What in the F is happening in 5-03?!?!?!

[Busterpayton54]

a couple friends and I just took ourselves on a little wilderness back country camping trip out to hungry valley, near big creek... Almost the most south west corner of 5-03. I haven't been there since around 2003 give or take..
I saw the widening of the 3100rd, I saw when the 3100rd paralleled the valley on the northern slopes with some small cut blocks.

It was still fairly wild back then. I don't know if a day went by that we didn't see at least one grizzly, or a half dozen moose. It was a regular thing to wake up and glass the shoreline from camp and see moose on one side and bears on the other. Shit piles and prints everywhere.

well let me tell you, it ain't like that now. I've always scoured the area via Google earth since its existed. I saw new road going in, new cut blocks popping up, and I've bombed around the fsr's to see what's open, locked and so on.

The best I could tell from the locked gates and the images on google earth that that area was essentially unmolested.

Anyways back lack to the trip... This was an off-road adventure, so we took the old jeep trail from the 3100rd past stobie lake, along the creek to gaspard lake, beyond over whales mountain and down to hungry valley. The trail sees such little use one might not even notice it or would lose it if they didn't know the way. I was so excited to get to our destination in some real wilderness.
The valley did not disappoint in beauty. The cattle haven't been in there yet. The grass is tall and green.
Due to a mechanical issue on my friends truck we set up camp near the east shore of the 1st un-named lake for Saturday night.
It was well past dark when we'd finished settling in and eating. My friend gave out a wolf call, and boy did it get noisy. The girls were not impressed. Eventually they stopped answering, it got quiet and we never heard a peep, but an hour or so later my dog has his teeth out so I put him to bed before something went sideways, turned in shortly after myself.

Well come sunday morning there wasn't a creature in sight. Not even birds chirping. It was creepy. Dead silent except for the stream and passenger jets. We packed up and began our trip out. We found one new moose print and quite a bit of wolf.

the lack of wildlife really let me down. I couldn't figure out why it was so desolate out there yet look so pristine.

I just found out why, thanks to a brand new update on my google that has a glitch at a certain zoom and shows me things that I can't see at any other zoom.

The place has been devastated. They've actually gone in and clear cut stands of trees out in the meadows but leaving just a thin perimeter. It's sickening to see this. There was so much habitat there, now it looks like the percentage is in single digits.

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I can keep going on....

There is nothing living there in comparison. I'm sickened. I know we need wood, but there's got to be better practices, a balance between how much habitat you leave intact vs harvest, and some areas you just don't touch.

Is it because of the big creek park that they can't have so they are clear cutting to its borders?

Barf...

[GrandA]

tnx for sharing. its unfortunate.

[Corb89]

Thats sucks, very little we can do about logging, we can however, kill wolves!!...and yet no one seems to put in the effort:confused:

[Ltbullken]

Was it beetle kill logged out?

[Brew]

^^^^THIS is the reason Im betting. The forests have been getting raped by that beetle for some time now. I buy lodgepole pine for a living and its pretty scarce these days. The spruce beetle is next

[Caribou_lou]

Clear cuts are going to be habitat. Once they grow up and you are unable to see/shoot a moose that is only 30 yards off the road that area will be crawling with moose!

Also so you were there middle of summer. I've never had much luck seeing any moose this time of year in the areas I hunt.

[Busterpayton54]

Yea I suppose it could be beetle kill. I haven't been out that way for about 10ysars until recently checking the fsr's but gates kept me from getting close to the valley, but this time took my bush truck in through the old way. I've never seen beetle kill in there but a lot can change in 10 years, and on this trip I wasn't looking for it, they may have done a pretty good job of taking it.

id love to put an effort into taking some of the wolves out, but I can't get a straight answer from the co if I can hunt them in hungry valley or not wih the aid of motor vehicle/atv.

There is motorvehicle and atv restrictions in the area, beyond this bridge or this km on these roads and any branches of.

When I was trying to get the facts from a co regarding the regs in the valley I was unaware of all the fsr access, because there wasn't really any access to the valley from any of those roads, access was via the jeep trail. But now that the valley is accessible via fsr I believe it more likely than not is restricted, and it's a long long walk from the gates.... However I don't know if the border runs straight east west or if it's a creek or height of land or a east west road, if that's the case it may be feasible to camp at the border and walk in, but trying to find that information out has beer frustrating.

[Eastbranch]

Clear cuts are going to be habitat. Once they grow up and you are unable to see/shoot a moose that is only 30 yards off the road that area will be crawling with moose!

Also so you were there middle of summer. I've never had much luck seeing any moose this time of year in the areas I hunt.
Except not because herbicide

[MichelD]

I had a moose draw there some years ago now. Missed a cranker of a bull that trip. But there were moose to be seen and deer too.

Sad to hear, but I've been told recently that it's not worth applying an LEH there with the logging and another impact on the moose as well.

[adriaticum]

Ah yes, another victim of Google earth.

[wideopenthrottle]

we have the early LEH in 5-2...hopefully all the moose went there...:grin:

[Busterpayton54]

Clear cuts are going to be habitat. Once they grow up and you are unable to see/shoot a moose that is only 30 yards off the road that area will be crawling with moose!

Also so you were there middle of summer. I've never had much luck seeing any moose this time of year in the areas I hunt.

Ive spent at least a month and a half worth of summer in that very valley.

We need to put a dent in those wolves. The government needs to do something. Lift some restrictions, let us hunt the black bears and wolves via atv/truck. Culls.

I'm going to get back in contact with the Williams lake co's and get some definitive boundary borders, and hopefully things work out that I can get back there for a week in a month or so.

I wonder if 20lbs of tannerite under some rotting chicken would be a legal method of harvesting wolves, 5-6 for 1? Lol

[Busterpayton54]

Anyways, some pics of the trip.....http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2328.jpg (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/busterpayton54/media/IMG_2328.jpg.html)http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2330.jpg (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/busterpayton54/media/IMG_2330.jpg.html)http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2339.jpg (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/busterpayton54/media/IMG_2339.jpg.html)http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2343.jpg (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/busterpayton54/media/IMG_2343.jpg.html)http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2354.jpg (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/busterpayton54/media/IMG_2354.jpg.html)

[Busterpayton54]

http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2357.jpg (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/busterpayton54/media/IMG_2357.jpg.html)http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2366.jpg (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/busterpayton54/media/IMG_2366.jpg.html)http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2358.jpg (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/busterpayton54/media/IMG_2358.jpg.html)http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2360.jpg (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/busterpayton54/media/IMG_2360.jpg.html)http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2371.jpg (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/busterpayton54/media/IMG_2371.jpg.html)

[Busterpayton54]

http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2372.jpg (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/busterpayton54/media/IMG_2372.jpg.html)http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2378.jpg (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/busterpayton54/media/IMG_2378.jpg.html)http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2379.jpg (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/busterpayton54/media/IMG_2379.jpg.html)http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2383.jpg (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/busterpayton54/media/IMG_2383.jpg.html)http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2386.jpg (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/busterpayton54/media/IMG_2386.jpg.html)

[Busterpayton54]

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[Busterpayton54]

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[Busterpayton54]

http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2447.jpg (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/busterpayton54/media/IMG_2447.jpg.html)http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2455.jpg (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/busterpayton54/media/IMG_2451.jpg.html)http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2451.jpghttp://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2488.jpg (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/busterpayton54/media/IMG_2488.jpg.html)http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2501.jpg (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/busterpayton54/media/IMG_2501.jpg.html)

[Brew]

Copied from a BC Gov website. Sorry to be a downer but some of your pictures may be incriminating.

Environmental Protection of Crown Land

The Province of BC has enacted laws intended to prevent damage to the environment. These laws apply to publicly owned land and are intended to protect streams, plants, wildlife habitat, wetlands and other sensitive ecosystems. Some examples of activities that result in damage to the environment include: driving/riding off-road vehicles into streams and through swamps; damaging soil; spilling petroleum into streams, wetlands and lakes; polluting water and dumping garbage or waste. It is also illegal to build a trail on Crown (public) land without authority. Persons found in contravention of these laws may be subject to prosecution.
For more information on protecting the environment, and how to report forest crimes or environmental damage see the linked brochure (https://www.for.gov.bc.ca/ftp/hen/external/!publish/web/otherPublication/ProtectOurForestsAndRangeLand.pdf).

https://www.for.gov.bc.ca/ftp/hen/external/!publish/web/otherPublication/ProtectOurForestsAndRangeLand.pdf

[Husky7mm]

Looks like an awesome place, why on earth have you not been there since 2003? Oh ya, driving up steams is a no no, like brew said plus you dont want to talk out of both sides of your mouth.

[butthead]

now thats what i call
man made global warming
getting rid of the forest

[604Stalker]

We call it moonscaping. Kinda gross to see happend to a neighbor and I on a trip ..dosent take long for them to takeout whole hecters of trees nowdays... I guess sad enough you gotta wait two years and fight the trees they plant 2 inches apart.

[rattling_junkie]

Sad that they have logged the area or beetle damage, and sad that there is vehicle access.

[Busterpayton54]

There was no driving up streams or fooling around in mud. We followed the exact ruts that have been laid in place by the first vehicle back in the 30's or 40's as well as 3000 cattle trample their way through and along this trail, up and down these streams each and every year since the late 1800's. We did not deviate off the trail what so ever, at all, period.

[Busterpayton54]

You are welcome to examine, compare our tracks to the pre-existing path seen from outer space. I realize the quality is sub par, but hopefully it gets the point across. I drive a vehicle like this not only so I can go where others can't, but also because it's very light, it's got ground clearance, and tires this size on a vehicle this light have less ground pressure than a human walking. I take pride in basically being a back country ninja.

http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2551.png (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/busterpayton54/media/IMG_2551.png.html)http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2550.png (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/busterpayton54/media/IMG_2550.png.html)http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2548.png (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/busterpayton54/media/IMG_2548.png.html)http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2547.png (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/busterpayton54/media/IMG_2547.png.html)

[Busterpayton54]

http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2546.png (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/busterpayton54/media/IMG_2546.png.html)http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u445/busterpayton54/IMG_2545.png (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/busterpayton54/media/IMG_2545.png.html)

[mpotzold]

There was no driving up streams or fooling around in mud. We followed the exact ruts that have been laid in place by the first vehicle back in the 30's or 40's as well as 3000 cattle trample their way through and along this trail, up and down these streams each and every year since the late 1800's. We did not deviate off the trail what so ever, at all, period.

I believe you 100%! Been there, done that!
Now you know why some hunters are reluctant to post photos/videos!

[Caribou_lou]

There was no driving up streams or fooling around in mud. We followed the exact ruts that have been laid in place by the first vehicle back in the 30's or 40's as well as 3000 cattle trample their way through and along this trail, up and down these streams each and every year since the late 1800's. We did not deviate off the trail what so ever, at all, period.

Possible this is a reason of the moose decline instead of the clear cuts?

[dino]

Did you see Ted at the lake or is he even there any more? (Chico choate)

[Busterpayton54]

Possible this is a reason of the moose decline instead of the clear cuts?
I don't know, there was plenty of moose back in my dads days in the 80's, it had been part of gang ranches grazing land for 100years at that point, then it was pretty good in my opinion, and my old
man had nothing bad to say either in the 2000's which puts it at 120years... Then bam! 10 more
and it's a deserted but still beautiful piece of land.

I I just can't wait, fingers crossed for the cuts to green up and the wildlife to return, and I'll be doing my best to adjust the predators.

[Busterpayton54]

Did you see Ted at the lake or is he even there any more? (Chico choate) I don't know what he's up to these days. I've met him a few times out there, even ran into him returning from riding his atv in the no atv's allowed park that he was part of creating! He was pretty much deaf as a rock, iirc in his 70-80's back around 2000 something, wintering in Williams lake, summering at his cabin. He signed our copy of unfriendly neibours... Which was lent out and never returned... Can't find it in any stores anywhere

Due to the lack of traffic heading to hungry, we missed the fork in the trail and headed almost right up to his cabin, it looks like someone is spending a fair bit of time around it. We turned around as soon as we realized I missed the turn so I didn't really get a close up but it lookes
lome there's rv's, atv's, boats, trucks.

[Drillbit]

There was no driving up streams or fooling around in mud. We followed the exact ruts that have been laid in place by the first vehicle back in the 30's or 40's as well as 3000 cattle trample their way through and along this trail, up and down these streams each and every year since the late 1800's. We did not deviate off the trail what so ever, at all, period.

Great post.

Some people just don't "get it"


Can't pin it down, but it seems they are jealous and want to discredit.......


Beautiful piece of the planet, thanks for the pictures.

[Whonnock Boy]

IMO, Brew broached the subject with honesty and respect, and Payton reacted in kind. I'll be honest, the photos do not appear to be above board, and I would be hesitant to condone such behaviour. I guess the question is, are these roads, still considered roads? Either way, there is no need to be jumping on either of their backs.

Aside from that, I appreciate you sharing your adventure.

[Busterpayton54]

Meh, I'd consider them existing roads as described by the regulations. Sure some stretches no longer show dirt drips but the path is still obvious if you know where it lies or were looking for it. My earlier wrong turn was due to simply following the beaten path as it's always been fairly beaten, no noticing the turn off that hasn't been used much if at all this year or longer, it was easy and obvious once I realized I had to find it.

The he fact the path can be seen on google earth from satellites traveling through outter space should indicate what it will look like in a couple weeks after 3000 cows have marched through turning every blade of grass into pattys, eating the vegetation right down to the soil and trampling every square inch of the creeks, marshes doing more "damage" than motorized vehicles could.

Believe me, after the cattle run through the place is barren of vegetation, any and all soft ground looks as if a toto tiller has churned up every inch. It's still beautiful, but seeing it before the cows is a whole other level.

If I get a chance I'll scan some prints from previous trips after the cattle have been in and it sure doesn't look the same.

I can can travel over soft earth and barely leave an impression, where a man walking would sink to his shins and a cow will be up to its elbows. Chained up I can travel through snow that I fall chest deep in when I exit the truck.

For comparrison the average walking human exerts about 16psi ground pressure given the average weight to shoe size, the average walking horse is about 50psi (I'd assume a cow is similar), my truck with the tires aired down is about 5.5 psi of ground pressure, so it's easy to see which will disturb the surface more, so long as I drive responsibly.

[Corb89]

I am definetly no expert on range management, but, if you can ever compare land that is grazed by cattle to land that isn't you may see a big difference in the amount of weeds and other undesireable growth, due to the lack of grazing. my opinion

[MichelD]

https://www.facebook.com/chilco.choate

[badgreenbird]

Look at any map showing the location of invasive weed species (most regional districts have such a thing) and invariably the worst infestations are where the cattle and community pastures are. Responsible / rotational grazing doesn't seem to seriously affect the forest, but old school "turn 'em out in May, round 'em up in October" cattle management can result in seriously compacted & overgrazed areas.

Those clearcuts will be great moose and small game habitat in the next couple of decades - as long as they aren't sprayed too heavily with herbicide. They definitely look like complete moonscapes for the first few years though. It may also have been a 'one entrance' strategy by the forest company. If they cut that much at once, they may not be planning to come back for 80 years