How much do animals suffer when killed?

[alexboyprin]

...and how much suffering is too much? I explain...from my own experience with humans dying in my arms and myself being on the verge of death due to an accident, I think that most of us when victims of blunt trama do not feel much pain due to being in a state of shock. We do not see ourselves dying.

Now, as a hunter, when I think about the animal I've shot, when I arrive near them, I see them taking their last breath and, I turn my back and let them die in peace.
I cannot bring myself to cut their throat or violently shot them in the head. I never saw one suffer for more than a few second.

Yet, in some cultures, they kill the animals (and humans) by cutting their throats. I was told it is painless!!

So, my main question is: how much suffering is too much for your game animal? Do you think their really suffer of does the brain shot down?

In my case, I was broken in pieces and I did not feel any pain at all. Only when I woke up the next day :)!

[Jelvis]

I hear yah alex, I never bin hurt bad so I can't understand that part.
Deer do get shot at and hit hard in wrong spots because of many variables caused by the shooters sight through the scope looks right BOOM! Deer lunges takes off.
Now you do your best to follow it til death. That's humane.
I've seen a mule deer with guts hanging out after a guy's shot hit a branch he dint pick up in the scope. Recoshade and hit the paunch, I tracked it down for him and it was lying down by a tree bleating slowly like a cat meowing. I felt sick raised my trusty 0tt 6 scope on forehead hold steady -- BAM! -- done.
Jel -- I've seen deer with three legs hobbling from getting barbed wire fenced caught up

[Citori54]

...and how much suffering is too much? I explain...from my own experience with humans dying in my arms and myself being on the verge of death due to an accident, I think that most of us when victims of blunt trama do not feel much pain due to being in a state of shock. We do not see ourselves dying.

Now, as a hunter, when I think about the animal I've shot, when I arrive near them, I see them taking their last breath and, I turn my back and let them die in peace.
I cannot bring myself to cut their throat or violently shot them in the head. I never saw one suffer for more than a few second.

Yet, in some cultures, they kill the animals (and humans) by cutting their throats. I was told it is painless!!

So, my main question is: how much suffering is too much for your game animal? Do you think their really suffer of does the brain shot down?

In my case, I was broken in pieces and I did not feel any pain at all. Only when I woke up the next day :)!

I always place a kill shot if the animal is alive when I approach. You state that you can't cut their throat or violently shoot them in the head. How is that any more or less violent than the shot that put them down in the first place? As hunters we have an ethical obligation to minimize an animal's suffering.

[Sofa King]

i don't think any animal feels pain like we do.
humans are the weakest, biggest pussies on the planet.
shit, we stub a toe and we drop to the ground weeping.
animals on the other hand, can be mortally shot and walk or even run away.
and they almost never whine about it either.
it's always made me wonder just how they feel pain?
people say fish pretty much don't feel pain or have a extremely short pain memory.

[Boner]

Jeebus, it sounds like you're hanging out with a bunch of anti hunters. That's similar to what they think. "Violently shot them in the head?" There's nothing wrong with dispatching an animal with a shot to the head.

[goatdancer]

Jeebus, it sounds like you're hanging out with a bunch of anti hunters. That's similar to what they think. "Violently shot them in the head?" There's nothing wrong with dispatching an animal with a shot to the head.

Yeah, maybe the guy should try shooting them gently in the head..............

[Sofa King]

Yeah, maybe the guy should try shooting them gently in the head..............

precisely.
a nice gentle squeeze on the trigger, not a violent pull.

[hoochie]

The head shot thing...
why would you say that a head shot is violent, or make it
a bad thing?
I can assure you, my deer this year didn't know a thing. instant shut down.
Cutting the neck.. Ive never understood. I thought people did it to drain the blood, not as a dispatching method.
Have you ever bled a fish? I assure you the meat tastes way better than if you just bonked it on the head.

[BushBuck]

Jeebus, it sounds like you're hanging out with a bunch of anti hunters. That's similar to what they think. "Violently shot them in the head?" There's nothing wrong with dispatching an animal with a shot to the head.
I second this....

[guest]

And all this time I thought the experts said, fish and animals feel no pain. I would say yes as we would when our lives are at risk, just try to make it as clean kill and fast as possible. I'm sure every ethical Hunter wants this, you just have to finish what you started. Death in the wild by their prey would be far more traumatic in most cases I'm sure.

If it really bothers you ...... you best quit before you hunt any more. But .......

No one if right mind wants any critter to suffer be it slaughter house or out doors. And that includes making finish shots at times.

[dellis]

They suffer much less with a bullet, or broadhead, in the right spot, than they do being torn apart by wolves, or having their hips broken by a car on the highway. You are right to want to kill efficiently and cleanly. Just remember, nature is not nice, we can do better.
Darcy

[.264winmag]

I'd like to think the adrenaline takes over for the animals sake. On poorly placed shots who knows, best just to give em another as quick as possible even if it makes the gearbox look like a cartoon character. As for cutting throat the old man said it doesn't help bleed cause they're already dead, I guess if it's still breathing and you slit it would bleed better but doesn't sound safe. I cut it regardless as the windpipe needs to come out somehow.

[1899]

When I am hunting I know I am trying to kill something and the death I deliver will be far better than anything nature could dish out. Interesting Avatar, given your question.

[snakeplain]

i think that baby deer, moose and cariboo when eaten alive by a pack of wolves, cougar or a bear will suffer alot more than anything else on the planet, just imagine the pain!!

[ajr5406]

"Suffering" is a relative term... I think that there is a difference between what we as humans perceive as suffering, and what we perceive in an animal, given the same pain level.

It's hard because you can't ask an animal if it's experiencing suffering, but I think as humans, our understanding of suffering is so much greater, that we tend anthropomorphize the same view of suffering in animals...

Given that, an ethical kill as quickly and painlessly as possible, is always going to be more "humane" than being eaten alive. Not too many animals in the wild die peacefully of old age...

[scoutlt1]

Could any animal really suffer as much as I did in my first marriage?

I doubt it.

[Bugle M In]

I am sure they feel pain!
Because of that...I really, really hate making a bad shot.
I want to see that animal drop in it's tracks.
I know it doesn't always happen however, and that part does make me feel some real remorse.
But, I know why I hunt, I just won't use the excuse and say" the animal doesn't feel it".
I eat meat, and I enjoy the pursuit....not the killing.
But ya, they feel it, so try to be ethical with the shot.
BMI

[alexboyprin]

I hear yah alex, I never bin hurt bad so I can't understand that part.
Deer do get shot at and hit hard in wrong spots because of many variables caused by the shooters sight through the scope looks right BOOM! Deer lunges takes off.
Now you do your best to follow it til death. That's humane.
I've seen a mule deer with guts hanging out after a guy's shot hit a branch he dint pick up in the scope. Recoshade and hit the paunch, I tracked it down for him and it was lying down by a tree bleating slowly like a cat meowing. I felt sick raised my trusty 0tt 6 scope on forehead hold steady -- BAM! -- done.
Jel -- I've seen deer with three legs hobbling from getting barbed wire fenced caught up

...thanks for the reply. I see you understand my point.

[alexboyprin]

I always place a kill shot if the animal is alive when I approach. You state that you can't cut their throat or violently shoot them in the head. How is that any more or less violent than the shot that put them down in the first place? As hunters we have an ethical obligation to minimize an animal's suffering.

I think that my reluctance do cut their throats of shoot them in the head during their last minutes on earth is that I have been immersed for many years in other cultures that do not see life the way we see it. For exemple, I saw in a Thai village, a pig getting killed for food. They placed him In a very small cage, then a guy stabbed the pig behind the front leg with a very sparp and thin blade. Then we waited. At first, nothing happened, then, the blood began to flow from the mouth, then, the pig began to buckle violently, more and more violently until he was banging the top of the cage. Then, he collapse dead! It took about 3 minutes.
The Thai could have killed him more "violently" more suddenly, but, they seemed to believe that this was not too inhuman.

[alexboyprin]

Jeebus, it sounds like you're hanging out with a bunch of anti hunters. That's similar to what they think. "Violently shot them in the head?" There's nothing wrong with dispatching an animal with a shot to the head.

I do not know why I think it is too violent. I like to leave the animal to die in peace. a peaceful death. May be I am wrong.

[Buckmeister]

Interesting thread.
I think animals hurt and receive pain just as much as we do. It's God's gift to us and them, otherwise we would be damaging ourselves and never know it. But, I do think we humans can really ham it up sometimes so we can receive sympathy. But I do agree that there is a difference between injury that is not fatal, and injury that is fatal or injury that is beyond our pain threshold. And this goes for animals and humans alike.

There is the adrenaline factor as mentioned. The shock factor as mentioned. Some death is near instant, other death takes under a minute, other death takes minutes or even hours. Slitting the throat cuts the main artery, clogs the throat with blood and prevents them breathing and they die much quicker, so I say it's a form of mercy killing, read on below as I mention death by asphyxiation and it's affects.

Here is a description of death I have witnessed in animals only. Never witnessed a human die before so have nothing to say.
-Shot a deer once at base of spine, it dropped like a sack of hammers and didn't move a muscle. Walked up to it and it's eyes were still clear, then it blinked, but it was not breathing as far as I could tell, so I went to go get my vehicle and just let it die in peace.
-Have shot several deer and an elk with lung shots. All died in less than a minute due to asphyxiation. All struggled to get air, they do the neck extension thing. I heard from someone who had served as a prison guard and had studied the various methods of capital punishment, he said he learned that when someone is asphyxiated, let say from drowning, that they enter a state of euphoria before they die and that it is one of the nicer ways.
-And then there were pets. We had a very old cat who was weak and took a terrible fall from a railing to some stairs down below. Either broke bones or received internal injury. When you touched her or moved her she cried in pain. She lay dying in my wifes lap, labored breathing, wincing at pain, then lifted her head and took one long mournful meow and then collapsed and breathed her last.
-I had a near similar incident with my parents cat. He was an old outdoor cat and showing signs of sickness and even senility. I found him at the edge of their property about 15 feet from the road. I don't know if he had been hit by a car or something, but when I approached him, he seemed to recognize me, but his body was convulsing/shuttering very oddly. He too looked up at me, meowed, and collapsed dead.

And then there is the animals I have seen that are injured, but far from death. They sit still, shut their eyes tightly (like wincing in pain), and just bide their time. Others, these were hunted animals, just show signs of running on adrenaline.

[alexboyprin]

..Thank you for the nice comment Buckmeister!

[alexboyprin]

Jelvis. Do you think the HALAL method of killing should be allowed in Canada? We have a tradition of not making the animals suffer but the new immigrants like the muslims insist in having their animals killed this way?

[alexboyprin]

i don't think any animal feels pain like we do.
humans are the weakest, biggest pussies on the planet.
shit, we stub a toe and we drop to the ground weeping.
animals on the other hand, can be mortally shot and walk or even run away.
and they almost never whine about it either.
it's always made me wonder just how they feel pain?
people say fish pretty much don't feel pain or have a extremely short pain memory.

...I had an experience with humans. one died in my arms. He was in shock and he did not seem to be aware of anything that happen to him. The other guy had a leg pull apart by a car. He was very much awake the whole time and he was very aggressive but he was not feelling the pain as we cut his jeans and try to help him. The next time I saw him, he did not remember anything about the accident.

[sawmill]

I do not know why I think it is too violent. I like to leave the animal to die in peace. a peaceful death. May be I am wrong.

Pretty hard to die peacefully when you lung shot it. Stand there for 5 minutes watching it bleed out inside.Yeah,real peacefull. Man the hell up. Always put a finish shot in the head if it`s laying there gasping like a fish. And nobody who knows anything cuts the throat from ear to ear,that`s movie bullshit.Stick them at the base of the thoat and into the chest where the top ribs come together, you will cut the aorta.AND... If you shoot them in the heart/lung area there is no need to bleed them,it`s already done inside.
Oh,and yeah.You are wrong. Maybe take up gardening instead of hunting.

[Viper]

Some people think TOO MUCH!!!

[Bugle M In]

My friend and I both shot 2 bucks at the same time.
Mine ran into the thickets, with the reaction that it had just been hit.
My partners deer, did the back and forth run out of confusion.
It ended up being hit several times by him....not pretty to watch, but than it died.
We than turned to look for my buck.
We found him not far inside the trees, lying there, obviously too hurt to move, but still upright.
My hunting partner just turned, looked at me and said "here have smoke", as to say, the buck is done, just give him a few minutes
to pass away.
I just looked at him and said "no way", I need to put him out of his misery/pain.
I walked up to him, put the barrel to his head, behind the ear, and pulled the trigger.
Done!
Oddly, I felt an overwhelming satisfaction, that I had done the right thing.
Had I waited til it expired, I think that would have left me with guilt, and a disturbing memory forever.
Cutting it's throat would not have been clean, as that still would have taken time.
I was satisfied with the way I did it, even though I still regret that it didn't drop on the spot with the first shot.
I took that deer apart immediately, and it was hung fast, so the blood would drain from the meat ASAP.
The only reason I think they bleed an animal to death, is for that reason.....but...
that to me doesn't make it ethical, it just makes it easier to process the meat.
As another poster stated, sometimes the game runs off of adrenaline....for sure!
But, if I find that creature still alive, regardless of how close it is to death,
if I can put a bullet in the head...I will.
I will never let it just expire over time...long or short.
That is me, and just what I have experienced, and what I can live with and tolerate in my mind.
Others will differ, as we all are different in make up and self being.
On a side note...
I had the unfortunate experience of having to make the choice of withdrawing the feeding tube from my mom.
No food, no water....she had had several brain bleeds in the brain over several days.
I was told she would be gone in 3 to 4 days.
Well, they were wrong....she lasted 16 days.
And all I can say is, that wasn't pretty to watch a body finish itself off.
I sat there, thinking, this isn't right.
If this is a deer, suffering like this, I know what I would have done immediately, with guilt or persecution.
But, this was my mom, how can that be done to her by me, or for me to even think that way.
All I can say is this....
That death that was apposed upon her and for me to witness.....it was not humane.

[khoffnbud]

I shoot, they fall. That's about the extent of the whole process.

[alexboyprin]

Pretty hard to die peacefully when you lung shot it. Stand there for 5 minutes watching it bleed out inside.Yeah,real peacefull. Man the hell up. Always put a finish shot in the head if it`s laying there gasping like a fish. And nobody who knows anything cuts the throat from ear to ear,that`s movie bullshit.Stick them at the base of the thoat and into the chest where the top ribs come together, you will cut the aorta.AND... If you shoot them in the heart/lung area there is no need to bleed them,it`s already done inside.
Oh,and yeah.You are wrong. Maybe take up gardening instead of hunting.

sawmill...you are sooo arrogant! I not reply to "knows-it-all!

[Ryo]

In north Uganda, goats are slaughtered much like chickens - hung up by their hind legs still alive, and cut at the throat. You hold the mouth shut to muffle the screams and keep it from tossing too much. Every drop of blood is collected in a bucket. We might be horrified by the inhumane method, but my Ugandan friends would be horrified by our waste.

Ever eaten inside-out braided lower intestine????

[alexboyprin]

My friend and I both shot 2 bucks at the same time.
Mine ran into the thickets, with the reaction that it had just been hit.
My partners deer, did the back and forth run out of confusion.
It ended up being hit several times by him....not pretty to watch, but than it died.
We than turned to look for my buck.
We found him not far inside the trees, lying there, obviously too hurt to move, but still upright.
My hunting partner just turned, looked at me and said "here have smoke", as to say, the buck is done, just give him a few minutes
to pass away.
I just looked at him and said "no way", I need to put him out of his misery/pain.
I walked up to him, put the barrel to his head, behind the ear, and pulled the trigger.
Done!
Oddly, I felt an overwhelming satisfaction, that I had done the right thing.
Had I waited til it expired, I think that would have left me with guilt, and a disturbing memory forever.
Cutting it's throat would not have been clean, as that still would have taken time.
I was satisfied with the way I did it, even though I still regret that it didn't drop on the spot with the first shot.
I took that deer apart immediately, and it was hung fast, so the blood would drain from the meat ASAP.
The only reason I think they bleed an animal to death, is for that reason.....but...
that to me doesn't make it ethical, it just makes it easier to process the meat.
As another poster stated, sometimes the game runs off of adrenaline....for sure!
But, if I find that creature still alive, regardless of how close it is to death,
if I can put a bullet in the head...I will.
I will never let it just expire over time...long or short.
That is me, and just what I have experienced, and what I can live with and tolerate in my mind.
Others will differ, as we all are different in make up and self being.
On a side note...
I had the unfortunate experience of having to make the choice of withdrawing the feeding tube from my mom.
No food, no water....she had had several brain bleeds in the brain over several days.
I was told she would be gone in 3 to 4 days.
Well, they were wrong....she lasted 16 days.
And all I can say is, that wasn't pretty to watch a body finish itself off.
I sat there, thinking, this isn't right.
If this is a deer, suffering like this, I know what I would have done immediately, with guilt or persecution.
But, this was my mom, how can that be done to her by me, or for me to even think that way.
All I can say is this....
That death that was apposed upon her and for me to witness.....it was not humane.

thank you for sharing your experiences with us.

[alexboyprin]

The head shot thing...
why would you say that a head shot is violent, or make it
a bad thing?
I can assure you, my deer this year didn't know a thing. instant shut down.
Cutting the neck.. Ive never understood. I thought people did it to drain the blood, not as a dispatching method.
Have you ever bled a fish? I assure you the meat tastes way better than if you just bonked it on the head.

as far as I can remember, my last 4 deers that were hit in the lungs did not need another shot. by the time I reach them they were dead. may be I was just lucky. but I that is the way I like.

[300rum700]

I guarantee a bullet to the chest hurts way less than getting eaten ass first by a bear or having the back of their legs ripped apart from a pack of wolves. I doubt there's any death in nature as humane as a bullet.

[Sofa King]

an interesting comparison, is bowhunting.
most wounded deer are then left to die, rather than pursue them and risk them running farther.
by most thinking in the replys on here, that is cruel and unethical.

[Bugle M In]

an interesting comparison, is bowhunting.
most wounded deer are then left to die, rather than pursue them and risk them running farther.
by most thinking in the replys on here, that is cruel and unethical.

No, I disagree.
Bow hunting is different.
I choose to hunt with rifle mostly because my shoulder is smashed, though I suppose I could use a crossbow.
But, since I carry a rifle, I have the option to use a bullet to finish it off, if the unfortunate is needed.
Bow hunters don't have that option, unless they carry a sidearm ( and I know many who have, and not always legally,
although I don't know if bow hunters can use a gun during a bow only to finish off game. I would have to check the regs,
but I suspect they can't...)
This thread was more about if an animal feels pain etc.
I don't hold bow hunters in a lower category for any reason.
They don't have the option, so you have to go with what is.
What is for me, as a rifle hunter, is to finish off an animal and not let it suffer a "prolonged death"
That's all.
Let's not make it more than it is.
Rifle and bow are 2 different scenarios for each group.
I respect bow hunter a lot, and the way they hunt.
Bleeding to death from a bow is the only option for them, and possibly cutting the throat if a gun is not allowed.
For me...with gun in hand....it is the right thing to do, because "I can".

[Bernie O]

Regarding the original question, do they feel pain? Anybody ever listen to a bear after they have been hit, They cry louder than any human.

[skibum]

Prey animals have a survival mechanism that helps them deal with pain when being torn apart ...... heard of a story where a PH went into a state of euphoria when being attacked by a lion.


Not sure how a bullet from 100yards applies to this

[375shooter]

Regarding the original question, do they feel pain? Anybody ever listen to a bear after they have been hit, They cry louder than any human.

In my experience, whenever you hear this bawl, you know the bear has been hit well and has only seconds to live. My thought is that this bawl may be more from fear than pain. He knows that something is wrong but cannot understand what it is.

[Sofa King]

No, I disagree.
Bow hunting is different.
I choose to hunt with rifle mostly because my shoulder is smashed, though I suppose I could use a crossbow.
But, since I carry a rifle, I have the option to use a bullet to finish it off, if the unfortunate is needed.
Bow hunters don't have that option, unless they carry a sidearm ( and I know many who have, and not always legally,
although I don't know if bow hunters can use a gun during a bow only to finish off game. I would have to check the regs,
but I suspect they can't...)
This thread was more about if an animal feels pain etc.
I don't hold bow hunters in a lower category for any reason.
They don't have the option, so you have to go with what is.
What is for me, as a rifle hunter, is to finish off an animal and not let it suffer a "prolonged death"
That's all.
Let's not make it more than it is.
Rifle and bow are 2 different scenarios for each group.
I respect bow hunter a lot, and the way they hunt.
Bleeding to death from a bow is the only option for them, and possibly cutting the throat if a gun is not allowed.
For me...with gun in hand....it is the right thing to do, because "I can".

you can't change it just to suit you though.
it's either ethical or unethical to let an animal die slowly as opposed to quickly ending it's suffering.
the choice to use a bow is also the choice to prolong it's death in most instances.
maybe some CHOOSE NOT to use a bow largely due to the slower death and higher risk of an injured animal getting away.
i wasn't suggesting that bow-hunters should be held in a lower category for any reason.
but, you can't think a slower death is then somehow not as unethical simply because it was due to being arrowed.

[Sofa King]

Regarding the original question, do they feel pain? Anybody ever listen to a bear after they have been hit, They cry louder than any human.

good point.
and i think it maybe shows the differences in animals.
rabbits also squeal bloody-murder.
we know that almost every animal is capable of vocalization, yet some, deer for instance, show almost no feelings to the pain in many instances.
we know they are hurt, and in almost all hunting scenarios fatally, yet they seem to almost not even notice it until they collapse dead.

[budismyhorse]

To the OP..... The other cultures you've observed would likely shoot those animals in the head if they had the technology cheap. Fact is the large majority of earth's inhabitants do not or cannot own firearms or acquire ammo cheaply. Therefore they are forced to squeeze food in a cage, stab it and wait for it to slowly expire (seen it first hand by folks in SEA.... It is grim)...... Key word is forced. Because if they had a choice they would put one in its brain like any slaughterhouse does a thousand times a day.

Consider if you opened up your own butcher shop and advertised you kill your animals by stabbing them in a cage and letting them "die in peace" for a few mins.

How many people would buy steak there? I think they would walk down the street and buy meat from a butcher who kills their animals humanely with as little suffering as possible.

I don't think they feel pain like we do, they go into shock and fight or flight takes over. But I do think they are aware of what's happening and it's only right to make it stop ASAP. Walk up, one in the ear.

Ask someone who works at an abattoir..... I'd be interested in their response.

[Dougielightning]

Working in the bush I see lots of road killed deer. Recently I seen a small buck dragging himself off the road obviously spined or at least very broken. Only thought process in my head was to dispatch the animal as fast as possible, he was clearly suffering. One good crack with a pelasky was what I used between the antlers did the job as this was the only heavy tool I had in the work truck, never thought about my decision till now, was a automatic reaction that just made sense. I'm sure they suffer without a doubt, and it is a normal reaction to dispatch a animal as quickly as possible when required

[Jelvis]

ATTENTION: Do not attempt to cut any deer or mooses throat unless it is completely dead.
If it's on the ground after the shot still breathing do not and I repeat do not attempt a throat slice. You could be killed or maimed by a living animal.
Jel -- An antler in the throat or eye BAM just like that. Don't be hasty after the shot puts it down or you know you hit it.

[Jelvis]

In slaughter houses in the 60's or so they hung pigs, smaller ones by the back legs and while still alive and squirming hanging head down the butcher sticks the wiener pig in the juggler vein and catches the blood as it spurts out and the pig dies.
Then they make blood sausage out of it's blood, one butcher had a shot glass and drank the hot blood as it dripped out of the swine's main vein.
Some people love pork.
Jelly ( The Chosen )

[SSG-man]

The outdoor movie thread reminded me of the guy that lived with deer and they accepted him as a non threat to the herd, so he was able to study them closely.

When a fawn was killed (by predators I think) the mother would come back to the sight to mourn the loss while the herd grazed.
Also when the big old buck was killed by hunters the guy actually helped them load the old buck and told them the story of the herd. They were surprised at his studies, probably thought he was nuts too.
The big buck incidentally was not the leader, but one of the older does was the matriarch. They visibly displayed signs of pain and loss and he had it filmed and recorded.

Definitely food for thought.

[alexboyprin]

Could any animal really suffer as much as I did in my first marriage?

I doubt it.

+1 on that :)

[alexboyprin]

In north Uganda, goats are slaughtered much like chickens - hung up by their hind legs still alive, and cut at the throat. You hold the mouth shut to muffle the screams and keep it from tossing too much. Every drop of blood is collected in a bucket. We might be horrified by the inhumane method, but my Ugandan friends would be horrified by our waste.

Ever eaten inside-out braided lower intestine????

+1 that is why I wrote that. I also have experience on other coutries and the people their do not seem to see "suffering" the same way we do. we are big bleeding hearth here in Canada. buying our meat wrapped in plastic.

[alexboyprin]

To the OP..... The other cultures you've observed would likely shoot those animals in the head if they had the technology cheap. Fact is the large majority of earth's inhabitants do not or cannot own firearms or acquire ammo cheaply. Therefore they are forced to squeeze food in a cage, stab it and wait for it to slowly expire (seen it first hand by folks in SEA.... It is grim)...... Key word is forced. Because if they had a choice they would put one in its brain like any slaughterhouse does a thousand times a day.

Consider if you opened up your own butcher shop and advertised you kill your animals by stabbing them in a cage and letting them "die in peace" for a few mins.

How many people would buy steak there? I think they would walk down the street and buy meat from a butcher who kills their animals humanely with as little suffering as possible.

I don't think they feel pain like we do, they go into shock and fight or flight takes over. But I do think they are aware of what's happening and it's only right to make it stop ASAP. Walk up, one in the ear.

Ask someone who works at an abattoir..... I'd be interested in their response.

I do hate to see animals suffer. when I was saying that I wait for him to expire I was talking about a few second left to die. but, that brings me to HALAL killing. don't you think it is cruel? do you think it should be allowed in Canada? because there are more and more HALAL slaughter hourse than ever in the western world now.

[B.C.Boy(100%)]

I heard from someone who had served as a prison guard and had studied the various methods of capital punishment, he said he learned that when someone is asphyxiated, let say from drowning, that they enter a state of euphoria before they die and that it is one of the nicer ways.

It's true.
I was six at the time and on vacation with my family, I had been playing with the bigger kids at this pool in Aberdeen Idaho and decided I'd try the diving board since the bigger kids were doing it and it looked like fun, off I went and then the next couple of kids kept landing on me, keeping me down, I couldn't get back up for air, I choked under water which wasn't very long at all, and then I was sitting on the pool floor in the most peaceful states I have ever been in to this date, nothing has ever come close to the feeling since.
I sat there for about a minute staring off at a black mark on the pool wall it seemed like it was getting bigger, and then blacked out as my Aunt grabbed my arm, she had dove down and grabbed me.
I awoke on the pool deck coughing and spitting/puking up water, and my Aunt over top of me, she had brought me back.
I was incredibly tired right after that.

[alexboyprin]

ATTENTION: Do not attempt to cut any deer or mooses throat unless it is completely dead.
If it's on the ground after the shot still breathing do not and I repeat do not attempt a throat slice. You could be killed or maimed by a living animal.
Jel -- An antler in the throat or eye BAM just like that. Don't be hasty after the shot puts it down or you know you hit it.

Hey, Jelvis. if, according to most people on this forum, we should not let an animal suffer more than 1 second, why the 30 minutes waiting rules? :).Doesn't the animal suffer unduly during this 30 minutes of wait? :)

[gmachine19]

I think they do suffer for that few minutes they lay there dying. But like someone already mentioned in this thread, it's more "humane" than being eaten alive by predators.

The first ever deer I saw shot this year kinda proved that point to me. My buddy shot a deer about 60 yrds away (with a 270) in the head and the bullet knocked the deer out but the skull deflected the bullet! As we approached the deer, we saw it trying to get up. I had to slit the throat to kill it. As soon as my sharp knife entered the throat, I can feel the deer trembling. My knife was so sharp that the deer's throat and everything inside it offered no resistance...

After seeing this, I vowed to myself to never take any head shots. So when it was my turn to shoot, I got a perfect double lung shot on a 4x3. We gave it 15 minutes do bleed out and when I got there, it was dead.

[alexboyprin]

It's true.
I was six at the time and on vacation with my family, I had been playing with the bigger kids at this pool in Aberdeen Idaho and decided I'd try the diving board since the bigger kids were doing it and it looked like fun, off I went and then the next couple of kids kept landing on me, keeping me down, I couldn't get back up for air, I choked under water which wasn't very long at all, and then I was sitting on the pool floor in the most peaceful states I have ever been in to this date, nothing has ever come close to the feeling since.
I sat there for about a minute staring off at a black mark on the pool wall it seemed like it was getting bigger, and then blacked out as my Aunt grabbed my arm, she had dove down and grabbed me.
I awoke on the pool deck coughing and spitting/puking up water, and my Aunt over top of me, she had brought me back.
I was incredibly tired right after that.

...yes. that is one of my point. we do not "see" ourselves dying. so are the animals.

[alexboyprin]

I think they do suffer for that few minutes they lay there dying. But like someone already mentioned in this thread, it's more "humane" than being eaten alive by predators.

The first ever deer I saw shot this year kinda proved that point to me. My buddy shot a deer about 60 yrds away (with a 270) in the head and the bullet knocked the deer out but the skull deflected the bullet! As we approached the deer, we saw it trying to get up. I had to slit the throat to kill it. As soon as my sharp knife entered the throat, I can feel the deer trembling. My knife was so sharp that the deer's throat and everything inside it offered no resistance...

After seeing this, I vowed to myself to never take any head shots. So when it was my turn to shoot, I got a perfect double lung shot on a 4x3. We gave it 15 minutes do bleed out and when I got there, it was dead.

...so you let the poor animal suffer for 15 minutes? :)...just joking but I want to make a point with the others here!

[decker9]

If it's breathing, I keep shooting, given the aproprpriate shot. If I walk up and it's still alive, I put one behind the ear asap. Suffering does not only mean feeling pain, the feel of helplessness, laying there bleeding out, some strange 2 legged thing walking up to you holding some goofy looking loud stick, that's suffering, and no animal should go threw it anymore then it has to while under the watch of someone who can end it right there on the spot. The animal is not at peace until it has passed, imo.

If I was in the animals hooves, put one behind my ear please.

[Walksalot]

i don't think any animal feels pain like we do.
humans are the weakest, biggest pussies on the planet.
shit, we stub a toe and we drop to the ground weeping.
animals on the other hand, can be mortally shot and walk or even run away.
and they almost never whine about it either.
it's always made me wonder just how they feel pain?
people say fish pretty much don't feel pain or have a extremely short pain memory.

I don't think I can agree with that. Animals do feel pain because they have a central nervous system. It is a combination of shock and an incredible will to survive. They are desperately seeking refuge in the forest which is their home. We have seen that in humans when injured in a war situations, a human being's incredible will to survive, terribly injured and trying desperately to get away. We have seen that in bad car accidents where people with broken limbs and internal injuries do incredible feats of strength and pain management in a will to survive. When I hear of an animal being wounded and not recovered I can't help but feel very sad for the animal. I have heard people, I won't call them hunters, talking about and laughing about a deer they had wounded. I have to be honest, I want to take that person, beat the crap out of them and wrap their weapon around a tree but I am civilized and civilized shouldn't do that....... very often.

[alexboyprin]

...so you let the poor animal suffer for 15 minutes? :)...just joking but I want to make a point with the others here!

the is a man who expired in my arms and it took him more than 15 minutes. should I have shoot him in the head? Even when I brought him to the doctor the doctor did nothing at all.

[scoutlt1]

the is a man who expired in my arms and it took him more than 15 minutes. should I have shoot him in the head? Even when I brought him to the doctor the doctor did nothing at all.

Shouldn't you be out trapping or something? :)

[SSG-man]

You're derailing your own thread... need to start a different one.



the is a man who expired in my arms and it took him more than 15 minutes. should I have shoot him in the head? Even when I brought him to the doctor the doctor did nothing at all.

[Buckmeister]

After seeing this, I vowed to myself to never take any head shots. So when it was my turn to shoot, I got a perfect double lung shot on a 4x3. We gave it 15 minutes do bleed out and when I got there, it was dead.

In the last 6 years, using my old .303 with 180 grain bullets, I shot a mulie at 20 yards, a white tail at 40 yards, another white tail at 80 yards, and a cow elk at 40 yards, all perfect double lungers with the exception of the elk being a single lung quartering shot. All died within a minute. Also had about 3 head/neck shots where the animal was down instantly and out within a minute. I prefer the lung shot if I can get it.

The weirdest one I have ever seen was witnessing my friend shot his 1st ever deer, a mulie. We found him bedded down about 30-35 yards away, uphill to the right. My buddy was shooting a 30-30 with heavy grain bullets. He went for a neck/head shot, but his bullet grazed the deer, just passing under the thick neck skin. The deer launched backwards out of his bed taking a roll or two, got to his feet and stumbled down the hill to our right and actually get closer to us. The deer stopped, looking very dazed and not looking at us at all. My friend shot again but missed. This prompted the deer to go a little further down the hill until he got to the trail we were standing on. The deer still looked incredibly dazed. He would look down the hill, then quickly turn himself to look up the hill, but never at us. It was like watching a person sleep walk or being delirious with a fever. My friend took a 3rd shot and the deer dropped and died right there, taking less than a minute to expire. I gutted the deer for my friend. This was when I discovered how bad of a shot he really was and I was totally surprised that this deer actually died. Why? Because his third shot hit no vitals whatsoever, it broke one of the last ribs and took out both tenderloins. I found the bullet sitting under some fat just before the anus. I think a combo of pain and shock killed this deer, or that's my guess anyways.

[Jelvis]

You wait after the shot when you hit a deer and it buckles up into a high back and runs off.
The reason you wait? You saw the buck there in the bush and up and a-i-m-e-d BAM!
Deers bin hit, now give it time, mark spot you shot from, find spot the deer first bled.
Wait, even tho you want to hurry after the buck, stop sit or stand. Relax a minute. Think.
When you wait it's better than running after it right away. The deer will run and then stop and lay down if you wait for twenty minutes or so and go real slow following the blood.
The deer will lay down depending on where and how hard the bullet hit it's body.
The harder hit it will lay down. So give it twenty minutes or so, if you can cuz it's not easy when the adrenalin is pumping after first seeing the monster buck looking at you thru the thicket and BOOM! Off he goes and now? You do as above, mark the spot you shot from.
J ( Think, slow down after the shot ) rest for twenty if possible then slowly and quietly find the deer's blood trail and follow looking ahead for signs of a deer, Do Not leave blood trail, follow the blood, and go step for step to the bucks where about's and be ready to either shoot at the wounded buck or find his lifeless body crumpled up and his massive antlers twisting his swollen neck into the buck brush.
Jelly Von Tracker -- blood trail means you hit the deer or it was already bleeding, now find it.

[alexboyprin]

Shouldn't you be out trapping or something? :)

I went yesterday and placed 20 coyotes snares. I hope to catch some and that they do not suffer too much! I am so afraid of being un-ethical! :)

[Jelvis]

Read your BC Hunting Regulations and use this for a guide for legal and humane hunting regions and rules.
If you use and follow these simple plans and regs in all Mu's of BC there will be no fear of making a dum decision.
When your driving down a back forest road hunting for deer and or walking in the bush you always keep your head about you the best you can with being as calm as you can.
If you see a deer standing by the road your driving or hiking in the woods and see a few deer and ones a four point mule. Think! Clean kill shot or nothing! Get a rest for the rifle on a tree, to steady and put the cross hairs on a vital area, check background, if safe, KAHBOOM!
The big buck will move and shutter immediately when you hit it. BAM! Then go down or go a ways or both.
Always follow up your shot, you could have made a clean shot in the vital area and the deer goes fifty yards in the bush which is a ways to go and find with all the bush, logs aand windfalls. Always follow up on a shot because sometimes the impact of the bullet will be in a vital area and maybe not much blood on the ground right now. This must be done to maintain your conscience as a good hunter who respects the animals he or she takes for sustenance. Clean steady rested aim, and crisp sharp release of the trigger, on target, CRACK!
If you missed it the buck would look quick and run off the other deer following..in most scenarios like this butt and a real big butt..
Sometimes the situation changes in the forested areas. How far from the road etc.
How hot is it or cold? Big buck or lighter antlerless animal? By myself or with some one?
Do I drag it or hang it and come back with some one to help drag? Do I skin it or leave it on? What about ravens and coyotes eating it if I leave it overnight?
Think of these things b4 you pull the trigger at a muley in the bush, but at home first, then you won't get as much "buck fever" when you see the bone.
J( Imagine Situations that are going to happen ) in dah bush with the mules and moose.
Then when you see that buck or bull in open season the process of what you planned will activate and make you ready for the steady kill shot. POW!
Jelly say, POW really loud right now, pretend your aiming your rifle at a bones and crockit mule or moose and say POW!

[Chopper]

They don't when I shoot them , My 300wsm with 180's DESTROY deer ... face plant into the snow ... don't even twitch

DONE !

[Walksalot]

I went yesterday and placed 20 coyotes snares. I hope to catch some and that they do not suffer too much! I am so afraid of being un-ethical! :)
I hope you own the trap line where you put out the snares.

[alexboyprin]

I hope you own the trap line where you put out the snares.

No! :)...I do not have a trap line! But, I got the permission to trap on a 700 acres private farm! Oh...bliss! :)

[Omenator]

Out of all the ways to die as an animal, I'd pick a bullet over anything. Humans and animals are constructed very similarly physically, so there is no reason to assume they don't feel pain. All my deer have been dead when I've found them, but if they were still alive when I got there you can be sure they'd get a finishing shot in the brain.
As for the question about halal slaughtering, I don't like it and think it causes more suffering than necessary.

[alexboyprin]

Out of all the ways to die as an animal, I'd pick a bullet over anything. Humans and animals are constructed very similarly physically, so there is no reason to assume they don't feel pain. All my deer have been dead when I've found them, but if they were still alive when I got there you can be sure they'd get a finishing shot in the brain.
As for the question about halal slaughtering, I don't like it and think it causes more suffering than necessary.

nice comment thanks! we do (animalS and humans) feels pain. and I would not like to be torture. but I think that, with a bullet in the lungs, the pain, do not last long, because one cannot breath very well, then, the brain lack oxygen, then, the heart stop. = death!

[bpeters]

in my non professional opinion an animal being shot would be similar to being in a sleeper hold, the principal is the same, robbing the brain of oxygen, so things would just fade and go black the same way a person would if they were in a chokehold

[wideopenthrottle]

never been a fan of watching animals in their death throws....birds and small game get a neck ringing...if necessary, large game get another round to the head (I can tell they are not suffering when gunpowder smoke is coming out their nose and throat)...I have done the throat slice on 3 deer...the first two were smaller bucks that were spine shot....stepped on the one antler, stab and push out to slice both jugulars as well as the wind pipe (definitely felt like I was taking a risk)...on the last doe I tried to slice the neck, i stepped on its ear but it slipped out as I tried to complete the slice and I ended up badly dulling my knife on a rock to complete the cut...I resolved to just do a head shot if they are down but still moving....if for no other reason, it gets the process moving faster and gets you back hunting sooner (if not tagged out)

[Ltbullken]

I dunno, but this helped my understanding...

http://movieweb.com/movie/over-the-hedge/rosebud/

[Dougielightning]

Best three threads of 2016 videos and pictures helped me along with a better understanding of things discussed, don't be to serious Alex, read back all your posts before being to critical of anybody else. Hope you stick around the site though, Alls good in the hood ��

[hunting2014]

Sounds like a BS post to me! Who thinks you have to head shoot animals when you approach? Don't answer this question. Smells like anti-hunter at work.

[hunter1947]

Animals do suffer many of times I have heard them cry when I have shot them its a cry that comes within the animal it is sad to hear..

[hunter1947]

They don't when I shoot them , My 300wsm with 180's DESTROY deer ... face plant into the snow ... don't even twitch

DONE !

That's the way to do it try to put a shot into the animal that put the lights out right away..

[835]

im pretty sure it hurts to die..... but i bet it hurts less to get shot then eaten by a cougar....

[Bugle M In]

That's the way to do it try to put a shot into the animal that put the lights out right away..

Sadly, although we all like to see that as the result of pulling the trigger, it doesn't always happen.
I took the bottom end of the heart out on a bull elk on the first shot, yet he still ran for a couple hundred yards.
It was out in the open, and when he went down, he laid there gasping for air, still trying to get up.
He was on the other side of a waist high river, and the opportunity to put another shot in him was not present from the
position he was in.
Bang, Flop, lights out, is what we try for, and should be at the forefront every time before we pull the trigger.
But, it doesn't always happen.
But again, I wish I could have just walked up and put one behind the ears.

[walks with deer]

This thread is to morbid for me I finish what I started and say sorry and thank you.
Some days I feel guilty tell I start to cook than I am proud.....sorry buddy's but you taste well.

[Jelvis]

After you shoot at the deer and it jolts and jumps and runs off, mark spot you shot from then go and check for blood at the place the buck was standing. You find blood and hair on he ground so now you wait, why? Because the wounded animal will lay down. If you go after the deer fast the deer sees you following and won't lay down until it runs itself down to it's last breath. Could be a mile.
You wait so to save that long heated chase -- for twenty minutes then walk real slow following blood but look ahead on knolls as you walk slow but do not leave blood trail. You will find the deer piled up most of the time a few yards away. The best shot placement is crucial to drop an animal -- behind the shoulder and low BOOM! Heart shot the heart hangs down inside the deer. Behind the brisket.
Jelly ( Crack ) Shooter

[IronNoggin]

... humans are the weakest, biggest pussies on the planet.

http://forum.flybc.ca/style_emoticons/default/blahblah1.gif

[hunter1947]

Sadly, although we all like to see that as the result of pulling the trigger, it doesn't always happen.
I took the bottom end of the heart out on a bull elk on the first shot, yet he still ran for a couple hundred yards.
It was out in the open, and when he went down, he laid there gasping for air, still trying to get up.
He was on the other side of a waist high river, and the opportunity to put another shot in him was not present from the
position he was in.
Bang, Flop, lights out, is what we try for, and should be at the forefront every time before we pull the trigger.
But, it doesn't always happen.
But again, I wish I could have just walked up and put one behind the ears.


You're right it does not always happen I know that sometimes I don't put the animal down right away and yes the animal does suffer
I think that an animal would feel the pain just like a human would,,many of times I have let bull elk or others walk because I could not
get a decent shot with my bow or rifle better to let them walk then wound them....

[J_T]

However, using an arrow to kill, and compared to the shock implosion of a rifle, when bowhunters 'take' a good shot', (rather than a low percentage marginal shot) and the arrow penetrates well in to the vitals, the animal often doesn't know what happened. A quick double lung, or heart shot will have the animal down and out in 6 seconds. Any other lethal hit will usually result in the animal bedding close by and expiring peacefully if you leave it alone. Animals don't operate on pain and suffering. They operate on survival.

[tomahawk]

However, using an arrow to kill, and compared to the shock implosion of a rifle, when bowhunters 'take' a good shot', (rather than a low percentage marginal shot) and the arrow penetrates well in to the vitals, the animal often doesn't know what happened. A quick double lung, or heart shot will have the animal down and out in 6 seconds. Any other lethal hit will usually result in the animal bedding close by and expiring peacefully if you leave it alone. Animals don't operate on pain and suffering. They operate on survival.

Exactly J_T, when there is no extensive shock busting the frame of the animal the animal isn't suffering. Ive arrowed 2 bull moose with immediate massive blood loss that had no idea I was there and they both moved about 8 yards after impact looking around and then laid down feeling weak and expired peacefully.

[butthead]

go watch a bull fight

[J_T]

go watch a bull fight With so few words, it's hard to understand what you are implying. A bull fight is intended as entertainment. Something very different.

[Walksalot]

Whether it be with an arrow or a bullet, a bad shot is a bad shot. Animals can and do suffer terribly wounded by an arrow. I know of an instance where a deer was wounded on the last day of archery season and was found dead in a yard in the first part of January. Visit a 3D Shoot and watch some of the archers with their chosen tackle. It makes me cringe to think of some of these so called archers in a hunting situation. As hunters we must pass on the high risk to wound shots and stay within our ability to humanely harvest an animal with our chosen weapon. Lets not kid ourselves, killing an animal is nasty business no matter how you slice the Gouda.

[J_T]

Whether it be with an arrow or a bullet, a bad shot is a bad shot. Animals can and do suffer terribly wounded by an arrow. I know of an instance where a deer was wounded on the last day of archery season and was found dead in a yard in the first part of January. Visit a 3D Shoot and watch some of the archers with their chosen tackle. It makes me cringe to think of some of these so called archers in a hunting situation. As hunters we must pass on the high risk to wound shots and stay within our ability to humanely harvest an animal with our chosen weapon. Lets not kid ourselves, killing an animal is nasty business no matter how you slice the Gouda. I don't disagree. I do find it interesting we can have a conversation like this, where we ultimately understand the importance of making a good shot. With any weapon. And yet, we still have these conversations about taking long range shots at animals (because someone can hit an inanimate target at distance) where due to the distance there are factors (branch, wind, animal movement) that may result in a not so perfect kill shot. Know your animal, know when not to shoot, and keep your shots close.

[Rackmastr]

Whether it be with an arrow or a bullet, a bad shot is a bad shot. Animals can and do suffer terribly wounded by an arrow. I know of an instance where a deer was wounded on the last day of archery season and was found dead in a yard in the first part of January. Visit a 3D Shoot and watch some of the archers with their chosen tackle. It makes me cringe to think of some of these so called archers in a hunting situation. As hunters we must pass on the high risk to wound shots and stay within our ability to humanely harvest an animal with our chosen weapon. Lets not kid ourselves, killing an animal is nasty business no matter how you slice the Gouda.

I don't think someone's performance on a 3D range is really worth considering or equating to whether they are a 'so called archer' or you can compare the shots taken to hunting situations. I know when I've shot 3D I've taken shots I'd never even consider in hunting situations, as its a course intended to push people and to be competitive. A hunter can shoot a 3D course and take shots at 50-60 yards at small critters at weird angles, yet in the field they may be totally fine with taking 20 yard broadside shots. Competition isn't hunting, nor can the two be accurately compared as its also a 'fun' event for a lot of people with no real moral or thought process needed in the shot as there are no consequences. People take shots in 3D that they'd never take in the field.

I shoot out to 1200 yards at times with my rifle, and if someone saw my groups on steel they maybe could make the claim that it made them 'cringe' to think that a 'so called shooter' could be in a hunting situation. Reality vs practice/competition can be two separate things entirely and I think that's important to remember as well when looking at the big picture.

[Walksalot]

While I totally agree that 3D shoots are meant to hone our hunting skills and establish a proximity for our ability to administer a killing shot the vast majority of the time in a hunting situation but in some instances, these parameters go south. Knowing ones ability and staying within ones ability is just plain common sense in a hunting situation.

[Walksalot]

Upon reflection it was wrong of me to drag 3D shoots into this discussion. A 3D course is a place to learn and not to be criticized. I apologize for that.

[hawk-i]

ATTENTION: Do not attempt to cut any deer or mooses throat unless it is completely dead.
If it's on the ground after the shot still breathing do not and I repeat do not attempt a throat slice. You could be killed or maimed by a living animal.
Jel -- An antler in the throat or eye BAM just like that. Don't be hasty after the shot puts it down or you know you hit it.

Why would you cut its neck after its dead? or before that matter.

[whitetailsheds]

Why would you cut its neck after its dead? or before that matter.

Hope I got the jist of this....started reading at the end of this thread......you don't have to slit the throat of 3D archery targets!! They're already dead.....don't feel a thing!! No suffering!!

[Jelvis]

Cutting the throat is only needed when the animal was killed and not much blood came out.
If it's a heart shot not needed. Tip animal down hill head down, the blood will come out if the deer is still hot. Pump the back legs and the blood will come out.
If you want to stuff the head don't cut throat. Cape it.
Jel -- I spill the blood on the earth from animals I don't eat blood if I can help it, I mean there's blood in all meat but you can drain it. The bible says do not eat blood but you can eat muscle tissue.

[wideopenthrottle]

Why would you cut its neck after its dead? or before that matter.

slicing the jugulars on animals at an abattoir is required....it is considered to require some skill to do right.
blood in the meat is very undesirable...
some info in this link
http://www.fao.org/docrep/004/t0279e/t0279e04.htm

[835]

slicing the jugulars on animals at an abattoir is required....it is considered to require some skill to do right.
blood in the meat is very undesirable...
some info in this link
http://www.fao.org/docrep/004/t0279e/t0279e04.htm


lots do it lots dont..... cutting the throat is a choice...... i dont, havent and never will...... i have ran this conversation with a few online personalities i trust, some that do and some that dont... came out deadlocked....
one of those campfire conversations that goes on for hours as you drink rye trying to prove the other guy wrong.....

[Dannybuoy]

Why would you cut its neck after its dead? or before that matter.

If you had ever been to a slaughter house OR had any experience with killing animals you wouldn't be asking this .... the amount of blood that drains from the lifeless carcass would surprise you . I almost always cut the throat and get the head downhill unless I want the cape . Think of it as doing it like the professionals .... same with skinning , cutting etc .

[Dannybuoy]

lots do it lots dont..... cutting the throat is a choice...... i dont, havent and never will...... i have ran this conversation with a few online personalities i trust, some that do and some that dont... came out deadlocked....
one of those campfire conversations that goes on for hours as you drink rye trying to prove the other guy wrong.....

Very true !

[Jelvis]

I've gutted more deer than I could remember and the throat has to be cut but the juglar not the esophagus at the time if you do cut it. You will cut the esophagus eventually to bring it back and pull the gut connection to the back bone.
Just make sure you don't get stomach juices from the esophagus when it's cut thru on the meat you want to eat for supper soon.
Jel -- be a semi-pro when shooting accurate and knowing how and what to do to make the venison as delicious as possible for the whole fam damily. Treat the meat for the table.

[cassiarkid]

A good double lung gets rid of a lot of blood!!

[Jelvis]

--- As long as you have your cross hairs in sight with the bore by shooting at a target and knowing it hits where your aiming is the key. A good marksmen who is humane
--- Now you go thru the basics, rifle gripp, trigger squeeze.

--- now when you see deer you want, think? Standing shot position, prone, or against a tree etc quick like but safe and secure
--- get lined up on the shoulder mass in the low center area above the front leg.
--- take a breath let half out focus, tune in and BAM!

--- Now watch reaction of the shot, keep eyes open and see the impact of the bullet
--- observe body language of the deer when hit and what it does after.
--- mark your shot spot
--- reload chamber keep gun in a ready position and start moving in real slow to where you hit the deer.

--- look for deer and or blood and hair and bone chips
--- do not walk all around the spot where you hit it, you look without rushing around and damage the evidence.
--- you had your rifle sighted in, the deer was not moving when you shot and the crosshairs were on target and you got off a good shot behind the shoulder so you will find that deer.
Jelly ( Persistence ) Effort plus time = meat in the fridge and no long suffering for the deer

[hawk-i]

If you had ever been to a slaughter house OR had any experience with killing animals you wouldn't be asking this .... the amount of blood that drains from the lifeless carcass would surprise you . I almost always cut the throat and get the head downhill unless I want the cape . Think of it as doing it like the professionals .... same with skinning , cutting etc .

No Dannybuoy it wouldn't.....I gut the animal as quickly as possible after shooting it....if you open the chest cavity all the blood will drain out. The blood is in the wind pipe and chest cavity NOT in the meat! Geezzz! City boy?

[hawk-i]

If you had ever been to a slaughter house OR had any experience with killing animals you wouldn't be asking this .... the amount of blood that drains from the lifeless carcass would surprise you . I almost always cut the throat and get the head downhill unless I want the cape . Think of it as doing it like the professionals .... same with skinning , cutting etc .

When I worked as a Whitetail guide back in the 80's in Alberta, one would have got laughed out of a job by cutting the throat! :)

[Bugle M In]

Whether it be with an arrow or a bullet, a bad shot is a bad shot. Animals can and do suffer terribly wounded by an arrow. I know of an instance where a deer was wounded on the last day of archery season and was found dead in a yard in the first part of January. Visit a 3D Shoot and watch some of the archers with their chosen tackle. It makes me cringe to think of some of these so called archers in a hunting situation. As hunters we must pass on the high risk to wound shots and stay within our ability to humanely harvest an animal with our chosen weapon. Lets not kid ourselves, killing an animal is nasty business no matter how you slice the Gouda.

This about the best way to put it, in my thought anyways on this entire subject and thread.

[Bugle M In]

lots do it lots dont..... cutting the throat is a choice...... i dont, havent and never will...... i have ran this conversation with a few online personalities i trust, some that do and some that dont... came out deadlocked....
one of those campfire conversations that goes on for hours as you drink rye trying to prove the other guy wrong.....

Exactly like a conversation at the campfire (I guess that is the best way to describe a forum...well done)
My bottle is empty now, so I guess I will turn in and say good nite!

[Paulyman]

They don't suffer they just go to sleep just like in the movies.

[Xenomorph]

I almost always cut the throat and get the head downhill unless I want the cape.

Same here, easy snip, turn animal downhill and have a beer, take your breath, get the knives out and get to work.



When I worked as a Whitetail guide back in the 80's in Alberta, one would have got laughed out of a job by cutting the throat! :)

In those days you were being laughed out of a job if you were wearing long hair, had tattoos or were gay.. wait, then you'd have been beaten most likely. Some do it one way, some the other. We have cut our own livestock since I can remember and old habits just translated into the hunting/butchering practice here. Where I come from you'd always stick the jugular, then skin and butcher.

Are you saying my way is wrong? :) Whatever works for some, won't necessarily work for others.

[Dannybuoy]

When I worked as a Whitetail guide back in the 80's in Alberta, one would have got laughed out of a job by cutting the throat! :)
That's because they would likely be "trophy hunters" and as so would want to keep the cape . Also if you haven't been shown how to do it properly , it can get ugly ....
Like I have said before I was taught to treat game meat just like domestic .... from skinning to cutting , from what I have read on HBC and seen at local meat cutters, I am in the very small minority .

[Dannybuoy]

No Dannybuoy it wouldn't.....I gut the animal as quickly as possible after shooting it....if you open the chest cavity all the blood will drain out. The blood is in the wind pipe and chest cavity NOT in the meat! Geezzz! City boy?

LOL Hmmm Now I wonder whom the city boy is .... of course the blood in the cavity would drain out ..... the blood is in the veins/arteries .....

[Dannybuoy]

Same here, easy snip, turn animal downhill and have a beer, take your breath, get the knives out and get to work.




In those days you were being laughed out of a job if you were wearing long hair, had tattoos or were gay.. wait, then you'd have been beaten most likely. Some do it one way, some the other. We have cut our own livestock since I can remember and old habits just translated into the hunting/butchering practice here. Where I come from you'd always stick the jugular, then skin and butcher.

Are you saying my way is wrong? :) Whatever works for some, won't necessarily work for others.

Sounds right to me !

[butthead]

slicing the jugulars on animals at an abattoir is required....it is considered to require some skill to do right.
blood in the meat is very undesirable...
some info in this link
http://www.fao.org/docrep/004/t0279e/t0279e04.htm

nice info
thanks for that
bookmarked that one

[wideopenthrottle]

no problem...one thing that I noticed in there was about the chances for bacteria to form when blood is present
Bleeding after stunning
The objectives of bleeding are to kill the animal with minimal damage to the carcass and to remove quickly as much blood as possible as blood is an ideal medium for the growth of bacteria.
Sticking, severing the major arteries of the neck, should immediately follow stunning.

[hawk-i]

LOL Hmmm Now I wonder whom the city boy is .... of course the blood in the cavity would drain out ..... the blood is in the veins/arteries .....

the heart has to be pumping to pump out the arteries...once the heart stops cutting the neck is of no use! :)

[hawk-i]

They cut the neck in a slaughter house because the animal is not dead when they do so....the slaughter house I"m familiar with uses a blast of compressed air to the animals ear and then cuts the throat to bleed it out and kill it.

Once its dead cutting the throat will only bleed out what is in the viens close to the cut.

On game animals when shot through the lungs and dead the blood is in the body cavity and wind pipe, cutting the neck and this point is of no use, unless you are removing the head from the animal. :)

[hawk-i]

In those days you were being laughed out of a job if you were wearing long hair, had tattoos or were gay.. wait, then you'd have been beaten most likely. Some do it one way, some the other. We have cut our own livestock since I can remember and old habits just translated into the hunting/butchering practice here. Where I come from you'd always stick the jugular, then skin and butcher.

Are you saying my way is wrong? :) Whatever works for some, won't necessarily work for others.

You don't seem to know much about the 80's either...lol.

Not saying your way is wrong, only unnecessary . :)

[Dannybuoy]

no problem...one thing that I noticed in there was about the chances for bacteria to form when blood is present
Bleeding after stunning
The objectives of bleeding are to kill the animal with minimal damage to the carcass and to remove quickly as much blood as possible as blood is an ideal medium for the growth of bacteria.
Sticking, severing the major arteries of the neck, should immediately follow stunning.

After reading this it occurred to me that the difference between what hawk-I and I are saying is , that it has never been more than 15 or 20 seconds ? after shooting the deer/moose that I have bled it out . ( how long to walk 100 yds ?) So those who are saying its useless .. after a longer period of time it would be .

[hawk-i]

Death from massive blood loss (hemorrhaging), as in massive lung damage occurs in 4 minutes....I guess if you cut the throat within that time frame some blood may drain.

Honestly though, in the big game camps I've been involved with cutting the throat was and is considered a rookie move....take it for what its worth, your mileage may vary. :)

[Dannybuoy]

Death from massive blood loss (hemorrhaging), as in massive lung damage occurs in 4 minutes....I guess if you cut the throat within that time frame some blood may drain.

Honestly though, in the big game camps I've been involved with cutting the throat was and is considered a rookie move....take it for what its worth, your mileage may vary. :)

Totally understandable ... I can just picture some "dude" running up to the downed buck and slicing its throat from ear to ear (probably just thru the hide) after poking the dead critter in the eyeball of course .:lol:

[Muliechaser]

Death from massive blood loss (hemorrhaging), as in massive lung damage occurs in 4 minutes....I guess if you cut the throat within that time frame some blood may drain.

Honestly though, in the big game camps I've been involved with cutting the throat was and is considered a rookie move....take it for what its worth, your mileage may vary. :)

Ive had animals die within 10 seconds of a double lung . A good shit in the vitals bleeds it out pretty good as is .
And as you stated it would only work if it was still alive . Once the heart stops its pointless to "Bleed" a animal.

[Hunterguy]

Can't believe this thread is still getting interest really, if you think they suffer quit hunting! Used to be quality info on this forum but this shit chases everyone who has any knowledge away, sad!

[Dannybuoy]

Can't believe this thread is still getting interest really, if you think they suffer quit hunting! Used to be quality info on this forum but this shit chases everyone who has any knowledge away, sad!
There are some good info threads on this site but there are a lot of goofy ones too ... not sure if the posters are serious or really need meds ?( you know who you are ) Not sure why you singled out this one from the bunch :lol:

[hawk-i]

Ive had animals die within 10 seconds of a double lung . A good shit in the vitals bleeds it out pretty good as is .
And as you stated it would only work if it was still alive . Once the heart stops its pointless to "Bleed" a animal.

You've had animals lose consciousness within 10 seconds....death takes 4 minutes from massive blood loss....clinical fact. :)

[Jelvis]

One thing I do if I want an animal like a deer or moose to go down like a sack of BC Grown potatoes. I go for a spine shot, CRACK! Down, all four legs buckle and drop.
Spine shot, vertebrae dis connector and won't take a step, straight down.
Jelly ( Spine ) dis connection makes for straight drop. Adjust aim on moose because moose have a thick long hairs on top. Aim properly. Study moose anatomy to see where the spine is.

[dellis]

One thing I do if I want an animal like a deer or moose to go down like a sack of BC Grown potatoes. I go for a spine shot, CRACK! Down, all four legs buckle and drop.
Spine shot, vertebrae dis connector and won't take a step, straight down.
Jelly ( Spine ) dis connection makes for straight drop. Adjust aim on moose because moose have a thick long hairs on top. Aim properly. Study moose anatomy to see where the spine is.

But a spine shot still requires a finisher. Unless you hit the spine very close to the skull in which case it's lights out.
A lot of the responses on here show a lack of experience in the field......that's not an insult, as everyone has to start somewhere. But saying that particular setup will render game DRT(dead right there) all the time is not realistic.

I watched over a friends shoulder when he hit a mulie in the shoulder(heart was gone, offside shoulder knuckle was pulverised, lungs were jelly) with a 375 H+H and a 300 grain silvertip. For those that remember this bullet, now discontinued, it was designed to open quickly on light skinned game. I can't imagine any reasonable rifle/ammo combo hitting harder than that did, and shot placement was textbook perfect. The deer did not fall at the shot, but hobbled on three legs for about 10 yards and fell over. was dead when we got to it, but it was not bang flop. Most of the animals I have seen killed that went down immediately were spine hits, and most of those required a follow up shot to close the deal.
Darcy

[Walksalot]

One thing I do if I want an animal like a deer or moose to go down like a sack of BC Grown potatoes. I go for a spine shot, CRACK! Down, all four legs buckle and drop.
Spine shot, vertebrae dis connector and won't take a step, straight down.
Jelly ( Spine ) dis connection makes for straight drop. Adjust aim on moose because moose have a thick long hairs on top. Aim properly. Study moose anatomy to see where the spine is.

While a spine shot will render an animal incapacitated they can still vocalize. A sound which will, if you have compassion for an animal, haunt you.

[J_T]

While a spine shot will render an animal incapacitated they can still vocalize. A sound which will, if you have compassion for an animal, haunt you.No doubt about that.

[Sharpish]

It's the same conversation over and over ... shoot the head or spine so you don't waste meat. A clean boiler shot wrecks the heart and lungs and the animal dies very very quickly and aside from a broken rib or two ZERO wasted meat. I shot a moose and several deer over the last few years and they were all dead within 15 yards of where they were hit. They jump at the impact, run a few yards, feel woozy, stop to take stock of the situation, and fall over dead.

I know guys that have blown the jaws and noses off deer aiming for the head or spine... it's a small target, and tends to move around more than any other part of the animal!

[Jelvis]

I eat moose heart liver and brains with eggs so I ain't shooting the organs out of a moose.
A muley I like liver too.
Hit em where it's a killer shot but less meat and organs to waste.
Study animal anatomy and where to hit what spot for diverse reasons.
If your shooting a record Dall sheep ram your not going for a head shot.
If your going whitetail deer, BOOM! If yah have to. Only if your a Marksman or a crack shot under all conditions and in small windows, otherwise practice shooting and get good.
Then the deer will be happier too knowing that.
Jelly -- ( Robbie ) (Lawler ) -- Flat footed-hands up-chin down and walkin in-- BOOM!

[Apolonius]

I heard before ,some people shoot at the base of the head where it meets the spine.I tried it once and yes it just died,instant,no noise.It was a moose so the target was a bit bigger.Hear lots of guys ,use this shot only.

[Xenomorph]

You've had animals lose consciousness within 10 seconds....death takes 4 minutes from massive blood loss....clinical fact. :)

In all honesty it has been a few bucks that I did that to, but if I go by the statement above, which I agree it's true, then it makes even more sense to poke the jugular and tilt the animal downhill. Most of the BT hunts are up to 50yards shots. Some head, some neck shots, rare occasions you get a nice double lunger or a heart shot. I like to roam around and look for them, I think the longest BT shot I took was 120ish and that was still a neck shot.





You don't seem to know much about the 80's either...lol.

Not saying your way is wrong, only unnecessary . :)

I think I need to apologize for my tone, for whatever ****ed up reason I hate patronizing and that's how your statement came across.

I'm by no means an expert in the '80s, I was barely going upright and taking my first steps come 1980, but I can tell you I remember the old communist regime and how everyone had to hide and processing an animal was done swift and quietly, bonk on head with sledgehammer, cut the jugular. gruesome for some, seriously effective and animal expires quickly.

Anyway, I haven't done it all the time. I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times I've done it, but the situation seemed to favour the poke and I let the knife do the job.

My apologies again for the tone, you didn't deserve it. I must've had something rotten to eat that day.

[Xenomorph]

I heard before ,some people shoot at the base of the head where it meets the spine.I tried it once and yes it just died,instant,no noise.It was a moose so the target was a bit bigger.Hear lots of guys ,use this shot only.

There are several reasons I go for head or neck shots.
1. I'm not the type that shoots everything that moves, if I've noticed the deer, I take the time to become still and ensure the buck is legal and the hit is going to be deadly.
2. I hate spoiling meat, I think it's disrespectful to the animal that lived a free life and gifts the nurture to my family. I make sure to use as much as possible: meat, organs, bones, ribs etc
3. I'm a pretty ****ing awesome shot and I shoot Weatherby rifles. :)

Having said that so far all neck shots were instant death. Double lungs or heart were messy. The bear I shot at 20yards was straight mashed up heart and still ran across the river before tumbling over and expiring.

I think some people will take chances and let the bullets fly. I test my bullets and stick with the one I need for a certain animal. One bullet is all one needs to kill an animal. Patience, self control, respect for the wildlife ..make sure the shot is the one that counts?

[Jelvis]

I know myself I don't like saying, " I tried a neck shot or head shot out loud with anyone until I know the person as a valid hunter. Because some hunters don't like these small delicate targets, two inches off up or down or sideways and a maimed deer sliding down the hill of snow and getting up and running off. Then the chase begins.
Only way I try neck or head is if I go prone or have a rest against a tree with the gun.
Depends on your situation and experience hunting many years in one area.
Shoot only if your as good as a marksmen in shooting targets or very close to it.
You should be able to hit deer in Kamloops area with 30 yard shots and closer sometimes in the bush.
Along a road off the side maybe 25 yards in the bushes.
If your a lousy shot, then practice b4 shooting at a live animule. For the animals sake.
Jelly ( Wild ) Thing

[Apolonius]

Like others said practice and patience ,pays.If you hunt and shoot at an animal,like you are on a fast draw competition,then you are not for the neck shot.Practice mentaly and physicaly....thats how you get to be succesful and control "buck fever".Be cool.Deep breath....slow out

[J_T]

hawk-i. I'm not sure where you found the clinical fact on deadly hemorrhage taking 4 minutes. As a bowhunter who relies on deadly bleeding, with most deadly hits, there is a 6 second death run and the animal is down. Down completely. In some cases, a well placed arrow can put the animal down, on the spot. That's not based on something I read. If you want to give yourself a chance on a high percentage shot, keep your yardage close and know when not to shoot.

Here's a fact. I'm surprised this thread is still alive. It proves the point though, everyone has an opinion.

[greybark]

Any WT or Moose that I doubled lunged with a broadhead did a 6-9 second run then collasped with little or no later thrashing or leg kicking .
Read years ago about a University of Illinois study that stated a double lung hit on WT results in the dash I have witnessed .
Sticking after this only ruines a good cape ....
Cheers

PS: If this thread continues I may be forced post photo`s of my bows . LOL

[Dannybuoy]

Any WT or Moose that I doubled lunged with a broadhead did a 6-9 second run then collasped with little or no later thrashing or leg kicking .
Read years ago about a University of Illinois study that stated a double lung hit on WT results in the dash I have witnessed .
Sticking after this only ruines a good cape ....
Cheers

PS: If this thread continues I may be forced post photo`s of my bows . LOL

Like I said , if keeping the cape obviously don't cut the throat (although it can be done with minimal damage) . The last time I sold a cape to a taxi it was only worth $35 ....hardly worth it and most have an excess unless it is an exceptional cape , not sure what they pay now?

Back to the original post .... Like its been said If you are worried about the critters "feelings " do all your shopping at the grocery store:cry:

[hawk-i]

Any WT or Moose that I doubled lunged with a broadhead did a 6-9 second run then collasped with little or no later thrashing or leg kicking .
Read years ago about a University of Illinois study that stated a double lung hit on WT results in the dash I have witnessed .
Sticking after this only ruines a good cape ....
Cheers

PS: If this thread continues I may be forced post photo`s of my bows . LOL

Yep, I would say posting the pics is always a boost to any thread! :)

[Xenomorph]

Yep, I would say posting the pics is always a boost to any thread! :)

I think our little discussion has revived this thread beyond belief. I second the pic boost, it would be awesome to see quality traditional bows.

[Daybreak]

This has be posted here before but it is a good example of how to bleed an animal out... if you could duplicate it that is. Elk drops like a sack of hammers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrWYuh_s1RQ

[Jelvis]

The best way to help the animal that is sacrificing it's life for you is to (shoot accurate).
Have your one rifle you use year after year. Same good optics with 4 power.
Bausch and Lomb is good for the life of your gun if you take care of it.
--- Use the same bullet your going to use for hunting when you sight in center.
Now -- go to the range or out in the bush put target at 25 yards not 100.
--- Hit bulls eye consistently then move it out to 40 yards. And see the difference.
Go for dead center at a hundred.
--- Once you tried standing shots at 25 and 40 lean against a post and shoot and see the difference with a slight rest for your arms while aiming. Use the nearest tree in the bush.
Do not squeeze your trigger slowly back when standing shooting only prone.
--- When standing on center snap bang!
Almost snap the trigger back holding the rifle firm and steady as you do, on target.
=----> Important -- get as close as possible to the deer b4 shooting if your target is covered a bit..
+++ Shoot deer here in Kammy from 25 to 40 yards in most bush around. If you wanted you could get long shots it's semi-open forest here but if your a lousy shot don't try it for the animals sake.
Jelly with ( Jake Brake) -- get a close deer for now and until you get more experience.
Be as calm as you can, keep control of your rifle when loading. Get a rest.

[Xenomorph]

This has be posted here before but it is a good example of how to bleed an animal out... if you could duplicate it that is. Elk drops like a sack of hammers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrWYuh_s1RQ

Yup, look at the bleeding. Kid kept his cool, what a shot!

[Jelvis]

-- Once the animal has expired it's life the suffering is over. Now you work. Get the blood out. Blood will tend to co ag u late as the blood seeps out of the jugular as the head is down hill.
-- remember you bleed b4 you gut.
-The whole deer slanting down head way first. Slice jugular and keep the bleeding hole from clogging up once and a while. Pump back legs on a moose too.
This meat is for the table so handle it correctly. From pursuit to shot to preparing the carcass for consumption.
Liver you can eat fresh but put liver in a cold water and salt combination and soak in the fridge in a bowl and the salt will draw out most blood after two times or so.
Jelly ( Blood ) Buster