Big drop in Elk numbers

[358mag]

Hunters in British Columbia's East Kootenay region are warning of what they say is a dramatic drop in the number of elk in the southeastern corner of the province.
The president of the East Kootenay Hunters Association, Larry Hall, says the province must do more to protect elk and moose.
He says elk populations, in particular, have declined by almost 75 per cent in less than 50 years.
Hall does not support a ban on hunting, saying hunters are very conscious of the problem and don't believe a ban would help replenish stocks.
Instead, he calls on Cranbrook-area hunters to join a club to add clout to organizations demanding change.
Hall says elk populations have fallen steadily over several decades.
"We've had as much as 30,000 elk in the East Kootenay and now we are down to 7,500 to 8,000 elk. We're down to about a quarter of the elk population that we had 40 and 50 years ago," he says.
The East Kootenay Hunters Association is a member club of the regional wildlife assoc

[Caribou_lou]

What is the cause of the decline?

[BgBlkDg]

Vastly increased motorized access with scores of hunters afield every day during hunting season is one. Ingrowth of forest cover into available grazing lands is another, this often due to rigorous wildfire suppression .

Competition for native forage with domestic cattle is a factor and all such Crown Land grazing should be permanently banned as ranchers should not have such privileged access to these lands.

ALL "non-resident alien" hunting in the Kootenays must be banned, there is NOT sufficient game left to allow foreigners to kill OUR game and this INCLUDES the appalling practice of American-born aboriginals coming across the border to slaughter OUR game and take it home to places such as Colville, WA. ALL hunting in the Kootenays MUST be reserved for we BC citizens.

PREDATOR control, including a five bear per year bag limit for any BC resident, with "no fee" tags and no mandatory meat removal, just the hide, claws and skull should be instituted forthwith and poisoning of wolves, coyotes and trapping of Cougars will also assist in building and maintaining elk herds.

VERY tight limits, ruthlessly enforced, on aboriginal slaughter of OUR game, no exceptions and NO "mercy". Mandatory FIVE full year sentences for conviction of poaching on the FIRST offence with NO exceptions, this for ALL citizens.

NO MORE GO "lodges" allowed anywhere as the new one on Kootenay Lake on the southwest shore, catering largely to rich Yankees and NO MORE alienation of Crown Lands, especially lakefront to allow the wealthy to build monster "vacation homes".

IF, ALL of these were instituted and strictly enforced, with perhaps some transplanting from Banff and Jasper herds, there COULD be a major recovery, but, with a Christy Clark government......dream on. The NDP would be NO better as it was they who promoted the special status for BC aboriginals to slaughter all the game they wish and even leave the meat to rot in the field.

Will most or any of these happen, I doubt it and think that the Kootenays is now more a playground for "boarders", "climbers" and assorted liberal hairheads and far too many tourists. Sad, but, hunters are fighting a losing battle, IMHO.

[J_T]

The cattlemen in the area do not want 30,000 elk. The elk were specifically targeted to bring the population down. And they did. It's the same story that's been playing out since I can remember. Elk numbers rise, the ranchers scream and get the attention of the politicians, Gov steps in with an objective to reduce population numbers. Elk numbers drop, and Hunters scream and get the attention of the politicians, and steps are taken to increase numbers.

[findlyflats]

Last year in the findley flats, a lady hunting elk said , Its the logging that's killing the elk. I asked what she meant, she said , the new forests are killing the grass.
I know that is the case where i live on the west coast, the new forests are dead zones, they are now just tree farms, the forest is gone.

[boblly1]

be careful what you ask for in saying that i am all for managing the resources better but keep in mind the next time you put in for an alberta or saskatewan or any other canadian provinces limited entry hunting lottery or muley whitetails elk or moose antelope in any of our southern neighbours states that you have just become a bonified hypochrite just saying

[BgBlkDg]

My, how very interesting, even with the illiterate usage.

I am IN FAVOUR of extended access to BC hunting for our fellow CANADIANS and am certainly NOT a "hypocrite" as the term is correctly spelled.

Perhaps, you are a "guide" or even a foreigner and are concerned about access to further foreign decimation of BC resources?

[LBM]

My, how every interesting, even with the illiterate usage.

I am IN FAVOUR of extended access to BC hunting for our fellow CANADIANS and am certainly NOT a "hypocrite" as the term is correctly spelled.

Perhaps, you are a "guide" or even a foreigner and are concerned about access to further foreign decimation of BC resources?

I could be wrong but you may want to check your spelling/wording before calling people out on theres.
You may not be as perfect as you think you are.

[Everett]

Reality is the carrying capacity of the winter range in the trench is roughly 12,000 elk which means they need to keep the herd at %80 of that. So until we get more winter range we can't have anymore Elk.

[BgBlkDg]

I could be wrong but you may want to check your spelling/wording before calling people out on theres.
You may not be as perfect as you think you are.


Laffin', there IS a typo in my first sentence, "mea culpa" and it VERY seldom happens. I should not drink coffee while posting.

As to "perfect", I suggest that the term is THEIRS, not "theres"..........

NO offence, just a little chuckle at both of us.

[wideopenthrottle]

there seems to be lots of their words they're messing up...

[LBM]

Laffin', there IS a typo in my first sentence, "mea culpa" and it VERY seldom happens. I should not drink coffee while posting.

As to "perfect", I suggest that the term is THEIRS, not "theres"..........

NO offence, just a little chuckle at both of us.

No worrys one spelling error in a sentence is pretty darn good for me.

[BgBlkDg]

"there"? Perhaps "There"? ;) laffin'......

[wideopenthrottle]

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documents/elk.pdf

and back to the elk.......I .found this paper on our elk..have not read it yet..prolly at lunch...looking forward to it

[Fisher-Dude]

Reality is the carrying capacity of the winter range in the trench is roughly 12,000 elk which means they need to keep the herd at %80 of that. So until we get more winter range we can't have anymore Elk.


Yep. And that's linked to what JT said about competition with cattlemen for scarce range nutrition.

And sorry Dewey, but with 6 point bull only seasons, regulated hunting has nothing to do with elk population numbers. 180 cow elk taken under LEH per year in the entirety of region 4 has no effect either, and cannot be attributed to thousands of "missing" elk.

Bull:cow ratios are still above the 20:100 targets, with ratios of 23:100 to 35:100 in the last surveys in the EK, higher in the WK.

Cow to calf ratios have dropped to below 30:100 in Cranbrook and Fernie GMZs in some samples, which is cause for alarm. Bears love tender calves. So do wolves and cats.

Adult survival rates have dropped in the Trench, but hunting still only contributes to 5% today, as it did in the 1980s - early 1990s (the difference between 97% and 92%, and 86% and 81% in the data sets below):

EK Trench 86-93 83 64 99% (97-100%) 97% (95-99%) 92% (84-98%)
EK Trench 07-10 41 82 91% (87-95%) 86% (80-90%) 81% (75-86%)

The increase in adult mortality appears to be due to non-hunting related deaths from humans (car collisions increased by 2 - 3 times over 20 years), predation, and poor habitat.

[325]

More grizzlies = less elk. The EK is infested with grizzly.

[Spy]

More grizzlies = less elk. The EK is infested with grizzly.
I will second that & many, many wolves, last years hunt instead of elk bugling, we had wolves howling.

[wideopenthrottle]

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documents/elk.pdf

and back to the elk.......I .found this paper on our elk..have not read it yet..prolly at lunch...looking forward to it

it was a very basic information type thing for public consumption..no real meat and potatoes

[boxhitch]

Reality is the carrying capacity of the winter range in the trench is roughly 12,000 elk which means they need to keep the herd at %80 of that. So until we get more winter range we can't have anymore ElkWould be interesting to see stats on the human pop changes in 20 years as well as how the landbase has changed by development and urban sprawl. Maybe range practices have changed too ?
Blame the climate or the goberment, but the largest impacts are cause by human presence and activities, no turning back from that.

[J_T]

While the authors of various reports use numbers like 40,000, and 30,000 historic populations I have asked Government and no one is able to produce evidence of a study that definitively quantified the number at 25,000, or 30,000 etc. We agree, they just pull a number out of thin air, and manage the trend from there. Even when we believed there were 25,000 elk, there really only were 14,000, and the ranching community was up in arms. But, if a collaboration can be found between Ranchers, range and habitat, there is no question the EK can support 40,000 and that would be great.

Regarding predators, we all know the most recent science suggests Grizzly numbers are dropping. Most of us find that hard to believe, but that's the current science. And while this information is being challenged, it will be the basis for future decisions.

[Fisher-Dude]

Would be interesting to see stats on the human pop changes in 20 years as well as how the landbase has changed by development and urban sprawl. Maybe range practices have changed too ?
Blame the climate or the goberment, but the largest impacts are cause by human presence and activities, no turning back from that.

One of the biggest human impacts on available winter forage has been exclusionary fencing.

[J_T]

One of the biggest human impacts on available winter forage has been exclusionary fencing.Absolutely. That and golf courses. And we could be mitigating this on the bottom end of the primary migration drainages (St Mary's, Bull River) if we managed transitional range and the primary winter range at the outflow. Pickering Hills and Premier Ridge are good examples.

[Bugle M In]

I never thought I would be one to "bitch" about Elk #'s.
The area I hunt always had "Low Elk #'s", but that also equated to "low hunter #'s" in the same area, which was the way I liked it.
But, these past couple of years have been "Brutal" in trying to find any Elk.
Hard to know at times how good the science is, so I just go on what I experience.
I know some years, big game can move around, so it may appear a valley is dead, when it's not.
But, what I do see every year, is increasing Wolf.....obviously.
I also see G-Bear on a regular basis now....never saw them for 40 years up there, but now daily and not the same one.
(bring in a Fall LEH G-Bear....IMO)
Also, the logging, as much as it has helped (due to lack of snow and "New Slides" being created in area as nature once did,
which rarely occur now), has also created easy access to area for hunting...legally and illegally.(major deactivation is needed...IMO)
As for Cattle, I leave that to others, as the area I hunt is not impacted directly for the most part, although it may very well be
impacted in the Winter Months.
All I can say is, consider yourself "lucky" to some degree if you harvest an Elk for the next few years.
The few who are having success on a continuous basis, are generally "friends" with people who have large farms/cattle on
private land. (this info was passed on to me by a CO Officer, who always gives me his personal observations to who is
having success yearly)
Over the 40 years, I have seen a lot of development in the Columbia Trench area, which I don't think helps either for sure.
Also, I was told some herds of Elk stay in BC to drop calves etc, and than in the Winter, migrate back into Alberta.
So, what is happening in Alberta as well comes to question.
If the Winter Ranges are still there, than it is factors in BC that are causing the greatest decline....predators?? or ???

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Weren't the numbers relatively high about 8 or so years ago??? This drop in population hasn't been a long term trend.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Makes me wonder when places south of the 49th like Idaho are targeting wolves to help increase their low elk herds.

[Husky7mm]

Yep. And that's linked to what JT said about competition with cattlemen for scarce range nutrition.

And sorry Dewey, but with 6 point bull only seasons, regulated hunting has nothing to do with elk population numbers. 180 cow elk taken under LEH per year in the entirety of region 4 has no effect either, and cannot be attributed to thousands of "missing" elk.

Bull:cow ratios are still above the 20:100 targets, with ratios of 23:100 to 35:100 in the last surveys in the EK, higher in the WK.

Cow to calf ratios have dropped to below 30:100 in Cranbrook and Fernie GMZs in some samples, which is cause for alarm. Bears love tender calves. So do wolves and cats.

Adult survival rates have dropped in the Trench, but hunting still only contributes to 5% today, as it did in the 1980s - early 1990s (the difference between 97% and 92%, and 86% and 81% in the data sets below):

EK Trench 86-93 83 64 (tel:86-93 83 64) 99% (97-100%) 97% (95-99%) 92% (84-98%)
EK Trench 07-10 41 82 (tel:07-10 41 82) 91% (87-95%) 86% (80-90%) 81% (75-86%)

The increase in adult mortality appears to be due to non-hunting related deaths from humans (car collisions increased by 2 - 3 times over 20 years), predation, and poor habitat.

There were thousands of cows shot for 4-5 years when they wanted the numbers reduced. Anyway this has been going on for years. I know when I moved to the EK in 05 I saw elk herds of over a few thousand in the winter. Herds of a few hundred were common in yhe winter also. I believe the trench can handle more than the 8000 they have now and more than the 12000 they say is capacity. They did lots of thinning and logging all up the sides of the trench and elk can handle a fair bit of snow.

[Bugle M In]

Weren't the numbers relatively high about 8 or so years ago??? This drop in population hasn't been a long term trend.

I am pretty sure there were problems in the 90's when all those LEH Cow Tags were handed out, and they were for entire
MU's, not just Zone X like there was recently.
To me, back than it was easy to bugle in Bulls, as there were no cows around (that's how it appeared to me)
Now, it is both genders at risk with low numbers.

[Fisher-Dude]

I am pretty sure there were problems in the 90's when all those LEH Cow Tags were handed out, and they were for entire
MU's, not just Zone X like there was recently.
To me, back than it was easy to bugle in Bulls, as there were no cows around (that's how it appeared to me)
Now, it is both genders at risk with low numbers.

I've seen much of the same you're experiencing.

In the 1970s, we bugled elk in with bamboo whistles we made ourselves or coiled up conduit pipe. We killed lots of elk.

In the 1980s, we found Larry D Jones, and now had a call that was basically humidity non-dependent. Success!

In the 1990s, we began to have wolves answering our elk calls, esp. the latter half of the decade.

In the 2000s, we had a few bulls come in, usually silently though, and wolves were a-howlin'. Cow calls helped but it was nothing like the days of old with competing, screaming bulls. The cow calls also brought hungry grizzly bears in many times.

In the 2010s, we've had a few answers, and I did have one bull come crashing in, but he winded me long before I got a look at him.

Big change from what I would consider "normal" elk behaviour. And it happened when the wolves and g-bears started butting in. That's anecdotal, but IMO, indicative of much of the problem.

[j270wsm]

Between 2006-2010 the elk population in the elk valley was at least double what it is now. 2011 the gov opened 150+ cow/calf tags from Fernie to 26km north of elkford. Since that time we have seen the population plummet. High numbers of leh tags coupled with a very healthy grizz population and exploding wolf numbers has Killed our elk herd. Hopefully the reduction in leh cow/calf tags( only 30 tags for 2016 )will be he start to rebuilding our elk herd.

[Fisher-Dude]

There were thousands of cows shot for 4-5 years when they wanted the numbers reduced.

Actually, the GOS antlerless season didn't take many "thousands" of cows out.

2008 - 649
2009 - 822
2010 - 983
2011 - 682
2012 - 640
2013 - 190

(These numbers also include calf harvest, as well as the LEH cow/calf harvest from the West Kootenays).


I think there are LOTS of other factors if the population has declined as dramatically as is claimed. The math just isn't adding up to the "thousands and thousands" of elk disappearing in the article.

[Fisher-Dude]

Between 2006-2010 the elk population in the elk valley was at least double what it is now. 2011 the gov opened 150+ cow/calf tags from Fernie to 26km north of elkford. Since that time we have seen the population plummet. High numbers of leh tags coupled with a very healthy grizz population and exploding wolf numbers has Killed our elk herd. Hopefully the reduction in leh cow/calf tags( only 30 tags for 2016 )will be he start to rebuilding our elk herd.

In 2011, only 54 cows/calves were shot in all of 4-23. Of those, 43 were cows. I believe the youth/senior season was still a go then too?

Let's not equate "numbers of tags" with "numbers of dead elk."

[j270wsm]

Your right, tags awarded doesn't equal the number of harvested animals.

Yes, they started the youth/senior season some time around 2008, But it was only 50tags. 09-10 it jumped to 100. Keep in mind this was in a pretty small area( 15km long by 2-3km wide) most of which is private and the elk don't use a lot.

I was off on my leh tag numbers for 2011, went and looked at my old leh synopsis'

2010-11 they expanded the zone and eliminated the youth/senior leh and reduced the tags to 49. 2012 had 49 tags as well, not sure about 2013( can't find my leh synopsis ). 2013-14 there was 74 tags

[Fisher-Dude]

Your right, tags awarded doesn't equal the number of harvested animals.

Yes, they started the youth/senior season some time around 2008, But it was only 50tags. 09-10 it jumped to 100. Keep in mind this was in a pretty small area( 15km long by 2-3km wide) most of which is private and the elk don't use a lot.

I was off on my leh tag numbers for 2011, went and looked at my old leh synopsis'

2010-11 they expanded the zone and eliminated the youth/senior leh and reduced the tags to 49. 2012 had 49 tags as well, not sure about 2013( can't find my leh synopsis ). 2013-14 there was 74 tags

Seems like they're throwing spaghetti against the wall to see if something sticks, doesn't it? All these changes in a short amount of time gives no reliable data on which to draw any wildlife management conclusions, IMO.

There's some question about what the Elk Valley population actually is. Latest literature says 2500 on the low side and 5000 on the high side. Of course, there are 2200 elk on mine property, so I'd say overall it's probably closer to the 5000 figure, with half unhuntable.

[rocksteady]

Unfortunately I do not put a lot of faith in the elk population "guesstimates".

with decreasing budgets, the amount of helicopter time allowed to do intense sampling, thus better numbers is gone.

instead of flying for 10 hours and factoring that by ten fold, they get 2 hours and multiply that by 50...

[Husky7mm]

I never thought I would be one to "bitch" about Elk #'s.
The area I hunt always had "Low Elk #'s", but that also equated to "low hunter #'s" in the same area, which was the way I liked it.
But, these past couple of years have been "Brutal" in trying to find any Elk.
Hard to know at times how good the science is, so I just go on what I experience.
I know some years, big game can move around, so it may appear a valley is dead, when it's not.
But, what I do see every year, is increasing Wolf.....obviously.
I also see G-Bear on a regular basis now....never saw them for 40 years up there, but now daily and not the same one.
(bring in a Fall LEH G-Bear....IMO)
Also, the logging, as much as it has helped (due to lack of snow and "New Slides" being created in area as nature once did,
which rarely occur now), has also created easy access to area for hunting...legally and illegally.(major deactivation is needed...IMO)
As for Cattle, I leave that to others, as the area I hunt is not impacted directly for the most part, although it may very well be
impacted in the Winter Months.
All I can say is, consider yourself "lucky" to some degree if you harvest an Elk for the next few years.
The few who are having success on a continuous basis, are generally "friends" with people who have large farms/cattle on
private land. (this info was passed on to me by a CO Officer, who always gives me his personal observations to who is
having success yearly)
Over the 40 years, I have seen a lot of development in the Columbia Trench area, which I don't think helps either for sure.
Also, I was told some herds of Elk stay in BC to drop calves etc, and than in the Winter, migrate back into Alberta.
So, what is happening in Alberta as well comes to question.
If the Winter Ranges are still there, than it is factors in BC that are causing the greatest decline....predators?? or ???

I will tell you exactly what happens when they winter on the eatern slopes of Alberta; They get shot, and well into February. They get the double wammy from both sides of the borders Ranchers, cause if the saw a group of 30 some where one day and a group of 30 around the corner another day there must be 60.

[Husky7mm]

Unfortunately I do not put a lot of faith in the elk population "guesstimates".

with decreasing budgets, the amount of helicopter time allowed to do intense sampling, thus better numbers is gone.

instead of flying for 10 hours and factoring that by ten fold, they get 2 hours and multiply that by 50...

Yes likely some major errors with the original estimates and corrections for none sighting.

[Fisher-Dude]

Unfortunately I do not put a lot of faith in the elk population "guesstimates".

with decreasing budgets, the amount of helicopter time allowed to do intense sampling, thus better numbers is gone.

instead of flying for 10 hours and factoring that by ten fold, they get 2 hours and multiply that by 50...

Next time you see MLA Bennett strolling down Baker Street, ask him why they refuse to fund proper wildlife management.

[j270wsm]

Seems like they're throwing spaghetti against the wall to see if something sticks, doesn't it? All these changes in a short amount of time gives no reliable data on which to draw any wildlife management conclusions, IMO.

There's some question about what the Elk Valley population actually is. Latest literature says 2500 on the low side and 5000 on the high side. Of course, there are 2200 elk on mine property, so I'd say overall it's probably closer to the 5000 figure, with half unhuntable.

I doubt there is 1500 on mine property. Iirc 2010 was the year with the highest number of elk on the mine property at fording river and greenhills, the elk were everywhere for a few years. Like I said before, since 2011 we have seen a dramatic decrease in elk numbers in the elk valley. I work at fording river and I'd guess we're probably seeing 1/3 of the number of elk on the drive to work. On any given day from sept 1- October 20 we used to see between 2-300 in an area we call environmental, now we're lucky to see 70 during the same period. we used to go up just to watch/listen to the Bulls. It was common to see 10 big Bulls all with herds of 10-20 cows plus smaller Bulls with cows. Haven't seen a bull bigger than 320 below environmental in 4yrs now.

[J_T]

I think there are LOTS of other factors if the population has declined as dramatically as is claimed. The math just isn't adding up to the "thousands and thousands" of elk disappearing in the article.
i dont think the math works because we've never really known how many elk there are. The lack of math, proves the point population estimates are way off. Lack of funding of course. Lack of process and committment. We've managed on trends. You take 1000 elk out of 30,000, low impact. You take 1000 elk out of 14000. Big difference.

[findlyflats]

I would like to see the number of elk (cow, calf & bulls) the natives hunted in the last 10 years, i know it is very very high in some areas.

[rocksteady]

Next time you see MLA Bennett strolling down Baker Street, ask him why they refuse to fund proper wildlife management.


Thats some one funny shit right there... Me talking to a minister/MLA

[358mag]

Next time you see MLA Bennett strolling down Baker Street, ask him why they refuse to fund proper wildlife management.

And If you see Great Chief Stewart Phillip walking down the street ..........:evil::evil::evil::evil::evil:

[Fisher-Dude]

Thats some one funny shit right there... Me talking to a minister/MLA

That's why wildlife is underfunded.

People refuse to take the time to engage their politicians and tell them what their demands are. If the politicos don't hear you bitching, they won't respond. Silence is acceptance of the status quo.

Easier to sit in the Lazy Boy and font a few words on HBC...but that won't help get wildlife funded...

[Ourea]

That's why wildlife is underfunded.

People refuse to take the time to engage their politicians and tell them what their demands are. If the politicos don't hear you bitching, they won't respond. Silence is acceptance of the status quo.

Easier to sit in the Lazy Boy and font a few words on HBC...but that won't help get wildlife funded...

Being engaged is great and tip of the hat for those that are.

Bottom line..... WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT AND PROJECTS NEED ONE THING... and that's $$$$$$$$!!!!!
When we, as a stake holder and user group, can show up with a check, a big check, things change.

The dynamics r completely different when u stand in front of Gov't with money in hand .......rather than pleading a cause and wanting someone else to pay for it.
We as hunters, r just one of thousands of groups and organizations asking for Gov't money for a noble cause

Create a funding platform, one that is sustainable, bolt on corporate underwriters, now you have something.

You now r in a position of control/power.
You r no longer yet another user group "wanting" Gov't to fix ur perceived problems/issues.

Need to lose the "get on the tit" mentality to fix things.

We r better served to show up with big tits of our own.
Big tits, really big ones :razz:

Money is what will sway Gov't
Shocker....GOABC figured this out yrs ago

[Husky7mm]

I would like to see the number of elk (cow, calf & bulls) the natives hunted in the last 10 years, i know it is very very high in some areas.

The natives around cranbrook and not a bad bunch. Hardly ever did you see them out hunting year round. Often during the winter there are herds of several hundred on their reserve land.

[findlyflats]

I think the same can be said about most tribes in the trench. Its the ones from out side the trench that go there and load up.
Had a native buddy here tell me about his elk hunt last year.
he got a cow draw for the spring from his tribe , he said he was disgusted in the fact they wanted him to take a pregnant cow .
He shot a bull and said, what can his tribal counsel do, sue him for only taking 1 elk not 3.

[GoatGuy]

In the EK (and WK) you have population declines, particularly in areas where there is little to no access. You have low recruitment across the board (even where there hasn't been a cow/calf draw for years [or ever]), a couple of migratory herds which are now gone, and what's left is principally non-migratory.

Predators, and habitat are driving that. The same thing is happening across a lot of North America - it isn't just the EK.

[HarryToolips]

I have never hunted in the EK, I am ignorant to the whole situation, but this is all very concerning...so what GG and Ourea are saying is we need $$$, lots of $$$, to help persuade the politicians to help us in our cause and to make better habitat...so can we get a fund going then?? Do we do this through the BCWF??? I'm guessing that part of the problem in the elk trench, correct me if I'm wrong, is winter competition on ranch/farm land with cattle?? - If so, can we put some of our new funding toward hay-bales etc that we can supplement the ranchers etc with, to help feed the elk through the winter?? I'm all to donating a bit of $$$ to the cause, I'm sure many of you would be, so where do we start??

[J_T]

I have never hunted in the EK, I am ignorant to the whole situation, but this is all very concerning...so what GG and Ourea are saying is we need $$$, lots of $$$, to help persuade the politicians to help us in our cause and to make better habitat...so can we get a fund going then?? Do we do this through the BCWF??? I'm guessing that part of the problem in the elk trench, correct me if I'm wrong, is winter competition on ranch/farm land with cattle?? - If so, can we put some of our new funding toward hay-bales etc that we can supplement the ranchers etc with, to help feed the elk through the winter?? I'm all to donating a bit of $$$ to the cause, I'm sure many of you would be, so where do we start??
Wouldn't want to supplement feed with hay bales. What we need first is a process to determine an accurate estimate of populations. A process to gather the information and estimate that everyone will agree to. Then we need to have a discussion about how many elk 'we' collectively want. Then we can talk about how we get there.

[ramcam]

J270 is bang on, the Elk in the Fording and the Elkvalley are in the tank, The wolves and Grizzlies are a real problem for sure but there is a lot of greed as well. When one family will shoot two bulls, or more plus throw in deer and of course I know families that will knock some moose down when they can. When I say one family will shoot 2 bulls I don't mean they will stop there, Dad, Mom and 2 or 3 kids will all have tags and be gunning to fill them. All legal but as humans we should know when enough is enough and at least do our part! Greed is as big a problem as the Wolves and Grizzlies.

[Fisher-Dude]

J270 is bang on, the Elk in the Fording and the Elkvalley are in the tank, The wolves and Grizzlies are a real problem for sure but there is a lot of greed as well. When one family will shoot two bulls, or more plus throw in deer and of course I know families that will knock some moose down when they can. When I say one family will shoot 2 bulls I don't mean they will stop there, Dad, Mom and 2 or 3 kids will all have tags and be gunning to fill them. All legal but as humans we should know when enough is enough and at least do our part! Greed is as big a problem as the Wolves and Grizzlies.

Care to explain how harvesting a couple of 6 point bulls, regardless of who shoots them, affects the overall elk population?

What you're complaining about is completely social in nature, and has absolutely nothing to do with the elk populations in the Elk Valley or anywhere else for that matter.

Unfortunately, we've spent way too much time and way too much money trying to cater to social issues, and no time and no money working on managing wildlife populations. That's why we have low populations.

[HarryToolips]

Wouldn't want to supplement feed with hay bales. What we need first is a process to determine an accurate estimate of populations. A process to gather the information and estimate that everyone will agree to. Then we need to have a discussion about how many elk 'we' collectively want. Then we can talk about how we get there.

OK, so do we start a funding project and first use that $$$ on aerial counts??? Plus I guess we'd have to hire a few biologists??? Any Government grants that we could apply for???

[GoatGuy]

OK, so do we start a funding project and first use that $$$ on aerial counts??? Plus I guess we'd have to hire a few biologists??? Any Government grants that we could apply for???
BC needs a properly funded wildlife management model.

One-off approach won't solve the issues they are experiencing. There is a lot more than meets the eye - ties into land use planning, First Nations, ecosystem management (habitat and predators), hwy mortalities, ag depredation and on and on and on.

Best thing is push for a provincial model. EK has had lots of 'elk management plans' and 'mule deer plans' lol - all about hunting regulations, unable to pull any of the levers that will change the populations, and ultimately has just resulted in less wildlife, particularly the kind that doesn't live near or in town.

[Spy]

OK, so do we start a funding project and first use that $$$ on aerial counts??? Plus I guess we'd have to hire a few biologists??? Any Government grants that we could apply for???

The wolf population is out of control, we can start by knocking them down to a manageable level. The Grizz and black bear pops are also high and the local bio should be reporting this to the powers that be, so they can issue more LEH tags, for Grizz. these are things we can do in the mean time, to help the dwindling pops!

[GoatGuy]

The wolf population is out of control, we can start by knocking them down to a manageable level. The Grizz and black bear pops are also high and the local bio should be reporting this to the powers that be, so they can issue more LEH tags, for Grizz. these are things we can do in the mean time, to help the dwindling pops!

South Rockies GBPMU shows a 40% decline in the last 10 years.........

[ramcam]

Fisher-Dude I do hear what you are saying and if it was only a couple of six points I don't think it would reflect on the population that much, but that would be if it was one family not the multitude of families that do it. Combined with all the other wildlife shot by said families, you would be surprised how fast the populations can be lowered,
I saw the cow/calf slaughters of the 80s in the Valley it is just one more thing we could control very easily by not being greedy. Just my opinion

[Walking Buffalo]

South Rockies GBPMU shows a 40% decline in the last 10 years.........


And SW Alberta has had a huge increase in Grizzly bear numbers, but we don't count them as Alberta bears.
According to bear census protocols, they are BC bears!


Come and get 'em!


There are some strange manipulations being made by some bios when discussing certain population estimates, hunting induced genetic selection....
A person often needs to spend more time vetting the bios than the data....

[Spy]

South Rockies GBPMU shows a 40% decline in the last 10 years.........
Decline in what GG wolves? Bears? excuse my ignorance what management unit GBM? Thanks

[Spy]

I know JT can talk more on the Grizz numbers in the drainage we hunt but according to the trail cam pics there seems to be no short supply. As for the wolves holy last year they were running the elk hard.

[Xenomorph]

I know JT can talk more on the Grizz numbers in the drainage we hunt but according to the trail cam pics there seems to be no short supply. As for the wolves holy last year they were running the elk hard.

The more I read about a dog problem, the more I want to do my part in it. Slowly but surely, I'll be out there more often come fall.

[GoatGuy]

Decline in what GG wolves? Bears? excuse my ignorance what management unit GBM? Thanks
grizzly bears

grizzly bear population management unit

[GoatGuy]

Here is a bit on grizzly bear management, and pop trends in flathead and elk valley area.

http://bcwf.net/files/2016%20AGM/2016%20AGM%20Presentations/Dr__Bruce_McLellan_FLNRO_-_Sustainable_Grizzly_Bear_Harvest.pdf


Flathead hasn't had cow/calf or mule deer doe tags since probably 1997? Still way less of both................

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Northern Idaho isn't far from the EK. Our problem is not unique
http://magicvalley.com/news/local/wolves-killed-in-northern-idaho-to-boost-elk-population/article_197655fc-d54b-5f4a-bf62-e66e4035fa75.html

[drakfero]

Fisher dude , it is thousands if you get 3966 elk in 5 years in one region
From 5000 cows you can have 20 000 elk in in couple years


I ve seen may be thousand cows in one valley coming back from summer pastures thats lot of grass wildlife can eat.


How many grizzlies we have in southern BC when they go in peoples homes??? Like last year in the news..
Only 3 elk i ve seen last year were 3 cows chased by grizzly so high , they were jumping on the rocks where nothing else grew.
When i spoke to locals they told me biologists wanna stop LEH for grizzly in that area. What sense does it make if you see more bears than elk?
And when you hike you see one elk tracks followed by 3 wolfs.

I dont know how it runs in BC but in Europe once the forest is renewed and is to thick they cut some % of trees so animals can live in it , here many times i have seen renewed forest where no ungulates can live at all.

Some are asking more $$$ for management.
Just count how much do we pay for LEH & permits and tags only if there is 170 000 hunters (LEH stats)
Thats every year only from people like us , i bet there would be budget to manage better surveys.

[J_T]

I know JT can talk more on the Grizz numbers in the drainage we hunt but according to the trail cam pics there seems to be no short supply. As for the wolves holy last year they were running the elk hard.
Yup. No elk in the Bull River.

[mpotzold]

July 13, 2016-Bennett agrees elk numbers down in region. Government should find the courage to stand up to those uninformed urban interests and reduce wolf and bear populations.
http://www.e-know.ca/regions/east-kootenay/mla-agrees-elk-numbers-region/

Read that Bill Bennett is quitting politics & will not run again in 2017.

May 28, 2016
“The issue is not wolves, it’s the combination of wolves, grizzly bears, black bears and cougars … the prey species can’t handle the combined impact of those four animals,”
……. all preying heavily on elk calves, and it is reasonable to assume young caribou, moose and deer are also being impacted.
“There are three different studies on elk now that show between the four predators, that 60 to 70 per cent of the elk calves are dying before they even get through their first winter,”
A US study found that 70 per cent of the elk were killed by cougars.

The study found cougars were killing about 50 ungulates (primarily elk, but also some deer) a year. One cat killed 73.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/western-canadian-wolf-culls-aimed-at-saving-big-game-draw-international-condemnation/article30194351/

FN doing their part
http://shuswapnation.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Elk-hunt-Draft.pdf

Finally
NO COW/CALF elk hunting until the numbers rebound.

[Fisher-Dude]

The more I read about a dog problem, the more I want to do my part in it. Slowly but surely, I'll be out there more often come fall.

We simply can't hunt wolves efficiently enough to affect the population.

Wolves need to experience a harvest rate of ~75% - 80% for about 5 years in a row to lower the population.

We're just not able to do that even with NCS and NBL.

Choppers with concentrated removal methods are the only effective way to accomplish a reduction that will make a difference for ungulate herds.

[.300WSMImpact!]

some good stuff here guys, I am interested to here more, keep up the good work get the information out to everyone we can

[zippermouth]

July 13, 2016-Bennett agrees elk numbers down in region. Government should find the courage to stand up to those uninformed urban interests and reduce wolf and bear populations.
http://www.e-know.ca/regions/east-kootenay/mla-agrees-elk-numbers-region/

Read that Bill Bennett is quitting politics & will not run again in 2017.

May 28, 2016
“The issue is not wolves, it’s the combination of wolves, grizzly bears, black bears and cougars … the prey species can’t handle the combined impact of those four animals,”
……. all preying heavily on elk calves, and it is reasonable to assume young caribou, moose and deer are also being impacted.
“There are three different studies on elk now that show between the four predators, that 60 to 70 per cent of the elk calves are dying before they even get through their first winter,”
A US study found that 70 per cent of the elk were killed by cougars.

The study found cougars were killing about 50 ungulates (primarily elk, but also some deer) a year. One cat killed 73.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/western-canadian-wolf-culls-aimed-at-saving-big-game-draw-international-condemnation/article30194351/

FN doing their part
http://shuswapnation.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Elk-hunt-Draft.pdf

Finally
NO COW/CALF elk hunting until the numbers rebound.
first nations doing their part would instead say,
"no cow/calf harvest on the winter range..."

[J_T]

Even with wolves its about balance. Yet to start with we dont know how many there are in a given area and we dont know what balance is. We're currently managing the wolf population based on harvest numbers. How is that effective? We can manage wolves through trapping and changes to where and how we go about it. We have the results. If targeted properly.

[hunter1947]

I won't get into any arguments of why the elk population has dropped here is my opinion on why the numbers have dropped over the past 20 years ,,#1 mismanagement on elk #2 predator problems # 3 habitat winter time feeding,,,the bears take lots of calfs just after they have been dropped I saw many fawns and elk calves that have been taken from predators just a short time after they were born in the past years,,just to sum all up take a look on how elk season is managed in parts of the USA management speaks for itself down south of our border..


PS in order to have the prey rebound the first thing management has to do is control the predator problem its unreal on the amount of predators that are in our regions throughout BC
Wolves are the number one problem..

[Husky7mm]

Even with wolves its about balance. Yet to start with we dont know how many there are in a given area and we dont know what balance is. We're currently managing the wolf population based on harvest numbers. How is that effective? We can manage wolves through trapping and changes to where and how we go about it. We have the results. If targeted properly.

That is how they manage many species. ie Harvest rates for mule deer in the EK went up, "opportunities " were increased.... Must have been more mule deer.....??

[GoatGuy]

Even with wolves its about balance. Yet to start with we dont know how many there are in a given area and we dont know what balance is. We're currently managing the wolf population based on harvest numbers. How is that effective? We can manage wolves through trapping and changes to where and how we go about it. We have the results. If targeted properly.
Have any litt. on effectiveness of trapping on wolf pops for ungulates? Or how to effectively census wolves on a shoestring budget?

[J_T]

That is how they manage many species. ie Harvest rates for mule deer in the EK went up, "opportunities " were increased.... Must have been more mule deer.....?? Yes, unfortunately because they we've never had a true handle on populations and no funding or method to determine actual / close population numbers, we've accepted a 'management by trends' approach. Harvest numbers go down, "so populations must be lower."


Have any litt. on effectiveness of trapping on wolf pops for ungulates? Or how to effectively census wolves on a shoestring budget? Worked quite a bit with local trappers. Some area specific (regulations and time of year) limits prevent effective trapping, access issues also present barriers to accessing logical locations. Primarily it comes down to off season incentives (trapping outside normal trapping months). I'm currently working on raising money to partner in a harvest incentive program for trappers. Need to work with Gov to have some areas opened up and I'd like to see a trapper mentoring program for new trappers brought in as an output. Regarding success stats. In one targeted area we successfully trapped 9 of 12 wolves, overall in the EK, trappers reported 40 plus wolves trapped. While hunters reported 5. Inconsequential. With the 9 of 12, the difficulty with the last three was that they moved in to an access restricted area.

[bearvalley]

Have any litt. on effectiveness of trapping on wolf pops for ungulates? Or how to effectively census wolves on a shoestring budget?
With the over abundance of wolves we have in BC right now trapping will not correct the imbalance. A classic example of the ineffectiveness of trapping is the livestock protection program. If too small of a number of offending wolves in a pack are removed, the problem grows, creating more wolves that target only livestock.
If the same form of trapping and partial pack removal program is done in an effort to recover wildlife, be it moose, caribou or elk....we could have nothing more than a "wolf enhancement" program.
The science has been done on wildlife/predator dynamics and it's time to implement the correction.
Small, regional culls are only short term fixes...the void created will soon be repopulated with new wolves.
Wolf studies on wolves eating caribou don't make more caribou.
Reducing the biomass that feeds wolves does nothing for a fix, wolves just move in on what's left harder or find new turf.
BC needs a reduction program.
Rebuilding the habitat is going to take years so the initial step in stabilizing wildlife is predator management.

[J_T]

I know this is a topic on elk, but something else to consider. With the increase in wolves, it is changing how hunters are hunting. Case in point is with respect to cougars and bears the houndsman are less apt to let their dogs go because the dogs are being chased down by wolves. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If hunters are not pursuing cougars and bears as aggressively, then the harvest might be expected to drop off, populations of cougars and bears increase and the impact on ungulates increases.

[Rob Chipman]

"houndsman are less apt to let their dogs go because the dogs are being chased down by wolves"

Now that is interesting. Makes sense but it's not the kind of thing you think of a lot. Had a bit of a scare last November while moose hunting. Wolves around camp, young dog wanting to wander off, I was sure I saw a wolf in the dark taking a gander at my dog (I was probably seeing things, but they were around the camp).

Anyway, my real comment about making more elk is that I don't know much about it at all, but I watched a show about the RMEF transplanting elk to Kentucky. Phenomenal success on reclaimed mine property. Lots of habitat, not a lot of agricultural interests complaining about elk, and....not a lot of big game predators in Kentucky.

I later heard a couple of the founders of the RMEF talking about the Kentucky project and their experience in western states. Surprise, surprise. Calf recruitment numbers in Kentucky were fantastic, while in western states they were way smaller.

I don't know how solid that info is or if those guys can be trusted (maybe they ahve some agenda I don't know about) but it makes sense to me.

[BgBlkDg]

With the over abundance of wolves we have in BC right now trapping will not correct the imbalance. A classic example of the ineffectiveness of trapping is the livestock protection program. If too small of a number of offending wolves in a pack are removed, the problem grows, creating more wolves that target only livestock.
If the same form of trapping and partial pack removal program is done in an effort to recover wildlife, be it moose, caribou or elk....we could have nothing more than a "wolf enhancement" program.
The science has been done on wildlife/predator dynamics and it's time to implement the correction.
Small, regional culls are only short term fixes...the void created will soon be repopulated with new wolves.
Wolf studies on wolves eating caribou don't make more caribou.
Reducing the biomass that feeds wolves does nothing for a fix, wolves just move in on what's left harder or find new turf.
BC needs a reduction program.
Rebuilding the habitat is going to take years so the initial step in stabilizing wildlife is predator management.

THAT, in the proverbial nutshell, IS the first priority and nothing else will do much good until/unless this IS implemented, province-wide and long term.

But, university "egpsurts" know FAR better, they learn it all in the "faculty lounge" and seldom venture into the bush, except to have videos made to con urbanites into donations...........

[bearvalley]

I know this is a topic on elk, but something else to consider. With the increase in wolves, it is changing how hunters are hunting. Case in point is with respect to cougars and bears the houndsman are less apt to let their dogs go because the dogs are being chased down by wolves. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If hunters are not pursuing cougars and bears as aggressively, then the harvest might be expected to drop off, populations of cougars and bears increase and the impact on ungulates increases.

Every time you turn a pack of hounds loose you risk the chance of getting a dog or two killed by a cougar, a bear or a wolf.
I won't disagree that some guys are more cautious turning their dogs loose on a cat or bear in areas with a lot of wolves but I think that is a minor issue when compared to the percentage of the hunting fraternity that believe in "I won't shoot what I don't eat" therefor not harvesting a predator even if they have the chance.
Even if the population of cougars and bears remains stable at the current number the impact on ungulates increases as the ungulate population shrinks.
Thats what we are seeing in a large part of the province right now.
As for wolves they cannot be hunted to a manageable level with bullets, even with NCS and NBL.

[Bugle M In]

I guess we all know the only way to drop the Wolf #'s is by poisoning, like years ago.
As for Kentucky, and that successful "Transplant", I ask myself...."do they even have any Predators there??"
We talk about Elk here, but I have also seen an Incredible Drop Off in Whitetails where I hunt as well.
I do know that these Elk/Whitetails have changed there patterns to "avoid" predators.....that's for sure, and is why we as
hunters are seeing less of them.
Unfortunately, I think their will be a "Sharp Decline" in these species in many areas of the E.K. in a very short time.
And nothing will get done until that happens, and than "We", as hunters will not have the same oppurtunities to hunt them,
due to more restrictions and closures.'
Than, one day the Predators will die off (as we all know is the Cycle), and than the Elk will rebuild, but to even lesser levels,
as we continually encroach on "Winter ranges" and their Destruction.
I have very little faith in the Biologists to rectify the problem, as they are bound to all the Political pressures and to some
degree bad decision making, and when they do get it right, it is always "Way too Late"!
The Bio's need to get ahead of the game, they need to go past the "Public Pressure of City Folks" and do what is really needed,
regardless of "public outcries" of ...."
"Don't kill the wolves"
"Grizzlies are the Verge of Extinction" ...BS
The Government needs to step up to the plate, and make "Viable Habitat"
The Government needs to address the fact that there are Serious Problems.

Saying that, and having faith in those 2 Groups, who make the "Big Decisions"........I have "0" faith in that happening.
Not any time soon..
So, the Decline will continue.
All I can do is take a wolf (if the opportunity arises), and buy a Black bear tag each season, but "unfortunately", not a G-Bear tag.
Maybe they should lower the price of a tag on Cougar and Black Bear, to give some hunters more incentive to purchase before they
head out.
That's about as much as I can do, but it's the people running the show that need to fix the "Habitat" Situation.
Good Luck!
BC is up for sale, not "restoration".

[LBM]

I know this is a topic on elk, but something else to consider. With the increase in wolves, it is changing how hunters are hunting. Case in point is with respect to cougars and bears the houndsman are less apt to let their dogs go because the dogs are being chased down by wolves. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If hunters are not pursuing cougars and bears as aggressively, then the harvest might be expected to drop off, populations of cougars and bears increase and the impact on ungulates increases.

You guys really don't have a clue, there is more guys chasing cats and bears then ever. I no of spot and stalk hunters that have quit hunting areas because of the amount of hound guys chasing bears. You guys keep talking about increased numbers of predators yet still say they don't accurately no the number of elk so how the heck do they no the number of predators.
Biggest cause of lose of wildlife is human related, way more then what predators, but no one wants to blame the humans much easier to find a scape goat then go after the real problems.

[Fisher-Dude]

It's time houndsmen kill legal cats when they run them.

If you don't want the cost of processing a kill, take a newbie out who does. Loads of young guys wanting to give cat hunting a try, but few houndsmen seem willing to take them along and let them shoot a legal cat.

Time to break up the secret fraternity and realize that if you want to keep hunting cats, you better get enough guys interested in it so you have a voice with whichever politicians end up calling the shots in this province.

[LBM]

It's time houndsmen kill legal cats when they run them.

If you don't want the cost of processing a kill, take a newbie out who does. Loads of young guys wanting to give cat hunting a try, but few houndsmen seem willing to take them along and let them shoot a legal cat.

Time to break up the secret fraternity and realize that if you want to keep hunting cats, you better get enough guys interested in it so you have a voice with whichever politicians end up calling the shots in this province.

Again you have no clue what goes on out there.

[Fisher-Dude]

Again you have no clue what goes on out there.

I wish that were true.

I'd have one less headache to deal with.

[BgBlkDg]

You guys really don't have a clue, there is more guys chasing cats and bears then ever. I no of spot and stalk hunters that have quit hunting areas because of the amount of hound guys chasing bears. You guys keep talking about increased numbers of predators yet still say they don't accurately no the number of elk so how the heck do they no the number of predators.
Biggest cause of lose of wildlife is human related, way more then what predators, but no one wants to blame the humans much easier to find a scape goat then go after the real problems.

OK, pehaps you would be kind enough to describe your experience, years of bush time, biological education/studies and just how you have determined that so many of us are apparently clueless?

I imagine that you have spent 40+ years in the Kootenays and other areas of BC and have hunted for this time as well as probably spending a few months every year actually living in the bush engaged in various wildlife, forestry and fisheries studies/work?

[bearvalley]

You guys really don't have a clue, there is more guys chasing cats and bears then ever. I no of spot and stalk hunters that have quit hunting areas because of the amount of hound guys chasing bears. You guys keep talking about increased numbers of predators yet still say they don't accurately no the number of elk so how the heck do they no the number of predators.
Biggest cause of lose of wildlife is human related, way more then what predators, but no one wants to blame the humans much easier to find a scape goat then go after the real problems.

LBM, the "more guys chasing cats and bears than ever" is area specific. Some areas "may" have more hound hunters, some the same as before and some areas less. The common denominator is declining wildlife populations, province wide.
This decline is also occurring in areas where human pressure has not greatly increased.
The notable change in these areas has been the increase in predators so I doubt that what's happening to the elk in the EK is much different.
Like I said before recovering habitat where needed is going to take a lot of time.
In the meantime the only way to put the brakes on the wildlife decline is with predator management and if nessasary reduction.
The alternative is a complete crash of ungulates, followed by a crash of predator species.

[J_T]

Hey LBM. I know this is the internet but I would ask you to please refrain from suggesting I don't have a clue. You may not agree and thats fine. Express your opinion without the personal accusation. I am working with trappers. Talking to houndsmen. Know of two guys who just lost dogs, by wolves while on bears. The data i cite comes from Gov. Just saying, a little more respect is appreciated. And I believe due.

[hunter1947]

I moved to the EK 6 years ago this June I am out and about 6 months every year in the mountains after moving to the EK for the love of nature I put out trail cams,do scouting,shed hunting and hunting I see deer,elk remains prey tracks I hear what's out there for predators meaning wolves the # one chain eater of the predators

It's a vishus circle on how many predators take prey and yes the humans do take a number of prey but not even close to what all predators take over a year to survive,,I have seen a few cougars on foot over the past few years while out in the mountains doing my thing..

I never saw many many cats and there tracks in the past years as of now I saw 4 cougars this spring while out antler shed hunting,,,its a big bad circle on the whole picture on why the numbers of prey have dropped in numbers maybe our management should look at how different parts of the stats manage their hunting regulations ???I am no biologist I can only speculate on what my thoughts are..

(PS) everyone has there opinion and my post is my opinion on what my thoughts are I respect all others opinion on what there thoughts are..

[Ourea]

Areas that I hunt........

Went years without ever getting wolves on cam in some of my spots.
Now, they r god damn wolf factories

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/IMAG0390.jpg (http://s1219.photobucket.com/user/browndog100/media/IMAG0390.jpg.html)

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/IMAGwolf2.jpg (http://s1219.photobucket.com/user/browndog100/media/IMAGwolf2.jpg.html)

Wolves don't sit around eating granola bars holding hands and singing Kumbaya around the campfire.
They kill and eat 365 days a yr.
As their numbers go up.....the number of their prey goes down.

I am sure there r "spots" where guys r going to town on preds as LBM purports.
Reality is there is a surgence of preds overall.....primarily wolves.

And wolves love elk

[Ourea]

When cats are dumping triplets that's a concern.
And this spot is in an outfitters area who specializes in cat hunting.
That's a lot of mouths to feed.


http://vid1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/4cats_zps72e9925b.mp4

[Xenomorph]

When cats are dumping triplets that's a concern.
And this spot is in an outfitters area who specializes in cat hunting.
That's a lot of mouths to feed.


http://vid1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/4cats_zps72e9925b.mp4

That's a concern for anyone hunting that area. Fighting off one cat, OK. Fighting off four, mah, I'm not that strong.

[Ourea]

That's a concern for anyone hunting that area. Fighting off one cat, OK. Fighting off four, mah, I'm not that strong.

If anyone is man enough ...chances r ur 280lb ass would fare ok.
After all, who is afraid of a little pussy.........




cats

[rocksteady]

Talked to a trapper buddy of mine, he is convinced that all of these guys trying to be predator Heroes (picking up a road kill and making a bait station, maybe killing one or 2 wolves) is educating them to avoid bait...

he he no longer uses bait, he uses scat from other wolves that he collects on his annual Northern moose trip. Wolves are very territorial...

plus us if you shoot the Alpha male or female, the pack splits, each having its own alpha pair, therefore doubling the number of up and coming pups...

just st his take on it, not sure how much credibility as he likes to BS pretty heavy

[rocksteady]

Plus I have seen lots of hounds men in the EK who run cats and bears only to take pics... That does not reduce their numbers

[Husky7mm]

When cats are dumping triplets that's a concern.
And this spot is in an outfitters area who specializes in cat hunting.
That's a lot of mouths to feed.


http://vid1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/4cats_zps72e9925b.mp4
I bet 3 is pretty common. iirc a cougar killed a deer in the town of cranbrook. Since it was in a residential area they called up a houndsman. They ended up with 5 sub adult males and their mother.....
Imo there should be no tag required for a cat, just like a wolf. If you see one, Bang! It wouldnt happen often but it does happen. I have seen 7 with out the help of dogs , all in the last 5 yrs.

[bearvalley]

Talked to a trapper buddy of mine, he is convinced that all of these guys trying to be predator Heroes (picking up a road kill and making a bait station, maybe killing one or 2 wolves) is educating them to avoid bait...

he he no longer uses bait, he uses scat from other wolves that he collects on his annual Northern moose trip. Wolves are very territorial...

plus us if you shoot the Alpha male or female, the pack splits, each having its own alpha pair, therefore doubling the number of up and coming pups...

just st his take on it, not sure how much credibility as he likes to BS pretty heavy

Your trapper freind is not BS'ing this time.

[J_T]

Talked to a trapper buddy of mine, he is convinced that all of these guys trying to be predator Heroes (picking up a road kill and making a bait station, maybe killing one or 2 wolves) is educating them to avoid bait...

he he no longer uses bait, he uses scat from other wolves that he collects on his annual Northern moose trip. Wolves are very territorial...

plus us if you shoot the Alpha male or female, the pack splits, each having its own alpha pair, therefore doubling the number of up and coming pups...

just st his take on it, not sure how much credibility as he likes to BS pretty heavy Yes, I have learned first hand when you take out the alpha the pack splits and the females go in to heat. Agree that the trappers do find the wolves quickly learn about bait. The best bait sites, seem to prove to be a pile of wolf shit sitting on a rock.

[Elkaholic]

Plus I have seen lots of hounds men in the EK who run cats and bears only to take pics... That does not reduce their numbers

It seems a little backwards to shoot everything a person trees, eventually you will run out of game. I do understand there does need to be some shot, but there has to be a balance in my mind. This past year I treed 12 cats, 2 were of what I would call shooter category. The rest were lucky to be over 100lbs. The two I passed that were shooters got shot anyways. With cats, if I don't shoot it, the next guy sure as hell will. No big cat hides for long around here.

[Fisher-Dude]

It seems a little backwards to shoot everything a person trees, eventually you will run out of game. I do understand there does need to be some shot, but there has to be a balance in my mind. This past year I treed 12 cats, 2 were of what I would call shooter category. The rest were lucky to be over 100lbs. The two I passed that were shooters got shot anyways. With cats, if I don't shoot it, the next guy sure as hell will. No big cat hides for long around here.

I bet if you took a newbie cat hunter with you, he'd be tickled pink to shoot a 3 year old tom.

Cats don't have to be 185 lbs to meet some mythical standard. We can't "self-manage" cats for "big cat hides" and expect that either cats or their prey will fare sufficiently well to ensure robust numbers of each. If we're trying to stockpile cats until they are "big enough," we're going to end up with little prey and even fewer cats, let alone big ones.

[Whonnock Boy]

What do small cats eat?

[Fisher-Dude]

What do small cats eat?

Small Pokemons.

[Xenomorph]

Small Pokemons.


165 grains GMX?

[hunter1947]

I agree on the wolf scats no better leuer to get than that of wolf scats for trapping,,my minter told me this years ago when we were trapping wolves on northern Vancouver island
he has trapped all his life for all predators all over BC he is now in his 80ties

[hunter1947]

The wolves and other predators are multiplying in big numbers in lots of regions in BC,,,,,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be_BOhOnuUU,,,,,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWCA_NLrDDA

.................................................. .................................................. ...........................https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxwTKGCV-18

[steveo]

The wolves and other predators are multiplying in big numbers in lots of regions in BC,,,,,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be_BOhOnuUU,,,,,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWCA_NLrDDA

.................................................. .................................................. ...........................https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxwTKGCV-18So why didn't you shoot the wolf again?

[HarryToolips]

So are we breaking a bunch of rules if we take all this into our own hands, as we know help from the provincial government probably won't happen, and all start poisoning wolves???? Are there other critters that will be attracted to the poison??? WHat other impacts would we be making by doing this??? Would domestic dogs that hunters and others are taking into the bush be attracted to this poison?? Mind my ignorance, I'd love to poison a few wolves and keep their numbers down in my area....

[Elkaholic]

I bet if you took a newbie cat hunter with you, he'd be tickled pink to shoot a 3 year old tom.

Cats don't have to be 185 lbs to meet some mythical standard. We can't "self-manage" cats for "big cat hides" and expect that either cats or their prey will fare sufficiently well to ensure robust numbers of each. If we're trying to stockpile cats until they are "big enough," we're going to end up with little prey and even fewer cats, let alone big ones.

I dont disagree with you, its a personal preference to not shoot small cats. If I take people out I have no issues with them shooting a cat that they feel is the one to them.

[Bugle M In]

I forgot to mention the "Cats" in my post, but I have to say " I've seen lots in the area I hunt" over the past 5 years now.
Never saw them....ever...in all the years before, nor my father or uncles, back in the day.
So, ya, they are on the increase....and yes, they are now "Coming in to Cow Calls", so Elk is definitely on their menu as well.
Lots of issues to be taken if the Elk Population is ever going to be recovered to more "High Historic Levels"
I think with each "Up Cycle", that happens Naturally in the future, the High Level will become "Smaller and Smaller" for Elk.
At least in the E.K., but elk do seem to like to expand their territories these days, with a little help from Transplants.
Another thing that would help Elk #'s in the E.K. is to continue on moving Elk to other parts of the Province, to spread them out,
so as to spread out hunter numbers thru out the Province more, which would help reduce "hunting pressure" in the E.K.
I always thought the Cache Creek area etc would be a great place to hunt Elk.
I know they are around in some areas, but it sure would be nice to establish "larger herds" in areas like that.
Just a thought on another way to help out Elk in the E.K.

[drakfero]

I forgot to mention the "Cats" in my post, but I have to say " I've seen lots in the area I hunt" over the past 5 years now.
Never saw them....ever...in all the years before, nor my father or uncles, back in the day.
So, ya, they are on the increase....and yes, they are now "Coming in to Cow Calls", so Elk is definitely on their menu as well.
Lots of issues to be taken if the Elk Population is ever going to be recovered to more "High Historic Levels"
I think with each "Up Cycle", that happens Naturally in the future, the High Level will become "Smaller and Smaller" for Elk.
At least in the E.K., but elk do seem to like to expand their territories these days, with a little help from Transplants.
Another thing that would help Elk #'s in the E.K. is to continue on moving Elk to other parts of the Province, to spread them out,
so as to spread out hunter numbers thru out the Province more, which would help reduce "hunting pressure" in the E.K.
I always thought the Cache Creek area etc would be a great place to hunt Elk.
I know they are around in some areas, but it sure would be nice to establish "larger herds" in areas like that.
Just a thought on another way to help out Elk in the E.K.



I agree with you , why to shoot cows when we can spread them in one (our) generation to the places they used to be. Same with bison and so on..

[horshur]

the average age of cougar killed is 1.5-2.5 years....numbers are available to public. There are few truly old Toms. This is documented as an issue(by science). If you want to effect the cougar population you have to kill females and kits. The current regs as they stand manage for max cougar populations.

[Fisher-Dude]

the average age of cougar killed is 1.5-2.5 years....numbers are available to public. There are few truly old Toms. This is documented as an issue(by science). If you want to effect the cougar population you have to kill females and kits. The current regs as they stand manage for max cougar populations.

Region 8 male cougar harvest, 2004 - 2015, average age is between 4 and 5 years. (Average works out to 4.5).

I doubt there is enough variation in harvest elsewhere to skew it to your numbers.

I can't format this right, but the last number on the right is the average age for the past 12 years.


Region 8 Cougar Sex and Age Data
Year MU M1 M2 M3 M4 M5 M6 M7 M8 M9 M10 FU F1 F2 F3 F4 F5 F6 F7 F8 F9 F10 SU Annual total
males females
not aged 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 not aged 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

2004 17 2 9 9 4 3 2 2 0 1 0 4 4 5 3 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 69 3.53125
2005 6 1 4 3 7 5 3 1 0 0 0 3 1 3 2 0 1 1 3 0 1 2 47 4.000000
2006 1 1 6 8 8 4 4 2 1 1 0 2 0 3 2 0 1 1 0 0 0 2 1 48 4.114285714
2007 12 1 1 6 7 7 4 2 3 0 1 2 0 0 3 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 50 4.875
2008 2 0 3 11 14 13 4 3 0 0 0 3 4 1 2 7 2 0 0 1 0 1 71 4.270833333
2009 0 0 2 11 12 10 6 3 4 0 1 2 0 2 0 4 2 3 0 0 0 0 62 4.775510204
2010 0 0 0 7 10 11 9 2 3 0 0 2 0 2 0 4 2 1 0 0 0 0 53 4.952380952
2011 4 0 2 6 5 8 5 3 3 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 2 0 2 2 1 0 46 4.90625
2012 2 0 0 7 7 6 5 6 1 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 3 0 4 3 1 2 51 4.96875
2013 0 4 8 9 11 4 2 5 2 0 0 0 1 0 2 1 1 2 0 0 3 55 4.866666667
2014 1 4 5 4 8 6 3 3 0 0 2 0 1 3 4 0 0 0 0 0 1 45 4.735294118
2015 4 2 7 9 8 10 4 2 1 0 0 1 1 4 1 1 0 1 1 9 1 0 3.976744186

[horshur]

Region 8 male cougar harvest, 2004 - 2015, average age is between 4 and 5 years. (Average works out to 4.5).

I doubt there is enough variation in harvest elsewhere to skew it to your numbers.

I can't format this right, but the last number on the right is the average age for the past 12 years.


Region 8 Cougar Sex and Age Data
Year MU M1 M2 M3 M4 M5 M6 M7 M8 M9 M10 FU F1 F2 F3 F4 F5 F6 F7 F8 F9 F10 SU Annual total
males females
not aged 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 not aged 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

2004 17 2 9 9 4 3 2 2 0 1 0 4 4 5 3 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 69 3.53125
2005 6 1 4 3 7 5 3 1 0 0 0 3 1 3 2 0 1 1 3 0 1 2 47 4.000000
2006 1 1 6 8 8 4 4 2 1 1 0 2 0 3 2 0 1 1 0 0 0 2 1 48 4.114285714
2007 12 1 1 6 7 7 4 2 3 0 1 2 0 0 3 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 50 4.875
2008 2 0 3 11 14 13 4 3 0 0 0 3 4 1 2 7 2 0 0 1 0 1 71 4.270833333
2009 0 0 2 11 12 10 6 3 4 0 1 2 0 2 0 4 2 3 0 0 0 0 62 4.775510204
2010 0 0 0 7 10 11 9 2 3 0 0 2 0 2 0 4 2 1 0 0 0 0 53 4.952380952
2011 4 0 2 6 5 8 5 3 3 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 2 0 2 2 1 0 46 4.90625
2012 2 0 0 7 7 6 5 6 1 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 3 0 4 3 1 2 51 4.96875
2013 0 4 8 9 11 4 2 5 2 0 0 0 1 0 2 1 1 2 0 0 3 55 4.866666667
2014 1 4 5 4 8 6 3 3 0 0 2 0 1 3 4 0 0 0 0 0 1 45 4.735294118
2015 4 2 7 9 8 10 4 2 1 0 0 1 1 4 1 1 0 1 1 9 1 0 3.976744186

The mode is the number that occurs most frequently..the most frequent cat killed in bc is 1.5 to 2.5 years old...exactly what you are suggesting people kill.

[LBM]

Hey LBM. I know this is the internet but I would ask you to please refrain from suggesting I don't have a clue. You may not agree and thats fine. Express your opinion without the personal accusation. I am working with trappers. Talking to houndsmen. Know of two guys who just lost dogs, by wolves while on bears. The data i cite comes from Gov. Just saying, a little more respect is appreciated. And I believe due.
JT Nothing to do with the internet, I would say the same if we were sitting around talking, would say the same to the guys that spend a few weeks a year in the kootenays and see a few cats and say this means there population is on the increase. Are some guys being more careful before letting dogs go because of wolves, Yes.
I know of dogs lost to wolves, bears, cats, falling to there death, drowning, hit by cars, dehydration and quite a few caught in traps. But again there is more guys then ever out there running. In some MUs cats are being over harvested, that also comes from some of the Bios but is any thing done , No.
A few good things coming out here about the trapping of wolves, the baiting/ bait stations should be banned by most for one many wolves are being educated and habitutated, and to many non-target animals being caught. There is a few different rancher/farmers here that never had cattle wolf conflicts before until they started allowing people to hunt/trap them in there area using dead live stock as bait and setting up bait stations where they turn all there cattle loose in the spring.

If there is a wolf problem a few certain people should be sent in to trap them , with the best methods to trap just wolves not methods used to catch what ever comes by.

I will say again humans are the biggest cause for any decline in animal populations, directly or indirectly. Humans kill all year round as well, regulations mean nothing to lots.
What is needed maybe is a good conservation group in B.C.

[BgBlkDg]

You do not tell us of YOUR actual experience in the Kootenays or your qualifications as a wildlife bio. or perhaps a working rancher?

I just find it a bit disconcerting for anyone to make comments about others as you have done here without giving their actual personal background in the subject(s) under discussion.

As to "conservation group", well, why not start one which meets your standards?

[LBM]

You do not tell us of YOUR actual experience in the Kootenays or your qualifications as a wildlife bio. or perhaps a working rancher?

I just find it a bit disconcerting for anyone to make comments about others as you have done here without giving their actual personal background in the subject(s) under discussion.

As to "conservation group", well, why not start one which meets your standards?

The only one that I have ever really seen give a personal background is you and it seems to be in about every 5th or so post of yours and not to be rude but t gets a bit old.
The big difference between me and you is I live in the kootenays and am out in it every day and actually see what goes on. True I don't no what goes on in all of the kootenays though.
For a background some may say I come from one of the pioneer families.

[Fisher-Dude]

But again there is more guys then ever out there running. In some MUs cats are being over harvested, that also comes from some of the Bios but is any thing done , No.



Average kill last 30 years = 61 cats per year

Average kill last 10 years = 55 cats per year

Harvest is less than the 30 year average now. That does not support the over harvest scenario you are trying to paint.

Average hunters in the 1990s = 209

Average hunters in the 2000s = 199

Average number of hunters has dropped in the 2000s compared to the 1990s. That does not support the more hunters than ever scenario you are trying to paint.

[Bugle M In]

Not wanting to get into a circle of debate and criticism here, but I do want to say this.
Yes, I acknowledge that I myself, do not spend months up in the E.K. each year hunting, nor do I live there year round.
I do know, that we all hunt the E.K in particular areas, and I think there probably "no one" who hunts every single MU in
the Koots each year.
Each Area is going to have it's own set of problems, and also some similar problems.
I'm not a biologist, nor do I sit and count Elk each year etc.
I am knowledgeable enough to know, that just because I don't see Elk 1 season, doesn't mean they are going extinct.
I hunt 1 specific watershed each season....passionately!
I get to see the changes in it each year.
I have seen logging change Big Game habits.
I have seen the lack of new scree slopes being created by the lack of "low snow levels" for many years now.
I still see quads and vehicles still going into road closure areas illegally and yearly.
I see more predators than ever before...year after year and increasing.
I see less and less White Tails and Elk each year for the past 5 years or so now.
(Although, in the area I hunt, Moose are increasing...IMO)
I have seen the "Large Windstorm" from a few years ago, which dropped trees "Everywhere", and literally change the
way "Elk Move", away from their traditional trails, as they are simply impassable.
On my Drives from Vancouver to the E.K., over 40 years, each season, I have seen how "Development" has changed the
Columbia Valley.
On top of that, there are more and more other "User Groups" out in the Woods, form mountain bikers to Helicopter Viewing,
that hang out right of mountain peaks so people can snap pics of the country side and wildlife.

I can't say what the real situation for elk is in the E.K., but what I see from times in the past, it sure looks like there is a problem.
When I talk to "Licencsed Foresters" who work in the area, and some who also hunt elk, (so they are very observant in seeing
elk sign etc), they are also surprised at "How Little Elk Sign is around"

I do believe this is a multi faceted cause and effect problem that is directly impacting the Elk #'s we have today.
I think in a Forum, especially this one, all people should be allowed their opinions, as we all have different experiences, mostly
because we hunt/live in different areas, but they all have "legit" points of view.

From the posts I have read, there are lots of reasons, and all plausible, to why elk numbers are dropping.
At least we all agree there is something going on and elk are "declining" in numbers.

One thing, generally we only hear from the people who are having "limited" or "very little success" elk hunting these days.
I suspect the hunters who are having success do not always wish to share what has changed in Elk patterns for them to be
successful year after year.
I suspect many successful folks are the ones hunting private/ranch land as I stated before in a post, but maybe some have figured
out where Elk have changed their patterns.
Hope the "Ministry" can figure out a few solutions that will benefit the Elk ....soon.
Otherwise, it's going to get a lot harder to find elk for then next "x" amount of years, before they bounce back.
For most of us, we can either pass up on elk hunting or more likely, try to do a better job of removing some "Preds" while we are out there.
Cheers

[J_T]

^^ You make a lot of good points. I would not say, the best or most successful hunting comes off private land though. The best success comes from anticipating change and adjusting hunting technique and location. That and hard work. Elk are complex beasts. And probably the toughest out there. What you and I think is inhabitable, they call home.

[LBM]

Average kill last 30 years = 61 cats per year

Average kill last 10 years = 55 cats per year

Harvest is less than the 30 year average now. That does not support the over harvest scenario you are trying to paint.

Average hunters in the 1990s = 209

Average hunters in the 2000s = 199

Average number of hunters has dropped in the 2000s compared to the 1990s. That does not support the more hunters than ever scenario you are trying to paint.

I know you like to manipulate numbers for your agendas or as mentioned you don't have a clue, and we are talking the kootenays here.
So since the 2005-2006 season to the 2015-16 season there has been aprox 1058 cougars harvested by hunters that's not including total kills
so kind of doubles your 10 year average. Since you don't know where the hunters are actually hunting, those numbers mean nothing as well.

[Bugle M In]

I know you like to manipulate numbers for your agendas or as mentioned you don't have a clue, and we are talking the kootenays here.
So since the 2005-2006 season to the 2015-16 season there has been aprox 1058 cougars harvested by hunters that's not including total kills
so kind of doubles your 10 year average. Since you don't know where the hunters are actually hunting, those numbers mean nothing as well.

Question here,

The stats are just numbers in MU's and regions.
But, I am assuming there are no "Actual Maps", that show where exactly these "Predators Kills are actually happening.
(meaning a map of Watersheds, and the density of hunts "concentrated" in each watershed....hope that made sense?)
Would be interesting to see "Where or Which" areas are "getting" predator control support, and which area are getting
virtually "0" days)
I suspect my area gets virtually no Predator hunting, be it bears, cougars and wolf.
From speaking with the local outfitter, he states the "trapper" for the area "Does Not" go after Wolf at all.
That being said, this outfitter has also stated, that he doesn't hunt G-bear or B-Bear as of yet....Why...
He is waiting for them to become "Trophy Sized".
Obviously, he is not worried about "losing out" to hunters in the area thru competition.
That being said, I suspect there are many areas that do not receive any or almost no predator hunting, which may
directly be influencing why I seem to feel there has been a drastic drop of elk/whities in the area I hunt.
A map with predator hunting concentration would be great to see, and might be informative very informative for other
to see if they are looking for "new areas" to hunt Preds if they so wish.
Again, I guess this comes down to "lack of funding" to get the proper info if it is not being recorded as of yet.
It also relies on the "faith" that hunters would actually report this stuff "truthfully".
Just another problem that may exist that should be possibly looked at.:?:

[BgBlkDg]

The only one that I have ever really seen give a personal background is you and it seems to be in about every 5th or so post of yours and not to be rude but t gets a bit old.
The big difference between me and you is I live in the kootenays and am out in it every day and actually see what goes on. True I don't no what goes on in all of the kootenays though.
For a background some may say I come from one of the pioneer families.

Really, how very interesting and I am impressed, although you still did not answer my simple question.

There are several "big" differences between you and I, as I think quite obvious, however, would you please answer me and also tell us just how long your "pioneer family" has lived in the Kootenays?

I was born there, seven generations of my family have/do live there and I am in frequent contact with relatives and friends there who are wildlife bios., foresters and also VERY experienced bushmen-----meaning 50 years of actual experience.

I do return often and actually have sufficient experience and education to have some realistic opinions as to environmental management issues.

So, would you reply as requested?

[LBM]

Question here,

The stats are just numbers in MU's and regions.
But, I am assuming there are no "Actual Maps", that show where exactly these "Predators Kills are actually happening.
(meaning a map of Watersheds, and the density of hunts "concentrated" in each watershed....hope that made sense?)
Would be interesting to see "Where or Which" areas are "getting" predator control support, and which area are getting
virtually "0" days)
I suspect my area gets virtually no Predator hunting, be it bears, cougars and wolf.
From speaking with the local outfitter, he states the "trapper" for the area "Does Not" go after Wolf at all.
That being said, this outfitter has also stated, that he doesn't hunt G-bear or B-Bear as of yet....Why...
He is waiting for them to become "Trophy Sized".
Obviously, he is not worried about "losing out" to hunters in the area thru competition.
That being said, I suspect there are many areas that do not receive any or almost no predator hunting, which may
directly be influencing why I seem to feel there has been a drastic drop of elk/whities in the area I hunt.
A map with predator hunting concentration would be great to see, and might be informative very informative for other
to see if they are looking for "new areas" to hunt Preds if they so wish.
Again, I guess this comes down to "lack of funding" to get the proper info if it is not being recorded as of yet.
It also relies on the "faith" that hunters would actually report this stuff "truthfully".
Just another problem that may exist that should be possibly looked at.:?:

The cross,palliser, kootenay, raven head, white rock country all gets hit hard by cat, bear and wolf hunters/trappers.

[Bugle M In]

The cross,palliser, kootenay, raven head, white rock country all gets hit hard by cat, bear and wolf hunters/trappers.

Well, if they are getting hit hard by predator hunters, than all I can say is.....
"We have a hell of a lot of Predators", causing I see a lot of them, bears and cougars physically, and
wolves thru tracks and scat, unfortunately, not in the physical sense.
Don't get me wrong, I 'm not trying to be a "smart ass" with the comment.
I'm just listening to what you have said, and have no reason to disbelieve you on whether area are being hunted
by hunters of predators, but, I still don't see it making a dent in that case.
The few I see,(due to Road Restrictions) are there for elk or have an leh moose, whities they go elsewhere.
And the odd sheep and goat guys.....
But I never see anyone around looking for cats or b bear, and g bear is closed at that time of year.
Even the Lodge near by, has some "cams out", and they show more pics of cats and wolves, than they do of elk.
Anyways, I'm not here to debate....but I think many agree, elk hunting in the E.k. is harder and different than it once was.

[LBM]

Well, if they are getting hit hard by predator hunters, than all I can say is.....
"We have a hell of a lot of Predators", causing I see a lot of them, bears and cougars physically, and
wolves thru tracks and scat, unfortunately, not in the physical sense.
Don't get me wrong, I 'm not trying to be a "smart ass" with the comment.
I'm just listening to what you have said, and have no reason to disbelieve you on whether area are being hunted
by hunters of predators, but, I still don't see it making a dent in that case.
The few I see,(due to Road Restrictions) are there for elk or have an leh moose, whities they go elsewhere.
And the odd sheep and goat guys.....
But I never see anyone around looking for cats or b bear, and g bear is closed at that time of year.
Even the Lodge near by, has some "cams out", and they show more pics of cats and wolves, than they do of elk.
Anyways, I'm not here to debate....but I think many agree, elk hunting in the E.k. is harder and different than it once was.

Cat hunters wont be there in elk season not typically till the snow flies, more guys spring black bear hunt but some have a tag in case for a
fall bear, of course only spring grizzly. Not sure which trappers own which line any more but does get trapped.
Its up to you who you believe. Nipika isn't the most hunter friendly group.

[Fisher-Dude]

I know you like to manipulate numbers for your agendas or as mentioned you don't have a clue, and we are talking the kootenays here.
So since the 2005-2006 season to the 2015-16 season there has been aprox 1058 cougars harvested by hunters that's not including total kills
so kind of doubles your 10 year average. Since you don't know where the hunters are actually hunting, those numbers mean nothing as well.

Those are the Kootenay numbers that I posted, and the locals are not hunting nor killing as many cats as they were before.

Like most cat hunters, you're probably one of the guys that hasn't adapted to changing conditions, and then bitches that you don't see a cat on the same hill where you ran one 20 years ago.

And you may forget that I spent many a mile trooping behind baying hounds. I also met many cat hunters, and to say most are tight-lipped doom and gloomers who just want to discourage others from enjoying the hunt is an understatement.

If people think sheep hunters are the most BSing lot, they've never met a cat hunter.

[LBM]

Those are the Kootenay numbers that I posted, and the locals are not hunting nor killing as many cats as they were before.

Like most cat hunters, you're probably one of the guys that hasn't adapted to changing conditions, and then bitches that you don't see a cat on the same hill where you ran one 20 years ago.

And you may forget that I spent many a mile trooping behind baying hounds. I also met many cat hunters, and to say most are tight-lipped doom and gloomers who just want to discourage others from enjoying the hunt is an understatement.

If people think sheep hunters are the most BSing lot, they've never met a cat hunter.
Sorry yours arnt kootenay numbers, like I said you have no clue and like I said total kill is even higher, and yes the are killing more but I am only going back to 97 numbers.
If your numbers for wildlife are what people are believing then every thing is in trouble.

[Bugle M In]

Cat hunters wont be there in elk season not typically till the snow flies, more guys spring black bear hunt but some have a tag in case for a
fall bear, of course only spring grizzly. Not sure which trappers own which line any more but does get trapped.
Its up to you who you believe. Nipika isn't the most hunter friendly group.

I wouldn't even give a "squirt of piss" for anyone at Nipika....that's for sure, and if the valley burnt down, and took out that lodge,
And the other beside it, I wouldn't be shedding any tears.....not that I want to see anyone hurt, but, it sounds like you know
what I mean.
The info from trapping came from the outfitter in the area, who told me what his discussions had been with the trapper in that area.
Yes, second hand news, but I can't see a reason why he would make that discussion up, and than tell me, if I see wolves...to blast them.
I generally take people with a grain of salt when they discuss things such as elk numbers in the area etc, especially when the conversation is directly related to their "lively hood", but I do know from the CO's, that there is a struggle to find Elk these days
for many hunters in the EK.
Now, I guess the question is, if that report on Elk #'s holds any weight, what might that mean for us down the line.
Are we going to pay the price yet again, or is the Ministry going to come up with some better "resolutions" than in the past, or
just tear a page from the old playbook, and limit hunting even further???
Obviously, that 6 pt restriction had "very little effect"....IMO.
And if that didn't rectify "over hunting" as the main problem for Elk #'s than, than what is the reason/s now?
Thus the reason for the OP, and us to have fun and discuss....as much seems to be out of our control for the most part anyways.

[Fisher-Dude]

Some people would rather have cats to run than elk to eat.

What they don't get is that when the ungulates are all killed by preds, cats will be gone too. But, some don't really care what the future provides, and are just in it for the here and now "good times."

[LBM]

Some people would rather have cats to run than elk to eat.

What they don't get is that when the ungulates are all killed by preds, cats will be gone too. But, some don't really care what the future provides, and are just in it for the here and now "good times."
And some are not concerned about conservation at all, eliminate one animal from killing another so they can kill it, the animal still dies.
Ungulates are not all killed by predators, take the 2 whitetail doe season, now people are saying they don't see any whitetails, I guess they are just for the here and now.

[Bugle M In]

I guess what I wonder is...
If we let nature take care of itself, we all now she can.
And we wait around for the natural process to occur and rectify itself thru time.....how long will it take to watch elk
decline to very low levels first, than watch the Preds die off (although, they are seemingly better at adapting to other
prey sources if it need be), how long until they die off, and than watch elk return, and if by than, what level will we be at than,
taking into account, more development and less winter range, and most likely, further encroachment by multi user groups.
Ya, I hunt Elk, and yes, to some degree there is "selfishness" possibly in my statements and comments, but, what I fear is,
that 2 of the groups of users in the EK environment will lose out....hunters and the wildlife ie elk.
I think what we all are seeing is the future snowballing, and the effects of a lot of problems not being addressed or to some effect
rectified.
I'm getting older, I hunted q lot, maybe not as much as I wish I could have, especially now in lousy physical health.
I could say, "hell, who cares, I'm almost done with hunting anyways", but, I have a daughter, as many have children here on this
site, who I am sure would like the Same Opportunities we once had....
I already know, my opportunities were not the same as my fathers, although I am still thankful for the chances I received, but they
seem to be dwindling.
Not so sure that will happen, and I'm not screaming the "sky is falling", but it does worry me what future generations will have.
And, on another note, when we "transplant", say elk for example, rarely does it come to fruition to hunt them.
At best, a small LEH, and a "Lot of Poaching" going on.
Lytton got shut down, do I need to say why and who?
Indian Arm seems to have it's issues with poaching, from my understanding...should I say who.
Even when we try other options, they seem not to work out as expected.
I think the only reason the Pitt Lake herd might be okay, is to a large part, limited access.
Can't say much about the Peace Region herds, as I have till yet to hunt up there, but atleast there are Elk up there that
from my understanding hadn't been years ago...so it is possible to have some faith I suppose.

[horshur]

Average kill last 30 years = 61 cats per year

Average kill last 10 years = 55 cats per year

Harvest is less than the 30 year average now. That does not support the over harvest scenario you are trying to paint.

Average hunters in the 1990s = 209

Average hunters in the 2000s = 199

Average number of hunters has dropped in the 2000s compared to the 1990s. That does not support the more hunters than ever scenario you are trying to paint.

give the mode.....what age is killed the most now and what age 30 years ago
They ask on the questionnaire how many hunter days?..how about a real comparison?. What cats are included in the kill? are predation cats in the numbers before but not now?. Are the Cats CO's kill recorded in your average at all?? What is the co's average?.Were kittens counted? Average hunters?what is a hunter?? a tag buyer? those numbers don't amount to much without a definition. What is the mean number of days these cat hunters hunted? remember buying a tag gets you in the average. Actual hunter days could be way up how do your numbers show anything really cept less people bought a tag? The definition of hunting includes pursuit off. How many times a season is the average cat treed? How many times does the average houndsmen tree the same cat? What is the definition of harassment? I do not doubt at all bayou's suggestion that cats are overhunted in some areas.
What sort of population is the koots? is it a source or a sink? What should it be? What about sexual segregation and the struggling mule deer?Region4 was part of that study. The current management is for high populations because the mode age class killed is young males <1.5 to 2.5 years old. Killing young males does little to effect the population.

[LBM]

give the mode.....what age is killed the most now and what age 30 years ago
They ask on the questionnaire how many hunter days?..how about a real comparison?. What cats are included in the kill? are predation cats in the numbers before but not now?. Are the Cats CO's kill recorded in your average at all?? What is the co's average?.Were kittens counted? Average hunters?what is a hunter?? a tag buyer? those numbers don't amount to much without a definition. What is the mean number of days these cat hunters hunted? remember buying a tag gets you in the average. Actual hunter days could be way up how do your numbers show anything really cept less people bought a tag? The definition of hunting includes pursuit off. How many times a season is the average cat treed? How many times does the average houndsmen tree the same cat? What is the definition of harassment? I do not doubt at all bayou's suggestion that cats are overhunted in some areas.
What sort of population is the koots? is it a source or a sink? What should it be? What about sexual segregation and the struggling mule deer?Region4 was part of that study. The current management is for high populations because the mode age class killed is young males <1.5 to 2.5 years old. Killing young males does little to effect the population.

Its hard to trust numbers when they are not accurate to start with.
I will add in the last 4 years there has been another 182 (Other kills) in some MUs the COs and trappers kill more then hunters.

[LBM]

I guess what I wonder is...
If we let nature take care of itself, we all now she can.
And we wait around for the natural process to occur and rectify itself thru time.....how long will it take to watch elk
decline to very low levels first, than watch the Preds die off (although, they are seemingly better at adapting to other
prey sources if it need be), how long until they die off, and than watch elk return, and if by than, what level will we be at than,
taking into account, more development and less winter range, and most likely, further encroachment by multi user groups.
Ya, I hunt Elk, and yes, to some degree there is "selfishness" possibly in my statements and comments, but, what I fear is,
that 2 of the groups of users in the EK environment will lose out....hunters and the wildlife ie elk.
I think what we all are seeing is the future snowballing, and the effects of a lot of problems not being addressed or to some effect
rectified.
I'm getting older, I hunted q lot, maybe not as much as I wish I could have, especially now in lousy physical health.
I could say, "hell, who cares, I'm almost done with hunting anyways", but, I have a daughter, as many have children here on this
site, who I am sure would like the Same Opportunities we once had....
I already know, my opportunities were not the same as my fathers, although I am still thankful for the chances I received, but they
seem to be dwindling.
Not so sure that will happen, and I'm not screaming the "sky is falling", but it does worry me what future generations will have.
And, on another note, when we "transplant", say elk for example, rarely does it come to fruition to hunt them.
At best, a small LEH, and a "Lot of Poaching" going on.
Lytton got shut down, do I need to say why and who?
Indian Arm seems to have it's issues with poaching, from my understanding...should I say who.
Even when we try other options, they seem not to work out as expected.
I think the only reason the Pitt Lake herd might be okay, is to a large part, limited access.
Can't say much about the Peace Region herds, as I have till yet to hunt up there, but atleast there are Elk up there that
from my understanding hadn't been years ago...so it is possible to have some faith I suppose.

Man has been involved way to long to let nature take its course but humans have to also start taking part of the responsibility for whats happening.
In the past there has been lots of poaching in your MU, we have found dead elk into the double digits on more then one occasion, it was going on again
last year as well. You may want to move down the valley and around the corner abit, there seems to be a fair number of elk taken there the last few years.
For your info there was 7 knowing cats killed in your MU. last year.
Unfortunatly I don't think your daughter will see it as you once had it, those are your memorys to share with her and you get to start new ones with her.
Things seem to be changing yearly now.

[FishandHunt]

Is there ever any data posted about how many elk are killed by vehicles every year?

[Bugle M In]

Man has been involved way to long to let nature take its course but humans have to also start taking part of the responsibility for whats happening.
In the past there has been lots of poaching in your MU, we have found dead elk into the double digits on more then one occasion, it was going on again
last year as well. You may want to move down the valley and around the corner abit, there seems to be a fair number of elk taken there the last few years.
For your info there was 7 knowing cats killed in your MU. last year.
Unfortunatly I don't think your daughter will see it as you once had it, those are your memorys to share with her and you get to start new ones with her.
Things seem to be changing yearly now.

I probably didn't go far enough down then I suppose last season....
I did go a ways down and around the corner, but again, we hardly found an Elk track.
But as for Poaching, that I would have to ask the CO, as I was unaware of that happening up there.
What I have seen in the past 3 to 5 years, is a lot of winter kill, young 6pt bulls, which to the best of my observations,
were most likely the result of Predators....wolf most likely, but cant confirm that.
These weren't bulls that were wounded during the hunting season either...decomposition was more likely from the past
Spring or Winter before.
Interesting, I checked out Nipika facebook, and this past January, again their cams show Wolves, and even a pack howling away,
so, whomever is "pounding" that area hunting/trapping wolves, has a lot more "Pounding" ahead of them.....lol.
The Winter before that, again, Wolves and Cougars on the Trail Cams.
Ironically, they used to like posting Elk Pics in "Their Lodge" and Surrounding Areaa.....But, for some reason, they don't seem
to be posting much Elk pics these days......possibly a lack of "Photo Opportunities"....lol.
Agreed though, I will be heading more South this season, If the area is used to concentrate efforts in again show no sign of elk.
Or, as suggested by a few, West side of the Columbia River.

[happyhunter]

The cross,palliser, kootenay, raven head, white rock country all gets hit hard by cat, bear and wolf hunters/trappers.

Nobodies hitting wolves hard in any of those areas, or if they are then there are still plenty more to go around I promise you that!

[j270wsm]

Obviously, that 6 pt restriction had "very little effect"....IMO.
And if that didn't rectify "over hunting" as the main problem for Elk #'s than, than what is the reason/s now?
Thus the reason for the OP, and us to have fun and discuss....as much seems to be out of our control for the most part anyways.

The 6pt season is one of the main reasons why our elk herd was so strong. We all know that hunting Bulls doesn't hurt the population over a long period. The ranchers in 4-02x are the main reason the elk numbers in the trench have dropped. They complained about crop damage and the ministry open cows then in the following years gave out hundreds of cow leh tags. In the elk valley there is one " pioneering family" that has fenced off prime elk wintering range with electric fences.

There are tons of things causing the elk population to drop but human aren't the biggest issue, at least the ones that follow the rules/regulations. As others have mentioned, predators kill more elk each year than hunters.

LBM are you part of the pioneering family I mentioned??

[BgBlkDg]

Ah, the "plot thickens" as they say and perhaps some more literate and credible sources may be heard from. I certainly have witnessed the negative effects of agriculture on elk in the Kootenays, starting more than 50 years ago, in the Elk Valley and have wanted much stricter controls over ranchers as a result.

I see NO valid reason for allowing grazing on Crown Lands, by any commercial entity and all such activity should be permanently banned province-wide. Why should my opportunities for hunting be limited so that some rancher can get cheap grazing and batten on the resource that belongs to all BC citizens?

[LBM]

The 6pt season is one of the main reasons why our elk herd was so strong. We all know that hunting Bulls doesn't hurt the population over a long period. The ranchers in 4-02x are the main reason the elk numbers in the trench have dropped. They complained about crop damage and the ministry open cows then in the following years gave out hundreds of cow leh tags. In the elk valley there is one " pioneering family" that has fenced off prime elk wintering range with electric fences.

There are tons of things causing the elk population to drop but human aren't the biggest issue, at least the ones that follow the rules/regulations. As others have mentioned, predators kill more elk each year than hunters.

LBM are you part of the pioneering family I mentioned??

Nope not part of that family, against all the high fences ranchers put up actually. Changing the elks travel routes and causing a lot of elk to be killed.
Elk being hit on roads now where they never use to cross or travel because of the fences and development.
Remember I said humans not hunters.

[Husky7mm]

Ah, the "plot thickens" as they say and perhaps some more literate and credible sources may be heard from. I certainly have witnessed the negative effects of agriculture on elk in the Kootenays, starting more than 50 years ago, in the Elk Valley and have wanted much stricter controls over ranchers as a result.

I see NO valid reason for allowing grazing on Crown Lands, by any commercial entity and all such activity should be permanently banned province-wide. Why should my opportunities for hunting be limited so that some rancher can get cheap grazing and batten on the resource that belongs to all BC citizens?


On summer range there is no shortage of grass, it will be covered by deep snow long before its over grazed. As for cattle on winter range I agree, save it for the ungulates.

[J_T]

Cattle aren't all bad on the range. If you have a good burn program, cattle really help to break down the decadent forbes and shrubs. Also, on winter range, elk don't like feeding on tall long grasses. Elk prefer the flowered top of the grasses trimmed off. Having cattle graze it first can make for better feed for elk.

[GoatGuy]

Get real you guys.

Moose are way down over the long-run, and recruitment rates are generally low. Hasn't been a cow/calf harvest for decades. Sex ratios are very good (well above other parts of the province), and still population in decline.

Mule deer are down over the long-run, hasn't been a doe draw since the 90s.

Elk are down, the homesteader component is higher than ever, and all show very low recruitment rates. The populations that are suffering the most are the ones which haven't had any cow/calf harvest for years and still return to the 'high country' (of which there are fewer and fewer every year). The populations with the lowest bull harvest also have the lowest recruitment rates.


Meanwhile elk and moose in the central okanagan have increased over the last decade (moose doubled) despite the highest road and hunter density in the province. Even have a month long any buck season; mule deer sex ratios are lower than EK, yet recruitment rates are higher. First Nations harvest is extremely high yet things are generally on the rise.....


Get a grip.

[GoatGuy]

Cattle aren't all bad on the range. If you have a good burn program, cattle really help to break down the decadent forbes and shrubs. Also, on winter range, elk don't like feeding on tall long grasses. Elk prefer the flowered top of the grasses trimmed off. Having cattle graze it first can make for better feed for elk.

That is not what the results are showing. Bunchgrasses in the EK are not built for the current level of grazing or fire suppression in the EK.

[Xenomorph]

That is not what the results are showing. Bunchgrasses in the EK are not built for the current level of grazing or fire suppression in the EK.


Clean up your inbox GG, you're full to the brim and I cannot sent you any messages.

[J_T]

Homesteader elk are not higher. And I didnt say cattle are all good. I understand over grazing. Id prefer hunters, wildlife managers and cattle rancher be collaborative rather than adversarial. But i do understand most of you guys prefer the adversarial approach.

[mtnmanmike]

Nobodies hitting wolves hard in any of those areas, or if they are then there are still plenty more to go around I promise you that!
The problem with that area is that it borders up against the national park. Packs of 14 and 16 wolves have been witnessed in the park and unless they migrate south into a trapper's area, they don't have a chance of being caught

[Bugle M In]

The problem with that area is that it borders up against the national park. Packs of 14 and 16 wolves have been witnessed in the park and unless they migrate south into a trapper's area, they don't have a chance of being caught
Very True....

[GoatGuy]

Homesteader elk are not higher. And I didnt say cattle are all good. I understand over grazing. Id prefer hunters, wildlife managers and cattle rancher be collaborative rather than adversarial. But i do understand most of you guys prefer the adversarial approach.
1) from the collar and inv data it looks like the proportion of non-mig has never been higher. Believe gov staff estimate @ 50% iirc, Unless there is new data from the last week or two???

2) agreed, but the facts and values discussion are discreet. Beliefs and values have a place in decision making, but should not be mistaken as facts.

[GoatGuy]

Clean up your inbox GG, you're full to the brim and I cannot sent you any messages....
Done....

[mtnmanmike]

In the EK (and WK) you have population declines, particularly in areas where there is little to no access. You have low recruitment across the board (even where there hasn't been a cow/calf draw for years [or ever]), a couple of migratory herds which are now gone, and what's left is principally non-migratory.

Predators, and habitat are driving that. The same thing is happening across a lot of North America - it isn't just the EK.

What have other areas across North America done or are trying to do, to get the migratory elk back to their traditional areas? Do they have a government program to reduce predators?vAnd what are your thoughts to get these elk back to where they belong? Also, how is the government petitioned to return much needed funding back to wildlife managment? To me it looks like this is a multi-answer/solution to get the ungulate numbers back up. Collaboration between mutliple government ministries (i.e environment, agriculture, forestry, etc.) as well as user groups (i.e hunters, cattlemen, etc.). Could habitat restoration be funded by stumpage fees paid to the gov't from the logging contractors that harvest the timber, which they sell what ever is merchantible and the rest as hog fuel to the pulp mills. Then have controlled burns once the logging is complete so the fuel levels aren't as high. This way we can increase the holding capacity of the land for elk, deer and moose. Then also look at maybe reducing the time cattle is on the land for grazing. To me it looks like the cattle are put on the land too early in the spring and pulled off too late in the fall, not giving enough time for the grass to grow before the growing season ends? Leaving not enough forage for the elk and deer in the winter months. Just my thoughts as I read through all the posts and listen in to all the different angles and knowing the expertise and field you work in GoatGuy

[Fisher-Dude]

Search "cattle."

http://contributions.electionsbc.gov.bc.ca/pcs/SA1SearchResults.aspx?FilerSK=(ALL)&EDSK=0&FilerTypeSK=0&Contributor=cattle&PartySK=0&ED=(ALL)&FilerType=(ALL)&Filer=(ALL)&Party=(ALL)&DateTo=&DateFrom=&DFYear=&DFMonth=&DFDay=&DTYear=&DTMonth=&DTDay=

Search "ranch."

http://contributions.electionsbc.gov.bc.ca/pcs/SA1SearchResults.aspx?FilerSK=(ALL)&EDSK=0&FilerTypeSK=0&Contributor=ranch&PartySK=0&ED=(ALL)&FilerType=(ALL)&Filer=(ALL)&Party=(ALL)&DateTo=&DateFrom=&DFYear=&DFMonth=&DFDay=&DTYear=&DTMonth=&DTDay=


That should tell you all you need to know about limiting cattle grazing in order to benefit wildlife.

[mtnmanmike]

Wow, that is quite a substantial contribution almost $150, 000 right there. Can see why they wouldn't want to "ruffle the feathers" of the cattlemen society.

[Rob Chipman]

Actually, when I look at that I'm not impressed by the number. $150,000 isn't really that much.

That's not the same as saying it's not enough to make a difference, but I am saying that if those contributions sway legislator's opinions then they're selling themselves cheap and the game is actually still competitive.

Excellent info, btw, FD.

This is a very interesting thread. As GG pointed out, we don't only have problems with elk, but also moose, mule deer, caribou and sheep. And, as most of us agree, even when we disagree on causes and solutions, the end goal is more animals and, (I think we agree on this) long term sustainable hunting opportunities for BC hunters.

[horshur]

there is published material on migratory herd predation in a national park ..that wolves park in the burns...that burns do not solve the issues...Goat????

[GoatGuy]

there is published material on migratory herd predation in a national park ..that wolves park in the burns...that burns do not solve the issues...Goat????

Park and elk show lower encounter and mortality rates in grasslands.... also shows a shift from migratory to non-migratory elk (including in jellystone and banff).

In Banff wolf encounter rates for elk were 1.3 times higher in pine forestand 4.1 times less in grassland than other habitats. The odds of being killed in pine forestsincreased 1.3 times and 4.1 times less in grasslands than other habitats - from Hebblewhite's work.

If you look at the old pictures and the new the difference is easily seen.

Long-term with the 'human shield' or homesteader wildlife the big picture has not been figured out. Driving factor appears to be wolves, and possibly poor habitat suitability. No one knows the solution, but there are some who are out managing wolves, and some that are managing cougars, and some that are managing habitat, and they are seeing some success.

[GoatGuy]

What have other areas across North America done or are trying to do, to get the migratory elk back to their traditional areas? Do they have a government program to reduce predators?vAnd what are your thoughts to get these elk back to where they belong? Also, how is the government petitioned to return much needed funding back to wildlife managment? To me it looks like this is a multi-answer/solution to get the ungulate numbers back up. Collaboration between mutliple government ministries (i.e environment, agriculture, forestry, etc.) as well as user groups (i.e hunters, cattlemen, etc.). Could habitat restoration be funded by stumpage fees paid to the gov't from the logging contractors that harvest the timber, which they sell what ever is merchantible and the rest as hog fuel to the pulp mills. Then have controlled burns once the logging is complete so the fuel levels aren't as high. This way we can increase the holding capacity of the land for elk, deer and moose. Then also look at maybe reducing the time cattle is on the land for grazing. To me it looks like the cattle are put on the land too early in the spring and pulled off too late in the fall, not giving enough time for the grass to grow before the growing season ends? Leaving not enough forage for the elk and deer in the winter months. Just my thoughts as I read through all the posts and listen in to all the different angles and knowing the expertise and field you work in GoatGuy

No silver bullet on the non-mig but places like idaho are out managing wolves, some in washington state managing cougars. It appears to be working.... a bit. We know the habitat is in poor condition in th EK due to forest ingrowth, habitat alienation/loss, and invasive/knoxious weeds.

Unless you have money for a proper wildlife management program you aren't going to get anywhere.

You're on the right track - great questions and thoughts.

[Bugle M In]

[QUOTE=j270wsm;1799618]The 6pt season is one of the main reasons why our elk herd was so strong. We all know that hunting Bulls doesn't hurt the population over a long period.



Sorry, but I think I don't totally agree with you on this, respectfully.
I have spent a lot of time over the years hunting one area specifically over the past 30+ years.
How I remember things, and my perspective, this is what it seemed like.
I will be corrected, although, people in the "know" haven't seemed to make a difference.
Back in 80's and into 90's, there were LEH Cow Elk in most MU's of R4.
These tags definitely targeted many, what I call, High Country Elk.
Not ZoneX.
Lots of them!,if recall right,400 to 500 tags just for mu25.
It didn't take long for Cows not to be seen any longer.(20 to 30 together at a time years before).
I did complain back than, I thought it was "overkill", but nobody would listen.
Than came 90's, and in 96, (?) after "outcries" of no elk any more, the 6 pt and a later opening that year, was implemented.
This to correct everything in time, well.,did it?
After seeing 6pt taken from harems, leaving 5pt with the cows, not so sure that is the way "Nature" had intended to implement
"healthy" selection.
I hear the Argument, it's in the Genes, but, I would rather have let that 6pt breed, as was intended thru natural selection,
than to allow possibly a 5pt do the breeding (potentially), and "Hope" it was in the Genes.
Only ones happy about the 6pt, outfitters,saying, now we will have trophy sized Bull Elk again, Not
If customers want trophy sized Elk, they should stay and hunt in the States on those Ranches.
If to see a “Beautiful Part of the World”....than BC has it.
Back to the other things that seemed to occur around that time.
Late 80, early 90 logging started to come on site, beetle kill.
More Access Roads.
Wolves, which were rarely there before.
Seeing a lot more WT, in the 90's, IMO, due to the logging.
WT flourished.
Around that time, the MD drop off.
Moose dropped, season was closed, may have happened earlier?
Started to see Explosion in Wolf.
Mild Winters happening, lack of Slides in the High Country, which Elk back in the day.
2000's.
Hunters in High Country, say Elk not there.
Lower was Elk, and more cows again, but not like before.
At this time, Wolves all over the place,16 together.
Started seeing GBears and Cats.
Than due to MD declines, and apparent over abundance of WT, they opened it up on WT.
Now, these past few years, something changed for sure.
Little if any sign of Elk, hardly a WT, and yet, still some "prime habitat" for deer and elk available up there,
from logging that was done in the later stages of their circuit.
Yet, nothing really there, not even tracks.
Sign we did start to see, wolf scat, with deer/elk hair in it, up and down valley.
Now, Im not here to debate with GG on Moose #'s, but in this area, Moose were spotted quite often now.
Lack of an open season for many years, probably helped.
But, I ask myself, if Moose are not being preyed on, and wolves will prey on Moose, what other predator may target
more likely just Elk and WT, Cats maybe?
GBear are in the area where Elk are dropping Calves, which was rare to see them before now.
Predators Increase, wolf for sure
ZoneX hunts also in the 2000's, and, Early Any Bull Bow Season, Youth/Senior season.
ZoneX was a complete different story, catered to help the Ranchers/Farmers I suppose, and I guess some hunters benefitted,
taking care of Lowland Resident Elk, non migrators I suppose.
Throw in a late Alberta Elk season, Elk do not stay inside BC due to a line on the Map.
Poaching, I don't know much on that, just the illegal vehicles hunting beyond road closures.
Have a call into the CO's to find out if poaching in area is a problem.
Past few years, rarely ever saw, is Winter killed Elk, but, appear to be young Elk, not worn out old bulls after a long rut,
correct me if I am wrong, there hasn't been a bad winter up there since the 80's.
So, why they dying off, or, what is killing them.
Suddenly WT are dropping, Elk missing.

Ask myself, if OP has truth, and Elk are way down.
Are they at low point of cycle, or, have they even hit rock bottom yet?
Wonder what the steps are that the Ministry will take to correct them?
If like past playbook, closures or more restrictions, but will that make difference, only if it is Over Hunting,
that caused this problem.
I understand LBM when he says it has a Human Factor to the problem.
I have seen people call out #'s and statistics for long time now, yet, hasn't improved the Situation.
As far as I’m concerned, it's just paper and #'s and a lot of Arguing.
(this is not a dig on you FD nor LBM , at least not meant to be)
There are a Lot of Factors going on here, that's why a "one of" implementation of Policy due to Science doesn't seem to be
working, IMO.
Obvious to most here, my first passion is hunting Elk, as are others here, H47 etc.
It does concern me to see what is happening, and when I speak to others, who also have the same passion for Elk and hunting them,
they are concerned as well.
I don’t need to “Bag a Bull” to make it a Successful Trip, by no means, so I don’t bitch about not getting one.
But, another thread posted called Death of A Valley, is all to familiar to me.
What gets me concerned is when I don’t see a Healthy EcoSystem in front of me when I am there.
IF I at least saw Elk, regardless of success, I would be all smiles, now I would just smile to see a track, lol.
I will continue to go to that valley, for better/worse, and as I have for all these years, watch it go thru changes and what transpires.

We have ranches and farmers wanting the Elk gone from Their Land.
If not, I guess they can do as was done in Christian Valley at one point, call FN to cull them.
But, they want their cake and eat it too, and would like to make “money” from the Situation, private hunts possibly.
We have Roads that need to be Deactivated., way better Deactivated.
Mother Nature will take care of itself.
We may just not like what it Serves Us when finished shuffling the deck this time.
It can only work within the Constraints we give her, and we are “Developing” a lot of that.

Due to Public Pressure, GreenPeacers, save the dying/verge of extinction Predators, the Ministry will do nothing.
They’ll continue to Cater to Ranchers I suppose, so we won’t be obtaining Historical Winter Ranges Again.
And The Ministry will Cry, ”No Money” to fix things right.
Where do you think it leaves the last 2 user groups.
Us the hunter, probably with the short end of the stick, although I don’t think we did caused it this time.
And Elk, who don’t have chance in hell right now, I don’t think the rebound will be a big bounce back without Big Changes across the Board.
The Ministry will just tear a page from the “Old Playbook” once again, and around and around we go.
The Ministry needs to make this a Government Issue, so that all these changes can be made, if they even care?
Again, public and private issues will intervene.
There were some good points made IMO, by many, and am not sure why some of us need to “get real”.
I may disagree with some posts or parts of (j270, and hey, it might be me who is wrong), but I respect the fact that people at least are concerned enough to partake in thread.
Science at times sure hasn’t led to “good policies”, maybe it should have, but, science is no good if not followed with proper action or some solution I suppose.
Science can be good, if it somehow can be applied to the problem ongoing, but this might be a little beyond the scope of just #’s and what is actually happening.
Like plane crash investigation, everyone looking for the Smoking Gun, but, quite often is a cause of several occurring problems in sequence that cause the crash.
Often, only one problem will not cause an issue or a major one anyways.

Okay,ignore me know, continue on with #’s and it’s this and not that etc, it’s worked well so far?
It’s “Everything” this time around, IMO.
It’s where we are at, time has just shown us how much is wrong all across the board.

[Walking Buffalo]

there is published material on migratory herd predation in a national park ..that wolves park in the burns...that burns do not solve the issues...Goat????


Are you referring to the Yaha Tinda Elk massacre?


The migratory elk were wiped out....

[horshur]

Are you referring to the Yaha Tinda Elk massacre?


The migratory elk were wiped out....

ya ha tinda has grasslands eh?? No I can't find the article.. it is in reference to a study after prescribed burn I believe it was Banff..It was Hebblewhite.I will hunt it up.

[HarryToolips]

Some valid concerns there Bugle by the sounds of it...I'm thinking the best way to start solving all these problems is by throwing $$$$ at them, should we start a fund for habitat creation or inventory counts to start???

[Bugle M In]

Well, some people have me questioning something?
I have always been "FOR" Vehicle Road Closure Restriction.
As outward thinking would have it, especially back in the day it was implemented, many moons ago,
was to Protect Species like Elk and Moose, as well a Sheep and Goat I suppose from "Over Hunting" or
"Too Much Hunting Pressure" concerns......legit I think.
But, at the time, We didn't have the Wolves and possibly the Cat #'s like back than.

So, did we end up "Creating a Safe Haven" for Wolves to operate out of?
I know where I hunt, I am surrounded by a park, and recently, the CO Said to me, that it is possible that the
Wolves in the Area, move in and out of this Park, so, they sort of have a "Safety Zone"
And another poster made the same comment, and I am starting to think....you know....that makes a lot of sense to the
situation up there.
And this is what I would consider the beginning of High Country in the EK, where elk used to roam.
But, maybe the practice of Road Closures, especially when it pertains to High Country, might be Back Firing!?
Who the hell wants to pack in 20 miles just to hunt Wolf?
Cant' blame the Elk for not wanting to stick around, especially how Narrow the Valley is to begin with.
Just like with Wolves in Reg 3....I'm starting to find that MD are hanging ever closer to where the "humans are".
I think they rather chance survival on the poor hunting skills of a human, to that of a pack of Efficient Wolves.
Let's face it, wolves do fear humans, so they tend to give us a wide berth, and why they are so hard to see or find physically.
Maybe why what GG said about Elk surviving Wolf in grasslands better might likely be do to less snow levels to evade, and
the fact that generally there are more humans in the Vicinity of grasslands, generally speaking.

As for money, that makes sense, but, I think I would like to look at it as a business venture.
Before I just hand over cash, I would like to see the "Business Model" first this time.
If anything, my last long post should have shown how little faith I have in what has happened over the years.
I'm not trying to "kick" the guys behind the science (as I know there are limits to it, especially when cash is short)
But, somewhere between the Science and the actual Applied Actions, something never worked out as planned, or at best
a band aid solution at the time.
There are too many user groups, to much for the ministry themselves I suspect to handle.
This problem has to go "way up" the ladder, and I don't trust them to do the right thing, because no matter how much we spend,
I think we will always be "out bid".
It's going to have to take someone with there hand on the wheel and the gas....who actually gives a S***.
Met any of those particular people lately:?
The ones who do care, and there are, don't control this vehicle of problems.
Ya, I know, I'm just bitchin now, not really apart of the solution at this point yet.
Cheers

[wideopenthrottle]

Once the roads are in the 4legged preds will use them....closing a road to 2legged preds does nothing to stop the 4 legged ones from using them...only wholesale deactivation (tearing up roads and planting trees on the roads too) would slow predictor access IMO

[j270wsm]

BUGLE.

I am not as old/experienced( I'm 35 in July) as some on this site but I remember how the elk valley was back in the 90's. Dad and I would go hunting and rarely see elk or hear bugles, this could be that dad never specifically targeted elk. When the 6pt season came in I thought it would make it even harder to find elk but I was wrong. 3-4yrs later we were seeing more elk( I know it was partially due to not having cow leh tags ) and it wasn't just cows we were seeing, it was small 3-5pts that a few years before would have been shot.

I personally don't buy into the " 5pts breaking cows is bad " mentality. How many small Bulls sneak in and breed cows when the herd bull is chasing off over Bulls or round up cows that are wandering off?

I only hunt hunt the elk valley from elkford north and I have seen a huge drop( 30-40%, possibly more) in the herd in this part of the valley and it has only been in the last 6yrs since the cow/calf tags have come out and the preds have got out of crazy.

I am by no means a bio but I do know what I've seen.
I love these debates, I'm always interested in others experience/knowledge.

joe

[GoatGuy]

http://yahatinda.biology.ualberta.ca/previous-research-projects/linking-predation-risk-and-forage-to-ungulate-population-dynamics-by-mark-hebblewhite-2/

[Bugle M In]

BUGLE.

I am not as old/experienced( I'm 35 in July) as some on this site but I remember how the elk valley was back in the 90's. Dad and I would go hunting and rarely see elk or hear bugles, this could be that dad never specifically targeted elk. When the 6pt season came in I thought it would make it even harder to find elk but I was wrong. 3-4yrs later we were seeing more elk( I know it was partially due to not having cow leh tags ) and it wasn't just cows we were seeing, it was small 3-5pts that a few years before would have been shot.

I personally don't buy into the " 5pts breaking cows is bad " mentality. How many small Bulls sneak in and breed cows when the herd bull is chasing off over Bulls or round up cows that are wandering off?

I only hunt hunt the elk valley from elkford north and I have seen a huge drop( 30-40%, possibly more) in the herd in this part of the valley and it has only been in the last 6yrs since the cow/calf tags have come out and the preds have got out of crazy.

I am by no means a bio but I do know what I've seen.
I love these debates, I'm always interested in others experience/knowledge.

joe

I here you!
I wish this was just another thread on the "Debate of 6 pt or Less" Situation right now.
At least it meant we had Elk.
I agree, there were more Elk showing up again after the 6pt Rule came into effect.
But, I think it had a lot to do with the Cow LEH Permits being dropped, as it was way to
obvious to me, just "how many Cows" began to be sighted once again.
I had tons of success in the 90's "Bugling" in bulls, and I think my rate of success ended up at 90%.
And all were 6pt except for 1 5pt.
But during that whole time, I rarely saw a Cow......rarely.
But I agree, after that, by around 2000, we were now hunting Bulls with a Harem once again.
Found out real quick, that Bugling was bad suddenly.
Things were still good, and WT were all over the place.
But that's when the Wolf sign showed up all over too.
And these past few years, I am calling in Gbear and Cats, and hardly seeing Elk at all.
Not only that, but not even sign from Summer Grazing (some great clear cuts where we were chasing Elk and they are still
long time away from not being "desirable" for Elk/WT))or Droppings.
So I agree, you are saying what I was seeing as well, than suddenly...boom....what happened?
And I agree with others, Elk have changed patterns, they are much higher up, on steeper slopes.
I can only assume to avoid Preds, but I not an Elk, so I don't why they are doing that now?
But, #'s are down, regardless, just not sure how bad it has really become.
I just hated seeing me or someone else drop a 6pt, who had a decent size harem, and than for the rest of the week,
I watched a 5pt court the Cows, whether he bread them or not, I can't say, but only hope that before the Season Started,
That the 6pt had some "fun".
Sorry for "Off Topic", as I know the situation is now "what do we do now, and what penalty are we as hunters going to face",
even though this is not, in my opinion, as a result from over hunting, but a much bigger multi faceted problem.
So, I hope that one day we are just debating 6pt,

[Bugle M In]

http://yahatinda.biology.ualberta.ca/previous-research-projects/linking-predation-risk-and-forage-to-ungulate-population-dynamics-by-mark-hebblewhite-2/

So, to be honest, I breezed thru that document (book!, as I wasn't going to google up all the "terminology" used in the report)
Only thing I wonder about is, this study was created inside a National Park.
I not sure what the policy is for Ranches in regards to dealing with Wolves if they are a problem.
I assume Wolves are "protected" inside the park, so the "human fear factor" is less, due to the fact they don't get shot at.
Yet, if I "deciphered" the report properly, to some degree, Wolves are in fact Avoiding Human Activity, especially at higher
human activity level areas, if it is possible for that particular wolf pack.(please correct me if I am wrong).
So, if I am right on this point, can you imagine how much more the level of avoidance would increase for wolves outside of a protected area.
That would seem to make sense to me (but, I am saying this, assuming I have interpreted the report properly?)
And also, is why Elk are not Migrating, as they are finding 'protection" closer to high levels of Human Activity (correct?)
Sorry, reading is not my 1st passion in life, and some of these reports get a little over involved for us "average folk":grin:
Thanks for the report by the way, I will look into it harder, when my brain feels up to it!

[GoatGuy]

So, to be honest, I breezed thru that document (book!, as I wasn't going to google up all the "terminology" used in the report)
Only thing I wonder about is, this study was created inside a National Park.
I not sure what the policy is for Ranches in regards to dealing with Wolves if they are a problem.
I assume Wolves are "protected" inside the park, so the "human fear factor" is less, due to the fact they don't get shot at.
Yet, I "deciphered" the report properly, to some degree, Wolves are in fact Avoiding Human Activity, especially at higher
human activity level areas, if it is possible for that particular wolf pack.(please correct me if I am wrong).
So, if I am right on this point, can you imagine how much more the level of avoidance would increase for wolves outside of a protected area.
That would seem to make sense to me (but, I am saying this, assuming I have interpreted the report properly?)
And also, is why Elk are not Migrating, as they are finding 'protection" closer to high levels of Human Activity (correct?)
Sorry, reading is not my 1st passion in life, and some of these reports get a little over involved for us "average folk":grin:
Thanks for the report by the way, I will look into it harder, when my brain feels up to it!
Yes, wolves avoid people, so elk seem to want to stick close to people.

Long-run elk population decline in those which migrate into the park. Elk are now changing and migrating east (towards more people), or sticking around the ranch in the summer despite the fact range quality is lower - this is apparently to avoid predators.

Read the links on the right hand side - will give a good idea of what's going on.

[Bugle M In]

Yes, wolves avoid people, so elk seem to want to stick close to people.

Long-run elk population decline in those which migrate into the park. Elk are now changing and migrating east (towards more people), or sticking around the ranch in the summer despite the fact range quality is lower - this is apparently to avoid predators.

Read the links on the right hand side - will give a good idea of what's going on.

Thanks GG,

So, if Ranchers in the EK are removing Wolves so as to protect their cattle for example,
(and I don't know if they are or how much, but lets say they are for a second)
Than in one way, they are actually creating a problem for themselves, as Elk are using their area as a
"wolf free Sanctuary" in a way.....possible cause and effect?
Thus the ZoneX situation.....to some degree anyways, not saying that it is it in a nutshell.
Obviously the Elk are avoiding Wolves in the High/Back Country also.

So, wouldn't one "Solution" be, to get Elk to start Migrating back to Traditional Grounds, where as the Report states,
"feed is better" for them, is to, Actually get back into the High Country, and I assume Road Closure Areas,
and have those Wolves culled, and the only way to efficiently do it, and safely, is with Heli and a Rifle, but,
something the "Ministry" has to do, as hunters don't have the access at times, and trapping isn't really working,
at least not on the level we need right now.

[GoatGuy]

Thanks GG,

So, if Ranchers in the EK are removing Wolves so as to protect their cattle for example,
(and I don't know if they are or how much, but lets say they are for a second)
Than in one way, they are actually creating a problem for themselves, as Elk are using their area as a
"wolf free Sanctuary" in a way.....possible cause and effect?
Thus the ZoneX situation.....to some degree anyways, not saying that it is it in a nutshell.
Obviously the Elk are avoiding Wolves in the High/Back Country also.

So, wouldn't one "Solution" be, to get Elk to start Migrating back to Traditional Grounds, where as the Report states,
"feed is better" for them, is to, Actually get back into the High Country, and I assume Road Closure Areas,
and have those Wolves culled, and the only way to efficiently do it, and safely, is with Heli and a Rifle, but,
something the "Ministry" has to do, as hunters don't have the access at times, and trapping isn't really working,
at least not on the level we need right now.

Managing predators, like we do other wildlife, seems to make sense.

Here's a magazine article from AB Outdoorsmen, pretty straightforward.

http://yahatinda.biology.ualberta.ca/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2013/11/2013-AB-Outdoorsmen-Article3.pdf

[Spy]

I think the Gov has to change the rules when it comes to hunting/culling wolves. Allow hunters to shoot out of helicopters, Allow hunters to target wolves at night with the appropriate lights ect, allow hunters to shoot from vehicles at night and day. And NO bag limits.
I have a buddy in Africa that hunts Jackal and is commissioned by farmers to cull them, all culls are done at night with special lights, his truck is set up with shooting chair and all the bells and whistles and he averages 10 to 15 kills a night. If we want to get serious about predator control we need the rules changed, maybe the BCWF can help us get this done.

[Bugle M In]

On the Subject of "Lack of Funds/Money"
Where is the Money from our Tags, that We (Hunters) our purchasing yearly going?
I know in the past, a small amount went to some sort of "Habitat Fund".
If that is still the case, and the remaining amount of Our Tag money, is going to "General Revenue",
Maybe it is "Time for a Change" to that.
If I understand correctly, from watching Brian Chan, the BC Freshwater Society has made changes to where the
"freshwater fishing license money" goes.(or at least they made it happen)
"All Money" now goes back to Freshwater Habitat Preservation, whether it be improving lakes ie PH levels etc,
and to Re-Stocking Lakes annually.

If I am correct, and not all our tag money is going into "Habitat Preservation" which I assume could include financing a lot
of different projects ie. Culling Wolves/winter habitat etc,

Than maybe it's time to get on the Government and force a "Change" and get that money where it Really belongs and where
it is really needed.....it's time to make that happen, assuming it isn't happening yet.

[Spy]

On the Subject of "Lack of Funds/Money"
Where is the Money from our Tags, that We (Hunters) our purchasing yearly going?
I know in the past, a small amount went to some sort of "Habitat Fund".
If that is still the case, and the remaining amount of Our Tag money, is going to "General Revenue",
Maybe it is "Time for a Change" to that.
If I understand correctly, from watching Brian Chan, the BC Freshwater Society has made changes to where the
"freshwater fishing license money" goes.(or at least they made it happen)
"All Money" now goes back to Freshwater Habitat Preservation, whether it be improving lakes ie PH levels etc,
and to Re-Stocking Lakes annually.

If I am correct, and not all our tag money is going into "Habitat Preservation" which I assume could include financing a lot
of different projects ie. Culling Wolves/winter habitat etc,

Than maybe it's time to get on the Government and force a "Change" and get that money where it Really belongs and where
it is really needed.....it's time to make that happen, assuming it isn't happening yet.

Good post and I think this is a big start, to making shit happen! Should we start our own group, approach our clubs or the BCWF, where do we start?

[GoatGuy]

On the Subject of "Lack of Funds/Money"
Where is the Money from our Tags, that We (Hunters) our purchasing yearly going?
I know in the past, a small amount went to some sort of "Habitat Fund".
If that is still the case, and the remaining amount of Our Tag money, is going to "General Revenue",
Maybe it is "Time for a Change" to that.
If I understand correctly, from watching Brian Chan, the BC Freshwater Society has made changes to where the
"freshwater fishing license money" goes.(or at least they made it happen)
"All Money" now goes back to Freshwater Habitat Preservation, whether it be improving lakes ie PH levels etc,
and to Re-Stocking Lakes annually.

If I am correct, and not all our tag money is going into "Habitat Preservation" which I assume could include financing a lot
of different projects ie. Culling Wolves/winter habitat etc,

Than maybe it's time to get on the Government and force a "Change" and get that money where it Really belongs and where
it is really needed.....it's time to make that happen, assuming it isn't happening yet.
bang on, something the BCWF has been advocating for in a major way.

If anyone wants to help wildlife, this is where it all starts.

[Bugle M In]

So, how did the Freshwater Society convince the Provincial Government to get it to happen for them?
Who was the "good sweet talker" in that deal?
Do we have to set up a Petition?
(as I don't have clue on those matter)
But if a Petition is need, I would suggest "Petition Forms" be set up and in place at Every Local Gun/Hunting Shop
in the Province, and it would need to happen before We (hunters) all head out to go hunting....Pre Season.
Best time to catch all Hunters Signatures IMO, as they have to stop into the local shop to buy tags,
no extra effort to sign a Petition at that point.
And, I am not sure, but aren't tags going to be sold "Online" soon or is it happening already.
Because if that is the Case, We need to get on this.
Local Gun Clubs could make sure every local shop in town has a Petition Form thru out the Province.
BCWF would probably be the best choice to "Organize" these Petitions, and help Contact every Local Gun/Hunting Club.
And if the Clubs don't exist in a town, maybe BCWF could directly inform all Dealers of Hunting Licencse.
Anyways, I am ready to Sign, if it is organized, ASAP, if that is the 1st step in approaching the Provincial Government.
Maybe others know what it would take, to atleast approach and meet with the government to get it to "Happen".
All Money From Annual Hunting Tags, plus Species Tag Money and All LEH Money.
It paid by us, the user group, and should be allocated to the wildlife it belongs to.
The person driving over the "Toll Bridge" can pay for the Bridge.
Our Money should be paying to Preserve the Ecology/Wildlife of BC.

[wideopenthrottle]

On the Subject of "Lack of Funds/Money"
Where is the Money from our Tags, that We (Hunters) our purchasing yearly going?
I know in the past, a small amount went to some sort of "Habitat Fund".
If that is still the case, and the remaining amount of Our Tag money, is going to "General Revenue",
Maybe it is "Time for a Change" to that.
If I understand correctly, from watching Brian Chan, the BC Freshwater Society has made changes to where the
"freshwater fishing license money" goes.(or at least they made it happen)
"All Money" now goes back to Freshwater Habitat Preservation, whether it be improving lakes ie PH levels etc,
and to Re-Stocking Lakes annually.

If I am correct, and not all our tag money is going into "Habitat Preservation" which I assume could include financing a lot
of different projects ie. Culling Wolves/winter habitat etc,

Than maybe it's time to get on the Government and force a "Change" and get that money where it Really belongs and where
it is really needed.....it's time to make that happen, assuming it isn't happening yet.

x2 on that

[drakfero]

Well guys , BCWF should be working for us long time ago. Same as we support them they should push on the government to help us out.
Who is main BIO for BCs government? Like i hear from old hunters there was a plenty and now we dont have much. Loosing cariboo , moose , elk , mule..
Leaving more bears , wolfs and cougars.
I dont know what is your opinion for stocking rainbow trout but in my opinion stocking unreproductive fish unmarked in the lakes is killing old populations and subspecies especially steelheads.

So I would not count on government to help us , its only you/us there hunting , so lets try to take a bear , wolf and cougar each of us and may be we ll see the difference.

[Spy]

Well guys , BCWF should be working for us long time ago. Same as we support them they should push on the government to help us out.
Who is main BIO for BCs government? Like i hear from old hunters there was a plenty and now we dont have much. Loosing cariboo , moose , elk , mule..
Leaving more bears , wolfs and cougars.
I dont know what is your opinion for stocking rainbow trout but in my opinion stocking unreproductive fish unmarked in the lakes is killing old populations and subspecies especially steelheads.

So I would not count on government to help us , its only you/us there hunting , so lets try to take a bear , wolf and cougar each of us and may be we ll see the difference.
I think the BCWF is working on this, unfortunately the wheels and cogs in the Gov turn really slowly. There are regional "bios" maybe we as hunters should find out who they are and call them out on thier decisions. I don't know what the answers are but we better get on it as there is an election coming up so let's put pressure on the Libs to make changes.

[Fisher-Dude]

I think the BCWF is working on this, unfortunately the wheels and cogs in the Gov turn really slowly. There are regional "bios" maybe we as hunters should find out who they are and call them out on thier decisions. I don't know what the answers are but we better get on it as there is an election coming up so let's put pressure on the Libs to make changes.

Don't direct your anger at our bios. They do the best they can with what they have.

If I gave you 25¢ and told you to go buy dinner, how much dinner would you be able to buy?

[Spy]

Don't direct your anger at our bios. They do the best they can with what they have.

If I gave you 25¢ and told you to go buy dinner, how much dinner would you be able to buy?
No anger here just trying to make sense of the lack of wolf & Grizz management, no Grizz LEH tags in the Koots when we all know the Grizz pop is way up there, many attacks, many trail cam pics of different bears, but still no tags??? The Bios know this so who should we call on this, maybe its political I don't know? Does the BCWF?

[Bugle M In]

I wouldn't place anger on Bios either, although I might project my Displeasure to the one who has made some of these
decisions on opening/closures/restrictions etc over the past 20 years.
Whomever He/She or They were, didn't get it right at times.
Bios can only report, but someone up there is the one "Signing Off" on these decisions.
That's the one who need to lose their job.
The Bios need better "funding".

[Spy]

I wouldn't place anger on Bios either, although I might project my Displeasure to the one who has made some of these
decisions on opening/closures/restrictions etc over the past 20 years.
Whomever He/She or They were, didn't get it right at times.
Bios can only report, but someone up there is the one "Signing Off" on these decisions.
That's the one who need to lose their job.
The Bios need better "funding".
What if he or she loves Grizzly Bears and does not want to see them hunted?

[J_T]

No anger here just trying to make sense of the lack of wolf & Grizz management, no Grizz LEH tags in the Koots when we all know the Grizz pop is way up there, many attacks, many trail cam pics of different bears, but still no tags??? The Bios know this so who should we call on this, maybe its political I don't know? Does the BCWF?
FD is correct. (hey, that's twice in this thread we've agreed) The biologists work hard and generally see the big picture. Their heart and passion is in the right place. But this topic, going from a topic of low elk numbers to the bigger picture of habitat and wildlife management is a complex situation (evidenced by the diverse opinions).

As a starting point, good wildlife management requires money. Look at other jurisdictions, they know almost to the animal, how many wolves they have, or how many elk they have. They may have more bodies to do the work, more focus on what works in capturing information, more minions, more analytics. They can take the data, determine desired population numbers, carry out the analysis of what steps get them there. I think all resident hunters, those affiliated to the BCWF, those that are trappers, hound hunters, bowhunters, those that are of other organizations unaffiliated, generally agree on working together and what it might take. This thread has been all over the place. And I while many reflect what appears to be controversial opinions, I think generally everyone can find something to agree on. We probably need to stop managing by harvest trends and social issues, and get some real population data, assess carrying capacity, balance predator prey relationships, and set some objectives.

In terms of complexity of decisions, we can see, a scientific group gathering data, a political group analyzing the political/social impacts of difficult decisions, and an overarching academic group involved in making recommendations. While residents agree in a science based approach to management, residents are having a hard time agreeing with some of the studies that are rendering the data being used for decisions and targets. A good example is the most recent grizzly bear study which summarized that numbers are on a decline. Most resident hunters find the recent results difficult to believe. So, they have questioned the data and meetings are occurring to come to some understanding about that data, and other observations. A question for all then is how do we get to the place, where everyone involved can believe in the information being shared, and being used to make decisions? Hearsay, is probably not the best data to use.

[Spy]

Most resident hunters find the recent results difficult to believe. So, they have questioned the data and meetings are occurring to come to some understanding about that data, and other observations. A question for all then is how do we get to the place, where everyone involved can believe in the information being shared, and being used to make decisions? Hearsay, is probably not the best data to use.

This is what Im getting at ^^^^ we all have seen the wolves and the effect they have on elk numbers, we have all seen the pics of Grizz on trail cams some of us have even had the pleasure of having two silver tips under our tree stands while we are in it! The attacks last year on hunters were numerous, why can't the bios see what we are? Why are there no LEH tags available for Grizz? Im not trying to be a smart ass just asking a question.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

This is what Im getting at ^^^^ we all have seen the wolves and the effect they have on elk numbers, we have all seen the pics of Grizz on trail cams some of us have even had the pleasure of having two silver tips under our tree stands while we are in it! The attacks last year on hunters were numerous, why can't the bios see what we are? Why are there no LEH tags available for Grizz? Im not trying to be a smart ass just asking a question.

Bear attacks generally go up during dry years...and last year was one of the driest/ hottest on record

[drakfero]

This is what Im getting at ^^^^ we all have seen the wolves and the effect they have on elk numbers, we have all seen the pics of Grizz on trail cams some of us have even had the pleasure of having two silver tips under our tree stands while we are in it! The attacks last year on hunters were numerous, why can't the bios see what we are? Why are there no LEH tags available for Grizz? Im not trying to be a smart ass just asking a question.


Agree , man must be blind not see whats going on. If you see more predators than ungulates when hunting then something is wrong..
Why there are no Grizzly permits for fall down south??? All bears going to farms or close to people would see your fireplace :)

[Fisher-Dude]

With a lack of funding to get really solid data, we manage game very conservatively, especially when it's something as slowly reproducing as grizzly bears.

Overharvesting g-bears would take a long time to correct, maybe a decade or more. Overharvesting whitetails takes about a year, or at most two years to correct.

We're basically incapable of overharvesting whitetails (see US states for examples), but with a small population that is very sensitive to harvest like g-bears, we can have an impact.

[HarryToolips]

So, how did the Freshwater Society convince the Provincial Government to get it to happen for them?
Who was the "good sweet talker" in that deal?
Do we have to set up a Petition?
(as I don't have clue on those matter)
But if a Petition is need, I would suggest "Petition Forms" be set up and in place at Every Local Gun/Hunting Shop
in the Province, and it would need to happen before We (hunters) all head out to go hunting....Pre Season.
Best time to catch all Hunters Signatures IMO, as they have to stop into the local shop to buy tags,
no extra effort to sign a Petition at that point.
And, I am not sure, but aren't tags going to be sold "Online" soon or is it happening already.
Because if that is the Case, We need to get on this.
Local Gun Clubs could make sure every local shop in town has a Petition Form thru out the Province.
BCWF would probably be the best choice to "Organize" these Petitions, and help Contact every Local Gun/Hunting Club.
And if the Clubs don't exist in a town, maybe BCWF could directly inform all Dealers of Hunting Licencse.
Anyways, I am ready to Sign, if it is organized, ASAP, if that is the 1st step in approaching the Provincial Government.
Maybe others know what it would take, to atleast approach and meet with the government to get it to "Happen".
All Money From Annual Hunting Tags, plus Species Tag Money and All LEH Money.
It paid by us, the user group, and should be allocated to the wildlife it belongs to.
The person driving over the "Toll Bridge" can pay for the Bridge.
Our Money should be paying to Preserve the Ecology/Wildlife of BC.
I'm all for it...so who has the knowledge on how to start this petition thing??? IMO, we should be starting another donation/fund that goes all toward elk habitat creation and aerial counts, starting with region 4..I was in Wholesale sports the other day, the cashier asked me if I wanted to donate some $$$ to a wildlife preservation fund, though she didn't know what specifically it went to within that broad field...how could we start a donation that is specific to the elk in region 4, starting with the elk trench, that outdoor stores could ask all people who are purchasing something at their store if they want to donate??? And at least people would know exactly what they're donating to, I and many others Im sure would donate to it, I bet we could raise a decent amount of $$$..

[two-feet]

Im far from region 4, and have only the most basic knowledge on elk. So maybe a dim question, but does the RMEF not operate in this area? Could they not be involved?

[Bugle M In]

Firstly, does somebody here know, "how much of each dollar spent on tags" goes to the habitat fund?
Or does somebody know "what the percentage is from all the tags" go to General Revenue?
That is the 1st question we should all have knowledge of.
What is the "Total Amount of Dollars Spent to buy Hunting, Species and LEH Tags"?
(I am NOT talking about how much money in general is generated do to hunting, economically wise)
Lets be better informed on this.... first.

After we know that, we can see if an "extra fund" is needed or even "worth the hassle" to pursue.
I know people are concerned, but, concern falls short if it means opening up the checkbook for most.

The best pursuit is to get all this money we pay in tags, applied to Wildlife, not a general government slush fund.

We need to go after the Liberals to have that done.
We can tell them they can get all the money they would lose from doing this back, from all the money
they will be making from their great LNG Venture....lol.

Which leads into the next point.
Christy Clark is now stuck with a "LNG Fiasco" (remember the FastCat Ferry Fiasco for the NDP).
Elections are around the Corner, and I am guessing, she won't be running, due to the failure of LNG for now or anytime soon.
Even if she does, what Platform does she and the Liberals have to stand on or to show for?
I live in Vancouver, I have seen the Housing Problem for people here, and it's going to be a Big Part of the upcoming Elections.
No LNG for them to stand behind to show us, so what are they going to do?
And if other parties want to Win, they are going to Claim to make Big Changes in the way Realty is purchased,IMO.
I don't think the Libs want to go that far, as they would be "screwing their developer buddies potentially, as well as their
Asian clientele, IMO.
People in the LM aren't happy, and are worried about their future home ownership, so many might jump the Liberal Ship,
in hopes of someone else making housing once again somewhat affordable.
So, the Liberals are going to be looking for Votes this time, from as many different user groups as possible I suspect.

So maybe this is the Best Time Ever, for these Hunting License Money to be completely allocated to Wildlife, just like the
Freshwater Fishing money.
They may actually want to do it, in hopes of getting Our Vote, especially when they might try to want to make more
Voters from the Interior Happy for a change, as they will need their vote this time around.

And if they wish to Brush Us Off, maybe another Party will use in Their Platform to get our votes.
Other Parties would be Absolutely Stupid not to jump on this Opportunity this time around, and I hope someone from all these
Parties hear about it.

As for BCWF, I haven't heard them "Chime In" to this thread and Discussion, and I am starting to wonder why?
Is going to be" Our hands are Tied" again, just like when it came to the new GO Allocation Policy last year?
I would think this time, because it "Concerns the well being of Wildlife", that they may want to start getting involved in this
thread.
I was already upset with them last year, and they knew it! (I even got a few private PM's form them after me being somewhat
pissed at them not really being apart of "Hunters", just like the WSS said, they are only there in regards of the Sheep.

So okay, I accept WSS is there for the Sheep (I don't have a choice).
And basically, in a nutshell, BCWF, is there for the Wildlife/Ecology Aspect.(not truly the hunters voice like we assume)
So, if "This Situation", and getting all money allocated from hunting tags to not go into general revenue, and all goes back into
habitat/wildlife improvement, is also not in their "Wheel House" than I give up with them.
I wasn't happy then, and if I am let down again, than as I have stated before....
We Hunters in BC, may want to consider a different Association to support, meaning creating a New Association just for
Resident BC Hunters, because, we really don't have a Voice, and I have felt that way for a long time, and stopped long ago
supporting BCWF, and I know that will insight some rage from some members, and that is not my intention, as I know there
are people in the BCWF who put in a great deal of time to try and do good stuff, but in my opinion, it's not the Hunters Voice.
(here come the pm's again, and the verbal retaliation in post to follow)
But, before I get blasted....
I would join as a member (BCWF) if they can show me this time, that they have the ability to give it "Their Best" right now,
to get what I have said above, rolling, and get it done.
BCWF, tell us what needs to happen, to get pressure on the Government.
Do we need a Petition Started...is that the first step??....if not....what is???

[Bugle M In]

off topic slightly, what ever happened to member 6616 (I think that was is call name? from Golden if I recall right?)
I always thought he was an "Elk Interested" member, and remember when I join this forum, he always had some input.
Haven't seen/heard from him in a long time, and thought this topic would have been of interest to him?

[wideopenthrottle]

No anger here just trying to make sense of the lack of wolf & Grizz management, no Grizz LEH tags in the Koots when we all know the Grizz pop is way up there, many attacks, many trail cam pics of different bears, but still no tags??? The Bios know this so who should we call on this, maybe its political I don't know? Does the BCWF?
That was the one word answer i got when asking a CO last year about "why with all the increases in g-bear is there no fall LEH on griz up near Cranbrooke "politics" was all he said as he nodded in acknowledging the huge numbers

[Fisher-Dude]

off topic slightly, what ever happened to member 6616 (I think that was is call name? from Golden if I recall right?)
I always thought he was an "Elk Interested" member, and remember when I join this forum, he always had some input.
Haven't seen/heard from him in a long time, and thought this topic would have been of interest to him?

Andy passed away.

He would be telling you what the BCWF members on here are telling you.

[Bugle M In]

Andy passed away.

He would be telling you what the BCWF members on here are telling you.

Ah shit....sorry to hear that, I enjoyed what he had to say.
I know he felt the High LEH Cow Tags back in the 80's and early 90's was a big mistake as well.

[HarryToolips]

I agree with what your saying Bugle with getting the Govt to put ALL $$$ from tags and hunting back into hunting, but how do we start to make this happen??? Feel free to PM me if I can help, I can do emails etc to Christie, though I doubt that will do much..But to deal with this specific problem NOW, should we not start a donation fund specifically for the elk in Region 4, primarily the trench??

[Xenomorph]

I agree with what your saying Bugle with getting the Govt to put ALL $$$ from tags and hunting back into hunting, but how do we start to make this happen??? Feel free to PM me if I can help, I can do emails etc to Christie, though I doubt that will do much..But to deal with this specific problem NOW, should we not start a donation fund specifically for the elk in Region 4, primarily the trench??

Beginning of the year I buy my tags, no matter if I'll go hunting or not. This year I started Cougar x2, Bear x2, Deer x3, Elk, Goat
I don't really care if I end up going and harvesting something, my idea was: I'd like to try this, and here's the money part of conservation.

If money from tags don't go to conservation efforts, then that's a shame. I won't stop buying them, because at least increases the percentage allotment, but that's really a shame.

[drakfero]

Guys , what more money you want to give?
200K active huters
4 LEH cards each guy 5.6M $ here
Permit and 4 ungulates tags 23M $ here
Cca 30 mil $$$ each year for what??? Hunting wolfs????!!!!

And i dont wanna know whats coming form forestry and mining..

[Whonnock Boy]

bang on, something the BCWF has been advocating for in a major way.

If anyone wants to help wildlife, this is where it all starts.

Goat answered your question here ^^^^, and it doesn't get much closer to the source than him.




As for BCWF, I haven't heard them "Chime In" to this thread and Discussion, and I am starting to wonder why?


105,000 licenses hunters.


200K active huters

[Bugle M In]

Goat answered your question here ^^^^, and it doesn't get much closer to the source than him.



105,000 licenses hunters.

Fair enough, could have been 105,002:razz:
I dropped out way back when, can't even remember.
My dad was devoted until just a couple years ago, he doesn't bother either anymore.
But, I would like to be part of some organization....really I do at this point, but I want to see who is gonna move or not
move on this opportunity, that I believe is being "handed" to us now.
Tick tock, tick tock.....

[Bugle M In]

Beginning of the year I buy my tags, no matter if I'll go hunting or not. This year I started Cougar x2, Bear x2, Deer x3, Elk, Goat
I don't really care if I end up going and harvesting something, my idea was: I'd like to try this, and here's the money part of conservation.

If money from tags don't go to conservation efforts, then that's a shame. I won't stop buying them, because at least increases the percentage allotment, but that's really a shame.

Never said to stop buying, nor did anyone else, I bought a bear tag last season too, the 1st time ever.
Just not sure what to do with meat, as no one else in the party wants any, I don't have space for a freezer here in the hood.
The problem as you state, "is a shame", is putting it lightly.
It's down right wrong, especially what's going on now.

[hunter1947]

I bought a bear tag late last year first one in many years I have a bear tag now and will use it on a bear even if I don't like bear meat all helps to control predators I was going up to check one of my trail cams a few days ago and saw 3 wolfs run across the old road in front of me they sure are fast gone in a few seconds

[happyhunter]

I bought a bear tag late last year first one in many years I have a bear tag now and will use it on a bear even if I don't like bear meat all helps to control predators I was going up to check one of my trail cams a few days ago and saw 3 wolfs run across the old road in front of me they sure are fast gone in a few seconds

They sure are! A guys gotta have that rifle handy and be alert day after day after day. Sadly that's not very realistic and so many get away!

[Husky7mm]

I bought a bear tag late last year first one in many years I have a bear tag now and will use it on a bear even if I don't like bear meat all helps to control predators I was going up to check one of my trail cams a few days ago and saw 3 wolfs run across the old road in front of me they sure are fast gone in a few seconds

What you have to do in that senerio is note their direction of travel and get up to the next road or trail and sit and wait. Its good to know the area, as I am sure you do. Wolves like to travel the roads just as much as people. The last wolf that ran across the road in front of me in BC took a dirt nap. I jumped off the Atv and followed him through the bush. I could here the branches snapping in front of me. It was thick, and I was not sure if I was gaining or loosing as I dont think he expected me to follow. I remembered a switch back road above and raced up there asap. Less than a minute later he walked out on the road looking back down as to watch his back trail. Boom!
I have seen bears do the same thing. Get the general direction of travel and intercept.

[Fisher-Dude]

I agree with what your saying Bugle with getting the Govt to put ALL $$$ from tags and hunting back into hunting, but how do we start to make this happen??? Feel free to PM me if I can help, I can do emails etc to Christie, though I doubt that will do much..But to deal with this specific problem NOW, should we not start a donation fund specifically for the elk in Region 4, primarily the trench??

Already have the wheels in motion.

You need to get to a few more meetings! ;)

[Spy]

What you have to do in that senerio is note their direction of travel and get up to the next road or trail and sit and wait. Its good to know the area, as I am sure you do. Wolves like to travel the roads just as much as people. The last wolf that ran across the road in front of me in BC took a dirt nap. I jumped off the Atv and followed him through the bush. I could here the branches snapping in front of me. It was thick, and I was not sure if I was gaining or loosing as I dont think he expected me to follow. I remembered a switch back road above and raced up there asap. Less than a minute later he walked out on the road looking back down as to watch his back trail. Boom!
I have seen bears do the same thing. Get the general direction of travel and intercept.
Good tip thanks :-)

[steveo]

They sure are! A guys gotta have that rifle handy and be alert day after day after day. Sadly that's not very realistic and so many get away!
And nobody wants to shoot someones dog, very unnatural for the average hunter to bail out of the truck and shoot a critter that looks nothing like an ungulate and similar to their own pet.

[drakfero]

Speaking of grizzlies..

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/another-alberta-bear-attack-1.3688542

[hunter1947]

What you have to do in that senerio is note their direction of travel and get up to the next road or trail and sit and wait. Its good to know the area, as I am sure you do. Wolves like to travel the roads just as much as people. The last wolf that ran across the road in front of me in BC took a dirt nap. I jumped off the Atv and followed him through the bush. I could here the branches snapping in front of me. It was thick, and I was not sure if I was gaining or loosing as I dont think he expected me to follow. I remembered a switch back road above and raced up there asap. Less than a minute later he walked out on the road looking back down as to watch his back trail. Boom!
I have seen bears do the same thing. Get the general direction of travel and intercept.

Its real thick where I saw them wolves the other day and yes you are right the wolves travel roadways and I have had my trapper papers now for 20 years if I could trap within the area I hunt I would be setting up leg holds beside some big rocks beside the road as for some wolf scats near the leg hold..

[Husky7mm]

And nobody wants to shoot someones dog, very unnatural for the average hunter to bail out of the truck and shoot a critter that looks nothing like an ungulate and similar to their own pet.

Thats how you get them rather than just see them. I have never thought a wolf looked like someones dog. Anyways you have to be prepaired and have quick reaction time. And remember folks , NO TAG REQUIRED!

[happyhunter]

Saw a wolf today (good timing for this thread!) It was just a young one and he did pause for a bit but unfortunately I did not have my rifle. This was near pemberton but all my other sightings have been in east Kootenays.

People say wolves are elusive and scared of humans. While this may be true historically I feel that today's wolves are becoming bolder. There haven't been this many in BC in 100 years and I'm sure human and wolf encounters are going to become more and more common. I've had numerous sightings now, had them howl at me during the day and have seen their tracks close to my truck and snowmobile.

Its going to get worse before it gets better unless government will step up and do something. I won't hold my breath

[HarryToolips]

Already have the wheels in motion.

You need to get to a few more meetings! ;)

Wicked work, I would love to if my wife didn't work those nights..lemme know if I can help..

[Bugle M In]

Already have the wheels in motion.

You need to get to a few more meetings! ;)

Would you be able to share with us a few details on what is in motion?
A few brief details, as for me, getting to a meeting is not that easy these days.

[Fisher-Dude]

Would you be able to share with us a few details on what is in motion?
A few brief details, as for me, getting to a meeting is not that easy these days.

http://www.surreyleader.com/news/376128561.html?mobile=true

[Spy]

Great start, anyone following up this was in April :-) Lets push this the election is coming up, It would be great if it could be "approved" before the election ;-)
B.C. wildlife management overhaul comingBy TOM FLETCHER (tfletcher@blackpress.ca?subject=BC%20Local%20News %20-%20B.C.%20wildlife%20management%20overhaul%20comin g)
April 18, 2016 · 3:14 PM







http://media.bclocalnews.com/images/share_3.png Share (http://www.addthis.com/bookmark.php)


http://media.bclocalnews.com/images/92961BCLN2007Mooseflnro7web.jpg (http://www.surreyleader.com/news/376128561.html?mobile=true#)Moose are the most popular target for B.C. resident hunters, with tags restricted by regional lotteries in parts of the province as populations have declined. / B.C. GOVERNMENT


The B.C. government is considering putting revenues from hunting licences and tags into a dedicated fund for wildlife management, Forests Minister Steve Thomson says.
A similar shift was made with fishing licence revenue last year to boost the budget for the Freshwater Fisheries Society of B.C. by $3 million a year for its lake stocking program. The province is in discussions with the B.C. Wildlife Federation and others to do something similar, Thomson told Black Press in an interview.
The ministry has expanded its multi-year study of declining moose populations (http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/management-issues/docs/provincial_framework_for_moose_management_bc.pdf) into a broader modernization of wildlife management, with the funding increase on the table.
"We have Al Gorley, the former chair of the Forest Practices Board, engaged with the groups currently, both on a moose population enhancement program but also engaging in discussion around modernizing wildlife management going forward," Thomson said. "[That] includes a discussion around how we would potentially see those licensing revenues move to a model where they would have more active say and management in the use of those resources."
Thomson revealed the plan after Kootenay West NDP MLA Katrine Conroy called for more support for wildlife management in the B.C. legislature last week. She presented a private member's bill calling for a special purpose account to support wildlife management.
"I've been talking to First Nations, resident hunters, guide outfitters, trappers, people who just recreate with wildlife, and everybody has expressed concern about the habitat of fish and wildlife in this province," Conroy said.
"Hunters who have been out there, they know for instance the mule deer in the Kootenays is disappearing, whereas they're told it's not. Up north it's moose in some areas."
Thomson acknowledged more needs to be done. He said an additional $12 million in his ministry budget this year is to support wildlife inventory and habitat improvement.
He said provincial hunting advisory teams are in place, and it is not necessary to legislate a permanent wildlife roundtable as suggested in Conroy's bill.
Hunting has seen a resurgence in popularity in recent years. Moose are the most popular big-game target for resident hunters, and some areas have restricted moose tags through regional lotteries used for less abundant species such as elk.

[kebes]

Great start, anyone following up this was in April :-) Lets push this the election is coming up, It would be great if it could be "approved" before the election ;-)
B.C. wildlife management overhaul coming

By TOM FLETCHER
April 18, 2016 · 3:14 PM







http://media.bclocalnews.com/images/share_3.png Share (http://www.addthis.com/bookmark.php)


http://media.bclocalnews.com/images/92961BCLN2007Mooseflnro7web.jpg (http://www.surreyleader.com/news/376128561.html?mobile=true#)Moose are the most popular target for B.C. resident hunters, with tags restricted by regional lotteries in parts of the province as populations have declined. / B.C. GOVERNMENT


The B.C. government is considering putting revenues from hunting licences and tags into a dedicated fund for wildlife management, Forests Minister Steve Thomson says.
A similar shift was made with fishing licence revenue last year to boost the budget for the Freshwater Fisheries Society of B.C. by $3 million a year for its lake stocking program. The province is in discussions with the B.C. Wildlife Federation and others to do something similar, Thomson told Black Press in an interview.
The ministry has expanded its multi-year study of declining moose populations (http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/management-issues/docs/provincial_framework_for_moose_management_bc.pdf) into a broader modernization of wildlife management, with the funding increase on the table.
"We have Al Gorley, the former chair of the Forest Practices Board, engaged with the groups currently, both on a moose population enhancement program but also engaging in discussion around modernizing wildlife management going forward," Thomson said. "[That] includes a discussion around how we would potentially see those licensing revenues move to a model where they would have more active say and management in the use of those resources."
Thomson revealed the plan after Kootenay West NDP MLA Katrine Conroy called for more support for wildlife management in the B.C. legislature last week. She presented a private member's bill calling for a special purpose account to support wildlife management.
"I've been talking to First Nations, resident hunters, guide outfitters, trappers, people who just recreate with wildlife, and everybody has expressed concern about the habitat of fish and wildlife in this province," Conroy said.
"Hunters who have been out there, they know for instance the mule deer in the Kootenays is disappearing, whereas they're told it's not. Up north it's moose in some areas."
Thomson acknowledged more needs to be done. He said an additional $12 million in his ministry budget this year is to support wildlife inventory and habitat improvement.
He said provincial hunting advisory teams are in place, and it is not necessary to legislate a permanent wildlife roundtable as suggested in Conroy's bill.
Hunting has seen a resurgence in popularity in recent years. Moose are the most popular big-game target for resident hunters, and some areas have restricted moose tags through regional lotteries used for less abundant species such as elk.



Better late than never! Looks like the BCWF has been doing some good work :)

[Bugle M In]

Thanks for the link.
I hope it happens and makes a difference....good job

[kebes]

Thanks for the link.
I hope it happens and makes a difference....good job

I would imagine it would make a pretty significant difference.... 80,000 hunters buying just a license and deer tags would see roughly 5 million towards wildlife enhancement! If it all went towards that purpose of course.

[Seeadler]

Hunters in British Columbia's East Kootenay region are warning of what they say is a dramatic drop in the number of elk in the southeastern corner of the province.
The president of the East Kootenay Hunters Association, Larry Hall, says the province must do more to protect elk and moose.
He says elk populations, in particular, have declined by almost 75 per cent in less than 50 years.
Hall does not support a ban on hunting, saying hunters are very conscious of the problem and don't believe a ban would help replenish stocks.
Instead, he calls on Cranbrook-area hunters to join a club to add clout to organizations demanding change.
Hall says elk populations have fallen steadily over several decades.
"We've had as much as 30,000 elk in the East Kootenay and now we are down to 7,500 to 8,000 elk. We're down to about a quarter of the elk population that we had 40 and 50 years ago," he says.
The East Kootenay Hunters Association is a member club of the regional wildlife assoc

50 years ago there were no wolves, there was a 10 month open season on grizzly, no bag limit and no closed season on black bears with baiting being routine for both bears, cougar weren't even listed in the regulations. And there were far less conifers, it is shocking to look at old air photos.

Everything has a effect, elk are bad for moose, mule deer, and sheep. Whitetails are bad for Muleys and moose. Conifers are only good for squirrels.

Nobody knows what the Ek is supposed to look like. It has been occupied by livestock for 250 years (horses for 250, cattle for 150). Fire ha largely been absent the last 50 years.

[BgBlkDg]

Major controlled burns would do wonders in the Kootenays, BUT, the "climate" gang will prevent that and IF an NDP government wins the next election, they WILL be in control, depend on it.

[rocksteady]

Major controlled burns would do wonders in the Kootenays, BUT, the "climate" gang will prevent that and IF an NDP government wins the next election, they WILL be in control, depend on it.

You are poorly informed there Dog...

In the East Koots we burn on average 2000 ha for ecosystem Restoration and have that much on the books right now for high elevation sheep/mule deer habitat creation... Just waiting for the right window to burn.

Castlegar area is starting to do more of that (Syringa Park, etc).

Boundary country has been getting into the burning game and have some really good projects on the books for the coming years.

Probably not burning as much as we should, but every little bit helps...

[HarryToolips]

Better late than never! Looks like the BCWF has been doing some good work :)
Yes, it's good to see...