Columbia Blacktail Deer in Region 3?

[Salty]

I'm curious just how far inland Columbia Blacktails range. I've seen a few pretty vague maps on the net but thought it would be interesting to see who here has actually seen them in to region 3. We know Pemberton has an actual Columbia blacktail population as does the Fraser valley surely some of them must live up the canyon in to region 3 or over the hump from Pemby in to 3?

Who here has seen them or better yet taken one in 3 and where? And yes gps coordinates mandatory! ha ha.. j/k but a nearby landmark or such would be useful to help compile this HBC study on inland ranges of BT ;)

[gutpile]

A buddy shot a muley 30 years ago near Cachcreek , it's head looked muley
and tail looked like a blacktail !

[Salty]

Yep the tail tells the tale

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/2012-mule-deer-female.jpg/330px-2012-mule-deer-female.jpg
mule deer ^

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Blacktail.jpg/330px-Blacktail.jpg
Columbia blacktail ^

Wow Cache cr is quite a ways inland wouldn't have expected that. cool.

[ACE]

Have a photo of a Black-tailed buck in velvet ...... mid Manning Park.
Also a Black-tailed doe with a fawn ..... west end of Duffey Lake.

[Stillhunting]

I filled a doe draw up the Nahatlatch about 20 years ago, and she looked like a black-tail. I would be curious to know if anyone has pulled black-tails off the other side of the canyon around Boston Bar.

[scotty30-06]

They say roughly 200 km from the coast....wouldnt be surprised to see hybrid deer much more inland with black tail trates

[Ferenc]

I filled a doe draw up the Nahatlatch about 20 years ago, and she looked like a black-tail. I would be curious to know if anyone has pulled black-tails off the other side of the canyon around Boston Bar.
I've taken a few over by the East Anderson over the years... Guess you could call them a hybrid... Dark tails..small ears... Small mousey facial features.. Once you cross the Alexander bridge puts you into region 3... Turning to the right just after the bridge will also put you into blacktails and perhaps some hybrids

[Salty]

There you go ACE I was wondering about out Princeton way too its not like there's any obstacles that would hold them back from ranging a bit east. And from Duffey its down hill to Lillooet.

Hey Stillhunting that area is part of what got me thinking this I stopped around BB to let the dogs have a break not long ago and saw what looked to me to be classic blacktail sign but pretty hard to tell from just that. Nahat. is just across the river.

[Big Lew]

I shot a really old blacktail buck with an gnarly rack up high in the Anderson Watershed
about 20 years ago. It was in region 3-14 on Serna Peak close to overlooking the Coq.
I hunted that watershed for several years, seeing only mule deer and a bull moose. It was
the only obvious blacktail I ever saw in there and was quite a surprise to me at the time.

[walks with deer]

Seen lots in Boston bar and north of Pemberton.

[Salty]

Was that far enough north to be in R 3 wwd?

[Sitkaspruce]

Shot a buck in Princeton 20 years back that was a "Blacktail" with the black tail and a good rack, took picts to show, but cannot find them right now. He was killed up off Sunday Creek area. Will look again, but back then we called it a hybrid due to the big body, black tail and 3x4 rack......but hey what did we know back then.....

Cheers

SS

[Salty]

Found this interesting, from Wiki re. Columbia BT -

Range

Black-tailed deer once lived at least as far east as Wyoming. In Francis Parkman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Parkman)'s The Oregon Trail, an eyewitness account of his 1846 trek across the early West, while within a two-day ride from Fort Laramie (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Laramie), Parkman writes of shooting what he believes to be an elk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elk), only to discover he has killed a black-tailed deer.[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-tailed_deer#cite_note-12)
The black-tailed deer is currently common in northern California,[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-tailed_deer#cite_note-13) western Oregon, Washington, in coastal and interior British Columbia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Columbia), and north into the Alaskan panhandle. It is a popular game animal.


Taxonomy

Though it has been argued that the black-tailed deer is a species, virtually all recent authorities maintain it as a subspecies of the mule deer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule_deer) (Odocoileus hemionus).[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-tailed_deer#cite_note-iucn-1)[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-tailed_deer#cite_note-MSW3-2)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-tailed_deer#cite_note-Walker-3)[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-tailed_deer#cite_note-hybrid-4)[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-tailed_deer#cite_note-Reid-5)[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-tailed_deer#cite_note-DeerEvolution-6)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-tailed_deer#cite_note-WMNA-7) Strictly speaking, the black-tailed deer group consists of two subspecies, as it also includes O. h. sitkensis (Sitka black-tailed deer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sitka_Deer)).[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-tailed_deer#cite_note-MSW3-2) The black-tailed deer group and the mule deer group (sensu stricto (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensu_stricto)) hybridize (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_(biology)) and appear to have evolved (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution) from the black-tailed deer group.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-tailed_deer#cite_note-DeerEvolution-6) Despite this, the mtDNA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MtDNA) of the white-tailed deer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-tailed_deer) and mule deer are similar, but differ from that of the black-tailed deer.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-tailed_deer#cite_note-DeerEvolution-6) This may be the result of introgression (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introgression), although hybrids between the mule deer and white-tailed deer are rare in the wild (apparently more common locally in West Texas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Texas)), and the hybrid survival rate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_rate) is low even in captivity.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-tailed_deer#cite_note-hybrid-4)[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-tailed_deer#cite_note-DeerEvolution-6)

[.264winmag]

Would be interesting to know which came first, the blacktail or the mulie? Don't remember source but I'm sure I read somewhere that the BT was first and the Mulie a subspecies?
I could buy that, seeing how the BT seems to be a more versatile critter able to flourish, well, anywhere!

[caddisguy]

Lots of BT genetics around Boston Bar on the Region 2 side, Manning area though more so in Region 2 etc. Even Princton is not very far away in the grand scheme of things... might seem like a long car drive but it's really not far to walk.

It's only a half day hike down from Manning to the Chilliwack Mountains on the other side of the Skagit Valley bottom. A good day or day and a half hike from Manning and you could actually be in the official BT zone.

Heck there's whitetail and moose around Chilliwack too... not sure if the whitetail are from the Herling Island herd or if they are all the way from Princeton. BT's moving for migratory purposes and cruising for babes, you can probably pick a spot they are "somewhat common", draw a circle with a 150km radius and half expect them to be anywhere in that circle.

[ACB]

I shot a beauty 4x4 easily 20 years ago around the east side of the Fraser R. by Boston Bar that was full blacktail, blacktail head and tail. He has 4-5 inch brow tines. I'm pretty sure he would have been a B.C. book deer, but alas wrong side of the tracks. The same year a buddy of mine shot one that might have scored better in the same local but it's head was more muley with blacktail tail.

[Salty]

Its messed up that they'd use a river as a boundary for a deer's range especially blacktail they swim big time. I've seen them in the salt water just givin er quite a ways from shore more than once even in 3 foot chop. They could make it across the Fraser even in the canyon in lots of places.

[ACE]

Would be interesting to know which came first, the blacktail or the mulie? Don't remember source but I'm sure I read somewhere that the BT was first and the Mulie a subspecies?
I could buy that, seeing how the BT seems to be a more versatile critter able to flourish, well, anywhere!

Mule and Black-tailed Deer of North America ....... A wildlife Management Institute Book, compiled and edited by Olaf C. Wallmo
ISBN 0-8032-4715-X

This book was recommended to me by a biologist (now retired) that worked for 'The Fish & Wildlife Branch' of British Columbia ...
Explains what you've mentioned above ..... that the Whitetail was the 'mother' species, and the Black-tailed deer morphed from that ....
Excellent book if you can find it ....... might try Powell's down in Oregon, they carry an amazing amount of books.

A lot of folks refer to the Mule deer as a 'blacktail' in the mid-west ....
Interesting thread ..

[Salty]

http://www.amazon.com/Mule-Black-tailed-Deer-North-America/dp/080324715X


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xFmGW-6nL._SX377_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

[ACE]

That's the one ....
Going to get it ?

[.264winmag]

Ah ya that's what is was, the wt first.

[Salty]

I think i might get it ACE ..

[StoneHorse]

I tried purchasing this book from Amazon.com but got a message saying it was export restricted, WTF?

[guest]

Bagged a few over the years, solid brown-black tails, big bodied, compact knarly racks. Both in areas around Boston Bar and Darcy .

[Salty]

Thanks everyone for the sighting and bagging info like I thought quite a few sightings and harvests into the Thompson region. keep'm coming if there's more out there interesting stuff.

Yeah I gave up on AmazonUS too StoneHorse I'll look for that book closer to home.

[TyTy]

I've seen some hybrid features in 3-15, and seen what I would consider full blooded blacktail east of the Lillooet River too. In my experiences, the hybrids start in region 2.

Both these bucks shot on the same hill side within a kilometer of each other.

Hybrid

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Hybrid_Tail.jpg


Full blown mulie

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Mulie_Tail.jpg



What I figure is a hybrid doe. Had a fawn with her. Big body, shorter legs, shorter ears.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Hybrid_Doe.jpg

[Salty]

Awesome TyTy there's some sound evidence on the hybrid situation, only a k apart very cool. I'm going to throw up my blacktail pic again poached off the net and yours of the hybrid for a good comparison-

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Blacktail.jpg/330px-Blacktail.jpg
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Hybrid_Tail.jpg

[TyTy]

That's a good comparison. I think that a blacktail's entire tail is black, all the way up to where it meets the rump. The B&C line for the BT is pretty accurate I think, and I believe it was established to weed out any potential hybrids. You might find blacktails up into the Cascades, but I would figure that would be the exception.

Big body size difference in those two bucks as well. I would guess that hybrid @ 3 yrs old, and was definitely smaller than the mulie I would guess @ 2 years old.

[walks with deer]

Sorry yes definetly region 3...Blacktails

[Salty]

OK so we're hearing of blacktails in to region 3 pretty much all along the region 2/3 boundary which I guess, shouldn't be too suprising.

Pulled a trail cam yesterday that'd been out for quite a while. Here's a decent pic of the south end of an island CBT doe to add to the mix.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c242/Salty303/bt%20doe_zpscrnz65o1.jpg

[andrewscag]

The Steven Rinella complete hunting guide that just came out has a paragraph on bt genetics. He says mule deer are hybrids of black tail and white tail if memory serves. I still have it out from the library so I'll check when I get back and look at his references.