In defence of wild food

[two-feet]

One question to ask any person that is either anti hunting or unconvinced either way is "what do you eat?"

Any meat that comes from the industrial farm system is simply disgusting and unhealthy, those animals are treated in a way that can only be described as evil.

Even vegetable crops are grown in huge tracts of land that used to be wild, natural places. Now it is mono-crops that are devoid of biodiversity and have displaced the native plants and animals, without even mentioning the use of fertilizers and insecticides/herbicides. The harvest of these crops kills small birds and mammals by the hundreds when they get caught up in the combines.

The game we take from wild places is truly sustainable. If managed properly these wild lands will provide FOR EVER, which can not be said of almost any other modern method of food production. This also gives an inherent value to the wild places and begs for their consevation.

The fact of the matter is that human existence will cause the death of other animals. Period. It is up to each individual to choose how and when this happens.

People are so removed from the natural world that they have become uncomfortable with the one constant of all life: death. To forget that we are also animals living in this system, and to remove us from the wild cycle of life is a huge, dangerous mistake and this, more than anything else, will lead to the destruction of the natural world.

[wideopenthrottle]

I have a philosophy that i will say briefly .... there are two types of people in the world..those that think of humans as part of the natural world and those that think we are not .....for the ones that think we are part of the natural world they can again be divided into 2...ones that were indoctrinated/raised with it and those that learned it....you can always tell these last two apart by their reaction in a natural place beauty ( what i call a place of power )...they will either be overcome and say things like "wow this blows me away" or they will react with a calm and peaceful zen like state getting energy for the soul/being nourished by the earth...

hunting in the woods takes me to places of power..i need to go to these places to nourish my soul...

[MattW]

I enjoy my hunting and game meat as much as the next guy. I am however also a farmer so I'm going to take exception to the original comment.

Hunting is great and a game animal is a very nice treat but in fact we can't all get out meat that way, there isn't enough to go round, that wouldn't be sustainable. I would say enjoy getting your game meat and be glad that the farmer provides meat for the huge majority out there.

What is it with people and this "industrial farm" buzz word these days. In Canada anyway the huge majority of farming is a family affair, with a few exceptions. I will concede that, just as with any large group, there are bad eggs but the vast majority of farmers are putting in a lot of work to have happy animals and a safe and healthy product for the consumer. I can see applying the industrial moniker to the processing and packing end of things but what do you expect given the size of the population that needs to be fed each and every day. Farming is spread out over the land and processing is centralized near the major population centers, that's just sensible logistics. As far as evil treatment goes, what is it you think we're doing? I ask this seriously. We've all seen some of the stuff that shows up on the news from time to time but surely you understand that is being sensationalized and pushed by many of the same groups pushing the anti-hunting agenda. The reality (which every good farmer knows) is that if you want your animals to thrive you have to treat them well.

In Canada also we have the luxury of choices in our food. If you strongly believe in lower density, organic farming you can speak with your dollars and buy that product. It will cost you a little more, it takes more man hours to produce. However if you don't have the luxury of extra food money and can't afford to go hunting there are lots of perfectly healthy and ethical options for that person too.

[tuner]

^^^well said MattW.

[hoochie]

hunting in the woods takes me to places of power..i need to go to these places to nourish my soul...

I have been struggling lately with who I am and where I am in life. I work with technology, and its all about internet speed, faster, more bandwidth...fiber optics.... more more more. Everyone is expecting wifi any and everywhere they go; people on the roads flocking in waves, creating massive traffic jams, taking hours to get to work some days.
One of the best things I can think of for me to unwind, is to walk through the woods with my dog and my rifle or shotgun. To be in a place that is so quiet I can hear a raven fly far over head, or a branch break from what seems like a mile away.
I guess one could say hunting is actually hard work, but when you enjoy something it isnt work, its good for your soul. I know that when I sit down to eat a meal, I walked many miles, and provided that meal as result of my dedication and effort.

No cell phones, no internet, no wifi. just a well dialed in rifle with a decent handload.... it doesnt get any better than walking up to your buck and cutting that tag.

[northof49]

[QUOTE=tuner;1809928]^^^well said MattW.[/QUOTE

x2

[MattW]

I have been struggling lately with who I am and where I am in life. I work with technology, and its all about internet speed, faster, more bandwidth...fiber optics.... more more more. Everyone is expecting wifi any and everywhere they go; people on the roads flocking in waves, creating massive traffic jams, taking hours to get to work some days.
One of the best things I can think of for me to unwind, is to walk through the woods with my dog and my rifle or shotgun. To be in a place that is so quiet I can hear a raven fly far over head, or a branch break from what seems like a mile away.
I guess one could say hunting is actually hard work, but when you enjoy something it isnt work, its good for your soul. I know that when I sit down to eat a meal, I walked many miles, and provided that meal as result of my dedication and effort.

No cell phones, no internet, no wifi. just a well dialed in rifle with a decent handload.... it doesnt get any better than walking up to your buck and cutting that tag.
I can sure agree with this.
I also enjoy putting in the sweat and growing my food.

[kevan]

[QUOTE=tuner;1809928]^^^well said MattW.[/QUOTE

x2

Same here, excellent post Matt W.

[kevan]

I can sure agree with this.
I also enjoy putting in the sweat and growing my food.

It's all part of farm life.

[ruger#1]

If people only new what crap is put in animal feed.lots of women are figuring it out. And turning to hunting. Hey, Kevan. Eat your spinach.

[kevan]

If people only new what crap is put in animal feed.lots of women are figuring it out. And turning to hunting. Hey, Kevan. Eat your spinach.

I did Mom, stop pickin' on me..

Regarding animal food, many years ago a former employer, a local trucking conglomerate made a good business of receiving and storing the ground waste from the huge fish processing plants in South America.
Naturally, it came by shipping container and was the most wretched, filthiest stuff anyone could handle.
A Cat loader piled it in the huge warehouse and during the off loading process a large crew oversaw the steam cleaning of the seacans so they could return to the docks.
Having been a part of that, I can readily relate to the content of animal feed.

A bit different to what I fed my cattle on that flatlander ranch many decades ago..

[ruger#1]

In Chilliwack. There used to be a small mill. They collected all the dead chickens in the barns. Then they would grind them. Feathers and all. Then extruded them. Then they were mixed in the chicken feed. Some drivers said that the floor was covered in maggots. People in the neighborhood were glad when that place was gone. Now west coast reduction owns it.

[kevan]

Every once in a while a can of fish meal would arrive with a tear in the roof allowing the rain to rot everything inside while promoting the growth of huge maggot colonies....fun stuff ..

[ruger#1]

Every once in a while a can of fish meal would arrive with a tear in the roof allowing the rain to rot everything inside while promoting the growth of huge maggot colonies....fun stuff .. Herring meal. I unloaded a lot of that stuff. The rats loved it.

[kevan]

When the company I discussed shut down that operation and dismantled everything the rats had nowhere to go but into the surrounding fields and seriously I have never knew rats could get that big.... Unreal..

[Patman7]

I enjoy my hunting and game meat as much as the next guy. I am however also a farmer so I'm going to take exception to the original comment.

Hunting is great and a game animal is a very nice treat but in fact we can't all get out meat that way, there isn't enough to go round, that wouldn't be sustainable. I would say enjoy getting your game meat and be glad that the farmer provides meat for the huge majority out there.

What is it with people and this "industrial farm" buzz word these days. In Canada anyway the huge majority of farming is a family affair, with a few exceptions. I will concede that, just as with any large group, there are bad eggs but the vast majority of farmers are putting in a lot of work to have happy animals and a safe and healthy product for the consumer. I can see applying the industrial moniker to the processing and packing end of things but what do you expect given the size of the population that needs to be fed each and every day. Farming is spread out over the land and processing is centralized near the major population centers, that's just sensible logistics. As far as evil treatment goes, what is it you think we're doing? I ask this seriously. We've all seen some of the stuff that shows up on the news from time to time but surely you understand that is being sensationalized and pushed by many of the same groups pushing the anti-hunting agenda. The reality (which every good farmer knows) is that if you want your animals to thrive you have to treat them well.

In Canada also we have the luxury of choices in our food. If you strongly believe in lower density, organic farming you can speak with your dollars and buy that product. It will cost you a little more, it takes more man hours to produce. However if you don't have the luxury of extra food money and can't afford to go hunting there are lots of perfectly healthy and ethical options for that person too.

This is worded so true! I grew up on a farm also, and know the hard work and respect that goes into raising animals and crops, two feets description is pretty well fantasized from who knows where or why he came up with that statement? Thanks Matt!

Pat

[Salty]

What is it with people and this "industrial farm" buzz word these days. In Canada anyway the huge majority of farming is a family affair, with a few exceptions. .

Based out of ignorance. They hear all the bad stuff about some of the big processers, the slaughter houses, Monsanto and the like and paint the whole show with the same brush. Some of the healthiest meat around is beef off of the typical farm or ranch in BC. Before they go through 100 days of being stuffed with "finishing" feed and no more grass though IMO. Totally agree most of the farming and ranching in BC is a family type operation with good practices and ethics. Having said that, pretty tough to beat wild game..

[silveragent]

Unless people are prepared to embrace Jainism (the religion where they even wear masks so they don't breathe in microorganism), they have to face the fact that humans will have impact no matter what food they consume. I have no problem with people making their own personal choice to embrace one form of eating over another. I have never considered dropping meat from my diet and while I do have concerns over the health of meat, I accept that we need farms and ranches to provide us with mass food. To think otherwise is foolish.

I spent the vast majority of my life hardly eating anything I had personally acquired beyond plucking the odd salmon berry, a cherry tomato grown in a measly backyard plot or a couple times as a child bringing in a creek trout. Like most of modern society my food has been mediated, prepared, packaged and transported hundreds of miles from where it was taken. I have benefited from an industrial method of food production. I am stronger, taller and possibly smarter than my forefathers because of easy and cheap access to food.

That said, all of us should have the experience of participating - if only during rare moments - in the extraction of food just so they know what it takes. Incredible as it may sound, I know personally oddball people who have never once willingly touched even packaged meat. The thought of touching uncooked meat disgusts them so much they can't even open up a chilled package to drop it onto a pan. And yet they are meat eaters. If you can imagine that, there is no way I would expect them to throw out a fishing line or prepare a freshly killed bird. However, I believe with engagement, we can encourage open minded people to consider at least experiencing once in their lives what it actually means to consume as our ancestors did - to strive to either bring something out of the earth or to bring an animal to ground. We are not just eating machines who take things out of packages. We are animals who happen to be able to think.

[MattW]

Unless people are prepared to embrace Jainism (the religion where they even wear masks so they don't breathe in microorganism), they have to face the fact that humans will have impact no matter what food they consume. I have no problem with people making their own personal choice to embrace one form of eating over another. I have never considered dropping meat from my diet and while I do have concerns over the health of meat, I accept that we need farms and ranches to provide us with mass food. To think otherwise is foolish.

I spent the vast majority of my life hardly eating anything I had personally acquired beyond plucking the odd salmon berry, a cherry tomato grown in a measly backyard plot or a couple times as a child bringing in a creek trout. Like most of modern society my food has been mediated, prepared, packaged and transported hundreds of miles from where it was taken. I have benefited from an industrial method of food production. I am stronger, taller and possibly smarter than my forefathers because of easy and cheap access to food.

That said, all of us should have the experience of participating - if only during rare moments - in the extraction of food just so they know what it takes. Incredible as it may sound, I know personally oddball people who have never once willingly touched even packaged meat. The thought of touching uncooked meat disgusts them so much they can't even open up a chilled package to drop it onto a pan. And yet they are meat eaters. If you can imagine that, there is no way I would expect them to throw out a fishing line or prepare a freshly killed bird. However, I believe with engagement, we can encourage open minded people to consider at least experiencing once in their lives what it actually means to consume as our ancestors did - to strive to either bring something out of the earth or to bring an animal to ground. We are not just eating machines who take things out of packages. We are animals who happen to be able to think.
Interesting thoughts for sure. I once had a teacher in school like this, she couldn't cut up her own chicken, had to always buy the tray packs.

To reply to some of the comments on what goes into the animals feed, (fishmeal), yes that goes into poultry and hog feed because they are omnivores, it does get cooked at the feed mill and the animals love it. The main ingredient by far though is still grains. It is against the law to feed any animal product to cattle though.

[ruger#1]

Interesting thoughts for sure. I once had a teacher in school like this, she couldn't cut up her own chicken, had to always buy the tray packs.

To reply to some of the comments on what goes into the animals feed, (fishmeal), yes that goes into poultry and hog feed because they are omnivores, it does get cooked at the feed mill and the animals love it. The main ingredient by far though is still grains. It is against the law to feed any animal product to cattle though. You can not feed meat meal to cow. That goes into chicken feed. You can feed to cattle fish meal, Chicken meal. And porcine. Which is pork meal. How do I know this. I have worked in three feed mills. There is a farmer in Abbotsford who feeds his cows. Fish meal. It helps in the omega 3s in the dairy milk. Meat meal. As in cattle meat. Is not suppose to be feed to ungulates.

[Arctic Lake]

If I have my facts right this is how they ended up with Mad Cow Disease.
Arctic Lake

[ruger#1]

Interesting thoughts for sure. I once had a teacher in school like this, she couldn't cut up her own chicken, had to always buy the tray packs.

To reply to some of the comments on what goes into the animals feed, (fishmeal), yes that goes into poultry and hog feed because they are omnivores, it does get cooked at the feed mill and the animals love it. The main ingredient by far though is still grains. It is against the law to feed any animal product to cattle though.
It does not get cooked at the feed mill. A pellet mill will not generate enough heat to cook it. And that is how your dairy. Hog, And chicken feed is made. If you want to cook the feed, You need to extrude it. Like dog kibble or fish pellets , and cat food. Extruded feed uses stream and high pressure to cook the feed. Extruded feed will also float, Pellets will not. Extruded also runs at around six tons an hour. Pellet mills run between 10 and 40 tons an hour. I still work in a feed mill. All the chemical ingredients come from China. Phosphate, Lysine. to name a few.

[ruger#1]

Interesting thoughts for sure. I once had a teacher in school like this, she couldn't cut up her own chicken, had to always buy the tray packs.

To reply to some of the comments on what goes into the animals feed, (fishmeal), yes that goes into poultry and hog feed because they are omnivores, it does get cooked at the feed mill and the animals love it. The main ingredient by far though is still grains. It is against the law to feed any animal product to cattle though. http://www.todaysfarmer.ca/2009/07/14/fishmeal-makes-the-difference-at-dairy-farm

http://www.allnaturalpetcare.com/Animal_Nutrition_Research/Fishmeal_For_Dairy_Cows.pdf

[Rugernator]

I have a philosophy that i will say briefly .... there are two types of people in the world..those that think of humans as part of the natural world and those that think we are not .....for the ones that think we are part of the natural world they can again be divided into 2...ones that were indoctrinated/raised with it and those that learned it....you can always tell these last two apart by their reaction in a natural place beauty ( what i call a place of power )...they will either be overcome and say things like "wow this blows me away" or they will react with a calm and peaceful zen like state getting energy for the soul/being nourished by the earth...

hunting in the woods takes me to places of power..i need to go to these places to nourish my soul...


Couldn't have said it better myself.

Hunting, being in the woods and sleeping under the stars fills my "soul". There is no feeling like it.
People who haven't done it, people who live in the city and don't know what it means to be "naked" in nature have no idea what they're missing out on.

Bo

[ajr5406]

Many of us have heard the supportive comment veiled with an ethical ultimatum. "I'm fine with your hunting as long as you use all of the animal parts."
The look I get is great when I respond "As long as you do the same with the animals you eat."

Good point... These comments usually come from people who will only eat chicken breasts and beef tenderloin, but feel the need to justify their hypocrisy

[wideopenthrottle]

the old fellow I hunt with goes to the extreme..he keeps all the tongues, livers, hearts and even the lungs...for me, liver yes and occasionally a heart but lungs?? yuck

[ruger#1]

the old fellow I hunt with goes to the extreme..he keeps all the tongues, livers, hearts and even the lungs...for me, liver yes and occasionally a heart but lungs?? yuck OMG man. Are you crazy. I wouldn't eat the lungs either. I was given a few beef tounges from the farm. I wouldn't even eat them. But I know a Frenchman that would. He was very happy to get them.

[ajr5406]

OMG man. Are you crazy. I wouldn't eat the lungs either. I was given a few beef tounges from the farm. I wouldn't even eat them. But I know a Frenchman that would. He was very happy to get them.

Heimo Korth and his wife eat the stomach of caribou, RAW! Now that's gross...

[wideopenthrottle]

Heimo Korth and his wife eat the stomach of caribou, RAW! Now that's gross... double yikes!!!!!

[barry1974w]

I enjoy my hunting and game meat as much as the next guy. I am however also a farmer so I'm going to take exception to the original comment.

Hunting is great and a game animal is a very nice treat but in fact we can't all get out meat that way, there isn't enough to go round, that wouldn't be sustainable. I would say enjoy getting your game meat and be glad that the farmer provides meat for the huge majority out there.

What is it with people and this "industrial farm" buzz word these days. In Canada anyway the huge majority of farming is a family affair, with a few exceptions. I will concede that, just as with any large group, there are bad eggs but the vast majority of farmers are putting in a lot of work to have happy animals and a safe and healthy product for the consumer. I can see applying the industrial moniker to the processing and packing end of things but what do you expect given the size of the population that needs to be fed each and every day. Farming is spread out over the land and processing is centralized near the major population centers, that's just sensible logistics. As far as evil treatment goes, what is it you think we're doing? I ask this seriously. We've all seen some of the stuff that shows up on the news from time to time but surely you understand that is being sensationalized and pushed by many of the same groups pushing the anti-hunting agenda. The reality (which every good farmer knows) is that if you want your animals to thrive you have to treat them well.

In Canada also we have the luxury of choices in our food. If you strongly believe in lower density, organic farming you can speak with your dollars and buy that product. It will cost you a little more, it takes more man hours to produce. However if you don't have the luxury of extra food money and can't afford to go hunting there are lots of perfectly healthy and ethical options for that person too.


what he said......

[two-feet]

I enjoy my hunting and game meat as much as the next guy. I am however also a farmer so I'm going to take exception to the original comment.

Hunting is great and a game animal is a very nice treat but in fact we can't all get out meat that way, there isn't enough to go round, that wouldn't be sustainable. I would say enjoy getting your game meat and be glad that the farmer provides meat for the huge majority out there.

What is it with people and this "industrial farm" buzz word these days. In Canada anyway the huge majority of farming is a family affair, with a few exceptions. I will concede that, just as with any large group, there are bad eggs but the vast majority of farmers are putting in a lot of work to have happy animals and a safe and healthy product for the consumer. I can see applying the industrial moniker to the processing and packing end of things but what do you expect given the size of the population that needs to be fed each and every day. Farming is spread out over the land and processing is centralized near the major population centers, that's just sensible logistics. As far as evil treatment goes, what is it you think we're doing? I ask this seriously. We've all seen some of the stuff that shows up on the news from time to time but surely you understand that is being sensationalized and pushed by many of the same groups pushing the anti-hunting agenda. The reality (which every good farmer knows) is that if you want your animals to thrive you have to treat them well.

In Canada also we have the luxury of choices in our food. If you strongly believe in lower density, organic farming you can speak with your dollars and buy that product. It will cost you a little more, it takes more man hours to produce. However if you don't have the luxury of extra food money and can't afford to go hunting there are lots of perfectly healthy and ethical options for that person too.

Good post, good points. My post was meant less as an attack on farmers and more of a defence for hunters. I come from generations of cattle ranchers in northern bc, and yes these animals are happy and healthy. But this is not represtative of society as a whole. A barn full of thousands of birds that never see the light of day is disgusting, and the way they are handled before slaughter is immoral. Yes this is necessary to feed the masses chicken mcnuggets at a very cheap price but there is an alternative- healthier animals sold at an increased price. Im ok with this, maybe you are, but joe chicago probably has no clue that there is even an issue.

Are you aware of the Ag Gag laws in the states? Where it is a crime for people to report on the conditions inside of "factory farms"? Do you really think there is no problems with the industry?

Ever been to Brookes, alberta? There is a stench worse than shit that hits you in the face from about 5km out of town, this is the processi g facillity where almost all the beef in western canada goes. Im saying that if you can remove yourself from this by harvesting wild meat, this is good.

To say "industrial farming" is a buzz word because you treat your animals well is ridiculous. Many things look pretty good when your baseline is bc. Unhealthy, unhappy animals are raised by the squillions.

I had a burger from A&W just the other day, it was guiltily delicious! So im not saying im a saint or holier than thou, but my family eats wild game or meat raised locally the majority of the time and if you can do this instead of buying meat at safeway, this is the healthier, more moral way.

[MattW]

Good post, good points. My post was meant less as an attack on farmers and more of a defence for hunters. I come from generations of cattle ranchers in northern bc, and yes these animals are happy and healthy. But this is not represtative of society as a whole. A barn full of thousands of birds that never see the light of day is disgusting, and the way they are handled before slaughter is immoral. Yes this is necessary to feed the masses chicken mcnuggets at a very cheap price but there is an alternative- healthier animals sold at an increased price. Im ok with this, maybe you are, but joe chicago probably has no clue that there is even an issue.

Are you aware of the Ag Gag laws in the states? Where it is a crime for people to report on the conditions inside of "factory farms"? Do you really think there is no problems with the industry?

Ever been to Brookes, alberta? There is a stench worse than shit that hits you in the face from about 5km out of town, this is the processi g facillity where almost all the beef in western canada goes. Im saying that if you can remove yourself from this by harvesting wild meat, this is good.

To say "industrial farming" is a buzz word because you treat your animals well is ridiculous. Many things look pretty good when your baseline is bc. Unhealthy, unhappy animals are raised by the squillions.

I had a burger from A&W just the other day, it was guiltily delicious! So im not saying im a saint or holier than thou, but my family eats wild game or meat raised locally the majority of the time and if you can do this instead of buying meat at safeway, this is the healthier, more moral way.
I'm glad you weren't intending to attack farmers. I also really enjoy my hunting and we probably aren't that different if we were talking.

I am aware of the "Ag Gag" laws in the US. I disagree with them in that I think they are the wrong approach to the issue but there are two sides to them. The animal rights side tends to hold them out as punishing whistle blowers because agriculture and farming have things to hide. On the flip side one could say they are trying to protect farming and the massive number of people it employs from predatory journalism (animal rights groups trying to get the worst possible pictures to damage farming). These laws give them the option to pursue charges in cases like this. For example if you have a barn full of chickens something as simple as taking a picture can tell two stories. If you take a picture from a low angle looking across the barn full of birds it looks like wall to wall chickens with nowhere for them to move. Take a picture of that same barn in among the birds looking down at your feet and you can see that the birds do have space to move freely. Most of the pictures the animal rights groups like to show are taken on catching night when the lights are turned out so the birds will settle down and not crowd each other. Take a picture of them huddled on the floor in the dark and say that this is how chickens are raised and it looks pretty bad indeed but it has no basis in truth. You could take this idea and apply it to almost any profession with a bit of imagination, it does get used almost anywhere that animals are involved. All this being said the laws are less than ideal, in an ideal world we'd all run such a squeaky clean operation there'd be no need for a law like that.

To continue a bit with the chickens, in Canada they live in warm dry barns with feed, water and all the space they need. Regulations regarding humane treatment are tight and getting tighter all the time. When they're caught they're loaded onto trucks where again there are regulations about how much space they have and how long they can be on the truck before entering the plant. In the plant there are laws about humane killing and how quickly it must happen, live birds never come in contact with dead birds. Even at my farm there are laws that I cannot euthanize a bird within sight of live birds, after a lifetime of farming they made me (and every other poultry farmer) attend euthanasia lessons. When you have this many birds the need will arise to euthanize a few. If this most basic level of treatment is not good enough a consumer can always choose to purchase a free range or organic bird where the standards are higher still. Any bird you buy in BC will be produced in BC to these standards.

I have been to Brooks Alberta and I suspect it would smell even without the processing plant. In all seriousness though I would say that the smell is a product of the volume rather than a reflection of poor treatment of the animals or unclean handling of meat. That volume of cattle means a lot of waste both from the living animals and after the kill. Similarly I won't judge the food made in your kitchen by the smell of your bathroom and garbage can.

I am guilty of viewing the issue too narrowly. I tend to think of farming as what I do and what I see here at home in BC and indeed for commodities like milk, eggs and poultry that's all you can get in the stores here. I sometimes forget that plenty of food is still outsourced from other nations, often global low cost producers. This is where you and I as consumers can really only affect change with our dollars choosing local sources.

[wideopenthrottle]

time for a fun fact...while on a bus tour in Australia over the bus intercom, it was pointed out that the massive tracts of cattle we saw out the windows lived on some of the largest cattle ranches in the world......he let that sink in....then he said "the majority of those cattle were going to end up at McDonalds"...after that had time to sink in he said "and if you look over to the left, you see all those light brown coloured cows.....they are made into big macs and cheesburgers".....a few seconds later,..."and those black cows,...they end up as quarter pounders".......a few seconds later, "and you see all those multi-coloured ones over there.....they end up as the fillet of fish and mc chickens".......I burst out laughing but I noticed that I was the only one that did......then there were little pockets of giggles here and there....you could sure tell which groups had English as a second language.....

[ajr5406]

I'm glad you weren't intending to attack farmers. I also really enjoy my hunting and we probably aren't that different if we were talking.

I am aware of the "Ag Gag" laws in the US. I disagree with them in that I think they are the wrong approach to the issue but there are two sides to them. The animal rights side tends to hold them out as punishing whistle blowers because agriculture and farming have things to hide. On the flip side one could say they are trying to protect farming and the massive number of people it employs from predatory journalism (animal rights groups trying to get the worst possible pictures to damage farming). These laws give them the option to pursue charges in cases like this. For example if you have a barn full of chickens something as simple as taking a picture can tell two stories. If you take a picture from a low angle looking across the barn full of birds it looks like wall to wall chickens with nowhere for them to move. Take a picture of that same barn in among the birds looking down at your feet and you can see that the birds do have space to move freely. Most of the pictures the animal rights groups like to show are taken on catching night when the lights are turned out so the birds will settle down and not crowd each other. Take a picture of them huddled on the floor in the dark and say that this is how chickens are raised and it looks pretty bad indeed but it has no basis in truth. You could take this idea and apply it to almost any profession with a bit of imagination, it does get used almost anywhere that animals are involved. All this being said the laws are less than ideal, in an ideal world we'd all run such a squeaky clean operation there'd be no need for a law like that.

To continue a bit with the chickens, in Canada they live in warm dry barns with feed, water and all the space they need. Regulations regarding humane treatment are tight and getting tighter all the time. When they're caught they're loaded onto trucks where again there are regulations about how much space they have and how long they can be on the truck before entering the plant. In the plant there are laws about humane killing and how quickly it must happen, live birds never come in contact with dead birds. Even at my farm there are laws that I cannot euthanize a bird within sight of live birds, after a lifetime of farming they made me (and every other poultry farmer) attend euthanasia lessons. When you have this many birds the need will arise to euthanize a few. If this most basic level of treatment is not good enough a consumer can always choose to purchase a free range or organic bird where the standards are higher still. Any bird you buy in BC will be produced in BC to these standards.

I have been to Brooks Alberta and I suspect it would smell even without the processing plant. In all seriousness though I would say that the smell is a product of the volume rather than a reflection of poor treatment of the animals or unclean handling of meat. That volume of cattle means a lot of waste both from the living animals and after the kill. Similarly I won't judge the food made in your kitchen by the smell of your bathroom and garbage can.

I am guilty of viewing the issue too narrowly. I tend to think of farming as what I do and what I see here at home in BC and indeed for commodities like milk, eggs and poultry that's all you can get in the stores here. I sometimes forget that plenty of food is still outsourced from other nations, often global low cost producers. This is where you and I as consumers can really only affect change with our dollars choosing local sources.


Im interested in chickens... We have stopped buying the big trays of Kirkland brand chicken breasts at Costco as I would prefer to support local farmers. I have found a family friend who has a free run chicken farm in Abbotsford. We buy direct the day after they are butchered. I get 5 or 6 at a time and then break them down and vacuum seal them (breasts, legs, wings etc), so we eat the whole thing and also turn all the carcasses into great chicken stock.

Are you saying that the chicken we buy from the farm is really no different than the supermarket stuff?

[ruger#1]

Matt. I am not attacking farmers either. My buddy owns 400 head of dairy cows on the North side of the Fraser. I work there sometimes. I work full time at a feed mill. So I do know what is the feed is made of. I have been running pellet mills and extruders for over 25 years. This is something that looks good. http://theheartysoul.com/antibiotic-free-chicken-farming/?t=CHH&W=Viral

[Xenomorph]

I'm glad you weren't intending to attack farmers. I also really enjoy my hunting and we probably aren't that different if we were talking.

I am aware of the "Ag Gag" laws in the US. I disagree with them in that I think they are the wrong approach to the issue but there are two sides to them. The animal rights side tends to hold them out as punishing whistle blowers because agriculture and farming have things to hide. On the flip side one could say they are trying to protect farming and the massive number of people it employs from predatory journalism (animal rights groups trying to get the worst possible pictures to damage farming). These laws give them the option to pursue charges in cases like this. For example if you have a barn full of chickens something as simple as taking a picture can tell two stories. If you take a picture from a low angle looking across the barn full of birds it looks like wall to wall chickens with nowhere for them to move. Take a picture of that same barn in among the birds looking down at your feet and you can see that the birds do have space to move freely. Most of the pictures the animal rights groups like to show are taken on catching night when the lights are turned out so the birds will settle down and not crowd each other. Take a picture of them huddled on the floor in the dark and say that this is how chickens are raised and it looks pretty bad indeed but it has no basis in truth. You could take this idea and apply it to almost any profession with a bit of imagination, it does get used almost anywhere that animals are involved. All this being said the laws are less than ideal, in an ideal world we'd all run such a squeaky clean operation there'd be no need for a law like that.

To continue a bit with the chickens, in Canada they live in warm dry barns with feed, water and all the space they need. Regulations regarding humane treatment are tight and getting tighter all the time. When they're caught they're loaded onto trucks where again there are regulations about how much space they have and how long they can be on the truck before entering the plant. In the plant there are laws about humane killing and how quickly it must happen, live birds never come in contact with dead birds. Even at my farm there are laws that I cannot euthanize a bird within sight of live birds, after a lifetime of farming they made me (and every other poultry farmer) attend euthanasia lessons. When you have this many birds the need will arise to euthanize a few. If this most basic level of treatment is not good enough a consumer can always choose to purchase a free range or organic bird where the standards are higher still. Any bird you buy in BC will be produced in BC to these standards.

I have been to Brooks Alberta and I suspect it would smell even without the processing plant. In all seriousness though I would say that the smell is a product of the volume rather than a reflection of poor treatment of the animals or unclean handling of meat. That volume of cattle means a lot of waste both from the living animals and after the kill. Similarly I won't judge the food made in your kitchen by the smell of your bathroom and garbage can.

I am guilty of viewing the issue too narrowly. I tend to think of farming as what I do and what I see here at home in BC and indeed for commodities like milk, eggs and poultry that's all you can get in the stores here. I sometimes forget that plenty of food is still outsourced from other nations, often global low cost producers. This is where you and I as consumers can really only affect change with our dollars choosing local sources.


I think a whole lot of the BS has to do with how clueless and disproportionately broken away from anything "hands on" these kids nowadays have become. Pretty soon you'll get someone inventing meat from "something" because it's more humane.

The old ways of common sense, mutual respect and "working together" are all but lingering pictures of a world and culture about to disappear. I, for one, am not going to let this go quietly; my boy's coming of age, my daughter's still young, but I can guarantee you they'll both pay a farmer visits in the summer to lend a hand, help out, shovel some shit and generally stop buttoning away at their electronics.

Not better than selfies shoveling... #AmIRight

[MattW]

Im interested in chickens... We have stopped buying the big trays of Kirkland brand chicken breasts at Costco as I would prefer to support local farmers. I have found a family friend who has a free run chicken farm in Abbotsford. We buy direct the day after they are butchered. I get 5 or 6 at a time and then break them down and vacuum seal them (breasts, legs, wings etc), so we eat the whole thing and also turn all the carcasses into great chicken stock.

Are you saying that the chicken we buy from the farm is really no different than the supermarket stuff?
It may be different. Free run in poultry usually means the birds are raised on an open floor but still inside the barn. If what you mean is free range then that means they are let outside at least a portion of the time which would be different than the large majority of chicken in the supermarket. Any chicken you get in a store in BC though is raised in BC with free run (open floor) being the minimum standard. That said it's fun to source your own birds either way and cut them down like that, have at it and enjoy.

[MattW]

Matt. I am not attacking farmers either. My buddy owns 400 head of dairy cows on the North side of the Fraser. I work there sometimes. I work full time at a feed mill. So I do know what is the feed is made of. I have been running pellet mills and extruders for over 25 years. This is something that looks good. http://theheartysoul.com/antibiotic-free-chicken-farming/?t=CHH&W=Viral
I know. And I looked up the regs with the CFIA and you're right. My confusion came from when we owned the mill, we didn't deal in these items much and none of them went in the dairy feed, I had assumed because they were all banned but it was more that Dad just didn't like it.

[MattW]

time for a fun fact...while on a bus tour in Australia over the bus intercom, it was pointed out that the massive tracts of cattle we saw out the windows lived on some of the largest cattle ranches in the world......he let that sink in....then he said "the majority of those cattle were going to end up at McDonalds"...after that had time to sink in he said "and if you look over to the left, you see all those light brown coloured cows.....they are made into big macs and cheesburgers".....a few seconds later,..."and those black cows,...they end up as quarter pounders".......a few seconds later, "and you see all those multi-coloured ones over there.....they end up as the fillet of fish and mc chickens".......I burst out laughing but I noticed that I was the only one that did......then there were little pockets of giggles here and there....you could sure tell which groups had English as a second language.....
Boggles the mind doesn't it.

[ruger#1]

I know. And I looked up the regs with the CFIA and you're right. My confusion came from when we owned the mill, we didn't deal in these items much and none of them went in the dairy feed, I had assumed because they were all banned but it was more that Dad just didn't like it. I managed a small feed mill in Chilliwack. We were making beanola. A replacement for meat meal. It was canola and beans or lentals mixed. It was ground up. Mixed, Then extruded. Then ground again. Then sent to the other feed mills as a meat replacement. We also made and ingredient for Omega 3 eggs. Which was ground wheat and flax seed. Those Born3 eggs were started at one of the mills I worked at. Frank Born was the guy that I worked with.

[325]

Like most, I hunt for a variety of reasons, one being meat obtained from sustainable hunting practices is the most ethical meat available.

Wild animals are "allowed" to live out their selfhoods. Take a wild elk for example. A wild elk can go where it chooses, feed and drink when it wants, can breed, fight and experience being hunted. Basically, it can do all the things that the genetics of an elk determine it should do. When we hunt an elk, we are doing something natural for both us and the elk. We are programmed to hunt, and elk are programmed to avoid being prey. It's all very natural, and as long as the harvest is sustainable, can continue forever.

Contrast that to a domestic pig raised on a large commercial pig farm. The forcible confinement of that pig will effectively prevent it from doing anything that a pig would choose to do, which is unnatural and, in my opinion, cruel.

[ajr5406]

Like most, I hunt for a variety of reasons, one being meat obtained from sustainable hunting practices is the most ethical meat available.

Wild animals are "allowed" to live out their selfhoods. Take a wild elk for example. A wild elk can go where it chooses, feed and drink when it wants, can breed, fight and experience being hunted. Basically, it can do all the things that the genetics of an elk determine it should do. When we hunt an elk, we are doing something natural for both us and the elk. We are programmed to hunt, and elk are programmed to avoid being prey. It's all very natural, and as long as the harvest is sustainable, can continue forever.

Contrast that to a domestic pig raised on a large commercial pig farm. The forcible confinement of that pig will effectively prevent it from doing anything that a pig would choose to do, which is unnatural and, in my opinion, cruel.

I like this perspective - hunting wild animals as the "natural order of things" (for predator and prey).

[Iron Glove]

Like most, I hunt for a variety of reasons, one being meat obtained from sustainable hunting practices is the most ethical meat available.

Wild animals are "allowed" to live out their selfhoods. Take a wild elk for example. A wild elk can go where it chooses, feed and drink when it wants, can breed, fight and experience being hunted. Basically, it can do all the things that the genetics of an elk determine it should do. When we hunt an elk, we are doing something natural for both us and the elk. We are programmed to hunt, and elk are programmed to avoid being prey. It's all very natural, and as long as the harvest is sustainable, can continue forever.

Contrast that to a domestic pig raised on a large commercial pig farm. The forcible confinement of that pig will effectively prevent it from doing anything that a pig would choose to do, which is unnatural and, in my opinion, cruel.

Great post. :-D
I came into hunting late in life, had a fantastic mentor who led me, on my first ever hunt, to my first kill. Figured that would be the norm. I found out in subsequent hunts that it is a heck of a lot harder than that. :mrgreen:
After the dirty work had been done and we are heading back to the cabin, my buddy asks me how I felt. Told him, quite honestly that I was somewhat stunned by the whole event and I was having a bit of trouble accepting that I had just killed something that was just roaming around in the woods having a good time. He said that yes, it's sometimes difficult but remember that the deer had lived a great life in the wild as opposed to the cow that was butchered for the steak I ate the day before. It helped me accept it.
Back at the cabin I called my Daughter to tell her I had killed a deer. She had worked at a Vet's for years and was now involved in Animal Science, she is an animal lover. She simply asked me if the deer had suffered and I said it died very, very quickly. She said that was good. A week later she was eating venison stew.
I think that most folks are not anti hunting, it's only a rabid, noisy few. Most people I know are either hunters or totally ambivalent to hunting.
I've seen a lot of my Daughter's friends seriously consider hunting because of the "pureness" of the meat.
Are there challenges facing hunters, of course but the vast majority of folks really don't have any objection to it as long as we retain a high level of ethics in our methods. I think that hunting will continue to grow and prosper in BC.

[two-feet]

Even anti hunters are coming from a place of caring for animals, we all share this in common. They just need a reality check on our position in this web of life, and what activities are truely harmful and not just sensational to sheltered people.

I have a couple pigs to slaughter this fall, family attendance is mandatory. Not that the kids need convincing.

[btridge]

It may be different. Free run in poultry usually means the birds are raised on an open floor but still inside the barn. If what you mean is free range then that means they are let outside at least a portion of the time which would be different than the large majority of chicken in the supermarket. Any chicken you get in a store in BC though is raised in BC with free run (open floor) being the minimum standard. That said it's fun to source your own birds either way and cut them down like that, have at it and enjoy.

I guess the 60 Cornish Giants I raised this spring were free run by night and free range by day! As for the food, you have a choice what you want to feed your birds. I choose to go without meat meal or antibiotics and raise them old school with molasses as a suppliment when they are chicks and hammered grains for feed.
I feed my family lots of wild meat, but it's good to have good old home grown chicken on the menu as well.

[northernbc]

it really is sad when we have to defend ourselves for this way of life. this is Canada ,I am a Canadian, this is what we do...period

[northernbc]

paid for with the blood of our previous generations.

[325]

it really is sad when we have to defend ourselves for this way of life. this is Canada ,I am a Canadian, this is what we do...period

You ain't seen nothing yet. The Wynn/Trudeau/Progressivism cohort have an entirely different notion on what being a Canadian is, than you or I.

[Rugernator]

it really is sad when we have to defend ourselves for this way of life. this is Canada ,I am a Canadian, this is what we do...period

Plain and simple. Think every guy on this forum feels the same way.
This country was founded on the backs of trappers and hunters.
We are where we are because hunters and trappers kept exploring.
As soon as my kid is old enough to hunt and fish hes gonna be getting his hands bloody and learning from me.

Bo

[tuner]

You ain't seen nothing yet. The Wynn/Trudeau/Progressivism cohort have an entirely different notion on what being a Canadian is, than you or I.
So true, and any objections to progressive policys are viewed as ignorant and bigoted, differing points of view are not tolerated, welcome to the new normal,courtesy of the regressive left.