Thoughts on the shortage of moose.

[Corb89]

I hope i don't create any haters by opening up this can o' worms

Hypothetically if the MOE created a plan to recover the moose population in troubled areas, but required hunter cooperation.
would you give up your moose hunt today, so that your kids. your grandkids, could hunt them tomorrow.

As i write this i can see one problem cropping up. maybe, it works so well. that they decide to apply it to other game (not in need of it)
im just curious as to everyones thoughts

[squamishhunter]

If all ethnicities stopped, then yes.

[boxhitch]

NO
genereally it's not the regulated hunting that causes a population problem. The antler restrictions in place already protect the prime breeding stock, leaving a narrow window of opportunity for us to partake in.
Giving that up may save a couple of bulls , but won't help cow numbers or increase calf survival. Target bull:cow ratios are very conservative in BC, cows are likely all getting the sperm needed.


maybe, it works so well. that they decide to apply it to other game (not in need of it)not a chance

[two-feet]

NO
genereally it's not the regulated hunting that causes a population problem. The antler restrictions in place already protect the prime breeding stock, leaving a narrow window of opportunity for us to partake in.
Giving that up may save a couple of bulls , but won't help cow numbers or increase calf survival. Target bull:cow ratios are very conservative in BC, cows are likely all getting the sperm needed.

not a chance

this is it. It is factors other than "regulated" hunting that have caused the decline in moose populations

[604ksmith]

I'd do anything to help out, depending on the severity.

I too doubt hunting is the largest cause of the issue, but I'd be willing to give that a try since that is likely the easiest. If that fails, then we take on the big hitters: land loss, excessive road creation, limited reclamation, ect...

[Xenomorph]

I'd do anything to help out, depending on the severity.

I too doubt hunting is the largest cause of the issue, but I'd be willing to give that a try since that is likely the easiest. If that fails, then we take on the big hitters: land loss, excessive road creation, limited reclamation, ect...


But wait, what are you calling moose depletion, the fact that your average roadie won't be able to bag a bull in the headlights of the truck? True enough, we have areas where the numbers are going down due to various factors, but lets face it, this comes across slightly like the "I've never been able to shoot a Sitka" talk that pops up, every now and then. Nope, you won't be able to if you're just driving around looking for one dumb one to stop.

Predator control, I bet that if every hunter here went out religiously and took out at least a couple, take your pick: bear, cougar, wolf, coyotes, you'd see the numbers creeping up. Of course, there will always be the average asshole that shoot at everything that moves, or the disgruntled few that will "not leave it for AHEM" ...but those are exceptions and won't essentially matter in the long run, if the vast majority of us do our job with the predator control.

[Glenny]

No I wouldn't. They are already making it difficult for us with the LEH instead of adressing the real problems. IE Cougars, wolves and poachers.

[ElliotMoose]

I would stop putting in for cows or stop utilizing the calf hunt, but would not discontinue moose hunting all together. As mentioned before regulated hunting makes up for a small percentage of annual mortality. Habitat loss, unregulated slaughter of cows/calves, predation by WOLVES and bears, collisions with trains & vehicles are all the top contributers to population decline. In order for the population to recover we need to maintain a higher calf survival rate and take care of the cows. The only way to do this as mentioned above is predator control. As long as the bull:cow ratio is in check, there is no harm in harvesting bulls. That is what we have point restrictions and LEH quotas in place for, to ensure that some of the breeding animals get a free pass each year to ensure all the cows are bred. What the province needs is a good dump of 1080 in the regions where wolf populations are out of hand, but unfortunately that will never happen again. Instead we'll just have to rely on the trappers of the province and the few dogs shot by hunters each year

[tigrr]

No I wouldn't. They are already making it difficult for us with the LEH instead of adressing the real problems. IE Cougars, wolves, grizzly and native poachers.

Fixed it for you. And if the natives keep shooting moose cows it kills 12 animals in a 10 year period. Stewarts of the land alright.

[horse280]

Road access is one of the keys in region 5.When the average joe or Josephine can drive their dodge caravan into the prime moose habitat areas,you are going to have issues..the amount of logging in some of these once prolific moose and deer areas has really let a predator whether he be on two legs or four see a big black thing from a long ways away! I would like to see areas where the timber harvest is done for the forseeable future closed off for a few years to let the natural cover grow up again,don't close them to hunting but make it hike in or horse in,,it would sure allow the natural process to do it's thing.

[Vladimir Poutine]

Stop all cow/calf draws for a specified period. In some MUs in Region 3 the # of bull LEH were reduced because of poor numbers. Hunters accept that. Last year in 3-39, there were only about 9 or so draws for bull in November. That has been consistent over the years. The numbers seen by in 3-39 have been poor over the last 4-5 years. Lots of wolf activity. There's no disputing that. So last year to our pleasure we saw a decent number of big bulls in 39. It's our home region and we spend a lot of time there. So what does MOE do this year? 20 LEH for bull in November. In one year they more than double the LEH. In 3-40 they tripled the # of bull draws about 3-4 years ago. Well it's working. Nary a one to be seen anymore in 40. It's madness. MOE is taking lessons from DFO in my opinion. Policy is made with a blindfold and a dartboard.

[wideopenthrottle]

all the heavily logged beetle kill areas need to have some measures to control access....as others have said, 1500lb 7-8 foot tall moose can't hide very well in cutovers...

[HarryToolips]

Fixed it for you. And if the natives keep shooting moose cows it kills 12 animals in a 10 year period. Stewarts of the land alright.
And this is one of the big problems, road-deactivation is a key tool, but costs $$$$...obviously we don't want all roads deactivated, but a percentage of spur roads would be great..hard for them to hunt out of their overloaded station wagon when they can't get past the churned up road..

[skibum]

would you give up your moose hunt today, so that your kids. your grandkids, could hunt them tomorrow.


Most hunters are conservationists. I don't think many would have a problem if the number of tags were reduced or eliminated to save the population.

[Drillbit]

Saw a calf moose the other day. Hadn't seen one in 3 or 4 years before that. That is the problem.

More people have to hunt bear, cougar and wolf. Never mind the eat what I kill crap, and kill something that is eating the moose calves.


Too many guys make a road trip for moose, but never make the trip to hunt predators where they go for moose.

[.308SLAYER]

Last week alone I seen 6 different moose during the week while out looking for another bear. One nice looking calf with it mom, 3 cows by themselves each time and a young bull moose still with its mom

[.308SLAYER]

Also been seeing quite a bit of wolf scat on the roads here in region 8 I've had two friends both get a wolf each this past winter one male one female not looking good lots of bears and wolves out there I agree with drillbit there needs to be more predator control well see numbers improve

[.308SLAYER]

http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r490/curtisfleming/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2016-06-23-10-21-55_zps0kuxuilj.png (http://s1168.photobucket.com/user/curtisfleming/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2016-06-23-10-21-55_zps0kuxuilj.png.html)

[steel_ram]

If indeed, reducing my opportunities would prove to help moose populations recovery I would accept it. We can all point fingers all day at others, it's our way. Of course every other resource user would be expected to cooperate in turn.

[Xenomorph]

http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r490/curtisfleming/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2016-06-23-10-21-55_zps0kuxuilj.png (http://s1168.photobucket.com/user/curtisfleming/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2016-06-23-10-21-55_zps0kuxuilj.png.html)


That's awesome, look at momma :)

[curt]

close cow season let them breed shut calf season let them grow.............the end

[scotty30-06]

Would be nice if the extended the spring bear season or even put a bounty on wolves heads....even if it was just enough to cover cost of bullet and a bit of fuel

[curt]

yes it would and how about if we are in a moose decline we close the any bull season in August tons of bulls hit the dirt and Im sure plenty of those bulls would do some breeding but wtf do I know seems we never learn from previous mistakes we are an ignorant race by nature sad but true, everyone is in it for their own personal gain period. Our salmon fishery is next on the list for extinction just sit back and watch it happen

[TPK]

Road access is one of the keys in region 5.When the average joe or Josephine can drive their dodge caravan into the prime moose habitat areas,you are going to have issues..the amount of logging in some of these once prolific moose and deer areas has really let a predator whether he be on two legs or four see a big black thing from a long ways away! I would like to see areas where the timber harvest is done for the forseeable future closed off for a few years to let the natural cover grow up again,don't close them to hunting but make it hike in or horse in,,it would sure allow the natural process to do it's thing.

No, road access is NOT one of the key issues in Region 5 .. we've been on LEH ONLY for mature bulls for many years. What does access have to with it when the only hunting for moose is LEH and you have a specified quota (AAH). Doesn't really matter how that number of tags if filled does it? road hunt, bow hunt, walk, drive, what ever.

Now if we had a GOS, then yes, road access would be an issue .. but we don't, and so it isn't.

[curt]

good points for region 5 issue's however opening access not only makes it easier for 2 legged predators it makes it much easier for 4 legged predators too !!
No, road access is NOT one of the key issues in Region 5 .. we've been on LEH ONLY for mature bulls for many years. What does access have to with it when the only hunting for moose is LEH and you have a specified quota (AAH). Doesn't really matter how that number of tags if filled does it? road hunt, bow hunt, walk, drive, what ever.

Now if we had a GOS, then yes, road access would be an issue .. but we don't, and so it isn't.

[scotty30-06]

Pretty sure the wolves knew how to kill moose before a road was ever put into place....but who knows I could be wrong lol

[wideopenthrottle]

Pretty sure the wolves knew how to kill moose before a road was ever put into place....but who knows I could be wrong lol

ummmmm you do realize wolves have made it to areas they were not in/eliminated from by using the nice easy access of roads and snow mobile trails to get there

it easier to argue that that is why there were so many moose-logging opened it all up for the moose too

[srupp]

Road access is one of the keys in region 5.When the average joe or Josephine can drive their dodge caravan into the prime moose habitat areas,you are going to have issues..the amount of logging in some of these once prolific moose and deer areas has really let a predator whether he be on two legs or four see a big black thing from a long ways away! I would like to see areas where the timber harvest is done for the forseeable future closed off for a few years to let the natural cover grow up again,don't close them to hunting but make it hike in or horse in,,it would sure allow the natural process to do it's thing.

Very well said.
The wolves and natives shooting everything they see..dig up the rds because they refuse to stop..so make it really really difficult.
Steven

[BgBlkDg]

But wait, what are you calling moose depletion, the fact that your average roadie won't be able to bag a bull in the headlights of the truck? True enough, we have areas where the numbers are going down due to various factors, but lets face it, this comes across slightly like the "I've never been able to shoot a Sitka" talk that pops up, every now and then. Nope, you won't be able to if you're just driving around looking for one dumb one to stop.

Predator control, I bet that if every hunter here went out religiously and took out at least a couple, take your pick: bear, cougar, wolf, coyotes, you'd see the numbers creeping up. Of course, there will always be the average asshole that shoot at everything that moves, or the disgruntled few that will "not leave it for AHEM" ...but those are exceptions and won't essentially matter in the long run, if the vast majority of us do our job with the predator control.

"the average roadie", "the average asshole"??????

Would these be legal BC citizen-hunters who may well be older, disabled and hunting in the only way they can?

I wonder, how many seasons of hardcore, active backpack Moose/Elk hunting have you done?

[BgBlkDg]

Very well said.
The wolves and natives shooting everything they see..dig up the rds because they refuse to stop..so make it really really difficult.
Steven

With the greatest respect, Steven, all that would really do is to make the resource more available to the local GOs and much less so for resident hunters, especially those like you and I who are somewhat gimpy through no fault of our own.

The way to deal with this is to DEMAND serious predator controls, do as much as we can with our rifles and to DEMAND limits to the current slaughter by a tiny minority.....and, IF, this happened, politicians WILL eventually listen.

[scotty30-06]

^^^^^^very well said

[Xenomorph]

"the average roadie", "the average asshole"??????

Would these be legal BC citizen-hunters who may well be older, disabled and hunting in the only way they can?

I wonder, how many seasons of hardcore, active backpack Moose/Elk hunting have you done?


Buddy I'm not talking about you or other gentlemen very much deserving the opportunity, I'm talking about lazy arse fellows like family members who won't step out of their trucks to walk into the bush. Didn't mean to touch a nerve there and I've got absolutely nothing against either way you choose to hunt.

I got 0 interest in being a righteous prick, my questions were just adding to the theoretical dialogue we're having.

Your input is much appreciated and point taken.

[HarryToolips]

No, road access is NOT one of the key issues in Region 5 .. we've been on LEH ONLY for mature bulls for many years. What does access have to with it when the only hunting for moose is LEH and you have a specified quota (AAH). Doesn't really matter how that number of tags if filled does it? road hunt, bow hunt, walk, drive, what ever.

Now if we had a GOS, then yes, road access would be an issue .. but we don't, and so it isn't.
Deactivating roads ain't about stopping resident harvest in this instance I would think, it's an important tool to limiting FN harvest...I don't know first hand the situation in region 5, but I'd like to see more road deactivation here in region 8 to limit FN harvest over here..

[HarryToolips]

With the greatest respect, Steven, all that would really do is to make the resource more available to the local GOs and much less so for resident hunters, especially those like you and I who are somewhat gimpy through no fault of our own.

The way to deal with this is to DEMAND serious predator controls, do as much as we can with our rifles and to DEMAND limits to the current slaughter by a tiny minority.....and, IF, this happened, politicians WILL eventually listen.
Amen, where do we start??

[Xenomorph]

Amen, where do we start??


Local MP, actively participating in the BCWF and ensuring our voices are heard as one?!? That's my plan at least, seems like a good start as any.

[BgBlkDg]

No issue with me, I am as guilty as anyone of comments I intend one way, but, are sometimes taken amiss. We DO NEED every hunter on our side and that is my only concern.

Thanks, for your nice PM and I appreciate your courtesy here. Give the politicians hell and maybe we can save hunting for us to enjoy for decades to come.

[drakfero]

Anybody tried to out run wolf in reforested timber where trees are 2-3 feet away from each other? Not a big chance for big animals i guess..

[srupp]

Hmm no..the LEH here is for any bull..not mature.....
Predator control is important in the Caribou....and not being taken seriously...bears..wolves...are having a deep impact on moose numbers. .of that there is no doubt..
There has been no willingness by fn to only harvest bulls, nor even report believable numbers, nor limit harvest for any reason..365 days a year..its leaders have asked for restraint..that hasnt happened.
So if there is not compliance even for protecting the species..then the only position is to do what is left to protect the moose.
Its not about old mobility challenged hunters like me..its about the moose survival.
Gas is cheap when no taxes are paid...and these thousands of kms of unused logging rds makes it very easy for fn to drive the rds day ..nite..365 days year..and they do.
So deactivate the roads..as many as possible...
With the requests to report kills, target and harvest only bulls...and limit kills to needs..not sales..or trades or ?.
More so West of the Fraser but more and more east also...
The politician's dont seem enthusiastic with opening all tools to save our moose..and both wolves, bears and fn arnt listening...
Steven

[Corb89]

wow, i started this thread before i left for work and come back hours later, and find 4 pages worth, im glad i joined this site.. as i can see clearly everyone here is a devout conservationist, its good to see

[Fisher-Dude]

close cow season let them breed shut calf season let them grow.............the end


yes it would and how about if we are in a moose decline we close the any bull season in August tons of bulls hit the dirt and Im sure plenty of those bulls would do some breeding but wtf do I know seems we never learn from previous mistakes we are an ignorant race by nature sad but true, everyone is in it for their own personal gain period. Our salmon fishery is next on the list for extinction just sit back and watch it happen


And when you try that for 10 years and have fewer moose when you're finished your failed experiment, then what?

There are very, very few places in BC with moose declines that don't have high pregnancy rates. Thus we can rule out regulated bull hunts. The sperm supply is just fine.

And we can see that in areas with cow/calf hunts we have the same decline as areas with bull only LEH only. If cow/calf hunts were hurting the population, why would the adjacent region with LEH bull only be experiencing the exact same decline in population? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that regulated cow/calf harvest isn't the culprit(s).

[boxhitch]

Would be nice if the extended the spring bear season or even put a bounty on wolves heads....even if it was just enough to cover cost of bullet and a bit of fuelI'll cover that for you. to a limit of 50 head ;)

[mpotzold]

In a nutshell –NO COWS=NO CALVES=NO MOOSE. PERIOD!

To prevent declining moose numbers in troubled areas like Omineca & start a recovery first & foremost the hunting of cows & calves should be immediately stopped by all hunters & that includes FN( in the name of conservation.)


If the numbers in an area are so low then close the hunting season/s on all moose until recovery is made.


I don’t have a problem in hunting cow/calf as long as the numbers support it.


Read that bears kill up to 50% of newborn calves. Maybe we should have a bounty on bears every other year or so to control their number.


I have witnessed the drastic increase in black bear numbers & the drastic decline in moose numbers in 5-03 in the last 6 to 8 years.

[Bobfl]

is that going to stop poaching and natives. OH NO

[scotty30-06]

Well boxhitch your on....lets get down to business ;)

[markomoose]

In a nutshell –NO COWS=NO CALVES=NO MOOSE. PERIOD!

To prevent declining moose numbers in troubled areas like Omineca & start a recovery first & foremost the hunting of cows & calves should be immediately stopped by all hunters & that includes FN( in the name of conserva

If the numbers in an area are so low then close the hunting season/s on all moose until recovery is made.


I don’t have a problem in hunting cow/calf as long as the numbers support it.


Read that bears kill up to 50% of newborn calves. Maybe we should have a bounty on bears every other year or so to control their number.


I have witnessed the drastic increase in black bear numbers & the drastic decline in moose numbers in 5-03 in the last 6 to 8 years.What this gentleman said!Bulls need cows to spread their seed and calves grow into cows and bulls.I have never been a fan of the calf season in this or other regions.My 2 cents.

[srupp]

Here in the caribou..im pretty certain the poaching issue is not a issue at all...
Predators. .wolves..bears..cougars..big impact..the wolf numbers have increased so rapidly and dramatically that I am starting to see a change in moose behavior..still a bit more chevking around.
As for Fn..there is no reporting ...so numbers cant be confirmed however the amount of cows shot is well known..later in winter in the wintering areas such as (.................... lake ) each pregnant cow shot represents 1, or 2 calves..

Those seem to be the main culprits..
It is my opinion seeing lots of cows with calves..very few without..and in those situations perhaps the calves were just not seen.
The black bear and grizzly numbers are as high as I have seen in the past 30 years..no shortage of Predator s here..
Steven

[drakfero]

http://www.env.gov.nl.ca/env/moose_plan.pdf

[Drillbit]

Deactivating roads ain't about stopping resident harvest in this instance I would think, it's an important tool to limiting FN harvest...I don't know first hand the situation in region 5, but I'd like to see more road deactivation here in region 8 to limit FN harvest over here..

Well the good moose hunting is west of the Fraser in region 5. In the 80's the Paley's (guides) got the good areas (5-13) limited to no ATV's access for Resident Hunters.

Now there is a lot of dug up roads, "de-activated." Limiting resident hunters ONLY.
Guides still guide there, Indians still hunt there, and wolves still travel those roads too.

FN hunters only shoot animals where it is easy, and they also use ATV's where they want. Atv restrictions ONLY limit Resident Hunters.

De-activations doesn't hamper FN hunting in the least. Digging up more roads doesn't limit FN hunting, it limits the very few Resident Hunters for predator hunting.

[skibum]

Well the good moose hunting is west of the Fraser in region 5. In the 80's the Paley's (guides) got the good areas (5-13) limited to no ATV's access for Resident Hunters.

Now there is a lot of dug up roads, "de-activated." Limiting resident hunters ONLY.
Guides still guide there, Indians still hunt there, and wolves still travel those roads too.

FN hunters only shoot animals where it is easy, and they also use ATV's where they want. Atv restrictions ONLY limit Resident Hunters.

De-activations doesn't hamper FN hunting in the least. Digging up more roads doesn't limit FN hunting, it limits the very few Resident Hunters for predator hunting.

Risk sounding like an idiot, does a de-activated road mean that resident hunters can not use atv's on it?

Personally thought FN hunters did not put that much energy into getting into tougher places that some resident hunters would?

[Vladimir Poutine]

And when you try that for 10 years and have fewer moose when you're finished your failed experiment, then what?

There are very, very few places in BC with moose declines that don't have high pregnancy rates. Thus we can rule out regulated bull hunts. The sperm supply is just fine.

And we can see that in areas with cow/calf hunts we have the same decline as areas with bull only LEH only. If cow/calf hunts were hurting the population, why would the adjacent region with LEH bull only be experiencing the exact same decline in population? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that regulated cow/calf harvest isn't the culprit(s).

Your first para is a no brainer. On the second point, even if it's 100% accurate, would the temporary halt of cow/calf seasons not increase the number of moose overall? I seem to remember hearing that cows in their prime typically have twins. With normal mortality rates it was suggested that their populations can rise quite dramatically. I'm not suggesting that a halt to cow/calf would solve the current population issue on it's own. Predator control is my personal go to option and by the province's plan they have finally agreed although not in so many words.

[Drillbit]

Risk sounding like an idiot, does a de-activated road mean that resident hunters can not use atv's on it?

Personally thought FN hunters did not put that much energy into getting into tougher places that some resident hunters would?

As stated above, ATV's are closed in that area for resident hunters. So if the roads are dug up, resident hunters can't use trucks to access the dug up areas.

[Fisher-Dude]

Your first para is a no brainer. On the second point, even if it's 100% accurate, would the temporary halt of cow/calf seasons not increase the number of moose overall? I seem to remember hearing that cows in their prime typically have twins. With normal mortality rates it was suggested that their populations can rise quite dramatically. I'm not suggesting that a halt to cow/calf would solve the current population issue on it's own. Predator control is my personal go to option and by the province's plan they have finally agreed although not in so many words.


If hunting isn't killing enough moose to cause a decline in the population, then will stopping hunting increase the population?

Calf seasons are designed to be compensatory mortality. Compensatory harvest does not affect the moose population. If 50% of calves die in year 1, whether they are hunted or not, why not hunt them?

Why did region 5 with no cow or calf seasons experience the same decline as region 7A with 7A's cow/calf seasons? We can put a new motor in a leaking ship, but that ain't gonna stop her from leaking and eventually going down. We have to stop the leak.

[Fisher-Dude]

Read that bears kill up to 50% of newborn calves. Maybe we should have a bounty on bears every other year or so to control their number.


I have witnessed the drastic increase in black bear numbers & the drastic decline in moose numbers in 5-03 in the last 6 to 8 years.


How much of a bounty would be required to motivate a hunter to go out and shoot a bear? How much does fuel cost? How much does it cost to butcher a bear?

Where would funding for the bounty come from? Would other F&W programs be discontinued to fund it?

[rgn5hunt]

If hunting isn't killing enough moose to cause a decline in the population, then will stopping hunting increase the population?

Calf seasons are designed to be compensatory mortality. Compensatory harvest does not affect the moose population. If 50% of calves die in year 1, whether they are hunted or not, why not hunt them?

Why did region 5 with no cow or calf seasons experience the same decline as region 7A with 7A's cow/calf seasons? We can put a new motor in a leaking ship, but that ain't gonna stop her from leaking and eventually going down. We have to stop the leak.

I think management in Region 5 fueled the growth of predator populations and a declining moose population. Reduced deer hunting opportunities, no spike or calf season, no conservative cow draw and many easy winters.Predators thrived . On a brighter note one area with lots of older logging blocks in NE 5- 2b seems to have a healthy moose population. Seeing moose and lots of track.

[Vladimir Poutine]

If hunting isn't killing enough moose to cause a decline in the population, then will stopping hunting increase the population?

Calf seasons are designed to be compensatory mortality. Compensatory harvest does not affect the moose population. If 50% of calves die in year 1, whether they are hunted or not, why not hunt them?

Why did region 5 with no cow or calf seasons experience the same decline as region 7A with 7A's cow/calf seasons? We can put a new motor in a leaking ship, but that ain't gonna stop her from leaking and eventually going down. We have to stop the leak.

On para 2 I read several times. So if normal mortality is 50% which sounds what I have heard, then would it be fair to say that the remaining half of the half is a male/female split? If so, that male is now this years spike/fork of which a % will be legal as that. So would not closing that cow to hunting not benefit moose #s as a whole as long as the sperm supply is OK?

[Xenomorph]

How much of a bounty would be required to motivate a hunter to go out and shoot a bear? How much does fuel cost? How much does it cost to butcher a bear?

Where would funding for the bounty come from? Would other F&W programs be discontinued to fund it?


To be honest bud, I wish I could take more bears in a year, because I would. I'm only taking two per year as it is. Trying to get out as much as I want is a little of an issue with two small children and a wife building her business.

Now, if my information is correct, as a trapper with a trapline one can take an additional 5 bears (black bears) on that trapline territory. Soon as time allows I'm doing the trap course and will look into buying a trapline.

[Fisher-Dude]

On para 2 I read several times. So if normal mortality is 50% which sounds what I have heard, then would it be fair to say that the remaining half of the half is a male/female split? If so, that male is now this years spike/fork of which a % will be legal as that. So would not closing that cow to hunting not benefit moose #s as a whole as long as the sperm supply is OK?

But the point that I think you're missing is that closing regulated hunting won't increase moose populations.

A strictly-controlled, LEH bull only region had a concurrent population decline with an adjacent region with cow LEH, calf GOS, spike/fork GOS, and bull LEH. It's obvious that jerking around with regulations would make no difference to moose populations.

It's easy to think if we don't shoot a cow that we'll have one more moose. But that isn't happening. She's dying anyway.

[Grizzloonly]

How much of a bounty would be required to motivate a hunter to go out and shoot a bear? How much does fuel cost? How much does it cost to butcher a bear?

Where would funding for the bounty come from? Would other F&W programs be discontinued to fund it?

Perhaps a bounty of increased odds in the LEH?

[Xenomorph]

Perhaps a bounty of increased odds in the LEH?

I wouldn't really care about the LEH to be honest if my quota for bear say was doubled/year. I'd be hunting the biggest oldest boars out there, more excuses to be in the bush. But then again I think bear is a delicious animal, I'd even try cougar, if I ever get one.

This year the first two tags bought were cougar, then 2 bear.

[Glenny]

[QUOTE=srupp;1791969]Here in the caribou..im pretty certain the poaching issue is not a issue at all...Steven[/QUOTE

East of the Fraser anyway, just my thoughts. But the preds are surely reeking havoc from what I've seen in the Big Lake/Likely area. Shame that.

[lucky1]

http://www.env.gov.nl.ca/env/moose_plan.pdf
Interesting stuff. Is there a BC one like this?

Edit: Nevermind, I found it!
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/management-issues/docs/provincial_framework_for_moose_management_bc.pdf

[curt]

VERY TRUE HOWEVER IT IS ALSO VERY COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT OPENING UP VAST AMOUNTS OF COUNTRY MAKES IT CONSIDERABLY EASIER FOR ALL PREDATORS TO PREY. THEY CATCH THE CRITTERS OUT IN THE OPEN MORE FREQUENTLY THE BIO'S HAVE ALSO BEEN RECORDING FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS DECLINES IN POPULATIONS WHERE EXTENSIVE BEETLE KILL HARVEST IS HAPPENING....... THERE EXPLANATION DUE TO EASY ACCESS TO BETTER HABITAT IMPACTS THE POPULATION!! but who know I could be wrong lol

Pretty sure the wolves knew how to kill moose before a road was ever put into place....but who knows I could be wrong lol

[srupp]

Ya pretty easy for pavk of wolves to enter a massive cutblock and see a moose 2 kms away. .the rest is easy peasy..
Srupp

[358mag]

Ya pretty easy for pavk of wolves to enter a massive cutblock and see a moose 2 kms away. .the rest is easy peasy..
Srupp
Or a pack of FN's in a F-150 with high power spot lights .
You may be able to stop one group with deactivated roads , but the other group will still have a hay day

[Drillbit]

Or a pack of FN's in a F-150 with high power spot lights .
You may be able to stop one group with deactivated roads , but the other group will still have a hay da

Exactly.
De-activating roads isn't a solution to the problem.

More predator killing is.

[bearvalley]

Exactly.
De-activating roads isn't a solution to the problem.

More predator killing is.

Reducing predators will be one of the tools needed to stop the decline in moose populations and it's going to be damn tough to get a large enough drop in wolf numbers with just using bullets and traps.
Hunting can drop bear and cougar densities if needed.
On top of that we need to restore the environment/habitat that moose need to thrive in. To recreate moose habitat we need to consider access management, logging and silviculture practices and the use of chemical brushing programs.
It's interesting to note that a few of the collared moose in recent areas being studied due to the population decline were found to have died from malnutrition.
We also need to consider the excessive tick loads to moose in some areas due to the mild winters and the possibility of diseases in moose that they were not known to have before as contributors to the decline.
My personal observation of the FN harvest is that they are taking less game than in the past. There are bad actors in every group but I don't believe they deserve the blame for the decline that some are giving to them.
Yesterday I ran into an old time Chilcotin guide outfitter, now retired. The current moose crash topic came up and his one comment that really stuck was..."50 years ago in the Chilcotin it was not that common to see tracks of a wolf pack and if you did someone dealt with them....now they're everywhere."
It's going to take the application of a few tools to rebound moose numbers.
Shutting down the hunting of bull moose is just an unnessary bandaid...unless the bull/cow ratio has gotten to a low enough level that the hunt needs to end for the future viability of the species in a localized area.

[srupp]

Hmmm very true about the wolf increase...literally exploding numbers everywhere..no the deactivation of the rds wont stop wolves but reforestation. .then rd closures..
Moose are not starving in the cariboo. .anywhere..
As far as fn hunting..pretty easy to see moose hanging pretty much most of the year..easier when its colder..less bugs..easier to keep the meat edible. .no one on the rez is in want of wikd meat protein. .
Its going to be numerous strategies..biggest 2..wolves..and unregulated cow harvest..
Cheers

[mpotzold]

Reducing predators will be one of the tools needed to stop the decline in moose populations and it's going to be damn tough to get a large enough drop in wolf numbers with just using bullets and traps.
Hunting can drop bear and cougar densities if needed.
On top of that we need to restore the environment/habitat that moose need to thrive in. To recreate moose habitat we need to consider access management, logging and silviculture practices and the use of chemical brushing programs.
It's interesting to note that a few of the collared moose in recent areas being studied due to the population decline were found to have died from malnutrition.
We also need to consider the excessive tick loads to moose in some areas due to the mild winters and the possibility of diseases in moose that they were not known to have before as contributors to the decline.
My personal observation of the FN harvest is that they are taking less game than in the past. There are bad actors in every group but I don't believe they deserve the blame for the decline that some are giving to them.
Yesterday I ran into an old time Chilcotin guide outfitter, now retired. The current moose crash topic came up and his one comment that really stuck was..."50 years ago in the Chilcotin it was not that common to see tracks of a wolf pack and if you did someone dealt with them....now they're everywhere."
It's going to take the application of a few tools to rebound moose numbers.
Shutting down the hunting of bull moose is just an unnessary bandaid...unless the bull/cow ratio has gotten to a low enough level that the hunt needs to end for the future viability of the species in a localized area.

AGREE!

TNG supports project to recover moose


http://media.bclocalnews.com/images/6148tribunechief-joe.jpg Tl’etinqox-t’in elders Dinah and William Billyboy and TNG Chair and Chief Joe Alphonse join Dan Simmons’ Cow Moose Sign Project in an effort to help recover the struggling moose populations in the Cariboo Chilcotin.



This is a good start!:grin:

http://www.wltribune.com/news/338544402.html

[srupp]

Lol...great PR photo op..far from reality..hasnt saved 1 cow moose..nor her unborn calves...

Way more complicated than post a photo save a cow..Chief Joe..pretty good guy..but not a lot even he can do....

[boxhitch]

Good to see the signs.
Public knowledge then public pressure then peer pressure from the surrounding community will certainly help.

[hunterdon]

Good work TNG. Keep it up. You have a definite thumbs up from me!