On the radio right now - caribou cull

[GoatGuy]

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-february-26-2016-1.3465261/wolf-cull-stirs-clash-of-ethics-pitting-conservation-against-animal-welfare-in-b-c-1.3465308


this is the full episode played earlier

[GoatGuy]

looks like it's done.

You can listen live on:

http://www.cbc.ca/daybreaksouth/

Talking about it now

[GoatGuy]

Comments go here:

https://www.facebook.com/cbcthecurrent

and here

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-february-26-2016-1.3465261/wolf-cull-stirs-clash-of-ethics-pitting-conservation-against-animal-welfare-in-b-c-1.3465308

[Rob Chipman]

Thanks for that. I've said we have to learn from our opponents.

That Tommy Knowles. Smart guy. Hits the right buttons. Uses the right words. Ends by saying he cares about the caribou too, but it's not the wolves' fault. That's a good emotion based sales presentation. I'm thinking of sending that guy a cheque.

In terms of facts it's hard to nail him down, but he says: "Well, the BC Liberals claim they've set aside 2.2 million hectares, or are committed to protecting that, but they've actually protected 108,000 hectares."

Does anyone know the truth on that?


He also said a few things that aren't honest:

-he cares about caribou
-the government only estimates that there are healthy populations of wolves in the province but don't have very much scientific data to actually back that claim up
-"We are adamantly against the hunting of wolves whether it's for a cull program, for trophy hunting, or as quote unquote, “pest control”.


You present him with a government scientist indicating there are lots of wolves and he'll say "just an estimate".
Tell him caribou need help he'll say "not wolves' fault"
Tell him man is in the landscape, for better or worse, and we need to take action to get a satisfactory outcome for everyone (man, caribou, wolves) and he'll say "As long as there is no wolf killing".

Anyway, I'm in a pissed off mood to begin with and that kind of thinking doesn't help.

Bottom line, a lot of themes are repeating themselves in recent threads. This interview has scientists, FN guys and "wildlife activists" talking about a public interest issue. Nothing from hunters or conservationists. That's what's missing. I don't want to bash BCWF. They are us. I don't have much disagreement with the scientists or the FN guy. The wildlife activists are hijacking a name and not doing anyone any good.

Thanks again for posting those links.

[two-feet]

I though the segment was not too bad, typical propaganda from the first fellow as Mr Chipman points out. I thought the chief was well spoken, as were the scientists. The basic fact that was repeated by all is true: the cause of the caribou decline is industrial developement. I support the cull but lets not think for a moment that the BC Libs are doing this for any reason that relates to wildlife, they are doing it to take heat off of their big business pals that are destroying caribou habitat.

[houndogger]

I though the segment was not too bad, typical propaganda from the first fellow as Mr Chipman points out. I thought the chief was well spoken, as were the scientists. The basic fact that was repeated by all is true: the cause of the caribou decline is industrial developement. I support the cull but lets not think for a moment that the BC Libs are doing this for any reason that relates to wildlife, they are doing it to take heat off of their big business pals that are destroying caribou habitat.
Yes and what happens if they can't save the caribou? Anybody wanna take a stab?

[wrenchhead]

Yes and what happens if they can't save the caribou? Anybody wanna take a stab?
The caribou are gone. Sad fact.
We can try these different measures to save the populations but in the end time will tell. They are a beautiful but fragile animal, requiring a certain niech to live in.

[Treed]

Nothing will make a difference at this point, except for maybe certain herds. We can shut down access, stop development, shoot the wolves. We had 30 years to make these choices but chose not to to. It was never about do one thing and not the others except for idealogues; it was always control all three cause one will be the limiting factor and controlling the others won't help. As a great wildlife manager once said "don't do the same thing everywhere, cause if you duck it up once, you are going to duck it up everywhere." Well, we ***ed it up everywhere.

[two-feet]

To admit the caribou are unable to be recovered, and to put these valuable dollars into other conservation programs (central interior moose?) is politically distasteful but perhaps the best use of our resources. But like I say, i think the motivation of our provincial govt is not the conservation of wildlife. They support the grizz hunt (good) and the wolf cull (good) but for the wrong reasons. My opinion of course

[houndogger]

Ya it's more then that. Maybe goatguy would chime in.

[325 wsm]

Wolf sterilization is an effective and acceptable method….Only the alpha male and female breed….if you take a pack of wolves and are only able to kill the majority of them they can repopulate back to original numbers in 2 years. Culls are only effective if you get the entire pack. Start a petitioin threatening the greenies 1000s of you will go out in mass groups and kill all the wolves unless they put their money where their mouth is and pay to sterilize them.

[bearvalley]

Wolf sterilization only works in conjunction with wolf reduction.

The programs where the alphas are sterilized and "some" of the other pack members either sterilized or eliminated has seen an end result of more wolves in the area a very short time after the sterilization/reduction program ends.

The key is 2 wolves per pack to maintain territorial status, with this treatment applied to many packs over a large area.
When the original sterilized ones are gone new wolves will move in to fill the void, hopefully by then the wildlife management correction has been achieved.

[tuner]

Sterilization makes wolves go vegan.

[horshur]

All of it is nonsense! The current state of caribou in southern BC. The Hue and cry is bullshit. The herds have been declining for hundreds of years there is recorded history of it long before BC started to industrialize. Case in point look at the history of Battle mnt in Wells Grey Park. Chilcotins and Shushwaps. Look on google earth where Fight Lake is and Corral Lake imagine trying to herd caribou into it for a slaughter?? You can't for the trees. Do not remain ignorant.
The root of all the BS is political using a "shelter" or "keystone" species to further a particular agenda is how democracy's work these days for public sentiment votes! Politician hedges votes on the caribou or the grizzly bear will even spend some money to prove his/her intent and supplicate the electorate. They attack each other over the keystone species peril. These animals are used as pawns.

Science has shown that a Reindeer herding culture once existed in France.

[GoatGuy]

Sterilization has been effective in reducing wolf populations, but not reducing them enough for caribou pops to respond - at least in BC.

Wolves need to be managed down to a maximum of 3/1000 km2.

Caribou are in trouble all over North America right now - especially the mountain ecotype. This isn't strictly about the two herds that currently have wolf management. The other populations are in decline as well (including those in NTL parks).

Most of the blame can be pointed back at people. Roads, rail ways, oil and gas, logging, mining, cities, reservoirs, and on and on and on are all contributory. We really don't have any populations to borrow from for a transplant now.

Bottom line is if people want caribou in the future they will have to manage predation or start raising caribou in zoos along with tigers, rhinos, pandas etc so future generations can see them in an enclosure.

[dracb]

What everybody knows: "The programs where the alphas are sterilized and "some" of the other pack members either sterilized or eliminated has seen an end result of more wolves in the area a very short time after the sterilization/reduction program ends."

But are these "facts" true or are they dramatic over simplifications of pack/prey dynamics? It seems when I take courses or read research from people that study these facts in the field, those researchers report many exceptions. When food is not abundant pack size is small ( a few animals)and breeding is restricted to perhaps one male and a female with small sized litters. When food is more abundant pack sizes increase and there is a tendency for more than one of the females to breed. When food is super abundant pack sizes can reach a few tens of animals in size and reportedly under the right conditions many of the females will become pregnant. Such packs have even been known to accept wolves that are not genetically related. When pack size exceeds the capability of the prey base to feed it, the noble wolf kills its own young or drives them out of the pack territory resulting in pack size reduction to a point of DYNAMIC balance with the prey base.

Soooo it stands to reason that if one reduces the reproductive capacity of the pack more or less in balance with the available prey base and as a consequence allow the prey base to increase in size one should anticipate the number of wolves will shortly increase to consume said increased prey base UNLESS the manager keeps steriliing and culling i.e. MANAGING.

The same happens with coyote control. Kill a "bunch" of coyotes that are eating your fawns before the coyote breeding season will result in a coyote population that is out of balance with the now proportionately larger prey base. The surviving females will be better fed and litter size will increase (to perhaps double or more than would have been the case for the original larger coyote population) resulting in an larger increase in coyote population (stated as a percentage of the coyote population that entered the breeding season) than would be the case for a similar population more in balance with its prey base.

[325 wsm]

It has been effective in the Yukon regarding the Aishihik Lake caribou herd. I know its not the perfect answer for the caribou but it might be for the antis.