Site C - Has anyone seen this?

[Rob Chipman]

From the Globe and Mail:


" In the Peace River Valley, where the Site C dam will flood prime moose habitat, the government proposes to help the moose not through habitat improvement, but by restricting hunting. In wildlife regulations just posted for public comment, the government proposes to shut non-native hunters out of the Peace-Moberly Tract, which covers more than 100,000 hectares".

"A Ministry of Forests briefing document obtained by The Globe and Mail shows the province proposes to invest $115-million in the plan."

I'm curious if anyone knows if the referenced documents are online somewhere. I can't find them. I've tried to contact Hume to see if he can point me to the documents as well. Anyone else have any luck?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/bcs-wildlife-policy-skirts-issue-of-habitat-loss-due-to-logging/article27435434/

[two-feet]

Good sweet jesus, a kick in the nards for hunters with a price tag of 115 mil in tax payer dollars?

[leadpillproductions]

Yup herd its comin

[boxhitch]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?122456-Moose-Hunting-Restrictions-Site-C&highlight=moberly
no new links for info though.

[180grainer]

The only thing I've heard recently is that a local contractor has gotten a 1.5 BILLION dollar contract out of the Site C construction bid. The transient population in FSJ is about to go ******, (pardon the pun).

[Goose]

Dont even want to think of who gets to still hunt these areas. The RH are getting kicked out. What about the GO's? They still get 15+ tags a year each?

[lovemywinchester]

I know a BIOLOGIST that has been working on this. Feed the natives first. Get used to it.

[Backwoods]

Went river boating up the peace on Sunday, wow have they ever destroyed a lot of prime land, it's sad!!! I'll try and post a few pics!!! All construction came to a stop when we passed by like they are doing something wrong, pieces of equipment digging in the river, building a temporary bridge possibly with all the piles they are putting in!!!

[Bugle M In]

Anyone there ever heard of advancement in "Solar Power" or...
even "Wind Generators"????????????????????????
Incredible how stone age all these "university graduates" are.
You would think they would develop stuff that would have less impact now days,
Than to just flood areas, which is always lowland and often prime habitat, and if
not, most likely prime winter range...
Piss me off...
The more people we bring in, the more things cost us to keep up.
Expanding populations does not reduce costs by producing larger tax base!!
It's the opposite....more people, more infrastructure needed, more taxes to pay for it.

[boxhitch]

http://www.theprovince.com/life/


First Nations pours cold water over government's Site C dam hunting offer The B.C. government is proposing to increase moose-hunting for a Peace Region First Nation to compensate for impacts of the Site C dam.
For the First Nation and others concerned about the $8.8-billion hydroelectric project which this month marked 100 days of construction, the moose meat in question is one item on a list of Site C-related controversies disturbing the Peace.
The B.C. government will propose changes to moose-hunting regulations, in order “to compensate for Site C-related impacts” in the Peace-Moberly Tract (PMT), a 107,000-hectare swath of land south of the Peace River.
But a representative of the local First Nation said the government is “just shoving this accommodation at us” without proper consultation.
“Having it tied to compensation from Site C is ridiculous,” said Naomi Owens, Saulteau First Nations treaty and land use director, adding she thinks the project will have a “brutal” impact on traditional hunting and fishing territories.
“I don’t agree with that. Our Lands department doesn’t support habitat loss,” Owens said.
“They’re just shoving this accommodation at us, and they haven’t even done proper consultation with our community.”
Owens said opinion in the Saulteau community on the Site C project is divided, with some supporting its employment opportunities and others opposed because of environmental concerns.
She said her community has already been “overwhelmed” with industrial and resource development in the region, even before Site C, and they have appealed to the government for decades to make regulatory changes to “preserve the dwindling moose populations” and ensure Aboriginal hunters’ traditional and constitutional rights to hunt moose, a vital food source.
A document outlining the government’s proposal to restrict moose harvesting for non-Aboriginal hunters says the tract is “an area of significant cultural importance for the Saulteau and other Treaty 8 First Nations.”
The proposal is based on recommendations from the panel that conducted Site C’s environmental assessment, said a spokeswoman for the Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations.
“The main objective of the Panel’s recommendation,” she added, “is to compensate for Site C-related impacts occurring within the PMT by restricting licensed hunting opportunity in favour of those holding Section 35 (Aboriginal hunting) rights.”
Consultation with First Nations was also at issue in a legal challenge this week in B.C. Supreme Court in Victoria, where Treaty 8 Tribal Association members appeared in court seeking an order quashing Site C work permits.
According to the petition filed by Treaty 8 members, the government issued the permits “in breach of the Crown’s duty to consult with and accommodate the petitioners.”
On Thursday, Amnesty International weighed in on the issue. In an open letter to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and B.C. Premier Christy Clark, Amnesty’s secretary general called for an “immediate halt” to construction, citing concerns about “the violations of Indigenous peoples’ human rights that would result from the construction of the Site C dam.”
Katrine Conroy, NDP MLA for Kootenay West, criticized the government’s decision to approve Site C construction in the face of so much uncertainty, including tensions around moose-hunting and ongoing legal challenges.

“To just go ahead with that, without ensuring you’ve done due diligence with the First Nations, it’s questionable,” Conroy said. “It’s putting the cart before the horse.”
On Tuesday, the leader of Conroy’s party, John Horgan, said he would not rule out cancelling Site C if the NDP wins the 2017 provincial election. But Energy Minister Bill Bennett said Horgan’s comments were “naive and surprising.”
By the end of next year, billions of dollars worth of contracts will have been awarded, Bennett told The Province, adding: “To indicate you’re prepared to somehow or other cancel all those contracts, lay all those people off, tell everybody working there they no longer have a job, is astonishing.”
Nearly 800 people are working on the project now, Bennett said, and it’s expected to create 10,000 jobs over the next decade.
Doug Janz, a retired B.C. government biologist, said the proposed moose-hunting changes in the Peace Region, if implemented next year, “would be a significant impact to local, resident hunters, but this could be really a lot more than that, in terms of a precedent for other areas.”
“They’re trying to appease a local First Nation by reducing opportunity for residents (non-Aboriginal hunters),” he said. “We should be looking at increasing the moose population, not dividing a shrinking piece of the pie.”
Brian Churchill, a former government biologist in the Peace Region, said he thinks the proposed changes are “just the first of a bunch to come.”
dfumano@theprovince.com
twitter.com/fumano (http://twitter.com/fumano)





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[squamishhunter]

The powers not for us.

[Rob Chipman]

Thanks for that link Boxhitch.

[Sharpish]

It's harder on the environment to build 1000 small run of river projects to replace site C. Or perhaps everyone should be felling trees and chopping firewood to heat their homes ? That would surely be better for the ecosystem as a whole. And while we sit snug in our homes we don't need to concern ourselves with economic expansion that requires energy that provides careers and money and mortgaged houses for new young families who pay taxes that will find your healthcare costs and everything else we slurp up while complaining it's not free. Pick your poison. Hydro, coal, wind, nuclear, natural gas. I choose site C

[Cyrus]

wonder if we will be even allowed to hunt as resident hunters say 10 yrs from now...unless we pay for an animal or a guide in some designated area...

[goatdancer]

I read an article last week that said the local native band had rejected the plan.

[180grainer]

Went river boating up the peace on Sunday, wow have they ever destroyed a lot of prime land, it's sad!!! I'll try and post a few pics!!! All construction came to a stop when we passed by like they are doing something wrong, pieces of equipment digging in the river, building a temporary bridge possibly with all the piles they are putting in!!!

They are doing something wrong. But they probably stopped because of security reasons. Certain percentage of them are nervous given the emotions about what's going on and the shooting in Dawson. The BC government is ramming this through. No question. Crusty wants to be able to say she created a bunch of jobs next election. The boom bust cycle of employment is not the answer in the long run....but it's hard to tell that to someone out of work.

[KodiakHntr]

It's harder on the environment to build 1000 small run of river projects to replace site C. Or perhaps everyone should be felling trees and chopping firewood to heat their homes ? That would surely be better for the ecosystem as a whole. And while we sit snug in our homes we don't need to concern ourselves with economic expansion that requires energy that provides careers and money and mortgaged houses for new young families who pay taxes that will find your healthcare costs and everything else we slurp up while complaining it's not free. Pick your poison. Hydro, coal, wind, nuclear, natural gas. I choose site C

of course you pick Site C. You live in Victoria. You don't live here.

[Surrey Boy]

Site C is not economically viable, long-term. That's why it wasn't built in the 70s.

This dam has come up every so often since before I joined HBC. The same little side issues get argued about, but most seem ignorant of the core flaws.

[Backwoods]

of course you pick Site C. You live in Victoria. You don't live here.
I was going to say the same thing!!!

[Monashee]

would be interesting to know the lifespan of the dam . It will silt up and become unusable eventually leaving behind prime topsoil several meters thick for people in the next century to deal with .

After reading the info at the link below it is a terrible idea

www.bcwi.ca

[Backwoods]

The dust storms from the silt off the banks on Williston lake are terrible, the banks constantly collapsing into the lake with trees is un real, I can't imagine what the peace river bank well look like in the future and also the people living in old fort well have to deal with the endless dust. The river down steam of the construction is muddy waters now and won't change, all of our fishing holes down steam have gone to shit already!!! And it's just started!!! And even worst, from what I hear there are a ton of local heavy equipment operators laid off not working on one of the largest projects going on!!! Hydro has over sea investors which wouldn't invest in the 70's because it wasn't profitable back then bit now being a 9billon dollar project they are all for it!! Doesn't sound like the money from profit well even stay in BC let alone canada! Yah project creats work, but local BC residents laid off on unemployment... A few upgrades to mica dam could creat the same amount off power as site c for a cheaper cost!!

[finngun]

Mica dam has been through big upgrades work ( new turbines etc.) last couple years,,lots of workers been there few years ..
I don,t think there is more rooms for make it bigger ,,......f-g

[brutus]

how many of the guys complaining work in the oil industry???????.but no the oil industry does not ruin the enviroment *****.

[brutus]

It's harder on the environment to build 1000 small run of river projects to replace site C. Or perhaps everyone should be felling trees and chopping firewood to heat their homes ? That would surely be better for the ecosystem as a whole. And while we sit snug in our homes we don't need to concern ourselves with economic expansion that requires energy that provides careers and money and mortgaged houses for new young families who pay taxes that will find your healthcare costs and everything else we slurp up while complaining it's not free. Pick your poison. Hydro, coal, wind, nuclear, natural gas. I choose site Ci am with you on this one,waiting for work to start and moving up there

[Surrey Boy]

how many of the guys complaining work in the oil industry???????.but no the oil industry does not ruin the enviroment *****.

I work in upstream petroleum, and I'm a former resident of Fort St. John.

My objection to Site C isn't environmental, it's economical.

I can't see how there's a cognitive dissonance on my part.

My father and grandfather were staunch opponents to the damming and flooding of the Columbia Trench. It wasn't because it got flooded and killed all the plants and animals, it was that the BC gov't slashed and burned old growth forests that could've been logged at great profit. There were millions of man-hours in high-paying jobs that were abandoned because they wouldn't wait to flood the reservoir. I know there was a deal with the US regarding Grand Coulee, but it was poorly and crookedly arranged.

[brutus]

I work in upstream petroleum, and I'm a former resident of Fort St. John.

My objection to Site C isn't environmental, it's economical.

I can't see how there's a cognitive dissonance on my part.

My father and grandfather were staunch opponents to the damming and flooding of the Columbia Trench. It wasn't because it got flooded and killed all the plants and animals, it was that the BC gov't slashed and burned old growth forests that could've been logged at great profit. There were millions of man-hours in high-paying jobs that were abandoned because they wouldn't wait to flood the reservoir. I know there was a deal with the US regarding Grand Coulee, but it was poorly and crookedly arranged.
in a perfect world we would not need energy(electricity,oil,natural gas logging,coal and the list goes on)but unfortunately we do at a cost to the environment,take away all the jobs associated with all those industry and we has canadiens would be a third world country.its just aggravating to listen to people rant about it,most people that do bitch about it are related to those industry in one way or another,are we willing to give up our fancy trucks,boats,house,hunting gear and so on to save floading one valley????????? most would not.site C is going for sure, people bitch all they want its not going to change nothing.i myself looking forward to it as that is solid work for thousands of guys for 8 years

[Xenomorph]

are we willing to give up our fancy trucks,boats,house,hunting gear and so on to save floading one valley????????? most would not.

I would for sure, furthermore, I'm all for walkaround not truck around the bush. Less pressure on animals = more animals, more "hunting" experience. I'd rather use a horse, spike camps and live of the land instead of ****ing up that land for us and future generations.

[Surrey Boy]

in a perfect world we would not need energy(electricity,oil,natural gas logging,coal and the list goes on)but unfortunately we do at a cost to the environment,take away all the jobs associated with all those industry and we has canadiens would be a third world country.its just aggravating to listen to people rant about it,most people that do bitch about it are related to those industry in one way or another,are we willing to give up our fancy trucks,boats,house,hunting gear and so on to save floading one valley????????? most would not.site C is going for sure, people bitch all they want its not going to change nothing.i myself looking forward to it as that is solid work for thousands of guys for 8 years

How is that a logical response to my post? I already said I don't care about the valley, that my caveat is economical - as in Site C will end up as a financial liability rather than an asset. The BC Liberal version of Fast Ferries.

[Farmer001]

A known fact is that BC'rs are one of the biggest consumer of electricity in the country(because it is cheaper). To make electricity you either dam a river or burn fossil fuel. Wind/sun/tidal is available but not as reliable and not on demand and not sure about you but sure do not want a nuclear plant anywhere near me. Talk about ruining things for the future. Hydro can store energy like a large battery therefore can be sold when prices are higher therefore making it very viable in todays energy market. If you wanted a sure stock investment the one thing you can count on is that people need electricity and the demand is increasing everyday. To own a power producer is owning a golden goose. Look up kemano completion project, it is one of the most efficient power producers in the world. Probably will be completed when power prices go a bit higher and the government gets a bigger piece of the pie. Hydro plants do not ruin landscapes, change ABSOLUTELY. Displaced people hopefully are well compensated. Once completed Site C power will probably still be making electricity for my grandkids long after I am gone and produce less emissions than my diesel truck will burn in my lifetime. Have been involved in utilities and a 50 yr old hydro plant is way more environmental friendly than your modern gas/coal burning plant. I feel privileged to live in a province that hydro power is a option. Just my 2 bits

[kagia]

I agree. The idea of wind and solar is good, but they come with their own set of problems, and at this stage they are still not a viable option yet.

[180grainer]

A known fact is that BC'rs are one of the biggest consumer of electricity in the country

Can you provide some info on that?

[180grainer]

The fact is, that the electricity produced by Site C will be sold to the US. The profits of which will go to who? What, BC'rs will get a discount on their electricity usage because of this? You believe that? Your tax dollars are being spent here with no signed agreement as to the kick back to the tax payer on profits made.....if it makes a profit.

[xandra]

"Peace Region Proposed Wildlife Regulation Change for 2016 - 2018"
http://nprg.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Peace-Moberly-Tract-Regulation-Proposals.pdf

[ODDBALL]

Just a thought but google using electricity to heat oil sands then look up grosmont formation

[ODDBALL]

bets on same off shore investors involved in site C as big oil "AGAIN NO LUBE R REACH AROUND"

[jg]

I love this hunting site.....

[Ambush]

The fact is, that the electricity produced by Site C will be sold to the US. The profits of which will go to who? What, BC'rs will get a discount on their electricity usage because of this? You believe that? Your tax dollars are being spent here with no signed agreement as to the kick back to the tax payer on profits made.....if it makes a profit.

And that is the part that really makes me mad!! My energy rates have gone up to finance this project and yet I don't own it, nor will I receive any kickback when it's up and running. The electricity will make it's way to the states. And they will pay less for it than I do.

California had a brutal heat wave several years ago, that sent their power usage way up do to air conditioning. We supplied a lot of what they needed. After the fact, they decided that we ripped them off by charging them the going rate that their US suppliers were charging them. As-per contract!!

They could have just not bought it. But instead, we just took it up the reservoir and forgave $475 million. And it will just be the same all over.

If there is no economic benefit to all BC'ers and and there are environmental drawbacks, then what is the incentive?

And "White man can't hunt Moose" is only the beginning of the giveaways to "lubricate" the progress.

[ACE]

Site C ..... will this be changed to the 'Site CC' in honour of our wonderful Premier ?
Getting more than a little tired of her horseshit ....

[brutus]

was not intended for u in particular,just in general.billions of dollar to build the dam all going in to our economie is a good thing,worry about financial liability when it happens
\

[corywilson13]

250' tall wind turbine generates 1.5 megawatts per hour. Water turbines in the Bennett dam produce between 260 and 310 megawatts per hour. The Bennett dam has 10. I've hunted between the Bennett dam and site c area, beautiful country. Lived in Hudson hope while working on upgrades at the dam. It's unfortunate that the land must be covered in water, and I do feel sorry for the locals who will experience this firsthand. Decisions like this project are necessary to keep our province ahead of the electrical consumption demands that our industries and highly populated cities require.

[albravo2]

250' tall wind turbine generates 1.5 megawatts per hour. Water turbines in the Bennett dam produce between 260 and 310 megawatts per hour. The Bennett dam has 10. I've hunted between the Bennett dam and site c area, beautiful country. Lived in Hudson hope while working on upgrades at the dam. It's unfortunate that the land must be covered in water, and I do feel sorry for the locals who will experience this firsthand. Decisions like this project are necessary to keep our province ahead of the electrical consumption demands that our industries and highly populated cities require.

Very sensible. You can start posting more than once a year now.

[40incher]

Let the hunt begin ... the day Indians can hunt and fifth and sixth-generation resident hunters can't!!! Well, let's just say Robin Hood will be reincarnated!

Good luck there Crispy ... even the Indians can see through your divisive manipulations to rape and pillage the land while throwing around some beads and trinkits.

Can't wait for the BC election when all the shit starts running downhill towards our little bobble head/talking head "bits" (that's Indian tongue for b***h).

Klahowya ... Anyways!



wonder if we will be even allowed to hunt as resident hunters say 10 yrs from now...unless we pay for an animal or a guide in some designated area...

[Ltbullken]

What prime habitat are they talking about?! Are the moose inhabiting the valley? Is it that critical? Maybe, but the studies have shown that they seem to be wintering and summering more in the agricultural areas and in the willow flats and swamps higher up on the benchlands in that area. Is this a red herring to distract and offer up some sacrifice to look like the government is taking care of concerns to gain more acceptance from the mainstream? Anyone?

[Ltbullken]

The dust storms from the silt off the banks on Williston lake are terrible, the banks constantly collapsing into the lake with trees is un real, I can't imagine what the peace river bank well look like in the future and also the people living in old fort well have to deal with the endless dust. The river down steam of the construction is muddy waters now and won't change, all of our fishing holes down steam have gone to shit already!!! And it's just started!!! And even worst, from what I hear there are a ton of local heavy equipment operators laid off not working on one of the largest projects going on!!! Hydro has over sea investors which wouldn't invest in the 70's because it wasn't profitable back then bit now being a 9billon dollar project they are all for it!! Doesn't sound like the money from profit well even stay in BC let alone canada! Yah project creats work, but local BC residents laid off on unemployment... A few upgrades to mica dam could creat the same amount off power as site c for a cheaper cost!!

Mica dam and the number of turbines it can carry is subject to the Columbia River Treaty. Not as easy as solution as suggested?

[GoatGuy]

Here's what happened when williston went in:

https://www.bchydro.com/pwcp/pdfs/reports/pwfwcp_report_no_001.pdf


It has been estimated that loss of critical winter habitat, drownings, and more subtle (less direct) effects of the hydro development resulted in a moose population reduction, in the entire WillistonBasin, of from about 12,500 animals pre-flooding to less than 4000 afterward (Bonar 1975). A further, relatively quick reduction to "around 2000" over-wintering animals has been hypothesized, due primarily to the effects of expanding local forestry operations--possibly compounded by the effects of flooding on timber supply. As suggested by MOE (1982), "With the high committment of remaining timber, there are little or no opportunities for integrated forest management to protect the remaining moose population."

[GoatGuy]

Normally when we put in a new dam it goes through the BC Utilities Comission. The government skipped that step and politicians unilaterally decided. The dam is being built to provide cheap power (at discounted rates) for LNG.

So BC is on the hook for a dam, and is providing subsidized power for LNG.

This isn't about 'energy for BC', it's about doing everything to ensure we can sell LNG even if it costs BC more then it benefits.

[Ride Red]

http://www.energybc.ca/profiles/largehydro.html

[Grumpa Joe]

A known fact is that BC'rs are one of the biggest consumer of electricity in the country(because it is cheaper).

According to 2014 Stats Canada BC has the 3rd lowest electrical consumption rate of all the provinces.

All energy production projects have impacts on the environment aside from the simple visuals. Silvaculture, agriculture and fish and wildlife habitat are impacted not only in the area that the project is constructed but also throughout the region, in this case up and downstream.

Will we need the electricity eventually? Yes. Is Site C the best alternative? Questionable. The complaint of many, including myself, is that the government circumvented the process to force this through to power their LNG pipe-dream. LNG revenues to the BC government over 27 years is projected at between $130 ad $180 million dollars. A huge way from the estimated $7.9 billion cost of Site C.

This is similar to the northern power transmission project that was initially budgeted at around $395 million and ended up costing $734 million dollars to essentially power the Red Chris mine (A.K.A. Imperial Metals, as in Mount Polley Mine). Paid for by the taxpayers of the province for the benefit of a private enterprise. It would take a lot of tax revenue to reimburse that amount of money. Imperial Metals reported a loss for the last three quarters of $61 million. They won't be paying any taxes any time soon.

[Sitkaspruce]

Sadly all the islands that have been/will be logged are prime calving grounds for elk and moose in the June. The water keeps most preds at bay until they move out. Even though it will take another 3-5 years until the dam is actually built, the elk/deer/moose lost their calving grounds already and that's just the beginning.

Cheers

SS

[Farmer001]

Lots of good information on here and I stand corrected in reference to BCrs' as being the biggest energy consumer, we are #3 and #5 in reports depending where you look. It is Canada that has the biggest consumer as per a few reports and this one http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/average-household-electricity-consumption. LNG plants can produce there own power for their site, depending on the location if they wish but their gas burning generators will burn more fuel in 24 hrs than you home will burn in a lifetime. Energy is a money making business, just look at who started a lot of the IPP's in the province. Might see a lot of ex BC Hydro personnel on that list. BC Hydro sells power when it is expensive and buys when it is cheap. Therefore the next graph reflects this but does not show the profit they make. http://www.energymanitoba.org/exp-imp_can_neb.htm. Hate to say it but Hydro power is as cheap and green as you are going to get for big dependable storable power. Would hate to be like china with all the smog. Big business needs even bigger opposition to make sure they do things with others in mind. So write letters and voice opinions. At least they cannot put the juice on a boat and ship across the world. Our grandkids will still have it and hopefully build better things than we will with it.