Hunters together …or not

[Xenomorph]

I don't normally do this, but I think that if we keep going like this - and I don't mean the cougar thread only - we're only going to alienate each other, never mind the outsiders who already have a knee jerk reaction to anything hunting related, or "innocent" animals getting killed.

This will be a long winded response and I hope one will take the time and patience to understand where I am coming from and the message within.

I wasn't born here, I was born and raised in Transylvania and I moved here in my adult age. Needless to say, upon my move here I had a very judgmental opinion on anything "killing wildlife" related. I wasn't an activist, but I wasn't a fan of people shooting living things either. I came from a culture and family where everything is/was available: the food was all organic and the meat was all grass fed. We didn't feel the need to go and shoot animals because we were scouting and taking pictures of them. Granted, the wildlife there is nowhere near as abundant as here.

Fast forward six years of me being here, now a naturalized Canadian citizen that inexplicably gained 125lbs and wasn't able to shed them down. Then the videos online, oh my, the videos of farmed animals butchered, beaten, abused, pink slime and all the other BS being passed as food here. I didn't need to be told to, I'm a smart individual, I speak 7 languages, I've been through law school …the **** with meat tasting like cardboard, the **** with tomatoes NOT tasting like tomatoes. Me, the prick that always scoffed at my parents' obsession with their gardens, sausage making …ended up going back to pick their brains and appropriate the wisdom. Principally I'm a self-taught person, so research is intrinsic to any decision I'll make. I didn't need to be convinced of the benefits. Befriending a hunter I ended up tasting a couple of the dishes they prepared at the time and ended up loving it; then, in pure and utter disbelief I was shown a freezer full with venison …and it clicked: the MEAT I was raised with is this, the venison. Anything else will be a sad economically dictated concoction of whatever can be salvaged and utilized for profit.

Most of you hardcore hunters here had someone to teach you how to hunt, butcher, prepare. My experience was vastly research and hands-on approach, but I've succeeded to fall in love with the act, the harvest and the culture of hunting for your own meat. I've lost close to 70lbs in one year, I'm lighter, stronger, wiser.

All you hardcore teachers of BS, calm the **** down and take the antis with a grain on salt. Most are uneducated in the ways of the old, and some are severely broken from anything "real" and those you won't change. For them people that were iffy to the act of hunting - like I was - a simple debate and share of sound opinions opens gates, changes the narrative and from a "**** YOU SAVAGE!" knee jerk reaction to a more gentle "Uhm, who knew?!?" I have colleagues now that will dig into my lunch and steal bits and pieces of meat and be amazed that bear tastes so good ...

I've had good friends that kept sharing forever on FB these "cruel *******s shooting innocent animals" and then I took the time to chime in on a Polar bear kill and explain how the Innuit community, the government and the actual bears (more cubs survive) benefit if a certain number of the big boars are taken each year. Took some work, research and convincing, as luck makes it, last year Banff Grizzly cubs all succumbed to aggressive boars and when they were presented with all the facts they were able to understand, accept that some of us will make the decision and the shot they won't be able to.

Cougars …never thought I'd like to hunt for one, until I heard they taste amazing. Wolves, for love sakes, I've grown with shepherds and never thought I'd consciously go and shoot one …but I am, because the damage they can do is not to be ignored, and because I don't need Miley Cyrus to tell me what to do. Unless she'd be telling me in person, softly whispered …never mind, I'm derailing.

In the immortal words of Teddy Roosevelt "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far."

Let's speak together, unified as a group, otherwise we'll be as pathetic as the GOP and their newly-to-be-elected-President-Orange.

[Chopper]

People have no idea what is inevitably coming, How long will it take ? who knows , But what I do know ... Is we are desperate for more educated hunters. Honestly I believe the worst thing for the current hunting community is uneducated hunters. Uneducated hunters , and there are lot's of them right now ... are almost as bad as Anti's

[Xenomorph]

People have no idea what is inevitably coming, How long will it take ? who knows , But what I do know ... Is we are desperate for more educated hunters. Honestly I believe the worst thing for the current hunting community is uneducated hunters. Uneducated hunters , and there are lot's of them right now ... are almost as bad as Anti's


Exactly! And there's so much energy being wasted in this quid pro quo, kind of reminds me of this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_JISkr91Tk


Seriously though, if we're not able to educate others, how will we be able to educate our kids to continue doing this in their time. Aggression and "Faaaack you!" works as long as you have the breath to say it. Once you tire, it's done.

[Downtown]

Born and raised in Transylvanya Eh. If you grew up rural you should know a bit about hunting culture and about Count Dracula the Impaler which gives me the shivers of his unbelivable cruelty. Otherwise nice place I am told and plenty history. Even our own King in waiting maintains a place there, great.

Welcome to the hunting comunity of BC, no better hunting opportunities in north America then here.

Cheers

[Singleshotneeded]

Bine ati venit la Vanatoare B.C.. Ai facut niste puncte inteligente, va multumesc. Ave Dacus!

[kevan]

Thanks for starting a very timely and worthwhile thread Xenomorph, one every body should absorb..... and contribute to..

[kush]

Yes .

[Xenomorph]

Born and raised in Transylvanya Eh. If you grew up rural you should know a bit about hunting culture and about Count Dracula the Impaler which gives me the shivers of his unbelivable cruelty. Otherwise nice place I am told and plenty history. Even our own King in waiting maintains a place there, great.

Welcome to the hunting comunity of BC, no better hunting opportunities in north America then here.

Cheers

Thanks for the welcome and I hope to have the opportunity one day to shed some light on the virtue of the aforementioned vilified Prince Vlad. I promise you, if you were in his shoes you would've done the same.


Bine ati venit la Vanatoare B.C.. Ai facut niste puncte inteligente, va multumesc. Ave Dacus!

Mersi, sa ne auzim cu bine. ;-)


Thanks for starting a very timely and worthwhile thread Xenomorph, one every body should absorb..... and contribute to..

I sure hope so, thanks man.

[hoochie]

Cougars …never thought I'd like to hunt for one, until I heard they taste amazing.

cougars taste amazing?
who told you that? I have never heard of anyone eating a cougar. born and raised here, cougar hunters in my family. Nobody ever said they even tasted it.

[albravo2]

cougars taste amazing?
who told you that? I have never heard of anyone eating a cougar. born and raised here, cougar hunters in my family. Nobody ever said they even tasted it.

I've heard it as well. Buddy from Smithers said they served it at one of the Fish and Wildlife dinners and it was the most popular dish.

Personally, I find an omnivore like a bear is OK, but a carnivore doesn't really scream dinner to me.

[Treed]

Cougar tastes great. It's a white meat, a lot like pork. Marinated in canned apricots, yummy. Sent my kids to school with cougar sandwiches but told them to keep it quiet to avoid an uproar.

[Xenomorph]

cougars taste amazing?
who told you that? I have never heard of anyone eating a cougar. born and raised here, cougar hunters in my family. Nobody ever said they even tasted it.


Cougar tastes great. It's a white meat, a lot like pork. Marinated in canned apricots, yummy. Sent my kids to school with cougar sandwiches but told them to keep it quiet to avoid an uproar.


Hoochie, it's something I've heard from a friend, never tasted it myself, but I'm much more able to rationalize the need to hunt cougars too when it's not just a predator management only, but a possible tasty treat as well. I'm pretty sure I'll be the only one eating it, just because cougar eating sounds more like a man thing to do ...OK, pun over. :)


Treed that's awesome, thanks for sharing. Slow cooker?


From my perspective, a group of weirdos that still harvest their own meat and make their own sausages feels much less threatening than a foaming-at-the-mouth-Bambi-shooter. Your general public is oblivious to the things they ingest, but their general acceptance of certain things is far less to happen if our general attitude is a middle finger and a kiss my arse attitude.

No, I'm not on a mission to save the world, but my discourse is very much on the dialogue ensuing one.

[hoochie]

I hear your point, but from my own experience ( my family) there is a divide and its been going on much longer than I have been alive. Some of my family hunt, the others do not. There is no middle ground. The ones that don't hunt despise what we do and think its unnecessary in todays world to have to kill something in order to survive. My granmpa told me to do what I wanted to do and what I thought was right.
There will always be people who want others to do the "harvesting" for them, and they don't even make a connection between the meat from the grocery store/ deli as once being a living animal. Meat comes from behind the glass at the market and comes home in grocery bag.
My meat comes from the field and comes home after I have worked my ass off to get it.

[two-feet]

There is a bit of light shining on our lifestyle. Many city folk, and non hunting rural folks, are awakening to the fact that meat from the grocery store is disgusting and unethical. These people have 2 options: go vegitarian or try to source good meat. Option 2 is expensive and difficult so most either ignore the facts or go veggie.

I ended up spending the winter in Vancouver this year. It is pretty easy to see how people are so far removed from reality, nothing about the city makes sense to me.

I found many people to be open and intrigued about hunting and eating wild meat but the same people were completely ignorant to rules and regulations, hunting ethics and consevation measures. These people need to be educated, and we need to be the educators. Not screaming and frothing about antis, because this will alienate most people and put them on the defensive. Calm, intelegent, rational discussion. Kill their arguments with logic.

[Xenomorph]

I found many people to be open and intrigued about hunting and eating wild meat but the same people were completely ignorant to rules and regulations, hunting ethics and consevation measures. These people need to be educated, and we need to be the educators. Not screaming and frothing about antis, because this will alienate most people and put them on the defensive. Calm, intelegent, rational discussion. Kill their arguments with logic.

You got it man. When I am being asked why I hunt that's exactly what I respond: conservation and meat. Conservation because most of your non educated civilians would become inquisitive on the conservation comment and have a "lightbulb" moment when you lay down the reasons, logical and evidence supported, no screamed out the top of your breath self righteousness.

[boxhitch]

Cougar tastes great. It's a white meat, a lot like pork. Lynx and bobcat too. They all get gobbled up at the banquets.
Really , why would there be any meat out there that is NOT edible ? Its all a matter mindset.

Just like the mindset of many who think one form of hunting is okay yet another isn't. Besides just being selfish , voicing in public about whats right and wrong does harm to the hunting community as a whole.
Some people need to stop and think of others before spouting off on a keyboard.

[boxhitch]

When I am asked why I hunt I say its a lifestyle choice because hunting is far more than just killing something, and I believe in it more strongly than any deity worshiping religion.
Being a complete hunter is far more than just going out for meat on the table, something many new license holders may be missing.

[ajr5406]

Great post Xenomorph...

I too am an immigrant, and I too come from a culture where "hunting" and "conversation" were two words never used in the same sentence. I also grew up with an view of hunting that was very bad, and misguided.

In the absence of non-hunting people taking the time to evaluate hunting as an ethical and worthwhile thing, hunters need to set an example to the rest of society that this lifestyle is both ethical, and valuable from conservation point of view. Sadly the media and many hunting TV shows show hunters as a bunch of redneck a-holes who just love killing innocent animals.

We hunters need to be a united front to show society that hunting is a wonderful thing for the natural world, and that hunters are responsible for being stewards of the land and fighting for conservation. The ethical harvesting of organic meat is a whole other benefit!




You got it man. When I am being asked why I hunt that's exactly what I respond: conservation and meat. Conservation because most of your non educated civilians would become inquisitive on the conservation comment and have a "lightbulb" moment when you lay down the reasons, logical and evidence supported, no screamed out the top of your breath self righteousness.

[Xenomorph]

When I am asked why I hunt I say its a lifestyle choice because hunting is far more than just killing something, and I believe in it more strongly than any deity worshiping religion.

That moment up on the mountain top/path/hike as you're closing on the summit and the sun is rising up, as you're zoning out of all day to day BS and trouble, that moment right there might be closer to whatever one believes in :)))

[Foxtail]

Very well thought out and written post Xenomorph. Thank you for posting it. I have moose meat in my freezer along with venison. Next season I hope to add sheep, goat and elk if I can find the time. I feel that conservation should be taught in schools aswell but I doubt there is much chance of that.

[Riverbc]

cougars taste amazing?
who told you that? I have never heard of anyone eating a cougar. born and raised here, cougar hunters in my family. Nobody ever said they even tasted it.

Had it twice at Abbotsford Fish and Game dinners. It was delicious!

[MB_Boy]

When I am asked why I hunt I say its a lifestyle choice because hunting is far more than just killing something, and I believe in it more strongly than any deity worshiping religion.
Being a complete hunter is far more than just going out for meat on the table, something many new license holders may be missing.

Completely agree and I think that is a huge part of the perception that people can't wrap their heads around....the killing aspect.

[Xenomorph]

Completely agree and I think that is a huge part of the perception that people can't wrap their heads around....the killing aspect.

You guys are hitting the issue spot on. The conversation so far has been focused on the barbarism of some people killing Bambi. I know, somewhat ignorant of me to summarize it this way, but it makes perfect sense. In a culture of pre-made, pre-cooked, no-more-self-reliant society it's hard for someone that hasn't ever been exposed to or explained the reasons/benefits behind the "stewardship of the land". Some will say it's BS, then go and gorge themselves on that delicious pink slime and consider they've done their duty in shaming someone for their barbarism allthewhile supporting an industry that sometimes is far and too disproportionately inhumane and more often then not profit driven.

I think together, a voice of reason, logic and science based narrative would be far more compelling to any of the issues raised by the antis or the uneducated majority.

But it just as my grandpa used to say "God gives you the basket, it's your duty to fill it." If we're just waiting for someone to magically appear and do all things we need to do TOGETHER ...then might as well stfu and embrace the inevitable.

[BackBacon]

That moment up on the mountain top/path/hike as you're closing on the summit and the sun is rising up, as you're zoning out of all day to day BS and trouble, that moment right there might be closer to whatever one believes in :)))

What a great comment. That describes the feeling I had on my very first hunting trip last season, while I was hiking up to the top of a mountain and as I came up over the hill and saw the view of the valley on the other side, rifle in hand, cool breeze on my face, just completely immersed in nature, I thought to myself. "this is God"

And I am by no means a religious man!

[Goose]

Well written and a great read, thank you Xenomorph!

[okas]

it is all gods country what ells is to believe in as we all went to Sunday school ;)

[two-feet]

We need a media campaign. Plain and simple. I envision statistics on conservation $ put forth by hunters, poster type bios of hunters with a quote of why they hunt, etc etc. All we need is an orginization that reperesents hunters and has some money to throw around. Hmmm.........

[Rob Chipman]

Xenomorph, you make a very good point.

There is a certain portion of the population that will never support hunting, and there is a certain part of the population that is happy to be low information and judgmental. They are a minority.

There is a large part of the population that does not hunt and that loves animals. They don't like to see animals suffer. These people are not our enemies and shouldn't be lumped in with the smaller minority. They actually have a lot in common with us - like most of us they love animals and don't want to see them suffer. Shane Mahoney points this out effectively (if you haven't heard his podcast with Randy Newberg you owe it to yourself to listen).

If you don't know people like this you may not realize that they often appreciate the challenge they face, so let me explain it. I've got at least two friends who have expressed this. They don't like that I kill animals. It makes them flinch. I explain to them that it's way less damaging to the planet than big commercial agriculture, it's got a pretty small carbon footprint, that it requires less death per pound of food, that it contributes to conservation, and that I haven't really even exhausted the list of benefits.

Then I start explaining how many animals they're responsible for killing through their demand for meat for themselves and their pets, both directly through the killing of those meat animals as well as through habitat destruction/ denial and incidental killing through harvest or direct killing through pest control.

And they respond..."I know. And I feel bad about that too. I think I should become vegan, but what you tell me about that proves that it's a delusion. I recognize that life requires death. I just still don't like it".

Which puts a choice in front of me. I can get aggressive and tell them to cowboy the **** up and recognize how complicit they are in death (they've already recognized it, mind you) and tell them to stop flinching and go strangle some kittens, and I can tell them how much I love killing shit (which isn't really true) or...I can say

"Hey, I get it. You recognize that there is death in the world and you don't like it, and you recognize that it can't be avoided, and you're having trouble accepting that. Fair enough. And by the way, thanks for listening to me when I explain that hunting isn't all about killing, and that my way is thought out and ethical, as well as part of my heritage and culture, and that it puts me in touch with the real world that people are increasingly divorced from, and thanks for listening when I explain that there's a pretty good argument to be made that there is no such thing as trophy hunting, and that deer don't retire to a farm in the country when they get old, and that bears don't just eat berries, and wolves aren't actually threatened, but caribou are."

And then I give them some meat. One of them has an old dog with pancreatitis, which means too much fat will kill her. She loves that dog and pays good money for raw venison (which probably comes from New Zealand), so when I give her a bunch of ground up moose and do without some sausage for myself she's grateful, and she understands.

So, my point is like Xenomorph's: not all antis are the same. We'll attract more flies with honey (or a gift or two of meat) than we will with an aggressive attack. So, just like when we're out in the bush, take a breathe and think a bit before pulling the trigger on an anti-hunter. We need to convert them to support hunting. We do that by telling the story (and we've got a good story to tell).


two-feet:

"We need a media campaign. Plain and simple. I envision statistics on conservation $ put forth by hunters...."

If you haven't heard Mahoney talk about this you need to check him out. You're on the same track as he is but he's also trying to figure out the total amount of sustainable meat taken each year by hunters and how far that ripples through the community.

[Bear]

great post!!

[metalface]

+1 on the Mahoney / Newberg podcast it is legendary

https://itunes.apple.com/ca/podcast/hunt-talk-radio-randy-newberg/id1012713381?mt=2&i=349515298

[two-feet]

Got it downloading. Always a sucker for a good podcast.

Good post mr chipman, as per norm.

I feel the lifestyle of hunting is under attack from one side, and being well represented and deffended on the other. Our provincial govt (present and future) worries me as well. The thing that worries me the most is the reduction of game animals in general, and the lack of any political will to spend the money to increase the populations. This will kick us in the butt long before any of our other problems.

[HarryToolips]

Well said Xenomorph...I as well had to learn hunting on my own, none of my family were into it, only a good buddy of mine...before that, I just loved being in the bush and shooting guns so I decided to take it up, and it turned into another passion in the woods..

[Ourea]

Good thread X.
HBC needs more quality content and perspective.
Ur thread certainly qualifies.

[sawmill]

Who the F are you? Trany ain`t a country.

[Pinewood]

Good thread, thanks Xeno. I've had the conversation with many people that are against hunting and in the end they all see the "light". It's all in the presentation of the topic matter. Nobody can really make a logical, reasonable argument against the sustainable harvest of the best meat found anywhere.

We definitely need to raise awareness that the modern hunter is not a beer chugging, sign shooting hill billy with a confederate flag in the back of the pickup and a wicked blood lust. I know that is not a fair comparison for hunters, but that is how a lot of the general public see it. The fortunate part of this though, is that we do have a lot of people that now more aware than ever of where their food comes from and how it gets to them. As time goes on I think we will see more and more acceptance of meat hunting and less acceptance of "trophy hunts". If it's not table fare, then it likely won't be on the "plate" much longer.

[IslandBC]

Walt Disney ruined it for all of us...

[Everett]

Who the F are you? Trany ain`t a country.

Jo Transylvania was country for hundreds of years it is currently mostly part of Romania. It has a strong hunting history as well. Curious as to what language Singleshot and Xenomorph are writing in as I can read and understand it but I am not familiar with it.

[ruger#1]

It is very sad. People do not know what is in dairy and chicken feed. Dairy feed has chicken meal. And or porcine = pork meal. One farmer is putting fish meal in his feed. This is how he is getting high omega three. From it.Now is a cow a carnivore? Chicken feed has meat meal in it. I have seen chickens eat mice. Voles. Worms. But nothing meat meal like rendered cattle. Food for thought. I have been working in the feed bussines since I was 17. I am 53 now.

[Chopper]

Someone needs the derail the shit out of this thread ... Far to positive for hbc

[wideopenthrottle]

mom's mom (92 now) was born in Romania but she is Ukrainian in ethnicity...sounds like an interesting place (more than just the stories of Dracula)

[Xenomorph]

Sorry for not catching up on the read and summarizing bits to this. Just went through another car crash and I'm dealing with the repercussions.

Who the F are you? Trany ain`t a country.


Who the F are you? I've caught myself asking that existential question many a times, so far I have yet to come with succinct coherent answer to that.

Trany ain't a country.
No, it's not a country, it's a province within Romania, one of the main three and I find extremely refreshing that here in Canada people aren't ignorant to the geography of the world. If I had a dollar every time someone down south asked me what my accent is, and when I say Romanian, Latin language, then I'm asked where in Central America Romania is ...

Thanks for the question and the chuckle.


Lynx and bobcat too ... Its all a matter mindset.

Just like the mindset of many who think one form of hunting is okay yet another isn't. Besides just being selfish , voicing in public about whats right and wrong does harm to the hunting community as a whole.
Some people need to stop and think of others before spouting off on a keyboard.

It's a mindset in general from the whole NA culture of me, me, me. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the can do attitude, the standing for your own rights, beliefs and so on. What I find intriguing is where did the common sense and basic judgement of rules -whether social or - has gone awry.

Sometimes people speak before they think, and although free speech is a given, shouldn't there always be substance to one's construct? I am thinking back to one of my professor's dictons "If you aint got something positive, constructive and clear to say, then shut up." What I've noticed is that people generally tend to stay away from conflict, but that just gives free way to everyone else who open the floodgates without much thought process.

We don't need to match word-for-word whatever they claim against our choices, we just need to make sure that as a group, we are cohesive and coherent in presenting the facts.


Being a complete hunter is far more than just going out for meat on the table, something many new license holders may be missing.

Precisely that, if some of these new hunters only knew the amount of courses and exams a hunter has to pass in Germany for example. You'd be amazed how many would fail.

One thing I'd like to underline here is the notorious ignorance of the law on the bases "I don't speak English" that is being excused or tossed aside with ridiculous ease. That, wherever one might be coming from, shouldn't be a part of whom we are as a group.



We hunters need to be a united front to show society that hunting is a wonderful thing for the natural world, and that hunters are responsible for being stewards of the land and fighting for conservation. The ethical harvesting of organic meat is a whole other benefit!


Information, whether we absorb it through media, friends and family, on a personal quest, is just that exposure to opinions, facts, arguments. I'm surprised how many times I find myself inserting "but hunting has this benefit and that" in my general day to day life. Wherever I might find myself, and then it's gotten to be known I hunt and people who know me actually pose questions and have a decent conversation to me about it.




And I am by no means a religious man!

it is all gods country what ells is to believe in as we all went to Sunday school ;)

That solitude, especially when hunting solo. That peace of mind and self awareness one has ...just like Sunday school ;) but without the nuns.


Well written and a great read, thank you Xenomorph!

Thanks man, I have my moments :)



We need a media campaign. Plain and simple.

I think they do have something in place. My current thread was caused by the latest escalation in comments and feelings that were being thrown around. Nobody will ever be 100% behind us, but they will absolutely continue rejecting our lifestyle if we continue on the current path. I'm a young member in BCWF, and I haven't yet had a chance to attend the meetings, share thoughts with other members and contribute. I'm sure I'll do that in due time, but change - effective, long lasting change- starts from the bottom up.




So, my point is like Xenomorph's: not all antis are the same. We'll attract more flies with honey (or a gift or two of meat) than we will with an aggressive attack. So, just like when we're out in the bush, take a breathe and think a bit before pulling the trigger on an anti-hunter. We need to convert them to support hunting. We do that by telling the story (and we've got a good story to tell).



Thanks for the comment Rob, I'll check on Mahoney for sure. You're right on the money with the honey :). We're all part of a community, whether we like it or not, what we do outside of our "private place" happens in common with other people's views, interests, issues. We don't need to convert people to this, we just need to be heard, understood and respected for the choices we make.



great post!!

Thanks Bear.


Well said Xenomorph...I as well had to learn hunting on my own, none of my family were into it, only a good buddy of mine...before that, I just loved being in the bush and shooting guns so I decided to take it up, and it turned into another passion in the woods..

And we're lucky for you to have done that on your own, thanks man.



Good thread X.
HBC needs more quality content and perspective.
Ur thread certainly qualifies.

Thanks bud, my birthday came and passed, becoming a wise old fart seems one year closer now. :)


Good thread, thanks Xeno. I've had the conversation with many people that are against hunting and in the end they all see the "light". It's all in the presentation of the topic matter. Nobody can really make a logical, reasonable argument against the sustainable harvest of the best meat found anywhere.

We definitely need to raise awareness that the modern hunter is not a beer chugging, sign shooting hill billy with a confederate flag in the back of the pickup and a wicked blood lust. I know that is not a fair comparison for hunters, but that is how a lot of the general public see it. The fortunate part of this though, is that we do have a lot of people that now more aware than ever of where their food comes from and how it gets to them. As time goes on I think we will see more and more acceptance of meat hunting and less acceptance of "trophy hunts". If it's not table fare, then it likely won't be on the "plate" much longer.

Trophy hunts hurt us truly when something "illegal" has happened, because then the ammunition is right there, there is no more focus on the "benefits" of the cull, the harvest of a certain number of Grizzly boars and so on. And that's where the ethics and the responsibility of each and every one of us comes into play.

After all, we are a bunch of mature men and women and not a gang of hooligans.



Walt Disney ruined it for all of us...

Meh, I still love Bambi, but deer tastes great. I went passed that long time ago and so can every single person that actually gets exposed to the "true story" we life day to day, year after year.



It is very sad. People do not know what is in dairy and chicken feed. Dairy feed has chicken meal. And or porcine = pork meal. One farmer is putting fish meal in his feed. This is how he is getting high omega three. From it.Now is a cow a carnivore? Chicken feed has meat meal in it. I have seen chickens eat mice. Voles. Worms. But nothing meat meal like rendered cattle. Food for thought. I have been working in the feed bussines since I was 17. I am 53 now.


That was my wake up call right there man, because where I come from everything was grass and grain (non gmo) fed. Well, some of the "benefits and technologies" from here must have made their way overseas too by now.

By the way, chicken are weird , they will eat stuff that will make one go WTF! I was at my grandpa's farm one day when I was a kid, and we heard the hens go bonkers over in the cloverfield. Not sure if the rooster killed it, or what, but they were ripping apart and eating a snake. Must have seemed to them like a delicious worm or something. However, from that to being fed and kept they are on the industrial scale ...that's a whole other story.



mom's mom (92 now) was born in Romania but she is Ukrainian in ethnicity...sounds like an interesting place (more than just the stories of Dracula)

It is, and it used to be even better. What made it seem that way was the sense of community. The "helping each other", being there to share some advice most of us here we'd find intrusive. I'm not saying whatever we're doing is wrong, I'm just saying that I've noticed we could do a better job. It's our common interest and the way to further it I think would be through encouraging others to learn, inquire, experience and possibly try. You never know, we might not be the barbarians we are sometimes portrayed to be.





If by chance I had some run on sentences, spelling mistakes, or phrase syntax that remind you of .... oh whom am I kidding. Most of the pissed off scoff ups gave up on reading this long time ago, and the ones that did go through all of it will understand.

Peace!

[Foxtail]

Sorry to hear about the car accident man. Hope you are alright. as for this thread... Keep up what you are doing. You are spreading the right information and doing it the right way. We as a group need people like you, not just because we agree with you or because we are not willing to do it but because you seem to be able to convey the message and are "slightly" (lol) more well spoken than the majority of us. And that is what we need. A professional sounding spokesperson that is passionate but not arrogant.

[GoatGuy]

Good conversation here

[Fella]

Great thread! I love Romania, such a beautiful country, generous people and amazing food. Helps that my wife was born there!

[tuner]

Well done Xenomorph, this has been a good thread.

[AgSilver]

Xenomorph, you make a very good point.


There is a certain portion of the population that will never support hunting, and there is a certain part of the population that is happy to be low information and judgmental. They are a minority.


There is a large part of the population that does not hunt and that loves animals. They don't like to see animals suffer. These people are not our enemies and shouldn't be lumped in with the smaller minority. They actually have a lot in common with us - like most of us they love animals and don't want to see them suffer. Shane Mahoney points this out effectively (if you haven't heard his podcast with Randy Newberg you owe it to yourself to listen).


If you don't know people like this you may not realize that they often appreciate the challenge they face, so let me explain it. I've got at least two friends who have expressed this. They don't like that I kill animals. It makes them flinch. I explain to them that it's way less damaging to the planet than big commercial agriculture, it's got a pretty small carbon footprint, that it requires less death per pound of food, that it contributes to conservation, and that I haven't really even exhausted the list of benefits.


Then I start explaining how many animals they're responsible for killing through their demand for meat for themselves and their pets, both directly through the killing of those meat animals as well as through habitat destruction/ denial and incidental killing through harvest or direct killing through pest control.


And they respond..."I know. And I feel bad about that too. I think I should become vegan, but what you tell me about that proves that it's a delusion. I recognize that life requires death. I just still don't like it".


Which puts a choice in front of me. I can get aggressive and tell them to cowboy the **** up and recognize how complicit they are in death (they've already recognized it, mind you) and tell them to stop flinching and go strangle some kittens, and I can tell them how much I love killing shit (which isn't really true) or...I can say


"Hey, I get it. You recognize that there is death in the world and you don't like it, and you recognize that it can't be avoided, and you're having trouble accepting that. Fair enough. And by the way, thanks for listening to me when I explain that hunting isn't all about killing, and that my way is thought out and ethical, as well as part of my heritage and culture, and that it puts me in touch with the real world that people are increasingly divorced from, and thanks for listening when I explain that there's a pretty good argument to be made that there is no such thing as trophy hunting, and that deer don't retire to a farm in the country when they get old, and that bears don't just eat berries, and wolves aren't actually threatened, but caribou are."


And then I give them some meat. One of them has an old dog with pancreatitis, which means too much fat will kill her. She loves that dog and pays good money for raw venison (which probably comes from New Zealand), so when I give her a bunch of ground up moose and do without some sausage for myself she's grateful, and she understands.


So, my point is like Xenomorph's: not all antis are the same. We'll attract more flies with honey (or a gift or two of meat) than we will with an aggressive attack. So, just like when we're out in the bush, take a breathe and think a bit before pulling the trigger on an anti-hunter. We need to convert them to support hunting. We do that by telling the story (and we've got a good story to tell).




two-feet:


"We need a media campaign. Plain and simple. I envision statistics on conservation $ put forth by hunters...."


If you haven't heard Mahoney talk about this you need to check him out. You're on the same track as he is but he's also trying to figure out the total amount of sustainable meat taken each year by hunters and how far that ripples through the community.


Rob, thanks for this. You've echoed a lot of my own thoughts on this matter. I haven't listened to Mahoney, but have been thinking about this for many years, even before I decided to fully take up hunting.


I consider that there are three types of anti-hunting personalities (not including derivatives of the three major groups):


1. Vegans - I'm lumping everyone into here who thinks that animals shouldn't die at our hands, ever. This group is veritably nonconvertible as the opinions are fundamental to who they are. I actually agree with this group more than the others (not so much with the fact that animals shouldn't die, but at least they have their opinions and can stand by them because of fundamental beliefs rather than lack of education).


2. Those who you described as not wanting animals to suffer, but still eat meat. This is the irreconcilable group that essentially needs to either take their heads out of the sand and recognize that meat comes from animals and that responsibly hunted game does far less damage to the planet than their choice of meat. And, let's face it, cows aren't made of striploins and hamburger patties, no matter what Safeway's meat section tries to tell us.


3. Well-considered "environmentalists". This is a group with whom I have a hard time arguing because it comes from an educated perspective but a difference of opinion. My brother falls into this group. The essential point is that our meat industry has already significantly damaged the planet (arguably irreparably) and that we should therefore be drawing on the product of that industry so that it's not wasted and not further interfering with nature. His essential argument is that having a few thousand people each year out harvesting deer, moose, etc are not having any impact on the production/damage caused by our AgriTerror industry (let's be realistic and not say that all farms/meat/dairy/poultry farming is accomplished responsibly). I tend to agree that that industry won't reduce its output due to me taking a deer from the forest. But I can also make the choice not to eat that meat or to reduce my intake from that industry because it's impossible to effect change without first taking personal steps. So my brother and I (and my dad) are constantly at odds over the ethics of hunting. I see the value in the argument but I don't think that it tells the whole story and therefore doesn't hold up.


One of the catalysts to get me into hunting was actually, of all things, a podcast that I listened to with Eliza Dushku. She hunts (crossbow, I believe) because she takes the position that if you're willing to eat it, you should be willing to kill, skin, gut, etc. If you can't do those things, do you really have a right to enjoy the fruits of the animal, so to speak? That may be a bit "high horsey", but again, a valid point.


And, really, is it so wrong for a compassionate human to NOT want to kill animals, see them suffer, get bloody, etc? There are many things that we all actively enjoy or otherwise engage in that I'm certain that, if scrutinized, might also be seen as hypocritical. For example, we're all standing here calling for stewardship of the land and saying how conservation minded we are; however, I bet more than half of this forum's population roll around the bush in quads, side by sides, or big trucks that guzzle gas (which are also probably used for the daily trip to work and the grocery store). Can we really be so high-minded about our own great environmentalism?


The point is that we all have things to strike chords in our hearts and other things that we just accept as "the way things are", such as buying meat in plastic wrap at the grocery store or driving a V8 gas guzzler.


We can't expect to convert everyone to our point of view, but we can continue to be rational and clear-minded, while expressing our position in a coherent and well-thought out manner. The last thing people need to do is to think that hunters are all violent, self-indulgent jerks. I'm sure many are, but many aren't and hopefully that's the part that we can portray to the public.




We definitely need to raise awareness that the modern hunter is not a beer chugging, sign shooting hill billy with a confederate flag in the back of the pickup and a wicked blood lust. I know that is not a fair comparison for hunters, but that is how a lot of the general public see it.


Agreed. Although, it would be good if we could bring those hillbillies up to speed on what the modern hunter should be...because those hillbillies are still out there and give us all a bad name.

[one-shot-wonder]

Information, whether we absorb it through media, friends and family, on a personal quest, is just that exposure to opinions, facts, arguments. I'm surprised how many times I find myself inserting "but hunting has this benefit and that" in my general day to day life. Wherever I might find myself, and then it's gotten to be known I hunt and people who know me actually pose questions and have a decent conversation to me about it.


Agreed, we can start with our everyday sphere of influence. Most notably our colleagues and clients at work. It's simple I work in an office of 50, after a few years of sharing not only fruit of my labour aka wild game sausage/pepperoni /jerkey/landjaeger, but also photos and stories from a recent holiday excursion or weekend adventure. Soon enough everybody knew this is where my families meat came from as well as benefits to conservation etc. It really doesn't take long assuming you are willing to share about your personal life. It doesn't end there..... As i travel to other branches same thing applies, it's intriguing to see the difference from BC to ALTa.... Rural to metro.
I truly believe many of my colleagues now have a changed outlook as well as an increased knowledge.

[wideopenthrottle]

i like to remind even the venerable vegan that unless they are collecting their greens from the forest where they live then they have caused the displacement (fancy word for killing off) of wildlife and entire ecosystems to allow the growing of their vegies on farmland (no longer wilderness)...but only if they have a high and mighty attitude of course

[Keta1969]

Personally, for me I've given up trying to change peoples perceptions of hunting. I just don't give a rats ass what people think of me and the fact that I hunt. It's what I do and it's how I fed my family and now how my boys are feeding theirs. I guess I'm getting old and ornery but, all those people living in the biggest clearcut in the province that is devoid of game telling me what to do or how to live just piss me off. I don't rub it in their faces so stay out of mine.
I belong to the BCWF and support wildlife causes when I have the time, hopefully more once retired. I do think that the way of life I've enjoyed as far as hunting goes is in jeopardy and I've told my sons this. I've given up hope that all hunters will ever get together and speak as one and really who would listen? You can't make people understand who don't want to listen(think predator control). I know this is a negative post as far as this thread goes but, it's how I see it in the real world.

[wideopenthrottle]

Personally, for me I've given up trying to change peoples perceptions of hunting. I just don't give a rats ass what people think of me and the fact that I hunt. It's what I do and it's how I fed my family and now how my boys are feeding theirs. I guess I'm getting old and ornery but, all those people living in the biggest clearcut in the province that is devoid of game telling me what to do or how to live just piss me off. I don't rub it in their faces so stay out of mine.
I belong to the BCWF and support wildlife causes when I have the time, hopefully more once retired. I do think that the way of life I've enjoyed as far as hunting goes is in jeopardy and I've told my sons this. I've given up hope that all hunters will ever get together and speak as one and really who would listen? You can't make people understand who don't want to listen(think predator control). I know this is a negative post as far as this thread goes but, it's how I see it in the real world.

I look at it like this....if I smile at someone and they don't smile back do I write them off? no.. I will smile at them again next time I see them....eventually they may smile back or perhaps they just pass it along and smile at someone else and so on....if it can work for a smile it can work for a hello and hell, maybe even an idea or concept

[wideopenthrottle]

http://www.kenoradailyminerandnews.com/2016/03/29/locals-start-quarterly-outdoorsman-publication

a couple of my home town bush boys start a national outdoor mag...good on them...I read what their intended message will be and it totally fits this thread I think

[boxhitch]

Agreed. Although, it would be good if we could bring those hillbillies up to speed on what the modern hunter should be...because those hillbillies are still out there and give us all a bad name.Just lost me , what a altitude

[ruger#1]

Just lost me , what a altitude He must be in America. I haven't seen any here in Canada.

[two-feet]

+1 on the Mahoney / Newberg podcast it is legendary

https://itunes.apple.com/ca/podcast/hunt-talk-radio-randy-newberg/id1012713381?mt=2&i=349515298

This should be required listening for all hunters, an articulate and passionate statement on what it means to be a hunter, and perhaps the most effective aguments I have heard as to why hunting is good for people and animals. Mahoney is one of those people that make you glad that he is on our side. Thanks for the recommendation. There are some excellent ambassadors for hunting, we all need to listen and learn from them.

[silveragent]

I came into hunting through shooting. Eight years ago I was living with a vegan, yoga lifestyle woman and I was on my way to that myself but after we split I went in the total opposite direction not out of spite but because I wanted to regain my own identity. After I got into shooting I realized people with guns were not stereotypical hicks but were great people and more than half of my regular friends are from shooting now. Naturally, many of them were hunters so three years ago I decided to get into it. I took my CORE with an outfit called Eat Wild who operate out of East Vancouver and cater to people like me who did not have fathers or grandfathers who hunted. It was really the perfect course because the instructor understood the many reasons why people from Vancouver were turning to hunting in greater numbers:

1) Desire for a 'clean' food source - there were a couple in my course who were the 'my body is my temple' type people who were clearly interested in this part. They were organic everything and hence wanted to truly know the source of their next meat. They grow their own food or get everything from that special farm.
2) Desire to regain or gain core skills - people who have grown up in an industrial / consumer life and now want to know how to build things, grow things, extract things
3) Desire to reconnect with heritage of their grandparents - grandparents who were dead or getting too old to pass on their heritage so their grandchildren want to connect with them before it is too late. Especially if their own parents broke with their grandparent's lifestyle. Similarly, when I took my PAL course, there were a couple women who took the course because they didn't want to lose their grandparent's firearms
4) Desire to get back to nature and truly roughing it - People who wanted to take the next step after coming straight from Mountain Equipment Coop and not just content to pack in their freeze dried meals and ramen
5) Desire for adventure / treating hunting as an extreme sport - Same people who like jumping off cliffs and running cross country marathons in the middle of winter think they are up to it
6) Desire to be different - Aside from the hipsters - nuff said about them - I think this is also a reaction to a decade of political correctness and a synthesis of environmental awareness where the output is no longer lockstep with what Suzuki blats out on Facebook every day. We have a generation of young people who grew up being told one thing and naturally some of them question what they have been taught.

[AgSilver]

Just lost me , what a altitude

If you don't think that:
- some redneck with a beer in one hand and a shotgun in the other shouting at a news camera that "you'll never take my guns!" (not based on actual events, for descriptive purposes only) or,
- careless hunters that leave a mess in the woods (garbage, beer cans, etc) and only harvest the tenderloin, etc or
- worse yet, actual redneck poachers that are just out there for the joy of killing and breaking the law
will be hurting the reputation of hunters, you're failing to see the big picture.

And yes, I'm aware that many of the poachers etc aren't rednecks, but public perception exists regardless.

You may not like my comments, but you would be hard pressed to deny their accuracy as they relate to public perception.

And no, I'm not in America, but I do have family that moved from the LML to northern Alberta because of "too many (insert racial epithet of choice here)" living out here, so I have some familiarity with particular people giving "us" a bad name...and a general familiarity with hillbillies and rednecks.

[boxhitch]

Another Mahoney presentation , very powerful stuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY_2fDJipfM

Only wish the message would get out to more folks

[MattW]

It is very sad. People do not know what is in dairy and chicken feed. Dairy feed has chicken meal. And or porcine = pork meal. One farmer is putting fish meal in his feed. This is how he is getting high omega three. From it.Now is a cow a carnivore? Chicken feed has meat meal in it. I have seen chickens eat mice. Voles. Worms. But nothing meat meal like rendered cattle. Food for thought. I have been working in the feed bussines since I was 17. I am 53 now.
I'm going to have to correct you on this. It is absolutely against the law to have any animal protein/product in cattle feed and has been for many years. Chickens are omnivorous and at times there will be animal product in their feed, same for pork. My family owned a feed mill until recently. If CFIA gets any idea that a mill has put animal product into cattle feed they are in a world of trouble and the fines are enormous. In Abbotsford here one of the mills runs a completely separate mill and fleet of trucks to make cattle feed that's clean of any animal product for the specific purpose of avoiding any trouble with these laws.

I really like most of the thoughts in this thread and share this perspective in a lot of ways. It's good to be a thoughtful hunter and a well spoken champion of our sport/lifestyle. It does surprise me though that in a discussion like this so many people choose to run down the farmer and believe the false and negative propaganda put out there by the very same groups that put out false and negative propaganda about hunting. Certainly there are some farmers with bad practices, just as there are some hunters with bad practices and bad eggs in any group you can think of. The agriculture in our nation is not the evil thing some of you all seem to think.
Sorry for the drift.