Predator management....what's gone wrong?

[bearvalley]

I want to throw this out to the hunting community on here and get some thoughts from some of the guys that have been there, done that (IronNoggin, proguide66 and chilcotin hillbilly are a few that come to mind) and hear what they think of BC's current predator issues.
Even the "I don't shoot what I don't eat " guys should feel free to get in on this because the times coming when there might not be much shooting and eating if we carry on down the path we're on.
The Anti hunting lurkers don't need to be shy either.

I'll throw out a few of my observations, for what they're worth.
I've had the chance to watch wolves a fair bit in a couple of different environments, northern BC & the Yukon as well the Central interior part of our province.
I think there's a big difference in wolf behavior and in some areas wolves are a lot worse than in others.

The northern wolves still act like wolves. They are wildlife dependent. They maintain pack structure and are territorial over large areas. The major problem in some of the northern region is that there are too many wolves and wildlife is feeling the pressure. In the past their numbers have been dropped and I'm sure that will happen again.

Now we go south.
Wolves are living in close proximity to a lot more people and livestock has been thrown in front of them as another food source. Hunting and trapping seasons have been liberalized, in some places you can hunt wolves 12 months of the year, trap on private for the same amount of time and there is NBL.
This sounds like the solution to too many wolves.
At one time I agreed....not so much anymore.

What I see is that a firestorm was created in some parts of the Interior (other parts of the province as well but I'm going on my personal localized observations).

Heres how it played out;
-the Interior had some exceptionally mild winters that favored the growth of wildlife populations
-the numbers of wolves grew to match the food base. Most wolves lived on ungulates but there have always been beef eaters here as well.
-the larger wolf population became noticeable, wildlife populations started to decline and livestock predation increased. Everyone that spent time in the outdoors commented on the surplus of wolves.
-As wildlife continued to crash, more wolves became livestock dependent. Ranchers got on the band wagon and demanded a solution to the wolf problem.
I know, I was one of them.
-hunting season went to year around NBL and all season private land wolf trapping came in.

The one key point to remember in managing livestock killing wolves and for that matter
wolves that have put a wildlife species at risk is "whole pack removal".
Anything less than that is a waste of time and does more damage than good. I know this will piss some one off but there are damn few good wolf trappers out there and a bunch more that are contributing to making a mess.
There are some.
Remember, I'm talking traps, not snares as snares can only be used by trappers in the legal trapping season, therefor the use of snares for livestock mitigation work is more limited.

So...as the shooting and trapping commenced a noticeable change in wolves started to show.
Packs were fragmented and restructured into smaller packs, and more of them. The number of livestock specific wolves increased. In some areas these wolves have now evolved into a bunch of non territorial culls. They have been educated by traps & snares, to the point of feeding only once on a fresh kill, never returning to feed a second time. Their dominance level has been lowered to the point that no longer is any conventional lure an attractant to them. All the lure does is turn them into dribbling curs as they slink away.
So much for liberalized trapping and shooting as the solution to managing wolf predation.

I feel that we need to tell government that we need wildlife management and a good start on that would be to bring back predator management in such a form as BC had in the past. A handful of specialists dealing with this mess is what is needed, not a bunch of band aids stuck on a wound. To go farther (and using a four letter word)... 1080 needs to come back as a tool in the toolbox.
When it was used in the past, along with traps, whole pack removal was efficiently accomplished.
What a lot of the uneducated public does not unsterstand is that a lot more wolves have been unnecessarily created and killed than would have been if the combined use of traps, snares and 1080 had stayed in place.

Im interested in what others think....and bear management can be brought into the discussion as well.

[Whonnock Boy]

Interesting observations, and quite likely, very realistic.

You're not going to get much of an argument from anyone here, maybe on the 1080, but not much else. It's the rest of the planet that we are up against. Yes, I said planet. Local conservation sites are filled with people from all over the globe, that are self described wolf experts, and they can put a lot of pressure on local governments. Emotions rule their thought process. Maybe once local beef hits 10 bucks a pound for regular ground due to wolf caused cattle losses, we're not going to gain any traction with them. The masses need to be educated.

As for the bears, black in particular, bag limits should be increased. Grizzly bear hunting is almost a lost cause. Get them while you can.

[Surrey Boy]

I'm all in favour of predator hunting, and don't think it does any harm to lupine social structure. I'd be very open to extermination of specific populations, but wouldn't want tax money devoted to it.

That said, let the ranchers have a wolf war. Improve wildlife and livestock harvest for everyone!

[Gateholio]

Bruce Lambs great book- Bushplanes and Outposts- told of the use of 1080 on frozen lakes. Worked great, as the wolves got the 1080 laced meat and they had almost no "incidental kill"

When the lakes melted, the 1080 was rendered inert in the volume of water.

The problem is politics these days. And that's it.

[dracb]

Actually I think you will find that a program is in place where specially trained trappers are being employed by the rancher's association to respond to attacks on livestock. One of the qualifications for trappers applying for these positions was experience at removing entire packs of wolves. As I understand these trappers operate under special permits allowing them to trap 12 months of the year. I would be surprised if killing snares are denied to them given their effectiveness.

Some of the training these people have to undergo pointed out that not all wolves in the pack may be responsible for attacks on live stock even if they join in the feast. I do not remember any clear cut recommendations on how to effectively separate the killers from the non-killing feasters.

When I took the livestock/predator verification course I was somewhat surprised at the relatively small number of verified attacks on livestock reported by the instructors. I do not remember the exact number, but it was in the low hundreds. This in bold contrast with the thousands as I had previously perceived the problem to be. Granted these are the "verified" attacks and the total number is probably somewhat/substantially greater. Low matter the number the deleterious effect is just as great on the individual rancher whose herd is predated on.

[BgBlkDg]

Mike, (BV), that is a simply outstanding post and my gut tells me that you are correct in your summation of what your extensive, realtime experience has shown you. I support the use of 1080 and any other means of wolf population control and even much greater removal of bears....and, I AM a "bear fan".

However, as Gates, points out, our REAL problem IS demographic and "political" in nature and the "hippy" is our REAL foe. I know the enormous damage to sound wildlife management such scumbags as these creatures have caused in the Kootenays and they ARE winning the war for public support.....i.e., "iconic" animals, etc.

I dunno, we need a whole approach to this based on widespread public support and I doubt this is now possible in BC, given the huge demographic and cultural changes since Canada's Centennial and what is happening now.

[Piperdown]

321 and heeeers Jazzy

[Drillbit]

I agree with the OP's observations.

1080 needs to be used and heli-hunting too.

Opening up seasons and bag limits isn't going to change anything for wolves as they are so hard to hunt.

More black bears need to be shot too. Opening up bag limits on them can work, as they are easily found along FSR's in the sprig.

[kebes]

I read an article a few years ago that suggested the use of 1080 has a very low impact on animals that aren't canine. I'm sure there are those here who would know if that's accurate or not? If so, I'm in favour.

While it's not popular, scrap the mandatory removal of blackbear meat.... I bet we'd see a few more dead bears and a few more fawns and calves.

....just my relatively uneducated opinion.

[steveo]

321 and heeeers JazzyI think it is too hunting related for her participation, too many fixed factors to debate.

[Walking Buffalo]

"I feel that we need to tell government that we need wildlife management and a good start on that would be to bring back predator management in such a form as BC had in the past."


Yes. How we control predator populations is not the hard part. Having the authority to do so is the lost factor.






The problem is politics these days. And that's it.


Yes, and as importantly, No.

The desire to change predator management strategies runs much deeper than public or political perception.
The scientific community has a large faction committed to eliminating the hunting of all Wildlife.
What we are experiencing now is the leading edge of the well thought out strategy to achieve this goal.


Many Wildlife managers from around the world have been promoting and are being successful in having jurisdictions adopt what is called by some the
"Compassionate Wildlife Management Model."
In fact the US Fish and Wildlife Service has recently included this model into their policies.

Others include conservation groups such as the Nature Conservancy of Canada.

In a simplified description of the model.
There will be NO hunting of predator species.
There will only be population control culls of prey species when "Natural" predation is insufficient.
Wildlife will NOT be managed to procure a huntable excess.
There is to be NO habitat enhancement.
It is assumed that humans in general no longer hunt for food, but for recreation. *

The idea is to let wildlife live and evolve without human interference. The complete removal of humans from directly interacting with Nature.
Take special consideration of the *. This is a Key assumption and mitigating position in the plan to end hunting.

The problem is SO much bigger and further entrenched than the hunting community realizes.


Just recently the USFWS implemented control of wildlife management on federal lands from the state.
The first step was to reduce predator harvest.
The reasoning includes this comment.

"hunter demands for more animals — moose, deer or caribou — no longer justify predator control on refuge lands"

[bearvalley]

The desire to change predator management strategies runs much deeper than public or political perception.
The scientific community has a large faction committed to eliminating the hunting of all Wildlife.
What we are experiencing now is the leading edge of the well thought out strategy to achieve this goal.

The problem is SO much bigger and further entrenched than the hunting community realizes.

What Walking Buffalo says here is very, very true.
There is a group that has the end goal in mind of eliminating all hunting of wildlife and will use the mismanagement of predators at the expense of all other living creatures to achieve their goal.
These same people have managed to worm their way into positions where they can call themselves "Wildlife Managers".
A prime example of that is the former director of the United States Fish and Wildlife Service.
Today she is the president and CEO of the Defenders of Wildlife.
We have more of the same mindset here at home.

[charlie_horse]

When push comes to shove how do you deal with that other than simply breaking the law?

[Jagermeister]

Good post Mike I agree with your analysis up to the 1080 point.
Las you stated, the wolves packs have fragmented and one of the traits obtained is bait shyness. As you can see, 1080 would be ineffective as they would avoid the bait.
Ed Ziderich used to do a yearly winter cull on Dragon and French mountains and the area down to Moffit Lake. I low this does not seem like the answer you would like but may be the only solution short of mass extinction of the wild food source.

[scotty30-06]

I'm curious about the actual numbers of calf killers among wolves,cougar,G bear and B bear I imagine wolves would be the leader in that group....would be better to see "ranches" put in place to raise and release certain species in areas you need them.....they have all this money to fight against hunters instead of helping us conserve and manage wildlife numbers....allow hunting but their would be nothing wrong with releasing higher numbers of healthy animals into the wild to help jump start populations where needed..imo

[Bugle M In]

I'm with you.
1080 does seem the most practical solution....meaning dollars spent = efficiency in removing wolves.
But, as others state, there is an entire other problem related to public pressure/opinion.
And, I agree, over time, we now probably have "Anti's" inside the Ministry, further creating problems down the road.
And lastly, and we all saw this, in regards to the GO's Allocation, we, as hunters "don't have much say"!

Now, I am not trying to bring the GO Allocation into debate here, as that is time for another discussion/debate/fight.
But, if trying to set up a "Push" for a "proper" predator control proposition......
We need to all stand together, meaning GO's, GOABC's, Cattle/Rancher's and Resident Hunter's.

Even though I have issues with both GOABC (not all GO's) and Rancher's (grazing leases etc), I still have to admit to myself,
that in regards to "Predator Issues" and resolving and implementing a proper program, against the majority of the "public",
we will have to be united, and fight the other fights at a different time.
IMO

[Jagermeister]

How many of you have diverged from hunting moose to harken to the call of the wolves and their pursuit? Not many. Peer pressure from hunting partners dictate the focus most often. Their focus is not to to hunt wolves which impacts their hunting success.
The problem with poison is that it is not species selective. It can take out least populous predator like coyotes, Lynx and bobcat, Martin and fisher.
I think an effective alternative would be a bounty on an escalating scale. The more you bring in at a time, the 2nd pays higher than the first, the 3rd pays higher than the 2nd and so on. The incentive had to be lucrative to generate the interest to cause hunters to get out.

[Gateholio]

There is one segment of the population that could use whatever means they wish to reduce predators and get away with it. They like eating moose meat, too! :)

[Bear Chaser]

There is one segment of the population that could use whatever means they wish to reduce predators and get away with it. They like eating moose meat, too! :)

Thats a good idea.

[Timbow]

I think you are right, the wolf population needs to be addressed and 1080 should be added to target areas and packs. IMO, First Nations need to be involved if this is to gain any ground. I think with the FN on board, the current government would be more inclined to participate.

[bearvalley]

The problem with poison is that it is not species selective. It can take out least populous predator like coyotes, Lynx and bobcat, Martin and fisher.

Dennis, there are two different scenarios for 1080 use.
One is to blanket cover a large area for a general population reduction such as was done in the 50's and 60's.
I am not in favor of that as that is where you get large numbers of incidental kills of species like coyotes, Lynx, fisher etc.
The other is the site specific use of 1080 when a problem pack is being targeted. When this was still legal, it was most effective when used in conjunction with traps and sometimes snares. The idea behind this method was to pin a pack member or two to a tree with a trap and hold the rest of the pack in place long enough for the baits to do their job.
I spent some time in the past with a few of BC's predator specialists, both in and out of a CO uniform, and can say this method was effective.
Once in a while a non target species bit the dust but it was nothing compared to what's going on today.

[Corb89]

I'm curious about the actual numbers of calf killers among wolves,cougar,G bear and B bear I imagine wolves would be the leader in that group....
Almost impossible to tell..there are cows,calves and bulls, every year that simply don't make it back...the reasons are never a sure thing. Ive personally witnessed 3 black bears that were preying on cattle, and hundreds and hundreds that weren't. i know cougars are hard on horses, can't say ive ever found any "for sure" cattle kills.

[Bigdoggdon]

They say because of predation a moose calf only has a 20-30% chance of surviving its first year. Imagine how good the hunting would be if every year we had 3-4 times as many animals around. Its a shame that there isn't much incentive for hunters to hunt wolves. Other than them being the occasional "target of opportunity", very few hunters actually go "wolf hunting".

[Corb89]

I wonder if its possible to get something started amongst us? a wolf contest of some sort? maybe inspire some to get involved if there is a prize?

[guest]

I think you are right, the wolf population needs to be addressed and 1080 should be added to target areas and packs. IMO, First Nations need to be involved if this is to gain any ground. I think with the FN on board, the current government would be more inclined to participate.

BV raises some good points here .... I like it ..

That said, the above post I believe would be paramount and would be the strongest voice to do some thing about the tremendous increase in Wolves and slaughter of ungulates etc by Wolves. With no F N involved support ... The use of 1080 will continue to be deep sixed.
What say the Keepers of the Land on this issue.

CT

[bearvalley]

I think you are right, the wolf population needs to be addressed and 1080 should be added to target areas and packs. IMO, First Nations need to be involved if this is to gain any ground. I think with the FN on board, the current government would be more inclined to participate.


BV raises some good points here .... I like it ..

That said, the above post I believe would be paramount and would be the strongest voice to do some thing about the tremendous increase in Wolves and slaughter of ungulates etc by Wolves. With no F N involved support ... The use of 1080 will continue to be deep sixed.
What say the Keepers of the Land on this issue.

CT
Timbow & curly top, you have both nailed down the key to the political gate. There's never been a better time to push for wildlife and predator management than right now while we're facing provincial declines in game populations.
FN's and government have made a lot of noise about a provincial moose recovery plan.
Maybe we should see to it that they follow through with a recovery.
Wildlife and livestock will both benefit if it's done right.
Predator management needs to be done at the provincial stakeholder level...not by a cattlemans group with a handful of trappers.

[Drillbit]

They say because of predation a moose calf only has a 20-30% chance of surviving its first year. Imagine how good the hunting would be if every year we had 3-4 times as many animals around. Its a shame that there isn't much incentive for hunters to hunt wolves. Other than them being the occasional "target of opportunity", very few hunters actually go "wolf hunting".

"wolf hunting" is easy to talk about, but very hard to produce results.

[bearvalley]

"wolf hunting" is easy to talk about, but very hard to produce results.

Exactly...we've gone through several years of high wolf numbers and some guys have gotten revved up to go shoot or trap a few. i have a feeling that in some areas of high wolf densities this has had a backwards affect leading to fragmented packs. This in turn has spun off to a larger number of smaller packs with no truly defined territory competing with each other.
The end result in places is more wolves and etremely wary, educated wolves.

[Steve W]

I’ve long thought one of the keys to better predator management is not to have the main goals to increase moose/wildlife populations to increase hunter opportunity or to increase the number of cows that can be put out on the public range lands. My experience has shown me that your average suburban resident doesn’t seem to want to support those as a goals. They as a group hold huge sway over what the gov’t decides on issues like this. Healthy, balanced wildlife populations and healthy habitat seem to be more important to them once they are educated beyond the Disneyesque images.
I also wouldn’t want to see the gov’t to be involved as the boots on the ground, traps in hand people in any control program. They won’t fund it adequately or put enough human resources behind it. It’ll mean resources will be taken from some other project and redirected at a control program, resulting in losses in some other area. There are people who can take on the removal of the predators more efficiently. Gov’t would be needed to oversee and monitor the program/results and do the reporting back to the public
The anti-cull folks are really a bunch who want to have their cake and eat it too. Everything in perfect harmony with happy endings all around. It’s never been that way. Not to say there aren’t some valid points to their arguments, but their “our way or the protest will start” approach is a tough nut to work around. They will keep 1080 off the table. Most gov’t folks who are involved in looking at predator management, specifically wolves know 1080 is a key piece. It just isn’t on the table anymore at the political level and I think it would be a waste of effort to try to work towards it.
The FN piece is critical, but new ground with lots of bad feelings on both sides. No easy solutions there. Maybe if the harvest piece is removed from the end goal some progress could be made?

[Rotorwash]

I go out at least a couple days a month to hunt wolves in the interior and have had zero success. Maybe there are others like me who could benefit from more education in techniques and proper setups to be more effective.

[Bugle M In]

I go out at least a couple days a month to hunt wolves in the interior and have had zero success. Maybe there are others like me who could benefit from more education in techniques and proper setups to be more effective.

Even people who trap them, who have lots of experience, will even tell you that Wolves are very hard to trap.
I think for most who have taken a Wolf, it has been a case of "lucky opportunity"....being at the right place at the right time.
Not saying that they are not huntable, and agree, that we as hunter's don't put in the time to "target" wolves specifically,
but wolves are/can be masters of being "ghosts" at times.
Thus the reason for the OP, that just "hunting them" is not going to work....not very well/effectively.
And, in some areas, some Trappers choose not to go after Wolves....don't ask me why.
The removal of an entire pack/s in particular watersheds throughout the province (thin them back out) is probably what is needed.
A wolf from this pack or that pack isn't going to make a difference, and as some state, may inevitably be leading to more problems.
Saying that, I'd still shoot if the opportunity arose.

[bearvalley]

Bugle M In, you see the picture.
In no way am I saying we need to stop hunting wolves or that we need a province wide eradication.
We do need wildlife management and the management of predatory species that is run in such a way that when a problem is identified the removal of the problem is 100%.
This is needed for both excessive predation to livestock and wildlife.

[adriaticum]

Great op,
In principle I would be against any "government programs" designed to manage wildlife or control predators.
Not because I am against predator control but because I'm against dependence on government handouts/solutions for anything.
When ever anyone thinks "government should do something about it" that's government dependence.
I would prefer that the hunting community organizes properly and is responsible for management of wildlife and predator control.
If areas have wolf hunting 12 months of the year and NBL that the bottom line is that there isn't enough people hunting them.
I guess we are all waiting for someone else (government) to do something about it.
Hunting wolves one by one and trapping them doesn't do a whole lot but it helps.
Ask those who have eliminated wolves how they hunt them (Europe comes to mind).

[BgBlkDg]

I fully support government agencies dealing with wildlife and environmental management as the issue there is FUNDING and the never-ceasing sniveling of various immigrant-refugee-foreigner groups seems to get the $$$$ that should be allocated to our resource management agencies.

The problem, in the social sense is that far too many foreigners have been allowed into BC and now have considerable political clout which allows them to get various grants from monies that once were directed, as they should be to environmental management by those who know what they are about.

However, I am not optimistic about any reversal of this situation and expect our hunting to decline as a result.

[Xenomorph]

Is this you Mike?
https://www.250news.com/2016/08/08/wildlife-mismanaged-in-b-c-says-cariboo-rancher/

well done man, awesome thread. Thanks for openi g the discussion

[Jagermeister]

Yup. That's Mikey alright. Wearing his other hat Sorry Mike.. Couldn't resist that

[Rotorwash]

Did you read some of those comments. People are so ignorant and I'll informed

[bearvalley]

Is this you Mike?
https://www.250news.com/2016/08/08/wildlife-mismanaged-in-b-c-says-cariboo-rancher/

well done man, awesome thread. Thanks for openi g the discussion

That's me.
Just got in from another day of dealing with this. Last night I got a call from a miner working a placer claim along the Quesnel River. He had seen a black calf stranded on a gravel bar out in the middle. I went up to have a look and see if it would be possible to swim a horse out, rope the calf and drag it to shore. It wasn't going to happen, as there was too much water. You could also see the calf had been chewed on but couldn't tell how bad. I called a friend in Prince George to bring his river boat down and see what we could do. We went up the river to the calf, the calf went into flight mode to escape these new predators and jumped into the river. It was roped and pulled aboard. You could see then that it had been severely chewed up. To keep a long story short the decision was made that the calf was beyond help and put down.

If if someone wants to post a couple of pictures up on here that are on my iPhone I will email them to them.
I don't have the techy ability or patience to figure it out myself.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Actually I think you will find that a program is in place where specially trained trappers are being employed by the rancher's association to respond to attacks on livestock. One of the qualifications for trappers applying for these positions was experience at removing entire packs of wolves. As I understand these trappers operate under special permits allowing them to trap 12 months of the year. I would be surprised if killing snares are denied to them given their effectiveness.

Some of the training these people have to undergo pointed out that not all wolves in the pack may be responsible for attacks on live stock even if they join in the feast. I do not remember any clear cut recommendations on how to effectively separate the killers from the non-killing feasters.

When I took the livestock/predator verification course I was somewhat surprised at the relatively small number of verified attacks on livestock reported by the instructors. I do not remember the exact number, but it was in the low hundreds. This in bold contrast with the thousands as I had previously perceived the problem to be. Granted these are the "verified" attacks and the total number is probably somewhat/substantially greater. Low matter the number the deleterious effect is just as great on the individual rancher whose herd is predated on.

Most of the problem lies with verifying wolf kills on livestock has been pointed out numerous times by gcreek who ranches in the Anihiem Lake country.
'Suspected' wolf kills must be reported to CO's and they must actually have the time to come out and investigate the scenes to unoquivically prove that the cattle was killed by a wolf and not just scavenged by wolves. By gcreek's accounts, most of the time COs don't have the time to respond to a call let alone come out within a reasonable time frame.
Another factor is that the actual compensation for a proven kill is only a fraction of the value of the cattle that had died. Hence most kills are no longer reported.

[Xenomorph]

Here you go man

http://i63.tinypic.com/315bng8.jpg
http://i68.tinypic.com/23usx1i.jpg
http://i68.tinypic.com/24lis6p.jpg
http://i63.tinypic.com/5v1u7l.jpg

[gcreek]

And the same wolves that did that are killing moose, deer, elk, cariboo, sheep, goats and every other game animal and other livestock that we all eat. Why shouldn't govt. foot the bill for predator control as they claim ownership?

As has been stated before, every stakeholder involved in hunting or agriculture needs to be involved and get something done instead of handing the dollars off to those who would prefer to not see populations controlled. Our own BCCA leadership is showing true colors in how they are managing dollars that were fought for long and hard by a few members including myself. I can't get any compensation for mitigation because the guys I hire don't fit the BCCA mold. The leadership plainly doesn't want to kill any wolves........

[gcreek]

Most of the problem lies with verifying wolf kills on livestock has been pointed out numerous times by gcreek who ranches in the Anihiem Lake country.
'Suspected' wolf kills must be reported to CO's and they must actually have the time to come out and investigate the scenes to unoquivically prove that the cattle was killed by a wolf and not just scavenged by wolves. By gcreek's accounts, most of the time COs don't have the time to respond to a call let alone come out within a reasonable time frame.
Another factor is that the actual compensation for a proven kill is only a fraction of the value of the cattle that had died. Hence most kills are no longer reported.

The COS has completely washed it's hands of wolf mitigation and verification. The few Co's that thought their burocracy would gain more funding by taking it on didn't get the added dollars. Having very few members that could effectively trap and all the bad publicity garnered by unhappy livestock producers led to the COS handing pred managment back to any who would take it.

We have been told NOT to call the COS for anything regarding wolves.

[dracb]

SSS
I understand the the difficulties in finding and identifying the sources of range losses of livestock and how it is impossible to determine the cause of death when the carcass is largely consumed by various actors. I certainly have no idea how to quantify these losses. Certainly not all losses of unsupervised livestock are predator losses hence the use of "probably" in my original post.

Actually I think (by no means certain and it is probably different for various parts of the Province and depends on the current case load of the CO's) the C.O.'s have stopped responding to these "wolf and coyote" attacks and it is now in the hands of the Rancher's Association. How they are handling the gbear and cougar depredations I do not know. When I took the course the C.O.'s instructing could not see a legal means for non-C.O.'s to deal with these specific depredations. I know in a recent lower mainland incident the CO's were interested in attending while the rancher was declaring it a cougar attack. When the rancher finally decided it was a coyote attack the CO gave him my name to deal with the issue.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

I think the new program through the Cattlemans Association will pay off, it is definitely better then the old system when the CO's were the guys doing the trapping.

With over 30 mitigators around the province, we can respond much quicker the the CO's and the Lay's.
The Lay's are with out a doubt some of the best wolf trappers in the province, the problem is they rarely showed up in a timely fashion. They were spread way to thin to do the job properly province wide. Being able to respond in 24 hours is really an important part of the equation.

Part of the problems I see already, is the lack of time spent with the cattle by range riders.
Cattle that have been harassed or killed are not being found in time. One of the big ranches next to me don't even bother reporting kills anymore as they have yet to to have a wolf caught or compensation paid through the old programs. Perhaps they and other like them will buy in to the new program.

Cowboys are becoming harder and harder to find, with one of the largest ranches out this way not being able to find one, I would think they will loose 30-40 head this season and get no compensation for any. Has community range ever been suggested Mike? I know in parts of Alberta it works quite well.

Although I think the new program is better then the old ones I still don't think it will ever come close to managing predators around the province. 1080 on a fresh wolf kill along with a few traps would get the job done a lot quicker. The province has told me they will never ever use poison for wolf control. So that is out of the question. Getting hunters hunting wolves would help some as well as trappers trapping wolves. The majority of trappers don't ever try and catch wolves as they are to much work and it doesn't pay to well.(not that most trappers are in it to make a living)

I think all stakeholders including FN's need to be on board. Without everyone chipping in we will never win this battle.

I feel sorry for the ranchers as the losses are huge in some cases. Using the program that is in place to it's fullest by spending as much time on the range as possible is a good start. It will be interesting after a year to see how this new program is working. We only have 3 years at this point. If the program seems to work there may be continued funding.

[bearvalley]

Thanks for posting the pictures.
People need to keep in mind that this was a healthy calf before getting hammered. The same goes on every day with our moose, deer and elk. To go against what Mowat, Suzuki and the rest of the huggers have propagated...healthy wolves do not eat the sick and the old unless they are forced too. They do not kill cleanly and don't always eat what they kill.
When you do the math that the average wolf eats 8 moose a year and contributes to the death of that many more....it doesn't take much of a thinker to figure out why we're seeing our current wildlife declines.
It's to bad the hunting community doesn't seem to want to put half the effort into saving actual wildlife as was put out in the squabble over opportunity.
I realize that predation is part of nature but at this time, in places, wildlife management is out of balance.

[bearvalley]

I think the new program through the Cattlemans Association will pay off, it is definitely better then the old system when the CO's were the guys doing the trapping.

With over 30 mitigators around the province, we can respond much quicker the the CO's and the Lay's.
The Lay's are with out a doubt some of the best wolf trappers in the province, the problem is they rarely showed up in a timely fashion. They were spread way to thin to do the job properly province wide. Being able to respond in 24 hours is really an important part of the equation.

Part of the problems I see already, is the lack of time spent with the cattle by range riders.
Cattle that have been harassed or killed are not being found in time. One of the big ranches next to me don't even bother reporting kills anymore as they have yet to to have a wolf caught or compensation paid through the old programs. Perhaps they and other like them will buy in to the new program.

Cowboys are becoming harder and harder to find, with one of the largest ranches out this way not being able to find one, I would think they will loose 30-40 head this season and get no compensation for any. Has community range ever been suggested Mike? I know in parts of Alberta it works quite well.

Although I think the new program is better then the old ones I still don't think it will ever come close to managing predators around the province. 1080 on a fresh wolf kill along with a few traps would get the job done a lot quicker. The province has told me they will never ever use poison for wolf control. So that is out of the question. Getting hunters hunting wolves would help some as well as trappers trapping wolves. The majority of trappers don't ever try and catch wolves as they are to much work and it doesn't pay to well.(not that most trappers are in it to make a living)

I think all stakeholders including FN's need to be on board. Without everyone chipping in we will never win this battle.

I feel sorry for the ranchers as the losses are huge in some cases. Using the program that is in place to it's fullest by spending as much time on the range as possible is a good start. It will be interesting after a year to see how this new program is working. We only have 3 years at this point. If the program seems to work there may be continued funding.

Doug, I'd like to beleive the new program will pay off and I do think it will in some areas.
The success of the program hinges on the ability of the trapper to achieve complete removal of the offending pack.
Without this the program is a fail.
On not finding cattle in time for a verification, mostly that is due to the large areas BC cattle are summer ranged on and the tree canopy.
One ranch could have 30 cowboys riding around on daily trail rides and there is no way in hell that these kills will be found before the maggots and decomposition has made the carcass no longer verifiable.
If the big ranch next to you no longer bothers reporting kills, that's sad.
Basically it says they've given up. I do know that a couple of your neighbors to the north have been successful with verifications and the offenders dealt with.
Community range, for the most part is not an option in BC. There already are cummunity pastures in existence and no interest from government (that I know off) for any more to be created. Ranchers are either commited to using crown range or reducing herds to what can be run on deeded land. This will not stop predation. I've had both bears and wolves kill cattle right at home.
Doug, I've been around through a few chapters of this predator management upheaval. 20 and even 30 years ago the COS had a team of specialist with all the tools pretty much in place. These guys targeted problem packs and for the most part achieved removal.
Then in 1998 they lost the use of 1080 and went to strictly leg holds, all CO's were expected to be trappers.
Successful mitigation dropped.
BC ranchers lobbied government to have our own predator program. I was involved in this as was gcreek, another member of this site.Our Cariboo North MLA, John Wilson was the main driver of this bus.
In 2002 BCCA took on a program dealing with predation of cattle. This program had its growing pains and a lot of undermining due to hurt egos but it had potential. Over the 9 years it ran, management changed, ARDCORP got involved and the COS decided they could use the administration funding spin off of the program and maybe ramp up the number of provincial CO's on staff by going back into the predator mitigation business.
There was nothing wrong with this, and a pretty good working relationship had been built between the COS and cattlemen due to the involvement of a CO that had been assigned as a liaison between the COS and livestock producers. This same CO also did a good job of educating producers on how to properly do a verification.
Anyhow the COS took back the mitigation of livestock predators in 2012. They had control of the program and dealt with all predation up until Jan 1 2016. (other than a very small handful of guys that could work under their own permits).
Thats when it was handed back to BCCA for the entire province other than the Peace River area that was not included on BCCA's permit.
I feel the new program is grossly underfunded. By the time BCCA takes its admin fee and pays the program manager they might have half the funding needed to be successful.
The program should have included all predators, not just wolves, coyotes and birds.
30 mitigaters sounds great, but you can drop that number substantially if you want to base it on effective canine mitigaters. These guys are trapping wolves not pine Martin. And it needs to be remembered that snares are off limits for mitigation work outside of the legal wolf trapping season. A lot of trappers that are highly successful at snaring have never caught a wolf in a summertime dirt hole set.
On the use of 1080, there's a big difference in the words "for wolf control" and the words "site specific mitigation".
I agree, we will never see it used for wolf control again like they did in the 50's and 60's.
Like I've said before, if 100% pack removal is not being done on livestock preying wolves they are being farmed to make a bigger mess.
We need hunters, ranchers and FN's to get on board with this. If we keep pulling in different directions the guys we are paying to manage wildlife in BC can continue sitting on their asses.

[guest]

Top Officials need to listen and heed to those like Bearvalley, Chilkoot HIllbilly ....... These are the guys that see what is happening directly in the bush and with our lands and wildlife and livestock.

Government needs to to take their heads out of the sand and do something to save our ungulate population, help the ranchers ........ Instead of listening to the bleeding heart of Suzuki, Anderson and Syrus ......

this Predator issue in the province of BC has taken a HUGE TURN, and it appears to be continuing to spiral downward out of control ..... Unless something is done . And soon.

thanks for your forwardness CHB and BV on this subject. Let's hope some one is listening ....... THOMSON where are you ???

CT

[bearvalley]

Thanks curly top!!!

[gcreek]

Thanks for posting the pictures.
People need to keep in mind that this was a healthy calf before getting hammered. The same goes on every day with our moose, deer and elk. To go against what Mowat, Suzuki and the rest of the huggers have propagated...healthy wolves do not eat the sick and the old unless they are forced too. They do not kill cleanly and don't always eat what they kill.
When you do the math that the average wolf eats 8 moose a year and contributes to the death of that many more....it doesn't take much of a thinker to figure out why we're seeing our current wildlife declines.
It's to bad the hunting community doesn't seem to want to put half the effort into saving actual wildlife as was put out in the squabble over opportunity.
I realize that predation is part of nature but at this time, in places, wildlife management is out of balance.

The apathy concerning predators by a large group of this forum is distressing to say the least.

[BgBlkDg]

Suzuki, is a truly vile little hypocrite and a total scumbag, he is a RACIST and a sniveling whinger of the worst sort.

However, the real problem is that 50ish years of bullshit about "iconic" species and the "balance of nature" have totally brainwashed most people in BC and there is BIG $$$$$$ behind all of this. One can see the problem in many of the posts made here by some of those with zero bush experience and lots of "attitude".

I am now totally cynical about management in BC, I have known far too many of the "name" preservationist-extremists personally over the past five decades and doubt that the situation can/will be changed.

What, to do? Well, I am going to shoot EVERY canid and ursine predator I can, legally of course, and encourage others to do so as well as trying to lobby for genuine management.......but...........

[adriaticum]

gcreek and bearvalley, I have one piece of advice for you.
If you want something done about wolves and you have large properties, build a camp ground that can host a dozen people and organize group hunts.
You have the intel and know where the wolves are. Make some calls and organize something. People will travel and do things (to help you) if you organize it.
Chances are next government will be NDP, if something miraculous doesn't happen and Cons wake up, and NDP may completely eliminate wolf hunting.
NDP is an urban party concerned with image and I reckon if they win we are in for a tough 10 years.
Waiting for the "appropriate" government to do something for you will make you lose your teeth and hair and bone structure.

[Xenomorph]

We need hunters, ranchers and FN's to get on board with this. If we keep pulling in different directions the guys we are paying to manage wildlife in BC can continue sitting on their asses.

Doug made a super good point in regards to hands on approach feeling a little "short on hands". I know for some is a foreign concept, but we are a community, and the little every single one of us willing to pitch in the more it's going to be done. There's plenty of avenues to reach the desired outcome: political activism or hands on ranch help whenever able to.

My kids are coming up, I wouldn't mind teaching them some hard work and taking care of animals. Considering my boy wants to be a vet, he'd have first hand experience.



The apathy concerning predators by a large group of this forum is distressing to say the least.

I was in that boat, not anymore. You guys did open my eyes on a lot of things. So, if a few years ago my tags were deer and maybe a bear, this year the tags bought were 2 cougar 2 bears and I intend to cut them by next season.

I know it must be frustrating to you guys, but don't give up on us, we -some who really listen- are getting on board and will actively support in any way we can.



gcreek and bearvalley, I have one piece of advice for you.
If you want something done about wolves and you have large properties, build a camp ground that can host a dozen people and organize group hunts.
You have the intel and know where the wolves are. Make some calls and organize something. People will travel and do things (to help you) if you organize it.
Chances are next government will be NDP, if something miraculous doesn't happen and Cons wake up, and NDP may completely eliminate wolf hunting.
NDP is an urban party concerned with image and I reckon if they win we are in for a tough 10 years.
Waiting for the "appropriate" government to do something for you will make you lose your teeth and hair and bone structure.

Bingo! I voted liberals for the last time in my life. I'm joining the PC party and will be actively involved from now on. It's time to cut the BS and paint the picture as it is, not as some want to be perceived.

[gcreek]

Doug made a super good point in regards to hands on approach feeling a little "short on hands". I know for some is a foreign concept, but we are a community, and the little every single one of us willing to pitch in the more it's going to be done. There's plenty of avenues to reach the desired outcome: political activism or hands on ranch help whenever able to.

My kids are coming up, I wouldn't mind teaching them some hard work and taking care of animals. Considering my boy wants to be a vet, he'd have first hand experience.




I was in that boat, not anymore. You guys did open my eyes on a lot of things. So, if a few years ago my tags were deer and maybe a bear, this year the tags bought were 2 cougar 2 bears and I intend to cut them by next season.

I know it must be frustrating to you guys, but don't give up on us, we -some who really listen- are getting on board and will actively support in any way we can.




Bingo! I voted liberals for the last time in my life. I'm joining the PC party and will be actively involved from now on. It's time to cut the BS and paint the picture as it is, not as some want to be perceived.

We need a "like" button on here.

[bearvalley]

Xenomorph, great post!
We all need to get on board and start telling our elected officials and the beuracrates what needs to be done. The ones that need to hear the wake up call the loudest are the paid government employees that we have entrusted to manage wildlife in this province.
The MLA's are just the messengers, they come and go with the party and NO political party is perfect.
Right now we're probably better off to try and get the party that's presently in place to pay attention and listen than we are to start over with the unknown.
I could be wrong.
If wildlife is ever going to be managed it needs to be funded.
For a start we need to demand that all money generated by wildlife go back into wildlife.
If wildlife is going to be properly managed, predators most be managed.
Bears are easy. They can be managed through hunting.
Wolves are another story.
A start on wolf management is a revision to the BC governments "Grey Wolf Management Plan".
There is a clause in that plan that states wolves can be reduced if damage is done to livestock or to a wildlife species at risk.
We need to demand a change to that clause and tell government that wolves need to be managed before wildlife species are put in the "at risk" category.
We can talk about drops in wildlife populations due to habitat damage, possible disease on global warming affects until we are blue in the face....as long as wildlife continues to be turned into wolf turds there will be no reversal.
Right now, wildlife management in BC is a joke.
Thats coming from my rancher point of view, the outfitter one isn't much better.

[panhead]

Still remember attending a round table meeting in the Chilcotin with gcreek. Our present ag minister was there and when introducing himself said something along the lines of ... don’t expect me to know anything about agriculture, I’m more of a business person. At least he was honest about that. Pretty well all the stakeholders in the room wanted to talk about were predator issues, and rightly so, but to relieve the pressure the minister turned the talk to fish farming. That went over well with the assortment of local ranchers, some who had traveled a fair distance to attend. That pretty much said it all to me about what this government is willing to do on the subject. It’s a hot potato for them. At least the homemade cookies were good. And you can bet Christie will be flashing that patent smile of hers nine months from now. This government’s future will be decided on the 15% tax on foreign ownership of lower mainland real estate, that’s where their interest lies... predator issues will be left to the people affected.



We import our trade deficit by the container load every day.

[Rob Chipman]

I just returned from a scouting trip through 5-12 (Blackwater/Nazko/Kluskus area). We saw five or so bears, lots of berries, several deer (including a nice buck) and one cow and one calf. I saw lots of wolf sign, although no wolves. In many areas there was a lot ( a lot!) of blowdown of old beetle kill. After many years it's really hitting the ground.

What I didn't see was the amount of moose sign I'd like. Generally in that sort of country you would see lots of moose poop of all kinds of different ages.

I talked with a FN guy renovating the Nazko store, which the band there will now be running. He first told me that moose had been knocked down hard by resident hunters, and while quite friendly, he said that they don't want more hunters coming around there. His feeling is that there are certain RHs who go hunting, have a few wobbly pops, and shoot stuff they never plan to recover. Could be true, could be BS. The point is, I think we've all recognized that RHs need FNs onside (do FNs need RHs? That's another question).

Then we talked about wolves, how many there are and how much they eat. My point was that if you've got one wolf eating 8 moose per year (I think that number turned up in this thread, so I'll use it) then one wolf is the same as 8 RHs shooting a moose. One pack of 10 wolves? Same as 80 RHs shooting moose. In that whole area of 5-12C where we got a draw there are only something like 27 tentative authorizations. Do the math - if all LEH in that are are successful then RHs are legally killing the same as 3.5 wolves. To get to what a 10 wolf pack eats you'd need to add another 53 illegal kills by RHs in that one management unit sub-area. I doubt it's happening. Predators are on the job 24/7/365 and process big numbers of prey.

So, when we talked about that he told me that there are lots of wolves around that area. Combined with the number of bears, and what we've all seen as we've hunted the province the past few years, it seems clear to me, anecdotally, that predators are playing a role in depressing game numbers. Clearly hunting also has a role, but a much more minor one.

I also saw a ton of logging. And of beetle kill. As I drove around I also saw more development, as in housing. And I drove into Nazko on Hwy 59, which surprised me, because I've seen that road develop from a two land dirt track to a paved highway. Throw in trains and other industrial uses and I think we can agree that there are lots of things that effect game, and often for the worse.


Bearvalley makes some very good points, but it occurred to me that if predator control is the answer, what's the question? And, if we can state what the question is (like "How do we create healthier game populations?) we have to ask "who cares?"

The provincial government doesn't care. That's clear. We can say that we have to tell them to get their heads out of the sand and listen to guys who know what's actually going on, but they won't do that. Hunting and wildlife doesn't matter to them. Getting elected does. Whether you agree with the 15% tax on foreign buyers or not is irrelevant - the government passed a retroactive tax destroying actual wealth, and they did it over a weekend without consultation for political reasons. They want to get in front of David Eby and the NDP in preparation for the 2017 election. They only care about getting elected.

A lot of us complain about environmental groups who oppose hunting. That's like complaining about a hockey team that keeps kicking your team's ass. The fact is that people like Suzuki and Raincoast are better at convincing voters that their agenda is the right one. They raise lots of money and they have professionals working for them.

They sell a good story and they reap the benefits from doing so in terms of money, media presence, and political power.


We need to fight the same kind of fight. We need more allies, but we need to be clear on what sort of story we're selling and why.

I don't think I'm saying anything that most of you haven't already thought. Hunting is good healthy fun (as in, it's a personal recreation choice). It's also a good source of free range, organic food. It's also a motive for preserving and conserving our natural world.

Oh, yeah, it's also in our DNA, whether we choose to recognize it or not. We are predators, and we are the top predator on the globe. We're so good at it that we can do it in our sleep without even really trying (who kills more wild animals? Hunters trying to or humans just doing other things?).

BCWF seems to be making some moves in the right direction, but there needs to be more. I don't know what it will take or how to build it, but politicians who win elections have power. We are not going to be able to become their favorite project (that job's taken by "families" these days, whatever the f*ck that means).

But we could, if we get clear about things and organize, even if slowly, become a sub-set of the population with a fair amount of popular support. And we could also become a group that politicians prefer to have inside the tent pissing out that outside the tent pissing in.

Just my thoughts. I could be 100% wrong. Thanks for the original post, Bearvalley. Some really good thoughts and observations.

[Bugle M In]

Rob,
I agree with what your saying.
Problem with the RH and FN situation is simple.
RH have one set of rules to hunt, and the FN have another rule.
Unless we all get "lump summed" into the same set of rules....one people, one province....
We will never see eye to eye.
And why would FN want to???!!!
They have all they need, yet still want it all.
The right to hunt all year, yet not use "traditional methods"
They get money from us, yet pay no taxes.
The want all the land back, yet will develop it for to have more money...yet we still pay them.
They have a voice at every table, and are present for every politicians PR Events.
So, do I think they want to be like us.....
Do I think they will stand by us....
Yes, it would make a difference in getting "government Action"....totally agree.
But, they have another agenda....white man out!....period.....but "oh, don't forget to leave your wallet at the door"!
I am willing to stand beside the "cattleman", even though some will no longer let us on their land.
I don't agree with grazing leases, and how in effect, it is "private property", and some a large swaths of land our "theirs",
yet they never paid the "Retail Value".
Again, another set of rules....so to speak, yet I will stand with them, as the problem/solution is the same.
GO's are in the same boat.....to many predators, not enough big game for clients....
Yet, if they could have every RH out of their territory....they would.
Then you throw in the Anti's.
And throw in other "outdoor enthusiasts", who don't have a clue what is going on out there....
All they see is a bunch of guys in camo...ready to kill....(although there are some that get it....a few)
So, unless the government or someone in the Ministry has some "BALLS!".....
This predator issue is going to play out they way mother nature wants it to happen.
Major Declines in Ungulates/Prey, until wolves die off, and unless we retain and revitalize "Winter Range" for the
Future!....we won't be seeing the same ungulate #'s again....
And, the party with the "smallest voice"...RH....will be the one's who get blamed.
By the Anti's and the FN.
Bad way of getting "media attention" if you ask me.
So, do I have faith....not at all.
Until the Governments start putting us all under the "same rules"...nothing will get better....only worse.
More division, more arguments, and the Government to scared to take sides or take the right course of action.
Because, politics is all about "Votes" not Brains or good policy making....just bending to the biggest voice/votes or worse,
the biggest "Cheque Book".
In Germany, the Farmers "have to" work together with the Hunters, to reduce thing such as "Crop Loss"
They don't have to here.
GOABC Allocation, just another example of where RH stand in the "Food Chain" so to speak.
FN, being able to block roads...illegal, but acceptable by Government standards I suppose.
I could go on and on, and other could add to it.
Truth is...
It's not just about "we have too many wolves"
We don't have enough "winter range" even if we did implement a major predator cull.
So, that would also have to be in the works, at the same time.
And IF we are ever to be a voice of "Traditionalists" and "Conservationists"...
WE and the FN, have to have the SAME RULES!
And Ranchers/Farmers and Cattleman, would "have to" work together with Hunters.
And the GO's should be not "Allocated More Tags".
If anything, close some more roads, that should help out more, for Go's (they have the ability to pack in),
and to give Wildlife some space, but that would apply to FN as well.
Sorry for the Rant, I do agree that RH don't have the money, nor the voice.
And this Pred issues will continue on, even with hunters trying to do their best, it won't be enough.

also, beetle kill...Blow Down....
Totally agree there as well...
I saw that in the EK, and how game trails and wallows where totally abandoned (used for years and years),
due to a windstorm just before the GOS...it was major, and I am certain that also had some impact.

There is a lot of work ahead, and a lot to be lost if it doesn't happen...that I am certain of.

[gcreek]

Great points guys, even though we differ in a lot of opinions, we do share the same voice when it comes to predators.

Don't lose sight of that.

[Xenomorph]

We need a viable package and story that need to grow on the basis of conservancy, tradition, way and right of life. People have every right of expression and they do deserve it, why should we not ask for the same.

We know we're good and our commitment is to our families and to the wildlife, but the vast majority out there have no clue. What we need is coherence and cohesion in our speech. We need fact for fact to present why we are good and why we are here to stay. If you remember that thread I opened on "Hunters together" that's exactly what all of us have to do, if we are to effect real, sustainable and measurable progress, then RH, GOs and any other interest groups need to figure out that wildlife is a common ground and we can agree to protect it.

The measure of balance in wildlife is creating equilibrium in disorder. You don't need to fight the Antis and Suzuki, just challenge their dogma. You cannot have natural balance in an unbalanced environment without our intervention. Let's face it, if we'd stop every and all access, development, roads and industry to all wild corners of BC and let it really be wild, then maybe their science would make sense. As long as we are present, we need to be part of the solution, because we as humans created the avenues through which the predators like wolves have literally exploded.

[bearvalley]

The measure of balance in wildlife is creating equilibrium in disorder. You don't need to fight the Antis and Suzuki, just challenge their dogma. You cannot have natural balance in an unbalanced environment without our intervention. Let's face it, if we'd stop every and all access, development, roads and industry to all wild corners of BC and let it really be wild, then maybe their science would make sense. As long as we are present, we need to be part of the solution, because we as humans created the avenues through which the predators like wolves have literally exploded.

Well said!!!

[.308SLAYER]

Rob,
I agree with what your saying.
Problem with the RH and FN situation is simple.
RH have one set of rules to hunt, and the FN have another rule.
Unless we all get "lump summed" into the same set of rules....one people, one province....
We will never see eye to eye.
And why would FN want to???!!!
They have all they need, yet still want it all.
The right to hunt all year, yet not use "traditional methods"
They get money from us, yet pay no taxes.
The want all the land back, yet will develop it for to have more money...yet we still pay them.
They have a voice at every table, and are present for every politicians PR Events.
So, do I think they want to be like us.....
Do I think they will stand by us....
Yes, it would make a difference in getting "government Action"....totally agree.
But, they have another agenda....white man out!....period.....but "oh, don't forget to leave your wallet at the door"!
I am willing to stand beside the "cattleman", even though some will no longer let us on their land.
I don't agree with grazing leases, and how in effect, it is "private property", and some a large swaths of land our "theirs",
yet they never paid the "Retail Value".
Again, another set of rules....so to speak, yet I will stand with them, as the problem/solution is the same.
GO's are in the same boat.....to many predators, not enough big game for clients....
Yet, if they could have every RH out of their territory....they would.
Then you throw in the Anti's.
And throw in other "outdoor enthusiasts", who don't have a clue what is going on out there....
All they see is a bunch of guys in camo...ready to kill....(although there are some that get it....a few)
So, unless the government or someone in the Ministry has some "BALLS!".....
This predator issue is going to play out they way mother nature wants it to happen.
Major Declines in Ungulates/Prey, until wolves die off, and unless we retain and revitalize "Winter Range" for the
Future!....we won't be seeing the same ungulate #'s again....
And, the party with the "smallest voice"...RH....will be the one's who get blamed.
By the Anti's and the FN.
Bad way of getting "media attention" if you ask me.
So, do I have faith....not at all.
Until the Governments start putting us all under the "same rules"...nothing will get better....only worse.
More division, more arguments, and the Government to scared to take sides or take the right course of action.
Because, politics is all about "Votes" not Brains or good policy making....just bending to the biggest voice/votes or worse,
the biggest "Cheque Book".
In Germany, the Farmers "have to" work together with the Hunters, to reduce thing such as "Crop Loss"
They don't have to here.
GOABC Allocation, just another example of where RH stand in the "Food Chain" so to speak.
FN, being able to block roads...illegal, but acceptable by Government standards I suppose.
I could go on and on, and other could add to it.
Truth is...
It's not just about "we have too many wolves"
We don't have enough "winter range" even if we did implement a major predator cull.
So, that would also have to be in the works, at the same time.
And IF we are ever to be a voice of "Traditionalists" and "Conservationists"...
WE and the FN, have to have the SAME RULES!
And Ranchers/Farmers and Cattleman, would "have to" work together with Hunters.
And the GO's should be not "Allocated More Tags".
If anything, close some more roads, that should help out more, for Go's (they have the ability to pack in),
and to give Wildlife some space, but that would apply to FN as well.
Sorry for the Rant, I do agree that RH don't have the money, nor the voice.
And this Pred issues will continue on, even with hunters trying to do their best, it won't be enough.

also, beetle kill...Blow Down....
Totally agree there as well...
I saw that in the EK, and how game trails and wallows where totally abandoned (used for years and years),
due to a windstorm just before the GOS...it was major, and I am certain that also had some impact.

There is a lot of work ahead, and a lot to be lost if it doesn't happen...that I am certain of.

Looks like you got er all figured out bud....some people need a slap to wake up or give their head a shake certain individuals just aren't worth conversing with

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Mike,
I think one thing that should be looked at is have a few more of use that can deal with bear and cougar conflict. It is the same with bear as wolves. Response times for mitigation is extremely important. The CO's can take quite a while to respond. It doesn't take long for a bear to clean up a calf, or yearling. There a some of use that could very well respond effectively. Yet it is a tough one for the CO's to let go of as well.

[bearvalley]

Mike,
I think one thing that should be looked at is have a few more of use that can deal with bear and cougar conflict. It is the same with bear as wolves. Response times for mitigation is extremely important. The CO's can take quite a while to respond. It doesn't take long for a bear to clean up a calf, or yearling. There a some of use that could very well respond effectively. Yet it is a tough one for the CO's to let go of as well.

Doug, I agree with you 110%.
When the COS decided that they no longer wanted to deal with all livestock mitigation work and that BCCA was going to get it back I was adamant that the new program include coyotes, wolves, bears and cougars. The upper powers decided that bears and cougars would stay with the COS and the coboys would get the dogs. A properly run predator program has the potential to deal with livestock killers, but the bus needs to be driven and a qualified team needs to be in place.
Unless a wolf trapper has proven that he has the ability to take out a complete problem pack he isn't the guy to experiment at how to catch wolves at some livestock producers expense.
Dont get me wrong, there's some damn good hands working for the latest version of predator mitigation, then again there's some others that aren't.
Give me a call some time.

[yamadirt 426]

Are all you ranchers on here letting the RH hunt your land for preds as well as ungulates if asked ? Without some sort of compensation using the programs the bcwf has in place. Just curious.

[Rotorwash]

I don't know if it's a good idea or bad but maybe if there was a place on this forum for ranchers to advertise to hunters if they are having a predator issue. I'm sure there's guys that would jump at the opportunity to help out.

[gcreek]

I don't know if it's a good idea or bad but maybe if there was a place on this forum for ranchers to advertise to hunters if they are having a predator issue. I'm sure there's guys that would jump at the opportunity to help out.

It's a province wide problem. Just buy all the bear tags you can and kill every wolf you see.

[Surrey Boy]

It's a province wide problem. Just buy all the bear tags you can and kill every wolf you see.

Direct action grassrots campaign right there! Hunters win, ranchers win, the environment wins, and we're all cooperating.

Commendation to gcreek!

[gcreek]

2nd wolf left bearvalley's range in the back of a truck yesterday.

Lay boys will be setting up here this week.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

2nd wolf left bearvalley's range in the back of a truck yesterday.

Lay boys will be setting up here this week.

Have you been hit hard this year Dave. I know out Alexis Creek they have had a lot of problems and have removed a pile of wolves out of there in the past 3 months.
So far around here I have had only one call to catch a single that took a calf. the Lays are still the best in the business, I am sure they will thin out a few wolves. Keep us updated on their progress.

[bearvalley]

2nd wolf left bearvalley's range in the back of a truck yesterday.

Lay boys will be setting up here this week.

Dave, that doesn't sound like much production but Dans comment "that was the toughest wolf I've removed in 40 years of doing this" says a lot.
One pack on this range unit was identified as cattle specific killers.
The alpha male in this pack had either killed or chewed holes in more cattle than most on here would believe.
He finally screwed up and stuffed his foot in a trap.
This pack will crumble and be removed.
There are a couple of other wolf groups in this area that will be left alone unless they are identified as a problem.
What many don't get is that "bounty" type programs and partial removal only makes more and more really tough, educated wolves.
I hope Dan and Kyle put a quick end to your problem, it's been a damn long summer here.

[Timbow]

Bearvalley, who is funding the wolf removal problem in your area? I haven't hunted your neck of the woods for some time now.

If the wolves are hitting the cattle, I can't imagine the local elk population is doing so well. I may have to venture the nyland area late November.

good luck with the rest of the pack and hopefully they won't be as educated as their boss was.

[bearvalley]

Timbow, I pay the Lays.

[Bugle M In]

Bear,
You definitely have some legitimate points and concerns.
I do think the wildlife in BC is in for a world of hurt for the next while.
I only hope there are people who have the power to implement the proper procedures.
But, I fear "political revolt" by the Anti's and uninformed, will never allow a proper program to happen.
Saying that, unless the proper steps are taken, this is going to be an ongoing problem, until mother
nature sets it straight.
Unfortunately, us as hunters, will probably loss some "gos seasons at some point.....I think.

[LBM]

Timbow, I pay the Lays.

Curious as to how much and how they are paid is it by the wolf or by the day etc.

[bearvalley]

Curious as to how much and how they are paid is it by the wolf or by the day etc.
They are paid by the day.
Lets put it this way the price is a hell of a lot cheaper than the free service offered through the cattlemans program.

[Xenomorph]

2nd wolf left bearvalley's range in the back of a truck yesterday.

Lay boys will be setting up here this week.


That's awesome. Good news

[chilcotin hillbilly]

They are paid by the day.
Lets put it this way the price is a hell of a lot cheaper than the free service offered through the cattlemans program.

Only if you don't have the right Cattleman's trapper showing up. There are some that are much better then others.

[Timbow]

They are paid by the day.
Lets put it this way the price is a hell of a lot cheaper than the free service offered through the cattlemans program.

Curious if there is any bounty fee that you can collect from the cattlemans association with the wolves you collect? Maybe there is a way for the hunting community to collect donations and payout for every wolf harvested?

[bearvalley]

Only if you don't have the right Cattleman's trapper showing up. There are some that are much better then others.
Doug, we won' go into that discussion on a public forum.

[guest]

2nd wolf left bearvalley's range in the back of a truck yesterday.

Lay boys will be setting up here this week.

I
like this here news ...... :lol:

[Jagermeister]

Doug, we won' go into that discussion on a public forum.
And why not? You're not inferring that the locals are incompetent?

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Doug, we won' go into that discussion on a public forum.

No we won't.
I still believe the cattlemans program will be the most effective program yet. There are only so many Lay's out there and they can't possibly cover the Cariboo/Chilcotin let alone the province.

[bearvalley]

Curious if there is any bounty fee that you can collect from the cattlemans association with the wolves you collect? Maybe there is a way for the hunting community to collect donations and payout for every wolf harvested?
Timbow, right here you have identified one of the biggest problems that can be tied to wolf removal, a bounty fee.
In reality that is what the current program is running on, a bounty system or to put it differently...pay for production.
This may seem like the way to go but in reality it is the formula for creating a bigger wolf problem. Wolf packs are creamed, the easy ones removed because they are a quick buck and in many cases the smartest, worst offenders are left to breed a new generation of wolves that are worse than the last.
Basically a bounty type system is in reality a wolf enhancement program.
If an offending pack of wolves is identified, the only solution to end their predation on livestock is to identify every member of that pack and remove them. This is next to impossible to do thru shooting and snares can only be used during the general trapping season. Most of the livestock predation issues occur during the non trapping season months and the mandatory tool is a leg hold trap. Very few trappers are capable of removing the entire pack using leg hold traps during summer months or can hold back from targeting a wolf that isn't killing cattle...because it's instant cash.
I believe if one were to look at the big picture it wouldn't take long to see that the parts of the province that has had this type of management applied to wolves has created a wolf that has in some cases lost pack structure, does not maintain a territory and is about as mystical as a garbage dump bear.

[gcreek]

Timbow, right here you have identified one of the biggest problems that can be tied to wolf removal, a bounty fee.
In reality that is what the current program is running on, a bounty system or to put it differently...pay for production.
This may seem like the way to go but in reality it is the formula for creating a bigger wolf problem. Wolf packs are creamed, the easy ones removed because they are a quick buck and in many cases the smartest, worst offenders are left to breed a new generation of wolves that are worse than the last.
Basically a bounty type system is in reality a wolf enhancement program.
If an offending pack of wolves is identified, the only solution to end their predation on livestock is to identify every member of that pack and remove them. This is next to impossible to do thru shooting and snares can only be used during the general trapping season. Most of the livestock predation issues occur during the non trapping season months and the mandatory tool is a leg hold trap. Very few trappers are capable of removing the entire pack using leg hold traps during summer months or can hold back from targeting a wolf that isn't killing cattle...because it's instant cash.
I believe if one were to look at the big picture it wouldn't take long to see that the parts of the province that has had this type of management applied to wolves has created a wolf that has in some cases lost pack structure, does not maintain a territory and is about as mystical as a garbage dump bear.

Correct as correct can be.

[bearvalley]

And why not? You're not inferring that the locals are incompetent?

Let's put it this way Dennis, the persisting problem is now going away.
The Lays are second and third generation wolf trappers from a family that has pretty much set the mark for problem wolf removal.
I don't think much more needs to be said other than that the involvement of egos can become the creation of problems.

[gcreek]

Dave, that doesn't sound like much production but Dans comment "that was the toughest wolf I've removed in 40 years of doing this" says a lot.
One pack on this range unit was identified as cattle specific killers.
The alpha male in this pack had either killed or chewed holes in more cattle than most on here would believe.
He finally screwed up and stuffed his foot in a trap.
This pack will crumble and be removed.
There are a couple of other wolf groups in this area that will be left alone unless they are identified as a problem.
What many don't get is that "bounty" type programs and partial removal only makes more and more really tough, educated wolves.
I hope Dan and Kyle put a quick end to your problem, it's been a damn long summer here.

I know, I had supper with he and Sue a couple days after he got the leader.

[gcreek]

No we won't.
I still believe the cattlemans program will be the most effective program yet. There are only so many Lay's out there and they can't possibly cover the Cariboo/Chilcotin let alone the province.

I'm going touch on this once. A neighbor of yours and I worked our butts off getting this money for predator mitigation and repeatedly asked govt to put the dollars into an existing Ministry rather than an Assn where personalities come into play.
It was asked that ranchers be able to hire the mitigators of their choice and be reimbursed for wolves killed at their operation. This would nulify the goings on that are already happening with the current program where the money is being spent in instances it shouldn't and areas that are outside the jurisdiction.

It is my understanding the administrator wasn't answering his phone last week.......

Needless to say, I will keep spending my own dollars on the success I've experienced and leave the welfare dollars I worked hard to get completely alone.

[bearvalley]

Needless to say, I will keep spending my own dollars on the success I've experienced and leave the welfare dollars I worked hard to get completely alone.

This is being said by too many ranchers that actually have a livestock/wolf predation issue.

[bridger]

I see that the state of Washington is going to remove an entire pack that has been killing livestock. Bearvalley is correct when he says the only effective reduction is total.

[boxhitch]

WDFW Starts Removal Of Ferry County Wolf Pack After Finding Dead, Injured Calves
.........Director Jim Unsworth authorized field staff to remove the remaining members of the Profanity Peak wolf pack to prevent additional attacks on cattle in the rangelands between Republic and Kettle Falls.................The Profanity Peak wolf pack is one of 19 known wolf packs in Washington state. Earlier this summer, WDFW determined that the pack had at least 11 members, including six adults and five pups.

Since 2008, the state's confirmed wolf population has grown from two wolves in one pack to at least 90 wolves and 19 packs by early 2016............

Heavy management and over 250,000 hunters

[BigfishCanada]

Well in my region, going back 15 years we had a fair sized pack around, its now like we have numerous packs, and big ones. They arent scared to make themselves present anymore and i believe are loosing fear of man(Last year they took down a small dear in front of a group of ice fisherman)?

I have heard of a pack, and location last week which appears to be a larger than what I would expect a size be 20+(Im no expert) but that seems big? There just seems to be too many around now, and although i see at least one a season, haven't been able to get a shot off, they are ghostly and dont seem to give me an op to get a scope on them (Even zig zagging when running from me) I also dont think me taking one will make any difference?

[horshur]

And why not? You're not inferring that the locals are incompetent?

it takes twenty years to be good at somthin if you really work at it...

[LBM]

Timbow, right here you have identified one of the biggest problems that can be tied to wolf removal, a bounty fee.
In reality that is what the current program is running on, a bounty system or to put it differently...pay for production.
This may seem like the way to go but in reality it is the formula for creating a bigger wolf problem. Wolf packs are creamed, the easy ones removed because they are a quick buck and in many cases the smartest, worst offenders are left to breed a new generation of wolves that are worse than the last.
Basically a bounty type system is in reality a wolf enhancement program.
If an offending pack of wolves is identified, the only solution to end their predation on livestock is to identify every member of that pack and remove them. This is next to impossible to do thru shooting and snares can only be used during the general trapping season. Most of the livestock predation issues occur during the non trapping season months and the mandatory tool is a leg hold trap. Very few trappers are capable of removing the entire pack using leg hold traps during summer months or can hold back from targeting a wolf that isn't killing cattle...because it's instant cash.
I believe if one were to look at the big picture it wouldn't take long to see that the parts of the province that has had this type of management applied to wolves has created a wolf that has in some cases lost pack structure, does not maintain a territory and is about as mystical as a garbage dump bear.
So are you kind of saying the cattlemans association is to blame for this.
also if the majority of the livestock predation issues is not during the regular trapping season does this mean it happens when the livestock is kicked out on the range and not under the constant supervision of the live stock owners. If so would it not be better to not put the livestock out.

[bearvalley]

Heavy management and over 250,000 hunters


So are you kind of saying the cattlemans association is to blame for this.
also if the majority of the livestock predation issues is not during the regular trapping season does this mean it happens when the livestock is kicked out on the range and not under the constant supervision of the live stock owners. If so would it not be better to not put the livestock out.

What I'm saying LBM is that blindly targeting all wolves and not completely removing the entire offending pack is a formula for the creation of more livestock dependent wolves.
This is done on a lot larger scale than just by the cattlemans association.
The same trapping regulations pertain to both crown land and deeded other than the use of leg hold traps is allowed here on deeded land 12 months of the year and on crown, under permit during the non regular trapping season.
Thats the tool to be used other than the odd wolf shot.
Maybe wolves need to be managed as a big game species...maybe we need some population goals...maybe trappers have to have the credibility to catch wolves before they are turned loose with their " learned and earned over the weekend" trapping license.
I think there's a lot of issues in our predator management that needs to be looked at hard, and not by just the knee jerkers.
Just so you don't twist this thread into a "keep cattle off crown range saga"....do you think a wolf really gives a shit where private property starts?

[bearvalley]

Heavy management and over 250,000 hunters
Now we look at BC;
- 100 X the wolves (based on an expanding population estimate of 8500)
- 102,000 hunters
- a large and remote geographical area for the most part
- next to nothing for wildlife management
And then we wonder why BC has a moose recovery program being implemented, why caribou herds are shrinking, why there are less elk in the Kootenays and no one can find a mule deer buck to hunt.
It sure as hell isn't because of global warming or ticks.

[Bugle M In]

Well in my region, going back 15 years we had a fair sized pack around, its now like we have numerous packs, and big ones. They arent scared to make themselves present anymore and i believe are loosing fear of man(Last year they took down a small dear in front of a group of ice fisherman)?

I have heard of a pack, and location last week which appears to be a larger than what I would expect a size be 20+(Im no expert) but that seems big? There just seems to be too many around now, and although i see at least one a season, haven't been able to get a shot off, they are ghostly and dont seem to give me an op to get a scope on them (Even zig zagging when running from me) I also dont think me taking one will make any difference?

Same thing happened to me back than.
Had a pack of 18 Wolves come down the river where I go yearly to hunt Elk.
Never though much of it at the time.....thought it was a rare unique thing to see....found it fascinating.
( I owned Huskies, so I just couldn't get my head around to shoot)
I have regrets now, although I would have only been able to take 1 or 2 at the time)
In the end, that would not have made a difference

[guest]

Now we look at BC;
- 100 X the wolves (based on an expanding population estimate of 8500)
- 102,000 hunters
- a large and remote geographical area for the most part
- next to nothing for wildlife management
And then we wonder why BC has a moose recovery program being implemented, why caribou herds are shrinking, why there are less elk in the Kootenays and no one can find a mule deer buck to hunt.
It sure as hell isn't because of global warming or ticks.


Well said ...... Hence ..... Next to nothing for wild life management.

[LBM]

What I'm saying LBM is that blindly targeting all wolves and not completely removing the entire offending pack is a formula for the creation of more livestock dependent wolves.
This is done on a lot larger scale than just by the cattlemans association.
The same trapping regulations pertain to both crown land and deeded other than the use of leg hold traps is allowed here on deeded land 12 months of the year and on crown, under permit during the non regular trapping season.
Thats the tool to be used other than the odd wolf shot.
Maybe wolves need to be managed as a big game species...maybe we need some population goals...maybe trappers have to have the credibility to catch wolves before they are turned loose with their " learned and earned over the weekend" trapping license.
I think there's a lot of issues in our predator management that needs to be looked at hard, and not by just the knee jerkers.
Just so you don't twist this thread into a "keep cattle off crown range saga"....do you think a wolf really gives a shit where private property starts?

I agree on lots of your points
Yes the offending pack should be targeted, yes more credible people should be used to do this, yes more training(experience) should be involved many of the trappers(people) are causing more of a problem then helping it. Personally prefer the use of leg holds for there is way to many non target animals being caught by trappers, this would pertain to the regular trapping season. In the case of setting on a confirmed livestock kill by wolves can see where snares could be an advantage in getting more of the pack and may not be such an issue on non target animals.
No doubt a wolf knows where private property starts, but if the majority of the problem is well on the range then it is kind of a no brainer for me. Does livestock give a ---- where private property starts, I would have to say no by the amount of damage I see them do on others private property. Does the rancher care about it , he says no if you don't like it fence off your property.

[bearvalley]

I agree on lots of your points
Yes the offending pack should be targeted, yes more credible people should be used to do this, yes more training(experience) should be involved many of the trappers(people) are causing more of a problem then helping it. Personally prefer the use of leg holds for there is way to many non target animals being caught by trappers, this would pertain to the regular trapping season. In the case of setting on a confirmed livestock kill by wolves can see where snares could be an advantage in getting more of the pack and may not be such an issue on non target animals.
No doubt a wolf knows where private property starts, but if the majority of the problem is well on the range then it is kind of a no brainer for me. Does livestock give a ---- where private property starts, I would have to say no by the amount of damage I see them do on others private property. Does the rancher care about it , he says no if you don't like it fence off your property.
Seems to me your packing your own personal grudge. This thread is on predator and wildlife management, not fencing issues.

[LBM]

Seems to me your packing your own personal grudge. This thread is on predator and wildlife management, not fencing issues.
Not a personal grudge at all. Do I think wildlife management is that great no. Do I think the main issues are from predators No. Maybe in some parts of the province they
are but in others they are not, the bigger problems are human caused. Even the possible increase of wolves in certain areas is human caused by the trappers, cattlemans association etc.
I deal with a fair number of ranchers and land owners and see what BS some of them spread and what extent they will go to, to deal with what they deam a problem.
So will ask again is the majority of predator problem when the livestock is kicked out on the range.

[bearvalley]

So will ask again is the majority of predator problem when the livestock is kicked out on the range.
Like I said before....does a predator know the differance between crown land and deeded?
For your information the 2 wolves recently removed by Lays were caught in leg holds on deeded property.
i guess my fence wasn't good enough to keep them out.

[boxhitch]

Well said ...... Hence ..... Next to nothing for wild life management.And everyone has a different idea of what is proper management. No one can get on the same page as to what is proper qualified and quantified habitat, carrying capacities, population target numbers that satisfy anyone, sustainable predation levels, acceptable costs of population manipulation etc etc. And that goes for the small fur bearers and birds as well as large ungulates.

Caribou are getting some attention because of the world image of loosing a species, moose are only getting some attention because of the FN sustenance food issues. Logging practices for the most part are about building logs , not wildlife.

If there was somehow a $billion per year available, it would all be used up in studies because objectives are not in place. Read some of the management plans published by the prov gov't. No targets for increasing, just fluff about maintaining.

BCWF spoke about the big conversation needed, but the will has to be built first.

[Bugle M In]

And everyone has a different idea of what is proper management. No one can get on the same page as to what is proper qualified and quantified habitat, carrying capacities, population target numbers that satisfy anyone, sustainable predation levels, acceptable costs of population manipulation etc etc. And that goes for the small fur bearers and birds as well as large ungulates.

Caribou are getting some attention because of the world image of loosing a species, moose are only getting some attention because of the FN sustenance food issues. Logging practices for the most part are about building logs , not wildlife.

If there was somehow a $billion per year available, it would all be used up in studies because objectives are not in place. Read some of the management plans published by the prov gov't. No targets for increasing, just fluff about maintaining.

BCWF spoke about the big conversation needed, but the will has to be built first.

Biggest issue I have with Government.
Lots of money found to spend on Inquiries, Commissions and endless Studies (hired friends of the government)
But, nothing spent on actually getting something done.
Well said, and the real problem with Wildlife.
Some is predation, like Bear says, some is what LBM says.
But, your response is the great problem....and is a problem with society in general....not just wildlife management.
But, money for action, not "fluff", is the only direction.

[LBM]

Like I said before....does a predator know the differance between crown land and deeded?
For your information the 2 wolves recently removed by Lays were caught in leg holds on deeded property.
i guess my fence wasn't good enough to keep them out.
Like I said does live stock know the difference?
Were the wolves caught at a carcass of livestock that they had killed at the spot or by other methods, such as a planted bait site, scents or other attactints, trail sets etc.

[LBM]

And everyone has a different idea of what is proper management. No one can get on the same page as to what is proper qualified and quantified habitat, carrying capacities, population target numbers that satisfy anyone, sustainable predation levels, acceptable costs of population manipulation etc etc. And that goes for the small fur bearers and birds as well as large ungulates.

Caribou are getting some attention because of the world image of loosing a species, moose are only getting some attention because of the FN sustenance food issues. Logging practices for the most part are about building logs , not wildlife.

If there was somehow a $billion per year available, it would all be used up in studies because objectives are not in place. Read some of the management plans published by the prov gov't. No targets for increasing, just fluff about maintaining.

BCWF spoke about the big conversation needed, but the will has to be built first.
Some good points here.

[bearvalley]

I agree on lots of your points
Yes the offending pack should be targeted, yes more credible people should be used to do this, yes more training(experience) should be involved many of the trappers(people) are causing more of a problem then helping it. Personally prefer the use of leg holds for there is way to many non target animals being caught by trappers, this would pertain to the regular trapping season. In the case of setting on a confirmed livestock kill by wolves can see where snares could be an advantage in getting more of the pack and may not be such an issue on non target animals.
No doubt a wolf knows where private property starts, but if the majority of the problem is well on the range then it is kind of a no brainer for me. Does livestock give a ---- where private property starts, I would have to say no by the amount of damage I see them do on others private property. Does the rancher care about it , he says no if you don't like it fence off your property.

LBM, can you explain how snares are not such an issue on non target animals, even at a confirmed livestock kill site?
Non targeted species can be released from leg holds at a trap site, how many are turned loose from a snare.
....a wolf knows where private property starts...LMAO.


Like I said does live stock know the difference?
Were the wolves caught at a carcass of livestock that they had killed at the spot or by other methods, such as a planted bait site, scents or other attactints, trail sets etc.

On your first question, livestock doesn't know the difference between a ranchers private grass, grass on crown range or what's contained within your unfenced yard.
As to your second question they were caught in very stale trail sets.
Educated wolves tend to kill and feed once, don't hit bait stations and ignore scents and lures.
You must work for government, you've got all the credentials.

[steveo]

I agree on lots of your points
Yes the offending pack should be targeted, yes more credible people should be used to do this, yes more training(experience) should be involved many of the trappers(people) are causing more of a problem then helping it. Personally prefer the use of leg holds for there is way to many non target animals being caught by trappers, this would pertain to the regular trapping season. In the case of setting on a confirmed livestock kill by wolves can see where snares could be an advantage in getting more of the pack and may not be such an issue on non target animals.
No doubt a wolf knows where private property starts, but if the majority of the problem is well on the range then it is kind of a no brainer for me. Does livestock give a ---- where private property starts, I would have to say no by the amount of damage I see them do on others private property. Does the rancher care about it , he says no if you don't like it fence off your property.Could you expand on what kind of non-target animals and how many are being caught by trappers snares.

[LBM]

LBM, can you explain how snares are not such an issue on non target animals, even at a confirmed livestock kill site?
Non targeted species can be released from leg holds at a trap site, how many are turned loose from a snare.
....a wolf knows where private property starts...LMAO.



On your first question, livestock doesn't know the difference between a ranchers private grass, grass on crown range or what's contained within your unfenced yard.
As to your second question they were caught in very stale trail sets.
Educated wolves tend to kill and feed once, don't hit bait stations and ignore scents and lures.
You must work for government, you've got all the credentials.

Sorry type Oh should have said No I doubt a wolf would no where private property starts.
Like I said I prefer leg holds , don't think snares should even be allowed way to many non target animals caught.
Like I said MAY not be such an issue, they can be set in certain areas to help in not catching non-target species and
can be removed the next day if the wolves do not return to the site instead of being left there for up to a few weeks at
a time in between checks, but to better answer your question, depends on the rancher or trapper, very few are found alive in snares
where most will be in leg holds if checked regularly but for releasing them here there is some ranchers and trappers that will make sure they all
end up dead, in season or out and targeted species or not.
Sorry don't work for the government. You sound like a rancher /outfitter by some of your comments though.

[LBM]

Could you expand on what kind of non-target animals and how many are being caught by trappers snares.

Bears both grizzly and black, deer, cougars, domestic dogs, you could also include coyote for not the target species but legal when in an open season.
I am talking about wolf snare sets.

[bearvalley]

Sorry type Oh should have said No I doubt a wolf would no where private property starts.
Like I said I prefer leg holds , don't think snares should even be allowed way to many non target animals caught.
Like I said MAY not be such an issue, they can be set in certain areas to help in not catching non-target species and
can be removed the next day if the wolves do not return to the site instead of being left there for up to a few weeks at
a time in between checks, but to better answer your question, depends on the rancher or trapper, very few are found alive in snares
where most will be in leg holds if checked regularly but for releasing them here there is some ranchers and trappers that will make sure they all
end up dead, in season or out and targeted species or not.
Sorry don't work for the government. You sound like a rancher /outfitter by some of your comments though.

You know LBM, the more you post on this the clearer it becomes you really don't have a clue what you're talking about.
Unless it's the creation of a diversion？
Do you want to elaborate some more on leaving snares or traps for up to a few weeks at a time between checks?
Last I knew the checking schedule was a maximum of 72 hours on crown and 24 on private.
Your right man, I am a rancher and an outfitter as a lot of guys on this forum are fully aware.... I don't think I need to hide behind some made up name.

[steveo]

Bears both grizzly and black, deer, cougars, domestic dogs, you could also include coyote for not the target species but legal when in an open season.
I am talking about wolf snare sets.Must be a type-o, it read like you did not like the use of snares in the regular trapping season.

[LBM]

You know LBM, the more you post on this the clearer it becomes you really don't have a clue what you're talking about.
Unless it's the creation of a diversion？
Do you want to elaborate some more on leaving snares or traps for up to a few weeks at a time between checks?
Last I knew the checking schedule was a maximum of 72 hours on crown and 24 on private.
Your right man, I am a rancher and an outfitter as a lot of guys on this forum are fully aware.... I don't think I need to hide behind some made up name.

Page 90 in the regs, 14 days with killing snares or traps

[bearvalley]

Page 90 in the regs, 14 days with killing snares or traps

Try that with problem wildlife removal and see how long you last in the game.

[LBM]

Try that with problem wildlife removal and see how long you last in the game.

Wouldn't for one and that pertains to regular season traplines.

[Seeadler]

Old timers told me things went wrong when the government trapper went on salary, before that if he didn't get them he didn't eat, after that he spent all his time curling.

[LBM]

Must be a type-o, it read like you did not like the use of snares in the regular trapping season.
No type-0, Im not a fan of snares.

[gcreek]

Old timers told me things went wrong when the government trapper went on salary, before that if he didn't get them he didn't eat, after that he spent all his time curling.

Might be a bit of stretch to that story.

[Xenomorph]

No offense, when did this turn into a philosophical discussion about methods used? Start your own thread with the pro and cons of your liking, I'd like to hear updates from the active management of an issue going on here.

[steveo]

No type-0, Im not a fan of snares.In regards to the legalities, ethics and effectiveness of snares, what is your base for your opinion.

[two-feet]

Trapping, much like hunting, involves the killing of animals. Some people find it counterintuitive, or even distasteful, but both can be very useful tools in game management and conservation.

Wildlife should be managed through science, not emotions.

[LBM]

In regards to the legalities, ethics and effectiveness of snares, what is your base for your opinion.

My opinion is based on what I have seen in person and what I have read and seen on various trapping sites in the past except now they don't want and some don't allow
people to post up what happens.
Again this is mostly pertaining to wolf/coyote snares. To many non-target species caught, they are not always as effective and quick as some say, chew outs or twist offs
and also with the large amounts some put out they cant remember where they all are so some are left, mind you have found conibears left before as well.

[steveo]

My opinion is based on what I have seen in person and what I have read and seen on various trapping sites in the past except now they don't want and some don't allow
people to post up what happens.
Again this is mostly pertaining to wolf/coyote snares. To many non-target species caught, they are not always as effective and quick as some say, chew outs or twist offs
and also with the large amounts some put out they cant remember where they all are so some are left, mind you have found conibears left before as well.Just out of curiosity, how many snares have you set over your trapping career.

[bearvalley]

Just out of curiosity, how many snares have you set over your trapping career.

I was going to ask the same question.
A well placed snare is more effective than a poorly set trap.
During the non regular trapping season when dealing with problem wildlife, snares are not an option.

[bearvalley]

I'd like to hear updates from the active management of an issue going on here.

Another one went out today.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

How many estimated in that pack? This time of year it can be really tough to guess the right number in a pack. I would be interested in how Dan or Kyle come up with there estimates.

[LBM]

I was going to ask the same question.
A well placed snare is more effective than a poorly set trap.
During the non regular trapping season when dealing with problem wildlife, snares are not an option.
Interesting one of the ranchers here said his trapper had snares out after the regular season.

[LBM]

Another one went out today.
In the same kind of set up.

[bearvalley]

How many estimated in that pack? This time of year it can be really tough to guess the right number in a pack. I would be interested in how Dan or Kyle come up with there estimates.

Doug, even tho this bunch is totally educated as far as removal goes, they still leave tracks. No different than camping behind your hounds for a while...you know how many your following.
Thats one of the biggest faults with predator removal I can see...lack of homework. Too many times a pack is worked on with no idea of when or if the problem will end. The plan is run on luck and hope.
Dan and I have been friends for 35 years, the man is a professional. If he or Kyle target a pack...the pack is done unless they get interference.

[bearvalley]

Interesting one of the ranchers here said his trapper had snares out after the regular season.
You got a name....or are you just peddling more BS.

[LBM]

You got a name....or are you just peddling more BS.

Yes and what BS am I peddling

[bearvalley]

It seems LBM that you don't like ranchers, outfitters or trappers to much.
Or maybe you're just an all around shit disturber that wants to pretend to be a CO.
Have you got anything worthwhile to contribute to this thread ?
If not maybe take the advice of one of the previous posters....and....disappear.

[tomcat]

LBM for your edification:

Compared to methods nature uses to control excess predator populations snaring is relatively humane. Disease and parasite infections take weeks and months to kill these animals. In proper perspective snaring is very humane when using a good lock along with a dispatch assistance spring and proper setting for the target species. With a good snaring system the vast majority of your catch will be DOA, site area disturbance minimal allowing the location to be reused and the animal will show little, if any, edema. Experience and education are the key to successful humane snaring.

As far as non-target catches are concerned they are very minimal compared to road kill statistics, and they are often other predators. Unfortunately under the best systems shyte occasionally happens.

[Gateholio]

It seems LBM that you don't like ranchers, outfitters or trappers to much.
Or maybe you're just an all around shit disturber that wants to pretend to be a CO.
Have you got anything worthwhile to contribute to this thread ?
If not maybe take the advice of one of the previous posters....and....disappear.

About time you realized conversing with some people is a waste of time. :)

[bearvalley]

Now to put this thread back on track a bit as to predator management and what's gone wrong.
I've identified a group of wolves that have been manipulated into specific cattle killers and have seen first hand the impact they have had through both dead and chewed up victims. Over the time period of 2 grazing seasons (appr 14 months on both crown and private) this one, relatively small pack has hit over 100 head.
Remember, all the chewed up ones would have died as well if they hadn't been treated.
The other 10 months (winter, non grazing season) of these last 2 years this pack of cur wolves would have been forced to work harder and live off of moose, elk, caribou, deer and rabbits.
Do the math on how much impact they have had on wildlife, we already know what they have killed for cattle.
Now take into consideration that there are at least 2 other larger packs (one pack was arial counted at 17) within my range unit that as far as we know have stayed within their natural diet of wildlife.
It doesn't take a PH.D. to figure out why we need to have a moose recovery plan, why caribou herds are in trouble, why elk populations have dropped, big bucks are no longer in abundance and some bighorn sheep bands have almost disappeared.
I realize we have issues with habitat and access, there are ticks and global warming could also be a factor.
These are all things that time will be needed to either fix or see if it's really the problem.
Proper predator management is the fastest fix to bring balance back to the equation.

[panhead]

Sorry to hear of your losses ... just curious ... haw many you figure are in that relatively small pack? If you take out most of the pack are the remainders likely to join up with another pack or stay on their own?
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A widow is sure to want to marry again. She knows all about men, and the only man who knows all about her is dead

[bearvalley]

panhead, it started off last year as a pack of 7.
A young male and 3 pups got stupid last fall and caught bullets.
A bred female (6 pups in her) was removed in March.
The alpha male and two 5 month old pups were recently taken out leaving 1 more female and another this year pup.
Pretty sure these last 2 will go as well. Tracks show they are still around looking for the rest of the tribe.
This shows what wolf numbers can do. If last years pack of 7 had been left alone it would have consisted of 16 wolves in that pack today.
That's one pack in a small corner of this province, now apply the math on a large scale.

[Ohwildwon]

The only real way for the average hunter to put a dent in the wolf pop,
is to be legally able to hunt at night...

Is hell going to freeze over for this to happen?

[panhead]

panhead, it started off last year as a pack of 7.
A young male and 3 pups got stupid last fall and caught bullets.
A bred female (6 pups in her) was removed in March.
The alpha male and two 5 month old pups were recently taken out leaving 1 more female and another this year pup.
Pretty sure these last 2 will go as well. Tracks show they are still around looking for the rest of the tribe.
This shows what wolf numbers can do. If last years pack of 7 had been left alone it would have consisted of 16 wolves in that pack today.
That's one pack in a small corner of this province, now apply the math on a large scale.

Math comes hard to me but that is a LOT of multiplying ... yikes ...
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If you're too busy to go huntin', you're too busy."

[Surrey Boy]

The only real way for the average hunter to put a dent in the wolf pop,
is to be legally able to hunt at night...

Is hell going to freeze over for this to happen?

Fort Nelson freezes over every year.

[Ohwildwon]

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll37/mikemcclement/13077061_1613710012285494_8999627845188358509_n_zp s9gwj6yd2.png (http://s284.photobucket.com/user/mikemcclement/media/13077061_1613710012285494_8999627845188358509_n_zp s9gwj6yd2.png.html)

[Surrey Boy]

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll37/mikemcclement/13077061_1613710012285494_8999627845188358509_n_zp s9gwj6yd2.png (http://s284.photobucket.com/user/mikemcclement/media/13077061_1613710012285494_8999627845188358509_n_zp s9gwj6yd2.png.html)

Where can I buy that shirt?

[Ohwildwon]

It was an ad on Facebook, tried to find it, no luck...

Probably come up again, you know when..:wink:

[Surrey Boy]

I'll get it engraved on something.

[LBM]

LBM for your edification:

Compared to methods nature uses to control excess predator populations snaring is relatively humane. Disease and parasite infections take weeks and months to kill these animals. In proper perspective snaring is very humane when using a good lock along with a dispatch assistance spring and proper setting for the target species. With a good snaring system the vast majority of your catch will be DOA, site area disturbance minimal allowing the location to be reused and the animal will show little, if any, edema. Experience and education are the key to successful humane snaring.

As far as non-target catches are concerned they are very minimal compared to road kill statistics, and they are often other predators. Unfortunately under the best systems shyte occasionally happens.

Tomcat I do agree with experience and education are needed and mean no disrespect but have heard lots of the other stuff before. Maybe in your experience its different.
I have been told before by trappers how there snares kill so fast and efficient but have seen the opposite. The one guy called me to tell me of the large wolf he had just caught
and how fast it died, now since it had been there for almost a week and had snowed since but that was not the case since I had already seen it, he also always stated no non-target
catches which I also new was not true but at least now that he knows others no he turns them in. Like I have mentioned before you see lots of stuff that goes on when your in the bush.
So with disease and parasites with this also include the ticks that they are saying is affecting the moose, have found them in sheep as well deep inside the ear canals so could be an issue
there as well. You could include starving as a very slow unpleasant death as well, seen quit a few young that have died because of this for there mother was caught in a snare/trap, and the
adult ones that have broke the snare cable off and get to weak to hunt.
Every thing is fairly minimal to road kills so not really a good example, the odds of stopping driving are pretty slim but there could be changes made to trapping.

[LBM]

panhead, it started off last year as a pack of 7.
A young male and 3 pups got stupid last fall and caught bullets.
A bred female (6 pups in her) was removed in March.
The alpha male and two 5 month old pups were recently taken out leaving 1 more female and another this year pup.
Pretty sure these last 2 will go as well. Tracks show they are still around looking for the rest of the tribe.
This shows what wolf numbers can do. If last years pack of 7 had been left alone it would have consisted of 16 wolves in that pack today.
That's one pack in a small corner of this province, now apply the math on a large scale.

So your saying there was 2 breed females in the pack do you think that is a regular occurance or maybe something that just happens in smaller packs or where
some have just been removed. I was just informed about an increase in a pack here, it had been staying around 4-5 last couple years but 2 were taking out last winter
one of which was the alpha male according to the person that got them. so that left 3 but now according to trail cameras of others they have increased to 8. Have a friend in that area now
so may no more at a later date.

[bearvalley]

So your saying there was 2 breed females in the pack do you think that is a regular occurance or maybe something that just happens in smaller packs or where
some have just been removed. I was just informed about an increase in a pack here, it had been staying around 4-5 last couple years but 2 were taking out last winter
one of which was the alpha male according to the person that got them. so that left 3 but now according to trail cameras of others they have increased to 8. Have a friend in that area now
so may no more at a later date.

It's pretty common for more than one female in a group of wolves to breed and have pups.
Its pretty common for each bitch wolf to have 4 to 6 pups or more.
You, of all people should know that LBM.
Im glad you have a friend.