East Kootenays ecosystem restoration

[Elkchaser]

Well - hope I'm not opening too big a can of worms here, but I think the risk is worth it. I'm hoping to learn (and maybe others too) what hunters of the EK have to say about ecosystem changes they've seen over the years, and their thoughts going forward. I'm starting to get a working understanding of current restoration efforts happening now - it's part of my job and I moved to the EK last spring. I'm hoping the conversation can be kept on topic - that is ecosystems, not predators or people or companies or government. From previous references to habitat on different posts I've read, I know there are lots of opinions and many decades of experience. Absolutely no agenda here, just trying to expand my own thoughts/considerations around ecosystem restoration.

[rocksteady]

You want it burnt??? You know where my desk is...

[BgBlkDg]

Any given "ecosystem" will and does change, often radically as time passes. The EK is not and has not been "virgin" for about a century and a half.

So, any "restoration" efforts are really just tinkering with the serial progression of a given area and this is usually to obtain a specific social goal, ie, more Elk, fewer "weed" species to compete with "merchantable" species of trees or other such changes.

I prefer to see any industrial or other human activity conducted from the outset in a manner which will disturb the original ambience as little as possible instead of relying on "restoration" efforts and I also prefer large changes such as big burns to be left for "natural regen." rather than restorative silviculture.

[elknut]

With you BgBlkDg...They have to leave the " Weeds ".....It's the feed for the animals..They can literally sterilize an area for many years..New Brunswick has an ongoing discussion on what the Forest companys have done to habitat...They kill all the under growth then it doesn't support wildlife ..then they say they can clearcut for timber ..cause there is no wildlife loss..Real catch 22...There moose and deer numbers are down and they have discovered this silvaculture flaw...A forest after logging has to regenerate naturally...But of course this doesn't help the forest companys and Govt revenue ..We have to be the squeaky wheel ..Dennis

[Elkchaser]

Thanks bgblkdg and elknut - just for context I'm going to add a bit of info. The ER program, generally, is trying to return trench areas back to an ecosystem that isn't about timber, technically called open range and open forest. Can't compare this to managed forest where timber production is the goal (and in bc the law post harvesting on that landbase, unlike what we're doing in the trench). Got my edumacation in NB - I know what your referring too elknut, valid concern. Locally, current markets/prices are allowing company's to log trench areas creating substantial area of open forest. As rocksteady snuck in above, the program also tries to burn areas in spring and fall when 'safe', but resources and operational burn windows limit burnable hectares/year. Fire was historically common in the trench, allowing grass leading ecosystems to not be choked out by tree in growth.

Back in the 70's-80's (and earlier), post logging regeneration requirements were different than the past 27 years. Hoping some folks that have been in these parts for awhile could enlighten me on some local history - some of that old time logging, without legal regeneration requirements, is what a bunch of this current trench logging is doing. How did those areas turn out, in your hunter/conservationist opinion?

[BgBlkDg]

Excuse me, I am a member of one of the founding, pioneer Kootenay families, was accepted into the BCFS in April, 1965, studied ecology, etc. under B.E.C Fraser, BSC- (Hons), PHD-UBC, under Krajina and am rather familiar with the area, etc.

I am too busy this evening to debate this here, but, my basic premise is scientifically and socially correct.

[wiggy]

Excuse me, I am a member of one of the founding, pioneer Kootenay families, was accepted into the BCFS in April, 1965, studied ecology, etc. under B.E.C Fraser, BSC- (Hons), PHD-UBC, under Krajina and am rather familiar with the area, etc.

I am too busy this evening to debate this here, but, my basic premise is scientifically and socially correct.

Dig it; with you all the way. Light er up. Total bs the way its all being handled. Idiots telling idiots telling us.

[Elkchaser]

Bgblkdg - I said thanks and I did mean that. Wasn't trying to be condescending in explaining what's happening right now (some folks might not know) and I'm not disagreeing with anything you said. My apologies if taken differently. Just hoping to widen my understanding of EK ecology through local, long term observations. Too bad this went sideways, thought it might was hoping it wouldn't. Take care and merry Christmas.

[Bugle M In]

Well, a few years back, there was a wicked windstorm thru the entire South Eastern BC.
It was when sadly a young boy was killed from a falling tree somewhere in Grand Fork area??
Anyways, the windfall that happened from that event was insane...I mean insane.
Travel corridors along the river basin was completely littered in trees.
Passage by even a squirrel would have been hard in some spots.
These were trail and corridors the Elk used for years, as far back as I remember.
Even regular wallows were impossible to get at, and stopped being used as a result.
Almost impossible to even get to the river, the windfall was everywhere and still is a problem.
From that point on, there is very little sign of elk in that watershed.
Not sure why or if it is related, but I am only saying what have seen and my thought on it.
Than came the Flooding and washouts....
Didn't help, but I don't think that changed things much, as the falling years, as the river rises in the winter,
many trees washed away again, and the river will clean itself up in several more seasons, if it stays the same.
As for logging, there wasn't any at the time when I started, and elk seemed to be around.
Than logging began, and the elk seemed to like "some" of those spots better.
One spot in particular, held elk in it for about 12 seasons, but now it abandoned and the cut right next to it should
hold elk but doesn't???? I can't figure that out....makes no sense.
But a blow torch and the wind blowing in the right direction would help......it's crossed my mind, as it has with
many who hunt there or guide as well.
Lack of snow fall, thus lack of "new slides" is also very obvious, as years ago, the were piles of elk in all those slides
and not a clearcut in sight.
But with all the clearcuts, almost up at the point where some slides would occur, there still isn't elk, and you would
think these cutblocks would simulate a slide in a way....but they don't...not there.
I never liked the change in logging practice, not sure when it happened, late 80's or mid 90's, when they didn't need to
clean up the cutblocks like they once did.....messy as shit now in some places.
But, what seems different or can I say unnatural, is the replanting.
After a fire, it takes some time for those small pines etc to take root and start to grow.
And the spacing is random and to some effect more patchy, with clusters here and there at first.
Now, they just come in and plant every few feet, all on the same few days.
I know that they are trying to restore what was there ASAP, with all the trees growing back to look just like before,
but it doesn't end up looking like it did before, with green grasses and the openings to travel thru....IMO.
It just never looks the same, or maybe it takes years for some trees to beat out the other ones, so that some
die off....not sure how to explain it, as I am not a forester.
And yes, this valley did have a fire in it some 100 years ago now, but hasn't happened.
And, as far as logging, to many access roads....to many ignore signs.
And the burns generally too small.
I think the Kootenay Crossing Restoration burn was a much better attempt at getting things right.
Did it help???? I have no idea, I am waiting to hear.
If that didn't help for years to come in that area, than I think we are in big trouble with the elk in that area
of the trench.
I hope I understood the thread properly, and posted atleast a thought on what is going wrong.
But as stated, I am not to include predation as a problem.
But habitat restoration would be my first option, especially after all windfall, that watershed is completely different now,
and not what I remember it being like for the 30 years before that storm....maybe the lack of elk was just a
coincidence, and not related at all, but it sure changed the landscape...IMO