut down in the name of conservation. The Trudeau haters love to blame Pierre for creating Sec 35 of the constitution, but they neglect to consider that we'd have to duck out of the UN to deek out of having a state that acknowledges aboriginal hunting rights.

I'm a honkey too. I don't like the fact that my rights are trumped either. But they literally are. What comes with living in a country with an aboriginal component is that you are forced to acknowledge that component and the corresponding rights. The way to eliminate having to put up with aboriginals' rights trumping mine (in some regards; and hunting being one) is to move to a country that doesn't have an indigenous population. But hey, they may not have moose or some of the other great things our country is known for either. Given that prospect, I'll gladly accept that my hunting is actually a privilege rather than a right like it is for FNs. Maybe this is a good time to go back to the thought of piggybacking on the FNs political clout to accomplish a goal that benefits me too. It's very much a mutually beneficial arrangement.

It is well known that the bands of the West Chilcotin are not ones that are particularly wealthy. If we chose to channel resources toward enabling bands to get a grip on what their members are doing (in a moose harvest context) instead of toward how to boost our share and reduce theirs, I'm predicting we'd get further.

[Bugle M In]

L4J,
Just because the UN came out with a policy, doesn't necessarily make them right?
Many people think JFK was the on who gave Black people more rights etc. (JFK, get's too much appreciation from the
public, in my opinion, on that matter as well as many other things).
But, LBJ made it happen.(not sure had Kennedy been around, it would have been the same result as quickly)
Anyways, LBJ, didn't want to give the "Minorities", MORE rights than the "Majority".
He only ever wanted to give them "The SAME Rights".
How many "indigenous people in Europe" were conquered and abolished over history etc.
This isn't the Stone Ages.(yet we want to implement laws as such)
We all live on the same planet, we all face the same problems.
Yes, still now, there are problems thru out the world.
But, if we ever want to become "One", we will have to play by the same rules.....one day.
As long as there are "different rules" for different people (color or not)......
There will always be Racism, and Injustice.
By stating this is the way it can only be, than you are stating that Inequality is the Future Cornerstone of BC forever.
I doubt the FN ever want to "Willingly let Us Join Them".......
Why would they.....they have a good thing going.....and it is based the fact that "they are different"!
Sounds familiar....doesn't it??????....called "Segregation", if you are old enough to remember.
Just my opinion.

[Whonnock Boy]

A reputable friend just got back from 5-4. Vehicular traffic on the road closure, traffic 24/7, and one cow moose shot.

[metalface]

Just the usual nigger hating BS on this forum.


Thanks for showing we can say nigger on HBC. I never knew we were so free here.

Wow this is an awful embarrassment.

[Surrey Boy]

Wow this is an awful embarrassment.

Somebody, Please, think of the children ! ! !

:shock:

[Stresd]

Wow this is an awful embarrassment.

Why?

nigger (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nigger&defid=303793)

A word that everyone else is afraid to define except in utter seriousness, for fear of being branded a rascist, in total ignorance of the colloquial usage of the word, its characterization in popular culture, and the populations of people it is used most by.

[metalface]

Why?


A word that everyone else is afraid to define except in utter seriousness, for fear of being branded a rascist, in total ignorance of the colloquial usage of the word, its characterization in popular culture, and the populations of people it is used most by.


I'm not convinced that knowing how to copy and paste text gets you the hall pass you think you've earned.

[Surrey Boy]

I'm not convinced that knowing how to copy and paste text gets you the hall pass you think you've earned.

What makes you our overseer?

[Whonnock Boy]

C'mon guys. Drop the BS. Overall, this has been a respectful thread until now.

[Rob Chipman]

L4J

"It is well known that the bands of the West Chilcotin are not ones that are particularly wealthy. If we chose to channel resources toward enabling bands to get a grip on what their members are doing (in a moose harvest context) instead of toward how to boost our share and reduce theirs, I'm predicting we'd get further."

Yeah, it seems like pretty simple math to me. Increasingly FNs are taking over gas stations and stores around the province with varying levels of success, but it seems they want to start generating some money. We talk about how much money hunters spend (and it's a shit ton, let's face it). We (resident hunters) could probably become a substantial customer base for many of those enterprises over time, buying gas and food and possibly some other services. However, that won't happen while we're pointing fingers at each other.

I don't know if I already said this, but chatting with some guys in Nazko the feeling is that resident hunters are the guys doing the damage. What that tells me is that some FNs care about moose. Well, so do we. There's a confluence of interests right there. What's missing is trust.

The other thing I think we should recognize is that we can't generalize about FNs anymore than we can with someone else. I'm sure there are FNs who are sincerely concerned about moose, and I'm sure there are FNs who shoot whatever moose they want, sometimes leaving them to rot. There are FNs who care sincerely about conservation and there are probably FNs who will kill a bunch of sheep to make some rattles, conservation be damned.



And the big key is this: resident hunters don't carry a lot of weight with politicians. We know that. We've recognized it. We've bitched about it. To think that we'll magically get rid of JT and somehow get a new Indian Act and have more moose for white hunters just because there should be one law for everyone is magical thinking. It ain't going to happen. There is a danger that game can become a political token in the struggle for self-determination. If that happens then access to game and the land base that the game is on will be at risk for regular hunters. If that horse gets out of the barn there will be no getting it back in. The next provincial election and the grizzly hunt will give you a preview of that.



I have to laugh a bit when people talk about how good Indians have it. It reminds me of Chris Rock when he says "There ain't a white man in this room that would change places with me, and I'm rich!" What white guy here wants to change places with a random FN guy so that you can get those awesome benefits? Probably not many takers for that! :-)

I've got a quad, a 4x4, a canoe and a Sidekick. I've got a plane and plan on getting a floatplane. I like going to remote areas. A lot of time I get off the quad or out of the 4x4 and hike a long way, but the bottom line is that restricting access is a double edged sword for me. I know it's a big ask, but I want to maintain access and have more moose. If someone says "Quit being lazy. Hike in" I'm inclined to say "So, you want me to hike in through 7 miles of logging slash before I can start hiking another 5 miles back through the undisturbed forest?" I think we need a better answer. I think that involves making more game, and I'm pretty sure that will take more money and study of the game (glad to see the recent announcement on that, btw).

I recently heard Shane Mahoney talking to some people in Iowa on a podcast. He said two things that I think have merit here. First, he said we can't rest on our laurels and talk about how much we've done in past generations to conserve game. We need to step up now and do more. Second, he pointed out that 100 or 125 years ago it wasn't just hunters who championed conservation, and he described how women groups fighting for the vote were also leaders in stopping the plume hunt (the hunt for feathers for the fashion industry that devastated bird populations). His point is that we may not really want to build coalitions with non-hunters, but that we have to do it if we're going to be successful.

In today's terms I think he's talking about making coalitions with groups like FNs and urban animal lovers. I think he's right about that.

[Bugle M In]

Well Rob,
You can laugh all you want....you have all the "toys".....sounds like fun....I guess I would laugh at everyone else as well.
Maybe, but that would be out of character for me.
I'm not laughing.
Sounds like I have more incommon with the FN than you do.
Do I think one rule for everyone will happen.....no.
One day, hunting will be gone, for "Mr. Whitey 1st"
Once that happens, than there will be a push for FN to lose that right as well.
Come on...we are "civilized" and "ever evolving".....no need to hunt one day!
No longer is being a Vegetarian the in thing....
Being Vegan is the new world of the future......you won't get cancer, and if you really care about the environment,
not just here, but on the planet....you too, will become Vegan.
Anyways, my point was this, to stop racism/discrimination, you have to have one law for all, rich or poor, black or white.
If not, these problems will exists, become someone says...."hey, I'm different".
I never said 1 FN is like the next FN, just like 1 hunter isn't like the next.

If there is one common interest between FN and RH (remember, OP is about FN saying no moose)
Is that we want to see more Game in the Back country.....that's it....that part of the equation is simple.
But, finger pointing by the FN isn't getting any support by me, especially when they go out there..."Unregulated"!

To be honest, I think the ministry should stop wasting money on "Wildlife Transplants"
Remember, FN don't pay Taxes, so they don't pay for these type of expenditures.....we do.
But, we don't get to hunt the fruits of our labor/cash.....
FN get's to 1st!...
Anyways, the whole situation leaves me.......not laughing....but you go right ahead.

[Rob Chipman]

You don't like me laughing when someone says FNs have a sweetheart deal? Seriously? Would you exchange places with a random FN guy? If you would, you're a rarity. On all sorts of measures Indians come out worse than the general population, and looking out my window it doesn't seem hard to figure out why. So let's be clear: I'm laughing when I hear people say that FNs have it better than white guys. I doubt many would trade places. And I'm not pointing directly at you. If you thought I was, apology offered.

Aside from that I think we probably agree on quite a bit. One law for all would be optimum (I think we both agree that isn't going to happen in our lifetimes. Too many people profit from the division). FN and RHs do have a common interest in more game. Unregulated hunting is and will continue to be a problem (at the very least you can't track what you don't count). Finger pointing by FNs at whitey, and vice versa, isn't a solution.

What is the solution? I don't have the specifics, but getting more people onside with hunting (whether they hunt or not) is a part of it. Getting more people to recognize that wildlife doesn't happen by accident is also a big part of it (look at how many people think that nature exists in a balance...not considering for a minute how much industry, agriculture and urbanization make an impact, or recognizing that if we didn't try to conserve wildlife it would be gone in a minute).

[Bugle M In]

You don't like me laughing when someone says FNs have a sweetheart deal? Seriously? Would you exchange places with a random FN guy? If you would, you're a rarity. On all sorts of measures Indians come out worse than the general population, and looking out my window it doesn't seem hard to figure out why. So let's be clear: I'm laughing when I hear people say that FNs have it better than white guys. I doubt many would trade places. And I'm not pointing directly at you. If you thought I was, apology offered.

Aside from that I think we probably agree on quite a bit. One law for all would be optimum (I think we both agree that isn't going to happen in our lifetimes. Too many people profit from the division). FN and RHs do have a common interest in more game. Unregulated hunting is and will continue to be a problem (at the very least you can't track what you don't count). Finger pointing by FNs at whitey, and vice versa, isn't a solution.

What is the solution? I don't have the specifics, but getting more people onside with hunting (whether they hunt or not) is a part of it. Getting more people to recognize that wildlife doesn't happen by accident is also a big part of it (look at how many people think that nature exists in a balance...not considering for a minute how much industry, agriculture and urbanization make an impact, or recognizing that if we didn't try to conserve wildlife it would be gone in a minute).

I agree, finger pointing isn't helping.
FN blaming Whities for decline of Ungulates (Moose), is utter BS these days.
Whities saying every FN shoots everything that walks, is not correct either.
Some FN and Whities acting like Poacher's......absolutely (might be a few other colours doing that as well:wink:)
Do most FN do monetarily better than Whities.....No.
But, if FN person is totally poor, they may want to knock at the Chief's door, and ask where all the money is.
Sounds familiar, Lots of whities asking Politician Whities where all the money went:p.
All I meant, is that when it comes to "my finances", I am closer to most of the FN's in the province (my problem).
That all being said....
If FN want to go down the road of pointing the finger at me (whitey hunter) for the reason
that all the wildlife has gone missing, out in the "public media forum"....they better be careful.
Yes, FN, have the support of most of the "bleeding hearts" in the province/country right now....but...
If I were to lose my right to hunt, or be so limited in the opportunity or size of area to hunt within,
that it no longer made sense to even attempt, and was forced to hang up the rifle (legally...).
Than, at that point, I would be standing there along with P.E.T.A (holy s***, did I just say that?),
holding up signs, saying FN should not be hurting animals either...yada yada yada.
How ironic, no longer would it be FN's holding up signs, screaming injustices, but rather Whitey:shock:.
Difference is, I would be joining together with a larger group....against them!
So, FN and RH should stand united...agreed, but...FN have a good thing going right now, and they can't see
what blaming us RH's right now, could implode back on them one day.....we all eventually will lose the right to hunt.
Call it the "Vegan Movement", and believe me, it is only starting to happen!
Other than that, one part of the puzzle is that we all (both FN and RH) need to know how many, what species and what
gender FN are taking (Poaching will always be a number we will never know).
But good luck obtaining that, BUT, "IT NEEDS TO BE IMPLEMENTED".
And than yes, there are so many other facet's to the problem.
More CO's and way more game checks at "all hours of the day"
God knows, it isn't to hard to poach animals if you want to, and never get caught.
30+years going to the EK, and between certain hours, never has there been a game check in operation!
I'm just fed up I suppose....rightfully so.
Yes, it is a privledge to be able to hunt....for sure.
But, I am old enough to have had "elders" who told me how great the oppurtunities were back then.
Now we contend with more and more "off limits private land",
and now, FN's saying..."can't drive in here any longer" and acting like they are "the law"...
Funny how that is, they don't believe in "our laws" but we have to "believe in their laws"....wow!
Believe me, I am trying to be respectful here and biting my tongue as I type.
But, yes one law for all is "dreaming", but, unless that one day turns into a vision, and than reality...
We and "Hunting" will become extinct, along with the Wildlife.
I know that the general public will never understand, nor believe, that we as hunter's "love our wildlife",
that it has nothing to do with "killing", as it has to do with "being one" with life itself.
But when the FN point fingers at RH for all the problems, they are not doing anyone, even themselves any
good....
FN just have it to good right now (not the average FN, monetarily speaking), but as far as
"I can do whatever I want"...they have that going right now.
Funny how money makes everyone "White".
I also agree, FN has the best platform to work together with to protect Wildlife, AND, our heritage to hunt.
RH would work with FN....do FN really want to work with RH??.....No, they want it all for themselves,
or, it sure looks that way right now to me.
I do feel sorry for the people of the future, who would like the same opportunities (or should I say....privileges),
that we share now, or better yet, of the past....as they won't exist......count on it.

[David Heitsman]

Recently a moose re-abundance committee has been formed from the various user groups including Indian participation. One of the priorities is to verify human harvest regionally and this would include Indian kills as well. These things take time but with all having a vested interest in creating more supply, I'm confidant that we will achieve full participation. This specie, while not as romantic as caribou or sheep is struggling but our wildlife authorities are aware of the issues surrounding the decline in moose numbers and are taking steps to properly enhance their population. Patience.

[markomoose]

Thanks for the input David H.Great to hear some positive input on the situation.I love hunting in the Chilcotin and it would be great to see numbers rise with everyone helping out and working together. Cheers Mark

[Spy]

Thanks for the input David H.Great to hear some positive input on the situation.I love hunting in the Chilcotin and it would be great to see numbers rise with everyone helping out and working together. Cheers Mark
X2 would love to see this happen and everyone working together making more moose. I have purposely not put in draws for moose for the last 5 years and will not hunt them until the numbers rebound, I just don't think it's right to shoot animals that have super low numbers.

[Whonnock Boy]

There are areas that have populations that can sustain a harvest....


I have purposely not put in draws for moose for the last 5 years and will not hunt them until the numbers rebound, I just don't think it's right to shoot animals that have super low numbers.

[M.Dean]

Your right, Hitler made the same argument . Screw cultural and historical differences, we are all the same, as long as we get to establish the baseline. And just because your beating on the FN that's not racist, your really fighting for equality. Is that about right?
Just the usual nigger hating BS on this forum. They get to shoot more moose than me so I hate them. Really not a deep understanding of the issues. You know what, after reading your post here nelson, I think I just might go moose hunt'in in the morn'in cuz the government say's it's legal for me to shoot a moose! Hell, if you want one too just let me know, might as well gett'em before there all gone, Eh!!! Gidd'eee up Kemo Sabie!!!

[HarryToolips]

Recently a moose re-abundance committee has been formed from the various user groups including Indian participation. One of the priorities is to verify human harvest regionally and this would include Indian kills as well. These things take time but with all having a vested interest in creating more supply, I'm confidant that we will achieve full participation. This specie, while not as romantic as caribou or sheep is struggling but our wildlife authorities are aware of the issues surrounding the decline in moose numbers and are taking steps to properly enhance their population. Patience.
Good to hear, hope it happens..

[Spy]

There are areas that have populations that can sustain a harvest....
Probably are but those same areas are helping populate the areas that are barren of moose. we need to knock down the preds and create suitable habitat.We are not knocking down enough preds nor creating more habitat so me not shooting 5 moose has helped, in some way be it small..

[srupp]

It's OK. .your 5 moose were shot before Jan 15 2016..plus hundreds more cows calves bulls..day nite closed ares no reporting..
No way they will honestly report.nor limited to bulls..sorry David ain't gonna happen..
Sad

[Spy]

It's OK. .your 5 moose were shot before Jan 15 2016..plus hundreds more cows calves bulls..day nite closed ares no reporting..
No way they will honestly report.nor limited to bulls..sorry David ain't gonna happen..
Sad
I know that but why put more pressure on them? My families favorite table fair is moose, I love hunting them and loved my moose hunting trips. Maybe Im naive to think five moose could make a difference but if 1000 of us thought like me, we would maybe have 5000 more moose!

[Glassman]

Tell the indians to stop poaching and the numbers will go up

[Spy]

Tell the indians to stop poaching and the numbers will go up
They are not poaching they are shooting what they want when they want because there are no laws or courts in BC that will stop them from killing what they want. They are not educated in game management and they will not stop doing what they have for many years, until all the moose are gone then they will blame the white man. This is not a racist post just the truth.

[KURUSO16]

We need to stop buying sockeye @ $10 a fish, let them hunt by traditional methods (bow and arrow) on reserve, all game/fish taken must be consumed by F/N on reserves and be documented, let them have free education, tax free on necessities (not on smokes,tv's booze you get the point) be treated as equals live by the rules and be accountable to them as well. Hand ups not hand outs.

[Bugle M In]

We need to stop buying sockeye @ $10 a fish, let them hunt by traditional methods (bow and arrow) on reserve, all game/fish taken must be consumed by F/N on reserves and be documented, let them have free education, tax free on necessities (not on smokes,tv's booze you get the point) be treated as equals live by the rules and be accountable to them as well. Hand ups not hand outs.

I think many on here agree, that FN, should hunt in their "Traditional Ways", before White Settlers ever appeared.
Than I am all for them hunt 24/7 365.
Anything they buy that is not Traditional, and was created by "New Canadians" (let's say that way), they should have
to pay taxes on.
After All, FN always stated that their fight was to protect "Their Traditional Hertitage".
But hey, we did mess them up to.
We do have some responsibilities to help.
But, Maybe it's time to say....we have helped enough now....time to stand on your own 2 feet.
Every where else in the world....taxes are a part of life.
Want a truck, pay for the road.
They can always go back to horses...that's the "traditional way"

[Phreddy]

I think many on here agree, that FN, should hunt in their "Traditional Ways", before White Settlers ever appeared.
Than I am all for them hunt 24/7 365.
Anything they buy that is not Traditional, and was created by "New Canadians" (let's say that way), they should have
to pay taxes on.
After All, FN always stated that their fight was to protect "Their Traditional Hertitage".
But hey, we did mess them up to.
We do have some responsibilities to help.
But, Maybe it's time to say....we have helped enough now....time to stand on your own 2 feet.
Every where else in the world....taxes are a part of life.
Want a truck, pay for the road.
They can always go back to horses...that's the "traditional way"
Actually, horses were brought to North America by early european immigrants. There were not here until we appeared. I agree though that the time has come where enough is enough and the only way to help them is to stop finding ways to make them feel different through handouts. All these handouts are just keeping them dependant and removing any realistic ambitions. We are all here now and have been for some time. Time for us all to pull together or everyone on both sides of the equation is going to pay seriously as a result.

[edgar11]

Obviously you guys have still not educated yourselves as you are still saying "handouts" and "traditional" hunting in the wrong contexts.
If you are talking" welfare " as handouts then EVERYONE in Canada who does not have a job can get welfare regardless of the color of your skin. I for one have a job so I do not require "handouts". Secondly, contrary to popular belief, we do pay taxes when we are NOT on a reserve. This is the majority of the time. I pay property tax, sales tax, income tax and all that good stuff.
When we are talking "traditional" we are talking how the meat is used and not how it was acquired. The Provincial government uses the word "traditional" when it describes where we can hunt. Like they know where my "traditional" territory entails as they would need to know my family history. Having the population grow to what it is today makes it impossible to hunt as it was done over a hundred years ago. The abundance of animals is no longer there and the actual way to catch/kill your prey is irelevant to us. It only matters to some of you who wish you could hunt with the same rules handed down to us.
I know some of you say well "you get free dental, medical etc". It has diminished over the years and a lot of limitations have been brought in and there is little left to make it advantageous. I am lucky I have extended medical otherwise I would be hooped for a lot of things.
I have also heard of the free housing thing too. You are probably talking about social housing and again this is available to everyone too with little or no incomes. The reserve I come from has probably not built a house in like 30+ years.
So before you rant on about things you know very little about you should do just a little enquiring before you continue , otherwise, it just makes you look silly and uneducated. Just a suggestion to some fellow hunters.

[Bugle M In]

Well...how about some suggestions on the "scarce moose"....???

[Iltasyuko]

Obviously you guys have still not educated yourselves as you are still saying "handouts" and "traditional" hunting in the wrong contexts.
If you are talking" welfare " as handouts then EVERYONE in Canada who does not have a job can get welfare regardless of the color of your skin. I for one have a job so I do not require "handouts". Secondly, contrary to popular belief, we do pay taxes when we are NOT on a reserve. This is the majority of the time. I pay property tax, sales tax, income tax and all that good stuff.
When we are talking "traditional" we are talking how the meat is used and not how it was acquired. The Provincial government uses the word "traditional" when it describes where we can hunt. Like they know where my "traditional" territory entails as they would need to know my family history. Having the population grow to what it is today makes it impossible to hunt as it was done over a hundred years ago. The abundance of animals is no longer there and the actual way to catch/kill your prey is irelevant to us. It only matters to some of you who wish you could hunt with the same rules handed down to us.
I know some of you say well "you get free dental, medical etc". It has diminished over the years and a lot of limitations have been brought in and there is little left to make it advantageous. I am lucky I have extended medical otherwise I would be hooped for a lot of things.
I have also heard of the free housing thing too. You are probably talking about social housing and again this is available to everyone too with little or no incomes. The reserve I come from has probably not built a house in like 30+ years.
So before you rant on about things you know very little about you should do just a little enquiring before you continue , otherwise, it just makes you look silly and uneducated. Just a suggestion to some fellow hunters.

Thanks for the post. Seems clear to understand and I'll assume accurate. Also accurate is the fact that a nation built on divisive legislation will forever promote suspicion, ignorance, jealousy and inequalities. Humans are competitive by nature - legislating differences across populations only serves to promote the competitive 'us vs. them' human response. Helps explain why after decades of rhetoric about collaboration and working together to achieve common goals, we remain no further ahead. This is the world we've designed - it's supported by law and apparently won't be changing.

[edgar11]

Well...how about some suggestions on the "scarce moose"....???

So the government regulates to a point but why not work in partnership with FN all along? Ask yourself that. Why do they work with FN regarding fish but not with other wildlife? Why not have education programs where people including FN can learn about conservation? They taught us a different language, a different religion and a different way of life but why not teach us conservation? Why? Because its not important to them. Does it make them money? Well the fishing industry does so they are a little involved in that and that has become very public. But who cares about a moose or a deer? Not the government. I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree and should be looking at ways to be in partnership with FN to conserve this resource we all find valuable. I am sure MOST FN would agree and you would find very few who would disagree in working together towards conservation. But, as long as we continue to fight amongst each other, why would the government care? Nobody points the finger at them so they are golden.

[Wild one]

So the government regulates to a point but why not work in partnership with FN all along? Ask yourself that. Why do they work with FN regarding fish but not with other wildlife? Why not have education programs where people including FN can learn about conservation? They taught us a different language, a different religion and a different way of life but why not teach us conservation? Why? Because its not important to them. Does it make them money? Well the fishing industry does so they are a little involved in that and that has become very public. But who cares about a moose or a deer? Not the government. I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree and should be looking at ways to be in partnership with FN to conserve this resource we all find valuable. I am sure MOST FN would agree and you would find very few who would disagree in working together towards conservation. But, as long as we continue to fight amongst each other, why would the government care? Nobody points the finger at them so they are golden.

In my opinion this post has more logic than many would like to admit

The hardest part of this is to get both sides to stop pointing fingers at each other.

[Spy]

So the government regulates to a point but why not work in partnership with FN all along? Ask yourself that. Why do they work with FN regarding fish but not with other wildlife? Why not have education programs where people including FN can learn about conservation? They taught us a different language, a different religion and a different way of life but why not teach us conservation? Why? Because its not important to them. Does it make them money? Well the fishing industry does so they are a little involved in that and that has become very public. But who cares about a moose or a deer? Not the government. I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree and should be looking at ways to be in partnership with FN to conserve this resource we all find valuable. I am sure MOST FN would agree and you would find very few who would disagree in working together towards conservation. But, as long as we continue to fight amongst each other, why would the government care? Nobody points the finger at them so they are golden.
Good post I like the ideas, I think you will find many would like the idea of working together and follow the same laws.

[Rob Chipman]

As Edgar said..."Because its not important to them.". He hit the nail on the head. It's worth working with FNs on this. Really can't hurt.

[Phreddy]

Good post I like the ideas, I think you will find many would like the idea of working together and follow the same laws.
That's the key. Working together under the same laws. When you see whole families of moose, etc., legally wiped out year around, it's obviously a fixed game.

[edgar11]

That's the key. Working together under the same laws. When you see whole families of moose, etc., legally wiped out year around, it's obviously a fixed game.

We all follow the same laws Phreddy, its called Canadian Law. You cannot paint EVERYBODY with the same brush because that's not how the world works. If I cannot work, I can collect Welfare or U.I. if I have paid into it. If I am a minor I cannot go in to a bar. If I am a minor and I kill someone I may not get a life sentence. If I am not a Moslim, I am not allowed in a Mosque.
Yes there are abusers as you speak of but with one of those people there are ten others who see this very wrong. All needs to be put in perspective.

[Spy]

That's the key. Working together under the same laws. When you see whole families of moose, etc., legally wiped out year around, it's obviously a fixed game.
Maybe it is as simple as educating the hunters in conservation and game management, like Ed said ? Who knows ? It's worth the time, effort & money too invest in education. Maybe something the BCWF can get on board with. What we are doing now obviously is not working. Hell I would volenteer my time if it meant we all start working together :-)

[Spy]

We all follow the same laws Phreddy, its called Canadian Law. You cannot paint EVERYBODY with the same brush because that's not how the world works. If I cannot work, I can collect Welfare or U.I. if I have paid into it. If I am a minor I cannot go in to a bar. If I am a minor and I kill someone I may not get a life sentence. If I am not a Moslim, I am not allowed in a Mosque.
Yes there are abusers as you speak of but with one of those people there are ten others who see this very wrong. All needs to be put in perspective.
Edgar you are right and wrong, there are certain hunting rights that are afforded natives and not resident hunters which I think causes resentment.

[Dannybuoy]

Obviously you guys have still not educated yourselves as you are still saying "handouts" and "traditional" hunting in the wrong contexts.
If you are talking" welfare " as handouts then EVERYONE in Canada who does not have a job can get welfare regardless of the color of your skin. I for one have a job so I do not require "handouts". Secondly, contrary to popular belief, we do pay taxes when we are NOT on a reserve. This is the majority of the time. I pay property tax, sales tax, income tax and all that good stuff.
When we are talking "traditional" we are talking how the meat is used and not how it was acquired. The Provincial government uses the word "traditional" when it describes where we can hunt. Like they know where my "traditional" territory entails as they would need to know my family history. Having the population grow to what it is today makes it impossible to hunt as it was done over a hundred years ago. The abundance of animals is no longer there and the actual way to catch/kill your prey is irelevant to us. It only matters to some of you who wish you could hunt with the same rules handed down to us.
I know some of you say well "you get free dental, medical etc". It has diminished over the years and a lot of limitations have been brought in and there is little left to make it advantageous. I am lucky I have extended medical otherwise I would be hooped for a lot of things.
I have also heard of the free housing thing too. You are probably talking about social housing and again this is available to everyone too with little or no incomes. The reserve I come from has probably not built a house in like 30+ years.
So before you rant on about things you know very little about you should do just a little enquiring before you continue , otherwise, it just makes you look silly and uneducated. Just a suggestion to some fellow hunters.

I'd like to nominate this post for the" fiction of the year award " either Edgar doesn't have clue or is a s*hit disturber either way its too bad some actually believe this bs .

[Spy]

I'd like to nominate this post for the" fiction of the year award " either Edgar doesn't have clue or is a s*hit disturber either way its too bad some actually believe this bs .
It's not all bs and there are many valid points & lots too work with in what he said. The same old same old Bs just ain't working, so let's find what's going too work and make it happen.

[358mag]

I'd like to nominate this post for the" fiction of the year award " either Edgar doesn't have clue or is a s*hit disturber either way its too bad some actually believe this bs .
"Whoever is declared the biggest victim gets to be the biggest bully "

[BgBlkDg]

I'd like to nominate this post for the" fiction of the year award " either Edgar doesn't have clue or is a s*hit disturber either way its too bad some actually believe this bs .

It's the same old "indian" BS that we have heard for decades and it is both offensive and socially unjust.

Special "rights" for one minority, well, NO THANKS, either equality for all or let's base hunting on WHO invented the technology that all hunters use today. Then, you want "aboriginal" whatever, fine, use YOUR Neolithic technology and NOT our rifles, scopes, quads, trucks and on and on.

It damned well DOES matter how the meat is acquired and it is TIME that we had governments with the balls to stop this charade.

[Bugle M In]

Edgar,
That was my point.
No, no all FN are the same.
Nor are all whities the same.
Non hunters classify all hunters at times as poachers and killers, with no respect for wildlife etc etc.
If "some" FN are going to blame whitey for no moose....watch out....I won't stand for that bs any longer.
Example,
1 weekend up around Cache Creek, I spoke with an FN gentleman, who was the "chief police?" for this particular band.
He was very pleasant, gave me advice on where to hunt in the area etc.
I asked him how he had made out so far this year.....he said he had already taken 4 Mule Bucks.
(Heck, I'm only allowed 3 thru out the province in a year.)
So whatever.....but.....than late in the afternoon, I ran into another FN.
I won't get into details, but I was taking photo's of some Does.
Anyways, we started talking after he made the comment about blasting that doe right thru the eyes, if she didn't move soon.
After a short time, he tells me he has already taken "20" deer this season!!!
Now, do all FN talk this way....no.
Do some whities talk this way....ya.
Do all FN shoot 20 deer a year??
Probably not.....but do we know how many the FN take......NO.
Poaching is poaching, doesn't matter what color the skin, and will always be hard to control or know how much
wildlife is taken illegally.
But, in this day and age, there should be no one "allowed to not report" how much game, of what species, gender and age,
they take, and be "legal to not report".
It's way past time!
World is too small, and the wild west and doing whatever is long gone......
Like it or not, tradition has to change with the times.

[Jack Russell]

In my opinion this post has more logic than many would like to admit

The hardest part of this is to get both sides to stop pointing fingers at each other.

The hardest part is trust.

[Phreddy]

That's hitting the nail right on the head Bugle M. Over the 60 years I've hunted I've run into so many of those situations it turns my stomach. I don't really give a crap whose ancestors were here first. That was many generations ago. We're all here now and we better damned well start working together or the muslims will fix it all in a way we will like even less. Time to level the playing field.

That was my point.
No, no all FN are the same.
Nor are all whities the same.
Non hunters classify all hunters at times as poachers and killers, with no respect for wildlife etc etc.
If "some" FN are going to blame whitey for no moose....watch out....I won't stand for that bs any longer.
Example,
1 weekend up around Cache Creek, I spoke with an FN gentleman, who was the "chief police?" for this particular band.
He was very pleasant, gave me advice on where to hunt in the area etc.
I asked him how he had made out so far this year.....he said he had already taken 4 Mule Bucks.
(Heck, I'm only allowed 3 thru out the province in a year.)
So whatever.....but.....than late in the afternoon, I ran into another FN.
I won't get into details, but I was taking photo's of some Does.
Anyways, we started talking after he made the comment about blasting that doe right thru the eyes, if she didn't move soon.
After a short time, he tells me he has already taken "20" deer this season!!!
Now, do all FN talk this way....no.
Do some whities talk this way....ya.
Do all FN shoot 20 deer a year??
Probably not.....but do we know how many the FN take......NO.
Poaching is poaching, doesn't matter what color the skin, and will always be hard to control or know how much
wildlife is taken illegally.
But, in this day and age, there should be no one "allowed to not report" how much game, of what species, gender and age,
they take, and be "legal to not report".
It's way past time!
World is too small, and the wild west and doing whatever is long gone......
Like it or not, tradition has to change with the times.[/QUOTE]

[BgBlkDg]

Edgar,
That was my point.
No, no all FN are the same.
Nor are all whities the same.
Non hunters classify all hunters at times as poachers and killers, with no respect for wildlife etc etc.
If "some" FN are going to blame whitey for no moose....watch out....I won't stand for that bs any longer.
Example,
1 weekend up around Cache Creek, I spoke with an FN gentleman, who was the "chief police?" for this particular band.
He was very pleasant, gave me advice on where to hunt in the area etc.
I asked him how he had made out so far this year.....he said he had already taken 4 Mule Bucks.
(Heck, I'm only allowed 3 thru out the province in a year.)
So whatever.....but.....than late in the afternoon, I ran into another FN.
I won't get into details, but I was taking photo's of some Does.
Anyways, we started talking after he made the comment about blasting that doe right thru the eyes, if she didn't move soon.
After a short time, he tells me he has already taken "20" deer this season!!!
Now, do all FN talk this way....no.
Do some whities talk this way....ya.
Do all FN shoot 20 deer a year??
Probably not.....but do we know how many the FN take......NO.
Poaching is poaching, doesn't matter what color the skin, and will always be hard to control or know how much
wildlife is taken illegally.
But, in this day and age, there should be no one "allowed to not report" how much game, of what species, gender and age,
they take, and be "legal to not report".
It's way past time!
World is too small, and the wild west and doing whatever is long gone......
Like it or not, tradition has to change with the times.

I take strong exception to the use of terms such as "whities" to refer to we Canadians of non-aboriginal ancestry. I would expect that if I may not use our traditional terms of reference for aboriginals such as "buck" and "squaw" as I have been informed by Gates, etc, then the racist term "whities" is also not acceptable........

If, some aboriginal calls me a "whitie", well, what can I say, I might have to use MY traditional, cultural response to such offensive behaviour and limber up my ancestral "bearded axe"......... ;)

[Bobfl]

edgar11
you make very good points and I praise you coming forward. The whiteman paints all FN with the same brush and if we all work together ,I am sure we can come to a sensible solution, I being white however do disagree with FN shooting cows in OCT forward as the bulls have fought there asses off to breed these animals to be shot by an inconsiderate idiot with a gun because he can. This is the renewable resource that is non renewable when you kill the productive animals. It was just recently a native took 7 animals to the butcher, I do disagree when these animals are females. Is it too little too late, seems not when cows are still slaughtered at an alarming rate. The nations need to manage it's people as the gov does us.

[edgar11]

I'd like to nominate this post for the" fiction of the year award " either Edgar doesn't have clue or is a s*hit disturber either way its too bad some actually believe this bs .

Well if you can prove me wrong then go right ahead. If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem.

[edgar11]

Edgar you are right and wrong, there are certain hunting rights that are afforded natives and not resident hunters which I think causes resentment.

Yes you are right, BUT, who made those rules? The Natives? Like I said we all have to follow the same rules no matter how much we may dislike them. Some benefit us and some don't.

[edgar11]

"Whoever is declared the biggest victim gets to be the biggest bully "

I am not claiming "victim" there bud. Just stating facts to some of you who haven't a clue. Take it or leave it I don't care. :-D

[edgar11]

It's the same old "indian" BS that we have heard for decades and it is both offensive and socially unjust.

Special "rights" for one minority, well, NO THANKS, either equality for all or let's base hunting on WHO invented the technology that all hunters use today. Then, you want "aboriginal" whatever, fine, use YOUR Neolithic technology and NOT our rifles, scopes, quads, trucks and on and on.

It damned well DOES matter how the meat is acquired and it is TIME that we had governments with the balls to stop this charade.

Went right over your head hey Dog? If you want to hate then fine but use facts and just don't ramble on about things you have no idea about cause it just makes you look silly. I get it you feel "unjust", try losing your language,religion, children, parents etc. and lets just see how "unjust" you feel. I am not using that as a crutch I am just simply stating facts about history.

[edgar11]

Edgar,
That was my point.
No, no all FN are the same.
Nor are all whities the same.
Non hunters classify all hunters at times as poachers and killers, with no respect for wildlife etc etc.
If "some" FN are going to blame whitey for no moose....watch out....I won't stand for that bs any longer.
Example,
1 weekend up around Cache Creek, I spoke with an FN gentleman, who was the "chief police?" for this particular band.
He was very pleasant, gave me advice on where to hunt in the area etc.
I asked him how he had made out so far this year.....he said he had already taken 4 Mule Bucks.
(Heck, I'm only allowed 3 thru out the province in a year.)
So whatever.....but.....than late in the afternoon, I ran into another FN.
I won't get into details, but I was taking photo's of some Does.
Anyways, we started talking after he made the comment about blasting that doe right thru the eyes, if she didn't move soon.
After a short time, he tells me he has already taken "20" deer this season!!!
Now, do all FN talk this way....no.
Do some whities talk this way....ya.
Do all FN shoot 20 deer a year??
Probably not.....but do we know how many the FN take......NO.
Poaching is poaching, doesn't matter what color the skin, and will always be hard to control or know how much
wildlife is taken illegally.
But, in this day and age, there should be no one "allowed to not report" how much game, of what species, gender and age,
they take, and be "legal to not report".
It's way past time!
World is too small, and the wild west and doing whatever is long gone......
Like it or not, tradition has to change with the times.

Your exactly right Bugle we are talking about SOME of FN people doing what you are saying I am not denying that, but if we are to look at the problem what is the underlying issue? If there were no police to ticket us for speeding, how many would obey the speed limits? Why do some have to report when they take game and some do not? That does not make sense. Of course those who do not have to report are going to take advantage of that.
The other problem is that some of the FN people have lost their culture and heritage and have no idea how important the lives of animals such as Deer and Moose are. Their Elders were busy living in Residential Schools and also their parents etc. etc. etc. which has turned into this vicious cycle.
This has slowly been changing but there are still those out there that are lost and do not have their culture or heritage to guide them. Still some are heavily into drugs and alcohol. But, there are some like myself who have my culture and teachings and I know better then to treat animals like they are nothing. The Elders say it will take seven generations to right things that were messed up. That's a long time and we still have a long way to go.

[Bugle M In]

Edgar,

I come from a European Ancestry that lost "lots" over the centuries.
In the end, people have to move on.
I understand that there were injustices at a time, but, FN weren't the only ones to have stuff like that
happen to them.
As for "Traditional", let's face it, the way FN hunt today, is way off from the "old days" (trucks, rifles etc).
Who ever made the laws for FN to hunt "Traditionally", obviously didn't foresee what is happening today.
Regardless, this shouldn't be new news to you.

I respect what you had to say, and am not going to go down the road of continual argument, nor doI wont you
to have to go on the defensive in this thread.

What I would like to see, is a solution to some of the ongoing problems when it comes to the wildlife thru out BC.
Moose disappearing isn't, IMO, due to Resident Hunters.

Yes, there are tons of contributing factors to why they are missing.
And, If studies were done to find out what those main factors are, it wouldn't be completely accurate.
What good is a study, if you don't have all the facts.
One factor that is uncertain, is, how much game to FN harvest in a year....etc...etc.
Like a computer...garbage in...garbage out.

It's long past due (as I've stated before), to not know what FN harvest on a yearly basis.
If we don't change stuff really soon, we all are going to loose opportunities.
Granted, it will be Resident Hunters first.
And, "what do you think Resident Hunters will be thinking and saying" when that happens.
There will even be more anger and mistrust pointed at the FN, while they are out there still hunting "traditionally".
I was born here, this is the "only lands" I know as well.
And there are others who have had many generations as well here....it is the only place they know.
Remember, we "All" like to hunt, that is one thing we have in common.
And to hunt, we need the Moose etc to be there.

We all know the FN right now carry a lot of weight in the political forum.
It would be in the interest of both parties to join together.
But, I don't think that will happen.
Why, because there is different rules/status for one group over the other, and in the end, that special designation, will
get in the way.
Even this thread is a good example of the main problem.
Different rules for one group causes strife and fighting.
If we were all in the same boat, with the same rules........I ask you this then....
Who would we be bitchin at right now if we were standing together???

[BgBlkDg]

"my culture" and yet you also claim that you suffered from "cultural genocide" and then that YOU know all about "history". Seems like "speaking with a forked tongue" to me, eh........

If, you would care to meet me and debate in person or attempt to insult my historical erudition, I would be more than happy to engage you in discussion, debate or any other activity you prefer, at any time convenient.

Your typical whining and self indulgent bullsh*t is the REAL problem in contemporary Canada, and the nonsense concerning "residential schools" is a cheap excuse for the inadequacies of your ilk. Get real and realize how lucky YOU ARE that we have treated you so well; perhaps, you might research the slaughters, enslavement and cannibalism of pre-European settlement and how aborigines in the USA and Australia, were dealt with.

[bearvalley]

If we were all in the same boat, with the same rules........I ask you this then....
Who would we be bitchin at right now if we were standing together???

Bureaucrats....and they might have to listen.

[Wild one]

Bureaucrats....and they might have to listen.

This is the main reason hunters need to start opening conversation with FN. Yes it would be nice if we all had the same rules for hunting but this will never change fast enough to address the moose problem.

like it or not hunters stand a greater chance of getting results on this trying to work with FN than fighting them. It is plain to see they have more pull with govt than hunters

what is the worst that could come from attempting to work something out with FN. Really at the worst they will not listen or tell hunters to pound sand and things stay the same

Really nothing to loose attempting this

[Spy]

This is the main reason hunters need to start opening conversation with FN. Yes it would be nice if we all had the same rules for hunting but this will never change fast enough to address the moose problem.

like it or not hunters stand a greater chance of getting results on this trying to work with FN than fighting them. It is plain to see they have more pull with govt than hunters


what is the worst that could come from attempting to work something out with FN. Really at the worst they will not listen or tell hunters to pound sand and things stay the same

Really nothing to loose attempting this
X2 It is worth trying, sounds like there is much agreement on working together.

[edgar11]

Edgar,

I come from a European Ancestry that lost "lots" over the centuries.
In the end, people have to move on.
I understand that there were injustices at a time, but, FN weren't the only ones to have stuff like that
happen to them.
As for "Traditional", let's face it, the way FN hunt today, is way off from the "old days" (trucks, rifles etc).
Who ever made the laws for FN to hunt "Traditionally", obviously didn't foresee what is happening today.
Regardless, this shouldn't be new news to you.

I respect what you had to say, and am not going to go down the road of continual argument, nor doI wont you
to have to go on the defensive in this thread.

What I would like to see, is a solution to some of the ongoing problems when it comes to the wildlife thru out BC.
Moose disappearing isn't, IMO, due to Resident Hunters.

Yes, there are tons of contributing factors to why they are missing.
And, If studies were done to find out what those main factors are, it wouldn't be completely accurate.
What good is a study, if you don't have all the facts.
One factor that is uncertain, is, how much game to FN harvest in a year....etc...etc.
Like a computer...garbage in...garbage out.

It's long past due (as I've stated before), to not know what FN harvest on a yearly basis.
If we don't change stuff really soon, we all are going to loose opportunities.
Granted, it will be Resident Hunters first.
And, "what do you think Resident Hunters will be thinking and saying" when that happens.
There will even be more anger and mistrust pointed at the FN, while they are out there still hunting "traditionally".
I was born here, this is the "only lands" I know as well.
And there are others who have had many generations as well here....it is the only place they know.
Remember, we "All" like to hunt, that is one thing we have in common.
And to hunt, we need the Moose etc to be there.

We all know the FN right now carry a lot of weight in the political forum.
It would be in the interest of both parties to join together.
But, I don't think that will happen.
Why, because there is different rules/status for one group over the other, and in the end, that special designation, will
get in the way.
Even this thread is a good example of the main problem.
Different rules for one group causes strife and fighting.
If we were all in the same boat, with the same rules........I ask you this then....
Who would we be bitchin at right now if we were standing together???

The problem with the "moving on" part of the argument is how can you do that when you do not know how. Remember some people lost everything including how to be parents and generations went without teachings from their Elders. There are actually some who have "moved on" such as myself who have become totally self sufficient and the only thing I want from the government is that they allow me and my family to be allowed to continue to live with our own Culture and Heritage. No handouts and no special treatment other then like I said be able to practice our traditions.
As far as "traditionally" I am talking about needing things such as deer meat and moose to utilize for Ceremonies we currently practice today. Also the hides are used for drums and hoofs are used for ceremony practices as well the hides. Prayers are done for the animal before and after the kill and it is treated with respect once its life is taken. This is the meaning of "traditional" and not the more well known "TV version" of hunting with a bow and arrow etc. etc.
I really think education plays a big part and the governments willingness to change things for the better are paramount. There are many reasons for the decline in moose and I don't think its just this, or just that , there are a multitude of problems.

[Rob Chipman]

I'm glad Edgar has chimed in on this. He's two things that should matter to us. He's FN, and he's a member of our hunting community. Let's not forget that. We've got areal good example just across the line about what happens when a community starts going after each other - a unity of purpose is exchanged for an internal fight and the results are worse for all members.

There should be one law for all people, because all people are equal. However, the fact is that we live in a country with different laws for different people. Whites don't have the same rights as FNs. Just so we all are on the same page with that, the laws that give FNs different rights from white people were made by....white people. The process started, effectively, with white people from England making deals and rules that would effect non-English people centuries later (not the first time or place we've seen that. Call it the law of unintended consequences).

The result for us hunters today is that there are two standards - one for FNs and one for non-FNs (not all of whom are white; it must be making some Asian hunters on this forum, for example, chuckle or roll their eyes when the hunting world is split into whitey and FNs!)

Where does this double standard really bite us in the ass right now, today? Access and harvest count.

Access:

FNs who want to claim and then exercise their claim to traditional territory can, have and will continue from time to time to restrict access to areas that they consider their traditional territory. You may say that's right or wrong, but if I have no problem imagining myself as an FN saying "This is my territory, and if you're going to be what I consider an asshole I might just decide to pay you back by telling you that you can't come in here".

I could do that by blockading a road, or grabbing a gun and threatening people, which would work for a bit but would, on it's own, end up not working that well (Gustafson Lake?).

I could also become pretty militant about my demands but also enlist allies among the non-FN community in the form of lawyers (paid, in the end, largely by tax dollars) non-lawyer activists who act for no pay, or rich guys who start foundations that align to one degree or another with FNs' desire for territorial and political autonomy. I think we all know that FNs have alliances with lawyers, anti-resource extraction NGOs, and others. As it stands right now those alliances don't bode well for hunters.

Access issues are going to become an increasing threat. Hunting regs are provincial. Supreme Court of Canada rulings over-rule provincial regs. Anyone out there get an LEH in the area awarded to the Tsilqotin? Tough shit, right?

Raincoast, and others, say that science is not the metric to justify a grizzly hunt. They say grizzlies are unbelievably important to FN culture, etc. etc. I'm a sourpuss and a cynic, so I can easily see Raincoast becoming successful in getting increased control of the central coast turned over to FNs, and then, once that's happened, see some FNs tell Raincoast to screw off and start selling grizzly hunts to the highest bidder, regardless of provincial regs. I also doubt that Raincoast would really care, as I don't think grizzly conservation is their aim.

In other words, the LEH access loss that some experienced as a result of the Tsilqotin decision is not, as things stand now, going to be the last. Again, putting my imagination to work, I can easily imagine myself as a Tsleil-Waututh member working to completely eliminate access to the Indian River watershed.

Is this access restriction right? No. Is history full of examples of unfair treatment that isn't reversed just because it isn't right? Um, yeah.

If we wait around and let it happen to us it will be worse than if we build alliances and try to control and negotiate the outcomes.

Harvest count:

You can't manage what you don't count. We don't count most wildlife as much as we should, regardless of FN harvest issues, so we've got work on that front to accomplish. As Edgar mentioned, moose numbers are not really important to the provincial government. (They may be important to some provincial government employees, but they don't keep Christy Clarke or John Horgan up at night).

That fact recognized, FN harvest has to be counted properly.

How does anyone propose to do that without bringing FNs onside? I'm all ears.

So, what if we count the FN harvest and find out it isn't sustainable? What if we find out that the absence of moose in the Chilcotin is completely the fault of widespread unregulated out of control FN hunting? Does anyone think that JT and the Feds will stop it? Does anyone think that the province will stop it?

As Edgar suggested, there is perhaps less understanding and appreciation of conservation and it's importance among some members of the FN community. Let's remember, though, that this forum is populated by a community with a much better understanding of conservation and wildlife than the general public (if you want, read that as "whitey"). If we think there's a need to educate some FNs about conservation we better also admit that there's a great need to do the same to everyone else inside the borders of this magnificent province.

I suggest that success on access and harvest count will be better achieved by working with FNs than it will be by bitching about how they've got a wicked deal that isn't fair.

Chief Joe Alphonse has indicated several times over the years that he's concerned about moose. He was involved with a threat to blockade resident hunters and pretty much ended up saying "Hey, it took the threat to get any action at all" and then they didn't blockade. There are only two possibilities: he's lying about his concern about moose, or he's telling the truth. If he's telling the truth he's on the same side as us, at least as far as moose populations go. How does it make sense to start arguing with a guy who's on the same side as us?

And Edgar? As mentioned, he's not only on the same side as us, he is us!

Bottom line, if we want more moose, more deer, more elk....more game in general, and if we want assured access, we need to build bridges with FNs. The alternative to building bridges is to have a fight, and since we, as hunters, are such a small minority and since we're outnumbered by members of the non-FN community who will side with FNs over hunters on many, many issues, we'll loose the fight.

Whether you personally like it or not, whether you personally think it's fair or not, that's the world we live in. Think it's crazy? It isn't 1/10th as crazy as stuff you see happen every single day outside the FN and hunting world.

[edgar11]

"my culture" and yet you also claim that you suffered from "cultural genocide" and then that YOU know all about "history". Seems like "speaking with a forked tongue" to me, eh........

If, you would care to meet me and debate in person or attempt to insult my historical erudition, I would be more than happy to engage you in discussion, debate or any other activity you prefer, at any time convenient.

Your typical whining and self indulgent bullsh*t is the REAL problem in contemporary Canada, and the nonsense concerning "residential schools" is a cheap excuse for the inadequacies of your ilk. Get real and realize how lucky YOU ARE that we have treated you so well; perhaps, you might research the slaughters, enslavement and cannibalism of pre-European settlement and how aborigines in the USA and Australia, were dealt with.

Dude your a "hater" plain and simple. My only interactions with you have ended in you threatening me. Shall I publish the PM you sent me awhile back? I would accept you on your offer but its been a very long time since I attended elementary school so I might have forgotten how it works.

[BgBlkDg]

Publish whatever you wish, I am NOT intimidated, threatened by and will NEVER kowtow to ANY actions by your kind and I consider you a pathetic phoney.

You think that you and your ilk will win, all 4.9% of you among the total population of Canada? You damned fool, the corporate elite and their political toadies are CONNING you so that they can circumvent the environmentalists who were WINNING in the battle to actually create a sustainable society here before all resources are gone and this vile campaign is working.

Let me be clear, so you can actually understand what I am saying. I do not "threaten" anyone, BUT, I DO NOT back down, WILL NEVER accept ANY "rights" for your kind, other than those of ALL Canadians, and, frankly, WE WILL WIN.

Sorry, if I scared you, but, fear not, I cannot be bothered to waste my time "threatening" and I prefer direct action when I consider it appropriate to protect MY culture.

I am pleased that you did attend elementary school, perhaps, you might consider attempting further education so that you may learn about factual history, rather than the drunken maunderings of some old "elder"......LMAO.

[Rob Chipman]

So, BgBlkDg, I gotta ask: what's your goal here? Conservation and more moose? Or changing the fact on the ground that there are different rights for different people in Canada? Pick one, and lay out how it gets accomplished in relation to the others, because realistically they're mutually exclusive.

And if its the third, do you think a guy with your viewpoint is going to sway the corporate elite, their political toadies, big city lawyers and environmentalists like the Sierra Club or Raincoast?

BTW, 97,000 / 4.63 million = a bigger or smaller percentage than 4.9%? Just sayin'

[edgar11]

Ha Ha your statement has absolutely no merit and it just makes you look foolish. Sorry you are giving yourself way too much credit if you think you are scaring me. Sorry but you cannot WIN no matter how much you wish that to be true. And exactly what is "my kind"? Do you not know how obvious that statement is in explaining your character makeup?
The only thing I can do for you is pray for you which I will. I can only imagine what kind of life a person would have had lived to have that much hatred for an entire race for no real particular reason.

[BgBlkDg]

So, BgBlkDg, I gotta ask: what's your goal here?

I think that is quite obvious.

BTW, 97,000 / 4.63 million = a bigger or smaller percentage than 4.9%? Just sayin'

Please, READ what I actually wrote above, your example is not based on my comment.

[Rob Chipman]

97,000 hunters in BC. 4.6 million pop. Smaller percentage than aboriginals. When you point out that the FNs are outnumbered by non-FNs you've got a point. Except that FNs clearly outnumber hunters.

That ain't tough to figure out. My example is clearly based on your comment.

We (hunters) are a very small percentage of the general population and we do a thing that many of them don't understand and that many of them oppose.

The original question remains. I'm more interested in moose and conservation because I recognize that I'm not going to convince politicians to treat everyone equally (it's in their benefit to not do so). I think I can actually make some headway on conservation. I think we're more likely to make headway with conservation if we build bridges with the FNs and concentrate on conservation rather than fight with FN people who share our concerns because we don't like the system that we all live under (and which wasn't created by the FNs in any event, but by the group you seem to identify with).

What's more important to you? Making headway with conservation or fighting the good fight for equal rights?

[bearvalley]

I'm glad Edgar has chimed in on this. He's two things that should matter to us. He's FN, and he's a member of our hunting community. Let's not forget that. We've got areal good example just across the line about what happens when a community starts going after each other - a unity of purpose is exchanged for an internal fight and the results are worse for all members.

There should be one law for all people, because all people are equal. However, the fact is that we live in a country with different laws for different people. Whites don't have the same rights as FNs. Just so we all are on the same page with that, the laws that give FNs different rights from white people were made by....white people. The process started, effectively, with white people from England making deals and rules that would effect non-English people centuries later (not the first time or place we've seen that. Call it the law of unintended consequences).

The result for us hunters today is that there are two standards - one for FNs and one for non-FNs (not all of whom are white; it must be making some Asian hunters on this forum, for example, chuckle or roll their eyes when the hunting world is split into whitey and FNs!)

Where does this double standard really bite us in the ass right now, today? Access and harvest count.

Access:

FNs who want to claim and then exercise their claim to traditional territory can, have and will continue from time to time to restrict access to areas that they consider their traditional territory. You may say that's right or wrong, but if I have no problem imagining myself as an FN saying "This is my territory, and if you're going to be what I consider an asshole I might just decide to pay you back by telling you that you can't come in here".

I could do that by blockading a road, or grabbing a gun and threatening people, which would work for a bit but would, on it's own, end up not working that well (Gustafson Lake?).

I could also become pretty militant about my demands but also enlist allies among the non-FN community in the form of lawyers (paid, in the end, largely by tax dollars) non-lawyer activists who act for no pay, or rich guys who start foundations that align to one degree or another with FNs' desire for territorial and political autonomy. I think we all know that FNs have alliances with lawyers, anti-resource extraction NGOs, and others. As it stands right now those alliances don't bode well for hunters.

Access issues are going to become an increasing threat. Hunting regs are provincial. Supreme Court of Canada rulings over-rule provincial regs. Anyone out there get an LEH in the area awarded to the Tsilqotin? Tough shit, right?

Raincoast, and others, say that science is not the metric to justify a grizzly hunt. They say grizzlies are unbelievably important to FN culture, etc. etc. I'm a sourpuss and a cynic, so I can easily see Raincoast becoming successful in getting increased control of the central coast turned over to FNs, and then, once that's happened, see some FNs tell Raincoast to screw off and start selling grizzly hunts to the highest bidder, regardless of provincial regs. I also doubt that Raincoast would really care, as I don't think grizzly conservation is their aim.

In other words, the LEH access loss that some experienced as a result of the Tsilqotin decision is not, as things stand now, going to be the last. Again, putting my imagination to work, I can easily imagine myself as a Tsleil-Waututh member working to completely eliminate access to the Indian River watershed.

Is this access restriction right? No. Is history full of examples of unfair treatment that isn't reversed just because it isn't right? Um, yeah.

If we wait around and let it happen to us it will be worse than if we build alliances and try to control and negotiate the outcomes.

Harvest count:

You can't manage what you don't count. We don't count most wildlife as much as we should, regardless of FN harvest issues, so we've got work on that front to accomplish. As Edgar mentioned, moose numbers are not really important to the provincial government. (They may be important to some provincial government employees, but they don't keep Christy Clarke or John Horgan up at night).

That fact recognized, FN harvest has to be counted properly.

How does anyone propose to do that without bringing FNs onside? I'm all ears.

So, what if we count the FN harvest and find out it isn't sustainable? What if we find out that the absence of moose in the Chilcotin is completely the fault of widespread unregulated out of control FN hunting? Does anyone think that JT and the Feds will stop it? Does anyone think that the province will stop it?

As Edgar suggested, there is perhaps less understanding and appreciation of conservation and it's importance among some members of the FN community. Let's remember, though, that this forum is populated by a community with a much better understanding of conservation and wildlife than the general public (if you want, read that as "whitey"). If we think there's a need to educate some FNs about conservation we better also admit that there's a great need to do the same to everyone else inside the borders of this magnificent province.

I suggest that success on access and harvest count will be better achieved by working with FNs than it will be by bitching about how they've got a wicked deal that isn't fair.

Chief Joe Alphonse has indicated several times over the years that he's concerned about moose. He was involved with a threat to blockade resident hunters and pretty much ended up saying "Hey, it took the threat to get any action at all" and then they didn't blockade. There are only two possibilities: he's lying about his concern about moose, or he's telling the truth. If he's telling the truth he's on the same side as us, at least as far as moose populations go. How does it make sense to start arguing with a guy who's on the same side as us?

And Edgar? As mentioned, he's not only on the same side as us, he is us!

Bottom line, if we want more moose, more deer, more elk....more game in general, and if we want assured access, we need to build bridges with FNs. The alternative to building bridges is to have a fight, and since we, as hunters, are such a small minority and since we're outnumbered by members of the non-FN community who will side with FNs over hunters on many, many issues, we'll loose the fight.

Whether you personally like it or not, whether you personally think it's fair or not, that's the world we live in. Think it's crazy? It isn't 1/10th as crazy as stuff you see happen every single day outside the FN and hunting world.

Impressive post Rob.
It's clear that you've put some thought into this issue.

[BgBlkDg]

97,000 hunters in BC. 4.6 million pop. Smaller percentage than aboriginals. When you point out that the FNs are outnumbered by non-FNs you've got a point. Except that FNs clearly outnumber hunters.

That ain't tough to figure out. My example is clearly based on your comment.

We (hunters) are a very small percentage of the general population and we do a thing that many of them don't understand and that many of them oppose.

The original question remains. I'm more interested in moose and conservation because I recognize that I'm not going to convince politicians to treat everyone equally (it's in their benefit to not do so). I think I can actually make some headway on conservation. I think we're more likely to make headway with conservation if we build bridges with the FNs and concentrate on conservation rather than fight with FN people who share our concerns because we don't like the system that we all live under (and which wasn't created by the FNs in any event, but by the group you seem to identify with).

What's more important to you? Making headway with conservation or fighting the good fight for equal rights?

If, you READ what I posted, my reference to percentage was to the percentage of injuns in Canada'a population.....maybe spend less time trying to sound cool by sarcasm and more learning to read?

Now, very simply, I DO NOT accept the currently popular mantra of "rights" for these characters and have NO bloody intention of EVER assisting them to have ANY "authority" over my access to or uses of CROWN LAND, period.

If, some one or several of them attempt to blockade or attack me, well, I may go "ballistic".

In any event, this is a waste of time, the solution to the aboriginal problem in Canada, is to use the Canadian Armed Forces!

[Wild one]

I don't think we will be seeing a govt or enough public support to bring in the armed forces on FN

Do you have a feasible solution that will help with the moose issue

[kebes]

If, you READ what I posted, my reference to percentage was to the percentage of injuns in Canada'a population.....maybe spend less time trying to sound cool by sarcasm and more learning to read?

Now, very simply, I DO NOT accept the currently popular mantra of "rights" for these characters and have NO bloody intention of EVER assisting them to have ANY "authority" over my access to or uses of CROWN LAND, period.

If, some one or several of them attempt to blockade or attack me, well, I may go "ballistic".

In any event, this is a waste of time, the solution to the aboriginal problem in Canada, is to use the Canadian Armed Forces!

Use of pejorative labels adds absolutely nothing but animosity to an already charged situation. Unfortunately both groups (in this case Natives and Resident Hunters) have far too many bitter, angry individuals throwing wood on the fire rather than building bridges.

Not that we'll have to worry about seeing many more posts from you at this rate....

[BgBlkDg]

Really, how very amusing, but, as I posted, I am done with this as it will not, as usual, have any real influence on the longterm resolution of the problem. So, do try not to worry as it can induce stress-related hypertension.......

In any event, there is NO solution to the current contretemps as the elite powerbrokers in Canada, have largely CAUSED this, want to continue and for the reason I outlined above. The injuns will be bought off by giving them most hunting and fishing and then they will be quietly accepting of the further rape of OUR resources.

The rants here will go on and on and no real progress will be made. Eventually, a "white" Canadian or more will be killed at one of these blockades and then the CanForce squaddies will be called in and the result can only go one way.

Laugh if you want, but, this is exactly what the corporate elite want.

[Rob Chipman]

BgBlkDg

I got you the first time. If you can't keep up I'm not going to dumb it down for you. The questions are:

Do you want to pick your battles and actually fight one or just rant and rave about as many as possible and then admit that nothings going to change? I want to pick a battle, and the one I want to fight is conservation. It's possible to win and it'll pay off benefits to a bunch of people who think like me and share my values. It ain't perfect, but it's good and it's possible.

Are you more concerned with equal rights or with moose and conservation? (Feel free to pick equal rights. It's a very admirable goal).

If you're concerned with moose and conservation in a wider sense, do you really think that opposing FNs is more effective in getting accurate FN harvest counts and changing FN culture about conservation (which, let's give credit where credit is due, Edgar pointed out was required)?

I know you said you're done, but I'm asking some pretty simple questions. If you want to prove that I can't read and that you're smart, answer the questions so people know where you stand. There's no shame in choosing to be more concerned about equality than conservation, but put your cards on the table.

[BgBlkDg]

Sorry, but I might suggest attempting to improve your orotund and often misspelled posts and then perhaps I may be able to "keep up". You just make me laugh, I enjoy watching some "intellectual" attempt to sound erudite when he cannot write simple English correctly.......

I have little interest in, as I posted, attempting to correct this situation as the end result is so very obvious and it wlll come in the near future. Why, should I waste my remaining years in such a struggle when the "mills of God's justice grind slowly".....

Frankly, after 70 years of life in this "Vale of Tears", I have learned when to "hold 'em" and definitely "when to fold 'em", capiche?

TTFN.

[Rob Chipman]

You can suggest what you want and I'm happy I make you laugh.

You asked a question - "Why, should I waste my remaining years in such a struggle..."

My answer is this: if the struggle is conservation your efforts are valuable. If the struggle is for equality, then, again, your efforts are valuable. You may not see the results in your lifetime, but you're not a selfish guy, are you? Surely you can take some satisfaction from knowing that the seeds you plant today could well feed generations yet unborn?

You know what I'm trying to do to you. I want you to commit to either conservation or equality. If you want to commit to equality (and it's a good thing to commit to) you know what's coming next. I'll tell you to stop making a conservation struggle a struggle about human rights. If you commit to conservation I'll tell you to explain how marginalizing potential allies helps us. I hope that will get us on the same page.

Again, the equality fight is a good one, but I don't think we'll make a lot of progress there, (you've indicated that you share that feeling), and I want more people, including you, to commit to conservation. You don't need to fold 'em. I don't see this as a battle of wits, and if it is I don't care who wins it.

[Dannybuoy]

Sorry, but I might suggest attempting to improve your orotund and often misspelled posts and then perhaps I may be able to "keep up". You just make me laugh, I enjoy watching some "intellectual" attempt to sound erudite when he cannot write simple English correctly.......

I have little interest in, as I posted, attempting to correct this situation as the end result is so very obvious and it wlll come in the near future. Why, should I waste my remaining years in such a struggle when the "mills of God's justice grind slowly".....

Frankly, after 70 years of life in this "Vale of Tears", I have learned when to "hold 'em" and definitely "when to fold 'em", capiche?

TTFN.

It can smack them in the face and they still wont get it BgBlkDg ....
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?131862-Williams-Lake-city-being-claimed-by-indians