Forest Tenures/Private Forests

[slowjo]

hi everyone, as i'm sure there are alot of forum users that are part of the forestry industry here, i'd love to have some clarification and information about public use of private forest tenures. where i live in the west kootenays, there are a ton of gated forest areas with private property signs citing ownership by local logging companies. how did the individuals/companies come to 'own' these areas? why can they restrict access? it seems like very large areas are under the control of individuals. i can't even afford to buy a small plot of land to build a house, yet these individuals/companies have gated off thousands upon thousands of acres. in one case i know of, the logging company owners use the site like a private hunting area. they protect it from the public with great ferocity.
as you can see, i'm ignorant to the whole thing, it's hard to find info on the goverment sites.
thanks, can't wait to hear everyone's response.

[Whonnock Boy]

I have not heard of many mainland gates that are up just for a "private hunting area". PM me the gates, and their locations, and I can try and find an answer for you.

[Arctic Lake]

Slowjo and Whonnock Boy
Would like to know about this so if you find out something could you post it up in this thread
Thanks
Arctic Lake

[btridge]

In the Kootenays, the forest company's do own a lot of land that is private property. like all private property, the land owner has the right to say who can hunt on it. In other areas, large areas are crown land but the access road crosses private property. In many cases, the land owner maintains ownership of the road crossing their land and as such has the right to say who can use the road on their property.

[Fella]

Most of the South Island is private forests and hunters are persona non grata on most of em. Sucks how the government sold us out but it is what it is.

[slowjo]

In the Kootenays, the forest company's do own a lot of land that is private property. like all private property, the land owner has the right to say who can hunt on it. In other areas, large areas are crown land but the access road crosses private property. In many cases, the land owner maintains ownership of the road crossing their land and as such has the right to say who can use the road on their property.

how do the company's come to own these properties?

[goatdancer]

how do the company's come to own these properties?

Are you referring to the Darkwoods properties? They bought them many years ago.

[slowjo]

i don't believe darkwoods is owned by a logging company. maybe i'm wrong. there are areas adjacent to it though, that are owned by logging companies and public access is denied.
while we're on the topic, does anyone have links to information and the access restrictions/maps to the darkwoods properties?

[Squamch]

Most of the South Island is private forests and hunters are persona non grata on most of em. Sucks how the government sold us out but it is what it is.


The only time I've been hassled while behind gates has been when I've found people doing illegal stuff, drugs, liquor and guns type stuff generally.
I would agree that there are a lot of private hunting reserves for loggers and their buddies though!

[Dannybuoy]

i don't believe darkwoods is owned by a logging company. maybe i'm wrong. there are areas adjacent to it though, that are owned by logging companies and public access is denied.
while we're on the topic, does anyone have links to information and the access restrictions/maps to the darkwoods properties?

I didn't know much about these Darkwoods properties but a quick google http://www.crestonvalleyrodandgunclub.org/2013/01/darkwoods.html from a couple of years ago shows while it isn't quite "private" property ( Nature Conservancy of Canada ) It does have access and hunting restrictions .

[adriaticum]

One has to make some distinctions here.

Real private property - Someone bought and paid for the property and therefore they own it. They "always" bought it from another private individual or company.

Fake private property - Land tenures like (Pastures, forestry, mining claims). Not exactly private property but it's on rent from the government and these individuals/companies are going to do their best to:
1. Make everyone believe that it is real private property.
2. Buy up enough local government to have them assign/transfer this property and make it real private property.

This is happening all over BC and we are sleeping. Corbett lake is a prime example of how Merritt municipal officials were bought and paid for so that Corbett Lake lodge can claim that they own the lake.
And now there is no public access to the lake.
In 20 years old geezers (bless their soul) who remember fishing on that lake, will die and nobody will remember that this was a public lake once.
And the assumption that this is a private lake will remain.
In small communities it's even easier to get into politics for land gain. There are many examples of this where guys get into politics and suddenly they rezone, sell off, tons of land so their cousin's, brother's, nephew can buy it, or get it for free.

In case of real private property you can't do anything about it.
In case of fake private property you have pound on the doors of your municipal government and let them know you are watching.

[btridge]

I didn't know much about these Darkwoods properties but a quick google http://www.crestonvalleyrodandgunclub.org/2013/01/darkwoods.html from a couple of years ago shows while it isn't quite "private" property ( Nature Conservancy of Canada ) It does have access and hunting restrictions .
The Darkwoods property is REAL private property, it is deeded land that has only recently been taken over by the Nature Conservancy of Canada.

[J_T]

The West Kootenays was settled mostly through mining. From 1890 to 1957 a mining claim was first 'staked' by a prospector and then surveyed and a "Crown Grant" was issued to secure the land in the name of the prospector. This surveyed land, had the same status as a District Lot and was freehold title as it bestowed both surface ownership and subsurface ownership to the title holder. As mining has been exhausted or pushed aside by the NIMBY crowd, these Crown Grants are sold. Timber has value, therefore the Crown Grant retained value in the form of timber and the property was sold for the timber.

For the most part, these are not fake land owners. The owner of a CG has the right to treat it just like his private land, because it is.

Darkwoods was a German owned logging company, that was formed on the basis of the large property acquisition south of Nelson. As others have stated, recently sold to Nature Conservancy.

[adriaticum]

The West Kootenays was settled mostly through mining. From 1890 to 1957 a mining claim was first 'staked' by a prospector and then surveyed and a "Crown Grant" was issued to secure the land in the name of the prospector. This surveyed land, had the same status as a District Lot and was freehold title as it bestowed both surface ownership and subsurface ownership to the title holder. As mining has been exhausted or pushed aside by the NIMBY crowd, these Crown Grants are sold. Timber has value, therefore the Crown Grant retained value in the form of timber and the property was sold for the timber.

For the most part, these are not fake land owners. The owner of a CG has the right to treat it just like his private land, because it is.

Darkwoods was a German owned logging company, that was formed on the basis of the large property acquisition south of Nelson. As others have stated, recently sold to Nature Conservancy.



There was a time, long ago, when a man could stake a claim and become the rightful owner of that property. I'm guessing many have become landowners that way in your neck of the woods.
I would agree that they are not fake property owners.
But lately there is no concept of "staking your claim" and you have to get into politics if you want lots of land for nothing or have lots of money to buy it.
But no self respecting citizen would pay millions for land if they can spend thousands on a government official and get the same result.

[Dannybuoy]

The Darkwoods property is REAL private property, it is deeded land that has only recently been taken over by the Nature Conservancy of Canada.

Yes I understood that it was private property until recently sold to the NCC

[slowjo]

there are some fascinating replies here. thanks so much for responding. i am starting to understand how such places exist. this is such a great topic to have everyone contribute to.
are there any suggestions as to how to decipher the mishmash of real private vs fake private areas in my region? everywhere i go there are gates and 'no trespassing' signs maintained by 'so and so lumber company'.

[Surrey Boy]

Most of the South Island is private forests and hunters are persona non grata on most of em. Sucks how the government sold us out but it is what it is.

Stay away from active sites and routes, don't wreck anything, and they don't care.

[boxhitch]

are there any suggestions as to how to decipher the mishmash of real private vs fake private areas in my region? everywhere i go there are gates and 'no trespassing' signs maintained by 'so and so lumber company'.Go to the local Regional District office, planning dept, to find out details and look at maps. Its all public info. They wil have info on gates, if they are legitimate. If not, bring the info to their attention.

[hillman]

Most of the private land in the Kootenays are due to government land grants to build railways in the 1880s up to 1906... just like on the Island. Many of the owners have their land in a "managed forest" tax status. Darkwoods is by far the biggest at over 59,000 hectares

Check this link to find out more about private forest land. http://mfcouncil.ca/

Here's a report on the Council's Governance issues on private forest land that evaluated the work/background when it was known as the Private Managed Forest Land Council... now it is the Managed Forest Council : http://mfcouncil.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PMFLC-5-Year-Review-final-report.pdf

[btridge]

Yes I understood that it was private property until recently sold to the NCC
Your statement that the property was private property until recently would imply that it is no longer private because it is now NCC property. The Nature Conservancy of Canada (NCC) is a Canadian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian) private not-for-profit charitable (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charitable_organization) environmental organization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_organization) established in 1962. This is not public property, it is still private.

[boblly1]

We have the same issues on Vancouver island. For years the logging and manufacturing was owned and operated by a few big players. One of which was McMillan Bloedel i worked for this company for almost 30 years. Until they sold to the next generation that was when the wheels fell off for the general public. You see in the old days the company understood the need for a strong relationship with the hunting fishing hiking yes and a t v communities. As they need our help to watch and report mischief or disrespectful behavior instead of this they chose to lock up the roads and deactivate the rest. Thinking that this would stop vandals but in fact what they have done is increased the problem by a huge number. Everyone knows that every barrel has couple of bad apples.But with our help with that i mean the user groups i mentioned as we as those yet come can play a much bigger part watching over their investments. And i do not mean by intervening but by reporting their activities. By refusing access gating and deactivating. It is just a means of recruiting more vandals

[Huevos]

Like TBridge says, NCC is a private landowner. The good news is that they are not against sustainable use of the land. Their main interest is to preserve sensitive habitats for future generations. Find out who is the land manager for your area and ask permission to either cross, or hunt the property. Chances are, they will let you on. Sometimes they make deals with the previous landowner before they buy the property though. I know some landowners that have sold out to NCC but still maintained useage for 30 years. Other stipulations in the sale of a particular piece of land might apply as well, so the best thing to do is phone and ask.

[adriaticum]

Your statement that the property was private property until recently would imply that it is no longer private because it is now NCC property. The Nature Conservancy of Canada (NCC) is a Canadian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian) private not-for-profit charitable (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charitable_organization) environmental organization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_organization) established in 1962. This is not public property, it is still private.



Exactly. It's private property. It may be that today they allow unlimited public access, but if tomorrow they are in need of money they will sell to the first buyer which will still keep it private property and that buyer probably won't allow access.
Donating money to non-profits for land acquisition is a fool's game.

Anything not owned by Federal or Provincial government is NOT public property.
We have no say in how non-profits conduct their business.
But we do have a say in how Feds or the Province conduct their business.
Theoretically.

[Gun Dog]

Darkwoods was a German owned logging company, that was formed on the basis of the large property acquisition south of Nelson. As others have stated, recently sold to Nature Conservancy.In 1967 a German Duke bought the property as a refuge for his family. It was the height of the Cold War, the Russian tanks were pushing up against the German border and the Duke wanted someplace far away for the impending war.

It's been private property since 1897.

Duke's Cold War refuge named B.C. nature reserve (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/dukes-cold-war-refuge-named-bc-nature-reserve/article17969703/)

[adriaticum]

Recreation options Outdoor activities allowed on the property include hiking, fishing, snowmobiling and skiing. All visitors must have a permit to access Darkwoods.
To obtain a permit, please contact the Canadian Rockies Program office at 250-342-5521 or canadian.rockies@natureconservancy.ca. Permits are free.



The use of on- or off-road vehicles, the building of fires, trapping, cutting of firewood and dogs are prohibited.
When you can visit Darkwoods is open to the public from July through September. Permits are required for entry.
Because of industrial truck activity on the roads during the work week, recreational car access is allowed only on weekends on the main roads.
During the winter, members belonging to the Association of BC Snowmobile Clubs are welcome to access Darkwoods. Each guest must sign a waiver and access is only for the designated roads. Contact the Canadian Rockies Program office at 250-342-5521 or canadian.rockies@natureconservancy.ca for permits, maps and more information.

[AgSilver]

Cutting of dogs is prohibited? Thankfully! that'd be awful!