speed cap for 3D??

[willyqbc]

Well heres an interesting topic that some folks have been talking about for a while......do you think 3D in B.C. or Canada for that matter should have a speed cap?

discuss

Chris

[Kirby]

I can understand the reason behind it but I would say no. If the sport grew in popularity, or if you broke it down into groups, such as Open has a cap, unlimited doesn't or unlimited and open do but bowhunter doesn't I could see it. Just a way of leveling the playing field. But I also see the ability to shoot a smoking fast bow accurately part of the game.


Overal I wouldn't support the move.

Kirby

[pupper]

I would say no for now as the classes somewhat seperate the speeds into categories.

unless we started shooting 500fps hunting bows then yes.

[Bow Walker]

I'm not in favor of it. I think the ability to shoot, fast or slow, is what really matters. Imposing speed limits doesn't really do anything constructive for the sport.

Shooting 320 f.p.s. at a target that is up to 60 yds away just means (to me) that you get the chance to miss the X a bit faster than the next guy. I realize that speed can make up for a small mis-judgement in yardage but in the end a good 230 f.p.s. shooter will always beat a mediocre 320 f.p.s. shooter.

as always - just one man's opinion.

[swamper]

I really don't think speed should be an issue. I know some really fast shooters that don't shoot worth sh*t and some slow shooters that you just can't beat. Leave speed out of the equation.

[Eagle1]

Is this because some can't shoot a fast bow accuarratlly
so they want a speed cap ??? Thats like saying every one should shoot bright nocks and fletching, not black p - - - k arrows, so they can be seen in the 3 - D target.
It's called " ASA " max 280 fps. At most shoots you have to pick one or the other, IBO 5 gr per pound or ASA 280 ft per second. For instinse if you pick IBO and your arrows only weight in at 4.5 gr per inch your out, or if you choose ASA and you shoot 300 fps your out. You have to choose one or the other and meet that requirerment.
How many rules and regs do we need to just have fun, we already have umptine dozen classes. Get over it.
If we keep making up rules for this, regs for that just because it doesn't suit us, soon people will just stop coming to 3 - D shoots, it's hard enough to get people out with what rules we have now, are we the goverment, regulate everything to death. Look at our gun laws!!!!!!

[Gateholio]

Stuff liek this is what made IPSC into an arms race and caused many (certainly not ALL) to become Irritable People Squabbling Incessantly.:D

Keep rules as basic as they can be- If someone wants to be a gamer, then they will get they high tech stuff. People that jut want to shoot and have a good time will do it, regardless.

[oldtimer]

EAGLE1 isn't it 5 grains per pound ? Anyways , the only advantage a fast bow has is like BowWalker says, misjudging yardage sometimes. Or possibley in some of the "Extreme" shots we get in our shoots up here but by the same token fast is a disadvantage when you want to lob that arrow over the doe to get the buck with the hidden 10 ring.
For me who has a slower by todays standards bow , 298 fps, just means if I go faster I have to go further into the bush to find my arrows. LOL .
Let people shoot what they want ! Mike

[willyqbc]

Is this because some can't shoot a fast bow accuarratlly
so they want a speed cap ???

no.....I believe that the argument is that long draw folks like me have an unfair advantage over a short draw shooter. There are many who believe a speed cap will "level" the playing field in 3D. I personally am against it for some of the reasons posted above referring to not needing any more regulations that might dissuade anyone from coming out and shooting.

Chris

[Kirby]

I personally am against it for some of the reasons posted above referring to not needing any more regulations that might dissuade anyone from coming out and shooting.

Chris

Your just against it cause eventually somebody will come out with a Draw that will actually fit you(at around 38") and you'll be breaking 400 fps:wink::mrgreen:

If you rely on speed to win 3-D your not much of a shooter... which means you won't win anyways. but it would be interesting to see the cap set at say... 220?

Kirby

[Bowzone_Mikey]

well I know Ontario Archery assoc. has a speed limit of 280

I am not favor of it .... I also know that some shooters in this country that are highly respected shoot some fast bows ....

some examples: Cody Draper 4x Outdoor Nat silver medalist and 2x Indoor Gold medalist in MBO with a Martin Fury, Hoyt super or Turbo Tecs (I think his last Gold came with either a Trykon or Vectrix) 5th place in open div at Fita world 3D champs with a Vectrix all around 300 FPS
Jude Hooey ... Various National Championships with Super/Turbo Tecs and Trykons ...Martins etc...all shooting over 295 FPS
Derek Hird At least 2 outdoor National Championships in MBO and at least 2 IBO world Championships in mens youth div (he won the 2k4 outdoor nats in PG at age 19) shooting Bowtechs at around 300

I can keep going here But I think my point is made ... now my next point is ... it dont matter how fast you shoot ... if you cant controll the bow ...your still gonna miss.

some people think that speed will make up ranging errors to a point this is correct as arrow flight is less arched ... but if you cant controll your bow ... it wont do ya any good ....

another arguement that been thrown out is less damage to targets .... that is a BS arguement ... For me to slow down my Super tec to 280 or so I would have to weight my arrows so much(pushing 500 gr as my hunting arrows are 426 gr and being flung at 299 fps at 67# ) as that I would have about 90 pounds of KE ...therefore I would blow through alot of targets in a hurry, My Trykon shoots at about 285 FPS at 313 grain arrow at 51 pounds

[sealevel]

I would be all for a speed limit. Take two equil in abiulity shooter one has a 26 in draw and one a 31 who`s going to win . the same bow is 59 fps slower. Put 280 and everyone has to work on yardage not just the short draw shooters.

[willyqbc]

I would be all for a speed limit. Take two equil in abiulity shooter one has a 26 in draw and one a 31 who`s going to win . the same bow is 59 fps slower. Put 280 and everyone has to work on yardage not just the short draw shooters.http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/misc/progress.gif

that is somewhat true Merv but even when you impose a speed cap the long draw shooter (me) is still going to have an advantage. I am going to be able to pull much less weight and still get my 280. less draw weight is often much easier to shjoot and will have much less off a fatigue factor bu the end of the day.

Chris

[sealevel]

I think willy the short draw shooter has the advantage of machanics . There is a lot less to go wrong with a short draw.

[Untouchable]

speed limits suck, are you the guys that thought they were a good idea on highways too?
things get faster and things get better, its called evolution...
If you're not in the longbow class then why cry about speed limits, ten years ago your bow shooting 290 would have been the cats azz, and I doubt you would have wanted a speed limit then? At the end of the day its gonna be the better shooter that wins, not the faster bow.:roll:

[Brambles]

I'm not in favor of speed caps, but I'm a little biased, I just bought a Black Mamba, one of the fastest bows made!!!

so

NO SPEED LIMITS PLEASE

[Jagermeister]

Personally, I think that there should be a draw lengh restriction to not exceed 29", that'll level out the playing field.:mrgreen:

[Remington]

Same here, just bought a PSE x-force, the stats say it shoots 348 fps. All the new bows I looked at stated avg speeds between 310 - 330. Wouldnt make much sense to limit the new bow's technology and penalise the ppl that want to shoot them. :confused:

[Brambles]

Not sure if it was mentioned before but faster bows are traditionally harder to shoot as accuratly than slower bows. This could very well offset the flatter trajectry of the fast bow.

[Bow Walker]

The faster bows are just less "forgiving" than their less speedy bretheren. It's the shooter that counts.

Get good with your equipment and you can beat anybody - including Bernie. He isn't shooting in excess of 315 fps and yet he rarely - if ever gets a can of whoop-ass opened unless he does the opening.

[sealevel]

Can anyone tell me what the faa rule is . is it 5 grs. pure pound or 280 fps i can`t seem to down load the shooting rules .

[willyqbc]

its is one or the other merv.

if you are shooting 280 or less you can legally shoot under 5 grains per pound, allthough most manufacturers don't reccomend it

if you are shooting over 280 fps you MUST be within the 5 grains per pound rule with 3% margin for error to account for scale differences.

Chris

[Bowzone_Mikey]

yer allowed 3% on the speed to allow for chrony diffs as well .... If your chrony says 285 you might be ok ... then again their chrony might say 289 and yer screwed

[jessbennett]

bowwalker,


getting around 320 out of my ultra elite at 55 pounds with an 8 inch brace height and just about 40 in axle to axle. pretty forgiving speedy bow i think.....:wink:


any bow over 310-315 is a fast bow. i think one would have to look at bow construction more than anything. if it has a 4 inch brace height and hatchet cams and .....yadda yadda yadda then yeah its not going to be a forgiving bow but most bows now days have at least a 7 to 7.5 brace height and still bein excess of 310 to 32o fps. (which in my opinion is more than fast enough)

just a thought thats all,

[Bow Walker]

bowwalker,


getting around 320 out of my ultra elite at 55 pounds with an 8 inch brace height and just about 40 in axle to axle. pretty forgiving speedy bow i think.....:wink:


just a thought thats all,

Wow. :eek: Can't complain about that a-tall !8-)

I've got a Vectrix XL on the way - it's advertised at 315 with a 36" A2A. I'll be using Easton Fat Boys cut down as short as the bow will handle and still give me good arrow flight. So I have no idea what to expect.

I'm going to be experimenting with a few different lengths to see what works best - what the bow likes best is more to the point.

[jessbennett]

the vectrix bows are very nice....... you'll really like them....what poundage are you shooting????

[jessbennett]

sorry, double post.....:roll:

[Bow Walker]

Take care of that stutter jess.............
I'll be shooting 60 lbs. I suspect that when I max the bolts it'll be up between 61 and 63. At least that is what my Diamond is.

I've been at a shoot where one guy in the group had a Vectrix - very quiet. On a par with a Guardian for quietness. He said it was a very smooth drawing bow as well. Since he's about my age, It should also b smooth for me. Old farts are like that you know...........

[superkill]

I think a speed cap would be great it would be a level field of play
for everyone.
It would boil down to the shooters abilities.
lets do it!!!!!!!!!

[xtremearchery]

Speed cap could go either way. The faster the bow the more room for error. 5 grains is enough. Even then some of these new bows are going so fast, the bow can't handle 5 grains. My bow goes plenty fast but performs better for me at 5.5-6 grains.

[ALC]

It seems to me that a guy who is five foot six and has a draw length of 28 inches can 'tweek' his equipment and get to about 300 fps with a relatively forgiving bow set at five grains per pound of draw weight. However, a guy who is six foot four and has a draw length of 31 inches can shoot a comparable set up significantly faster with a consequent trajectory advantage. On an outdor 3D course, this can have a profound effect. For example; imagine both men approach a deer out at 46 yards. They both judge the deer to be 41 yards. They both hold and release perfectly. The taller man with the greater speed hits the bottom line of the ten and the shorter guy drops several inches below the line to score and eight (these figures are not exact or based on empirical evidence, but are merely used to make a point). Is this equitable? I think not.

My understanding is that the reason for the 280 fps cap or the five grains per pound were originally imposed to 'level the playing field'. 10 to 20 years ago, they may have been partially effective. The huge advances in technology regarding equipment have rendered this 3D rule no longer effective in 'levelling the playing field'. It seems to me that updating this could have the original desired effect. For instance; modern bows can easily shoot arrows well below five grains per pound safely so that if the maximum speed for categories like 'Open' were raised to something more realistic such as 310 fps, the taller men would have much less of an advantage. So, if the five grains per pound minimum were scrapped, and a cap of 310 were univerally imposed, it may make things at least close to being equitable. Even the shorter men could attain that speed without resorting to five inch brace height bows and the taller guys would have no trouble at all.
We already have a cap which has the modern effect of punishing the short guys.

[jessbennett]

amen al...... :wink:

[timberhunter]

I equate archery setups like building a hotrod diesel pickup, and any car for that matter. How fast you want to go. Depends on how much you want to spend.

Those that cannot afford to go fast are always complaining about the faster guys

There are enough classes for compounds already. Hell I run shoots and I can't remember all the different classes for compounds. I say bring what you got. Whether its a hunting bow or flat out 3D target killer.

We are in it to have fun. When the fun stops, then you should stop.

[jessbennett]

good point it is all in good fun, but.... ........ some of us go to compete, and go to win or at least do our dam best in trying. and guys shooting 350 fps "may" have an advantage over the guy who is tstruggling to make 300 fps, and to have a completely level playing field would be definately a good thing. (and for the record, im one of the ones with a 30 inch draw and shooting a speed demon). i think it should be a speed cap for all classes. just my two cents though.:smile:

[ALC]

I partially agree with some of the opinions posted on this subject. However, I believe that a speed cap would simplify things and not complicate them. I know of many shooters who (through lack of money, ability or whatever reason) have given up trying to compete with those who can afford one of the new bows, new arrows new drop away rests (the list goes on). A telling percentage of these archers have not come back to the sport. I make no judgement about their reasons for quitting, but several have ‘groused’ about the unfairness of equipment et cetera.

It is my understanding that the reason for instituting the current 5 grains per pound or 280 fps was to help ‘level the playing field’ (similar to that used for jockeys riding race horses). If we accept that premise and we want to operate on the assumption that we all want equity, then things have to change. Ten or 20 years ago when the speed cap was instituted, it may have been somewhat effective. That is no longer the case. Most of the competitive factors are beyond our control. We cannot control genetic predisposition, eyesight, height, strength, relative health and fitness and a myriad of other factors. All of these effect the outcome of a 3D competition. However, we can control some factors.

Please consider the following; It seems that a guy who is five foot six with a draw length of 28 inches can ‘tweek’ his equipment and muster about 300 fps with a relatively forgiving brace height of seven inches and five grains per pound of draw weight. However, a guy who is six foot four with a draw length of 31.5 inches can shoot a comparable set-up at much higher speeds with a resultant trajectory advantage (this fact is undeniable and on an outdoor 3D course can have a profound effect). Consider then that these two men are competing against each other. They come to a shot at a deer at 46 yards. They both judge the deer at 41 yards. Both hold and release perfectly. The taller man, with the better trajectory, hits the bottom line of the ten, but the shorter man drops out of the ten and scores an eight (he could conceivably score a five on some targets). Obviously, these figures are not exact or based on pure empirical evidence, but are merely used to make a point. Is this equitable? I think not.

Nearly all of the people, with whom I have conversed on this subject, agree that judging distance is the key factor that separates the top competitors from the rest of the field. Why then, if it is so important, is one group left at such a disadvantage? So, for the shorter and slower shooting person, in order to compete, they must be that much better at judging distance than the taller person (who incidentally already has the advantage of a higher/greater perspective in viewing the target in relation to their position – by virtue of the fact that their eyes are higher and can see more terrain features). This is clearly a factor which can be mitigated by providing a speed cap.

For instance, a speed cap of 310 fps and no five grain limit may be workable. With the recent technological advances in archery and vibration dampening, bows (even older ones) can be rendered safe to shoot arrows significantly lighter than five grains per pound. The shorter archer can now attain the 310 speed rather easily and the taller archer could also comfortably set their bow to conform. Let us control what we are able to in order to make things closer to equitable for ALL archers. To ignore the undeniable factor of trajectory advantage for some competitors is irresponsible.

[p&p]

We aready have speed caps in 3-D shoots IE:stick bows,we also have classes for those who want it all -open or unlimited , If you dont want to hunt with these boys choose a different catagory. But dont punish those that seek STATE OF THE ART,or perfection. Each to his own, thats why the classes.

[willyqbc]

being one of those who have the benefit of a long draw length I have to say that I would have no problem with a speed cap. However, i would not be in favor of a cap of 310 for the simple reason that if leveling the field is the goal then why do we need to set a cap at a speed that will encourage people to push the limits of their equipment to potentially dangerous set-ups?? If we are to have a speed cap I would be in favour of a slower cap...maybe in the neighbourhood of 290fps. This should not cut out those who use their hunting bows on course and don't want to change for a shoot. Keeping the "one bow" shooters happy and coming out to these shoots is a consideration we need to keep in mind.

Allthough I am in favour of a speed cap those of you who really think it will level the playing field are kidding yourselves. The long draw archer will still have it easier due to being able to pull much less poundage to make the speed cap. But the speed cap is one variable that can be taken out of the equation.

Chris

[Bow Walker]

Post #35 - ALC's reply to the subject at hand........

I don't agree with the example of the two archers that was used to illustrate the point being made. The object of 3D (imho) is to better yourself as an archer, as a competitor, and as a hunter. Part of the growing and improvement of a competitor's skill set is to be able to accurately judge distance whether it be yardage or meters.

Making the shot, judging the distance, remaining calm under pressure - these are part of the set of skills needed to be in a 3D Fun Shoot or any shoot for that matter. At any skill level.

Anyone who shoots a 3D Shoot (for fun or for serious) is, by definition, a competitor. Whether the competitor is trying to beat the other people in the same class - or the competitor is trying to beat his/her last score (a' la golf) they are still "competitors".

Don't try and tell me that the raw beginner with a bow that is out of the '80's does not feel the pressure of competition - either from others or from within. It just ain't so.

At the most recent 3D shoot (Nanaimo F&G Pumpkin shoot) there was a young lady in the group behind us that had a compound bow that Mr Allen must have been working on (it looked that old). She was overheard to say that this was only her second 3D event and the first that she had done "outdoors".

She shot every target - including the 50 yard Antelope - both in the morning as well as the afternoon. She was (and is) a competitor in the truest sense of the word.

BTW - I saw her try for the Antelope in the afternoon - she was short by 35 yards at least. But she was determined to compete. She will be a much better archer for her sense of competitiveness.

Should the playing field be "levelled"? Not on your life!

[Bowzone_Mikey]

I was against it when it was talked about it a while ago ...and i am still against it ....

You wanna compete with the national champs ... you wanna "level the feild" ...you wanna pee in the tall grass .... I can go on and on with these cheesy ass lines .... my point is ...

get yer ass out on the range and put in the time that the championship archers put in ... Each and every big dog I know can call distance to within a yard and each one of them executes a textbook shot time and time again ... this is why they are the big dogs ...If you cant judge distance you are not gonna score well at 3D ...it dont matter if you got 300 fps bow or a 150 fps bow ..If you cant execute a good shot repeatedly ...you are not gonna score well at 3D.

I personally think a speed limit is assinine if one really wants to level the feild put a weight restriction on of 70 pounds and a min arrow weight of 5 gpp. Oh wait ... its allready in place

[Eagle1]

SPEED CAP!!!!!!!!!!

You can't use those black arrows, I can't see where you hit.
You can't use that release, it releases better than mine.
You can't use that arrow rest ,it drops ,mine doesn't.
You can't use that scope sight, you can see the 12 ring.
Lets all be asimulated so we can all be the same,that way John shoots the same as Jane, no one wins, no one loses.
BORING,no challange left.
Rules are already there, get out and practise shooting and range estimation.
No one is good enough to win every time, just be as good as you can be to the best of your ability.
Just cause a bow shoots 150 fps or 400 fps doesn't mean the fast one will win every time.
I know alot of very good shooters that shoot slow bows and win,cause they can judge distance within an inch and shoot 1" groups at 90 meters all day long
Archery is supposed to be fun, let it.

[Gateholio]

3D = IPSC


:cool::eek::cool:

[oldtimer]

Al ,I disagree with the assumption that the tall guy has the advantage. In my early years of math and geometry it seems to me that the longer the lever the more force but controlling it past the fulcrum became more difficult. Am I right ?
Besides you get to stand up to shoot under that branch out there and I have to kneel down, how fair is that big Al ??
I shoot with some of the fastest shooters in the province and some of the best in Canada and I don't believe I would be any closer to beating them if they had to shoot slower. Mike

[jessbennett]

thats kinda funny, telling a guy who already is a national outdoor 3-d champion to get out and practice more..............:roll::biggrin: hahahahah

[sealevel]

here are a few thoughs i have about 3d in general. Are numbers are rapidly decreaseing. Why because we are making 3d for a select few good shooter. We are making the courses to hard stretching are shots beyound what they should be. A lot of the courses in the south were plain redeculess. (If anyone shot mine it was likely the worst) I would like to see a speed rule say 300fps not because i have a short draw. But so everyone can compete and feel comfortable shooting 3d again.... Some of the enderby guys went to the rinhart shoot and learned a bit. They came back and set up a nice course 28 targets a round they shot 2 targets from the same stake on some. It wasn`t a marathon to walk around and resonable shots. If we want 3d to grow we better start making 3d for everone to enjoy. I think we have to start making our shoots easyer to get around and easyer shots. If i am setting up a course next year it will be a whole lot more user friendly.

[ALC]

The last point I made in my last message was that to ignore the undeniable factor of trajectory advantage for some competitors is irresponsible. Nothing I have read thus far has swayed me from that premise. I read Bow Walker (#38) talk of disagreeing with the two archers of different draw lengths, but what were you disagreeing with? Can you deny that one archer has an innate and unfair advantage that is controllable by our archery organizations? I agree that individual archers are responsible for their own skill sets whether for competition or for hunting, but they have conscious choice as to the extent of their skill acquisition. However, they cannot choose to have a longer set of arms. That is why it is not equitable. You make the point that judging yardage is a skill that we should acquire. Who can disagree with that? Even the best archers misjudge target distances periodically. I have personally won the last four BC 3D Championships in the Masters Open category and every man, who finished in the top three in the Open, Unlimited and Masters Open, was shooting a fast bow and they all misjudged yardages significantly (me included). I have also won three of the last four Canadian 3D Championships in the Masters Open category and I can also tell you with certainty that all of the top three competitors in the Open, Unlimited and Masters Open shot fast bows and misjudged yardages significantly. In every case, the taller men with longer draw lengths had a controllable advantage over the shorter men.

Bowzone Mikey(#39) was also interesting to read. Apparently, he feels that having a 70 lb draw weight and five grains per pound restriction makes things equitable. These restrictions currently do little to ‘level the field’. There is still a significant trajectory issue with longer versus shorter draw lengths. He is also correct in his assumption that you need to execute a good shot every time and do well at judging distance to win at 3D. Mikey, all of the top shooters are good at those things. When you consider that the winning margin at major shoots is usually far less than one percent, any advantage that a person gets without earning it (like trajectory) should be eliminated as best we can.

Finally, Oldtimer (#42) is a good (and old) friend of mine and he is correct in his assertion that some shots are easier for vertically challenged people because they may not have to kneel. I have not kept track, but it seems that an equal number of short-man-unfriendly shots exist out there. These discrepancies should be controlled by the clubs sponsoring the shoots. I am not sure about the fulcrum reference, Mike. I do not see how your eyesight to the target, for judging distance, will be influenced by any fulcrum. Besides, it is a lot of fun shooting with you when we all get to a shot and I can stand when you and your boy (and soon your grandson) have to crouch/kneel/hunch-over et cetera.

[Bow Walker]

[quote=ALC;201309].... I read Bow Walker (#38) talk of disagreeing with the two archers of different draw lengths, but what were you disagreeing with? Can you deny that one archer has an innate and unfair advantage that is controllable by our archery organizations? I agree that individual archers are responsible for their own skill sets whether for competition or for hunting, but they have conscious choice as to the extent of their skill acquisition. However, they cannot choose to have a longer set of arms. That is why it is not equitable. You make the point that judging yardage is a skill that we should acquire. Who can disagree with that? Even the best archers misjudge target distances periodically. I have personally won the last four BC 3D Championships in the Masters Open category and every man, who finished in the top three in the Open, Unlimited and Masters Open, was shooting a fast bow and they all misjudged yardages significantly (me included). I have also won three of the last four Canadian 3D Championships in the Masters Open category and I can also tell you with certainty that all of the top three competitors in the Open, Unlimited and Masters Open shot fast bows and misjudged yardages significantly. In every case, the taller men with longer draw lengths had a controllable advantage over the shorter men.quote]

ALC,
My disagreement stems from your assertion that because both shooters (in your example) misjudged the yardage, the longer armed shooter has an advantage because of the faster bow.

IF the slow-bow shooter had judged the distance correctly the results would negate any advantage of the faster bow. Guess-timation needs constant exercise to work properly - I know because I suffer as a result of sluggish guess-timating.

IMHO it all comes down to who is the better distance reader. That is the shooter who will win consistently. Each and every time.

[jessbennett]

bowwalker, are you saying that if BOTH archers misjudged the yardage, there would still be no advantage going to the longer draw archer with the faster setup?????? of course the faster shooting setup would have an advantage.


yes there is rules in place, 280fps, or 70 lbs @ 5 grains /pound. it is common sense to figure out that a person w/ a 30-31 inch draw length shooting a 70 pound bow at 5 grains is going to have a definate advantage over someone w/ a 27-28 inch draw shooting the same arrow weight and poundage. enough of an advantage to be the difference between a 10 or an 8. that can equate into a winning or losing.

how is it fair that both archers misjudged the yardage the same but one wins because he has a longer draw length and a faster bow????

why not have a 300 fps cap for everyone. NO advantage, all yardage estimation and shooting skill. no advantages for anyone. ;)

[Bow Walker]

bowwalker, are you saying that if BOTH archers misjudged the yardage, there would still be no advantage going to the longer draw archer with the faster setup?????? of course the faster shooting setup would have an advantage.


yes there is rules in place, 280fps, or 70 lbs @ 5 grains /pound. it is common sense to figure out that a person w/ a 30-31 inch draw length shooting a 70 pound bow at 5 grains is going to have a definate advantage over someone w/ a 27-28 inch draw shooting the same arrow weight and poundage. enough of an advantage to be the difference between a 10 or an 8. that can equate into a winning or losing.

how is it fair that both archers misjudged the yardage the same but one wins because he has a longer draw length and a faster bow????

why not have a 300 fps cap for everyone. NO advantage, all yardage estimation and shooting skill. no advantages for anyone. ;)

Jesse...
No - that's not what I'm getting at. I agree that the faster bow is a bit more forgiving on misjudged yardage, but if 'slo-bow' was a better guess-timater he'd win every time.

Now - if you really want to "level the playing field" all that is required is marked yardage...:wink:

[sammy99]

I have enjoyed keeping up with the discussion around this post for the last few weeks. What I find very interesting are the numbers being bantyed around for a proposed speed cap.

The majority of discussion centers around a cap between 300 and 280 fps. If you are a male shooter, these numbers make sense. However, I don't see one post that takes the terms competitor or archer to include the female or young archers on the course. If you are going to talk about levelling the playing field between longer draw, taller, stronger archers (and I am fully behind the arguments in the post that assert that these archers have a distinct advantage in both genders) and the smaller and shorter draw archers, you need to discuss the female and young archers as well.

As far as I know, (or at least that is what willyqbc fills my head with) I have one of the fastest set ups for a female 3D archer. I am getting around 295fps out of my 5 grains per pound, 29.5 inch draw 46 pound set up. However I shoot with many women that are very lucky to achieve 230 fps. You want to talk advantages? Levelling the field? Up to 65 feet per second faster is a far greater advantage that any 10 fps difference that male archers may experience.

Cubs and cadets have a peak draw weight of 60lbs. If you have kids in school, you know that kids in this age group can vary hugely is size and strength, depending on both hormones and genes, and a kid that can pull the higher weights and acheive the higher speeds has a distinct advantage over the smaller kids. At the 3D nationals in Lethbridge, I shot with a cub who was smaller, pulling 30 lbs and getting around 210 out of his bow, and the cub that won the category was at least 6 foot, pulling 59.95lbs and getting near 290fps.

My point to this rant is that all archers, male, female and young, are different. They have different skills and weaknesses. You will never level the playing field without archery dying a slow death from over regulation, or creating a race of humans that are all genetically identical. I totally agree with Sealevel's earlier post. The focus needs to shift from making every 3D course a marathon test of stamina, with rock climbing and 45 plus yard shots, to events that will attract all of the different types of archers to come and compete and improve the skills they have, as well as develop new ones.

Shoot Straight,
Sam

[jessbennett]

also well put sam....:wink:.........

[Bow Walker]

Yup Sam - when all is said and done I agree that Archery would benefit as a sport from some sort of 'promotional' and/or fun/family type shoots. What better way to achieve that than having an Introductory Level 3D League.

New archers could hone skills, get used to equipment, enjoy shooting, explore different types of equipment, and generally have a good time while 'learning' to become competitive. Marked yardage/meters would go a long way to attract newbies of all ages.

Shorter stature archers are all to often forgotten when most clubs set up a 3D course - at least here on the Island. I've been a numerous shoots where most in the group were able to either shoot over or around an obstruction, but the vertically challenged person could not even see most of the 8-ring, let alone the 10-ring in a so called "hunting scenario".

Makes it difficult to enjoy the day when anywhere from 10% to 15% of the targets are just not shootable for some people.

At the Nanaimo Pumpkin shoot just last weekend there was a lady in the group behind us (I mentioned her earlier) who was shooting a compound finger bow. She had to use the same stakes to shoot from as all the other compound shooters. Trouble was that her bow was in the 36 - 42 lb range. Some targets she barely made the distance to the animal, let alone hit within the scoring rings.

It was only her good nature that kept her at it, especially in the afternoon round when the shooting was much more difficult due to lack of light (low clouds) and the fact that the targets were back in under the trees.

My tired old eyes were suffering by the end of the day. Just ask Oldtimer, he knows whereof I speak.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

ok ALC ... you are a big dog in the grand scheme of things .... so then you know Jude Hooey ... a woman that is multiple national Champion in her division, has a 25" draw ...explain it to me .... her draw is not long ... nor is it heavy ...she can judge distance and execute a shot. I am sure you know Sam Inbrogno ... he shoots a 28" draw at a fairly light weight ...he does pretty well too dontcha think?
the 3 MBO big dogs in western Canada (Shane Cody and Derek)and what the hell Alain from Quebec(the top 4 shooters from Nats in lethbridge in 2k6 ... by the way Derek beat Alain (2nd place) by ten points with a clean miss that tournament(Alain was the only one that didnt miss a target in that tourney).... I use them because I know them well all have 28" or 28.5 draws and light weight 55-60 pounds ...and all people above I mentioned are shooting at 295 - 300 fps ... its pretty common train of thought that anything above that speed is unpredictdible


So personally I find your logic flawed and unstabstiated

[oldtimer]

This is a great post !
AlC. , The fulcrum reference was in regards to the distance from your rest to your nock at full draw. If you as a shorter draw length ( really short ) moves your release .010" up or down , left or right. You will be closer to the 10X than I am at a really long draw length moving the same .010". Draw it out on paper and you will see what I mean. Simple geometry. Great discussion and as always the first female in the discussion makes the most sense. My grandkids got awesome genes. Mike

[Bowzone_Mikey]

This is a great post !
. My grandkids got awesome genes. Mike

From Sammys side maybe .... ;)

[oldtimer]

BowZone Mikey I do not consider 55-60 Pounds light weight. Give your head a shake man.45 to 50 is light. Mike

[Bowzone_Mikey]

most youll find are maxed out at 70pounds ...or more

[Bigbear]

I think that a Person has to Pick the equipment, that he or she wishes to use. That includes Bow, arrows, rest ,site, etc. Then set the equipment up to get the best performance out of that set up. Of course the performance will be determined by draw length, and poundage pulled. The next thing is to learn to shoot the set up to best of their ability. The more regulations That is put in the more people move out. By all this is debated there will regulations, on color of socks, hats, and crying towels we are allowed to use. A good number of people go to shoots to have fun and socialize with friends, and have a good time. For these people most of regulations mute. Then there is the Number of us who Care and try do our best to shoot well and compete.
I'm not for or against a speed cap, My point is learn to shoot what you have to best of your ability. As in hunting you can have the biggest, baddest Broadhead, but if you can't hit the kill zone you are sunk. Or a race car driver depending on his ability a faster car doesn't mean he will win more races.
Uncle AL shoots Phenominal with his set up, Sammy99, as well WillyBC, and there is a few others ( to many to mention) They shoot their set up's to best they can. Me I'm still Practising . Haven't reached the best of my Ability yet . Some Day AL. :lol:
Kelly

[threedhunter]

alc , maybe what needs to be done is we all shoot the same bow.imho, we all have skills that we have aquired, so shoot one bow, everyone shoots the same bow, no speed advantage or equipment advantage,same bow same arrow. should sort out pretty quick the best of the best.that said , sealevel has the best point, make the courses more user friendly, we all have to work the next day. looks pretty bad , we show up wore out from our "weekend of fun".sammy99, also as a coach , the kids shouldn't be shootingover 50 lbs until they are done growing. can cause joint damage later in life. level the field?the largest problem that is apparent is that no matter how equitably the leveling is done,there will always be someone that sees an opportunity to try to beat the rule, gets caught then complains about how the rule isn't fair.the kiss principle really does work.if we are all required to use the same gear , the only advantage would be to those that practised their yardage estimating.:eek:

[oldtimer]

maybe what needs to be done is we all shoot the same bow.imho, we all have skills that we have aquired, so shoot one bow

???? ARE YOU SERIOUS ? uNFORTUNATELY WE ARE NOT ALL BUILT THE SAME. My draw length is 31 1/2 " Al's is probably 27" how can we shoot the same equipment ?
Mike

[jessbennett]

as oldtimer said, how is this possible????? one can shoot the same bow, but a 27 inch draw, compared to a 31 inch draw??????:roll: then it all comes back to the whole reason this thread was started. :neutral:






alc , maybe what needs to be done is we all shoot the same bow.imho, we all have skills that we have aquired, so shoot one bow, everyone shoots the same bow, no speed advantage or equipment advantage,same bow same arrow. should sort out pretty quick the best of the best.that said , sealevel has the best point, make the courses more user friendly, we all have to work the next day. looks pretty bad , we show up wore out from our "weekend of fun".sammy99, also as a coach , the kids shouldn't be shootingover 50 lbs until they are done growing. can cause joint damage later in life. level the field?the largest problem that is apparent is that no matter how equitably the leveling is done,there will always be someone that sees an opportunity to try to beat the rule, gets caught then complains about how the rule isn't fair.the kiss principle really does work.if we are all required to use the same gear , the only advantage would be to those that practised their yardage estimating.:eek: